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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Bloody Iraq; Bush's Political Gamble; New Nuclear Threat?

Aired April 29, 2005 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, bloody Iraq: insurgents launch a new wave of deadly attacks. Three American troops and 41 Iraqis have been killed.
President Bush is not backing down in his campaign to sell his so-called Social Security reform to skeptical voters and Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Ahead on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, China's grab for critical resources that are essential to our economy.

Exporting America: one law maker on a mission to stop government subsidies for companies that export American jobs.

And "Heroes:" the remarkable story of a paratrooper who nearly lost his life in Afghanistan trying to save his comrades.

This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening.

Insurgents today launched a series of bloody attacks in Iraq. Three American troops and 41 Iraqis were killed. Those attacks come one day after the Iraqis announced the formation of a new government. One American commander declared these attacks a desperate attempt to try to derail the emerging government.

Ryan Chilcote reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a dizzying display of suicide attacks on Iraq's security forces. Dozens were killed and nearly 100 wounded, many of them civilian bystanders.

Despite appearances, the U.S. military says insurgent violence is actually down overall. Attacks the U.S. military, insist, a sign of an increasingly desperate insurgency.

MAJ. GEN. WILLIAM WEBSTER, COMMANDER, 3RD INFANTRY DIVISION: Some of these attacks appear to be very spectacular and well coordinated, but in fact they're not. These attacks today, although they occurred over a span of about four hours, were widely separated and -- and not coordinated very well at all. CHILCOTE: Iraq's Special Forces say they are not intimidated by the attacks. For security reasons, we could not show this recruit's face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is our country. We will not be intimidated. We will fight till the last man.

CHILCOTE: And the U.S. military says recruitment for Iraq's elite troops in the face of the toughest missions remain steady.

(on camera): Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Turning now to a critical domestic issue, the future of Social Security. President Bush today launched a new appeal to a skeptical Congress and public to support his plan for reform of Social Security. One day after his primetime news conference, President Bush warned his Democratic critics not to play politics as usual.

White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's been trying to convince Washington Social Security's no longer the third rail of politics. You touch it, you die. In his retooled sales pitch, he's now grabbing that third rail with both hands, for the first time embracing benefit cuts to address the system's spending problem.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have a duty to put ideas on the table. I'm putting them on the table.

BASH: The plan, known as progressive indexing, would peg higher income workers to inflation, effectively cutting their benefits. But low income workers' benefits would be based on their wages, as they are now, so they would be protected.

BUSH: If Congress were to enact that, that that would go a long way toward making the system solvent for a younger generation of Americans.

BASH: Embracing benefit cuts is a huge political risk, but Mr. Bush believes a necessary one as he tries to advance a debate he has staked so much on. Fifty-two percent disapproved of the president's plan in February. Now 60 percent of Americans dislike his proposal. That, despite months of travel, in 20-plus states, mostly focusing on his controversial plan to offer younger workers private investment accounts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing?

BUSH: Pretty cool, yes. So-so, you know?

BASH: Mr. Bush isn't backing off personal accounts, but acknowledges they don't deal with the long-term solvency issues. Some conservatives worry talk of trimming benefits would only add to Mr. Bush's political worries, and Democrats quickly called it an attack on the middle class. But the president and his allies say shaking up the debate, while risky, is a way to force Democrats to come up with their own plan.

KEN DUBERSTEIN, FMR. W.H. CHIEF OF STAFF: Democrats can't just say no. I mean, the old Nancy Reagan, just say no, you can't do it. Put something on the table. Where are your suggestions?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The White House doesn't like the term "benefit cuts," saying that benefits will fall even more if Social Security goes into the red. And as Congress is now moving on legislation, Bush aides say it was finally time for the president to give some specifics on how to solve the problem since he's spent months trying to convince Americans, Lou, that there is one.

DOBBS: And Dana, the White House, any early indications as to the reaction of the president's performance in that news conference?

BASH: Well, as you can imagine, the president's aides think that he did quite well. You know, they essentially said that this was a very important time for him to do this, because one senior administration official said there was a lot of "noise" coming out of Washington. That might be perhaps some way of saying he wasn't getting his message across.

So doing it in primetime without us, perhaps, the filter, is something that they thought they needed. But reaction to Social Security, as you can imagine, is quite mixed depending on who you ask.

DOBBS: Dana, I am simply astonished that there would be noise emanating from Washington, D.C.

BASH: Unreal.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash from the White House.

House Republicans today strongly supported the president's campaign to push forward with his Social Security reform proposals. The House leadership, in fact, declared it would draft Social Security legislation by this June.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. WILLIAM THOMAS (R), CHAIRMAN, WAYS AND MEANS: I applaud the president. He delivered phase one. It's now our responsibility to follow through legislatively. And we will do it in as short a time as possible so that we can get this done this year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: For their part, Democratic lawmakers declared that middle class retirees would suffer deep cuts in their Social Security benefits under the president's proposals. The Democrats said the plan would also add $5 trillion in debt.

The Pentagon today struggled to clarify an alarming statement in Congress about North Korea's escalating nuclear threat. The head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Admiral Lowell Jacoby, yesterday testified that North Korea can miniaturize nuclear warheads and has the ability to put those warhead warheads on missiles. The Pentagon insists Admiral Jacoby was only talking about North Korea's theoretical capability.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The satellite pictures are examined, the experts testify. But no one has a clear idea just what North Korea has or how volatile the reclusive Kim Jong- il is when it comes to using nuclear weapons.

BUSH: There is concern about his capacity to deliver a nuclear weapon. We don't know if he can or not, but I think it's best when you're dealing with a tyrant like Kim Jong-il to assume he can.

PILGRIM: A worry arose when a senior Defense official testified Thursday that North Korea might have a nuclear weapon capable of hitting the United States. The Pentagon spent much of today clarifying that assessment.

LARRY DI RITA, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: He was speaking about a theoretical capability to combine missile types and a warhead, such that you could have a theoretical ability to reach the United States.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: And the real issue here is that we're uncertain about North Korea's capability. Now, we have all sorts of guesses, and we're trying to read the tea leaves, but North Korea is a black box.

It's the most closed country on the planet today. We're not even sure whether they have zero nuclear weapons, two nuclear weapons, or eight nuclear weapons. There are all sorts of guesses.

PILGRIM: Recent satellite photos of North Korea's main nuclear complex show no steam coming from the tower, raising speculation North Korea could have shut down the plant to harvest fuel to make more nuclear weapons, and already has a delivery vehicle for a bomb.

GARY MILHOLLIN, WISCONSIN PROJECT ON NUCLEAR ARMS CONTROL: After all, North Korea has an air force. It's capable of flying a nuclear weapon probably to Japan and delivering it, certainly to South Korea and delivering it. So even if North Korea doesn't have the ability to put it on a missile, I think you still have to assume that North Korea has the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: Now, the discussion today centered on whether North Korea had the capability to make a nuclear device small enough to fit on a missile. The answer, after much attempt to define the word "capability," is when you are dealing with a country like North Korea, you must assume the worst -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, assume the worst. Admiral Jacoby, though, in all fairness and accuracy, he was not equivocating. He said North Korea has the capability to mount nuclear warheads on missiles, missiles that may well have the capacity to reach the United States.

PILGRIM: Upon examination today, many experts say that they may not be able to miniaturize a nuclear device at this moment, but here's no telling whether they can or cannot. It's not certain.

DOBBS: And to put this in proper context, Admiral Jacoby, his job?

PILGRIM: Well, he's the head of Defense Intelligence Agency.

DOBBS: One would think that that would speak for itself.

PILGRIM: Yes.

DOBBS: But out in Washington, D.C., these days -- Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

The Army has deployed hundreds of new Stryker armored vehicles to Iraq, but critics say the Stryker does not have sufficient armor to protect our troops from insurgent attacks. The Pentagon has become so concerned about that criticism, it's launched a campaign to defend the Stryker here at home.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The system protects the soldiers.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This video is part of the Army's latest defensive, a P.R. blitz aimed at countering critics of its new Stryker armored vehicle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Stryker is an excellent vehicle. I can't imagine being out here with anything less.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Stryker saves lives. For everybody out there who says it's -- that it doesn't have survivability, they don't know what the hell they're talking about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I tell you, the weapons systems on that vehicle, holy (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Those things are incredible.

MCINTYRE: Criticism of the Stryker was fueled by an internal Army "Lessons Learned" review first reported by CNN last month which detailed dozens of deficiencies with the fighting vehicle, everything from the vulnerability of add-on armor, to lack of air conditioning for high-tech electronics. Critics dismissed the video testimonials as propaganda and a waste of tax dollars.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, of course when the Army puts a camera in front of a serviceman and says, "Say how great the Stryker is," what do you think the guy is going to say? If there are problems and there is money to mount a campaign, why don't we spend the money -- rather than mounting the campaign -- on fixing the problems?

MCINTYRE: The Army insists problems with the Stryker were all minor and being fixed. And it argues the Stryker is at the heart of its plan to convert to a lighter, more nimble force.

But the critics, including some retired Army officers, argue that experience in Iraq has shown that more heavily armored tracked vehicles, like the old M113 Gavin, are better and in ready supply in storage. At least one soldier who served in both says, while the M113 might be better than a lightly armored Humvee, it still doesn't compare to a Stryker.

LT. COL. KARL REED, U.S. ARMY: It's absolutely no way a better option than the Stryker. That's 20-years-ago technology.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Project on Government Oversight has set up a blog site. And they're soliciting e-mails from soldiers who have served in the Stryker to see if they sing the praises of the vehicle as loudly in private when they have confidentiality as they do in the Army's public relation's video -- Lou.

DOBBS: And to whom is that Army public relation's video directed? And who is presenting it?

MCINTYRE: Well, one copy of it was hand-delivered to the watch- dog group that was one of the critics. The Army's quite defensive about this. They feel they are getting a bad rap on the Stryker.

They say that these statements from the soldiers who served in them are genuine and reflect the fact that the vehicle is doing a good job. But some of the critics aren't convinced.

And as I said, they're hoping to get some candid responses from some soldiers to see if they really believe what they're saying on those videotapes.

DOBBS: You know, Jamie, as we often end up here when we look at these issues, it just -- it's utterly remarkable that the United States, Department of Defense, cannot put forward clear, critical, empirical assessment, quantitatively, making a judgment as to whether or not a piece of equipment, a weapons system -- and in this case the Stryker -- is effective or not.

Why is that the case?

MCINTYRE: Well, I have to say that in this Army "Lessons Learned" report, which we obtained a copy of earlier and reported on earlier, it did give the Stryker an overall good performance. It had a list of things that needed to be improved. And you could either look at that as refinements, that we're making a good weapon better, or you can look at it as deficiencies.

And I think the ultimate test has to really come from the people who use them in combat. The one thing we can say, for instance, that 15 soldiers have died in attacks on Strykers. But it's hard to draw a conclusion from that, because some of them were simply accidents where the Stryker rolled over when a bridge collapsed. Others, and other soldiers have died even in very heavily armed -- armored M1A1 tanks.

So without examining each incident, it's hard to tell if the Stryker was at fault there or there were other circumstances.

DOBBS: Perhaps Secretary Donald Rumsfeld would open up the issue to CNN, and specifically to our senior Pentagon correspondent to make that assessment. We should -- maybe if you don't mind, we'll right now extend that request for an invitation to do so.

MCINTYRE: I'll certainly pass that along.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. As always, Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Up next, "Exporting America:" one lawmaker's campaign to strip government subsidies from companies that export American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.

And "China Syndrome:" how it's competing with the United States to secure some of the world's most critically important resources.

Those stories are next here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: There is outrage tonight in New York State over lucrative tax breaks and training grants for companies that are shipping American jobs overseas to cheap labor markets. Now one lawmaker has made it his mission to destroy those subsidies.

Christine Romans has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Richard Brodsky doesn't want New Yorkers to pay for exporting New York jobs overseas. He's leading a charge in the state assembly to outlaw training grants and tax breaks for companies who make their money by helping other New York companies outsource.

RICHARD BRODSKY (D), NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY: It's one thing to create 20 jobs. It's another thing if those 20 jobs are used to export 2,000 jobs. That's what's happened. Global Sutherland is the best example. ROMANS: That's an upstate outsourcer that reaped more than $900,000 in training grants and tax breaks for creating 683 jobs in the state. Six hundred eight-three jobs here, but its Web site doesn't mention those. Instead, it boasts of the 7,000 jobs and counting created in India.

The chairman of Empire State Development says taxpayer money for outsourcers like Sutherland is appropriate.

CHARLES GARGANO, CHAIRMAN, EMPIRE STATE DEVELOPMENT: We do not support outsourcing. Of course we don't. But we cannot determine, and we cannot dictate to a company or a corporation on how they should run their business.

ROMANS: But Brodsky and his coalition don't want to dictate how a company does business. They just don't want New York taxpayers to pay for outsourcing. And Brodsky goes further, putting companies like Xerox and IBM on notice.

BRODSKY: Once you get the benefit, if you do end up outsourcing those jobs, you've got to give us the money back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think that we can sit back and be smug and say, look, you come here and create 1,000 jobs. But if you take two out, we're going to penalize you and we want all the incentives back. I mean, that's nonsense.

ROMANS: Nonsense, he says, and isolationist.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Sutherland Global did not return calls and an e-mail for comment. Overall, it has now added about 1,700 jobs in New York as it sets up shop to ship other jobs overseas -- Lou.

DOBBS: New York State wants to give tax breaks to a company whose job it is to outsource American jobs. Have any of these people been to Buffalo, to Rochester, to Syracuse? I mean this is just mind- boggling.

ROMANS: They say their only mission is to reward companies that are creating jobs here. If a company creates 600, 1,600 jobs here, it can get these tax breaks and training grants.

DOBBS: And destroy...

ROMANS: It doesn't matter if down the road it is setting up shop here to ship thousands more jobs overseas.

DOBBS: That's a remarkable story. And thank goodness some people are waking up. Appreciate it. Christine Romans. And get to feeling better.

ROMANS: Thank you.

DOBBS: The shipment of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is due in part to the so-called free trade agreements that the United States is rushing to sign with other countries. Tonight, the United States has a new competitor in that race, China.

China is increasing its trade all across South America, buying up some of the world's most valuable resources in the process. Lucia Newman reports from Santiago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Chinese negotiating team arrives in Chile, bearing smiles and brief cases to negotiate a free trade agreement with the world's number one producer of copper. From Havana to Tierra del Fuego, China is slipping through America's back door, signing deals to gobble up Venezuela's oil, Brazil's grains and iron, Cuba's nickel, and Chile's copper needed for Beijing's seemingly unstoppable economic expansion

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is a strategic decision with great foresight.

NEWMAN: Trade between Chile and China has more than doubled in the last year -- the price of Chilean copper skyrocketing thanks to China's insatiable appetite. So only a year after becoming the first South American country to sign a free trade deal with United States, Chile is now looking to do the same with China.

CARLOS FURCHE, CHILEAN DIRECTOR, GENERAL ECONOMIC AFFAIRS: Our only option to be a more developed country is to participate in the globalization process.

NEWMAN: But at what price? Many warn Latin America may be just swapping one commodity-hungry superpower, the United States, for another.

MICHAEL GRASTY, U.S.-CHILE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Once we get absorbed by this Chinese vacuum that will absorb anything we have to produce, we need to be careful. We need to go into the direction that we have identified, not into the direction that we are sucked into.

NEWMAN: China's only interested in importing commodities, which limits the region's development.

(on camera): At the rate it's going, in five years China could replace the United States as the region's number one trading partner, an economic conquest of the Americas that's setting off alarm bells in Washington, which until now seems to have taken its southern neighbors for granted.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Santiago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And coming up next here, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger speaks out about border security just a week after he retracted his call to close our borders. We'll have a special report next. And then, a community college in one state says it's going to start giving illegal aliens diplomas. The president of that school is our guest here tonight.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of California is once again blasting the federal government for its failure to protect our nation's borders. Governor Schwarzenegger has, of course, the largest illegal population in the country in his state. And he is praising the border volunteer group that President Bush once called vigilantes.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Barely a week after criticizing the federal government's inability to secure the border with Mexico, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger again entered the growing national debate over immigration policy. He called into a popular Los Angeles talk radio program and praised Arizona's Minuteman Project, which is set to expand into California this fall.

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I think they've done a terrific job, and they've -- look, they've cut down the crossing of illegal immigrants by a huge percentage. So it just shows that it works. It is a shame that the private citizen has to go in there and start patrolling our borders.

WIAN: Those comments drew immediate criticism from the governor's political opponents. Senator Dianne Feinstein said in a statement, "I am surprised that the governor, rather than the call the president of his party and urge additional Border Patrol agents, has just made a statement praising efforts by untrained volunteers to patrol the borders."

Others even accuse the governor of immigrant bashing and racism. After a news conference today introducing a new state education secretary, we asked the governor if his endorsement of the Minutemen means he'll join them on the border when they arrive in California.

SCHWARZENEGGER: Well, I have no plan. I think the most important thing is to know that I'm a champion for immigrants, and I promote immigration. I'm an immigrant myself. And I think it is extremely important that we do it in the legal way.

WIAN: While clearly trying to answer his critics, he also again defended the Minutemen.

SCHWARZENEGGER: And when the government in a state or the country doesn't do its job, then the private citizens go out. It is like a neighborhood patrol. It's like they didn't step in and they tried to help. WIAN: During his radio appearance, Schwarzenegger blasted the southern California Spanish-language TV station that has put up billboards the words "Los Angeles, California" changed to "Los Angeles, Mexico." He said they promote illegal immigration and should be taken down immediately.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: An executive with the TV station's parent company says the billboard campaign is being reviewed after Schwarzenegger's comments. Anti-illegal alien activists plan a protest at the station this weekend -- Lou.

DOBBS: I'm sorry, the illegal alien -- say that again.

WIAN: Anti-illegal alien activists are planning a protest this weekend at that -- at that station.

DOBBS: It's getting complicated.

WIAN: It sure is.

DOBBS: You have to give Governor Schwarzenegger -- now you were with him today -- but you have to give him great credit. He's not backing off because he got the obligatory charge of being anti- immigrant and being even racist by some of the more exuberant folks who don't have a response to the facts. How did he stand up to all of that?

WIAN: He stood up to it pretty well. He clearly tried to soften a little bit of the tone from his radio station interview, which was to a different audience.

He went out of his way to say he supported immigrants, but he supported only legal immigrants. But he refused to back down from his comments. Again, called the Minuteman Project, likened it to a Neighborhood Watch program, refused to engage in any of this vigilante talk that many of the questioners asked him about -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, you have covered those volunteers down on the border with Mexico and the state of Arizona. Does your assessment from your coverage, your reporting, match that of Governor Schwarzenegger's?

WIAN: Absolutely. I know you were down there with me, Lou. And we didn't see any folks that I would characterize as vigilantes.

We saw people who were watching and reporting to the Border Patrol. And, you know, there haven't been any violent incidents, as so many people feared. And I think it bears out.

DOBBS: And as the governor pointed out, Casey, they actually were effective in what they set out to do, something that the government is not doing. And that is a time-honored tradition in this country. A lot of Americans have forgotten it, and it's very uncomfortable for Americans. But when the government does fail to take action on issues that are important to the community, to the state and to the nation, it's our responsibility as citizens to do so. And my hat certainly is off to those Minuteman volunteers who are going to expand their operations.

Casey Wian, as always, thank you sir.

WIAN: Sure.

DOBBS: Our quote of the day comes from White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan. He was asked about the president indirectly, his reference to the Minutemen -- the president's reference as "vigilantes." He was asked today about the Minutemen again and their effort to patrol the U.S. border. As you may recall, the president did at one point refer to them as "vigilantes," as did Mexican President Vicente Fox.

Now McClellan today had this to say. It's our "Quote of the Day."

"The President's initial concern was that people who are armed might be taking matters into their own hands, instead of letting the appropriate authorities deal with these matters. The president believes very strongly that people ought to report suspicious activity to the proper authorities and let the proper authorities address it."

Well, with all due respect to Mr. McClellan, the Minutemen said all along that they would not take matters into their own hands. They promised there would be no violence and entirely appropriate conduct. And they did allow the proper authorities to deal with suspicious activity. The result was the arrest of a number of illegal aliens, and in point of fact, it's sort of interesting to see that the president has yet to commend these activist citizens. Perhaps that will be next week.

Coming up next here, another illegal alien giveaway. I'll be talking with the community college president who says he's concerned about the lack of opportunity for illegal aliens in this country. We'll tell you what his school is doing to better accommodate those illegal aliens.

And the Real I.D. Act is moving a step closer to reality. I'll be joined by chairman of the Immigration and Border Security Subcommittee in the U.S. Senate, Senator John Cornyn.

And in our "Heroes" tonight, our weekly tribute to our men and women in uniform. The inspirational story of a paratrooper wounded in Afghanistan, now recovered from his wounds. He's back in the military in memory of his fallen comrades. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, there is some outrage in the community in North Carolina after the community college said it will begin handing out degrees to illegal aliens. Forsyth Technical, in Winston-Salem, already allows illegal aliens to attend classes. My guest tonight is the president of the school, Gary Green, joining us from Winston- Salem, North Carolina.

Good to have you with us.

GARY GREEN, PRESIDENT OF FORSYTH TECHNICAL: It's a pleasure to be here.

DOBBS: The reaction from the community has not been entirely favorable, but let me ask first, why is it necessary for you to, first of all, provide education from a public supported institution to illegal aliens, and at the same time provide them degrees? Why the change in policy?

GREEN: Well, we're providing opportunities for young people who are coming through our K-12 system here in Winston-Salem. We have individuals, young people, who have come here -- often came here as young children. Who have grown up in our community, live in our community and are going to be staying in our community. They're graduating from our high schools and have no opportunity for educational advancement beyond that.

DOBBS: So, it's a requirement that they have been in your school system, your K through 12. From K, or from 11 through 12, what's the break-off point?

GREEN: Through high school. They have to have graduated from a North Carolina high school.

DOBBS: Right, but how long must have they been in your educational system?

GREEN: There's no limit on the amount of time that they've been in the system.

DOBBS: Oh.

GREEN: But they have had to have graduated. Let me add, also, that in addition to that, they will be paying out-of-state tuition, which really actually covers the full cost of their education. It's not supplemented by the state. And of course, they're ineligible for federal and state financial aid as well.

DOBBS: This is -- one is -- we all know, one of the most difficult, frustrating issues in this entire matter of our immigration law mess in this country. But the fact is, you're giving them a degree, you're training them in a vocation.

What do you expect to happen after that?

GREEN: Well, obviously there are concerns about individuals' ability to work without documentation. And the educational institutions certainly are not responsible for our work immigration policy. But believe -- we believe that the inability...

DOBBS: Wait, wait, wait. Mr. Green, let me ask you something. GREEN: Sure.

DOBBS: Just what do you think are you responsible for? Are you simply there to run a factory blind to the laws of the United States?

GREEN: Absolutely not.

DOBBS: Then help me out?

GREEN: No. No. Let me answer that. I want to make sure it's very clear that we are operating within this policy; within all the laws of the United States; within the laws of the state of North Carolina, and we'll continue to do so.

DOBBS: Within the laws -- let me ask you this, if -- do you expect them to be hired?

GREEN: Well, I think that they will have training that will make them eligible to be hired. We certainly encourage them to try to pursue status, a legal status as it becomes available, as they become eligible. So, basically challenge...

DOBBS: So, you're putting the community college in the position of really -- making the U.S. immigration laws subservient to the school. At the same time, you really don't have any control whatsoever on how often, how long the students have been in your public school system. You have no control over whether or not they want to stay in the United States or whether they will return to their country of origin.

Do you have any way to do any of that? Is there a commitment here for citizenship?

GREEN: We're talking about young people who have come here as children. Who may have been brought here, would have been brought here.

(CROSSTALK)

GREEN: I understand, but these are not individuals who have committed a crime. They're individuals that have grown up in our community and in our community.

DOBBS: I understand, but my question is very specific.

GREEN: Uh-huh.

DOBBS: Any control over how long they've been in your public school system?

GREEN: No.

DOBBS: Any commitment on the part or requirement for a commitment on the part of those students to gain citizenship or to remain in this country or not to leave the country? Because your institution's being paid for by taxpayer money. GREEN: That's true, but as I noted earlier...

DOBBS: Well, there is no but there, sir. I mean, your institution is being paid for by the public.

GREEN: That's true. But these students are paying their own way through tuition. The amount that they will pay to attend our institution covers the cost of educating them.

DOBBS: And we appreciate you being here to explain the position and look forward to talking to you again on this important issue. Gary Green...

GREEN: It's a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you.

DOBBS: ... good to have you here.

"Tonight's Poll" question is on the president's prime-time news conference last night. How did President Bush's news conference last night affect your opinion of his Social Security reforms, positively, negatively or no change at all?

Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Now, "Heroes," our weekly salute to the men and women who serve this country. Tonight, the remarkable story of Sergeant First Class John Setzer.

Sergeant Setzer was wounded two years ago this week during his tour in Afghanistan. The sergeant has now recovered from his wounds. He continues to serve the nation.

Bill Tucker reports.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's 06:00 at Fort Brag. For Sergeant First Class John Setzer's paratroopers today, it's a six mile march carrying 65 pounds of gear. In early 2003, the sergeant was in Afghanistan with a platoon he had just trained, securing an area known to be occupied by insurgents.

SERGEANT FIRST CLASS JOHN SETZER, U.S. ARMY: The platoon (ph) commander wanted to move ahead and look at an old staging area.

TUCKER: Insurgents attacked the first group and radio contact was lost. Sergeant Setzer moved his group of 10 soldiers forward.

SETZER: Once we got to the top of the hill, we heard leaders yelling to one another for the soldiers to engage and get down. You could smell the blood from the wounded.

TUCKER: The sergeant took shrapnel in the neck. Disregarding his own injury, he evacuated a wounded airman to safer ground who would later die. He returned to evacuate more men, but was attacked again.

SETZER: The machine gun opened up by 25 meters away, about, what 30, 40 feet. And two rounds hit the T and Z, and one round hit the E. Cut through the body armor, hit the tip of the plate and it bounced up right in here and broke my jaw, shattered my teeth, and went -- and just on the right-hand side, I have shrapnel all up in my face. And they pulled the pieces that were in my eye out. My young PFC was wounded, covered me out that -- out of the vehicle.

TUCKER: The sergeant and Private Dennis were airlifted to Bagram Air Force Base. Sergeant Setzer was in surgery for four-and-a-half hours. When he came to, his first question was about Private Dennis.

SETZER: That's all that matters. It didn't matter about anything else, you know? You have a young, 18-, 19-year-old man. He's got a lot to live for. They told me that they did everything they could for Dennis, but he lost too much blood and he didn't make it.

TUCKER: Sergeant Setzer was awarded the Purple Heart, the Bronze and the Silver Star.

SETZER: I would give up all those awards if I could have those two young men back.

TUCKER: The sergeant is now recovered and is able to return to combat. He has no intention of leaving the military.

SETZER: As long as I breathe and as long as, you know, I can still do it, I love to train. I love to lead.

TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And Sergeant Setzer will continue to lead. This summer, he will spend two months at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, teaching leadership schools (sic) to our nation's future Army officers.

Coming up next, new hope for the Real ID Act, which recently seemed all but dead in Congress. The chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security is our guest.

And then, a critical week for President Bush and his campaign to reform Social Security. Three of the country's very best political journalists join me next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Real ID Act appears to be on its way to becoming law. The measure would reform asylum laws and not allow illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses. Senator John Cornyn and I talked earlier. I asked him if he's confident that that legislation would be attached to the supplemental spending bill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: I am. I'm confident it will be. The one concern I have, Lou, is as important as this is, the Real ID Act, what I want to hope people understand is it doesn't mean we're through with the work we need to do to secure our borders further, as well as deal with interior enforcement and the other issues that go along with comprehensive immigration reform.

DOBBS: And you have been holding hearings on the issue of technology, border security, and how effective that technology is, and certainly as it relates to how effective our border security is. What are your early indications?

CORNYN: Well, it's a work in progress. After 9/11, of course, people became a lot more focused on the issue of border security. The problem is, we don't have enough Border Patrol agents. We don't have enough equipment. Don't have enough aircraft. And we do have new technology, sensors, UAVs and other things that are helping, but we are certainly not where we need to be yet. And we need to continue to reinforce our commitment in terms of financial resources, so we have the people and the equipment necessary to get the job done. But we're not anywhere near close.

DOBBS: There is a rising clamor, and certainly our audience is representative of those raising their voices for that border security in particular. Three-and-a-half years after September 11th, Governor Schwarzenegger in California adding his voice to those congratulating the Minutemen, the volunteer project in Arizona that's expanding. What are your thoughts about the role of volunteers, citizen participation in border security, if the government does not act?

CORNYN: Well, I like the way you phrase the question. The only reason why the Minutemen and citizens have felt it necessary to take this matter into their own hands has been because government has not. And that's a failure of the government. And preferably, I would like to see the government step up to its responsibilities.

I think the Minutemen have certainly drawn a lot of visibility, both here in Washington and there along the border, to this issue in a way that has helped motivate congressmen, elected representatives, to actually do something about border security. So I think the net has been positive. But I would prefer to see the government step up and live up to its responsibilities, and not have ordinary citizens feel like they have to do it themselves.

DOBBS: Senator, in the issue of border security and immigration. Immigration reform itself remains amongst the most emotional and most hotly-contested issues in Washington, D.C. and perhaps around the country. Is it your sense that border security must be a condition precedent to any immigration reform that emerges?

CORNYN: I agree -- I agree it must be for our security. We know that, though, once we just deal with the border security, that that does not deal with what happens in the interior of the country. Senator Jon Kyl and I -- of course he's from Arizona, I'm from Texas -- we both understand, I think, because of who we represent and the states we represent what the seriousness of this issue.

But we need to deal with border security. We need to deal with what happens on the interior of the country in terms of law enforcement. We also need to make sure that employers have the means to determine the legal status of their perspective employees and hold them accountable, too, I think, as part of a comprehensive solution to this problem.

DOBBS: Senator Cornyn, we thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate it.

CORNYN: Thanks, Lou. Good to be back.

DOBBS: And our poll question tonight. How did President Bush's news conference last night affect your opinion of his so-called Social Security reforms? Positively, negatively, no change? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. Results coming right up.

And at the top of the hour here on this network, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson joins us now to tell us what's ahead -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, thanks very much. Yeah, in about 12 minutes from now, a worldwide search for a little girl who has been living a nightmare, a victim of child pornographers. Police are not getting the public's help like they hoped -- the help they need, the help this little girl needs.

Tonight, we're going to find out why and what we can do about it.

Plus, the case of the missing bride. She was supposed to be married tomorrow. Instead, today her family is appealing for help. All that ahead.

Also, "Sleepless in America." Is your snoring spouse keeping you up at night? Find out some ways to help you get some decent shut-eye. Part of our special series, "Sleepless in America." That and more at the top of the hour -- Lou.

DOBBS: Looking forward to it, Anderson. Thank you. Have a great weekend.

Still ahead, I'll be talking about this week's headlines, a busy week, with our newsmakers, three of the best political journalists in the country. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining me now are Karen Tumulty "Time" magazine, Roger Simon "U.S. News & World Report," Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times." Folks, good to have you here.

Let me begin, Karen, with you. The president gave an impressive performance last night. Did he advance the Social Security reform agenda?

KAREN TUMULTY, TIME: I'm not real sure where this will take him, because the problem with the main thing that he did which was the specificity that he added to his plan was essentially simply means testing of Social Security, adding an element of welfare essentially to what has been an entitlement program basically if for the top 70 percent of wage earners in this country, your benefits are going to go down under his proposal. I think that could be a definite no-sell. And it could make a job that was already looking next to impossible look even more so.

DOBBS: Ron, Ken Duberstein said the Democrats simply can not say no to Social Security reform. Is he right?

RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Well, the goal -- clearly the goal of the president's putting out that proposal last night was to increase pressure on Democrats to come forward with their own plan. I'm not sure that he has enough leverage yet to get them to do that.

The Democratic -- the Democrats felt very comfortable using arguments, Karen just raised them, to go after it right away as a benefit cut for the middle class, which in fact it would be in terms of the growth of future benefits. And so far, they're holding it to their position, Lou, that they will not put forward an alternative until President Bush renounces the private accounts. I don't know if he's been able to move them off that yet. We will have to wait and see.

DOBBS: Senator Harry Reid, Roger, said that to accede to the majority leaders' compromise, if you will, or insistence, would be a big wet kiss for the right. What's going to happen with the filibuster issue?

ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": This is a tough one. And I think it's tougher for the Democrats than the Republicans. It's -- some Republicans don't want to press this to the nuclear option, don't want to insist that they can change the rules with just a mere 50 votes and the vote go to the vice president.

On the other hand if they go ahead and do it, the Democrats then have the real dilemma of whether they shut down the Senate. The public in general does not want to see Congress shut down. They elect people to Congress to accomplish things. So this is really a gamble for the Democrats to take on.

BROWNSTEIN: You know, it's really a gamble for both sides, Lou. You know, we are in a -- as we talked about before -- an intensely polarized position in public attitudes. The president's numbers among independent and moderate voters have really cratered quite a bit in the second term. The Republican Congress is not looking at good numbers either in the middle. And if you precipitate this kind of partisan warfare that this nuclear option, as it's called, would undoubtedly instigate, you will face more polarization and more risk for them in the center looking forward to that 2006 election.

DOBBS: You may well be right.

Turning to another issue today, watching polarization and some back pedaling. The White House trying -- the Pentagon in particular trying to back off from Admiral Jacoby's remarks about North Korea, Karen, in which he said point blank that the North Koreans had the capacity to put a nuclear warhead on a missile. What's going on?

TUMULTY: Well, what's going on right now is the White House is still trying to essentially figure out a North Korea policy. The fact is that everything that we have heard from our intelligence does suggest that the nuclear capability is there now. And this is a country that actually does seem to have weapons of mass destruction. And the administration has yet to come up with a sort of clear and coherent policy for dealing with that.

SIMON: Our only real hope in dealing with North Korea is to get the Chinese to pressure them. And this is why we have not pressured China on so many other matters. People say why don't we insist that China follow trade agreements? Why don't we insist that they fairly value their currency? Why don't we insist that they play by the rules?

Why? Because we need China to deal with North Korea. And so far China's been not in a big hurry to do so.

DOBBS: And, Ron, the president last night in that news conference, not talking about illegal immigration which ranks amongst the highest among those surveyed of critically important issues. No discussion of free trade and huge deficits and in an economy that is, frankly, slowing down more than economists would have liked or expected. What's going on there?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, the president put a very optimistic face on conditions last night. You know, he said at one point about the economy. I'm an optimistic fellow. And I think that if the evening had been set to music that would have been the chorus. He just kept going over that theme over.

And again, the problem he has is there are concerns right now that are working -- you know, putting a downward sort of pull on his standing, particularly those high gas prices. He acknowledged that while he has an energy vision that deals with sort of long-term changes, he doesn't have enough his quiver for the short-term problem. So, I think he's left a kind of point toward, you know, more fundamental changes down the road. And yet in a situation where immediate conditions are causing him stress.

DOBBS: And I think in fairness to the president, Karen, I don't know if you'd agree, but we've had a chain of mindless policies for at least 20 years in this country, more like 25 in that we have not dealt with those are now short-term issues. You agree?

TUMULTY: Well, yes. And that's one of the points that the president made was that if there were any decision that could have averted this, it could have been made ten years ago. I don't know how satisfying Americans are going to find that answer, essentially blaming it on Bill Clinton.

DOBBS: Well, I wasn't blaming it on Bill Clinton. I was blaming it on Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter. You want to go through the list? But anyway! And ourselves of course. Principally ourselves I think probably.

TUMULTY: Although, the president said it was ten years ago they should have done it.

DOBBS: Well, forgive me for disputing the president's view. Just offering another parallel view if you will.

Thank you, all. Have a great weekend. Appreciate it.

TUMULTY: Thanks, you too.

SIMON: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll, a preview of what's ahead Monday. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight -- 70 percent of you say President Bush's news conference negatively influenced your opinion on Social Security reform, 3 percent said your opinion was positive, 28 percent no change.

Thanks for being with us tonight, throughout the week in fact. Please join us here Monday. Illegal alien giveaway: I'll be talking with an attorney representing a group of American college students who say they should have the same rights as illegal aliens in this country and they're going to court to make certain they do. "Broken Borders:" We'll be joined by one congressman who says border security must be considered a pillar in our national security policy.

Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. Have a very pleasant weekend. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" begins right now -- Anderson.

END

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Aired April 29, 2005 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, bloody Iraq: insurgents launch a new wave of deadly attacks. Three American troops and 41 Iraqis have been killed.
President Bush is not backing down in his campaign to sell his so-called Social Security reform to skeptical voters and Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Ahead on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, China's grab for critical resources that are essential to our economy.

Exporting America: one law maker on a mission to stop government subsidies for companies that export American jobs.

And "Heroes:" the remarkable story of a paratrooper who nearly lost his life in Afghanistan trying to save his comrades.

This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening.

Insurgents today launched a series of bloody attacks in Iraq. Three American troops and 41 Iraqis were killed. Those attacks come one day after the Iraqis announced the formation of a new government. One American commander declared these attacks a desperate attempt to try to derail the emerging government.

Ryan Chilcote reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a dizzying display of suicide attacks on Iraq's security forces. Dozens were killed and nearly 100 wounded, many of them civilian bystanders.

Despite appearances, the U.S. military says insurgent violence is actually down overall. Attacks the U.S. military, insist, a sign of an increasingly desperate insurgency.

MAJ. GEN. WILLIAM WEBSTER, COMMANDER, 3RD INFANTRY DIVISION: Some of these attacks appear to be very spectacular and well coordinated, but in fact they're not. These attacks today, although they occurred over a span of about four hours, were widely separated and -- and not coordinated very well at all. CHILCOTE: Iraq's Special Forces say they are not intimidated by the attacks. For security reasons, we could not show this recruit's face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is our country. We will not be intimidated. We will fight till the last man.

CHILCOTE: And the U.S. military says recruitment for Iraq's elite troops in the face of the toughest missions remain steady.

(on camera): Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Turning now to a critical domestic issue, the future of Social Security. President Bush today launched a new appeal to a skeptical Congress and public to support his plan for reform of Social Security. One day after his primetime news conference, President Bush warned his Democratic critics not to play politics as usual.

White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's been trying to convince Washington Social Security's no longer the third rail of politics. You touch it, you die. In his retooled sales pitch, he's now grabbing that third rail with both hands, for the first time embracing benefit cuts to address the system's spending problem.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have a duty to put ideas on the table. I'm putting them on the table.

BASH: The plan, known as progressive indexing, would peg higher income workers to inflation, effectively cutting their benefits. But low income workers' benefits would be based on their wages, as they are now, so they would be protected.

BUSH: If Congress were to enact that, that that would go a long way toward making the system solvent for a younger generation of Americans.

BASH: Embracing benefit cuts is a huge political risk, but Mr. Bush believes a necessary one as he tries to advance a debate he has staked so much on. Fifty-two percent disapproved of the president's plan in February. Now 60 percent of Americans dislike his proposal. That, despite months of travel, in 20-plus states, mostly focusing on his controversial plan to offer younger workers private investment accounts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing?

BUSH: Pretty cool, yes. So-so, you know?

BASH: Mr. Bush isn't backing off personal accounts, but acknowledges they don't deal with the long-term solvency issues. Some conservatives worry talk of trimming benefits would only add to Mr. Bush's political worries, and Democrats quickly called it an attack on the middle class. But the president and his allies say shaking up the debate, while risky, is a way to force Democrats to come up with their own plan.

KEN DUBERSTEIN, FMR. W.H. CHIEF OF STAFF: Democrats can't just say no. I mean, the old Nancy Reagan, just say no, you can't do it. Put something on the table. Where are your suggestions?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The White House doesn't like the term "benefit cuts," saying that benefits will fall even more if Social Security goes into the red. And as Congress is now moving on legislation, Bush aides say it was finally time for the president to give some specifics on how to solve the problem since he's spent months trying to convince Americans, Lou, that there is one.

DOBBS: And Dana, the White House, any early indications as to the reaction of the president's performance in that news conference?

BASH: Well, as you can imagine, the president's aides think that he did quite well. You know, they essentially said that this was a very important time for him to do this, because one senior administration official said there was a lot of "noise" coming out of Washington. That might be perhaps some way of saying he wasn't getting his message across.

So doing it in primetime without us, perhaps, the filter, is something that they thought they needed. But reaction to Social Security, as you can imagine, is quite mixed depending on who you ask.

DOBBS: Dana, I am simply astonished that there would be noise emanating from Washington, D.C.

BASH: Unreal.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash from the White House.

House Republicans today strongly supported the president's campaign to push forward with his Social Security reform proposals. The House leadership, in fact, declared it would draft Social Security legislation by this June.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. WILLIAM THOMAS (R), CHAIRMAN, WAYS AND MEANS: I applaud the president. He delivered phase one. It's now our responsibility to follow through legislatively. And we will do it in as short a time as possible so that we can get this done this year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: For their part, Democratic lawmakers declared that middle class retirees would suffer deep cuts in their Social Security benefits under the president's proposals. The Democrats said the plan would also add $5 trillion in debt.

The Pentagon today struggled to clarify an alarming statement in Congress about North Korea's escalating nuclear threat. The head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Admiral Lowell Jacoby, yesterday testified that North Korea can miniaturize nuclear warheads and has the ability to put those warhead warheads on missiles. The Pentagon insists Admiral Jacoby was only talking about North Korea's theoretical capability.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The satellite pictures are examined, the experts testify. But no one has a clear idea just what North Korea has or how volatile the reclusive Kim Jong- il is when it comes to using nuclear weapons.

BUSH: There is concern about his capacity to deliver a nuclear weapon. We don't know if he can or not, but I think it's best when you're dealing with a tyrant like Kim Jong-il to assume he can.

PILGRIM: A worry arose when a senior Defense official testified Thursday that North Korea might have a nuclear weapon capable of hitting the United States. The Pentagon spent much of today clarifying that assessment.

LARRY DI RITA, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: He was speaking about a theoretical capability to combine missile types and a warhead, such that you could have a theoretical ability to reach the United States.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: And the real issue here is that we're uncertain about North Korea's capability. Now, we have all sorts of guesses, and we're trying to read the tea leaves, but North Korea is a black box.

It's the most closed country on the planet today. We're not even sure whether they have zero nuclear weapons, two nuclear weapons, or eight nuclear weapons. There are all sorts of guesses.

PILGRIM: Recent satellite photos of North Korea's main nuclear complex show no steam coming from the tower, raising speculation North Korea could have shut down the plant to harvest fuel to make more nuclear weapons, and already has a delivery vehicle for a bomb.

GARY MILHOLLIN, WISCONSIN PROJECT ON NUCLEAR ARMS CONTROL: After all, North Korea has an air force. It's capable of flying a nuclear weapon probably to Japan and delivering it, certainly to South Korea and delivering it. So even if North Korea doesn't have the ability to put it on a missile, I think you still have to assume that North Korea has the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: Now, the discussion today centered on whether North Korea had the capability to make a nuclear device small enough to fit on a missile. The answer, after much attempt to define the word "capability," is when you are dealing with a country like North Korea, you must assume the worst -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, assume the worst. Admiral Jacoby, though, in all fairness and accuracy, he was not equivocating. He said North Korea has the capability to mount nuclear warheads on missiles, missiles that may well have the capacity to reach the United States.

PILGRIM: Upon examination today, many experts say that they may not be able to miniaturize a nuclear device at this moment, but here's no telling whether they can or cannot. It's not certain.

DOBBS: And to put this in proper context, Admiral Jacoby, his job?

PILGRIM: Well, he's the head of Defense Intelligence Agency.

DOBBS: One would think that that would speak for itself.

PILGRIM: Yes.

DOBBS: But out in Washington, D.C., these days -- Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

The Army has deployed hundreds of new Stryker armored vehicles to Iraq, but critics say the Stryker does not have sufficient armor to protect our troops from insurgent attacks. The Pentagon has become so concerned about that criticism, it's launched a campaign to defend the Stryker here at home.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The system protects the soldiers.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This video is part of the Army's latest defensive, a P.R. blitz aimed at countering critics of its new Stryker armored vehicle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Stryker is an excellent vehicle. I can't imagine being out here with anything less.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Stryker saves lives. For everybody out there who says it's -- that it doesn't have survivability, they don't know what the hell they're talking about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I tell you, the weapons systems on that vehicle, holy (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Those things are incredible.

MCINTYRE: Criticism of the Stryker was fueled by an internal Army "Lessons Learned" review first reported by CNN last month which detailed dozens of deficiencies with the fighting vehicle, everything from the vulnerability of add-on armor, to lack of air conditioning for high-tech electronics. Critics dismissed the video testimonials as propaganda and a waste of tax dollars.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, of course when the Army puts a camera in front of a serviceman and says, "Say how great the Stryker is," what do you think the guy is going to say? If there are problems and there is money to mount a campaign, why don't we spend the money -- rather than mounting the campaign -- on fixing the problems?

MCINTYRE: The Army insists problems with the Stryker were all minor and being fixed. And it argues the Stryker is at the heart of its plan to convert to a lighter, more nimble force.

But the critics, including some retired Army officers, argue that experience in Iraq has shown that more heavily armored tracked vehicles, like the old M113 Gavin, are better and in ready supply in storage. At least one soldier who served in both says, while the M113 might be better than a lightly armored Humvee, it still doesn't compare to a Stryker.

LT. COL. KARL REED, U.S. ARMY: It's absolutely no way a better option than the Stryker. That's 20-years-ago technology.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Project on Government Oversight has set up a blog site. And they're soliciting e-mails from soldiers who have served in the Stryker to see if they sing the praises of the vehicle as loudly in private when they have confidentiality as they do in the Army's public relation's video -- Lou.

DOBBS: And to whom is that Army public relation's video directed? And who is presenting it?

MCINTYRE: Well, one copy of it was hand-delivered to the watch- dog group that was one of the critics. The Army's quite defensive about this. They feel they are getting a bad rap on the Stryker.

They say that these statements from the soldiers who served in them are genuine and reflect the fact that the vehicle is doing a good job. But some of the critics aren't convinced.

And as I said, they're hoping to get some candid responses from some soldiers to see if they really believe what they're saying on those videotapes.

DOBBS: You know, Jamie, as we often end up here when we look at these issues, it just -- it's utterly remarkable that the United States, Department of Defense, cannot put forward clear, critical, empirical assessment, quantitatively, making a judgment as to whether or not a piece of equipment, a weapons system -- and in this case the Stryker -- is effective or not.

Why is that the case?

MCINTYRE: Well, I have to say that in this Army "Lessons Learned" report, which we obtained a copy of earlier and reported on earlier, it did give the Stryker an overall good performance. It had a list of things that needed to be improved. And you could either look at that as refinements, that we're making a good weapon better, or you can look at it as deficiencies.

And I think the ultimate test has to really come from the people who use them in combat. The one thing we can say, for instance, that 15 soldiers have died in attacks on Strykers. But it's hard to draw a conclusion from that, because some of them were simply accidents where the Stryker rolled over when a bridge collapsed. Others, and other soldiers have died even in very heavily armed -- armored M1A1 tanks.

So without examining each incident, it's hard to tell if the Stryker was at fault there or there were other circumstances.

DOBBS: Perhaps Secretary Donald Rumsfeld would open up the issue to CNN, and specifically to our senior Pentagon correspondent to make that assessment. We should -- maybe if you don't mind, we'll right now extend that request for an invitation to do so.

MCINTYRE: I'll certainly pass that along.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. As always, Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Up next, "Exporting America:" one lawmaker's campaign to strip government subsidies from companies that export American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.

And "China Syndrome:" how it's competing with the United States to secure some of the world's most critically important resources.

Those stories are next here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: There is outrage tonight in New York State over lucrative tax breaks and training grants for companies that are shipping American jobs overseas to cheap labor markets. Now one lawmaker has made it his mission to destroy those subsidies.

Christine Romans has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Richard Brodsky doesn't want New Yorkers to pay for exporting New York jobs overseas. He's leading a charge in the state assembly to outlaw training grants and tax breaks for companies who make their money by helping other New York companies outsource.

RICHARD BRODSKY (D), NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY: It's one thing to create 20 jobs. It's another thing if those 20 jobs are used to export 2,000 jobs. That's what's happened. Global Sutherland is the best example. ROMANS: That's an upstate outsourcer that reaped more than $900,000 in training grants and tax breaks for creating 683 jobs in the state. Six hundred eight-three jobs here, but its Web site doesn't mention those. Instead, it boasts of the 7,000 jobs and counting created in India.

The chairman of Empire State Development says taxpayer money for outsourcers like Sutherland is appropriate.

CHARLES GARGANO, CHAIRMAN, EMPIRE STATE DEVELOPMENT: We do not support outsourcing. Of course we don't. But we cannot determine, and we cannot dictate to a company or a corporation on how they should run their business.

ROMANS: But Brodsky and his coalition don't want to dictate how a company does business. They just don't want New York taxpayers to pay for outsourcing. And Brodsky goes further, putting companies like Xerox and IBM on notice.

BRODSKY: Once you get the benefit, if you do end up outsourcing those jobs, you've got to give us the money back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think that we can sit back and be smug and say, look, you come here and create 1,000 jobs. But if you take two out, we're going to penalize you and we want all the incentives back. I mean, that's nonsense.

ROMANS: Nonsense, he says, and isolationist.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Sutherland Global did not return calls and an e-mail for comment. Overall, it has now added about 1,700 jobs in New York as it sets up shop to ship other jobs overseas -- Lou.

DOBBS: New York State wants to give tax breaks to a company whose job it is to outsource American jobs. Have any of these people been to Buffalo, to Rochester, to Syracuse? I mean this is just mind- boggling.

ROMANS: They say their only mission is to reward companies that are creating jobs here. If a company creates 600, 1,600 jobs here, it can get these tax breaks and training grants.

DOBBS: And destroy...

ROMANS: It doesn't matter if down the road it is setting up shop here to ship thousands more jobs overseas.

DOBBS: That's a remarkable story. And thank goodness some people are waking up. Appreciate it. Christine Romans. And get to feeling better.

ROMANS: Thank you.

DOBBS: The shipment of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is due in part to the so-called free trade agreements that the United States is rushing to sign with other countries. Tonight, the United States has a new competitor in that race, China.

China is increasing its trade all across South America, buying up some of the world's most valuable resources in the process. Lucia Newman reports from Santiago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Chinese negotiating team arrives in Chile, bearing smiles and brief cases to negotiate a free trade agreement with the world's number one producer of copper. From Havana to Tierra del Fuego, China is slipping through America's back door, signing deals to gobble up Venezuela's oil, Brazil's grains and iron, Cuba's nickel, and Chile's copper needed for Beijing's seemingly unstoppable economic expansion

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is a strategic decision with great foresight.

NEWMAN: Trade between Chile and China has more than doubled in the last year -- the price of Chilean copper skyrocketing thanks to China's insatiable appetite. So only a year after becoming the first South American country to sign a free trade deal with United States, Chile is now looking to do the same with China.

CARLOS FURCHE, CHILEAN DIRECTOR, GENERAL ECONOMIC AFFAIRS: Our only option to be a more developed country is to participate in the globalization process.

NEWMAN: But at what price? Many warn Latin America may be just swapping one commodity-hungry superpower, the United States, for another.

MICHAEL GRASTY, U.S.-CHILE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Once we get absorbed by this Chinese vacuum that will absorb anything we have to produce, we need to be careful. We need to go into the direction that we have identified, not into the direction that we are sucked into.

NEWMAN: China's only interested in importing commodities, which limits the region's development.

(on camera): At the rate it's going, in five years China could replace the United States as the region's number one trading partner, an economic conquest of the Americas that's setting off alarm bells in Washington, which until now seems to have taken its southern neighbors for granted.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Santiago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And coming up next here, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger speaks out about border security just a week after he retracted his call to close our borders. We'll have a special report next. And then, a community college in one state says it's going to start giving illegal aliens diplomas. The president of that school is our guest here tonight.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of California is once again blasting the federal government for its failure to protect our nation's borders. Governor Schwarzenegger has, of course, the largest illegal population in the country in his state. And he is praising the border volunteer group that President Bush once called vigilantes.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Barely a week after criticizing the federal government's inability to secure the border with Mexico, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger again entered the growing national debate over immigration policy. He called into a popular Los Angeles talk radio program and praised Arizona's Minuteman Project, which is set to expand into California this fall.

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I think they've done a terrific job, and they've -- look, they've cut down the crossing of illegal immigrants by a huge percentage. So it just shows that it works. It is a shame that the private citizen has to go in there and start patrolling our borders.

WIAN: Those comments drew immediate criticism from the governor's political opponents. Senator Dianne Feinstein said in a statement, "I am surprised that the governor, rather than the call the president of his party and urge additional Border Patrol agents, has just made a statement praising efforts by untrained volunteers to patrol the borders."

Others even accuse the governor of immigrant bashing and racism. After a news conference today introducing a new state education secretary, we asked the governor if his endorsement of the Minutemen means he'll join them on the border when they arrive in California.

SCHWARZENEGGER: Well, I have no plan. I think the most important thing is to know that I'm a champion for immigrants, and I promote immigration. I'm an immigrant myself. And I think it is extremely important that we do it in the legal way.

WIAN: While clearly trying to answer his critics, he also again defended the Minutemen.

SCHWARZENEGGER: And when the government in a state or the country doesn't do its job, then the private citizens go out. It is like a neighborhood patrol. It's like they didn't step in and they tried to help. WIAN: During his radio appearance, Schwarzenegger blasted the southern California Spanish-language TV station that has put up billboards the words "Los Angeles, California" changed to "Los Angeles, Mexico." He said they promote illegal immigration and should be taken down immediately.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: An executive with the TV station's parent company says the billboard campaign is being reviewed after Schwarzenegger's comments. Anti-illegal alien activists plan a protest at the station this weekend -- Lou.

DOBBS: I'm sorry, the illegal alien -- say that again.

WIAN: Anti-illegal alien activists are planning a protest this weekend at that -- at that station.

DOBBS: It's getting complicated.

WIAN: It sure is.

DOBBS: You have to give Governor Schwarzenegger -- now you were with him today -- but you have to give him great credit. He's not backing off because he got the obligatory charge of being anti- immigrant and being even racist by some of the more exuberant folks who don't have a response to the facts. How did he stand up to all of that?

WIAN: He stood up to it pretty well. He clearly tried to soften a little bit of the tone from his radio station interview, which was to a different audience.

He went out of his way to say he supported immigrants, but he supported only legal immigrants. But he refused to back down from his comments. Again, called the Minuteman Project, likened it to a Neighborhood Watch program, refused to engage in any of this vigilante talk that many of the questioners asked him about -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, you have covered those volunteers down on the border with Mexico and the state of Arizona. Does your assessment from your coverage, your reporting, match that of Governor Schwarzenegger's?

WIAN: Absolutely. I know you were down there with me, Lou. And we didn't see any folks that I would characterize as vigilantes.

We saw people who were watching and reporting to the Border Patrol. And, you know, there haven't been any violent incidents, as so many people feared. And I think it bears out.

DOBBS: And as the governor pointed out, Casey, they actually were effective in what they set out to do, something that the government is not doing. And that is a time-honored tradition in this country. A lot of Americans have forgotten it, and it's very uncomfortable for Americans. But when the government does fail to take action on issues that are important to the community, to the state and to the nation, it's our responsibility as citizens to do so. And my hat certainly is off to those Minuteman volunteers who are going to expand their operations.

Casey Wian, as always, thank you sir.

WIAN: Sure.

DOBBS: Our quote of the day comes from White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan. He was asked about the president indirectly, his reference to the Minutemen -- the president's reference as "vigilantes." He was asked today about the Minutemen again and their effort to patrol the U.S. border. As you may recall, the president did at one point refer to them as "vigilantes," as did Mexican President Vicente Fox.

Now McClellan today had this to say. It's our "Quote of the Day."

"The President's initial concern was that people who are armed might be taking matters into their own hands, instead of letting the appropriate authorities deal with these matters. The president believes very strongly that people ought to report suspicious activity to the proper authorities and let the proper authorities address it."

Well, with all due respect to Mr. McClellan, the Minutemen said all along that they would not take matters into their own hands. They promised there would be no violence and entirely appropriate conduct. And they did allow the proper authorities to deal with suspicious activity. The result was the arrest of a number of illegal aliens, and in point of fact, it's sort of interesting to see that the president has yet to commend these activist citizens. Perhaps that will be next week.

Coming up next here, another illegal alien giveaway. I'll be talking with the community college president who says he's concerned about the lack of opportunity for illegal aliens in this country. We'll tell you what his school is doing to better accommodate those illegal aliens.

And the Real I.D. Act is moving a step closer to reality. I'll be joined by chairman of the Immigration and Border Security Subcommittee in the U.S. Senate, Senator John Cornyn.

And in our "Heroes" tonight, our weekly tribute to our men and women in uniform. The inspirational story of a paratrooper wounded in Afghanistan, now recovered from his wounds. He's back in the military in memory of his fallen comrades. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, there is some outrage in the community in North Carolina after the community college said it will begin handing out degrees to illegal aliens. Forsyth Technical, in Winston-Salem, already allows illegal aliens to attend classes. My guest tonight is the president of the school, Gary Green, joining us from Winston- Salem, North Carolina.

Good to have you with us.

GARY GREEN, PRESIDENT OF FORSYTH TECHNICAL: It's a pleasure to be here.

DOBBS: The reaction from the community has not been entirely favorable, but let me ask first, why is it necessary for you to, first of all, provide education from a public supported institution to illegal aliens, and at the same time provide them degrees? Why the change in policy?

GREEN: Well, we're providing opportunities for young people who are coming through our K-12 system here in Winston-Salem. We have individuals, young people, who have come here -- often came here as young children. Who have grown up in our community, live in our community and are going to be staying in our community. They're graduating from our high schools and have no opportunity for educational advancement beyond that.

DOBBS: So, it's a requirement that they have been in your school system, your K through 12. From K, or from 11 through 12, what's the break-off point?

GREEN: Through high school. They have to have graduated from a North Carolina high school.

DOBBS: Right, but how long must have they been in your educational system?

GREEN: There's no limit on the amount of time that they've been in the system.

DOBBS: Oh.

GREEN: But they have had to have graduated. Let me add, also, that in addition to that, they will be paying out-of-state tuition, which really actually covers the full cost of their education. It's not supplemented by the state. And of course, they're ineligible for federal and state financial aid as well.

DOBBS: This is -- one is -- we all know, one of the most difficult, frustrating issues in this entire matter of our immigration law mess in this country. But the fact is, you're giving them a degree, you're training them in a vocation.

What do you expect to happen after that?

GREEN: Well, obviously there are concerns about individuals' ability to work without documentation. And the educational institutions certainly are not responsible for our work immigration policy. But believe -- we believe that the inability...

DOBBS: Wait, wait, wait. Mr. Green, let me ask you something. GREEN: Sure.

DOBBS: Just what do you think are you responsible for? Are you simply there to run a factory blind to the laws of the United States?

GREEN: Absolutely not.

DOBBS: Then help me out?

GREEN: No. No. Let me answer that. I want to make sure it's very clear that we are operating within this policy; within all the laws of the United States; within the laws of the state of North Carolina, and we'll continue to do so.

DOBBS: Within the laws -- let me ask you this, if -- do you expect them to be hired?

GREEN: Well, I think that they will have training that will make them eligible to be hired. We certainly encourage them to try to pursue status, a legal status as it becomes available, as they become eligible. So, basically challenge...

DOBBS: So, you're putting the community college in the position of really -- making the U.S. immigration laws subservient to the school. At the same time, you really don't have any control whatsoever on how often, how long the students have been in your public school system. You have no control over whether or not they want to stay in the United States or whether they will return to their country of origin.

Do you have any way to do any of that? Is there a commitment here for citizenship?

GREEN: We're talking about young people who have come here as children. Who may have been brought here, would have been brought here.

(CROSSTALK)

GREEN: I understand, but these are not individuals who have committed a crime. They're individuals that have grown up in our community and in our community.

DOBBS: I understand, but my question is very specific.

GREEN: Uh-huh.

DOBBS: Any control over how long they've been in your public school system?

GREEN: No.

DOBBS: Any commitment on the part or requirement for a commitment on the part of those students to gain citizenship or to remain in this country or not to leave the country? Because your institution's being paid for by taxpayer money. GREEN: That's true, but as I noted earlier...

DOBBS: Well, there is no but there, sir. I mean, your institution is being paid for by the public.

GREEN: That's true. But these students are paying their own way through tuition. The amount that they will pay to attend our institution covers the cost of educating them.

DOBBS: And we appreciate you being here to explain the position and look forward to talking to you again on this important issue. Gary Green...

GREEN: It's a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you.

DOBBS: ... good to have you here.

"Tonight's Poll" question is on the president's prime-time news conference last night. How did President Bush's news conference last night affect your opinion of his Social Security reforms, positively, negatively or no change at all?

Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Now, "Heroes," our weekly salute to the men and women who serve this country. Tonight, the remarkable story of Sergeant First Class John Setzer.

Sergeant Setzer was wounded two years ago this week during his tour in Afghanistan. The sergeant has now recovered from his wounds. He continues to serve the nation.

Bill Tucker reports.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's 06:00 at Fort Brag. For Sergeant First Class John Setzer's paratroopers today, it's a six mile march carrying 65 pounds of gear. In early 2003, the sergeant was in Afghanistan with a platoon he had just trained, securing an area known to be occupied by insurgents.

SERGEANT FIRST CLASS JOHN SETZER, U.S. ARMY: The platoon (ph) commander wanted to move ahead and look at an old staging area.

TUCKER: Insurgents attacked the first group and radio contact was lost. Sergeant Setzer moved his group of 10 soldiers forward.

SETZER: Once we got to the top of the hill, we heard leaders yelling to one another for the soldiers to engage and get down. You could smell the blood from the wounded.

TUCKER: The sergeant took shrapnel in the neck. Disregarding his own injury, he evacuated a wounded airman to safer ground who would later die. He returned to evacuate more men, but was attacked again.

SETZER: The machine gun opened up by 25 meters away, about, what 30, 40 feet. And two rounds hit the T and Z, and one round hit the E. Cut through the body armor, hit the tip of the plate and it bounced up right in here and broke my jaw, shattered my teeth, and went -- and just on the right-hand side, I have shrapnel all up in my face. And they pulled the pieces that were in my eye out. My young PFC was wounded, covered me out that -- out of the vehicle.

TUCKER: The sergeant and Private Dennis were airlifted to Bagram Air Force Base. Sergeant Setzer was in surgery for four-and-a-half hours. When he came to, his first question was about Private Dennis.

SETZER: That's all that matters. It didn't matter about anything else, you know? You have a young, 18-, 19-year-old man. He's got a lot to live for. They told me that they did everything they could for Dennis, but he lost too much blood and he didn't make it.

TUCKER: Sergeant Setzer was awarded the Purple Heart, the Bronze and the Silver Star.

SETZER: I would give up all those awards if I could have those two young men back.

TUCKER: The sergeant is now recovered and is able to return to combat. He has no intention of leaving the military.

SETZER: As long as I breathe and as long as, you know, I can still do it, I love to train. I love to lead.

TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And Sergeant Setzer will continue to lead. This summer, he will spend two months at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, teaching leadership schools (sic) to our nation's future Army officers.

Coming up next, new hope for the Real ID Act, which recently seemed all but dead in Congress. The chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security is our guest.

And then, a critical week for President Bush and his campaign to reform Social Security. Three of the country's very best political journalists join me next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Real ID Act appears to be on its way to becoming law. The measure would reform asylum laws and not allow illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses. Senator John Cornyn and I talked earlier. I asked him if he's confident that that legislation would be attached to the supplemental spending bill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: I am. I'm confident it will be. The one concern I have, Lou, is as important as this is, the Real ID Act, what I want to hope people understand is it doesn't mean we're through with the work we need to do to secure our borders further, as well as deal with interior enforcement and the other issues that go along with comprehensive immigration reform.

DOBBS: And you have been holding hearings on the issue of technology, border security, and how effective that technology is, and certainly as it relates to how effective our border security is. What are your early indications?

CORNYN: Well, it's a work in progress. After 9/11, of course, people became a lot more focused on the issue of border security. The problem is, we don't have enough Border Patrol agents. We don't have enough equipment. Don't have enough aircraft. And we do have new technology, sensors, UAVs and other things that are helping, but we are certainly not where we need to be yet. And we need to continue to reinforce our commitment in terms of financial resources, so we have the people and the equipment necessary to get the job done. But we're not anywhere near close.

DOBBS: There is a rising clamor, and certainly our audience is representative of those raising their voices for that border security in particular. Three-and-a-half years after September 11th, Governor Schwarzenegger in California adding his voice to those congratulating the Minutemen, the volunteer project in Arizona that's expanding. What are your thoughts about the role of volunteers, citizen participation in border security, if the government does not act?

CORNYN: Well, I like the way you phrase the question. The only reason why the Minutemen and citizens have felt it necessary to take this matter into their own hands has been because government has not. And that's a failure of the government. And preferably, I would like to see the government step up to its responsibilities.

I think the Minutemen have certainly drawn a lot of visibility, both here in Washington and there along the border, to this issue in a way that has helped motivate congressmen, elected representatives, to actually do something about border security. So I think the net has been positive. But I would prefer to see the government step up and live up to its responsibilities, and not have ordinary citizens feel like they have to do it themselves.

DOBBS: Senator, in the issue of border security and immigration. Immigration reform itself remains amongst the most emotional and most hotly-contested issues in Washington, D.C. and perhaps around the country. Is it your sense that border security must be a condition precedent to any immigration reform that emerges?

CORNYN: I agree -- I agree it must be for our security. We know that, though, once we just deal with the border security, that that does not deal with what happens in the interior of the country. Senator Jon Kyl and I -- of course he's from Arizona, I'm from Texas -- we both understand, I think, because of who we represent and the states we represent what the seriousness of this issue.

But we need to deal with border security. We need to deal with what happens on the interior of the country in terms of law enforcement. We also need to make sure that employers have the means to determine the legal status of their perspective employees and hold them accountable, too, I think, as part of a comprehensive solution to this problem.

DOBBS: Senator Cornyn, we thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate it.

CORNYN: Thanks, Lou. Good to be back.

DOBBS: And our poll question tonight. How did President Bush's news conference last night affect your opinion of his so-called Social Security reforms? Positively, negatively, no change? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. Results coming right up.

And at the top of the hour here on this network, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson joins us now to tell us what's ahead -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, thanks very much. Yeah, in about 12 minutes from now, a worldwide search for a little girl who has been living a nightmare, a victim of child pornographers. Police are not getting the public's help like they hoped -- the help they need, the help this little girl needs.

Tonight, we're going to find out why and what we can do about it.

Plus, the case of the missing bride. She was supposed to be married tomorrow. Instead, today her family is appealing for help. All that ahead.

Also, "Sleepless in America." Is your snoring spouse keeping you up at night? Find out some ways to help you get some decent shut-eye. Part of our special series, "Sleepless in America." That and more at the top of the hour -- Lou.

DOBBS: Looking forward to it, Anderson. Thank you. Have a great weekend.

Still ahead, I'll be talking about this week's headlines, a busy week, with our newsmakers, three of the best political journalists in the country. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining me now are Karen Tumulty "Time" magazine, Roger Simon "U.S. News & World Report," Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times." Folks, good to have you here.

Let me begin, Karen, with you. The president gave an impressive performance last night. Did he advance the Social Security reform agenda?

KAREN TUMULTY, TIME: I'm not real sure where this will take him, because the problem with the main thing that he did which was the specificity that he added to his plan was essentially simply means testing of Social Security, adding an element of welfare essentially to what has been an entitlement program basically if for the top 70 percent of wage earners in this country, your benefits are going to go down under his proposal. I think that could be a definite no-sell. And it could make a job that was already looking next to impossible look even more so.

DOBBS: Ron, Ken Duberstein said the Democrats simply can not say no to Social Security reform. Is he right?

RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Well, the goal -- clearly the goal of the president's putting out that proposal last night was to increase pressure on Democrats to come forward with their own plan. I'm not sure that he has enough leverage yet to get them to do that.

The Democratic -- the Democrats felt very comfortable using arguments, Karen just raised them, to go after it right away as a benefit cut for the middle class, which in fact it would be in terms of the growth of future benefits. And so far, they're holding it to their position, Lou, that they will not put forward an alternative until President Bush renounces the private accounts. I don't know if he's been able to move them off that yet. We will have to wait and see.

DOBBS: Senator Harry Reid, Roger, said that to accede to the majority leaders' compromise, if you will, or insistence, would be a big wet kiss for the right. What's going to happen with the filibuster issue?

ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": This is a tough one. And I think it's tougher for the Democrats than the Republicans. It's -- some Republicans don't want to press this to the nuclear option, don't want to insist that they can change the rules with just a mere 50 votes and the vote go to the vice president.

On the other hand if they go ahead and do it, the Democrats then have the real dilemma of whether they shut down the Senate. The public in general does not want to see Congress shut down. They elect people to Congress to accomplish things. So this is really a gamble for the Democrats to take on.

BROWNSTEIN: You know, it's really a gamble for both sides, Lou. You know, we are in a -- as we talked about before -- an intensely polarized position in public attitudes. The president's numbers among independent and moderate voters have really cratered quite a bit in the second term. The Republican Congress is not looking at good numbers either in the middle. And if you precipitate this kind of partisan warfare that this nuclear option, as it's called, would undoubtedly instigate, you will face more polarization and more risk for them in the center looking forward to that 2006 election.

DOBBS: You may well be right.

Turning to another issue today, watching polarization and some back pedaling. The White House trying -- the Pentagon in particular trying to back off from Admiral Jacoby's remarks about North Korea, Karen, in which he said point blank that the North Koreans had the capacity to put a nuclear warhead on a missile. What's going on?

TUMULTY: Well, what's going on right now is the White House is still trying to essentially figure out a North Korea policy. The fact is that everything that we have heard from our intelligence does suggest that the nuclear capability is there now. And this is a country that actually does seem to have weapons of mass destruction. And the administration has yet to come up with a sort of clear and coherent policy for dealing with that.

SIMON: Our only real hope in dealing with North Korea is to get the Chinese to pressure them. And this is why we have not pressured China on so many other matters. People say why don't we insist that China follow trade agreements? Why don't we insist that they fairly value their currency? Why don't we insist that they play by the rules?

Why? Because we need China to deal with North Korea. And so far China's been not in a big hurry to do so.

DOBBS: And, Ron, the president last night in that news conference, not talking about illegal immigration which ranks amongst the highest among those surveyed of critically important issues. No discussion of free trade and huge deficits and in an economy that is, frankly, slowing down more than economists would have liked or expected. What's going on there?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, the president put a very optimistic face on conditions last night. You know, he said at one point about the economy. I'm an optimistic fellow. And I think that if the evening had been set to music that would have been the chorus. He just kept going over that theme over.

And again, the problem he has is there are concerns right now that are working -- you know, putting a downward sort of pull on his standing, particularly those high gas prices. He acknowledged that while he has an energy vision that deals with sort of long-term changes, he doesn't have enough his quiver for the short-term problem. So, I think he's left a kind of point toward, you know, more fundamental changes down the road. And yet in a situation where immediate conditions are causing him stress.

DOBBS: And I think in fairness to the president, Karen, I don't know if you'd agree, but we've had a chain of mindless policies for at least 20 years in this country, more like 25 in that we have not dealt with those are now short-term issues. You agree?

TUMULTY: Well, yes. And that's one of the points that the president made was that if there were any decision that could have averted this, it could have been made ten years ago. I don't know how satisfying Americans are going to find that answer, essentially blaming it on Bill Clinton.

DOBBS: Well, I wasn't blaming it on Bill Clinton. I was blaming it on Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter. You want to go through the list? But anyway! And ourselves of course. Principally ourselves I think probably.

TUMULTY: Although, the president said it was ten years ago they should have done it.

DOBBS: Well, forgive me for disputing the president's view. Just offering another parallel view if you will.

Thank you, all. Have a great weekend. Appreciate it.

TUMULTY: Thanks, you too.

SIMON: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll, a preview of what's ahead Monday. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight -- 70 percent of you say President Bush's news conference negatively influenced your opinion on Social Security reform, 3 percent said your opinion was positive, 28 percent no change.

Thanks for being with us tonight, throughout the week in fact. Please join us here Monday. Illegal alien giveaway: I'll be talking with an attorney representing a group of American college students who say they should have the same rights as illegal aliens in this country and they're going to court to make certain they do. "Broken Borders:" We'll be joined by one congressman who says border security must be considered a pillar in our national security policy.

Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. Have a very pleasant weekend. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" begins right now -- Anderson.

END

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