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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Electing a new Pope; Nuclear Threat; Asia Strife; America's Schools Receive Failing Grade
Aired April 18, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, electing a new pope. The first round of voting ends without decision. How long will this election last? Who's likely to win? We'll have complete coverage from the Vatican.
In our special report, "Broken Borders," tonight, our courts are overwhelmed as well by illegal aliens. Hearings rarely conducted now in English, and illegal aliens are costing our hospitals billions of dollars. I'll be talking with Congressman Mark Foley, who says our lack of border security and illegal immigration are a national outrage.
And failing grades. Our schools failing to educate our children in critically important subjects. The consequence is nothing less than catastrophic for both our economy and national security. One of this country's most outspoken advocates of radical change in our educational system is our guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening. Cardinals from 52 countries today ended their first day of voting without electing a new pope. The cardinals will resume their voting in the Vatican tomorrow.
The rituals date back nearly a thousand years, but Vatican officials are taking very modern security measures to prevent any leaks from the conclave. Officials have installed equipment to jam electronic bugging devices and cell phones. Jennifer Eccleston reports from Vatican City.
Jennifer.
JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Lou.
Well, it was just about several hours ago, 8:04 p.m., approximately, that that black smoke billowed from the chimney above the Sistine Chapel, announcing at that stage that there was not a single cardinal that got the 77 votes, or two-thirds majority that would have elected a pope. But as you can imagine, there were thousands of people who were on hand at St. Peter's Square there to witness the event, watching it on large-screen televisions.
They were there throughout the day from early this morning, when the special mass for the election of the pope took place. And also throughout the day when we saw those first live pictures of the cardinals processing into the Sistine Chapel.
And there's been much talk over the last couple of days of the secrecy and the mystery surrounding a conclave. And we had a rare glimpse today of the pageantry and the practicality surrounding the election of the new pope. And as I said, that's because it was broadcast live with perhaps maybe millions, if not billions, of people seeing it.
Now, what we saw, there was a gathering of 115 electors, cardinal electors, that is, from 52 different countries. They proceeded from the Apostolic Palace into the Sistine Chapel, where they stood beneath the majestic frescos of Michelangelo.
Now, they filed through by seniority. They took seats at tables along the back walls of the Sistine Chapel facing each other.
Now, the dean in the College of Cardinals, Joseph Ratzinger, led the hymn "Come Holy Spirit," and that's because in Catholic tradition it is the Holy Spirit that was meant to guide the cardinal electors in the election of the new pope. They then swore an oath of secrecy altogether. Then one by one they walked up to a table, placed their hands on the Gospels and repeated that oath.
They then sat back down, and the master of ceremonies ordered everybody out. And all that remained were the 115 cardinal electors.
And as you know, there was a vote. It took place, and black smoke came up from the chimney.
So we do not have a new pope. After that we'll have tomorrow morning and in the afternoon two more votes. As I said, in the morning and in the afternoon. And again, those crowds will be there to wait and see what color the smoke is -- Lou?
DOBBS: Jennifer, thank you very much. Jennifer Eccleston from Vatican City.
In other news tonight, the White House threatening to take North Korea to the U.N. Security Council over Pyongyang's refusal to dismantle its nuclear weapons program. The White House declaration follows reports that North Korea may be trying to produce more weapons-grade plutonium with which to make nuclear warheads.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here is a picture of North Korea's main nuclear weapons complex in January with steam coming out of the reactor cooling tower. Here is a photo taken recently. No steam.
Was the plant shut down to harvest the fuel to make new nuclear weapons? Experts say that makes sense.
DAVID ALBRIGHT, INSTITUTE FOR SCIENCE & NATIONAL SECURITY: We expected the North Koreans to shut down the reactor this year to unload the fuel. I mean, we -- we -- the reactor has been operating two years already with this initial core. And we expect them to shut down the reactor in 2005 and unload it.
PILGRIM: But the shutdown could have other explanations. It could be a ploy to stir things up. Diplomatic talks have stalled. It could be a bluff to force for better terms in six-way diplomatic talks.
Fuel from this reactor is believed to have provided North Korea with six nuclear weapons. This could potentially add several more to that arsenal.
KURT CAMPBELL, FMR. DEPT. OF DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Some have suggested that this is an attempt to signal to the United States that if we don't talk seriously over the couple of -- next couple of months then this could happen.
PILGRIM: But others say the signal could have more to do with the U.N. Security Council. The U.S. nominee to the U.N. is John Bolton, who has taken a tough line on North Korea in the past. That may have touched a nerve in Pyongyang.
PAUL CHAMBERLAIN, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: The U.S. does have a hard-line policy towards North Korea. Mr. Bolton has been a firm advocate of that line. And it certainly -- I can understand why policymakers in Pyongyang would not be optimistic about his going to the U.N.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, experts say the fuel from the reactor could add two or three nuclear weapons to North Korea's arsenal. North Korea has made statements saying they "plan to unload the reactor to create a situation." But some argue, with North Korea already in possession of six nuclear weapons, Lou, the situation is already serious, and the situation is there.
DOBBS: As the Bush administration has repeatedly said, going to the U.N. Security Council, in which this administration certainly has little confidence, hardly addresses the issue with North Korea which places no premium on international standards or view. What is going on?
PILGRIM: Well, the situation has clearly deteriorated and time is running out. The nuclear experts we talked today said that it's very, very serious. That this situation is hard to determine what is going on, but it is a serious situation.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
North Korea is unfortunately not the only foreign policy crisis confronting the United States in Asia. China and Japan, two countries with very strong ties to this country, are now involved in the worst dispute with one another in three decades.
Tara Duffy reports from Beijing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TARA DUFFY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A deep divide between two Asian neighbors over violent protests and old war wounds that never quite healed. Japan's foreign minister, Nobutaka Machimura, making no headway in his effort to secure an apology from the Chinese government for the damage done by protesters to Japanese government missions in China.
But a more positive spin on the state of Sino-Japanese relations coming from both sides.
NOBUTAKA MACHIMURA, JAPANESE FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator); We have come up with fruitful outcomes besides disagreements. We decided to work together to have more communication and exchanges.
DUFFY: Machimura met with former Foreign Minister And Current State Councillor Tang Jiaxuan.
TANG JIAXUAN, CHINESE STATE COUNCILLOR (through translator): We have got important things in common. This is a step forward. And I think it will have a positive effect.
DUFFY: A sharp contrast to a Chinese foreign ministry official who described Sino-Japanese relations as at their worst state since the two normalized ties in 1972. That after protesters turned violent for the third weekend -- demonstrators expressing opposition to Japan's bid to become a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council and what they say is Japan's white-washing of its war-time atrocities. And before letting the situation get worse, time for some damage control.
FRANK CHING, POLITICAL ANALYST: China doesn't want the relationship to go sour. I think Japan doesn't want the relationship to go sour. But both countries are now facing rising nationalism on the part of their people. So it's something that has to be very carefully managed.
DUFFY: Managing nationalism at home is key for retaining vital ties abroad.
(on camera): Diplomacy all the more crucial to avoid damage to the $178 billion trade ties. And the cost of letting politics get in the way of business could hurt both Japan and China in ways neither wants to see.
Tara Duffy, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Domestic issues no less difficult for the White House. President Bush's failure to win wide support for his so-called Social Security reforms is a considerable problem for the administration. And today, President Bush made a new effort to sell his plan to voters during a visit to South Carolina. But President Bush's task has become much more difficult after last week's selloff on Wall Street.
Our senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The stock market has become political news. Here's why.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we're saying is, if you decide to, you should be allowed the opportunity to invest about a third of your payroll taxes in a conservative mix of bonds and stocks.
SCHNEIDER: Last week's stock market plunge was not good news for President Bush. Is there a link between people's assessment of the stock market and their support for the president's Social Security plan? You bet there is.
In a February Gallup poll, nearly half of those who said they expect the stock market to go up thought private Social Security accounts were a bad idea. Among those who thought the market would stay the same, two-thirds called private accounts a bad idea.
That number rose to three-quarters of those who thought the market would go down. If you are bearish on the market, you're really bearish on private Social Security accounts. And Americans were becoming bearish even before last week's market decline.
In February, more than twice as many people expected the stock market to go up rather than down in the next year. In early April, the two numbers were much closer -- fewer bulls, more bears.
What is spooking the stock market? Bad news about oil prices, retail sales, exports, corporate earnings.
Investors have to keep their focus on the long term. The president's pretty bullish about that.
BUSH: We've confronted those challenges head on with good economic policy. And today our economy is the fastest growing of any major industrialized nation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The dangers of stock market investing are in the short term. If you reach retirement age and the market suddenly takes a plunge, you're in real trouble.
Well, the dangers facing President Bush's Social Security plans are also short term. If it comes before Congress, and the stock market takes a plunge, the president's plan will be in real trouble -- Lou?
DOBBS: An interesting analysis, Bill. And thank you for that.
At the same time, 61 percent, according to the last poll I saw of those surveyed, saying they were opposed to these private accounts, or personal accounts, if you prefer. No one that I've spoken with, including here Friday on this broadcast, Karen Tumulty of "TIME" magazine; Ron Brownstein, at the "Los Angeles Times"; Roger Simon, "US News"; three of the very best political reporters, as you know.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
DOBBS: None of them can figure out why in the world the administration is, if you will, to use the expression, hell-bent on Social Security reform.
SCHNEIDER: Well, this is an idea that the president has had in his head. Since he first ran for Congress in Texas in 1978, he's been talking about changing the Social Security system.
You know, there such a thing as ideology, values, principles, he would call it. He believes the Social Security system does need to be changed. And he's presenting it as a crisis, an imminent crisis.
You know, one of the best cartoons I have seen, an editorial cartoon about Social Security, showed a Paul Revere figure riding through the streets saying, "The crisis is coming, the crisis is coming in 37 years." That's the way most Americans are looking at this.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, as always, thank you.
Up next, illegal aliens overwhelming many parts of our society and our economy, but certainly our courts, where English is rarely spoken in many of our courtrooms. We'll have that special report for you.
And the Minutemen volunteers planning a major expansion of their border patrols after their success in Arizona.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We report extensively on this broadcast on the invasion of illegal aliens into this country and the burden it places on all Americans, both citizens and naturalized citizens. And this week we're going to focus on the impact of illegal immigration on our judicial system. And that impact is severe.
Our nation's immigration courts are nothing less than chaotic. Hundreds of judges presiding over nearly 300,000 cases last year. Most of those were conducted in not English, but Spanish. And very few of the illegal aliens involved in those cases were deported.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The immigration court here at 26 Federal Plaza in New York City hears an average of 107 cases a day. Nationwide, this court system last year handled 300,000 immigration matters. Most immigration cases involve citizens of Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala and China. In practice, it is a Spanish-language court system. English is spoken only in 14 percent of the cases.
And it is Byzantine. It starts with a notice to appear, known in court circles as a run letter because 40 percent never show up. Matt Hayes is a former immigration attorney.
MATT HAYES, FRIENDS OF IMMIGRATION LAW ENFORCEMENT: I mean, most people call that a run letter. And it's something that depends entirely on the -- on the alien's willingness to come to a court whose purpose is to remove him from the United States. So, you know, the people who understand that never show up.
ROMANS: For those who do appear, there are many ways to stay in the country. There is asylum and relief for aliens with American family members, or who have been here for 10 years.
And there is voluntary departure. Seventeen percent of all removal proceedings end with the alien promising to go home. And there are multiple layers of appeal spilling into the federal courts.
LEE GELERNT, ACLU: Mistakes happen all the time in immigration court. Someone's life is at stake; their very liberty at stake. They may be people that have lived in this country for decades, have U.S. citizen spouses, U.S. citizen kids. There needs to be some meaningful review of what the immigration judge does.
ROMANS: But swollen immigration dockets and strained appeals court are the symptom of the problem.
PAUL ROSENZWEIG, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The real growth is because we're increasingly having more immigrants in the United States who are -- who the system is trying to deal with because they arrive illegally or potentially illegally. And so the real problem is, is that there's growing attractiveness to the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: And he says basically broken immigration policy is swamping the justice system. Now, Lou, there are people who are showing up and going to court, but there are millions and millions more who steer clear of the court system.
DOBBS: Let's make certain that we all understand this clearly. What you've just described is an immigration system in our court system, an immigration court system that is basically voluntary.
ROMANS: It is basically voluntary. Yes.
DOBBS: And the number of people -- the cases that are closed, they are closed because people don't show up?
ROMANS: There are people who are ordered removed from this country in absentia. So that is considered the person has been...
DOBBS: Wait a minute. You've got to say that again.
ROMANS: There are people who are ordered removed from the country in absentia. They don't show up. The judge says, you are ordered removed, but there is nobody there to order removed. I know.
DOBBS: I'm laughing because we have just entered the realm of the absurd. There's obviously nothing to laugh about, but this is utter madness.
ROMANS: Really, the only way to make sure someone is removed is if they are in custody in the first place. They are coming out of prison and they are trying to remove them. That's the best way to make sure they show up for their hearing, is if they are in handcuffs.
DOBBS: How does the United States government explain to a person who is immigrating here legally that it is worthwhile, that it is worth their time and trouble and their expense and energy to do that when this is going on?
ROMANS: I'm not sure.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you very much.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
DOBBS: One of the 50 states in this country tonight has rejected English as an official language, but only on a technicality. The governor of West Virginia vetoed a bill that would have made English the official language of West Virginia. That bill was unanimously passed by the West Virginia legislature.
The governor, Joe Manchin, says the state's constitution provides that only one topic per piece of legislation be allowed. The English portion was an addendum to a bill dealing with parks and recreational issues.
So West Virginia may not tonight have English as its official language, but we thought that you might like to know that in addition to 28 states in this country -- but the United States itself, of course, does not have English as an official language -- 31 other countries around the world do have English as their official language.
Coming up next here, the excessive immigration into this country, its impact on our environment. The nation's largest environmental group is now voting on whether to take on the immigration issue, if at all. Two of its members will join me next to debate that critically important issue.
And then, a new mission for the border volunteers that President Bush called vigilantes. How the Minuteman Project is succeeding and now expanding.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: We have obviously reported here quite extensively on the explosive population growth in this country and its impact on our economy, our society, our environment, our quality of life. One of the causes, of course, of that population explosion is the huge wave of illegal immigrants into this country.
Now the nation's largest environmental group is debating whether it should take action to push for even tighter immigration restrictions. That is, on legal immigrants.
I'm joined tonight by the president of the Sierra Club, Larry Fahn, who is against taking up the immigration issue at all. And joining us is Dick Snyder. He is a member of the Sierra Club who is in favor of stricter immigration limits. Both join us tonight from San Francisco.
Good to have you with us.
Let me turn to you first, Dick, to ask why you see this as a critical issue for the Sierra Club.
DICK SCHNEIDER, SIERRA CLUB MEMBER: Well, Lou, you mentioned it in the introduction. Our population is growing explosively.
We are at 300 million now. We're adding over three million people a year. The projections are for our population to double. That will have simply unacceptable environment impacts if we don't do something about it.
DOBBS: Larry, you and I have talked about this over time. Why is it the Sierra Club so concerned about nearly every aspect of the impact on the environment, in your judgment, appropriate in stepping away from the immigration issue?
LARRY FAHN, PRESIDENT, SIERRA CLUB: Well, Lou, good to be back with you. And as that great environmentalist Yogi Berra once said, "It feels like deja vu all over again."
We've had this debate many times at the Sierra Club. And I was here last year debating with the former governor of Colorado, Dick Lamm, who was leading a slate of candidates for the Sierra Club's board that wanted to really get into the issue of immigration. And our membership, which is now over 800,000 strong, wisely trounced that slate and said let's leave the immigration debate to others.
It's a tough issue. It's a toxic issue for those of us in the environmental community. And we'd like to focus on the global roots of immigration and population problems.
And like you, Lou, we're very concerned with the so-called free trade agenda. We'd like to defeat CAFTA. I would like to come on and talk about energy policy, forestry policy and other issues...
DOBBS: Well, you are welcome to come on any time as you know, Larry, to talk about free trade or the high cost of free trade, or just the mindless policies that have been pursued by the last several administrations on trade for this country.
But now, in terms of immigration, let me come back, if I may, to you, Dick. With the western states, 26 western states now in the grip of drought that is by some measures a 500-year drought and not likely to improve much at all over time, is that one of the things that is entering your thinking on the importance of controlling population in the western states in particular?
SCHNEIDER: Absolutely, Lou. It's not clear whether water is going to be the limiting resource, traffic congestion, air quality, or just simply loss of wildlife habitat. All of these intersect together. And they are all population-driven.
All of these environmental impacts are driven by the rate at which our population is growing. Already too large to be sustainable within the natural resource base of the area.
DOBBS: And Larry, as you and the Sierra Club focus on things like family planning -- you just mentioned trade policies, among others -- the Sierra Club involves itself in a wide range of policies that it deems appropriate in its impact -- in their impact on the environment. Why would you not see an (ph) immigration impact, legal and illegal in this case?
My concern, as you know, is, frankly, I have no problem with whatever levels are set for legal immigration into this country. Illegal immigration it seems an entirely rational issue for the club to deal with. Why would you not?
FAHN: Well, Lou, we're not saying that, you know, the issue of illegal immigration is not an important one, or it shouldn't be grappled with, as your show reminds us day after day. But the Sierra Club is really focusing on, as you mentioned, family planning. And just adding more troops to the borders, or building more fences to prevent people from coming into the country, it's like slapping a Band-Aid on the problem.
If we try to get, you know, fair trade, if we try to increase resources for family planning, we want to raise environmental standards and labor standards and wages around the world that would really start to lower the incentive for desperate people to want to flee to this country, because the population problem is a global one.
And whether they come here or stay in their country in Central America or South America or Mexico, it really doesn't matter. We need to attack the root causes of the global population explosion.
DOBBS: Dick, is it your judgment the Sierra Club is just simply too broad in its approach to these issues, and, therefore, is not as effective as it might be? What is your reaction to what Larry said? Because those concerns seem entirely valid certainly to someone like me.
SCHNEIDER: Sure. Well, it is important that we address population growth in other countries. But it's equally important that we address it here. We have world class ecosystems that deserve, demand, need our protection. And if we just wait for other countries to solve their own problems, even if we offer them help, our own environment is going to be destroyed in the meantime.
DOBBS: Your thoughts on that, Larry?
FAHN: Well, again, we're seeing the environment being destroyed all over the world from the Galapagos Islands to India and China. You know, one of the first things this President Bush did was to reinstitute the global gag rule, slashing resources for family planning, for birth control education, for neonatal health care, and other resources all around the world that would have slowed the population growth and helped to lower the incentive for people to come to this country.
And if we can do something about labor and environmental standards, both here and in the Third World, we could start having an impact on the immigration, the migration explosion into this country.
DOBBS: Is it too -- let me put it this way -- parochial for the Sierra Club to concern itself with the U.S. environment first given that you are a U.S.-based organization?
FAHN: Well, we're extremely focused on the U.S. environment. And, frankly, our plate is full.
I mean, from trying to protect our national forests from increased clear-cut logging, to saving wilderness areas, to creating a rational energy policy, we're fighting an administration that is probably one of the most hostile in history. And to add this immigration battle to that list on our agenda just serves very little purpose.
DOBBS: Dick Schneider, you have the last word tonight.
SCHNEIDER: Well, we just have to address this issue, Lou, because all the -- all the problems that the Sierra Club is working on are driven by our rapidly increasing population growth. If we don't get a handle on that, all those other issues are going to be lost.
DOBBS: Dick Schneider, Larry Fahn, we thank you both for being here. And, of course, the Sierra Club will be taking the vote, I believe it is, what, the 25th of April?
FAHN: Voting is going on now, and there's a week left, through April 25, Lou. And thanks for having us.
SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Lou.
BLITZER: Thank you both for being here.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is -- do you believe the impact of excessive illegal immigration is a legitimate environmental concern? Yes or no. Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast. Today's edition of the "Atlanta Journal Constitution" carried an editorial, an editorial calling for a rational immigration policy. Now, that's good thinking. Unfortunately, much of the rest of that editorial is not. The author of the editorial, Cynthia Tucker, doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. And as you and all viewers of this broadcast know, there's a world of difference. She writes about a growing backlash in this country against immigrants, referring to immigrant populations in the South and Midwest in particular. She means, of course, illegal aliens, but doesn't seem able to come to terms with explicit and clear definitions.
There is, in my opinion, absolutely no backlash against legal immigration in this country whatsoever, nor will there ever be, nor certainly should there ever be. There is, however, without question a backlash that is growing against illegal immigration and there should always be in my opinion. And then she writes that this broadcast is a forum for nativists bashing illegal immigration. Wow! Here is the direct quote: "CNN's Lou Dobbs has turned his popular TV show into a forum for nativists, bashing illegal immigration."
Now let me assure you, there is no nativism here. We specifically, in point of fact, embrace immigrants, legal immigrants and immigration. And we will continue to present the facts that demonstrate illegal immigration is an utter disaster for this country, our citizens, those born here and those who thankfully immigrated here, legally. If the "Atlanta Journal Constitution" truly disapproves of criticizing illegal immigration, and the unfair burdens it places on all Americans, born and naturalized, then I strongly believe that the "Journal Constitution" might get together its editorial board and rethink its editorial policy, for the good of the nation.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Gary in Charlotte, North Carolina: "Lou, I am sad to say that I have finally realized the true meaning of 'America, Land of the Free...' free food, free housing assistance, free medical care. Our government is giving illegal aliens everything for free while we Americans are struggling to keep jobs and pay medical bills."
Joanne Miller in Baldwinsville, New York: "I personally am sick of paying for illegal aliens' healthcare, education, and prison costs. Do you think if Americans stopped paying taxes, Washington would take notice?"
And B. Mica in Dover, Delaware: "I just don't understand why there is any doubt that an illegal alien is just that, 'illegal.' In my honest opinion, the fate of this nation depends on border security."
And, B., we obviously couldn't agree with you more. We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs@CNN.com. Each of you who have their e-mail is read on this broadcast receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." And if you like our e-mail newsletter, sign up on our website LouDobbs.com.
Coming up next here, the Minuteman Project, succeeding and expanding, taking on a new mission. Our special report is next.
Then -- hospitals closing down around the country because of the high cost of treating illegal aliens. One leading U.S. congressman will join us to tell us why the lack of border security and the illegal immigration crisis are in his view a national outrage.
And then, one educator's warning about what she calls a quiet crisis in our nation's public schools. Why few of our young citizens are learning science, technology and engineering, and how it could impact our economy and ultimately our national security. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, new developments in the Minuteman Project, the project that brought volunteers, hundreds of them, together in Arizona, to help patrol our southern border with Mexico -- you know, the same group of volunteers who Mexican President Vicente Fox called vigilantes and whom President George Bush also referred to as vigilantes, unfortunately.
The volunteer group today said it is planning now a major expansion along our southern border, and it plans to begin monitoring our northern border as well. The Minutemen are also launching a new operation to expose U.S. companies hiring illegal aliens. Casey Wian has our report. Casey?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's really a remarkable announcement today of an expansion of the Minuteman Project that's a result of the project's overwhelming exceeds, that even succeeds the expectation of its founders. Let me tell you some numbers we just got from the Minuteman Project today.
So far, as of today, 770 Minuteman volunteers have been trained by the project's organizers and monitor the border for at least one full day's shift. They say they've had over 10,000 calls and e-mails from people interested in volunteering to help monitor this 23-mile stretch of Arizona border. They also say the Minutemen have assisted in 280 apprehensions of illegal aliens along that stretch of the border. Now, the Border Patrol of course denies those numbers saying they are inflated. But it does not deny the fact that the Minutemen have in effect shut down that stretch of the Arizona border by their mere presence.
What is going to happen now is, Chris Simcox, one of the founders and organizers of the Minuteman Project, when the it -- when the project in Arizona ends at the end of this month, Simcox will begin consulting with organizers in California, Texas, and New Mexico to set up a Minuteman Project for the entire southern border, and they expect that to be operational by this fall -- perhaps in October -- and another expansion of the program, northward. They have volunteers in Michigan and Idaho who are also interested in monitoring the Canadian border and that could begin even sooner because Simcox says the volunteers don't need as much training because the Canadian border is not as violent as the Mexican border. Also, Jim Gilchrist, one of the other co-founders of the Minuteman Project is going to be leaving active duty in Arizona to begin, as you mentioned, Lou, concentrating on employers who hire illegal aliens. He's going to be organizing protests -- something he has shown with the Minuteman Project he's very good at -- organizing protests against employers of illegal aliens, and he's going to be after cities who sponsor day laborer centers which, of course, are overwhelmingly populated by a majority of illegal aliens. He's going to be traveling to Washington, D.C. next week to meet with the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus. That at the invitation of Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo who has sent the Minuteman Project a letter of congratulations saying, job well done so far. Lou?
DOBBS: You know, it's absolutely right, Casey. I had the opportunity to spend a little time down there with you along the border with the Minutemen. The success is remarkable. What is the reaction of Chris Simcox and Gilchrist and others, because they have -- basically, were vilified in the weeks and months leading up to this project. They have obviously conducted themselves extremely well. It's a terrific group of concerned, caring Americans. What's their reaction now, that they're succeeding and some of the rhetoric about them is tapering off a bit?
WIAN: Well, as you know I've spent a lot of time with Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist over the past several months -- the preparations leading up to the Minuteman Project, and then throughout the project so far this month. And before it began things were tense. They were very, I will say, stressed out. Very worried how things were going to go. Now it has shifted to overwhelming joy. They're thrilled. They feel vindicated. And that's reflected by the fact they are taking the project national -- Lou?
DOBBS: And demonstrating to a national audience the importance that remains in this country of citizens participating actively in their community, and being certainly an active -- about the issues that are great concern to them and, of course, importance to the country and certainly this is a high among those issues.
Casey Wian, thank you very much.
At the top of the hour, on "ANDERSON COOPER 360, keeping your children safe from predators.
Anderson Cooper is with us now to give us a preview.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST ANDERSON COOPER 360: Good afternoon, Lou.
We're devoting the entire hour tonight on protecting our kids from sexual predators in our neighborhoods. John Walsh from "America's Most Wanted" is going to join us live to talk about his latest efforts to keep sexual predators behind bars. We're also going to look at ways you can empower your kids to protect themselves. And ways you can find out if a registered sex offender lives in your neighborhood. The answers are just a few mouse clicks away. All that and more at the top of the hour -- Lou? DOBBS: Mouse clicks and minutes. The fact is, Anderson, that's a critically important issue to this country. The terrible tragedies that have befallen several children of late. We're looking forward to seeing your reporting and hearing your guests on this critical issue. Thank you.
COOPER: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up in just about 18 minutes.
Coming up next -- my guest says it's time for taxpayers in this country to be outraged -- for citizens to be outraged, because they are paying the bills for our broken boarders and illegal immigration. I'll be joined by a leading member of Congress who's calling upon the federal government to pay up and to own up to it's responsibilities for border security. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Illegal aliens are costing taxpayers around this country billions of dollars as a result of their care in our nation's hospitals. Congressman Mark Foley of Florida has been one of the most vocal members of Congress to call upon our federal government to take responsibility and to take action.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. MARK FOLEY (R), FLORIDA: We can't even determine how much is being spent. Hospitals are prohibited from finding out if somebody is legal or illegal. It's a Herculean task, but the bill is falling to the taxpayers. Hospital, not-for-profit and for-profit, are absorbing the cost of illegal immigration.
DOBBS: One of the hospitals, our Christine Romans reported last week, that hospital Jackson Memorial Hospital in South Florida, 90 percent of its patients illegal.
What can be done about something like that?
FOLEY: Well, first, we probably have to change the laws in which hospitals are allowed to a ask questions. It shouldn't be free healthcare. Even poor people, indigents who are in this country legally, there's an access of payment, through Medicare. Under this condition, the hospitals are stuck with the bill.
DOBBS: And at the same time Congress in its wisdom -- no offense, Congressman -- passes a bankruptcy bill in which most studies suggest at least half of those applying -- filing for bankruptcy in this country are doing so because of extraordinary catastrophic illness and bills that result. Here we are with non-U.S. Citizens giving them free healthcare.
What possible sense does that make?
FOLEY: It makes no sense. And the citizens should finally be outraged. They are paying the bills for the uncontrolled borders. We've done a poor job enforcing the borders, helping states. We won't deport anybody. We're afraid it will be mean spirited. And the public's picking up the tab.
DOBBS: Senator Bill Frist is basically saying, I don't care what the deal was made on the intelligence reform legislation, that would have attached Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to must-past legislation, that deal's off the table. And the president who gave, at least, lip service to supporting the Real I.D. legislation is very quiet here. Another game is being played on the American people. And it's an ugly game, frankly.
FOLEY: Well, it's a dangerous game, because the 9/11 Commission recommended this among many other reforms to clean up the problem with terrorism. We're not just talking about farm workers, not talking about restaurant employees. We're talking about potential terrorists. We got to get this right. And it's about removing people, including those farm workers or restaurant workers who came here illegally. We've got to look at their backgrounds. If they have broken the laws that should be the immediate invitation to deportation.
DOBBS: And the fact is, that ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, they can't even find 400 -- they can't even begin to find the 400,000 so-called criminal illegal aliens -- as if being an illegal alien weren't criminal itself -- but those who've committed serious crimes in this country once they cross the border illegally. They can't even find them.
FOLEY: Do you realize what it says to people thinking about coming here?
DOBBS: The door is wide open.
FOLEY: Just get across the line. They'll never find you. If they find you, they'll give you a hearing date. You don't have to show up for it. There's no penalty. You'll get employed. Somebody will hire you. They won't care about birth status. They won't care about Social Security numbers. They won't care about I.D.s.
DOBBS: What's it going to take to wake up the Congress and working men and women in this country who are the ones that are paying the price?
People say these illegal immigrants are providing a great service to the country. In point of fact, they are working hard. But the service they're providing is to those illegal employers and the taxpayer as always is carrying the burden.
FOLEY: That's why I think we have to get tough on every sector -- employers -- tough standards. Penalties not a slap on the wrist, financial penalties, including possibly requiring them to have insurance. When these people are hurt on the job, roofers, tree surgeons, you name it, who are illegal, they end up in our hospitals. You and I pay the bill, not the employer who hired them illegally, but you and I the taxpayer. That's wrong.
These are the things that may finally wake up Congress to the fact that this is as important, protecting our borders, as anything else we do. If we have time to pass all these other bills, names post offices for dead members of Congress, we better get this right. This is national homeland security.
DOBBS: We're talking almost four years, three-and-a-half years, in point of fact, after September 11. And we're talking about things like border security is important. It's mind-boggling.
FOLEY: Well, and they try to change the subject. Again, they try to say these are jobs no one else will take. These are people helping us...
DOBBS: They keep (ph) using the expression, willing workers and willing employers.
FOLEY: Well, you know what, I'm sure there are a lot of willing people on both ends -- that they can take advantage of an illegal employee and not pay taxes, and not pay bills, not pay insurance. But that's why the system has to stop. It's flawed. And when the neighbors of mine hear that over a billion dollars has gone to paying illegal immigrants healthcare, when Vietnam veterans aren't treated -- and I use that example because it crystallizes for people the urgency of this problem. If we're telling veterans to go without, who served this country honorably and ably and are now injured. And we're finding hundreds of millions, billions of dollars to pay for the bills for somebody who snuck in here, broke the law. You're talking about a crescendo of criticism that will rain on Congress, finally. And maybe we'll have the spine and the backbone to get the job done.
DOBBS: Congressman Foley, good to have you with us.
FOLEY: Thanks, Lou.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And our "Quote of the Day" tonight comes from a Congressional hearing on consumer safety. The chairman of the Consumer Product Safety Commission said, and I quote -- "Now, I could talk more about Customs, but we can only do so much. I mean, this committee knows the amount of actual product that is actually checked when it comes in the country."
Well, while Congress may know, it is a classified number. But we thought you should have an at least an estimate, and it is estimated that less than 5 percent of all products that come into this country are actually checked. But that's classified. It's obvious why the government would want to keep that number as secret as possible.
My next guest says there's a quiet crisis in our nation's school system. She says we are not preparing our children for the future, and our country's national security is at stake. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says our nation's youth faces what she calls a quiet crisis. Shirley Ann Jackson says not enough young Americans are learning science, engineering and technology, and she says that will have, of course, a profound impact not only on our economy, but our national security. Shirley Ann Jackson is president of the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, chairwoman of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, joining us tonight from Albany, New York. Good to have you with us.
SHIRLEY ANN JACKSON, PRESIDENT, RPI: Thank you. It's good to be here.
DOBBS: Let me ask you straight out -- why are in your judgment our schools failing so many of our young people, in particularly mathematics and natural sciences?
JACKSON: Well, I think we have to provide a context. The context has to do with our continuing capacity for innovation. And there really are three factors that come together. The first is the aging of the current science and engineering work force. The second is the fact that fewer of our young Americans are studying science and engineering. And the third is the decreasing flow of talent from abroad. Now, when we put that...
DOBBS: Sure, go ahead.
JACKSON: If we put those together, then the three together provide and lead to a quiet crisis, which if we don't address it, will lead to a day of reckoning that can threaten our national and economic security.
DOBBS: Dr. Jackson, I couldn't agree with you more. But let me be parochial and worry about young people who are the absolute bedrock of our future. Why in the world can we not move and motivate and incentivize our young people to study mathematics and natural sciences in this country?
JACKSON: Well, Lou, first, we have to value science and engineering and value those who would study science and math on the pathway to careers in science and engineering. And this requires on our part a national focus, a national discussion, a national will and national leadership to attract more of our young people into science and engineering.
DOBBS: I can't think, Dr. Jackson, of a national leader right now of a national stature that is saying, let's motivate our young people. When you and I were in school, we had, if you will, the competition from the Cold War. The importance galvanized I think many of our leaders to talk about the importance of engineering, of mathematics, of natural sciences. That's absent today. Where are we going to find that kind of leadership, when our public schools are failing half of our minorities? They are -- our basic scores are dropping for the broad population of our student body. What are we to do here?
JACKSON: Well, you know, Lou, during that period that you refer to, what elevated our teaching in science and math was driven by what focused the nation at that point. And we had as a focus then the space race, which was in reality a science race. DOBBS: Absolutely.
JACKSON: And that caused us to decide as a nation that we needed to improve the teaching of science and math, and we needed to encourage more youngsters, in fact, to study those subjects.
We need a focal point today. That focal point, I believe, is energy security. Why? Because we cannot drill our way to energy security alone. We have to innovate our way to energy security. And so...
DOBBS: Now, we...
JACKSON: ... for us, energy security is the space race for this millennium.
DOBBS: I think you are right. I think that's a terrific idea, and I hope you will come back soon, Dr. Shirley Ann Jackson, to talk about that more.
JACKSON: Thank you. I hope I will.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
Still ahead -- another example of outsourcing from what should be an unlikely source, at least. And the results of our poll tonight. A preview of what's coming up tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: And finally tonight, another example of outsourcing from none other than the U.S. government. A viewer from Sebastian, Florida, James Herrington (ph), sent us this bear. It is an official product of the U.S. Postal Service. That's right, U.S. Postal Service. One would think that official products from any government office would be made in the USA. But this one, unfortunately, was made in China.
We want to encourage you, whenever you find something this out of sync with what is a better life for Americans, you send it along to us. We're going to donate this to a worthy young American, right after the show.
And now, we thank you for being with us. Good night for all of us here. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
COOPER: Lou, thanks very much.
END
Aired April 18, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, electing a new pope. The first round of voting ends without decision. How long will this election last? Who's likely to win? We'll have complete coverage from the Vatican.
In our special report, "Broken Borders," tonight, our courts are overwhelmed as well by illegal aliens. Hearings rarely conducted now in English, and illegal aliens are costing our hospitals billions of dollars. I'll be talking with Congressman Mark Foley, who says our lack of border security and illegal immigration are a national outrage.
And failing grades. Our schools failing to educate our children in critically important subjects. The consequence is nothing less than catastrophic for both our economy and national security. One of this country's most outspoken advocates of radical change in our educational system is our guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening. Cardinals from 52 countries today ended their first day of voting without electing a new pope. The cardinals will resume their voting in the Vatican tomorrow.
The rituals date back nearly a thousand years, but Vatican officials are taking very modern security measures to prevent any leaks from the conclave. Officials have installed equipment to jam electronic bugging devices and cell phones. Jennifer Eccleston reports from Vatican City.
Jennifer.
JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Lou.
Well, it was just about several hours ago, 8:04 p.m., approximately, that that black smoke billowed from the chimney above the Sistine Chapel, announcing at that stage that there was not a single cardinal that got the 77 votes, or two-thirds majority that would have elected a pope. But as you can imagine, there were thousands of people who were on hand at St. Peter's Square there to witness the event, watching it on large-screen televisions.
They were there throughout the day from early this morning, when the special mass for the election of the pope took place. And also throughout the day when we saw those first live pictures of the cardinals processing into the Sistine Chapel.
And there's been much talk over the last couple of days of the secrecy and the mystery surrounding a conclave. And we had a rare glimpse today of the pageantry and the practicality surrounding the election of the new pope. And as I said, that's because it was broadcast live with perhaps maybe millions, if not billions, of people seeing it.
Now, what we saw, there was a gathering of 115 electors, cardinal electors, that is, from 52 different countries. They proceeded from the Apostolic Palace into the Sistine Chapel, where they stood beneath the majestic frescos of Michelangelo.
Now, they filed through by seniority. They took seats at tables along the back walls of the Sistine Chapel facing each other.
Now, the dean in the College of Cardinals, Joseph Ratzinger, led the hymn "Come Holy Spirit," and that's because in Catholic tradition it is the Holy Spirit that was meant to guide the cardinal electors in the election of the new pope. They then swore an oath of secrecy altogether. Then one by one they walked up to a table, placed their hands on the Gospels and repeated that oath.
They then sat back down, and the master of ceremonies ordered everybody out. And all that remained were the 115 cardinal electors.
And as you know, there was a vote. It took place, and black smoke came up from the chimney.
So we do not have a new pope. After that we'll have tomorrow morning and in the afternoon two more votes. As I said, in the morning and in the afternoon. And again, those crowds will be there to wait and see what color the smoke is -- Lou?
DOBBS: Jennifer, thank you very much. Jennifer Eccleston from Vatican City.
In other news tonight, the White House threatening to take North Korea to the U.N. Security Council over Pyongyang's refusal to dismantle its nuclear weapons program. The White House declaration follows reports that North Korea may be trying to produce more weapons-grade plutonium with which to make nuclear warheads.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here is a picture of North Korea's main nuclear weapons complex in January with steam coming out of the reactor cooling tower. Here is a photo taken recently. No steam.
Was the plant shut down to harvest the fuel to make new nuclear weapons? Experts say that makes sense.
DAVID ALBRIGHT, INSTITUTE FOR SCIENCE & NATIONAL SECURITY: We expected the North Koreans to shut down the reactor this year to unload the fuel. I mean, we -- we -- the reactor has been operating two years already with this initial core. And we expect them to shut down the reactor in 2005 and unload it.
PILGRIM: But the shutdown could have other explanations. It could be a ploy to stir things up. Diplomatic talks have stalled. It could be a bluff to force for better terms in six-way diplomatic talks.
Fuel from this reactor is believed to have provided North Korea with six nuclear weapons. This could potentially add several more to that arsenal.
KURT CAMPBELL, FMR. DEPT. OF DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Some have suggested that this is an attempt to signal to the United States that if we don't talk seriously over the couple of -- next couple of months then this could happen.
PILGRIM: But others say the signal could have more to do with the U.N. Security Council. The U.S. nominee to the U.N. is John Bolton, who has taken a tough line on North Korea in the past. That may have touched a nerve in Pyongyang.
PAUL CHAMBERLAIN, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: The U.S. does have a hard-line policy towards North Korea. Mr. Bolton has been a firm advocate of that line. And it certainly -- I can understand why policymakers in Pyongyang would not be optimistic about his going to the U.N.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, experts say the fuel from the reactor could add two or three nuclear weapons to North Korea's arsenal. North Korea has made statements saying they "plan to unload the reactor to create a situation." But some argue, with North Korea already in possession of six nuclear weapons, Lou, the situation is already serious, and the situation is there.
DOBBS: As the Bush administration has repeatedly said, going to the U.N. Security Council, in which this administration certainly has little confidence, hardly addresses the issue with North Korea which places no premium on international standards or view. What is going on?
PILGRIM: Well, the situation has clearly deteriorated and time is running out. The nuclear experts we talked today said that it's very, very serious. That this situation is hard to determine what is going on, but it is a serious situation.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
North Korea is unfortunately not the only foreign policy crisis confronting the United States in Asia. China and Japan, two countries with very strong ties to this country, are now involved in the worst dispute with one another in three decades.
Tara Duffy reports from Beijing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TARA DUFFY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A deep divide between two Asian neighbors over violent protests and old war wounds that never quite healed. Japan's foreign minister, Nobutaka Machimura, making no headway in his effort to secure an apology from the Chinese government for the damage done by protesters to Japanese government missions in China.
But a more positive spin on the state of Sino-Japanese relations coming from both sides.
NOBUTAKA MACHIMURA, JAPANESE FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator); We have come up with fruitful outcomes besides disagreements. We decided to work together to have more communication and exchanges.
DUFFY: Machimura met with former Foreign Minister And Current State Councillor Tang Jiaxuan.
TANG JIAXUAN, CHINESE STATE COUNCILLOR (through translator): We have got important things in common. This is a step forward. And I think it will have a positive effect.
DUFFY: A sharp contrast to a Chinese foreign ministry official who described Sino-Japanese relations as at their worst state since the two normalized ties in 1972. That after protesters turned violent for the third weekend -- demonstrators expressing opposition to Japan's bid to become a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council and what they say is Japan's white-washing of its war-time atrocities. And before letting the situation get worse, time for some damage control.
FRANK CHING, POLITICAL ANALYST: China doesn't want the relationship to go sour. I think Japan doesn't want the relationship to go sour. But both countries are now facing rising nationalism on the part of their people. So it's something that has to be very carefully managed.
DUFFY: Managing nationalism at home is key for retaining vital ties abroad.
(on camera): Diplomacy all the more crucial to avoid damage to the $178 billion trade ties. And the cost of letting politics get in the way of business could hurt both Japan and China in ways neither wants to see.
Tara Duffy, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Domestic issues no less difficult for the White House. President Bush's failure to win wide support for his so-called Social Security reforms is a considerable problem for the administration. And today, President Bush made a new effort to sell his plan to voters during a visit to South Carolina. But President Bush's task has become much more difficult after last week's selloff on Wall Street.
Our senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The stock market has become political news. Here's why.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we're saying is, if you decide to, you should be allowed the opportunity to invest about a third of your payroll taxes in a conservative mix of bonds and stocks.
SCHNEIDER: Last week's stock market plunge was not good news for President Bush. Is there a link between people's assessment of the stock market and their support for the president's Social Security plan? You bet there is.
In a February Gallup poll, nearly half of those who said they expect the stock market to go up thought private Social Security accounts were a bad idea. Among those who thought the market would stay the same, two-thirds called private accounts a bad idea.
That number rose to three-quarters of those who thought the market would go down. If you are bearish on the market, you're really bearish on private Social Security accounts. And Americans were becoming bearish even before last week's market decline.
In February, more than twice as many people expected the stock market to go up rather than down in the next year. In early April, the two numbers were much closer -- fewer bulls, more bears.
What is spooking the stock market? Bad news about oil prices, retail sales, exports, corporate earnings.
Investors have to keep their focus on the long term. The president's pretty bullish about that.
BUSH: We've confronted those challenges head on with good economic policy. And today our economy is the fastest growing of any major industrialized nation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The dangers of stock market investing are in the short term. If you reach retirement age and the market suddenly takes a plunge, you're in real trouble.
Well, the dangers facing President Bush's Social Security plans are also short term. If it comes before Congress, and the stock market takes a plunge, the president's plan will be in real trouble -- Lou?
DOBBS: An interesting analysis, Bill. And thank you for that.
At the same time, 61 percent, according to the last poll I saw of those surveyed, saying they were opposed to these private accounts, or personal accounts, if you prefer. No one that I've spoken with, including here Friday on this broadcast, Karen Tumulty of "TIME" magazine; Ron Brownstein, at the "Los Angeles Times"; Roger Simon, "US News"; three of the very best political reporters, as you know.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
DOBBS: None of them can figure out why in the world the administration is, if you will, to use the expression, hell-bent on Social Security reform.
SCHNEIDER: Well, this is an idea that the president has had in his head. Since he first ran for Congress in Texas in 1978, he's been talking about changing the Social Security system.
You know, there such a thing as ideology, values, principles, he would call it. He believes the Social Security system does need to be changed. And he's presenting it as a crisis, an imminent crisis.
You know, one of the best cartoons I have seen, an editorial cartoon about Social Security, showed a Paul Revere figure riding through the streets saying, "The crisis is coming, the crisis is coming in 37 years." That's the way most Americans are looking at this.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, as always, thank you.
Up next, illegal aliens overwhelming many parts of our society and our economy, but certainly our courts, where English is rarely spoken in many of our courtrooms. We'll have that special report for you.
And the Minutemen volunteers planning a major expansion of their border patrols after their success in Arizona.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We report extensively on this broadcast on the invasion of illegal aliens into this country and the burden it places on all Americans, both citizens and naturalized citizens. And this week we're going to focus on the impact of illegal immigration on our judicial system. And that impact is severe.
Our nation's immigration courts are nothing less than chaotic. Hundreds of judges presiding over nearly 300,000 cases last year. Most of those were conducted in not English, but Spanish. And very few of the illegal aliens involved in those cases were deported.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The immigration court here at 26 Federal Plaza in New York City hears an average of 107 cases a day. Nationwide, this court system last year handled 300,000 immigration matters. Most immigration cases involve citizens of Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala and China. In practice, it is a Spanish-language court system. English is spoken only in 14 percent of the cases.
And it is Byzantine. It starts with a notice to appear, known in court circles as a run letter because 40 percent never show up. Matt Hayes is a former immigration attorney.
MATT HAYES, FRIENDS OF IMMIGRATION LAW ENFORCEMENT: I mean, most people call that a run letter. And it's something that depends entirely on the -- on the alien's willingness to come to a court whose purpose is to remove him from the United States. So, you know, the people who understand that never show up.
ROMANS: For those who do appear, there are many ways to stay in the country. There is asylum and relief for aliens with American family members, or who have been here for 10 years.
And there is voluntary departure. Seventeen percent of all removal proceedings end with the alien promising to go home. And there are multiple layers of appeal spilling into the federal courts.
LEE GELERNT, ACLU: Mistakes happen all the time in immigration court. Someone's life is at stake; their very liberty at stake. They may be people that have lived in this country for decades, have U.S. citizen spouses, U.S. citizen kids. There needs to be some meaningful review of what the immigration judge does.
ROMANS: But swollen immigration dockets and strained appeals court are the symptom of the problem.
PAUL ROSENZWEIG, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The real growth is because we're increasingly having more immigrants in the United States who are -- who the system is trying to deal with because they arrive illegally or potentially illegally. And so the real problem is, is that there's growing attractiveness to the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: And he says basically broken immigration policy is swamping the justice system. Now, Lou, there are people who are showing up and going to court, but there are millions and millions more who steer clear of the court system.
DOBBS: Let's make certain that we all understand this clearly. What you've just described is an immigration system in our court system, an immigration court system that is basically voluntary.
ROMANS: It is basically voluntary. Yes.
DOBBS: And the number of people -- the cases that are closed, they are closed because people don't show up?
ROMANS: There are people who are ordered removed from this country in absentia. So that is considered the person has been...
DOBBS: Wait a minute. You've got to say that again.
ROMANS: There are people who are ordered removed from the country in absentia. They don't show up. The judge says, you are ordered removed, but there is nobody there to order removed. I know.
DOBBS: I'm laughing because we have just entered the realm of the absurd. There's obviously nothing to laugh about, but this is utter madness.
ROMANS: Really, the only way to make sure someone is removed is if they are in custody in the first place. They are coming out of prison and they are trying to remove them. That's the best way to make sure they show up for their hearing, is if they are in handcuffs.
DOBBS: How does the United States government explain to a person who is immigrating here legally that it is worthwhile, that it is worth their time and trouble and their expense and energy to do that when this is going on?
ROMANS: I'm not sure.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you very much.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
DOBBS: One of the 50 states in this country tonight has rejected English as an official language, but only on a technicality. The governor of West Virginia vetoed a bill that would have made English the official language of West Virginia. That bill was unanimously passed by the West Virginia legislature.
The governor, Joe Manchin, says the state's constitution provides that only one topic per piece of legislation be allowed. The English portion was an addendum to a bill dealing with parks and recreational issues.
So West Virginia may not tonight have English as its official language, but we thought that you might like to know that in addition to 28 states in this country -- but the United States itself, of course, does not have English as an official language -- 31 other countries around the world do have English as their official language.
Coming up next here, the excessive immigration into this country, its impact on our environment. The nation's largest environmental group is now voting on whether to take on the immigration issue, if at all. Two of its members will join me next to debate that critically important issue.
And then, a new mission for the border volunteers that President Bush called vigilantes. How the Minuteman Project is succeeding and now expanding.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: We have obviously reported here quite extensively on the explosive population growth in this country and its impact on our economy, our society, our environment, our quality of life. One of the causes, of course, of that population explosion is the huge wave of illegal immigrants into this country.
Now the nation's largest environmental group is debating whether it should take action to push for even tighter immigration restrictions. That is, on legal immigrants.
I'm joined tonight by the president of the Sierra Club, Larry Fahn, who is against taking up the immigration issue at all. And joining us is Dick Snyder. He is a member of the Sierra Club who is in favor of stricter immigration limits. Both join us tonight from San Francisco.
Good to have you with us.
Let me turn to you first, Dick, to ask why you see this as a critical issue for the Sierra Club.
DICK SCHNEIDER, SIERRA CLUB MEMBER: Well, Lou, you mentioned it in the introduction. Our population is growing explosively.
We are at 300 million now. We're adding over three million people a year. The projections are for our population to double. That will have simply unacceptable environment impacts if we don't do something about it.
DOBBS: Larry, you and I have talked about this over time. Why is it the Sierra Club so concerned about nearly every aspect of the impact on the environment, in your judgment, appropriate in stepping away from the immigration issue?
LARRY FAHN, PRESIDENT, SIERRA CLUB: Well, Lou, good to be back with you. And as that great environmentalist Yogi Berra once said, "It feels like deja vu all over again."
We've had this debate many times at the Sierra Club. And I was here last year debating with the former governor of Colorado, Dick Lamm, who was leading a slate of candidates for the Sierra Club's board that wanted to really get into the issue of immigration. And our membership, which is now over 800,000 strong, wisely trounced that slate and said let's leave the immigration debate to others.
It's a tough issue. It's a toxic issue for those of us in the environmental community. And we'd like to focus on the global roots of immigration and population problems.
And like you, Lou, we're very concerned with the so-called free trade agenda. We'd like to defeat CAFTA. I would like to come on and talk about energy policy, forestry policy and other issues...
DOBBS: Well, you are welcome to come on any time as you know, Larry, to talk about free trade or the high cost of free trade, or just the mindless policies that have been pursued by the last several administrations on trade for this country.
But now, in terms of immigration, let me come back, if I may, to you, Dick. With the western states, 26 western states now in the grip of drought that is by some measures a 500-year drought and not likely to improve much at all over time, is that one of the things that is entering your thinking on the importance of controlling population in the western states in particular?
SCHNEIDER: Absolutely, Lou. It's not clear whether water is going to be the limiting resource, traffic congestion, air quality, or just simply loss of wildlife habitat. All of these intersect together. And they are all population-driven.
All of these environmental impacts are driven by the rate at which our population is growing. Already too large to be sustainable within the natural resource base of the area.
DOBBS: And Larry, as you and the Sierra Club focus on things like family planning -- you just mentioned trade policies, among others -- the Sierra Club involves itself in a wide range of policies that it deems appropriate in its impact -- in their impact on the environment. Why would you not see an (ph) immigration impact, legal and illegal in this case?
My concern, as you know, is, frankly, I have no problem with whatever levels are set for legal immigration into this country. Illegal immigration it seems an entirely rational issue for the club to deal with. Why would you not?
FAHN: Well, Lou, we're not saying that, you know, the issue of illegal immigration is not an important one, or it shouldn't be grappled with, as your show reminds us day after day. But the Sierra Club is really focusing on, as you mentioned, family planning. And just adding more troops to the borders, or building more fences to prevent people from coming into the country, it's like slapping a Band-Aid on the problem.
If we try to get, you know, fair trade, if we try to increase resources for family planning, we want to raise environmental standards and labor standards and wages around the world that would really start to lower the incentive for desperate people to want to flee to this country, because the population problem is a global one.
And whether they come here or stay in their country in Central America or South America or Mexico, it really doesn't matter. We need to attack the root causes of the global population explosion.
DOBBS: Dick, is it your judgment the Sierra Club is just simply too broad in its approach to these issues, and, therefore, is not as effective as it might be? What is your reaction to what Larry said? Because those concerns seem entirely valid certainly to someone like me.
SCHNEIDER: Sure. Well, it is important that we address population growth in other countries. But it's equally important that we address it here. We have world class ecosystems that deserve, demand, need our protection. And if we just wait for other countries to solve their own problems, even if we offer them help, our own environment is going to be destroyed in the meantime.
DOBBS: Your thoughts on that, Larry?
FAHN: Well, again, we're seeing the environment being destroyed all over the world from the Galapagos Islands to India and China. You know, one of the first things this President Bush did was to reinstitute the global gag rule, slashing resources for family planning, for birth control education, for neonatal health care, and other resources all around the world that would have slowed the population growth and helped to lower the incentive for people to come to this country.
And if we can do something about labor and environmental standards, both here and in the Third World, we could start having an impact on the immigration, the migration explosion into this country.
DOBBS: Is it too -- let me put it this way -- parochial for the Sierra Club to concern itself with the U.S. environment first given that you are a U.S.-based organization?
FAHN: Well, we're extremely focused on the U.S. environment. And, frankly, our plate is full.
I mean, from trying to protect our national forests from increased clear-cut logging, to saving wilderness areas, to creating a rational energy policy, we're fighting an administration that is probably one of the most hostile in history. And to add this immigration battle to that list on our agenda just serves very little purpose.
DOBBS: Dick Schneider, you have the last word tonight.
SCHNEIDER: Well, we just have to address this issue, Lou, because all the -- all the problems that the Sierra Club is working on are driven by our rapidly increasing population growth. If we don't get a handle on that, all those other issues are going to be lost.
DOBBS: Dick Schneider, Larry Fahn, we thank you both for being here. And, of course, the Sierra Club will be taking the vote, I believe it is, what, the 25th of April?
FAHN: Voting is going on now, and there's a week left, through April 25, Lou. And thanks for having us.
SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Lou.
BLITZER: Thank you both for being here.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is -- do you believe the impact of excessive illegal immigration is a legitimate environmental concern? Yes or no. Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast. Today's edition of the "Atlanta Journal Constitution" carried an editorial, an editorial calling for a rational immigration policy. Now, that's good thinking. Unfortunately, much of the rest of that editorial is not. The author of the editorial, Cynthia Tucker, doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. And as you and all viewers of this broadcast know, there's a world of difference. She writes about a growing backlash in this country against immigrants, referring to immigrant populations in the South and Midwest in particular. She means, of course, illegal aliens, but doesn't seem able to come to terms with explicit and clear definitions.
There is, in my opinion, absolutely no backlash against legal immigration in this country whatsoever, nor will there ever be, nor certainly should there ever be. There is, however, without question a backlash that is growing against illegal immigration and there should always be in my opinion. And then she writes that this broadcast is a forum for nativists bashing illegal immigration. Wow! Here is the direct quote: "CNN's Lou Dobbs has turned his popular TV show into a forum for nativists, bashing illegal immigration."
Now let me assure you, there is no nativism here. We specifically, in point of fact, embrace immigrants, legal immigrants and immigration. And we will continue to present the facts that demonstrate illegal immigration is an utter disaster for this country, our citizens, those born here and those who thankfully immigrated here, legally. If the "Atlanta Journal Constitution" truly disapproves of criticizing illegal immigration, and the unfair burdens it places on all Americans, born and naturalized, then I strongly believe that the "Journal Constitution" might get together its editorial board and rethink its editorial policy, for the good of the nation.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Gary in Charlotte, North Carolina: "Lou, I am sad to say that I have finally realized the true meaning of 'America, Land of the Free...' free food, free housing assistance, free medical care. Our government is giving illegal aliens everything for free while we Americans are struggling to keep jobs and pay medical bills."
Joanne Miller in Baldwinsville, New York: "I personally am sick of paying for illegal aliens' healthcare, education, and prison costs. Do you think if Americans stopped paying taxes, Washington would take notice?"
And B. Mica in Dover, Delaware: "I just don't understand why there is any doubt that an illegal alien is just that, 'illegal.' In my honest opinion, the fate of this nation depends on border security."
And, B., we obviously couldn't agree with you more. We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs@CNN.com. Each of you who have their e-mail is read on this broadcast receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." And if you like our e-mail newsletter, sign up on our website LouDobbs.com.
Coming up next here, the Minuteman Project, succeeding and expanding, taking on a new mission. Our special report is next.
Then -- hospitals closing down around the country because of the high cost of treating illegal aliens. One leading U.S. congressman will join us to tell us why the lack of border security and the illegal immigration crisis are in his view a national outrage.
And then, one educator's warning about what she calls a quiet crisis in our nation's public schools. Why few of our young citizens are learning science, technology and engineering, and how it could impact our economy and ultimately our national security. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, new developments in the Minuteman Project, the project that brought volunteers, hundreds of them, together in Arizona, to help patrol our southern border with Mexico -- you know, the same group of volunteers who Mexican President Vicente Fox called vigilantes and whom President George Bush also referred to as vigilantes, unfortunately.
The volunteer group today said it is planning now a major expansion along our southern border, and it plans to begin monitoring our northern border as well. The Minutemen are also launching a new operation to expose U.S. companies hiring illegal aliens. Casey Wian has our report. Casey?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's really a remarkable announcement today of an expansion of the Minuteman Project that's a result of the project's overwhelming exceeds, that even succeeds the expectation of its founders. Let me tell you some numbers we just got from the Minuteman Project today.
So far, as of today, 770 Minuteman volunteers have been trained by the project's organizers and monitor the border for at least one full day's shift. They say they've had over 10,000 calls and e-mails from people interested in volunteering to help monitor this 23-mile stretch of Arizona border. They also say the Minutemen have assisted in 280 apprehensions of illegal aliens along that stretch of the border. Now, the Border Patrol of course denies those numbers saying they are inflated. But it does not deny the fact that the Minutemen have in effect shut down that stretch of the Arizona border by their mere presence.
What is going to happen now is, Chris Simcox, one of the founders and organizers of the Minuteman Project, when the it -- when the project in Arizona ends at the end of this month, Simcox will begin consulting with organizers in California, Texas, and New Mexico to set up a Minuteman Project for the entire southern border, and they expect that to be operational by this fall -- perhaps in October -- and another expansion of the program, northward. They have volunteers in Michigan and Idaho who are also interested in monitoring the Canadian border and that could begin even sooner because Simcox says the volunteers don't need as much training because the Canadian border is not as violent as the Mexican border. Also, Jim Gilchrist, one of the other co-founders of the Minuteman Project is going to be leaving active duty in Arizona to begin, as you mentioned, Lou, concentrating on employers who hire illegal aliens. He's going to be organizing protests -- something he has shown with the Minuteman Project he's very good at -- organizing protests against employers of illegal aliens, and he's going to be after cities who sponsor day laborer centers which, of course, are overwhelmingly populated by a majority of illegal aliens. He's going to be traveling to Washington, D.C. next week to meet with the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus. That at the invitation of Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo who has sent the Minuteman Project a letter of congratulations saying, job well done so far. Lou?
DOBBS: You know, it's absolutely right, Casey. I had the opportunity to spend a little time down there with you along the border with the Minutemen. The success is remarkable. What is the reaction of Chris Simcox and Gilchrist and others, because they have -- basically, were vilified in the weeks and months leading up to this project. They have obviously conducted themselves extremely well. It's a terrific group of concerned, caring Americans. What's their reaction now, that they're succeeding and some of the rhetoric about them is tapering off a bit?
WIAN: Well, as you know I've spent a lot of time with Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist over the past several months -- the preparations leading up to the Minuteman Project, and then throughout the project so far this month. And before it began things were tense. They were very, I will say, stressed out. Very worried how things were going to go. Now it has shifted to overwhelming joy. They're thrilled. They feel vindicated. And that's reflected by the fact they are taking the project national -- Lou?
DOBBS: And demonstrating to a national audience the importance that remains in this country of citizens participating actively in their community, and being certainly an active -- about the issues that are great concern to them and, of course, importance to the country and certainly this is a high among those issues.
Casey Wian, thank you very much.
At the top of the hour, on "ANDERSON COOPER 360, keeping your children safe from predators.
Anderson Cooper is with us now to give us a preview.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST ANDERSON COOPER 360: Good afternoon, Lou.
We're devoting the entire hour tonight on protecting our kids from sexual predators in our neighborhoods. John Walsh from "America's Most Wanted" is going to join us live to talk about his latest efforts to keep sexual predators behind bars. We're also going to look at ways you can empower your kids to protect themselves. And ways you can find out if a registered sex offender lives in your neighborhood. The answers are just a few mouse clicks away. All that and more at the top of the hour -- Lou? DOBBS: Mouse clicks and minutes. The fact is, Anderson, that's a critically important issue to this country. The terrible tragedies that have befallen several children of late. We're looking forward to seeing your reporting and hearing your guests on this critical issue. Thank you.
COOPER: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up in just about 18 minutes.
Coming up next -- my guest says it's time for taxpayers in this country to be outraged -- for citizens to be outraged, because they are paying the bills for our broken boarders and illegal immigration. I'll be joined by a leading member of Congress who's calling upon the federal government to pay up and to own up to it's responsibilities for border security. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Illegal aliens are costing taxpayers around this country billions of dollars as a result of their care in our nation's hospitals. Congressman Mark Foley of Florida has been one of the most vocal members of Congress to call upon our federal government to take responsibility and to take action.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. MARK FOLEY (R), FLORIDA: We can't even determine how much is being spent. Hospitals are prohibited from finding out if somebody is legal or illegal. It's a Herculean task, but the bill is falling to the taxpayers. Hospital, not-for-profit and for-profit, are absorbing the cost of illegal immigration.
DOBBS: One of the hospitals, our Christine Romans reported last week, that hospital Jackson Memorial Hospital in South Florida, 90 percent of its patients illegal.
What can be done about something like that?
FOLEY: Well, first, we probably have to change the laws in which hospitals are allowed to a ask questions. It shouldn't be free healthcare. Even poor people, indigents who are in this country legally, there's an access of payment, through Medicare. Under this condition, the hospitals are stuck with the bill.
DOBBS: And at the same time Congress in its wisdom -- no offense, Congressman -- passes a bankruptcy bill in which most studies suggest at least half of those applying -- filing for bankruptcy in this country are doing so because of extraordinary catastrophic illness and bills that result. Here we are with non-U.S. Citizens giving them free healthcare.
What possible sense does that make?
FOLEY: It makes no sense. And the citizens should finally be outraged. They are paying the bills for the uncontrolled borders. We've done a poor job enforcing the borders, helping states. We won't deport anybody. We're afraid it will be mean spirited. And the public's picking up the tab.
DOBBS: Senator Bill Frist is basically saying, I don't care what the deal was made on the intelligence reform legislation, that would have attached Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to must-past legislation, that deal's off the table. And the president who gave, at least, lip service to supporting the Real I.D. legislation is very quiet here. Another game is being played on the American people. And it's an ugly game, frankly.
FOLEY: Well, it's a dangerous game, because the 9/11 Commission recommended this among many other reforms to clean up the problem with terrorism. We're not just talking about farm workers, not talking about restaurant employees. We're talking about potential terrorists. We got to get this right. And it's about removing people, including those farm workers or restaurant workers who came here illegally. We've got to look at their backgrounds. If they have broken the laws that should be the immediate invitation to deportation.
DOBBS: And the fact is, that ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, they can't even find 400 -- they can't even begin to find the 400,000 so-called criminal illegal aliens -- as if being an illegal alien weren't criminal itself -- but those who've committed serious crimes in this country once they cross the border illegally. They can't even find them.
FOLEY: Do you realize what it says to people thinking about coming here?
DOBBS: The door is wide open.
FOLEY: Just get across the line. They'll never find you. If they find you, they'll give you a hearing date. You don't have to show up for it. There's no penalty. You'll get employed. Somebody will hire you. They won't care about birth status. They won't care about Social Security numbers. They won't care about I.D.s.
DOBBS: What's it going to take to wake up the Congress and working men and women in this country who are the ones that are paying the price?
People say these illegal immigrants are providing a great service to the country. In point of fact, they are working hard. But the service they're providing is to those illegal employers and the taxpayer as always is carrying the burden.
FOLEY: That's why I think we have to get tough on every sector -- employers -- tough standards. Penalties not a slap on the wrist, financial penalties, including possibly requiring them to have insurance. When these people are hurt on the job, roofers, tree surgeons, you name it, who are illegal, they end up in our hospitals. You and I pay the bill, not the employer who hired them illegally, but you and I the taxpayer. That's wrong.
These are the things that may finally wake up Congress to the fact that this is as important, protecting our borders, as anything else we do. If we have time to pass all these other bills, names post offices for dead members of Congress, we better get this right. This is national homeland security.
DOBBS: We're talking almost four years, three-and-a-half years, in point of fact, after September 11. And we're talking about things like border security is important. It's mind-boggling.
FOLEY: Well, and they try to change the subject. Again, they try to say these are jobs no one else will take. These are people helping us...
DOBBS: They keep (ph) using the expression, willing workers and willing employers.
FOLEY: Well, you know what, I'm sure there are a lot of willing people on both ends -- that they can take advantage of an illegal employee and not pay taxes, and not pay bills, not pay insurance. But that's why the system has to stop. It's flawed. And when the neighbors of mine hear that over a billion dollars has gone to paying illegal immigrants healthcare, when Vietnam veterans aren't treated -- and I use that example because it crystallizes for people the urgency of this problem. If we're telling veterans to go without, who served this country honorably and ably and are now injured. And we're finding hundreds of millions, billions of dollars to pay for the bills for somebody who snuck in here, broke the law. You're talking about a crescendo of criticism that will rain on Congress, finally. And maybe we'll have the spine and the backbone to get the job done.
DOBBS: Congressman Foley, good to have you with us.
FOLEY: Thanks, Lou.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And our "Quote of the Day" tonight comes from a Congressional hearing on consumer safety. The chairman of the Consumer Product Safety Commission said, and I quote -- "Now, I could talk more about Customs, but we can only do so much. I mean, this committee knows the amount of actual product that is actually checked when it comes in the country."
Well, while Congress may know, it is a classified number. But we thought you should have an at least an estimate, and it is estimated that less than 5 percent of all products that come into this country are actually checked. But that's classified. It's obvious why the government would want to keep that number as secret as possible.
My next guest says there's a quiet crisis in our nation's school system. She says we are not preparing our children for the future, and our country's national security is at stake. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says our nation's youth faces what she calls a quiet crisis. Shirley Ann Jackson says not enough young Americans are learning science, engineering and technology, and she says that will have, of course, a profound impact not only on our economy, but our national security. Shirley Ann Jackson is president of the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, chairwoman of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, joining us tonight from Albany, New York. Good to have you with us.
SHIRLEY ANN JACKSON, PRESIDENT, RPI: Thank you. It's good to be here.
DOBBS: Let me ask you straight out -- why are in your judgment our schools failing so many of our young people, in particularly mathematics and natural sciences?
JACKSON: Well, I think we have to provide a context. The context has to do with our continuing capacity for innovation. And there really are three factors that come together. The first is the aging of the current science and engineering work force. The second is the fact that fewer of our young Americans are studying science and engineering. And the third is the decreasing flow of talent from abroad. Now, when we put that...
DOBBS: Sure, go ahead.
JACKSON: If we put those together, then the three together provide and lead to a quiet crisis, which if we don't address it, will lead to a day of reckoning that can threaten our national and economic security.
DOBBS: Dr. Jackson, I couldn't agree with you more. But let me be parochial and worry about young people who are the absolute bedrock of our future. Why in the world can we not move and motivate and incentivize our young people to study mathematics and natural sciences in this country?
JACKSON: Well, Lou, first, we have to value science and engineering and value those who would study science and math on the pathway to careers in science and engineering. And this requires on our part a national focus, a national discussion, a national will and national leadership to attract more of our young people into science and engineering.
DOBBS: I can't think, Dr. Jackson, of a national leader right now of a national stature that is saying, let's motivate our young people. When you and I were in school, we had, if you will, the competition from the Cold War. The importance galvanized I think many of our leaders to talk about the importance of engineering, of mathematics, of natural sciences. That's absent today. Where are we going to find that kind of leadership, when our public schools are failing half of our minorities? They are -- our basic scores are dropping for the broad population of our student body. What are we to do here?
JACKSON: Well, you know, Lou, during that period that you refer to, what elevated our teaching in science and math was driven by what focused the nation at that point. And we had as a focus then the space race, which was in reality a science race. DOBBS: Absolutely.
JACKSON: And that caused us to decide as a nation that we needed to improve the teaching of science and math, and we needed to encourage more youngsters, in fact, to study those subjects.
We need a focal point today. That focal point, I believe, is energy security. Why? Because we cannot drill our way to energy security alone. We have to innovate our way to energy security. And so...
DOBBS: Now, we...
JACKSON: ... for us, energy security is the space race for this millennium.
DOBBS: I think you are right. I think that's a terrific idea, and I hope you will come back soon, Dr. Shirley Ann Jackson, to talk about that more.
JACKSON: Thank you. I hope I will.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
Still ahead -- another example of outsourcing from what should be an unlikely source, at least. And the results of our poll tonight. A preview of what's coming up tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: And finally tonight, another example of outsourcing from none other than the U.S. government. A viewer from Sebastian, Florida, James Herrington (ph), sent us this bear. It is an official product of the U.S. Postal Service. That's right, U.S. Postal Service. One would think that official products from any government office would be made in the USA. But this one, unfortunately, was made in China.
We want to encourage you, whenever you find something this out of sync with what is a better life for Americans, you send it along to us. We're going to donate this to a worthy young American, right after the show.
And now, we thank you for being with us. Good night for all of us here. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
COOPER: Lou, thanks very much.
END
