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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Congressmen Push for Completion of Border Fence; Washington Paralyzed Over Immigration Reform Debate
Aired March 29, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, "Broken Borders," and we focus on the scandalous reasons that authorities leave a gaping hole in the California border fence, a hole that means that this country remains wide open to illegal aliens and potentially terrorists.
I'll be talking with a leading congressman who says there is simply no excuse for the federal government's failures to enforce our borders.
Illegal alien crisis. Twenty million illegal aliens live in this country. Millions more are waiting to cross our borders. Tonight, I'll talk with three leaders of the Latino and Hispanic community who have strong views about this crisis and who to a person consider me to be anti-immigrant, not anti-illegal immigration.
And outsourcing your safety as well as your jobs. A major U.S. airline outsourcing critical maintenance work and claims Canada is simply a cheap overseas labor market.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Four leading congressmen today demanded that the federal government take immediate action to seal our broken borders. The congressmen declared illegal aliens and terrorists can easily enter this country, in part because a border fence in California has never been completed. And authorities, border security officials, have continued to find reasons not to complete that fence.
Meanwhile, the federal government is planning to announce a new initiative that would tighten security in another border state, Arizona.
Casey Wian tonight is in San Diego, and he reports on the battle to secure our border with Mexico in California. And Jeanne Meserve in Tucson will report on the government's plans to boost border security in Arizona.
We begin with Jeanne Meserve.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's part of the Arizona border patrol initiatives. Sources within the Department of Homeland Security say the number of border patrol agents here in Arizona will be boosted by about 500, the formal announcement to be made tomorrow. About 150 of those agents will be coming in from elsewhere in the country. About 350 will be new hires, people who are being put in existing vacancies within the border patrol. This will boost the total number of border patrol agents here in Arizona to about 3,000.
Now, officials announced the first phase of the Arizona border patrol initiative a year ago, and they say it is purely coincidental that they are announcing this second phase just days before the Minutemen begin an action along the border.
The Minutemen, a group of volunteers, people who believe that not enough is being done to stem the flow of illegal aliens. They characterize themselves as a neighborhood watch group. Others call them vigilantes.
In any event, starting Friday they intend to station volunteers along a 50-mile stretch of the Arizona-Mexican border to spot and report anybody who they see crossing the border illegally.
There is the possibility of counter demonstrations. There has also been talk that there could be confrontations with MS-13, the violent gang based in Central America, but organizers of the Minutemen say they don't believe that is a real possibility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS SIMCOX, CO-FOUNDER, MINUTEMAN PROJECT: That was a hoax and a scare tactic started out a blog site out of Los Angeles by a bunch of racist, radical, anti-American reconquistas, who say that these states belong to them, to Mexico. So we don't take it too seriously. That would be -- that would be bad for business for them.
MESERVE: Do you expect MS-13 to show up?
SIMCOX: No, no. There's going to be so much media attention, so much law enforcement attention, so much border patrol attention, this would be the last place that anyone who had intentions of engaging in illegal activity would be -- would be found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Here in the Tucson sector, about 2,000 arrests are made by the border patrol every day. This area is a big concern. That is why they are pouring so many more resources into this particular area. We spent much of the day today with the border patrol. And tomorrow we will have a closer look at the Arizona border patrol initiative, what it is doing and what critics say it is not doing.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Jeanne Meserve, thank you very much.
As we reported, four leading congressmen today demanded the federal government take immediate action to enforce our borders. Casey Wian is in San Diego and has the report -- Casey. CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, under the watchful eye of a handful of Mexican residents peering across the border fence, as you can see behind me, several lawmakers are meeting here to push for approval of the Real I.D. Act, which among other things would complete a border fence project that was begun in 1988.
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WIAN: Lou, as we mentioned, U.S. Congressmen Duncan Hunter is one of the main proponents of this border fence completion project. He's been working on this for six years. Or actually, he's been working on it for a lot longer than that, but he's been working on completing the last three miles of this 14-mile section of the border for about the past six years.
He has been blocked by environmentalists along the way. They are worried about several plant species and animals species that they say will be destroyed by the completion of the fence. They're also worried about the border patrol's plans to fix some of the roads along the border here, which they say are very dangerous and are not safe for their agents to be patrolling on.
The environmentalists have so far succeeded in blocking these plans to expand the fence, but as you mentioned, this Real I.D. Act looks like it's going to make it a possibility.
The lawmakers say that they expect approval by the Senate. It has already been approved, as you mentioned by the House, and Congressman Hunter talked to us earlier. He said that he doesn't want to stop at the last three miles of the border near San Diego. He thinks about 250 miles of the border should be fenced. There's about 12 areas that are smugglers' corridors for both aliens and drugs. He wants those areas fenced. He says the would be about a half billion dollars, money he says would well worth it -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian, reporting from along the Mexican border.
Later here in the broadcast, I'll be talking with a leading congressmen about those shocking holes in border security, not only in California but in fact along all of our borders, both north and south, and how to better protect this country. I'll be talking with the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, James Sensenbrenner, who is a sponsor of the Real I.D. Act.
I'll also be talking with three leaders of the Latino and Hispanic community about the escalating crisis over the invasion of illegal aliens in this country and our need for border security. All three, by the way, say I'm anti-immigrant, not anti-illegal immigration. We'll be discussing those diverging points of view.
As we've reported extensively here, communities all over this country are suffering from the impact of that illegal alien invasion. Taxpayers everywhere are bearing huge additional costs, but Congress is taking little, if any, action to address the crisis.
Christine Romans is here and has the report for us -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, 4,000 illegal aliens every day enter this country, most of them from Mexico. Those illegals are spreading to nearly every state, but most of the men and women who represent those states are doing nothing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): Two things motivate lawmakers in Washington above all else: money and votes. That's why Washington has been paralyzed in immigration reform debate.
Traditional competing interests have combined to serve big businesses' addition to cheap labor and both parties' hunger for 12 million potential voters. Even as those illegal aliens are knocking American citizens off the lowest rungs of the economic ladder.
Black congressional leaders want to build a coalition with Hispanics.
TERRY ANDERSON, MECHANIC/RADIO HOST: The thing that angers me the most about it is the black leaders aren't saying one word. The Congressional Black Caucus has sold us out, totally sold out the black community by pushing for more and more legalization of illegal aliens who aren't supposed to be here in the first place.
ROMANS: The Congressional Black Caucus doesn't have an official position on illegal immigration, no official position despite the fact that 42 percent of low-income African-Americans are in direct competition with illegal aliens for their jobs.
Both political parties are divided on the issue of illegal immigration. For example, unlike most Democrats, Hillary Clinton has proclaimed she is opposed to illegal immigration, and Republicans are split, as well, and the divide is widening.
President Bush touts amnesty for illegal aliens, but more Republicans are now expressing concern about national security at our borders, which are all but wide open.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Now, there have been consistent voices on this issue. Congressman Tom Tancredo leads the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, which has tripled in size in the past year. They are working to see that our immigration laws are enforced.
Overall, one congressional insider tells me this is a case, Lou, of the elites versus the everyday Americans. Polls consistently show popular support for enforcing the immigration laws on the books. It's a wonder that those people in Washington who are so interested in polls aren't paying attention to these. DOBBS: It's really a striking statement that you just made in terms of the elites, because this is a question of arrogant elites, who are absolutely looking at public opinion poll after public opinion poll, 70 percent or better, absolutely insisting that border security be enforced, that immigration laws be enforced.
Meanwhile, corporate America continues to feed, to exploit the illegal aliens in this country while working men and women are having their wages depressed by the most reasonable estimate I've seen, $200 billion a year. This is an issue that is going to have to be dealt with, one hopes sooner rather than later.
Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.
CNN has just learned that famed attorney Johnnie Cochran has died. We're going now to Ted Rowlands for the very latest -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, CNN is just confirming that, indeed, Johnnie Cochran has lost his battle with a long illness and has passed away, passed away today at some point. CNN has confirmed it from multiple sources, and we just got a statement from O.J. Simpson.
Of course Johnnie Cochran was the leader of the dream team that represented O.J. Simpson, which ultimately ended in an acquittal against -- with the murder charges against Simpson. O.J. Simpson said, "I loved him as a good Christian man and a great lawyer." That from O.J. Simpson just a few moments ago, confirming that Johnnie Cochran, famed attorney, has passed away today.
We are still working on more details, but we can confirm that Johnnie Cochran is dead -- Lou.
DOBBS: And Ted will have more details for us as this -- as they become available. Ted Rowlands reporting. Thank you.
Returning now to the top story of the evening, the crisis over illegal immigration in this country. While most members of Congress are ignoring the escalating crisis over illegal aliens and illegal immigration, some state and local lawmakers are taking action on their own.
One of those states is Virginia. Today, Governor Mark Warner signed a bill that would deny public benefits to illegal aliens. Virginia now joins Arizona as the only two states in this country to introduce such legislation.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An estimated 100,000 illegal aliens live in Virginia, and the number continues to grow. Virginia delegate David Albo sponsored the bill that prohibits state and local money from being used to provide services to illegal aliens. DAVID ALBO, VIRGINIA HOUSE OF DELEGATES: Property taxes have gone up 70 percent in five years. And the citizens and my voters are completely and utterly outraged. And what they get even more outraged from is, not only is the government taking their money, saying they need it, but now we want to find out that they want to take the taxpayers' money and give it to illegal aliens. It drives people nuts.
SYLVESTER: Virginians will have to prove they're in the country legally in order to receive housing, food and state Medicaid assistance. The law does not apply to emergency care or basic education. Illegal aliens under the age every 19 are exempted.
Arlington, Virginia, and other jurisdictions failed to get Governor Mark Warner to exclude them from the law, arguing it erodes local authority.
WALTER TEJADA, ARLINGTON COUNTY BOARD MEMBER: This law erodes our local authority. We know best our community. In Arlington County, alone, about one third, one third of our population is foreign-born. We think we know our community best and how to best serve it.
SYLVESTER: But public opinion in Virginia has been solidly against providing services to illegal residents. The legislation passed the Virginia House 85-9, and the Senate unanimously.
JACK MARTIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: People are concerned that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that should be taken by our country's poorest people that are competing for the same jobs.
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SYLVESTER: The law takes effect on January 1, 2006. And the governor's office will ask the Virginia Latino Advisory Commission to make sure the law is implemented fairly and does not imposition heavy costs on local governments -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, I found it interesting that Mr. Tejada referred to his constituents, a third of them being foreign-born. And this legislation has no concern or direction toward where one is born, but whether one is legally in the United States, correct?
SYLVESTER: That is correct. I mean, this legislation is clearly focusing on illegal immigration, not people who are here legally in the country and legally in this case in Virginia.
DOBBS: Lisa Sylvester, thank you, reporting from Washington.
In New Mexico, recruiters for Albuquerque public schools and several other districts will be looking for new teachers in an unlikely place, Mexico. That's right, New Mexico's taxpayers are now funding a state-sponsored trip to Mexico in late April to recruit teachers. The goal is to recruit Mexican teachers to come to the United States to teach New Mexico's students in American public schools, of course, in a language other than English.
New Mexico's school districts say they are currently facing a critical shortage of licensed bilingual teachers in a state whose immigrant population more than doubled over the past decade. There are already more than 1,600 licensed bilingual teachers in the state of New Mexico, but state officials say they don't meet the demand, which is rising. The Mexican national teachers would be allowed to stay in the United States for three years.
Still ahead here, outsourcing your safety. A major American air carrier exporting critically important work to a foreign company to save money. And they say it's all domestic business.
And the fight for the life of Terri Schiavo on her 12th day without food or water. Tonight, why some say her family's efforts to keep her alive have gained new momentum.
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DOBBS: Delta Airlines today became the latest carry to outsource its maintenance work to another country. That's right, foreign citizens will soon be performing maintenance on aircraft flown in the United States by a U.S. air carrier. Delta Airlines says the move will costs as many as 2,000 Americans their jobs.
Bill Tucker has the report.
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BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Delta Airlines is going north of the border in search of cheaper labor. Delta awarding a contract for heavy maintenance work on its planes to ACE Aviation Holdings, also known as Air Canada.
Avborne of Miami will be picking up a piece of the contract work for some of Delta's older aircraft. Delta joining the ranks of United, Northwest Airlines, Alaska Air and U.S. Airways in outsourcing maintenance work to save money. And that worries the inspectors.
LINDA GOODRICH, V.P., FAA INSPECTORS UNION: The best way to describe it -- and I don't want to be sensational, but we believe right now they are playing Russian roulette with the public's safety in dealing with aviation safety.
TUCKER: Delta, though, says it feels pressured. And in a memo to its employees, the head of the technical operations says, "Many airlines have already taken the steps that Delta is taking today. And I believe many more will follow."
Delta's move means up to 2,000 highly-skilled workers will lose their jobs, which some analysts see as just the point.
RICHARD ABOULAFIA, AVIATION CONSULTANT: Moves like this are very good for the long term because they allow you to pressure the people who provide your maintenance.
TUCKER: Delta lost $5 billion last year. Outsourcing its maintenance work is expected to save Delta $240 million.
Since 1988, the number of foreign repair stations doing work for American carriers has risen 325 percent, according to the AFL-CIO Transportation and Trades Department. And that's a trend which is raising concerns with those charged with assuring the safety of our airlines.
Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And our quote of the day tonight comes from a Delta spokesman. When we asked Delta about the decision to export this critically important maintenance work to Canada, Delta's response was telling.
"The work in Canada is domestic. Because it's North America, that is part of our domestic operation." Now, that's worth repeating.
A U.S. company exporting work to a foreign country, in this case Canada, saying the work in Canada is domestic. Our quote of the day.
As we have reported, cheap foreign labor is also devastating American textile workers. Cheap Chinese textile imports are flooding into this country now at an ever-increasing rate, even more so after global quotas expired. But tonight the White House is declining to take any action and declining to restrict Chinese exports to this country in any way.
Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez today said the White House has only just started to monitor the situation and needs more facts. Well, we've been monitoring the situation for quite some time on this broadcast. And if we can be helpful to the Bush administration, we'd like to provide a few facts. Among them, hundreds of thousands of American jobs have already been lost, and will continue to be lost because of the administration's misguided so-called free trade policies that are costing those jobs.
An important milestone for the U.S. space program today, we're pleased to report. In the very early hours of this morning, NASA moved the Shuttle Discovery from the hangar to the vehicle assembly building, a quarter mile away.
That short journey is the first sign that NASA is ready to move ahead with the first shuttle launch since the Columbia disaster more than two years ago. The next step for the Shuttle Discovery will be to have its rockets boosters, both of them, and a newly designed fuel tank attached. NASA has scheduled the Discovery launch for sometime in mid-May.
Coming up next here, closing a 3.5-mile hole in a fence along our border with Mexico. I'll be talking with a leading congressman who is demanding that the federal government take action to ensure border security. He's our guest here next.
And then, a new appeal for the life of Terri Schiavo. Why her parents say they have new hope that Florida will take action to keep their daughter alive.
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DOBBS: Congressman James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin and Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for Immigrations and Customs Enforcement Michael Garcia today announced the arrest of 21 criminal illegal aliens. Those illegal aliens all arrested in the state of Wisconsin were in hiding, trying to avoid deportation.
Michael Garcia had been scheduled to be our guest this evening. Although he initially agreed to join us, he was unable, we're sad to report tonight, to make it. We hope he will soon be able to join us here.
Meanwhile, fortunately, Congressman Sensenbrenner, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, is able to join us tonight. And as we've reported, he and three other leading congressmen today traveling to the border with Mexico. They're demanding that the U.S. government seal a three-mile hole in the border fence.
Congressman Sensenbrenner is the author, the sponsor of the Real ID Act on border security, joining us from San Diego tonight.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: Lou, good being here.
DOBBS: First, let me ask you, is it -- in terms of the legislation, the Real ID Act, are you more hopeful today than the last time we talked that it will actually see its way into law?
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I hope that the Senate will do the right thing in passing the Real ID Act. And what you see behind me is a single fence with people on top of it.
One of the things the Real ID Act does is to build a double fence where there will be a path that the Border Patrol can run cars and SUVs on, between 40 and 50 miles an hour, to catch illegal aliens who jump over the first fence before they get to the second fence. West of here, that kind of a fence has worked, and it stopped the 10 murders a year that have occurred on the old segment of the border, and 300 drug runs in trucks per month have been stopped by that fence.
We need to complete the fence. And the way to do it is to pass the Real ID Act and to have the Senate do the right thing.
DOBBS: Congressman, let me ask you, that fence behind you, with all of its achievements and other fences across the border where they've been put in place, have been effective. The Border Patrol supports closing that gap, yet it's been there for almost two decades.
What is the real reason it hasn't been done? The government has plenty of money. It could be done at the drop of a hat, couldn't it?
SENSENBRENNER: The real reason is unending litigation. If one agency finally signs off, then there's a lawsuit that another agency has got to deal with the environmental issues.
Well, I've been wandering around here for the better part of the last hour and a half. This is no pristine pure environmental area. The illegals that come across the border every night have turned this thing into a dump, garbage dump, and an open-air toilet.
And I think the way that we deal with this issue is simply complete the fence, re-deploy the Border Patrol so that they can be more effective in dealing with illegal entries. Otherwise -- you know, just basically override the people who support keeping an open border that are chanting behind me.
DOBBS: In point of fact, a lot of political games are being played. That fence standing is a symbol with the hole in it.
Here's a thought. Why not have the U.S. attorney general or the solicitor general counter-sue those environmental groups that are trying to stop the construction of that fence and charge them for the cost of the damage to the environment for the crossing of three million illegal aliens last year, for the impact on the western states in particular, which is also suffering a severe drought? The impact on the economy is inestimable, isn't it, Congressman?
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I think that you can't have homeland security without border security. And obviously this is a place that smugglers use not only to bring people across the border, but to bring drugs across the border and gang members across the border. This is a public safety problem that impacts every American, even Americans who live as far away from the Mexican border as my constituents in Wisconsin.
DOBBS: Well, speaking of Wisconsin and those arrests that were announced, the arrested made in your state, 21 of those criminals -- illegal aliens criminals that were arrested, along with the addition of 500 Border Patrol men, ICE says that it's absolutely a coincidence that that's occurring, first in your state over the weekend, adding 500 border patrolmen in the same week that the Minuteman Project is set to go into operation. Do you think that's a coincidence?
SENSENBRENNER: No, it's not a coincidence, and the American public is extremely frustrated at the fact that we are not having effective border security. Look, it is illegal to enter the United States without going through a port of entry and being checked by our Immigration and Customs officials. It's also illegal to enter Mexico without being checked by the Mexican Immigration and Customs officials.
The time has come to enforce the law. And people who aren't breaking the law have no reason to fear in going through a legal, lawful port of entry and getting properly inspected before they are admitted into the United States.
DOBBS: What do you make of President Vicente Fox's statement last week, if I could ask, Mr. Chairman. He said, referring to the fences along our borders -- no country that is proud of itself should build walls. What's your response to that statement? He calls it discriminatory, in addition.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I wish we didn't have to -- well, first of all, it's not discriminatory, because there are a lot of people who enter our country illegally that come from countries other than Mexico. The second thing is that one of the elements of sovereignty of any country is to be able to secure the borders, and determine who is admitted as a guest and under what conditions. And I think the president of Mexico expects that of people who visit Mexico, he should be respectful of the United States respecting that of people who visit our country.
DOBBS: And Congressman, I just love the concept of being discriminatory in the case of who crosses your border legally and illegally. It seems clear to me, at least, that the discrimination is against those who are trying to do what is right, enter the country legally, whether they're applying for residency or naturalization themselves.
Congressman Sensenbrenner, we all wish you the very best of luck. We thank you for your efforts. And we appreciate your time here on our broadcast.
SENSENBRENNER: Thanks, Lou. And it's time for the Senate to do the right thing and pass the bill.
DOBBS: Congressman James Sensenbrenner, thank you.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight -- about that coincidence of the Border Patrol and ICE that we're referring to, do you think the Department of Homeland Security's 500 additional Border Patrol agents that they put in the state of Arizona this week is in direct response to the activities of the Minuteman Project?
Yes or no, cast you vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts."
Bill Pellechia of Ft. Myers, Florida says, "Why do I have to take me shoes off at airports when anyone can infiltrate our borders at anytime? The DHS is an inept behemoth that for the sake of us all must be reigned in."
John Smart in Lose Angeles, "Those who employ illegal aliens should be arrested. Period. They are just as responsible as the federal government and the illegals themselves."
And T. Jones from Gainesville, Florida, "After 30 odd years in the classroom teaching young Americans the language and culture of another people, one thing was, and still is clear to me: no one ever became fluent in language a while speaking language b. It's what some would call a no-brainer. Bilingual education was a fraud and a farce from the outset. It only serves to harm the very young people we want to help." Harry Dune of Sarasota, Florida, "Keep up the hard hitting reports on outsourcing jobs and on illegal aliens. You are the only major newsman who has the courage to challenge the government and big business on these issues."
Now, aside from the nice words, I want to say one thing to you what Joanna said, the fact is we are criticizing the U.S. government and big business -- that is, the establishment in this country -- which bears direct responsibility for our immigration crisis and for outsourcing of American jobs. We appreciate you noticing.
Joanna Thompson from Bloomfield, Nebraska, "All of the previous legal immigrants had to learn English and schools taught in English. The current ones should be required to do so" as well. "The pandering to a bunch of illegals for the sake of big business is out of control."
Please send is "Your Thoughts" to loudobbs@cnn.com. Each of you whose e-mails is read on this broadcast receives a copy of my book, "Exporting American," loudobbs.com. Also if you'd like to receive our e-mail newsletter sign up on our Web site, again, loudobbs.com.
A new study tonight confirms what many of us have suspected for a long time that faculties at our country's universities tend to lean just a bit to the political left. Seventy two percent of the collegiate faculty across the country, say in the most recent poll that, yes, they are liberal, while 15 percent acknowledge that they are conservative. The difference is even more pronounced at the nation's so-called elite schools, where 87 percent of the faculty say they are liberal, only 13 percent say they're conservative.
The federal government may not be able to tell you where the millions of illegal aliens in this country are or what they're doing, but it can, I'm pleased to tell you, tell whether you're alive or not. It may make a mistake initially, but it has the capacity to correct it. A Pennsylvania woman has just received a letter from the Social Security Administration informing her that in fact she is not dead. The letter came after the woman tried to file a tax return and was rejected. The IRS said its records showed she is deceased. It turns out the women's Social Security number had been mixed up with a number of someone who unfortunately did die.
Coming up next, the fight over Terri Schiavo's fate and why her family is still hopeful tonight that the state of Florida may step in.
And we'll be talking about a decision to share a sponsor list, a supporter list for commercial reasons.
Also ahead, what is sure to be a heated debate about the escalating immigration crisis in this country. Three of the most out spoken leaders of the Latino and Hispanic immigrant community join me.
And a long-awaited report on U.N. Secretary Kofi -- Secretary- General Kofi Annan's role in the U.N. Oil For Food scandal. Will Annan resign? That story is coming up.
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DOBBS: Jesse Jackson joined the family of Terri Schiavo outside hers hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida today. Reverend Jackson urged state lawmakers to pass emergency legislation trying to keep Terri Schiavo alive.
Susan Candiotti joins us now from Pinellas Park.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou.
A sense of urgency not waning among protesters here. The majority of people you see are indeed siding with the Schindler family who are trying to have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted. However, this days they appear no closer to their goal. Terri's mother again pinning her hopes on the Florida legislature who you might recall last week narrowly defeated a bill that would have required a feeding tube -- to prevent feeding tubes from being removed unless a patient's wishes are in writing. Now, Florida Senate sources tell CNN there is virtually no chance that that bill could be taken up again before next week. The question, of course, is whether Terri could last that long.
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MARY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S MOTHER: I'd like to appeal to the Florida senators to please, please pass this new bill. Terri is still fighting. She's still alive. She's trying with all her might. She does not want to die. I'm begging them to please fight and give Terri a chance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: The Schindler family did get a moral boost this day from Reverend Jesse Jackson who came here to the hospice in an attempt to visit Terri Schiavo with the Schindler's. However, as you might recall, the list of people who get in to see her is regulated by Michael Schiavo, her husband, and Reverend Jackson was not permitted to see her. And we heard from one pro-life support Randall Terry today who said that you could have blown him over with a feather, because usually he and Reverend Jackson are on opposite -- polar opposite sides of various issues.
However, Jackson who opposed federal legislation in the Schiavo case, nevertheless called her situation an injustice. Now, at the same time Jackson was speaking, a man was able to rush past the entrance to the hospice, or at least the outdoor driveway, anyway. As he did, police tasered him. He was arrested. However, he was unhurt.
No word this day from Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, about how she is doing. Terri's brother, however, did complain that Michael Schiavo is not allowing his sister to receive Holy Communion. However, that again is governed by a court order. She was only allowed to receive Holy Communion as a Catholic on two occasions, right before her feeding tube was removed, and again on Easter Sunday.
And finally, Lou, another interesting note this day. We learned that the people who have been donating money to the Schindler cause -- and there have been thousands of them -- their names were sold to -- a mailing list was allowed to be sold to a Web site, which in turn is selling it to various conservative groups. So this again is another example of how people -- about how the Terri Schiavo case is being used by other people to help their own various causes, Lou.
DOBBS: The tragedy expands beyond the -- certainly the immediate family in this case. Susan Candiotti, reporting from Pinellas Park, thank you.
Here are some of the other important stories we're following this evening.
O.J. Simpson's lead defense attorney, Johnnie Cochran, has died at his home in Los Angeles. Cochran had been in a hospice suffering from a neurological disease. He was 67 years old.
First lady Laura Bush set off today on her way to Afghanistan. She is scheduled to spend five hours there. Mrs. Bush will be briefed on plans for educating Afghan women. She will also meet with President Hamid Karzai and with U.S. forces at Bagram Air Base.
A former top official for the Boy Scouts of America has been charged with downloading child pornography. Investigators say they found pictures of children engaging in sex acts on his computer. Douglas Smith is expected to plead guilty when he appears before a federal judge tomorrow in Fort Worth, Texas.
U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan today declared he has no intention of resigning over the multibillion-dollar oil for food scandal. And in responding to a question from CNN's Richard Roth about a highly critical report on the scandal and the role played by Annan's son, Kojo.
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RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you feel it's time, for the good of the organization, to step down?
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: Hell, no. I love my son, and I've also expected the highest standards of integrity from him. I am deeply saddened by the evidence to the contrary that has emerged, and particularly by the fact that my son had failed to cooperate fully with the inquiry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Today's report criticized Annan for failing for investigate possible conflicts of interest involving his son, but Annan declared the report cleared him of any wrongdoing.
Coming up next here, the profound impact of millions of illegal aliens entering this country, the impact on our nation's schools, our economy, and our society overall. I'll be joined by three leaders of the Latino and Hispanic community. And two of them, only two of them, say that I'm anti-immigrant instead of anti-illegal immigration. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported here, the Census Bureau says now more than half the Hispanic and Latino immigrants into this country over the past four years did not complete high school. And yet, illegal immigration, illegal aliens with little or no education, are taking work away from American citizens.
To what degree, that is arguable, but the plain and simple facts are that illegal immigration is creating great strains and stresses on this economy and this society.
And joining me tonight here in New York, Cesar Perales. He's president and general counsel for the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, who says he is not surprised by these findings.
And it's good to have you with us, Cesar.
From Las Vegas, Brent Wilkes. He's the national executive director of the League of United Latin-American Citizens. He says that if uneducated immigrants are coming to fill jobs Americans don't want, that is a positive thing for the economy and the country.
And it's good to have you with us, at least at a distance, Brent.
From Washington, D.C. Lisa Navarrete, vice president of the National Council of La Raza. She says we need to focus efforts on improving educational opportunities for Hispanics.
Lisa, it is good to have you with us, there, at least, in Washington, D.C.
And we thank you all for being here to talk about and shed light on a very critically important issue.
Cesar, let me begin with you. The idea that half, basically half of the immigrants coming into this country, illegally, for the most part, are uneducated. Why are we permitting this to happen?
CESAR PERALES, PUERTO RICAN LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND: Lou, this is the story of America. Our Statue of Liberty beckons the huddled masses, not the huddled people with high school degrees.
I think the reality is that that has been what has stoked the fuel of the economy, these hard-working people who come here to make a life for themselves, for their children. And their children do better than they did educationally, as I'm sure you know.
But this is what America is about, and I think we ought to be proud of that.
DOBBS: I happen to be one of those people who believes that we should be proud of whatever the work is that we do in life, whatever job we have, we should give that great respect. I think in this country there may be some considerable erosion of that.
But let me turn, Lisa, now to you. The fact that we are -- half of the adults immigrating into this country, as has been the case for the past three decades now, lack a high school education, you're not concerned about that?
LISA NAVARRETE, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: Of course we are, and -- but I think that it's important to remember the study (UNINTELLIGIBLE) not -- looked at not only at immigrants, but at all groups, all Hispanics. And we are very concerned about the gap between Hispanics and non-Hispanics in terms of education. And that's why we are in the business of expanding educational opportunities and trying to find policies that will improve educational attainment among all Hispanics.
We need to do a better job of educating all our kids. It's -- this is an education issue, an education reform issue, not an immigration issue.
DOBBS: Do you agree, Brent?
BRENT WILKES, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN-AMERICAN CITIZENS: Absolutely. And what's encouraging is, the second and third generations are doing much better. In fact, second-generation Latino students will be almost as twice as likely to go on to college, and third generation almost three times as likely to go to college.
So things do improve with concerted efforts and programs that can benefit these populations.
DOBBS: All right. Now, if you will, let's put into context the report that we've just seen, the Harvard report, showing in California that Hispanics and African-Americans are literally -- it's a devastating report, showing the number that are dropping out of school.
That combination, with the onset of a group of people here illegally -- We're not talking about immigration, I agree with you, Cesar, and anyone else, whether you believe me or not. I am absolutely pro-immigration. But I want to have a conscious decision by our government as to who will be brought into this country and who will not.
How are we to deal with the situation in which Hispanics, and La Raza, any number of organizations, are doing wonderful work with educating, but they're working at the margin?
Meanwhile, the public school systems, that are inundated with illegal immigration, who are losing their battles, if they're fighting fiercely -- I certainly hope they are, to keep those students in -- we're creating huge problems to our society.
PERALES: Lou, you know, a few generations ago, you'd be talking about the Irish flooding our schools, and breaking down the educational standards. I think what Brent just pointed out is, that, Latinos do well, that the next generation does better than the last, and this is the way America has always worked.
I think you ask the questions -- the first one alludes to the fact that we all would hope that you would join us in creating good immigration reform. I think we all want that. So, I don't think we differ there. I think where we differ is your expectation that somehow today's immigrants are not going to do as well as yesterday's.
DOBBS: Well, actually I think that -- my concern is more specific -- and I appreciate the invitation, I'll be glad to join you anytime on that. The fact is that we are watching our school systems -- and it's empirical at base -- we're watching test scores just fall like rocks, we're watching dropout rates that are immense, and we're tolerating it as a society. And we are seeing some resistance, and I'm not going to suggest that it's any one of your organizations, folks, I'm just saying to you that too many people, it seems to me, are coming to this as a racial issue rather than as a social, an American issue, that's fundamental to understanding what is in our national interest. We're not teaching black kids, we're not teaching Hispanics, we're not teaching white kids.
PERALES: That's what just Lisa said a moment ago. That's her position, and I quite agree with her. This is an issue...
DOBBS: Lisa, why don't you talk to me yourself.
NAVARRETE: Well, I...
DOBBS: Cesar is taking over for you.
NAVARRETE: Well, I would be happy to defer to Cesar, as I always do, but -- it is exactly right. This is an education issue. We're not doing a good job of educating our kids. A lot of our kids are being left behind. And that's why -- one of the reasons we supported the No Child Left Behind Act. We want standards, we want ways to help children, and the No Child Left Behind was the first one to help English language learners, also, in this process. We need to do a better job of educating all our kids. This is an educational issue, and we will join with you, with Cesar, and with Brent to make this happen.
DOBBS: Well, let's -- we'll even broaden it, perhaps, a little more here, as we continue this discussion. I'll be back with these three folks talking about very important issues involved in the crisis of illegal immigration, and a crisis that's in some ways every bit as profound and related, a crisis in our public educational system in this country. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me here once more, Cesar Perales, he's President General Council Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund; Brent Wilkes, National Executive Director of the League of the United Latin- American Citizens; Lisa Navarrete, Vice President of the National Council of La Raza.
Lisa, let me go to you real quickly; I've got one more thing -- one more issue -- that I think we really need to hit on. You said -- you were quoted as saying, "Dobbs has become, in a very short time, a have prominent, very vociferous member of the anti-immigration coalition."
You didn't mean it, did you?
NAVARRETE: Well, um, Mr. Dobbs...
DOBBS: Call me Lou. You can cuss me, but you can call me Lou if you're going to cuss me.
NAVARRETE: Well, what we're asking you, sir, is just to be fair and balanced. I think the issue is that you have to find -- we are also anti-illegal immigration. We do not want people subject to exploitation and abuse and harassment, which they are subject to. But we also believe that there are benefits to immigration to this country, and you don't talk about those things. You may say you support legal immigrants, but we never hear the good side and the positive contributions that immigrants make. That's what I was talking about.
DOBBS: Lisa, I feel better about that since I know -- you have exempted me from being someone's comrade in a coalition. Let me be clear again, as Cesar and I have discussed. I'm not anti-immigration, I'm pro-immigration. I am anti-illegal immigration, and I am certainly anti-porous borders and I just don't think the country can run that risk.
Let me ask each of you, and Lisa, let me begin with you. As a condition preceding for immigration reform, would you agree to absolute border security for this country?
NAVARRETE: We support more resources at the border, but complete comprehensive immigration reform has to go beyond border security.
DOBBS: No, no, I understand. But I think that we
NAVARRETE: But we -- we -- we put more....
DOBBS: ...all have to come together the national interest is at stake here.
NAVARRETE: We believe a country has a right to protect its borders and we support more resources at the border.
DOBBS: I'm going to take that as sort of a yes. Brent Wilkes?
WILKES: No, we certainly don't, Lou. We think that's a delay tactic. Let's address this issue right up front...
DOBBS: Who can delay it? Because of you and all of our friends here....
WILKES: ...you're never going to secure the border, Lou. You never are. You could build as big a wall as you want.
DOBBS: This is America, partner, we can do anything we set our mind to.
WILKES: Boy, you're wrong about that. It hasn't worked yet.
DOBBS: We'll see.
PERALES: I would agree with you in principle, except I fear the same thing Brent does, that you would spend months and months saying our borders are not yet secure and we'll put off the rest of immigration reform.
DOBBS: If the people in Washington, ballpark is selling out from votes to Hispanics -- Hispanic groups...
PERALES: You're taking that...
DOBBS: ...let me finish -- and they're selling out to big business who are exploiting illegal aliens, and there's no -- does any one of you disagree with any statement I made? I mean, that's what the situation is. Why couldn't you all come together and really have an impact on education, on border security, and just declare it, your support for it.
PERALES: For border security? I'm prepared to declare it. I'm sure everybody else is.
NAVARRETE: And we want support for fixing our broken immigration system, and that means comprehensive immigration reform. We've stood with business, with labor, with religious groups...
DOBBS: Well, you know...
NAVARRETE: ...with our fellow civil rights organizations and advocacy organizations. We are in favor of comprehensive immigration reform. Lou, we need to look for solutions.
DOBBS: We're flat out of time.
I agree with you, Lisa, and we're going to ask you, and Brent, and Cesar to come back soon, and a lot of other folks, as we continue the conversation. Thanks for being with us here tonight.
The results of our poll tonight -- 96 percent of you say the Department of Homeland Security 500 additional border patrol agents is directly in response to the Minuteman Project. We thank you for being with us tonight. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired March 29, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, "Broken Borders," and we focus on the scandalous reasons that authorities leave a gaping hole in the California border fence, a hole that means that this country remains wide open to illegal aliens and potentially terrorists.
I'll be talking with a leading congressman who says there is simply no excuse for the federal government's failures to enforce our borders.
Illegal alien crisis. Twenty million illegal aliens live in this country. Millions more are waiting to cross our borders. Tonight, I'll talk with three leaders of the Latino and Hispanic community who have strong views about this crisis and who to a person consider me to be anti-immigrant, not anti-illegal immigration.
And outsourcing your safety as well as your jobs. A major U.S. airline outsourcing critical maintenance work and claims Canada is simply a cheap overseas labor market.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Four leading congressmen today demanded that the federal government take immediate action to seal our broken borders. The congressmen declared illegal aliens and terrorists can easily enter this country, in part because a border fence in California has never been completed. And authorities, border security officials, have continued to find reasons not to complete that fence.
Meanwhile, the federal government is planning to announce a new initiative that would tighten security in another border state, Arizona.
Casey Wian tonight is in San Diego, and he reports on the battle to secure our border with Mexico in California. And Jeanne Meserve in Tucson will report on the government's plans to boost border security in Arizona.
We begin with Jeanne Meserve.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's part of the Arizona border patrol initiatives. Sources within the Department of Homeland Security say the number of border patrol agents here in Arizona will be boosted by about 500, the formal announcement to be made tomorrow. About 150 of those agents will be coming in from elsewhere in the country. About 350 will be new hires, people who are being put in existing vacancies within the border patrol. This will boost the total number of border patrol agents here in Arizona to about 3,000.
Now, officials announced the first phase of the Arizona border patrol initiative a year ago, and they say it is purely coincidental that they are announcing this second phase just days before the Minutemen begin an action along the border.
The Minutemen, a group of volunteers, people who believe that not enough is being done to stem the flow of illegal aliens. They characterize themselves as a neighborhood watch group. Others call them vigilantes.
In any event, starting Friday they intend to station volunteers along a 50-mile stretch of the Arizona-Mexican border to spot and report anybody who they see crossing the border illegally.
There is the possibility of counter demonstrations. There has also been talk that there could be confrontations with MS-13, the violent gang based in Central America, but organizers of the Minutemen say they don't believe that is a real possibility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS SIMCOX, CO-FOUNDER, MINUTEMAN PROJECT: That was a hoax and a scare tactic started out a blog site out of Los Angeles by a bunch of racist, radical, anti-American reconquistas, who say that these states belong to them, to Mexico. So we don't take it too seriously. That would be -- that would be bad for business for them.
MESERVE: Do you expect MS-13 to show up?
SIMCOX: No, no. There's going to be so much media attention, so much law enforcement attention, so much border patrol attention, this would be the last place that anyone who had intentions of engaging in illegal activity would be -- would be found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Here in the Tucson sector, about 2,000 arrests are made by the border patrol every day. This area is a big concern. That is why they are pouring so many more resources into this particular area. We spent much of the day today with the border patrol. And tomorrow we will have a closer look at the Arizona border patrol initiative, what it is doing and what critics say it is not doing.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Jeanne Meserve, thank you very much.
As we reported, four leading congressmen today demanded the federal government take immediate action to enforce our borders. Casey Wian is in San Diego and has the report -- Casey. CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, under the watchful eye of a handful of Mexican residents peering across the border fence, as you can see behind me, several lawmakers are meeting here to push for approval of the Real I.D. Act, which among other things would complete a border fence project that was begun in 1988.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(NO AUDIO)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WIAN: Lou, as we mentioned, U.S. Congressmen Duncan Hunter is one of the main proponents of this border fence completion project. He's been working on this for six years. Or actually, he's been working on it for a lot longer than that, but he's been working on completing the last three miles of this 14-mile section of the border for about the past six years.
He has been blocked by environmentalists along the way. They are worried about several plant species and animals species that they say will be destroyed by the completion of the fence. They're also worried about the border patrol's plans to fix some of the roads along the border here, which they say are very dangerous and are not safe for their agents to be patrolling on.
The environmentalists have so far succeeded in blocking these plans to expand the fence, but as you mentioned, this Real I.D. Act looks like it's going to make it a possibility.
The lawmakers say that they expect approval by the Senate. It has already been approved, as you mentioned by the House, and Congressman Hunter talked to us earlier. He said that he doesn't want to stop at the last three miles of the border near San Diego. He thinks about 250 miles of the border should be fenced. There's about 12 areas that are smugglers' corridors for both aliens and drugs. He wants those areas fenced. He says the would be about a half billion dollars, money he says would well worth it -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian, reporting from along the Mexican border.
Later here in the broadcast, I'll be talking with a leading congressmen about those shocking holes in border security, not only in California but in fact along all of our borders, both north and south, and how to better protect this country. I'll be talking with the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, James Sensenbrenner, who is a sponsor of the Real I.D. Act.
I'll also be talking with three leaders of the Latino and Hispanic community about the escalating crisis over the invasion of illegal aliens in this country and our need for border security. All three, by the way, say I'm anti-immigrant, not anti-illegal immigration. We'll be discussing those diverging points of view.
As we've reported extensively here, communities all over this country are suffering from the impact of that illegal alien invasion. Taxpayers everywhere are bearing huge additional costs, but Congress is taking little, if any, action to address the crisis.
Christine Romans is here and has the report for us -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, 4,000 illegal aliens every day enter this country, most of them from Mexico. Those illegals are spreading to nearly every state, but most of the men and women who represent those states are doing nothing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): Two things motivate lawmakers in Washington above all else: money and votes. That's why Washington has been paralyzed in immigration reform debate.
Traditional competing interests have combined to serve big businesses' addition to cheap labor and both parties' hunger for 12 million potential voters. Even as those illegal aliens are knocking American citizens off the lowest rungs of the economic ladder.
Black congressional leaders want to build a coalition with Hispanics.
TERRY ANDERSON, MECHANIC/RADIO HOST: The thing that angers me the most about it is the black leaders aren't saying one word. The Congressional Black Caucus has sold us out, totally sold out the black community by pushing for more and more legalization of illegal aliens who aren't supposed to be here in the first place.
ROMANS: The Congressional Black Caucus doesn't have an official position on illegal immigration, no official position despite the fact that 42 percent of low-income African-Americans are in direct competition with illegal aliens for their jobs.
Both political parties are divided on the issue of illegal immigration. For example, unlike most Democrats, Hillary Clinton has proclaimed she is opposed to illegal immigration, and Republicans are split, as well, and the divide is widening.
President Bush touts amnesty for illegal aliens, but more Republicans are now expressing concern about national security at our borders, which are all but wide open.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Now, there have been consistent voices on this issue. Congressman Tom Tancredo leads the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, which has tripled in size in the past year. They are working to see that our immigration laws are enforced.
Overall, one congressional insider tells me this is a case, Lou, of the elites versus the everyday Americans. Polls consistently show popular support for enforcing the immigration laws on the books. It's a wonder that those people in Washington who are so interested in polls aren't paying attention to these. DOBBS: It's really a striking statement that you just made in terms of the elites, because this is a question of arrogant elites, who are absolutely looking at public opinion poll after public opinion poll, 70 percent or better, absolutely insisting that border security be enforced, that immigration laws be enforced.
Meanwhile, corporate America continues to feed, to exploit the illegal aliens in this country while working men and women are having their wages depressed by the most reasonable estimate I've seen, $200 billion a year. This is an issue that is going to have to be dealt with, one hopes sooner rather than later.
Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.
CNN has just learned that famed attorney Johnnie Cochran has died. We're going now to Ted Rowlands for the very latest -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, CNN is just confirming that, indeed, Johnnie Cochran has lost his battle with a long illness and has passed away, passed away today at some point. CNN has confirmed it from multiple sources, and we just got a statement from O.J. Simpson.
Of course Johnnie Cochran was the leader of the dream team that represented O.J. Simpson, which ultimately ended in an acquittal against -- with the murder charges against Simpson. O.J. Simpson said, "I loved him as a good Christian man and a great lawyer." That from O.J. Simpson just a few moments ago, confirming that Johnnie Cochran, famed attorney, has passed away today.
We are still working on more details, but we can confirm that Johnnie Cochran is dead -- Lou.
DOBBS: And Ted will have more details for us as this -- as they become available. Ted Rowlands reporting. Thank you.
Returning now to the top story of the evening, the crisis over illegal immigration in this country. While most members of Congress are ignoring the escalating crisis over illegal aliens and illegal immigration, some state and local lawmakers are taking action on their own.
One of those states is Virginia. Today, Governor Mark Warner signed a bill that would deny public benefits to illegal aliens. Virginia now joins Arizona as the only two states in this country to introduce such legislation.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An estimated 100,000 illegal aliens live in Virginia, and the number continues to grow. Virginia delegate David Albo sponsored the bill that prohibits state and local money from being used to provide services to illegal aliens. DAVID ALBO, VIRGINIA HOUSE OF DELEGATES: Property taxes have gone up 70 percent in five years. And the citizens and my voters are completely and utterly outraged. And what they get even more outraged from is, not only is the government taking their money, saying they need it, but now we want to find out that they want to take the taxpayers' money and give it to illegal aliens. It drives people nuts.
SYLVESTER: Virginians will have to prove they're in the country legally in order to receive housing, food and state Medicaid assistance. The law does not apply to emergency care or basic education. Illegal aliens under the age every 19 are exempted.
Arlington, Virginia, and other jurisdictions failed to get Governor Mark Warner to exclude them from the law, arguing it erodes local authority.
WALTER TEJADA, ARLINGTON COUNTY BOARD MEMBER: This law erodes our local authority. We know best our community. In Arlington County, alone, about one third, one third of our population is foreign-born. We think we know our community best and how to best serve it.
SYLVESTER: But public opinion in Virginia has been solidly against providing services to illegal residents. The legislation passed the Virginia House 85-9, and the Senate unanimously.
JACK MARTIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: People are concerned that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that should be taken by our country's poorest people that are competing for the same jobs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The law takes effect on January 1, 2006. And the governor's office will ask the Virginia Latino Advisory Commission to make sure the law is implemented fairly and does not imposition heavy costs on local governments -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, I found it interesting that Mr. Tejada referred to his constituents, a third of them being foreign-born. And this legislation has no concern or direction toward where one is born, but whether one is legally in the United States, correct?
SYLVESTER: That is correct. I mean, this legislation is clearly focusing on illegal immigration, not people who are here legally in the country and legally in this case in Virginia.
DOBBS: Lisa Sylvester, thank you, reporting from Washington.
In New Mexico, recruiters for Albuquerque public schools and several other districts will be looking for new teachers in an unlikely place, Mexico. That's right, New Mexico's taxpayers are now funding a state-sponsored trip to Mexico in late April to recruit teachers. The goal is to recruit Mexican teachers to come to the United States to teach New Mexico's students in American public schools, of course, in a language other than English.
New Mexico's school districts say they are currently facing a critical shortage of licensed bilingual teachers in a state whose immigrant population more than doubled over the past decade. There are already more than 1,600 licensed bilingual teachers in the state of New Mexico, but state officials say they don't meet the demand, which is rising. The Mexican national teachers would be allowed to stay in the United States for three years.
Still ahead here, outsourcing your safety. A major American air carrier exporting critically important work to a foreign company to save money. And they say it's all domestic business.
And the fight for the life of Terri Schiavo on her 12th day without food or water. Tonight, why some say her family's efforts to keep her alive have gained new momentum.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Delta Airlines today became the latest carry to outsource its maintenance work to another country. That's right, foreign citizens will soon be performing maintenance on aircraft flown in the United States by a U.S. air carrier. Delta Airlines says the move will costs as many as 2,000 Americans their jobs.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Delta Airlines is going north of the border in search of cheaper labor. Delta awarding a contract for heavy maintenance work on its planes to ACE Aviation Holdings, also known as Air Canada.
Avborne of Miami will be picking up a piece of the contract work for some of Delta's older aircraft. Delta joining the ranks of United, Northwest Airlines, Alaska Air and U.S. Airways in outsourcing maintenance work to save money. And that worries the inspectors.
LINDA GOODRICH, V.P., FAA INSPECTORS UNION: The best way to describe it -- and I don't want to be sensational, but we believe right now they are playing Russian roulette with the public's safety in dealing with aviation safety.
TUCKER: Delta, though, says it feels pressured. And in a memo to its employees, the head of the technical operations says, "Many airlines have already taken the steps that Delta is taking today. And I believe many more will follow."
Delta's move means up to 2,000 highly-skilled workers will lose their jobs, which some analysts see as just the point.
RICHARD ABOULAFIA, AVIATION CONSULTANT: Moves like this are very good for the long term because they allow you to pressure the people who provide your maintenance.
TUCKER: Delta lost $5 billion last year. Outsourcing its maintenance work is expected to save Delta $240 million.
Since 1988, the number of foreign repair stations doing work for American carriers has risen 325 percent, according to the AFL-CIO Transportation and Trades Department. And that's a trend which is raising concerns with those charged with assuring the safety of our airlines.
Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And our quote of the day tonight comes from a Delta spokesman. When we asked Delta about the decision to export this critically important maintenance work to Canada, Delta's response was telling.
"The work in Canada is domestic. Because it's North America, that is part of our domestic operation." Now, that's worth repeating.
A U.S. company exporting work to a foreign country, in this case Canada, saying the work in Canada is domestic. Our quote of the day.
As we have reported, cheap foreign labor is also devastating American textile workers. Cheap Chinese textile imports are flooding into this country now at an ever-increasing rate, even more so after global quotas expired. But tonight the White House is declining to take any action and declining to restrict Chinese exports to this country in any way.
Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez today said the White House has only just started to monitor the situation and needs more facts. Well, we've been monitoring the situation for quite some time on this broadcast. And if we can be helpful to the Bush administration, we'd like to provide a few facts. Among them, hundreds of thousands of American jobs have already been lost, and will continue to be lost because of the administration's misguided so-called free trade policies that are costing those jobs.
An important milestone for the U.S. space program today, we're pleased to report. In the very early hours of this morning, NASA moved the Shuttle Discovery from the hangar to the vehicle assembly building, a quarter mile away.
That short journey is the first sign that NASA is ready to move ahead with the first shuttle launch since the Columbia disaster more than two years ago. The next step for the Shuttle Discovery will be to have its rockets boosters, both of them, and a newly designed fuel tank attached. NASA has scheduled the Discovery launch for sometime in mid-May.
Coming up next here, closing a 3.5-mile hole in a fence along our border with Mexico. I'll be talking with a leading congressman who is demanding that the federal government take action to ensure border security. He's our guest here next.
And then, a new appeal for the life of Terri Schiavo. Why her parents say they have new hope that Florida will take action to keep their daughter alive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congressman James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin and Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for Immigrations and Customs Enforcement Michael Garcia today announced the arrest of 21 criminal illegal aliens. Those illegal aliens all arrested in the state of Wisconsin were in hiding, trying to avoid deportation.
Michael Garcia had been scheduled to be our guest this evening. Although he initially agreed to join us, he was unable, we're sad to report tonight, to make it. We hope he will soon be able to join us here.
Meanwhile, fortunately, Congressman Sensenbrenner, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, is able to join us tonight. And as we've reported, he and three other leading congressmen today traveling to the border with Mexico. They're demanding that the U.S. government seal a three-mile hole in the border fence.
Congressman Sensenbrenner is the author, the sponsor of the Real ID Act on border security, joining us from San Diego tonight.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: Lou, good being here.
DOBBS: First, let me ask you, is it -- in terms of the legislation, the Real ID Act, are you more hopeful today than the last time we talked that it will actually see its way into law?
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I hope that the Senate will do the right thing in passing the Real ID Act. And what you see behind me is a single fence with people on top of it.
One of the things the Real ID Act does is to build a double fence where there will be a path that the Border Patrol can run cars and SUVs on, between 40 and 50 miles an hour, to catch illegal aliens who jump over the first fence before they get to the second fence. West of here, that kind of a fence has worked, and it stopped the 10 murders a year that have occurred on the old segment of the border, and 300 drug runs in trucks per month have been stopped by that fence.
We need to complete the fence. And the way to do it is to pass the Real ID Act and to have the Senate do the right thing.
DOBBS: Congressman, let me ask you, that fence behind you, with all of its achievements and other fences across the border where they've been put in place, have been effective. The Border Patrol supports closing that gap, yet it's been there for almost two decades.
What is the real reason it hasn't been done? The government has plenty of money. It could be done at the drop of a hat, couldn't it?
SENSENBRENNER: The real reason is unending litigation. If one agency finally signs off, then there's a lawsuit that another agency has got to deal with the environmental issues.
Well, I've been wandering around here for the better part of the last hour and a half. This is no pristine pure environmental area. The illegals that come across the border every night have turned this thing into a dump, garbage dump, and an open-air toilet.
And I think the way that we deal with this issue is simply complete the fence, re-deploy the Border Patrol so that they can be more effective in dealing with illegal entries. Otherwise -- you know, just basically override the people who support keeping an open border that are chanting behind me.
DOBBS: In point of fact, a lot of political games are being played. That fence standing is a symbol with the hole in it.
Here's a thought. Why not have the U.S. attorney general or the solicitor general counter-sue those environmental groups that are trying to stop the construction of that fence and charge them for the cost of the damage to the environment for the crossing of three million illegal aliens last year, for the impact on the western states in particular, which is also suffering a severe drought? The impact on the economy is inestimable, isn't it, Congressman?
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I think that you can't have homeland security without border security. And obviously this is a place that smugglers use not only to bring people across the border, but to bring drugs across the border and gang members across the border. This is a public safety problem that impacts every American, even Americans who live as far away from the Mexican border as my constituents in Wisconsin.
DOBBS: Well, speaking of Wisconsin and those arrests that were announced, the arrested made in your state, 21 of those criminals -- illegal aliens criminals that were arrested, along with the addition of 500 Border Patrol men, ICE says that it's absolutely a coincidence that that's occurring, first in your state over the weekend, adding 500 border patrolmen in the same week that the Minuteman Project is set to go into operation. Do you think that's a coincidence?
SENSENBRENNER: No, it's not a coincidence, and the American public is extremely frustrated at the fact that we are not having effective border security. Look, it is illegal to enter the United States without going through a port of entry and being checked by our Immigration and Customs officials. It's also illegal to enter Mexico without being checked by the Mexican Immigration and Customs officials.
The time has come to enforce the law. And people who aren't breaking the law have no reason to fear in going through a legal, lawful port of entry and getting properly inspected before they are admitted into the United States.
DOBBS: What do you make of President Vicente Fox's statement last week, if I could ask, Mr. Chairman. He said, referring to the fences along our borders -- no country that is proud of itself should build walls. What's your response to that statement? He calls it discriminatory, in addition.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I wish we didn't have to -- well, first of all, it's not discriminatory, because there are a lot of people who enter our country illegally that come from countries other than Mexico. The second thing is that one of the elements of sovereignty of any country is to be able to secure the borders, and determine who is admitted as a guest and under what conditions. And I think the president of Mexico expects that of people who visit Mexico, he should be respectful of the United States respecting that of people who visit our country.
DOBBS: And Congressman, I just love the concept of being discriminatory in the case of who crosses your border legally and illegally. It seems clear to me, at least, that the discrimination is against those who are trying to do what is right, enter the country legally, whether they're applying for residency or naturalization themselves.
Congressman Sensenbrenner, we all wish you the very best of luck. We thank you for your efforts. And we appreciate your time here on our broadcast.
SENSENBRENNER: Thanks, Lou. And it's time for the Senate to do the right thing and pass the bill.
DOBBS: Congressman James Sensenbrenner, thank you.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight -- about that coincidence of the Border Patrol and ICE that we're referring to, do you think the Department of Homeland Security's 500 additional Border Patrol agents that they put in the state of Arizona this week is in direct response to the activities of the Minuteman Project?
Yes or no, cast you vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts."
Bill Pellechia of Ft. Myers, Florida says, "Why do I have to take me shoes off at airports when anyone can infiltrate our borders at anytime? The DHS is an inept behemoth that for the sake of us all must be reigned in."
John Smart in Lose Angeles, "Those who employ illegal aliens should be arrested. Period. They are just as responsible as the federal government and the illegals themselves."
And T. Jones from Gainesville, Florida, "After 30 odd years in the classroom teaching young Americans the language and culture of another people, one thing was, and still is clear to me: no one ever became fluent in language a while speaking language b. It's what some would call a no-brainer. Bilingual education was a fraud and a farce from the outset. It only serves to harm the very young people we want to help." Harry Dune of Sarasota, Florida, "Keep up the hard hitting reports on outsourcing jobs and on illegal aliens. You are the only major newsman who has the courage to challenge the government and big business on these issues."
Now, aside from the nice words, I want to say one thing to you what Joanna said, the fact is we are criticizing the U.S. government and big business -- that is, the establishment in this country -- which bears direct responsibility for our immigration crisis and for outsourcing of American jobs. We appreciate you noticing.
Joanna Thompson from Bloomfield, Nebraska, "All of the previous legal immigrants had to learn English and schools taught in English. The current ones should be required to do so" as well. "The pandering to a bunch of illegals for the sake of big business is out of control."
Please send is "Your Thoughts" to loudobbs@cnn.com. Each of you whose e-mails is read on this broadcast receives a copy of my book, "Exporting American," loudobbs.com. Also if you'd like to receive our e-mail newsletter sign up on our Web site, again, loudobbs.com.
A new study tonight confirms what many of us have suspected for a long time that faculties at our country's universities tend to lean just a bit to the political left. Seventy two percent of the collegiate faculty across the country, say in the most recent poll that, yes, they are liberal, while 15 percent acknowledge that they are conservative. The difference is even more pronounced at the nation's so-called elite schools, where 87 percent of the faculty say they are liberal, only 13 percent say they're conservative.
The federal government may not be able to tell you where the millions of illegal aliens in this country are or what they're doing, but it can, I'm pleased to tell you, tell whether you're alive or not. It may make a mistake initially, but it has the capacity to correct it. A Pennsylvania woman has just received a letter from the Social Security Administration informing her that in fact she is not dead. The letter came after the woman tried to file a tax return and was rejected. The IRS said its records showed she is deceased. It turns out the women's Social Security number had been mixed up with a number of someone who unfortunately did die.
Coming up next, the fight over Terri Schiavo's fate and why her family is still hopeful tonight that the state of Florida may step in.
And we'll be talking about a decision to share a sponsor list, a supporter list for commercial reasons.
Also ahead, what is sure to be a heated debate about the escalating immigration crisis in this country. Three of the most out spoken leaders of the Latino and Hispanic immigrant community join me.
And a long-awaited report on U.N. Secretary Kofi -- Secretary- General Kofi Annan's role in the U.N. Oil For Food scandal. Will Annan resign? That story is coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Jesse Jackson joined the family of Terri Schiavo outside hers hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida today. Reverend Jackson urged state lawmakers to pass emergency legislation trying to keep Terri Schiavo alive.
Susan Candiotti joins us now from Pinellas Park.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou.
A sense of urgency not waning among protesters here. The majority of people you see are indeed siding with the Schindler family who are trying to have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted. However, this days they appear no closer to their goal. Terri's mother again pinning her hopes on the Florida legislature who you might recall last week narrowly defeated a bill that would have required a feeding tube -- to prevent feeding tubes from being removed unless a patient's wishes are in writing. Now, Florida Senate sources tell CNN there is virtually no chance that that bill could be taken up again before next week. The question, of course, is whether Terri could last that long.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S MOTHER: I'd like to appeal to the Florida senators to please, please pass this new bill. Terri is still fighting. She's still alive. She's trying with all her might. She does not want to die. I'm begging them to please fight and give Terri a chance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: The Schindler family did get a moral boost this day from Reverend Jesse Jackson who came here to the hospice in an attempt to visit Terri Schiavo with the Schindler's. However, as you might recall, the list of people who get in to see her is regulated by Michael Schiavo, her husband, and Reverend Jackson was not permitted to see her. And we heard from one pro-life support Randall Terry today who said that you could have blown him over with a feather, because usually he and Reverend Jackson are on opposite -- polar opposite sides of various issues.
However, Jackson who opposed federal legislation in the Schiavo case, nevertheless called her situation an injustice. Now, at the same time Jackson was speaking, a man was able to rush past the entrance to the hospice, or at least the outdoor driveway, anyway. As he did, police tasered him. He was arrested. However, he was unhurt.
No word this day from Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, about how she is doing. Terri's brother, however, did complain that Michael Schiavo is not allowing his sister to receive Holy Communion. However, that again is governed by a court order. She was only allowed to receive Holy Communion as a Catholic on two occasions, right before her feeding tube was removed, and again on Easter Sunday.
And finally, Lou, another interesting note this day. We learned that the people who have been donating money to the Schindler cause -- and there have been thousands of them -- their names were sold to -- a mailing list was allowed to be sold to a Web site, which in turn is selling it to various conservative groups. So this again is another example of how people -- about how the Terri Schiavo case is being used by other people to help their own various causes, Lou.
DOBBS: The tragedy expands beyond the -- certainly the immediate family in this case. Susan Candiotti, reporting from Pinellas Park, thank you.
Here are some of the other important stories we're following this evening.
O.J. Simpson's lead defense attorney, Johnnie Cochran, has died at his home in Los Angeles. Cochran had been in a hospice suffering from a neurological disease. He was 67 years old.
First lady Laura Bush set off today on her way to Afghanistan. She is scheduled to spend five hours there. Mrs. Bush will be briefed on plans for educating Afghan women. She will also meet with President Hamid Karzai and with U.S. forces at Bagram Air Base.
A former top official for the Boy Scouts of America has been charged with downloading child pornography. Investigators say they found pictures of children engaging in sex acts on his computer. Douglas Smith is expected to plead guilty when he appears before a federal judge tomorrow in Fort Worth, Texas.
U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan today declared he has no intention of resigning over the multibillion-dollar oil for food scandal. And in responding to a question from CNN's Richard Roth about a highly critical report on the scandal and the role played by Annan's son, Kojo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you feel it's time, for the good of the organization, to step down?
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: Hell, no. I love my son, and I've also expected the highest standards of integrity from him. I am deeply saddened by the evidence to the contrary that has emerged, and particularly by the fact that my son had failed to cooperate fully with the inquiry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Today's report criticized Annan for failing for investigate possible conflicts of interest involving his son, but Annan declared the report cleared him of any wrongdoing.
Coming up next here, the profound impact of millions of illegal aliens entering this country, the impact on our nation's schools, our economy, and our society overall. I'll be joined by three leaders of the Latino and Hispanic community. And two of them, only two of them, say that I'm anti-immigrant instead of anti-illegal immigration. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported here, the Census Bureau says now more than half the Hispanic and Latino immigrants into this country over the past four years did not complete high school. And yet, illegal immigration, illegal aliens with little or no education, are taking work away from American citizens.
To what degree, that is arguable, but the plain and simple facts are that illegal immigration is creating great strains and stresses on this economy and this society.
And joining me tonight here in New York, Cesar Perales. He's president and general counsel for the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, who says he is not surprised by these findings.
And it's good to have you with us, Cesar.
From Las Vegas, Brent Wilkes. He's the national executive director of the League of United Latin-American Citizens. He says that if uneducated immigrants are coming to fill jobs Americans don't want, that is a positive thing for the economy and the country.
And it's good to have you with us, at least at a distance, Brent.
From Washington, D.C. Lisa Navarrete, vice president of the National Council of La Raza. She says we need to focus efforts on improving educational opportunities for Hispanics.
Lisa, it is good to have you with us, there, at least, in Washington, D.C.
And we thank you all for being here to talk about and shed light on a very critically important issue.
Cesar, let me begin with you. The idea that half, basically half of the immigrants coming into this country, illegally, for the most part, are uneducated. Why are we permitting this to happen?
CESAR PERALES, PUERTO RICAN LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND: Lou, this is the story of America. Our Statue of Liberty beckons the huddled masses, not the huddled people with high school degrees.
I think the reality is that that has been what has stoked the fuel of the economy, these hard-working people who come here to make a life for themselves, for their children. And their children do better than they did educationally, as I'm sure you know.
But this is what America is about, and I think we ought to be proud of that.
DOBBS: I happen to be one of those people who believes that we should be proud of whatever the work is that we do in life, whatever job we have, we should give that great respect. I think in this country there may be some considerable erosion of that.
But let me turn, Lisa, now to you. The fact that we are -- half of the adults immigrating into this country, as has been the case for the past three decades now, lack a high school education, you're not concerned about that?
LISA NAVARRETE, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: Of course we are, and -- but I think that it's important to remember the study (UNINTELLIGIBLE) not -- looked at not only at immigrants, but at all groups, all Hispanics. And we are very concerned about the gap between Hispanics and non-Hispanics in terms of education. And that's why we are in the business of expanding educational opportunities and trying to find policies that will improve educational attainment among all Hispanics.
We need to do a better job of educating all our kids. It's -- this is an education issue, an education reform issue, not an immigration issue.
DOBBS: Do you agree, Brent?
BRENT WILKES, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN-AMERICAN CITIZENS: Absolutely. And what's encouraging is, the second and third generations are doing much better. In fact, second-generation Latino students will be almost as twice as likely to go on to college, and third generation almost three times as likely to go to college.
So things do improve with concerted efforts and programs that can benefit these populations.
DOBBS: All right. Now, if you will, let's put into context the report that we've just seen, the Harvard report, showing in California that Hispanics and African-Americans are literally -- it's a devastating report, showing the number that are dropping out of school.
That combination, with the onset of a group of people here illegally -- We're not talking about immigration, I agree with you, Cesar, and anyone else, whether you believe me or not. I am absolutely pro-immigration. But I want to have a conscious decision by our government as to who will be brought into this country and who will not.
How are we to deal with the situation in which Hispanics, and La Raza, any number of organizations, are doing wonderful work with educating, but they're working at the margin?
Meanwhile, the public school systems, that are inundated with illegal immigration, who are losing their battles, if they're fighting fiercely -- I certainly hope they are, to keep those students in -- we're creating huge problems to our society.
PERALES: Lou, you know, a few generations ago, you'd be talking about the Irish flooding our schools, and breaking down the educational standards. I think what Brent just pointed out is, that, Latinos do well, that the next generation does better than the last, and this is the way America has always worked.
I think you ask the questions -- the first one alludes to the fact that we all would hope that you would join us in creating good immigration reform. I think we all want that. So, I don't think we differ there. I think where we differ is your expectation that somehow today's immigrants are not going to do as well as yesterday's.
DOBBS: Well, actually I think that -- my concern is more specific -- and I appreciate the invitation, I'll be glad to join you anytime on that. The fact is that we are watching our school systems -- and it's empirical at base -- we're watching test scores just fall like rocks, we're watching dropout rates that are immense, and we're tolerating it as a society. And we are seeing some resistance, and I'm not going to suggest that it's any one of your organizations, folks, I'm just saying to you that too many people, it seems to me, are coming to this as a racial issue rather than as a social, an American issue, that's fundamental to understanding what is in our national interest. We're not teaching black kids, we're not teaching Hispanics, we're not teaching white kids.
PERALES: That's what just Lisa said a moment ago. That's her position, and I quite agree with her. This is an issue...
DOBBS: Lisa, why don't you talk to me yourself.
NAVARRETE: Well, I...
DOBBS: Cesar is taking over for you.
NAVARRETE: Well, I would be happy to defer to Cesar, as I always do, but -- it is exactly right. This is an education issue. We're not doing a good job of educating our kids. A lot of our kids are being left behind. And that's why -- one of the reasons we supported the No Child Left Behind Act. We want standards, we want ways to help children, and the No Child Left Behind was the first one to help English language learners, also, in this process. We need to do a better job of educating all our kids. This is an educational issue, and we will join with you, with Cesar, and with Brent to make this happen.
DOBBS: Well, let's -- we'll even broaden it, perhaps, a little more here, as we continue this discussion. I'll be back with these three folks talking about very important issues involved in the crisis of illegal immigration, and a crisis that's in some ways every bit as profound and related, a crisis in our public educational system in this country. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me here once more, Cesar Perales, he's President General Council Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund; Brent Wilkes, National Executive Director of the League of the United Latin- American Citizens; Lisa Navarrete, Vice President of the National Council of La Raza.
Lisa, let me go to you real quickly; I've got one more thing -- one more issue -- that I think we really need to hit on. You said -- you were quoted as saying, "Dobbs has become, in a very short time, a have prominent, very vociferous member of the anti-immigration coalition."
You didn't mean it, did you?
NAVARRETE: Well, um, Mr. Dobbs...
DOBBS: Call me Lou. You can cuss me, but you can call me Lou if you're going to cuss me.
NAVARRETE: Well, what we're asking you, sir, is just to be fair and balanced. I think the issue is that you have to find -- we are also anti-illegal immigration. We do not want people subject to exploitation and abuse and harassment, which they are subject to. But we also believe that there are benefits to immigration to this country, and you don't talk about those things. You may say you support legal immigrants, but we never hear the good side and the positive contributions that immigrants make. That's what I was talking about.
DOBBS: Lisa, I feel better about that since I know -- you have exempted me from being someone's comrade in a coalition. Let me be clear again, as Cesar and I have discussed. I'm not anti-immigration, I'm pro-immigration. I am anti-illegal immigration, and I am certainly anti-porous borders and I just don't think the country can run that risk.
Let me ask each of you, and Lisa, let me begin with you. As a condition preceding for immigration reform, would you agree to absolute border security for this country?
NAVARRETE: We support more resources at the border, but complete comprehensive immigration reform has to go beyond border security.
DOBBS: No, no, I understand. But I think that we
NAVARRETE: But we -- we -- we put more....
DOBBS: ...all have to come together the national interest is at stake here.
NAVARRETE: We believe a country has a right to protect its borders and we support more resources at the border.
DOBBS: I'm going to take that as sort of a yes. Brent Wilkes?
WILKES: No, we certainly don't, Lou. We think that's a delay tactic. Let's address this issue right up front...
DOBBS: Who can delay it? Because of you and all of our friends here....
WILKES: ...you're never going to secure the border, Lou. You never are. You could build as big a wall as you want.
DOBBS: This is America, partner, we can do anything we set our mind to.
WILKES: Boy, you're wrong about that. It hasn't worked yet.
DOBBS: We'll see.
PERALES: I would agree with you in principle, except I fear the same thing Brent does, that you would spend months and months saying our borders are not yet secure and we'll put off the rest of immigration reform.
DOBBS: If the people in Washington, ballpark is selling out from votes to Hispanics -- Hispanic groups...
PERALES: You're taking that...
DOBBS: ...let me finish -- and they're selling out to big business who are exploiting illegal aliens, and there's no -- does any one of you disagree with any statement I made? I mean, that's what the situation is. Why couldn't you all come together and really have an impact on education, on border security, and just declare it, your support for it.
PERALES: For border security? I'm prepared to declare it. I'm sure everybody else is.
NAVARRETE: And we want support for fixing our broken immigration system, and that means comprehensive immigration reform. We've stood with business, with labor, with religious groups...
DOBBS: Well, you know...
NAVARRETE: ...with our fellow civil rights organizations and advocacy organizations. We are in favor of comprehensive immigration reform. Lou, we need to look for solutions.
DOBBS: We're flat out of time.
I agree with you, Lisa, and we're going to ask you, and Brent, and Cesar to come back soon, and a lot of other folks, as we continue the conversation. Thanks for being with us here tonight.
The results of our poll tonight -- 96 percent of you say the Department of Homeland Security 500 additional border patrol agents is directly in response to the Minuteman Project. We thank you for being with us tonight. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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