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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Pope Clings to Life; Activist Bay Buchanan Supports Minuteman Project

Aired April 01, 2005 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, Pope John Paul II's medical condition has deteriorated sharply. The pontiff is near death. We'll have the latest for you from Rome. We'll also be joined by three of this country's leading authorities on papal affairs to talk about the pope, what is next for the Catholic Church and American Catholics.
The largest neighborhood watch project ever is underway in Arizona tonight to protect our border with Mexico. Hundreds of Minuteman volunteers are there to support the U.S. border patrol. My guests tonight include Dave Buchanan of Team America, who says the volunteers are great Americans. And the ACLU's Eleanor Eisenberg, who says some of the volunteers could use violence against illegal aliens.

And the illegal alien giveaway, the shocking loopholes that show illegal aliens how to obtain U.S. driver's licenses and car insurance, all without offering any proof of their legal status in this country.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight the pope is in grave condition. The pontiff is barely hanging on to his life. The pope's health worsened sharply today when his breathing became shallow and his heart and kidneys began to fell. At one point, several Italian newspapers reported that the pontiff dead, but the Vatican denied that.

We begin our coverage tonight with Walter Rodgers in Rome.

Walt, what can you tell us about the pope's condition this evening?

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

The pope, John Paul II, clearly appears to be hovering very perilously between life and death. For the past 24 hours, the Vatican has been preparing the world for the end.

At a mass at St. Peter's earlier today, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the vicar of Rome, said his holiness, John Paul II, has already seen and touched Christ. That's a very grave and ominous statement.

Then he went on to say -- other Vatican officials went on to say that the pope earlier had been told of the gravity of his situation. And we were told then that the pope asked that the scripture be read to him, the so-called scripture of the third hour. This is the period where Christ on the cross, as he was about to die, tradition holds it was the third hour. And that was the scripture John Paul II asked to have read to him.

Even more interestingly, cardinals, more than a few of them have come to the pope's bedside as if to say good-bye.

The most interesting thing is the greatest hopefulness seems to come from inside the Vatican but from the tens of thousands of people in St. Peter's Square holding candlelight vigils, down there praying. They are the ones who seem to have the highest hope for the pope at this hour, believing their prayers may yet have an effect -- Lou.

DOBBS: Walter Rodgers, thank you.

The precise details of the pope's medical condition remain unclear this evening, but a senior Vatican official left no doubt that the pope's death is imminent.

Joining me now is our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, it appears as though the pope is unable to fight this latest infection. As Walt Rodgers reported, not only in the Vatican, but millions of people around the world praying for his recovery. Are there -- is there any medical possibility for his recovery?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, most doctors will never say never, Lou, but it seems very, very remote at this point. There is some data. There is some science to back that up.

You know, people who develop septic shock, which is basically an overwhelming infection of the body, have about -- you can see there it leads to low blood pressure, and subsequently low blood flow to the organs.

In the best of conditions, that is to say a healthy person who is healthy before the shock, and is in a good intensive care unit has about a 20 percent to 30 percent chance of recovering from that. The pope is obviously not either one of those things. He is at an advanced age, a well-known medical history and is at his apartment in the Vatican. It has good medical facilities, but is not in an intensive care unit -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. The idea, Sanjay, that the pontiff has chosen not to go to the hospital, but rather remain at the Vatican, is there any medical reason for that judgment, other than perhaps the -- what may seem obvious, that the pontiff has decided to spend his last hours at the Vatican?

GUPTA: Yes, I think you're right, Lou. I think that's probably the most likely reason. The other reason medically could be that he could, in fact have been just too unstable in terms of his blood pressure and heart rate to even be transported. That's another possibility, as well. But from everything that we're hearing, it's probably more the former reason: he just wanted to not go to the hospital another time there, Lou.

DOBBS: Sanjay Gupta, thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

DOBBS: The White House, of course, is following developments at the Vatican tonight. The White House today declared the pope as an inspiration for the 16 million American Catholics.

White House correspondent Dana Bash has our report -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the president is watching and waiting just as the rest of us are. His aides say that they are giving him some regular updates. They have been throughout the day on the condition of the pope, and they really started doing that last night when the pope's condition took a turn for the worse.

Now, here at the White House today, the president's spokesman said that Mr. Bush and the first lady are praying for the Holy Father. They said that the outpouring of love and concern from so many millions of Americans is a testimony to his greatness.

Now the White House says it's inappropriate at this time to talk about whether he will go to a funeral, but privately, Bush aides are saying that they fully expect Mr. Bush to go, if and when that happens at this point.

Now, it's interesting to note that John Paul II made history at the White House, because he was the first pope, Lou, to come to the White House. That was in 1979. He met with President Carter.

But as for President Bush, his relationship with the pope has been strained for the same reason Mr. Bush has been strained with other world leaders, and that is over Iraq and the war there.

The president was at the Vatican in June, and he got a papal scolding of sorts over Iraq and particularly over the abuses at Abu -- Abu Ghraib prison, but it's interesting to note they are almost entirely in sync on social issues. On abortion, the president has adopted a term, a phrase that comes from the Vatican, and that is the culture of life, working towards a culture of life. That's sort of his vernacular for the president in his stance against abortion, and he picked that up from the Vatican.

So Lou, they are certainly watching here at the White House. And the president, again, getting regular updates as to the condition of the pope -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana Bash, thank you.

Churches across the country today holding special masses for the pope. In New York, Cardinal Edward Egan described the pontiff as an extraordinary hero for our times. Adoara Udoji reports now from St. Patrick's Cathedral in midtown Manhattan -- Adoara.

ADOARA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

We've been watching a steady stream of folks coming in and out of St. Patrick's Cathedral, which as you know is really the center of Catholic life here in New York City.

Now, archdiocese officials say, although this is a very busy church on any given day, that clearly because of the John Paul II's condition, his gravely ill condition, they have seen far more people today than usual, people going inside, lighting candles, saying prayers and also participating in mass. There's a mass that just began at about 5:30. And that was actually a regularly scheduled mass.

And we found people from all over, in fact. We found folks from Canada. They said they felt compelled to come in to St. Patrick's and pay tribute to the pope that they called a great man. And we found some New Yorkers who came from Long Island, also coming in to pay tribute to the pope and to pray for his well-being.

Also, as you mentioned, the archdiocese Cardinal Egan did speak today. He said that he holds the pope, like so many, in a very special place in his heart. He is well aware that there are many Catholics, four million here in New York City, who want to maybe come in and worship and say a prayer, light a candle for the pope. And that's why they have extended hours. The church usually closing at 8:45. It will close tonight at 10 -- Lou.

DOBBS: Adoara, thank you very much.

Let's go now to Rome, where it is a little after 1 in the morning, and turn to our CNN chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour.

Christiane, lots of confusion today about the state of the pope's health. What is the mood there among what we are told to be just about 70,000 people gathered in St. Peter's Square?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a huge crowd, Lou, and people have come. And I've been in the square talking to people, talking and asking them why they here -- they have come here and what their feelings are. And to a person, they have said they have come to pray for the pope.

They say this is a very sad moment. They want to give him comfort, they say, in his last moments. And they really do believe that this is the end for this pope.

He's had 26 years on the throne of St. Peter, the longest-serving pope, the most-traveled pope, the first pope ever to come to the Vatican, a man they say of great moral stature and great charisma. And they remember, also, his singular role in the collapse of communism in the early '80s, supporting the Solidarity movement, the first non-Italian pope in 455 years, and his great sort of physical stature on this earth, a great part of their lives.

People we've talked to who say they've known no one else. He's been part of their life, people who are in their 20s right now.

So they've come here basically to say good-bye. They don't believe that there's any hope anymore, that his condition is so weakened that they have just come to give comfort.

In terms of actual knowledge about his precise condition right now, I have to say that we don't know any more than we've been told officially a few hours ago from the Vatican spokesman, which is basically that his breathing is irregular and shallow, that his blood pressure is unstable, that his organs are gradually failing.

But, of course, there was one moment where the Italian press reported that he had slipped into a coma, he was brain dead, that he was actually dead, and the Vatican came out and denied that.

And, of course, we are not reporting that. We're simply going with what the Vatican is saying right now.

But people here feel a great sense of sadness. And for that many people in Vatican Square behind me, you would imagine that there would be sort of a hum of noise. But there isn't. It's almost silent. It's a very, very somber moment.

There were prayers. The official rosary was recited several hours ago. Huge screens set up in Vatican Square for people to see that happening. And the archbishop of Vatican City, the vicar of Vatican City, told the crowd that this evening or tonight Christ will open his doors to Pope John Paul.

So there is a sense that this is the end. And people have come to say good-bye -- Lou.

DOBBS: Christiane, thank you. As you say, several Italian news agencies and Reuters reporting incorrectly on the state of pontiff's health. Christiane, where will the -- the Vatican itself will be, of course, the official source for any suggestion of a change in the pope's condition. What will be the exact sequence there, as best you understand it?

AMANPOUR: As best we understand it, the tradition is formalized, and has been over centuries. What will happen is that one of the cardinals will recite his name three times, his birth name, Karol, three times, then his ring and seal will be broken, his papal apartments will be sealed, and then his death will be announced to the public. And thereafter begins the period of mourning.

Officially, it's nine days of mourning. And the burial -- the funeral, rather, must happen within four to six days. Then, within 15 to 20 days after his death, the cardinals must gather in Rome to elect a new pope.

So there's a very elaborate process that will get underway once he formally passes away. And that is a process that has been thought out and has been in place for so many, many centuries of this papacy -- Lou.

DOBBS: Christiane, thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour. And, of course, we will be returning to the Vatican as the situation warrants. Thank you.

Still ahead here tonight, three leading authorities on papal affairs of the Catholic Church join me to talk about the pope, the impact on the church and American Catholics.

Also ahead here tonight, 1,000 American volunteers gathering to patrol the Arizona border with Mexico. Bay Buchanan calls those volunteers great Americans. Eleanor Eisenberg of the ACLU is concerned about violence against illegal aliens. They are both our guests tonight.

And illegal alien giveaway, why so many illegal aliens in this country have been entitled to benefits and rights of citizenship without proof of legal status.

Those stories, a great deal more, including our consistent coverage on the Vatican and the condition of the pope tonight.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More than 1,000 American citizens tonight are gathered along the Arizona border, preparing to do what the federal government has failed to do... secure our border with Mexico. The organizers of the Minuteman Project say that they will report sightings of illegal aliens to the authorities. Critics, including Mexican President Fox and President Bush, have called the Minuteman volunteers vigilantes.

Casey Wian reports from Tombstone, Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The minutemen came from places like Pennsylvania and Arkansas, far from the Mexican border, to do a job they say the government won't do.

JOE MCCUTCHEN, MINUTEMAN PROJECT VOLUNTEER: Our federal government, most especially President Bush, who has been remiss in upholding his constitutional sworn duties. And we hope that he will see the necessity of securing our borders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need five minutemen only.

WIAN: Hundreds of citizen volunteers stood in line waiting to register and receive instructions from project organizers. This month they'll spread out across 20 miles of Arizona border and watch for illegal aliens attempting to cross.

The minutemen say they won't confront or detain anyone, but will report suspected illegal aliens to the Border Patrol. Even so, President Bush and many law enforcement officials have criticized the volunteers. LAWRENCE HEADRICK, MINUTEMAN PROJECT VOLUNTEER: They're saying that the Minuteman Project shouldn't be here because somebody might get hurt. What on earth is happening if we have terrorists coming across the border? What do they think the terrorists have in mind when they come across?

WIAN: This Italian legal immigrant spend seven years becoming a U.S. citizen and now he's a minuteman.

LUCA ZANNE, MINUTEMAN PROJECT VOLUNTEER: Every country should have some borders. And unfortunately, in this country the last few years, this is not happening.

WIAN: Recently, the Department of Homeland Security ordered 500 additional Border Patrol agents to Arizona and denied the deployment was a response to the minutemen.

JAMES GILCHRIST, MINUTEMAN PROJECT FOUNDER: Five hundred Border Patrol agents sent to Arizona for the three months of the summer is grossly insignificant. There should be 2,500 sent.

WIAN: That message was clear to one U.S. congressman who spoke to the volunteers.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: We're saying to our government, please enforce the law. That is not a radical idea, that is not a vigilante idea. It is an American concept, the rule of law.

(APPLAUSE)

WIAN: The minutemen have already succeeded in bringing attention to the issue of illegal immigration. The media presence is unlike anything Tombstone has ever seen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Day one of the Minuteman Project has been peaceful and orderly. Organizers hope it stays that way through the weekend, because that's when actual patrols will begin -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, the number of volunteers that have shown up today in Tombstone, do we have a good reading on that?

WIAN: We have some people involved with the Minuteman Project who estimated 600 earlier today, others estimated up to 1,000. We don't have a hard number, because some of the people pre-registered. But I can tell you, from what I saw, there were several hundred people who showed up here to register today -- Lou.

DOBBS: OK. Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.

That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you support the goals of the Minuteman Project, yes or no? Cast your vote at LOUDOBBS.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Bay Buchanan and her conservative political action committee are in Tombstone to support the Minuteman Project. Buchanan calls the minutemen great Americans.

Eleanor Eisenberg is the director of the ACLU in the state of Arizona. She says she's concerned that those minutemen could use violence against illegal aliens. I'll be talking with both later here in the broadcast.

The Senate next week is now expected to consider a proposal to legalize as many as a million illegal aliens farm workers in this country. Senator Larry Craig of Idaho proposed the amendment. It will be debated as part of the emergency spending bill for the war on terror next week. The measure would allow any farm worker in the United States illegally who has worked 100 days out of the year to gain legal status.

We reported here extensively on the 10 states in this country that give drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. North Carolina is one of those states. But illegal aliens in North Carolina are not only allowed to obtain drivers' licenses, they also are allowed to obtain car insurance without offering any proof of legal status.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): North Carolina has a don't ask, do insure policy. That means all insurance companies have to sell auto insurance to anyone who walks in the door, including those in the country illegally.

RON WOODARD, NC LISTEN: Car insurance turns out to be like a -- like a privilege in a lot of ways. And we shouldn't be giving privileges to people who have broken the law to come to America. And once they get insurance, then that makes it just that much easier to get a driver's license.

SYLVESTER: Car insurance is one of the requirements to get a North Carolina driver's license. Other states give insurers the discretion to turn away customers who are deemed too risky or don't have a track record on driving in the United States.

LORETTA WORTERS, INSURANCE INFORMATION INSTITUTE: You have an underwriter who looks at what risks are with a particular individual. And if an underwriter feels that person is too much of a risk, then they would suggest that they don't write that person.

SYLVESTER: North Carolina's insurance commissioner justifies the law by saying insurance is sold on the vehicle, not to a person.

JIM LONG, NORTH CAROLINA INSURANCE COMMISSIONER: What we're trying to do is get every vehicle on the road in North Carolina, whether you're coming through from Washington going down to Florida, whether you're driving here all the time, to make sure that you do have the auto liability insurance policy in effect to protect those of us who might be run over by you on the highways.

SYLVESTER: But North Carolina has been known for its lax driver laws. It's one of 10 states that don't require licensees to be U.S. residents and one of a few that accept tax identification numbers in lieu of a Social Security number.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: North Carolina has recently changed some of its driver's license procedures. Until last year, it accepted a Mexican matricula card as proof of age and identity. But immigration reform advocates are still fighting in the state legislature to close a number of other loopholes -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.

Still ahead here, that Minuteman Project in Arizona, volunteers supporting the U.S. Border Patrol. My guests tonight are Bay Buchanan of Team America who says those volunteers are great Americans. The ACLU's Eleanor Eisenberg has a different view. They'll be our guests.

And then worldwide prayers for Pope John Paul II, who is near death tonight. You're looking now at pictures, live pictures from Vatican City, where some 70,000 people are holding a vigil. I'll be joined later by three experts on the Catholic Church and the Vatican. We'll be talking about the impact on the pope's failing health on Catholics around this country and the world.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Returning now to the top story of the evening, Pope John Paul II is near death. In a statement, the Vatican said the 84-year-old pontiff's kidney and circulatory system are failing.

Seventy thousand people are now gathered in St. Peter's Square this evening. They're holding a candlelight vigil for the pope. It's 1:25 in the morning in Rome. There are many gathering, of course, in this country, special masses be held as well.

Joining me now from Boston, Reverend John Paris. He's a professor at Boston College. Joining me here in our New York studios, Father Thomas Reese. He's the editor in chief of "America," the national Catholic weekly. And David Van Biema, he's a religion writer for "TIME" magazine.

Thank you all for being with us.

Let me turn to you, if I may first, Reverend, and ask, with all that you have watched from the Vatican, what is your sense of what we can expect over the next 24 hours? Reverend Paris?

REV. JOHN PARIS, PROFESSOR BOSTON COLLEGE: We can expect in the next 24 hours very clearly is going to be a classic Christian death watch. The family has gathered, the close relatives, close associates, and that includes thousands and thousands of Catholics in St. Peter's Square, all awaiting what in fact is the opening into eternal life for a man of great faith. The death will come, there will be great grief, there will be great sadness. But also, in the Christian experience, a great sense of joy, that this journey of life, the journey of a soul has completed its work here and the pope has gone to his eternal rest.

DOBBS: David, as you, obviously a journalist, have been watching what is transpiring at the Vatican, does it seem to you that the Vatican is being more open this time about the pope's condition and about what is going on?

DAVID VAN BIEMA, "TIME" MAGAZINE: I think that the Vatican is being more open. It's not nearly as transparent as American institutions are.

DOBBS: Right.

VAN BIEMA: I don't suppose we may ever know precisely how open the Vatican has been. But by comparison with the past, I would say that it's close to real time.

DOBBS: Is this, Father Reese, a reflection of what Pope John Paul II has been able to accomplish in his papacy, the ability to transform a church to a new level?

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "AMERICA": Oh, absolutely. I think Pope John Paul II has been much more open with the media. And I remember when he was first elected the press office had to go through like three or four levels of bureaucracy before they could get a question up to the pope.

Now, you know, his press person has direct access to him by cell phone at any time day or night. You know, because the pope wanted to be able to respond and be sensitive. And I think, you know, the reports, you know, that we're getting are not absolutely complete, but I think they're much more open than they have been in the past.

DOBBS: Reverend Paris, let me ask you. Pope John Paul II has lived through an extraordinary age in which he has seen the rise of radical Islamist terror throughout -- throughout the world, the fall of Marxist Leninism, the fall of, of course, the Berlin Wall, the freeing of the people of Poland, first of all, his native land, and also Russia and Eastern Europe.

What are your thoughts about his influence on all of those developments?

PARIS: Well, it isn't even a question of what we think. Mr. Gorbachev himself said John Paul II was the single most influential factor in the fall of communism.

He stood with great strength, with great vigor, with great solidarity. He understood the evils of communism. He understood it was materialism, it lacked a spirituality, and he stood against it with all of his strength and all of his energy. And his ability to unite people in faith, to unite people with values, was one of the great sources of the undermining of the communist system throughout Eastern Europe.

DOBBS: Do you agree, father?

REESE: Oh, absolutely, I would agree. And what was extraordinary for us who grew up in the '50s, you know, who lived in schools and, you know, practiced getting under our chairs, you know, for when the bomb came, and lived under this mushroom-shaped cloud, this is the man who helped end, you know, the Cold War. And what was even more extraordinary is he did it in a peaceful manner.

I mean, I'm old enough to remember the people who talked about, you know, we should have a first strike against the Soviet Union, because of these godless communists. This was not a man who supported war as a way of bringing about justice or peace. This was a man who saw a way to bring peace and justice through nonviolent revolution, and he did it.

DOBBS: He did it. But David, he didn't do it without any absence of controversy, both within and without the church, did he?

VAN BIEMA: Well, I think that the -- that the church was probably four square behind his first -- he made two visits to Poland shortly after being made pope. And they were extraordinary visits, because there is no nation more

DOBBS: Divorced (ph) in 1979...

VAN BIEMA: There's no nation more self-consciously both nationalist and Catholic at the same time than Poland. And in some ways, when we look forward to a conclave by choosing this particular man to be the pope, the conclave exhibited an extraordinary prescience in terms of what that might mean on the world stage.

By making those visits, by saying the things he did when he was on those visits and by becoming the patron saint of solidarity effectively, I think that he probably gathered behind him the goodwill of most of the west.

But whether there may have been some divergence was when -- with Jaruzelski who was the Soviet puppet leader, declared martial law in Poland. And the west, or a lot of the west wanted sanctions, the pope declined to go along with that. And there was considerable criticism of him for that. But what he effectively did was to kind of make himself a partner in the process that followed.

REESE: It was in fact considerable embarrassment. At one point, the Reagan White House at one point announced that the pope was supportive of the economic sanctions against Poland, because of the martial law. And the Vatican cleric quickly said no, no, no, we do not support economic sanctions as a way of trying to change a regime, because it punishes the people and doesn't end up changing the regime.

DOBBS: It is interesting to students of the history of the church and to students of history, period, that both Ronald Reagan and the pope were the victims of attempted assassinations in 1981. Subsequently, even though rumors swirled at the time that Russia, the Soviet Union at the time, was behind those assassinations attempts -- rather, the assassination attempt of the pope. To what degree did the enmity between the Catholic Church and Soviet Union, despite Mr. Gorbachev's rather generous assessment of the pope's influence, it was not a warm relationship, was it?

REESE: Oh, no. Communists have been persecuting Christians, killing Catholic priests in Poland and other places for decades. I mean, the church was never glassy -- never approached Communism with rose-colored glasses, quite the contrary.

On the other hand, it was fascinating you mentioned Ronald Reagan. He met with the pope and talked with the pope before he met with Gorbachev. And Reagan's advisers were saying don't trust Gorbachev, he's a communist, don't trust him. So he went and met with the pope and the pope said this is a man you can -- Gorbachev is a man you can do business with. And Reagan believed the pope rather than his advisers and went on to make these deals, which began the collapse of Communism in the Soviet Union.

DOBBS: Reverend Paris, let me ask you this -- will the man who succeeds Pope John Paul II, will he necessarily be of the same stature and capacity, breadth, as this pope?

PARIS: Well, certainly the man who follows this pope is going to have a difficult task. He's following a giant. He's following a man of great stature. And more than that, he's following a man who was able to shape the church in his own vision and his own perspective.

The new pope, whomever he may be, is going to have to now sort of look over and see how things are, what were the strengths, and then as well, what were the weaknesses? What are the difficulties? What are the areas in the church that need some modification or that need some sort of change as we enter into the 21st Century?

John Paul came, of course, out of solidarity, out of the opposition to Communism. We're facing new challenges in the church, new challenges in the world, and this pope will have to face those, not out of that sense of the opposition to a Communist regime, but out of a sense of how do we live now in this new, highly religious, highly diverse culture that constitutes the world of the 21st Century.

DOBBS: David, you have the last word here.

VAN BIEMA: I just think that most people recognize it would be vain to hope that whoever becomes the next pope would be another John Paul II. But the church might be hopeful that that person could bring some kind of equivalent strength, and in a different way.

DOBBS: If we could, I want to thank each of you.

We, of course, are following very carefully, as are you, I know, the developments at the Vatican.

If we could take a look now at those live pictures of St. Peter's Square, to an estimated 70,000 people have gathered to maintain a vigil and to pray for the pope. And we will be bringing you developments certainly as they warrant. And we'll return with more as Pope John Paul II appears to be near death this evening. Gentlemen, thank you.

Still ahead here, we will be turning to the border between the state of Arizona and Mexico, where the Minuteman Project is under way. American volunteers are preparing to patrol our nation's most porous stretch of border. We'll heard from a conservative activist who applauds the efforts and a leading member of the ACLU who does not. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest strongly supports the Minuteman Project in Arizona. Bay Buchanan of course is the chairman of Team America. It's a political action committee supporting candidates who want to improve border security. And she says quote, "I very much support the Minutemen. They're great Americans and they're stepping up to the plate. Illegal immigration is so serious, we could lose our nation over it."

Bay Buchanan is with the people that she has just complimented, there to support them, joining us from Tombstone, Arizona. Bay, good to have you with us.

BAY BUCHANAN, TEAM AMERICAN: Lou, it's my pleasure to be with you.

DOBBS: I must say that there has been -- this has been a controversial project, the Minuteman Project, from the moment that Chris Simcox and everyone there launched it. What is your sense of the people you're talking to, who are arriving in Tombstone to go out to monitor the border patrol and the border?

BUCHANAN: Lou, these people are coming from all parts of this country -- they're young ones, there's old, there's retired, there's professionals, and there's people who work with their hands. It is a great group. It is a very positive feeling, and very energized by them. They're great Americans who really feel that this country could slip away and they're not willing to stand by. They're willing to come up and try to do something that will really make a difference here. So, I have nothing but respect for them. And I'm honored to be among them.

DOBBS: Bay, as you know, President Bush basically echoing Mexican president Vicente Fox, has called the Minutemen vigilantes. What's your reaction?

BUCHANAN: Lou, it was an outrageous response for the president of the United States to respond to a foreign leader who was saying something about Americans. We are -- there's no effort here to break any laws, it's, you know, people who really feel an issue is critical and are trying to raise it to the national level.

And for the president of the United States to chastise us, to call us names -- first of all, name-calling is not a very -- you know, I have three teenagers, I know it's a natural response for them, but the president of the United States should be a little above that.

He then went on to say he doesn't believe in this kind of law enforcement. He believes in rational law enforcement. Lou, I've been thinking about that. Since considering that we have 3 million illegals coming across the border every year under his administration, rational law enforcement of immigration laws must be, he thinks about it a lot, but does absolutely nothing.

He has failed Americans when it comes to law enforcement of immigration. He has failed them because we have drugs coming across, we have criminals, we have potential terrorists coming across, we have healthcare in this country that's been hurt and damaged, Americans can't get it because of these illegals. He has failed the schoolchildren, because he's allowed these drugs to come across, all because he will not do his constitutional duty to secure and protect the borders of America.

That's what he should focus on, the problem that these good people out here are trying to raise. And he should bypass any attempt to badmouth them.

DOBBS: And Bay, one last question, you're confident that the Minutemen will resist any, any violence?

BUCHANAN: I know that they are doing their best. No one I met was even considering that. These people are thinking of having -- you know, on lawn chairs and having binoculars and their cell phones, these are their weapons, that they'll call the border patrol. They have done their best to make certain. They screened people that nobody is amongst them that they haven't really checked out.

There is no desire -- we want, we are discouraging it at all points. And so if there is any, it will not be from the Minutemen, but somebody who's invaded. And I suspect that there will be none. I'm very hopeful that everybody will be safe, but that this issue will be raised to another level.

And hopefully, Lou, hopefully we will get some action from Congress and the president.

DOBBS: We join you in all of those hopes, and wish you success. Bay Buchanan, thank you very much.

BUCHANAN: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Coming up next, I'll be talking with the director of the Arizona ACLU, Eleanor Eisenberg. She's concerned about violence.

And stay here with CNN throughout this evening for all of the latest developments from the Vatican on the pontiff's condition. These are live pictures of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, where, as in cities all across this country and indeed the world, people are gathering for special Masses, praying for the pope.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The American Civil Liberties Union has sent legal observers to monitor the Minuteman Project along our southern border. The ACLU says it's concerned about the potential for violence between the Minutemen and illegal aliens.

My next guest is the executive director of the ACLU in Arizona. Eleanor Eisenberg is joining us tonight from Phoenix.

Good to have you with us, Eleanor.

ELEANOR EISENBERG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ARIZONA ACLU: Good evening. Good to be here.

DOBBS: The media attention that the Minuteman Project has to surprise, I'm certain, all of the organizers and the volunteers themselves. Has it surprised you? And does just simply the media attention in any way allay any of your concerns?

EISENBERG: Well, first let me clarify our position. The ACLU represents the Bill of Rights. I often say that that's our only client. And so long as everybody there, counterprotesters, protesters, Minutemen, everybody who is gathering there, has the right under the First Amendment to peacefully assemble, to speak, and to protest government action or, in the case of the Minutemen, inaction.

And we are there to simply be the guardians of civil liberties, to make sure that everybody who is peacefully demonstrating has the right to do so without interference.

And we are certainly hoping, and I think everybody does, that there will be peace, and there will be no violence. So we're not anticipating that. We are concerned about everybody's safety.

I am feeling much better in the last few days that there is the attention that has come from the media. I'm not surprised about it. And we're also very much comforted by the fact that we have been assured by the FBI and by the border patrol that there will be ample law enforcement at the border as well.

DOBBS: Well, if there is ample law enforcement along the border, it will be the first time in literally decades, as you know, Eleanor.

The role of the ACLU, as it was first described, was to monitor the Minutemen, so -- but what you have just described, Eleanor, is quite different. You're going to monitor all parties involved in these -- in the Minuteman Project, the volunteers, the activists who -- open-border activists who have said that they are going to come to Arizona as well, as well as those smuggling illegal aliens and who enter the U.S. illegally.

Is that correct?

EISENBERG: Right. The ACLU would lose its credibility if it could not be objective and neutral at these demonstrations. We have been providing legal observers here in Arizona for many, many years at large gatherings, and our volunteers who engage in activities such as that, I think, are really heroic, because they set aside their own rights of protest, they set aside their own feelings, in order to assure that they will have credibility if they are called upon to provide notes or...

DOBBS: Well, as you know...

EISENBERG: ... documentation that they have accrued during the course of the event.

DOBBS: So let me ask it straightforwardly, you're there to represent the Bill of Rights in a neutral and objective manner, and you're concerned with the civil liberties of the Minutemen themselves, as concerned with their rights as you are with the rights of any party there at the border with Mexico. Is that correct?

EISENBERG: I think that's an accurate statement.

DOBBS: All right.

EISENBERG: I think a lot of ACLU members' sympathies are with migrants and that we agree that...

DOBBS: By migrants, do you mean illegal aliens?

EISENBERG: We mean border crossers, undocumented, illegal. I know there are a lot of terms. And we share the concern that there has to be a humane, consistent immigration policy that is enforced...

DOBBS: Eleanor, may I just point out one thing?

EISENBERG: ... implemented by law enforcement. Sure.

DOBBS: The U.S. Bill of Rights, the Constitution, those very precious rights, those are for the American people, American citizens, and shouldn't they have some primacy in your concern?

EISENBERG: The Bill of Rights does not restrict itself...

DOBBS: It's a simple question, Eleanor. Should they have the primacy in your concern?

EISENBERG: The Bill of Rights does not restrict itself to citizens. In some cases it does. Clearly, when it comes to voting rights and those things, but anybody who is on U.S. soil, I think, can have the expectation that law enforcement that is trained and that is accountable...

DOBBS: Eleanor...

EISENBERG: ... will...

DOBBS: ... I apologize...

EISENBERG: ... enforce the law. DOBBS: I apologize. We're out of time. I am so delighted to hear you say that you are concerned about the rights of all parties to what will transpire.

EISENBERG: Absolutely.

DOBBS: And we thank you for being here. Eleanor Eisenberg...

EISENBERG: Thank you.

DOBBS: ... from the ACLU, Arizona.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. Do you support the goals of the Minuteman Project, yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here in just a matter of moments.

Next, the week's most important stories, with tonight's newsmakers.

And stay with CNN here for all of the latest developments on the pope's condition.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This has been, to say the least, a remarkable week. Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report" joins me now, as does Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Time," both in Washington. Let me ask you both right away, Pope John Paul II near death, your sense of his contribution, Roger, over the course of his papacy?

ROGER SIMON, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: He's led an extraordinary life. He's been not just an active pope, but an activist pope, not just in matters of church doctrine, but he has never shied away from making his feelings known about the secular world.

We all know that he's been a strong opponent of Communism. His support for the solidarity movement gets a lot of credit for the eventual fall of the Soviet Union. But he never shied away from criticizing United States foreign policy, opposed both Gulf Wars, the bombing of Yugoslavia. This is a man who spoke out.

DOBBS: He spoke out Ron, at the same time, the Catholic Church itself enduring scandals and considerable controversy as well during his reign.

ROB BROWNSTEIN, L.A. TIMES: Well Lou, this is really a titanic figure in the history of 20th Century. As Roger suggested, he'll be remembered mostly for his role in the fall of Communism. At times, he has been a controversial figure here in the U.S., because he has closely identified himself and the church with the most conservative views on many social issues such like homosexuality, and abortion, and gay marriage that divide Catholics as they divide all Americans. I do think, though, that even those who disagree with him on specific issues see him as a moral exemplar, who above all has stood for the dignity of every human life and really is a giant in that way.

DOBBS: One of those lives expired this week, Terri Schiavo, a controversial legal case, a controversial social issue. Your thoughts on its lasting impact, Roger?

SIMON: Well, aside from heightening awareness about the need for living wills, which I think has been discussed a lot. I think it's also heightened awareness in the public's mind about the incredible power of federal judges, that they can literally determined life or death, especially when the Supreme Court declines to act. And this may embolden Republicans in the Senate to change the rules and get confirmation for federal judges by a simple vote of 51 members. They have 55 members now, rather than a filibuster-breaking 60.

BROWNSTEIN: Lou, I agree with Roger, that this whole episode is going to increase the pressure on Republican leaders in Congress from their base to pursue that option, to eliminate the filibuster. On the other hand, the courts were the one institution in this whole sorry and sad story that produced the outcome the polls suggested most Americans supported, which was leaving the decision locally. And I do think...

DOBBS: Not just most Americans, an overwhelming number of Americans.

BROWNSTEIN: An overwhelming number of Americans.

In fact a majority of Republicans a majority evangelical Christians, a majority of regular churchgoers. So, in that way, I think Democrats believes that this gives Republicans an argument for the case for the need for an independent judiciary and I think could affect this debate over judges in unpredictable ways.

DOBBS: Well, unpredictability in the Senate right now seems to be the order of the day. And I don't know what it speaks to in terms of the leadership in the Senate. But it looks to be outright skullduggery, if you will, the Senate to take up the debate Wednesday on the ag (ph) jobs bill which would result in amnesty of as many as 11 -- rather, 1 million aliens. At the same time, the Senate leadership pushing away the real I.D. bill, Sensenbrenner legislation, even though they had agreed to put it on must-pass legislation. That is extraordinary. What's your reaction, Roger?

SIMON: I have a feeling you're going to see a trade-off here. That they're going to decide they just do not want to muddle the issue of funding the Iraq war with issues of national security and immigration.

DOBBS: Last question, speaking of controversy within the houses, Tom Delay, how much trouble is he in, Ron?

BROWNSTEIN: I think his comments this week on judges showed that he is in trouble, he is very much trying to rally his base to him. And I think that is a sign that he feels danger from the center of both chambers at this point. DOBBS: Ron Brownstein, Roger Simon, thank you both for what has been an extraordinary week.

Still ahead here, the results of our poll, a preview of what's ahead come Monday. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll. 90 percent of you say you support the goals of the Minuteman Project, 10 percent say you do not.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here Monday, when we'll have a full report on the Arizona Minuteman Project and a great deal more. And CNN, of course tonight, full coverage from the Vatican, from around the world, on the pope's condition.

Anderson Cooper next, live from St. Patricks Cathedral

Have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 1, 2005 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, Pope John Paul II's medical condition has deteriorated sharply. The pontiff is near death. We'll have the latest for you from Rome. We'll also be joined by three of this country's leading authorities on papal affairs to talk about the pope, what is next for the Catholic Church and American Catholics.
The largest neighborhood watch project ever is underway in Arizona tonight to protect our border with Mexico. Hundreds of Minuteman volunteers are there to support the U.S. border patrol. My guests tonight include Dave Buchanan of Team America, who says the volunteers are great Americans. And the ACLU's Eleanor Eisenberg, who says some of the volunteers could use violence against illegal aliens.

And the illegal alien giveaway, the shocking loopholes that show illegal aliens how to obtain U.S. driver's licenses and car insurance, all without offering any proof of their legal status in this country.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight the pope is in grave condition. The pontiff is barely hanging on to his life. The pope's health worsened sharply today when his breathing became shallow and his heart and kidneys began to fell. At one point, several Italian newspapers reported that the pontiff dead, but the Vatican denied that.

We begin our coverage tonight with Walter Rodgers in Rome.

Walt, what can you tell us about the pope's condition this evening?

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

The pope, John Paul II, clearly appears to be hovering very perilously between life and death. For the past 24 hours, the Vatican has been preparing the world for the end.

At a mass at St. Peter's earlier today, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the vicar of Rome, said his holiness, John Paul II, has already seen and touched Christ. That's a very grave and ominous statement.

Then he went on to say -- other Vatican officials went on to say that the pope earlier had been told of the gravity of his situation. And we were told then that the pope asked that the scripture be read to him, the so-called scripture of the third hour. This is the period where Christ on the cross, as he was about to die, tradition holds it was the third hour. And that was the scripture John Paul II asked to have read to him.

Even more interestingly, cardinals, more than a few of them have come to the pope's bedside as if to say good-bye.

The most interesting thing is the greatest hopefulness seems to come from inside the Vatican but from the tens of thousands of people in St. Peter's Square holding candlelight vigils, down there praying. They are the ones who seem to have the highest hope for the pope at this hour, believing their prayers may yet have an effect -- Lou.

DOBBS: Walter Rodgers, thank you.

The precise details of the pope's medical condition remain unclear this evening, but a senior Vatican official left no doubt that the pope's death is imminent.

Joining me now is our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, it appears as though the pope is unable to fight this latest infection. As Walt Rodgers reported, not only in the Vatican, but millions of people around the world praying for his recovery. Are there -- is there any medical possibility for his recovery?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, most doctors will never say never, Lou, but it seems very, very remote at this point. There is some data. There is some science to back that up.

You know, people who develop septic shock, which is basically an overwhelming infection of the body, have about -- you can see there it leads to low blood pressure, and subsequently low blood flow to the organs.

In the best of conditions, that is to say a healthy person who is healthy before the shock, and is in a good intensive care unit has about a 20 percent to 30 percent chance of recovering from that. The pope is obviously not either one of those things. He is at an advanced age, a well-known medical history and is at his apartment in the Vatican. It has good medical facilities, but is not in an intensive care unit -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. The idea, Sanjay, that the pontiff has chosen not to go to the hospital, but rather remain at the Vatican, is there any medical reason for that judgment, other than perhaps the -- what may seem obvious, that the pontiff has decided to spend his last hours at the Vatican?

GUPTA: Yes, I think you're right, Lou. I think that's probably the most likely reason. The other reason medically could be that he could, in fact have been just too unstable in terms of his blood pressure and heart rate to even be transported. That's another possibility, as well. But from everything that we're hearing, it's probably more the former reason: he just wanted to not go to the hospital another time there, Lou.

DOBBS: Sanjay Gupta, thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

DOBBS: The White House, of course, is following developments at the Vatican tonight. The White House today declared the pope as an inspiration for the 16 million American Catholics.

White House correspondent Dana Bash has our report -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the president is watching and waiting just as the rest of us are. His aides say that they are giving him some regular updates. They have been throughout the day on the condition of the pope, and they really started doing that last night when the pope's condition took a turn for the worse.

Now, here at the White House today, the president's spokesman said that Mr. Bush and the first lady are praying for the Holy Father. They said that the outpouring of love and concern from so many millions of Americans is a testimony to his greatness.

Now the White House says it's inappropriate at this time to talk about whether he will go to a funeral, but privately, Bush aides are saying that they fully expect Mr. Bush to go, if and when that happens at this point.

Now, it's interesting to note that John Paul II made history at the White House, because he was the first pope, Lou, to come to the White House. That was in 1979. He met with President Carter.

But as for President Bush, his relationship with the pope has been strained for the same reason Mr. Bush has been strained with other world leaders, and that is over Iraq and the war there.

The president was at the Vatican in June, and he got a papal scolding of sorts over Iraq and particularly over the abuses at Abu -- Abu Ghraib prison, but it's interesting to note they are almost entirely in sync on social issues. On abortion, the president has adopted a term, a phrase that comes from the Vatican, and that is the culture of life, working towards a culture of life. That's sort of his vernacular for the president in his stance against abortion, and he picked that up from the Vatican.

So Lou, they are certainly watching here at the White House. And the president, again, getting regular updates as to the condition of the pope -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana Bash, thank you.

Churches across the country today holding special masses for the pope. In New York, Cardinal Edward Egan described the pontiff as an extraordinary hero for our times. Adoara Udoji reports now from St. Patrick's Cathedral in midtown Manhattan -- Adoara.

ADOARA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

We've been watching a steady stream of folks coming in and out of St. Patrick's Cathedral, which as you know is really the center of Catholic life here in New York City.

Now, archdiocese officials say, although this is a very busy church on any given day, that clearly because of the John Paul II's condition, his gravely ill condition, they have seen far more people today than usual, people going inside, lighting candles, saying prayers and also participating in mass. There's a mass that just began at about 5:30. And that was actually a regularly scheduled mass.

And we found people from all over, in fact. We found folks from Canada. They said they felt compelled to come in to St. Patrick's and pay tribute to the pope that they called a great man. And we found some New Yorkers who came from Long Island, also coming in to pay tribute to the pope and to pray for his well-being.

Also, as you mentioned, the archdiocese Cardinal Egan did speak today. He said that he holds the pope, like so many, in a very special place in his heart. He is well aware that there are many Catholics, four million here in New York City, who want to maybe come in and worship and say a prayer, light a candle for the pope. And that's why they have extended hours. The church usually closing at 8:45. It will close tonight at 10 -- Lou.

DOBBS: Adoara, thank you very much.

Let's go now to Rome, where it is a little after 1 in the morning, and turn to our CNN chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour.

Christiane, lots of confusion today about the state of the pope's health. What is the mood there among what we are told to be just about 70,000 people gathered in St. Peter's Square?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a huge crowd, Lou, and people have come. And I've been in the square talking to people, talking and asking them why they here -- they have come here and what their feelings are. And to a person, they have said they have come to pray for the pope.

They say this is a very sad moment. They want to give him comfort, they say, in his last moments. And they really do believe that this is the end for this pope.

He's had 26 years on the throne of St. Peter, the longest-serving pope, the most-traveled pope, the first pope ever to come to the Vatican, a man they say of great moral stature and great charisma. And they remember, also, his singular role in the collapse of communism in the early '80s, supporting the Solidarity movement, the first non-Italian pope in 455 years, and his great sort of physical stature on this earth, a great part of their lives.

People we've talked to who say they've known no one else. He's been part of their life, people who are in their 20s right now.

So they've come here basically to say good-bye. They don't believe that there's any hope anymore, that his condition is so weakened that they have just come to give comfort.

In terms of actual knowledge about his precise condition right now, I have to say that we don't know any more than we've been told officially a few hours ago from the Vatican spokesman, which is basically that his breathing is irregular and shallow, that his blood pressure is unstable, that his organs are gradually failing.

But, of course, there was one moment where the Italian press reported that he had slipped into a coma, he was brain dead, that he was actually dead, and the Vatican came out and denied that.

And, of course, we are not reporting that. We're simply going with what the Vatican is saying right now.

But people here feel a great sense of sadness. And for that many people in Vatican Square behind me, you would imagine that there would be sort of a hum of noise. But there isn't. It's almost silent. It's a very, very somber moment.

There were prayers. The official rosary was recited several hours ago. Huge screens set up in Vatican Square for people to see that happening. And the archbishop of Vatican City, the vicar of Vatican City, told the crowd that this evening or tonight Christ will open his doors to Pope John Paul.

So there is a sense that this is the end. And people have come to say good-bye -- Lou.

DOBBS: Christiane, thank you. As you say, several Italian news agencies and Reuters reporting incorrectly on the state of pontiff's health. Christiane, where will the -- the Vatican itself will be, of course, the official source for any suggestion of a change in the pope's condition. What will be the exact sequence there, as best you understand it?

AMANPOUR: As best we understand it, the tradition is formalized, and has been over centuries. What will happen is that one of the cardinals will recite his name three times, his birth name, Karol, three times, then his ring and seal will be broken, his papal apartments will be sealed, and then his death will be announced to the public. And thereafter begins the period of mourning.

Officially, it's nine days of mourning. And the burial -- the funeral, rather, must happen within four to six days. Then, within 15 to 20 days after his death, the cardinals must gather in Rome to elect a new pope.

So there's a very elaborate process that will get underway once he formally passes away. And that is a process that has been thought out and has been in place for so many, many centuries of this papacy -- Lou.

DOBBS: Christiane, thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour. And, of course, we will be returning to the Vatican as the situation warrants. Thank you.

Still ahead here tonight, three leading authorities on papal affairs of the Catholic Church join me to talk about the pope, the impact on the church and American Catholics.

Also ahead here tonight, 1,000 American volunteers gathering to patrol the Arizona border with Mexico. Bay Buchanan calls those volunteers great Americans. Eleanor Eisenberg of the ACLU is concerned about violence against illegal aliens. They are both our guests tonight.

And illegal alien giveaway, why so many illegal aliens in this country have been entitled to benefits and rights of citizenship without proof of legal status.

Those stories, a great deal more, including our consistent coverage on the Vatican and the condition of the pope tonight.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More than 1,000 American citizens tonight are gathered along the Arizona border, preparing to do what the federal government has failed to do... secure our border with Mexico. The organizers of the Minuteman Project say that they will report sightings of illegal aliens to the authorities. Critics, including Mexican President Fox and President Bush, have called the Minuteman volunteers vigilantes.

Casey Wian reports from Tombstone, Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The minutemen came from places like Pennsylvania and Arkansas, far from the Mexican border, to do a job they say the government won't do.

JOE MCCUTCHEN, MINUTEMAN PROJECT VOLUNTEER: Our federal government, most especially President Bush, who has been remiss in upholding his constitutional sworn duties. And we hope that he will see the necessity of securing our borders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need five minutemen only.

WIAN: Hundreds of citizen volunteers stood in line waiting to register and receive instructions from project organizers. This month they'll spread out across 20 miles of Arizona border and watch for illegal aliens attempting to cross.

The minutemen say they won't confront or detain anyone, but will report suspected illegal aliens to the Border Patrol. Even so, President Bush and many law enforcement officials have criticized the volunteers. LAWRENCE HEADRICK, MINUTEMAN PROJECT VOLUNTEER: They're saying that the Minuteman Project shouldn't be here because somebody might get hurt. What on earth is happening if we have terrorists coming across the border? What do they think the terrorists have in mind when they come across?

WIAN: This Italian legal immigrant spend seven years becoming a U.S. citizen and now he's a minuteman.

LUCA ZANNE, MINUTEMAN PROJECT VOLUNTEER: Every country should have some borders. And unfortunately, in this country the last few years, this is not happening.

WIAN: Recently, the Department of Homeland Security ordered 500 additional Border Patrol agents to Arizona and denied the deployment was a response to the minutemen.

JAMES GILCHRIST, MINUTEMAN PROJECT FOUNDER: Five hundred Border Patrol agents sent to Arizona for the three months of the summer is grossly insignificant. There should be 2,500 sent.

WIAN: That message was clear to one U.S. congressman who spoke to the volunteers.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: We're saying to our government, please enforce the law. That is not a radical idea, that is not a vigilante idea. It is an American concept, the rule of law.

(APPLAUSE)

WIAN: The minutemen have already succeeded in bringing attention to the issue of illegal immigration. The media presence is unlike anything Tombstone has ever seen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Day one of the Minuteman Project has been peaceful and orderly. Organizers hope it stays that way through the weekend, because that's when actual patrols will begin -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, the number of volunteers that have shown up today in Tombstone, do we have a good reading on that?

WIAN: We have some people involved with the Minuteman Project who estimated 600 earlier today, others estimated up to 1,000. We don't have a hard number, because some of the people pre-registered. But I can tell you, from what I saw, there were several hundred people who showed up here to register today -- Lou.

DOBBS: OK. Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.

That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you support the goals of the Minuteman Project, yes or no? Cast your vote at LOUDOBBS.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Bay Buchanan and her conservative political action committee are in Tombstone to support the Minuteman Project. Buchanan calls the minutemen great Americans.

Eleanor Eisenberg is the director of the ACLU in the state of Arizona. She says she's concerned that those minutemen could use violence against illegal aliens. I'll be talking with both later here in the broadcast.

The Senate next week is now expected to consider a proposal to legalize as many as a million illegal aliens farm workers in this country. Senator Larry Craig of Idaho proposed the amendment. It will be debated as part of the emergency spending bill for the war on terror next week. The measure would allow any farm worker in the United States illegally who has worked 100 days out of the year to gain legal status.

We reported here extensively on the 10 states in this country that give drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. North Carolina is one of those states. But illegal aliens in North Carolina are not only allowed to obtain drivers' licenses, they also are allowed to obtain car insurance without offering any proof of legal status.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): North Carolina has a don't ask, do insure policy. That means all insurance companies have to sell auto insurance to anyone who walks in the door, including those in the country illegally.

RON WOODARD, NC LISTEN: Car insurance turns out to be like a -- like a privilege in a lot of ways. And we shouldn't be giving privileges to people who have broken the law to come to America. And once they get insurance, then that makes it just that much easier to get a driver's license.

SYLVESTER: Car insurance is one of the requirements to get a North Carolina driver's license. Other states give insurers the discretion to turn away customers who are deemed too risky or don't have a track record on driving in the United States.

LORETTA WORTERS, INSURANCE INFORMATION INSTITUTE: You have an underwriter who looks at what risks are with a particular individual. And if an underwriter feels that person is too much of a risk, then they would suggest that they don't write that person.

SYLVESTER: North Carolina's insurance commissioner justifies the law by saying insurance is sold on the vehicle, not to a person.

JIM LONG, NORTH CAROLINA INSURANCE COMMISSIONER: What we're trying to do is get every vehicle on the road in North Carolina, whether you're coming through from Washington going down to Florida, whether you're driving here all the time, to make sure that you do have the auto liability insurance policy in effect to protect those of us who might be run over by you on the highways.

SYLVESTER: But North Carolina has been known for its lax driver laws. It's one of 10 states that don't require licensees to be U.S. residents and one of a few that accept tax identification numbers in lieu of a Social Security number.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: North Carolina has recently changed some of its driver's license procedures. Until last year, it accepted a Mexican matricula card as proof of age and identity. But immigration reform advocates are still fighting in the state legislature to close a number of other loopholes -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.

Still ahead here, that Minuteman Project in Arizona, volunteers supporting the U.S. Border Patrol. My guests tonight are Bay Buchanan of Team America who says those volunteers are great Americans. The ACLU's Eleanor Eisenberg has a different view. They'll be our guests.

And then worldwide prayers for Pope John Paul II, who is near death tonight. You're looking now at pictures, live pictures from Vatican City, where some 70,000 people are holding a vigil. I'll be joined later by three experts on the Catholic Church and the Vatican. We'll be talking about the impact on the pope's failing health on Catholics around this country and the world.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Returning now to the top story of the evening, Pope John Paul II is near death. In a statement, the Vatican said the 84-year-old pontiff's kidney and circulatory system are failing.

Seventy thousand people are now gathered in St. Peter's Square this evening. They're holding a candlelight vigil for the pope. It's 1:25 in the morning in Rome. There are many gathering, of course, in this country, special masses be held as well.

Joining me now from Boston, Reverend John Paris. He's a professor at Boston College. Joining me here in our New York studios, Father Thomas Reese. He's the editor in chief of "America," the national Catholic weekly. And David Van Biema, he's a religion writer for "TIME" magazine.

Thank you all for being with us.

Let me turn to you, if I may first, Reverend, and ask, with all that you have watched from the Vatican, what is your sense of what we can expect over the next 24 hours? Reverend Paris?

REV. JOHN PARIS, PROFESSOR BOSTON COLLEGE: We can expect in the next 24 hours very clearly is going to be a classic Christian death watch. The family has gathered, the close relatives, close associates, and that includes thousands and thousands of Catholics in St. Peter's Square, all awaiting what in fact is the opening into eternal life for a man of great faith. The death will come, there will be great grief, there will be great sadness. But also, in the Christian experience, a great sense of joy, that this journey of life, the journey of a soul has completed its work here and the pope has gone to his eternal rest.

DOBBS: David, as you, obviously a journalist, have been watching what is transpiring at the Vatican, does it seem to you that the Vatican is being more open this time about the pope's condition and about what is going on?

DAVID VAN BIEMA, "TIME" MAGAZINE: I think that the Vatican is being more open. It's not nearly as transparent as American institutions are.

DOBBS: Right.

VAN BIEMA: I don't suppose we may ever know precisely how open the Vatican has been. But by comparison with the past, I would say that it's close to real time.

DOBBS: Is this, Father Reese, a reflection of what Pope John Paul II has been able to accomplish in his papacy, the ability to transform a church to a new level?

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "AMERICA": Oh, absolutely. I think Pope John Paul II has been much more open with the media. And I remember when he was first elected the press office had to go through like three or four levels of bureaucracy before they could get a question up to the pope.

Now, you know, his press person has direct access to him by cell phone at any time day or night. You know, because the pope wanted to be able to respond and be sensitive. And I think, you know, the reports, you know, that we're getting are not absolutely complete, but I think they're much more open than they have been in the past.

DOBBS: Reverend Paris, let me ask you. Pope John Paul II has lived through an extraordinary age in which he has seen the rise of radical Islamist terror throughout -- throughout the world, the fall of Marxist Leninism, the fall of, of course, the Berlin Wall, the freeing of the people of Poland, first of all, his native land, and also Russia and Eastern Europe.

What are your thoughts about his influence on all of those developments?

PARIS: Well, it isn't even a question of what we think. Mr. Gorbachev himself said John Paul II was the single most influential factor in the fall of communism.

He stood with great strength, with great vigor, with great solidarity. He understood the evils of communism. He understood it was materialism, it lacked a spirituality, and he stood against it with all of his strength and all of his energy. And his ability to unite people in faith, to unite people with values, was one of the great sources of the undermining of the communist system throughout Eastern Europe.

DOBBS: Do you agree, father?

REESE: Oh, absolutely, I would agree. And what was extraordinary for us who grew up in the '50s, you know, who lived in schools and, you know, practiced getting under our chairs, you know, for when the bomb came, and lived under this mushroom-shaped cloud, this is the man who helped end, you know, the Cold War. And what was even more extraordinary is he did it in a peaceful manner.

I mean, I'm old enough to remember the people who talked about, you know, we should have a first strike against the Soviet Union, because of these godless communists. This was not a man who supported war as a way of bringing about justice or peace. This was a man who saw a way to bring peace and justice through nonviolent revolution, and he did it.

DOBBS: He did it. But David, he didn't do it without any absence of controversy, both within and without the church, did he?

VAN BIEMA: Well, I think that the -- that the church was probably four square behind his first -- he made two visits to Poland shortly after being made pope. And they were extraordinary visits, because there is no nation more

DOBBS: Divorced (ph) in 1979...

VAN BIEMA: There's no nation more self-consciously both nationalist and Catholic at the same time than Poland. And in some ways, when we look forward to a conclave by choosing this particular man to be the pope, the conclave exhibited an extraordinary prescience in terms of what that might mean on the world stage.

By making those visits, by saying the things he did when he was on those visits and by becoming the patron saint of solidarity effectively, I think that he probably gathered behind him the goodwill of most of the west.

But whether there may have been some divergence was when -- with Jaruzelski who was the Soviet puppet leader, declared martial law in Poland. And the west, or a lot of the west wanted sanctions, the pope declined to go along with that. And there was considerable criticism of him for that. But what he effectively did was to kind of make himself a partner in the process that followed.

REESE: It was in fact considerable embarrassment. At one point, the Reagan White House at one point announced that the pope was supportive of the economic sanctions against Poland, because of the martial law. And the Vatican cleric quickly said no, no, no, we do not support economic sanctions as a way of trying to change a regime, because it punishes the people and doesn't end up changing the regime.

DOBBS: It is interesting to students of the history of the church and to students of history, period, that both Ronald Reagan and the pope were the victims of attempted assassinations in 1981. Subsequently, even though rumors swirled at the time that Russia, the Soviet Union at the time, was behind those assassinations attempts -- rather, the assassination attempt of the pope. To what degree did the enmity between the Catholic Church and Soviet Union, despite Mr. Gorbachev's rather generous assessment of the pope's influence, it was not a warm relationship, was it?

REESE: Oh, no. Communists have been persecuting Christians, killing Catholic priests in Poland and other places for decades. I mean, the church was never glassy -- never approached Communism with rose-colored glasses, quite the contrary.

On the other hand, it was fascinating you mentioned Ronald Reagan. He met with the pope and talked with the pope before he met with Gorbachev. And Reagan's advisers were saying don't trust Gorbachev, he's a communist, don't trust him. So he went and met with the pope and the pope said this is a man you can -- Gorbachev is a man you can do business with. And Reagan believed the pope rather than his advisers and went on to make these deals, which began the collapse of Communism in the Soviet Union.

DOBBS: Reverend Paris, let me ask you this -- will the man who succeeds Pope John Paul II, will he necessarily be of the same stature and capacity, breadth, as this pope?

PARIS: Well, certainly the man who follows this pope is going to have a difficult task. He's following a giant. He's following a man of great stature. And more than that, he's following a man who was able to shape the church in his own vision and his own perspective.

The new pope, whomever he may be, is going to have to now sort of look over and see how things are, what were the strengths, and then as well, what were the weaknesses? What are the difficulties? What are the areas in the church that need some modification or that need some sort of change as we enter into the 21st Century?

John Paul came, of course, out of solidarity, out of the opposition to Communism. We're facing new challenges in the church, new challenges in the world, and this pope will have to face those, not out of that sense of the opposition to a Communist regime, but out of a sense of how do we live now in this new, highly religious, highly diverse culture that constitutes the world of the 21st Century.

DOBBS: David, you have the last word here.

VAN BIEMA: I just think that most people recognize it would be vain to hope that whoever becomes the next pope would be another John Paul II. But the church might be hopeful that that person could bring some kind of equivalent strength, and in a different way.

DOBBS: If we could, I want to thank each of you.

We, of course, are following very carefully, as are you, I know, the developments at the Vatican.

If we could take a look now at those live pictures of St. Peter's Square, to an estimated 70,000 people have gathered to maintain a vigil and to pray for the pope. And we will be bringing you developments certainly as they warrant. And we'll return with more as Pope John Paul II appears to be near death this evening. Gentlemen, thank you.

Still ahead here, we will be turning to the border between the state of Arizona and Mexico, where the Minuteman Project is under way. American volunteers are preparing to patrol our nation's most porous stretch of border. We'll heard from a conservative activist who applauds the efforts and a leading member of the ACLU who does not. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest strongly supports the Minuteman Project in Arizona. Bay Buchanan of course is the chairman of Team America. It's a political action committee supporting candidates who want to improve border security. And she says quote, "I very much support the Minutemen. They're great Americans and they're stepping up to the plate. Illegal immigration is so serious, we could lose our nation over it."

Bay Buchanan is with the people that she has just complimented, there to support them, joining us from Tombstone, Arizona. Bay, good to have you with us.

BAY BUCHANAN, TEAM AMERICAN: Lou, it's my pleasure to be with you.

DOBBS: I must say that there has been -- this has been a controversial project, the Minuteman Project, from the moment that Chris Simcox and everyone there launched it. What is your sense of the people you're talking to, who are arriving in Tombstone to go out to monitor the border patrol and the border?

BUCHANAN: Lou, these people are coming from all parts of this country -- they're young ones, there's old, there's retired, there's professionals, and there's people who work with their hands. It is a great group. It is a very positive feeling, and very energized by them. They're great Americans who really feel that this country could slip away and they're not willing to stand by. They're willing to come up and try to do something that will really make a difference here. So, I have nothing but respect for them. And I'm honored to be among them.

DOBBS: Bay, as you know, President Bush basically echoing Mexican president Vicente Fox, has called the Minutemen vigilantes. What's your reaction?

BUCHANAN: Lou, it was an outrageous response for the president of the United States to respond to a foreign leader who was saying something about Americans. We are -- there's no effort here to break any laws, it's, you know, people who really feel an issue is critical and are trying to raise it to the national level.

And for the president of the United States to chastise us, to call us names -- first of all, name-calling is not a very -- you know, I have three teenagers, I know it's a natural response for them, but the president of the United States should be a little above that.

He then went on to say he doesn't believe in this kind of law enforcement. He believes in rational law enforcement. Lou, I've been thinking about that. Since considering that we have 3 million illegals coming across the border every year under his administration, rational law enforcement of immigration laws must be, he thinks about it a lot, but does absolutely nothing.

He has failed Americans when it comes to law enforcement of immigration. He has failed them because we have drugs coming across, we have criminals, we have potential terrorists coming across, we have healthcare in this country that's been hurt and damaged, Americans can't get it because of these illegals. He has failed the schoolchildren, because he's allowed these drugs to come across, all because he will not do his constitutional duty to secure and protect the borders of America.

That's what he should focus on, the problem that these good people out here are trying to raise. And he should bypass any attempt to badmouth them.

DOBBS: And Bay, one last question, you're confident that the Minutemen will resist any, any violence?

BUCHANAN: I know that they are doing their best. No one I met was even considering that. These people are thinking of having -- you know, on lawn chairs and having binoculars and their cell phones, these are their weapons, that they'll call the border patrol. They have done their best to make certain. They screened people that nobody is amongst them that they haven't really checked out.

There is no desire -- we want, we are discouraging it at all points. And so if there is any, it will not be from the Minutemen, but somebody who's invaded. And I suspect that there will be none. I'm very hopeful that everybody will be safe, but that this issue will be raised to another level.

And hopefully, Lou, hopefully we will get some action from Congress and the president.

DOBBS: We join you in all of those hopes, and wish you success. Bay Buchanan, thank you very much.

BUCHANAN: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Coming up next, I'll be talking with the director of the Arizona ACLU, Eleanor Eisenberg. She's concerned about violence.

And stay here with CNN throughout this evening for all of the latest developments from the Vatican on the pontiff's condition. These are live pictures of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, where, as in cities all across this country and indeed the world, people are gathering for special Masses, praying for the pope.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The American Civil Liberties Union has sent legal observers to monitor the Minuteman Project along our southern border. The ACLU says it's concerned about the potential for violence between the Minutemen and illegal aliens.

My next guest is the executive director of the ACLU in Arizona. Eleanor Eisenberg is joining us tonight from Phoenix.

Good to have you with us, Eleanor.

ELEANOR EISENBERG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ARIZONA ACLU: Good evening. Good to be here.

DOBBS: The media attention that the Minuteman Project has to surprise, I'm certain, all of the organizers and the volunteers themselves. Has it surprised you? And does just simply the media attention in any way allay any of your concerns?

EISENBERG: Well, first let me clarify our position. The ACLU represents the Bill of Rights. I often say that that's our only client. And so long as everybody there, counterprotesters, protesters, Minutemen, everybody who is gathering there, has the right under the First Amendment to peacefully assemble, to speak, and to protest government action or, in the case of the Minutemen, inaction.

And we are there to simply be the guardians of civil liberties, to make sure that everybody who is peacefully demonstrating has the right to do so without interference.

And we are certainly hoping, and I think everybody does, that there will be peace, and there will be no violence. So we're not anticipating that. We are concerned about everybody's safety.

I am feeling much better in the last few days that there is the attention that has come from the media. I'm not surprised about it. And we're also very much comforted by the fact that we have been assured by the FBI and by the border patrol that there will be ample law enforcement at the border as well.

DOBBS: Well, if there is ample law enforcement along the border, it will be the first time in literally decades, as you know, Eleanor.

The role of the ACLU, as it was first described, was to monitor the Minutemen, so -- but what you have just described, Eleanor, is quite different. You're going to monitor all parties involved in these -- in the Minuteman Project, the volunteers, the activists who -- open-border activists who have said that they are going to come to Arizona as well, as well as those smuggling illegal aliens and who enter the U.S. illegally.

Is that correct?

EISENBERG: Right. The ACLU would lose its credibility if it could not be objective and neutral at these demonstrations. We have been providing legal observers here in Arizona for many, many years at large gatherings, and our volunteers who engage in activities such as that, I think, are really heroic, because they set aside their own rights of protest, they set aside their own feelings, in order to assure that they will have credibility if they are called upon to provide notes or...

DOBBS: Well, as you know...

EISENBERG: ... documentation that they have accrued during the course of the event.

DOBBS: So let me ask it straightforwardly, you're there to represent the Bill of Rights in a neutral and objective manner, and you're concerned with the civil liberties of the Minutemen themselves, as concerned with their rights as you are with the rights of any party there at the border with Mexico. Is that correct?

EISENBERG: I think that's an accurate statement.

DOBBS: All right.

EISENBERG: I think a lot of ACLU members' sympathies are with migrants and that we agree that...

DOBBS: By migrants, do you mean illegal aliens?

EISENBERG: We mean border crossers, undocumented, illegal. I know there are a lot of terms. And we share the concern that there has to be a humane, consistent immigration policy that is enforced...

DOBBS: Eleanor, may I just point out one thing?

EISENBERG: ... implemented by law enforcement. Sure.

DOBBS: The U.S. Bill of Rights, the Constitution, those very precious rights, those are for the American people, American citizens, and shouldn't they have some primacy in your concern?

EISENBERG: The Bill of Rights does not restrict itself...

DOBBS: It's a simple question, Eleanor. Should they have the primacy in your concern?

EISENBERG: The Bill of Rights does not restrict itself to citizens. In some cases it does. Clearly, when it comes to voting rights and those things, but anybody who is on U.S. soil, I think, can have the expectation that law enforcement that is trained and that is accountable...

DOBBS: Eleanor...

EISENBERG: ... will...

DOBBS: ... I apologize...

EISENBERG: ... enforce the law. DOBBS: I apologize. We're out of time. I am so delighted to hear you say that you are concerned about the rights of all parties to what will transpire.

EISENBERG: Absolutely.

DOBBS: And we thank you for being here. Eleanor Eisenberg...

EISENBERG: Thank you.

DOBBS: ... from the ACLU, Arizona.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. Do you support the goals of the Minuteman Project, yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here in just a matter of moments.

Next, the week's most important stories, with tonight's newsmakers.

And stay with CNN here for all of the latest developments on the pope's condition.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This has been, to say the least, a remarkable week. Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report" joins me now, as does Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Time," both in Washington. Let me ask you both right away, Pope John Paul II near death, your sense of his contribution, Roger, over the course of his papacy?

ROGER SIMON, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: He's led an extraordinary life. He's been not just an active pope, but an activist pope, not just in matters of church doctrine, but he has never shied away from making his feelings known about the secular world.

We all know that he's been a strong opponent of Communism. His support for the solidarity movement gets a lot of credit for the eventual fall of the Soviet Union. But he never shied away from criticizing United States foreign policy, opposed both Gulf Wars, the bombing of Yugoslavia. This is a man who spoke out.

DOBBS: He spoke out Ron, at the same time, the Catholic Church itself enduring scandals and considerable controversy as well during his reign.

ROB BROWNSTEIN, L.A. TIMES: Well Lou, this is really a titanic figure in the history of 20th Century. As Roger suggested, he'll be remembered mostly for his role in the fall of Communism. At times, he has been a controversial figure here in the U.S., because he has closely identified himself and the church with the most conservative views on many social issues such like homosexuality, and abortion, and gay marriage that divide Catholics as they divide all Americans. I do think, though, that even those who disagree with him on specific issues see him as a moral exemplar, who above all has stood for the dignity of every human life and really is a giant in that way.

DOBBS: One of those lives expired this week, Terri Schiavo, a controversial legal case, a controversial social issue. Your thoughts on its lasting impact, Roger?

SIMON: Well, aside from heightening awareness about the need for living wills, which I think has been discussed a lot. I think it's also heightened awareness in the public's mind about the incredible power of federal judges, that they can literally determined life or death, especially when the Supreme Court declines to act. And this may embolden Republicans in the Senate to change the rules and get confirmation for federal judges by a simple vote of 51 members. They have 55 members now, rather than a filibuster-breaking 60.

BROWNSTEIN: Lou, I agree with Roger, that this whole episode is going to increase the pressure on Republican leaders in Congress from their base to pursue that option, to eliminate the filibuster. On the other hand, the courts were the one institution in this whole sorry and sad story that produced the outcome the polls suggested most Americans supported, which was leaving the decision locally. And I do think...

DOBBS: Not just most Americans, an overwhelming number of Americans.

BROWNSTEIN: An overwhelming number of Americans.

In fact a majority of Republicans a majority evangelical Christians, a majority of regular churchgoers. So, in that way, I think Democrats believes that this gives Republicans an argument for the case for the need for an independent judiciary and I think could affect this debate over judges in unpredictable ways.

DOBBS: Well, unpredictability in the Senate right now seems to be the order of the day. And I don't know what it speaks to in terms of the leadership in the Senate. But it looks to be outright skullduggery, if you will, the Senate to take up the debate Wednesday on the ag (ph) jobs bill which would result in amnesty of as many as 11 -- rather, 1 million aliens. At the same time, the Senate leadership pushing away the real I.D. bill, Sensenbrenner legislation, even though they had agreed to put it on must-pass legislation. That is extraordinary. What's your reaction, Roger?

SIMON: I have a feeling you're going to see a trade-off here. That they're going to decide they just do not want to muddle the issue of funding the Iraq war with issues of national security and immigration.

DOBBS: Last question, speaking of controversy within the houses, Tom Delay, how much trouble is he in, Ron?

BROWNSTEIN: I think his comments this week on judges showed that he is in trouble, he is very much trying to rally his base to him. And I think that is a sign that he feels danger from the center of both chambers at this point. DOBBS: Ron Brownstein, Roger Simon, thank you both for what has been an extraordinary week.

Still ahead here, the results of our poll, a preview of what's ahead come Monday. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll. 90 percent of you say you support the goals of the Minuteman Project, 10 percent say you do not.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here Monday, when we'll have a full report on the Arizona Minuteman Project and a great deal more. And CNN, of course tonight, full coverage from the Vatican, from around the world, on the pope's condition.

Anderson Cooper next, live from St. Patricks Cathedral

Have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York.

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