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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Stem Cell Politics; Reforming the U.N.; Majority Power

Aired May 20, 2005 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Saddam Hussein on camera. A British tabloid publishing unauthorized pictures of the former dictator in his underwear. The Bush administration again on the defensive.
And is the United Nations worthy of U.S. support? A powerful congressional committee says no unless the United Nations begins to reform itself.

Our top story tonight, science and politics on a collision course. After a major breakthrough in stem cell research, South Korean scientists say they've produced the first embryonic stem cells that could one day genetically match the cells of injured or sick patients. But that one day is still years and years away. The Korean scientists say their achievement is a significant step forward in efforts to develop new treatments for human beings suffering severe illness and disability.

At the same time, a British research team has produced the world's second cloned embryo. But President Bush today declared that he opposes using taxpayer money to expand embryonic stem cell research in this country.

White House Correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the Oval Office, a warning to lawmakers trying to lift the president's limits on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The use of federal money, taxpayers' money, to promote science which destroys life in order to save life is -- I'm against that. And therefore, if the bill does that, I will veto it.

BASH: Four-plus years in office, the president's never used his veto pen. But Mr. Bush made the rare veto threat to blunt growing support for a bill the House will take up next week with nearly four dozen Republican co-sponsors.

REP. MICHAEL CASTLE (R), DELAWARE: We're essentially saying that there are excess embryos in the in vitro fertilization process and that we should be able to use those excess embryos to harvest stem cells.

BUSH: ... creating ongoing opportunities for research. BASH: In 2001, Mr. Bush decided to allow federal funding for embryonic stem cell research for the first time, but strictly limited it to existing lines. Scientists complained many of those lines were contaminated and unusable in their search to cure diseases like Alzheimer's.

Laura Bush, the daughter of an Alzheimer's victim, speaks out in support of her husband's position, but Nancy Reagan is among Mr. Bush's high opponents on the issue. And a Republican group's TV ad argues current policy stymies medical research.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Call Congress.

BASH: The president hopes to rally conservatives to his side with the argument, destroying embryos is tantamount to destroying life. But a nationwide GOP poll just last month found six in 10 Republicans support embryonic stem cell research. Only 40 percent described it as a right-to-life issue, while 54 percent say they considered it a scientific issue.

Supporters of lifting limits concede they do not have enough votes to override a veto. But Bush allies still call his early active role critical.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: An unambiguous statement by the president of the United States is of incalculable value to those of us who would like to defend the sanctity of life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The president also raised concerns about a report scientists in South Korea have succeed in cloning embryos. The White House says cloning for the sole purpose of research is another step on a slippery slope the president fears will put science ahead of respect for human life and dignity -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much.

The president may not find that support for his position on stem cell research is shared by his own party. A recent opinion poll shows a split among Republicans by a margin of 55 to 38 percent. All Republicans surveyed say they favored that research. But 55 percent of pro-life Republicans do support the president's position on stem cell research.

President Bush is also out of step with some Republican members of Congress who are demanding reform of the United Nations. The House International Relations Committee is now threatening to cut U.S. support of the United Nations.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some members of Congress are saying to the United Nations, shape up or lose your funding. House International Relations Committee chairman Henry Hyde has drafted the United Nations Reform Act of 2005. It threatens to withhold half the dues the United States pays to the United Nations if certain reforms are not carried out.

REP. HENRY HYDE (R), CHAIRMAN, INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: No observer, be they passionate supporter or dismissive critic, can pretend that the current structure and operations of the U.N. represent an acceptable standard. Even the U.N. itself has acknowledged the need for reform.

PILGRIM: The United States is the largest financial supporter of the U.N. and pays about a quarter of the general yearly budget of $2 billion. But scandals have been rampant.

The United Nations oil-for-food program became a firestorm of accusation over millions of dollars of U.N. funding unaccounted for. The Congo peacekeeping scandal called into question accountability and the ability of the organization to monitor itself.

NILE GARDINER, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: This reform bill is long overdue. And the United Nations, an organization which does need to be fundamentally reformed if it is to remain relevant in the 21st century. So this is a very welcomed development aimed at putting tremendous pressure on the U.N. to do the right thing, and to clean up its act.

PILGRIM: The United Nations spokesperson today condemned the threat of withholding funds to press for reform.

STEPHANE DUJARRIC, U.N. SPOKESMAN: The secretary-general's position on the use of withholding as a tool for reform is pretty clear. It's -- he feels its counterproductive.

PILGRIM: A statement that will not stop members of Congress from pressing forward with the demand for reform.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now, the U.N. Reform Act basically is trying to cancel the blank check the United Nations has enjoyed for so long. It wants some programs moved out of the U.N. budget, and it wants to make some programs a voluntary contribution, Lou, so that member countries can look at the books and decide whether they actually would like to fund the program.

DOBBS: And this initiative under way and already with a lot of support. Kitty, thank you. Kitty Pilgrim.

In the Senate tonight, Senator John Cornyn of Texas has set the date and time for a showdown on the future of the filibuster. Senator Cornyn filed the cloture motion to end the debater nomination of Priscilla Owen to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

Joe Johns reports from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist giving a medical school commencement address in South Carolina did not mention a word about the battle over judges in Washington.

SEN. BILL FRIST, (R-TN) MAJORITY LEADER: Congratulations to the class of 2005.

JOHNS: Back in the Senate, the moment of the day came without much fanfare.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN, (R) TEXAS: Without objection on behalf of the majority leader, I send a cloture motion to the desk.

JOHNS: Senator John Cornyn of Texas filed a motion to cut off the debate on the nomination of Priscilla Owen from his own state, a formality that moves the Senate one step closer to a showdown early next week over the ability of Democrats to block nominees they oppose.

SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: The Senate's tradition and its rules protect debate and guarantee that we can't be trampled upon.

SEN. JOHNNY ISAKSON, (R) GEORGIA: To deny someone the opportunity to which they have been nominated by the president of the United States, elected by a majority of the electors in the last election, is not right.

JOHNS: Meanwhile, face-to-face negotiations to end the impasse were put on hold until Monday, though, talks were expected it continue over the weekend by phone. The idea was to get six Democrats and six Republicans to agree to allow certain judges through while others could continue to be blocked. But the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter, who has sat in on the negotiations, says he doesn't want the decision to be made by a small group of senators.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER, (R-PA) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: I cannot subscribe to the idea that a group of 12, however they may ultimately be constituted, ought to make the decision on who is to be confirmed and who ought not to be confirmed. It is my view that ultimately that is really a decision for this body.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: One of the big concerns is what happens going forward, including on Supreme Court nominees. Senators Byrd and Warner are working on a proposal to try to advise the president on that. Byrd has suggested the Senate Judiciary Committee might be able to put together a list of potential nominees that the president could accept or reject.

One other note. We're told there is definitely now an extreme possibility that the Senate of the United States will debate all night long on Monday.

Back to you, Lou.

DOBBS: Joe, Senators Specter makes great sense. In a fact, this issue is now joined. And someone's nomination would be denied a full vote even if there is a compromise, and that would be against the spirit of the Senate and the spirit of majority rule.

There seems to be a collision course that is all but inevitable here, right?

JOHNS: Well, certainly that's true. It does seem like a collision course.

On the other hand, Lou, I have to say, there is a pretty healthy number of senators who are very concerned about the institution, concerned about what could happen if the filibuster is ruled out of order in this particular case. They're afraid it would have broader implications on the United States Senate going down the road. And that is one of the keys to why people are still talking -- Lou.

DOBBS: By a vast majority, those expressing that concern, though, are Democrats, are they not, Joe?

JOHNS: Some Democrats. Also, some Republicans are very concerned about the effects on the Senate in the long term. Still, it's very hard to say whether they'll ever get an agreement.

DOBBS: Joe Johns, as always, thank you.

Coming up next here, protesters on the streets of London, Havana and Iraq. In London, radical Islamists calling for bombing the United States. In Havana, protesters calling for the ouster of Fidel Castro. In southern Iraq, protesters calling for the removal of the United States from Iraq.

And Saddam Hussein exposed. Why is the Pentagon so upset about a British tabloid's publication of photographs of the former dictator?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Hundreds of radical Islamists today staged a noisy protest outside of the U.S. embassy in London. The radical Islamist demonstrators called for the death of President Bush, the destruction of the White House, and a nuclear attack on Washington. British police made no arrests.

Walter Rodgers reports from London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down, down, USA!

CROWD: Down, down, USA!

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About 300 Muslims gathered outside the U.S. embassy in London showing a less than merciful face to political Islam. They called for the killing of Americans, the death of the president of the United States, the death of the British prime minister, the bombing of Britain and the unthinkable in the U.S. capital.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nuke, nuke, Washington!

CROWD: Nuke, nuke, Washington!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bomb, Bomb, Pentagon!

CROWD: Bomb, bomb, Pentagon!

RODGERS: Some of the militant Islamic rhetoric smacked of incitement to commit murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death to Tony Blair!

CROWD: Death to Tony Blair!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death to George Bush!

CROWD: Death to George Bush!

RODGERS: A British policeman said the language was offensive and unpleasant in the extreme. But they overlook that.

Also overlooked, the fact that more than a few of the young men in the crowd covered their faces. Technically a violation of British law, again, according to police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only language that we speak today is a language of jihad!

RODGERS: Ostensibly, these British Muslims are protesting the alleged desecration of their holy book, the Quran, at the American detention center at Guantanamo. That story now retracted by "Newsweek." Still, this former Guantanamo detainee made this accusation...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The soldier picked up the Quran and threw it on the floor.

RODGERS: Holding their Qurans high, they called for death and mayhem, praising the destruction of New York's twin towers. Saying, "The White House is next."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The desecration of the White House is to follow! George Bush, you will pay!

CROWD: George Bush, you will pay!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your blood! With your blood!

CROWD: With your blood! With your blood! RODGERS: This rally remarkable not so much for the size of the crowd, but for the ferocity and virulence of the things said. And before they broke up and went home, meditation. They all prayed.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: In southern Iraq, thousands of supporters of the radical Islamist leader Muqtada al-Sadr today protested against the United States as well. They demanded the immediate withdrawal of American troops from Iraq. These protesters also blasted Israel and called for reforms of the Iraqi police force.

No protests in Jordan, where first lady Laura Bush today arrived. She'll be in the Middle East on a five-day goodwill mission. The first lady will speak to the World Economic Forum tomorrow in Jordan. She will also visit Israel and Egypt.

Suzanne Malveaux reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first lady travels to the Middle East to promote democracy, women's rights and education reform. But as the U.S.'s ambassador of goodwill, she acknowledged en route in the Arab world she's got a tough message to sell.

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: We've had terrible happenings that have really, really hurt our image in the United States. And they're not -- they were very atypical.

MALVEAUX: Mrs. Bush singled out the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal and more recently, the deadly riots of the erroneous "Newsweek" report that U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay Prison had flushed the Quran down the toilet to rattle detainees. The first lady said "Newsweek," which has since retracted the story, was only partly to blame.

BUSH: In the United States, if there's a terrible report, people don't riot, kill other people. And, you know, you can't excuse what they did because of a mistake -- you know, you can't blame it all on "Newsweek." But at the same time, it was irresponsible. And that's -- it's too bad.

MALVEAUX: Despite the first lady's itinerary to hotspots in Jerusalem and the West Bank, Mrs. Bush dismissed any security concerns...

BUSH: I think we'll be -- all be safe.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Amman, Jordan.

(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: No goodwill mission for a British tabloid that today published photographs of Saddam Hussein. The photographs show Saddam Hussein in his underwear. The Pentagon particularly sensitive after the "Newsweek" report has begun an investigation to find the source of those pictures.

Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "The Sun" newspaper splashed the picture of the underwear-clad former dictator on its front page. The British tabloid claimed the photo, along with several others showing Saddam Hussein in captivity, were handed over by U.S. military sources who had said hope to deal a body blow to the resistance in Iraq. Instead, the unauthorized release dealt the U.S. military another public relation's nightmare by provoking outrage from many Iraqis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It is not acceptable to show a president in such way. It must respect the name of a president all over the world regardless of if he is a dictator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What we saw on TV is not right. Saddam Hussein is an Iraqi, and we are a civilized country.

MCINTYRE: In a statement, the U.S. military in Baghdad said the photos were taken in clear violation of DOD directives and possibly Geneva Convention guidelines, and expressed disappointment that someone responsible for the security, welfare and detention of Saddam would provide these photos for public release. Military sources tell CNN, based on the way Saddam looks and the backgrounds, the images appear to have been taken between January and April of 2004 and may have come from a security camera that monitors Saddam around the clock. The military says it's taking the unauthorized release very seriously.

The last thing the U.S. needs is a repeat of the violent demonstrations that followed an erroneous report that military investigators confirmed U.S. interrogators desecrated a Quran. "Newsweek" magazine retracted the story, and President Bush downplayed the idea that the Saddam pictures could spark similar protests.

BUSH: I don't think a photo inspires murderers. I think they're inspired by an ideology that is so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the western world to comprehend how they think.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The military says only a small number people have access to the super secure jail where Saddam Hussein is being held, and personal cameras are completely banned from the facility. That should narrow the number of suspects as the U.S. military promises what it calls an aggressive investigation -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.

Coming up next here, Iraq's new army. Right now, it's more of a problem than a solution. Still unable to fight the insurgency on its own. Even President Bush has his doubts. Our special report is next.

And in Castro's communist Cuba, anti-government protests are rare indeed. We'll show you why hundreds of dissidents were protesting today.

That story and more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: While the White House and Pentagon are apparently in arms over photos of Saddam Hussein, three American soldiers have been killed in Iraq in the past 24 hours. Two U.S. soldiers were killed in a drive-by shooting in central Baghdad. The third soldier died in a traffic accident north of the Iraqi capital.

Separately, a roadside bomb in Baghdad destroyed a U.S. truck. No word on casualties in that attack.

The death of the three Americans highlights the U.S. role in providing security for Iraq and fact that the Iraqi army units are still not ready to assume full responsibility. President Bush acknowledged as much today. President Bush was reacting to reports that only a handful of the Iraqi army's units are combat-ready.

Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. troops and helicopters rush in to help another group of Iraqi security forces still struggling to fight the insurgency. President Bush is offering a sober assessment of Iraqi capabilities.

BUSH: Some units are in really good shape, and other units need additional work.

STARR: Iraqi police forces are lagging behind in their ability to fight insurgents. General John Abizaid, head of the Central Command, says the culture is a unique problem in Iraq.

"Police tend to operate as individuals and the individuals become more susceptible to corruption and intimidation," Abizaid told reporters. "The police," he says, "lack sophistication, a strong chain of command, and cohesive leadership. Iraqi police forces are crucial to fight in the insurgency on city streets."

There are 60,000 Iraqi police that the U.S. considers trained and equipped but not necessarily operationally ready. And until they are, U.S. troops are not likely to come home in large numbers. 135,000 U.S. troops are in Iraq now. President Bush cannot set a timetable yet for when those troops can leave. BUSH: And the definition of that will be how soon our commanders on the ground think that the Iraqis are able to take the fight to the enemy.

STARR: And top commanders are making no predictions when that day might come.

LT. GEN. JOHN VINES, COMMANDER, GROUND FORCES IN IRAQ: Their forces are doing a great job in some cases. In some cases they're not. We're continuing to work with them. And so, as I said, there's been enormous progress that has been made.

STARR (on camera): General Abizaid acknowledges it is still U.S. troops leading the fight against the insurgency. The goal is to get Iraqi forces capable of taking over that mission so U.S. troops can come home.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And the war in Iraq has increased pressure on the Army to recruit more soldiers. And as a result, some recruiters have used improper recruiting methods.

Today, more than 7,000 Army recruiters stepped down. They stopped work to review ethics and the rules governing their recruitment.

The stand-down comes at a difficult time for the Army. The Army has missed its recruiting goals for three straight months. As a result, the Army has raised incentives for new recruits. It's also offered a new 15-month term of enlistment for the active duty force.

Coming up next here, hundreds of Cubans gather in Havana to demand the end of the Castro regime. How the White House helped organize the first protest of its kind in the history of the regime, it's 46-year history.

And then, a group of thousands of African-American farmers blasting Mexican President Vicente Fox for his offensive comments. The leader of the National Association of Black Farmers will be our guest to tell us why President Fox must do something to rectify his comments. That's coming up next.

And in "Heroes," the almost unbelievable story of 1st Sergeant Brad Castle (ph), how he managed to save himself and another Marine looking down the barrel of an AK-47. He's next in "Heroes."

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In Cuba tonight, the boldest act of public protest against Fidel Castro in the 46 years he's ruled that country. Two hundred dissidents in the Cuban capital calling for an end to his regime. Lucia Newman reports from Havana.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the backyard of a working-class Havana neighborhood, an event few believed Cuba's communist government would tolerate, got under way -- the assembly to promote a civil society in Cuba.

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE, DISSIDENT ORGANIZER (through translator): We are more convinced than ever that our country belongs to all of us and that we are here to open the door.

NEWMAN: Delegates responded chanting "freedom, freedom." Opponents of Cuba's communist government were euphoric.

VLADIMIRO ROCA, DISSIDENT (through translator): Because we are exercising our right that our people have been denied for 46 years, the right to gather peacefully, to discuss our country's problems and to seek solutions.

NEWMAN: Among a handful of foreign diplomats was Washington's man in Havana.

JAMES CASON, CHIEF U.S. EXECUTIVE OFFICER: For us, this is a unique example of grassroots democracy. In spite of all the obstacles, I see that there must be at least 120, 150 people here, so.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, many future leaders of a free Cuba...

NEWMAN: After playing a taped message of encouragement from President George Bush, the two-day assembly began discussing ways to transition Cuba towards democracy.

(on camera): Dozens of would-be foreign observers were refused visas to come to Cuba, while, on the eve of the assembly, authorities expelled or refused entry at the airport to at least four European deputies and an unknown number of others who wanted to attend.

(voice-over): But there were many other empty seats, underscoring the deep and bitter divisions in Cuba's outlawed dissident movement.

Prominent opposition leader Oswaldo Paya was among those who refused to attend, calling the meeting a fraud.

OSWALDO PAYA, OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): We have no confidence in its leaders, who've manipulated and maneuvered against our civic initiate for years.

NEWMAN: The Castro government calls them all mercenaries in the pay of the USA. Others dismiss them as hard-liners. But what few dispute is that this opposition gathering is unprecedented.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Havana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Our guest tonight is among the many who are outraged by comments by Mexican President Vicente Fox. John Boyd is the founder and the president of the National Black Farmers Association. It's a group with more than 66,000 members nationwide. He joins us tonight from Richmond, Virginia. John, good to have you with us.

JOHN BOYD, PRES., NATIONAL BLACK FARMERS ASSOCIATION: Lou, thank you very much for having us tonight.

DOBBS: Reverend Al Sharpton will be meeting with President Fox. Reverend Jesse Jackson did do so. And at the same time, seemed to basically absolve Fox of the comments that he made. Those comments being that Mexican illegal aliens in this country doing work that quote/unquote, "black Americans won't do." What is your reaction to the outcome of that meeting and to Jesse Jackson's position?

BOYD: Well, basically, Lou, we're outraged by his comments, because we feel as though that he's relating to blacks as the last race, so to speak. And President Fox hasn't came up with any kind of resolutions. And I certainly commend Reverend Jackson for meeting with President Fox, but he has to do more than just acknowledge his comments. He has to come up with some kind of solution as to how he is going to begin to work with blacks in this country.

And we've been pressing him, Lou, to pursue contracting efforts with black farmers here in the U.S., and we've written several letters. We haven't heard anything from President Fox. And he, again, we want to be real clear, that he has to do more than just acknowledge his statements. He has to come up with a plan of action as to how he is going to work with African-Americans here in this country.

DOBBS: First, should he apologize outright?

BOYD: Oh, no question. That's the least that he can do. He can make a statement, apologizing to African-Americans. And you know, blacks came to this country, Lou, as slaves. And you know, worked in the fields for scot-free, and opened the doors for all immigrants to work here in this country. And to have him degrade us that way, or not apologize, is definitely a slap in the face.

DOBBS: It's really also, isn't it, a slap in the face of all who work in agriculture, who work jobs that are tough, long hours, low pay. My reaction to it, frankly, aside from the racial insult that was uttered by the president, it seems to me to demean work itself. How do you react to that?

BOYD: No question. And here again, anybody who works in the fields and does that kind of hard labor, agriculture is tough. It's tough whether you're black, white, blue, green or brown. But having him degrade you in such a way, I think, you know, here again was a low blow. And he's going to have to come up with a strategy here to mend the fences, and I haven't heard that yet.

DOBBS: Let's go to your point. And that being, that he has to come up with a way -- and you said specifically, John, to work with black farmers in this country. What would you like...

BOYD: That's correct.

DOBBS: ... to hear from him?

BOYD: We would like to hear about contracting for us to provide food to the Mexican government. I am sure that they are purchasing food from other countries around the world, and there's crops that we grow here that are not grown in Mexico. And we would like to begin that kind of -- those type of specific dollar -- of excuse me, to -- for us to deliver commodities to the Mexican government.

And I think that that will show a commitment from President Fox that he's willing to work with blacks, and other than just make statements about them, but really sincerely want to work with blacks here in this country.

DOBBS: All right. As you well know, most estimates, and they're only that, estimates, that half the agricultural workers in this country are illegal.

BOYD: Right.

DOBBS: Would you like to see Vicente Fox also step forward and shut down illegal immigration, or do you see it as critical that this labor continue?

BOYD: Well, I think that's a two-sided edge. Number one, there's bills floating around on Capitol Hill to make these individuals permanent residents while they're working. And Lou, we've had a tough time as to working with the United States Department of Agriculture, and working here in our U.S. government. And there's no bills floating around on Capitol Hill to help black farmers stay on their farm...

DOBBS: Including the ag jobs bill.

BOYD: (INAUDIBLE) for some time. Including -- including -- including that ag jobs bill. That's correct. So we would like to see more of a commitment from our own country, to look at people who helped build this country right here in the U.S. first, before we commit to helping other races here in the country as to -- as to become citizens.

The voting rights bill expires next year for blacks in this country. So we would like to see more of a commitment from our own federal government, to work with African-American farmers right here in this country.

DOBBS: John Boyd, we thank you for being here.

BOYD: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Lou.

DOBBS: Our quote of the day is from Los Angeles Mayor-Elect Antonio Villaraigosa, on civilians patrolling our borders, referencing the Minutemen Project. He said: "We need our Department of Homeland Security, which patrols the border, to address the issue of security. We have an old saying from the days of the wild, wild West: Leave your gun outside of the city limits. It doesn't make any sense for people to take the law into their own hands."

Well, Mr. Mayor-Elect, that's an interesting thing. I have studied the West, its literature, and I have never heard the expression "leave your gun outside the city." I also would point out to you that the Minuteman Project was certainly outside the city limits in Arizona, and I would also point out to you that they were never once outside the law.

Alarming news tonight from U.S. Immigration and Customs, about illegal aliens with access to sensitive and critical locations in this country. ICE today announced the arrest of 60 illegal aliens, all working at key sites. Those sites including seven petrochemical refineries, three power plants, and a national air cargo facility. The arrests took place in California, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas. Some of the illegal aliens could face federal charges for violations such as re-entering the United States after their deportation, and use of fraudulent documents to gain employment.

Turning now to our poll question. As we've reported earlier, President Bush said today he's against using taxpayer money to expand embryonic stem cell research in this country. We ask your opinion. Should your tax dollars fund stem cell research? Yes or no? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.

Coming right up, tonight's "Newsmakers," three of the country's best political journalists. Also, "Heroes." One Marine's harrowing story of struggle, survival and heroism. How his bravery saved the lives of his fellow Marines. That story is next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In "Heroes" tonight, a Marine who was face-to-face with heavily-armed insurgent forces in Iraq. First Sergeant Brad Kasal nearly lost his life trying to save his fellow wounded Marines during a bloody battle with insurgents in Fallujah. But modestly, he says he's not the real hero in this story. Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE; That catwalk that was over the living room went 360 degrees around.

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First Sergeant Brad Kasal listens as his buddy Lieutenant Grigg (ph) fills in details about what happened in that day in Fallujah last November, the day he was shot over and over again and nearly lost his life.

Two young Marines listened intently as well. They saved Kasal's life by carrying him to safety.

LANCE CPL. CHRISTOPHER MARQUEZ, U.S. MARINE CORPS: 1st Sergeant Kasal was a tough Marine. He got shot 7 times, took like over 40 pieces of shrapnel in him and he was still, like, able to do his job and get his job done.

WIAN: Five days into the Fallujah offensive, Kasal found himself literally looking down the barrel of an AK-47 as he tried to rescue wounded Marines in a house.

FIRST SGT. BRAD KASAL, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I just took my M-16 and I stuck it over his AK. And put it right in between his arms and right up against his chest. And my put my barrel and started pulling trigger. And I pulled it eight, nine, maybe 10 times before he finally went down to the ground.

WIAN: Kasal turned, yelling for cover. As he did, a barrage of automatic gunfire.

KASAL: I remember several thugs just hitting my leg. And several rounds hitting the wall all around me. And after about the fourth or fifth thud that hit my leg, my leg just collapsed out from underneath me. And I fell to the ground.

WIAN: Behind him, another Marine had been hit.

KASAL: I crawled back out into the line of fire. And I remember as soon as I did that, rounds just started hitting all around me again. And I grabbed Nicol's (ph) sleeve and pulled him down and started dragging him out of the line of fire.

WIAN: Kasal took another bullet in the back side. He was losing blood quickly, but still managed to get a tourniquet onto the wounded Marine beside him. Then Kasal saw a grenade.

KASAL: I rolled over on top of him, covered him up. And then the grenade went off.

WIAN: Kasal was peppered with shrapnel, but both Marines survived the blast. Kasal has been recommended for a medal for bravery but says the young Marines who rescued him are the real heroes.

Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Sergeant Kasal still faces months of surgery and physical therapy before he'll be able to walk again. He's been a Marine for more than two decades and says his goal in life is to return to the work he loves, in the U.S. Marine Corps. We wish him well.

Still ahead, a critical week in American politics from the controversial debate over filibusters to controversial comments from Mexico's president. We'll be talking about all of that and more with three of the nation's leading political journalists. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining me now from Washington, Karen Tumulty, "Time" magazine, Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times," here in New York, Jim Ellis, "Businessweek" magazine. Thanks for being here.

Karen, let's start. Filibusters: the nation, you would believe looking at the political accounts from the parties and from the media is at risk based on whatever happens. Is it?

KAREN TUMULTY, TIME: Well, most of the nation could care less about this issue. This is not on pretty much anybody's list of priorities outside the activists in both parties. But it is possible that this vote, if it happens, and this is a bipartisan group of senators who are trying to stave it off, to essentially pull their colleagues away from the brink, it could bring about some changes in the culture of the Senate.

DOBBS: Does it need changing, this culture of the Senate?

TUMULTY: Well, I got to tell you, I was watching some of this debate there this week. And in terms of -- something they used to call the world's greatest deliberative body, things are sort of skidding along the bottom now. People are invoking Hitler and Star Wars characters and who knows what else in their name-calling.

DOBBS: It's hardly an elevated discourse that the point.

Ron Brownstein, Mexican President Vicente Fox saying he can't quite apologize for referring to his illegal aliens in this country as doing work that quote/unquote only blacks -- American blacks would do.

RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Wouldn't do, yes.

DOBBS: Where are we headed with this mess?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think, obviously it was an extremely unfortunate and insensitive comment. He's tried to backtrack. But go beyond, kind of the inflammatory nature of the words, the underlying argument. It's one that you hear quite a bit in this debate. There's the point of view, President Bush has reflected it, that illegal immigrants are doing work that Americans won't do.

It might be more accurate to say that in many cases illegal immigrants are doing work that Americans won't do at the wages they're being offered to do them.

DOBBS: There you go!

BROWNSTEIN: So, in some ways what Fox, the door that Fox opens here sort of points to the question of, before you look at things like the guest worker program, do you have to look at raising the minimum wage? It's -- if you sort of take two steps from where he is, I think that's the question it'll lead you to.

DOBBS: Of course, you wonder, Ron, if people want to break the law of hiring illegal aliens, if people won't enforce the law by permitting three million illegal aliens to cross the border, who's going to worry about a little thing like a minimum wage?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, you know, enforcement in all of this is tough. And in fact, Lou, that's really at the core of the illegal immigrant debate, if think, whether there is an enforcement solution or not. And I think that is really the bright line between those who are skeptical of anything like what President Bush or John McCain and Ted Kennedy want to do and those who believe that ultimately that we're never going to get control of the borders unless we have some sort of regularized flow.

DOBBS: You can't do anything, you can't say this country has national security, you can't say this country has any kind of immigration law if you don't control the borders, condition precedent, case closed. There's no other way.

Jim Ellis, let me ask you this. Stem cell research -- the president says he's going to veto it, yet his own party says they want it.

JIM ELLIS, BUSINESSWEEK: He's in a very difficult position, simply because so many people at the core of his base really still question for religious reasons -- and also do think that the president himself might have some personal issues with it -- the problem is that it holds a real medical sort of possibility of real breakthrough science there, and the United States, by not sort of effectively funding it, is basically going to hand over the next sort of medical leap to other parts of world. I mean, there are some people, like the state of California, that are doing private funding. And a lot of rich investors are getting into it, but the government really has to come forward on this. I don't there is any choice.

DOBBS: We're going to be back with Karen Tumulty, Ron Brownstein and Jim Ellis in just one second. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Ron Brownstein, I want to start with you on this, and we are going to put up a quote from David Brooks, "New York Times," talking about the "Newsweek" controversy, in which the president, the Pentagon, Donald Rumsfeld blamed ""Newsweek for the deaths in Afghanistan, reacting to the claims of desecration of the Koran. Brooks wrote -- "We're in the middle of an ideological war against people who want to destroy us, and what have the most powerful people on earth become? Whining media bashers. They're attacking 'Newsweek' while bending over backwards to show sensitivity to the Afghans who just went on a murderous rampage."

What say you?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I say a couple of things about this. First of all, it's obviously, it's always unfortunate when the press gets something wrong, especially on a big and sensitive story like this. On the other hand, Lou, what "Newsweek" retracted was the claim that the Pentagon had confirmed...

DOBBS: Yeah, Ron, I am sorry. I didn't make my question clear. What do you think of what David Brooks said?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think that, you know, I think David Brooks is right. I mean, you know, the idea that those rioting in Afghanistan or London needed "Newsweek" to convince them to go out in the streets is silly. I mean, we are dealing with an ideology that is fundamentally opposed to us and our position in the world and our influence in the Middle East. And with or without this, they will find a provocation.

But I think it's important to understand that what "Newsweek" retracted and what it didn't. I mean, there are still allegations of this sort out there, and I am not sure this is going to be the last word.

DOBBS: Yeah, well, it's not the last word, and what I'm really interested in is the way the media just started doing a lot of navel gazing.

Karen, let me ask you this, Social Security, the president's chief adviser on indexing says, move away from private accounts. Has the nation, has Congress, has this administration yet had a belly full of Social Security reform, as the president is styling it?

TUMULTY: They haven't. And this whole saga is starting to have the feel of a Monty Python movie, where it's, you know...

DOBBS: A bad Monty Python.

TUMULTY: Right. But it's dead, and nobody wants to admit that it's dead. I mean, every...

DOBBS: Have we upset Ron there, Karen?

BROWNSTEIN: I'm not dead yet.

DOBBS: Well, let me see how we can upset everybody, because I thought one of the most colorful, interesting, well-written columns of the week was Ann Coulter, in which she wrote these words amongst others in a column entitled "Newsweek Dissembled, Muslims Dismembered," if we can put that up, Jim Ellis, I am just dying to ask you this. "Bumper sticker idea for a liberal," she wrote -- that's not right one. If we can go to "Newsweek Dissembled" -- there it is.

"Bumper sticker idea for liberals," she wrote. "News magazines don't kill people, Muslims do." What do you think, Jim?

ELLIS: Well, I don't think it would run in "Businessweek." But Ms. Coulter has a way with words, as we have seen in the past. I think that -- I understand why so many people are upset about this, because in the Middle East, this is a very severe task we have gotten ourselves into. But the problem is that here in the U.S., we are at war with the Middle East. We are at war, I should say, in Iraq.

DOBBS: With radical Islamists.

ELLIS: Radical Islam (INAUDIBLE) that many people in our culture need to basically end their lives, and so therefore we have to realize that...

DOBBS: They're killing people.

ELLIS: Right.

DOBBS: People here are reacting to desecration -- claims, unsubstantiated claims of desecrating the Koran. I would just have one idea for Ann Coulter, people are getting upset there with the conservatives. Bumper sticker idea for liberals and conservatives, and it will work there. Nice idea.

Let me turn quickly to Ken and Daria Dolan. "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED" tomorrow, 10:00 a.m. right here on the world's most important network.

KEN DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED: That is correct, and thank you for the cup. I appreciate it very much.

DOBBS: And what are you going to do for us tomorrow, Daria?

DARIA DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED": We...

DOBBS: Because we know Ken probably will have limited contributions.

K. DOLAN: (INAUDIBLE) participation.

D. DOLAN: Well, you know, we're going to take a look at the broken sectors of the economy as they affect us. And that is, trains, planes and automobiles.

DOBBS: Well, those are three hard-hitting areas.

K. DOLAN: Yeah, we talk a bit -- will talk a little bit about the merger as you talked about, Lou. I went down and talked about Amtrak in Washington -- talk about depressing -- and not far behind that, of course, is the state of the auto industry. And it's not so much from a newsstand point, but rather what would we do as investors and people and our plans?

DOBBS: So tomorrow, the Dolans on "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," 10:00 a.m. CNN, are going to call for nationalizing the airline industry, changing trade policy so that it won't be a giveaway to foreign car makers, and...

K. DOLAN: And stop wasting money on Amtrak.

D. DOLAN: No, no, no, no.

K. DOLAN: No?

D. DOLAN: You know, in the cases of Amtrak and the airlines, remember the movie "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?"

DOBBS: I do.

D. DOLAN: Well.

DOBBS: Come on, I mean, I'd love... (CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Look, my favorites are trains. So leave the trains alone.

D. DOLAN: All right. America West and U.S. Air. The Titanic and Lusitania joined together will go down faster.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: You don't like them. You haven't had good experiences with those airlines, huh?

D. DOLAN: No, no, no.

DOBBS: Ah.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: You are going to try to (INAUDIBLE), right?

K. DOLAN: Yeah, I talked to people in Washington, but the people I talked with, Lou, said let's not talk about profitability. We can't do that. It's been around since 1970. Thirty-five years, we haven't done it yet. Let's talk about public service and its role in America's national security.

DOBBS: The airline industry hasn't made a dime since they got started.

K. DOLAN: Since Kitty Hawk.

DOBBS: You got it.

K. DOLAN: Want to talk about autos? No, I don't. Tomorrow morning.

D. DOLAN: Yeah.

K. DOLAN: OK.

DOBBS: Thanks. We'll look forward to it.

K. DOLAN: Thanks, Lou.

D. DOLAN: Thanks.

DOBBS: Ken, Daria, thanks. "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," 10:00 a.m., tomorrow right here on CNN.

Now, the results of our poll. The question -- should your tax dollars fund stem cell research? Eighty-three percent of you say, you bet. Seventeen percent of you say no.

Thank you for voting and thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here Monday. Reverend Al Sharpton will be our guest, live from Mexico City, after his face-to-face meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox. Also, the sponsors of legislation that would allow federal funding for stem cell research. We'll be here to debate the legislation.

Labor leaders fighting to stop the flood of cheap Chinese imports. We will have a special report.

And we wish you a very pleasant weekend. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" begins right now -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, thanks very much. Have a great weekend.

END

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Aired May 20, 2005 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Saddam Hussein on camera. A British tabloid publishing unauthorized pictures of the former dictator in his underwear. The Bush administration again on the defensive.
And is the United Nations worthy of U.S. support? A powerful congressional committee says no unless the United Nations begins to reform itself.

Our top story tonight, science and politics on a collision course. After a major breakthrough in stem cell research, South Korean scientists say they've produced the first embryonic stem cells that could one day genetically match the cells of injured or sick patients. But that one day is still years and years away. The Korean scientists say their achievement is a significant step forward in efforts to develop new treatments for human beings suffering severe illness and disability.

At the same time, a British research team has produced the world's second cloned embryo. But President Bush today declared that he opposes using taxpayer money to expand embryonic stem cell research in this country.

White House Correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the Oval Office, a warning to lawmakers trying to lift the president's limits on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The use of federal money, taxpayers' money, to promote science which destroys life in order to save life is -- I'm against that. And therefore, if the bill does that, I will veto it.

BASH: Four-plus years in office, the president's never used his veto pen. But Mr. Bush made the rare veto threat to blunt growing support for a bill the House will take up next week with nearly four dozen Republican co-sponsors.

REP. MICHAEL CASTLE (R), DELAWARE: We're essentially saying that there are excess embryos in the in vitro fertilization process and that we should be able to use those excess embryos to harvest stem cells.

BUSH: ... creating ongoing opportunities for research. BASH: In 2001, Mr. Bush decided to allow federal funding for embryonic stem cell research for the first time, but strictly limited it to existing lines. Scientists complained many of those lines were contaminated and unusable in their search to cure diseases like Alzheimer's.

Laura Bush, the daughter of an Alzheimer's victim, speaks out in support of her husband's position, but Nancy Reagan is among Mr. Bush's high opponents on the issue. And a Republican group's TV ad argues current policy stymies medical research.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Call Congress.

BASH: The president hopes to rally conservatives to his side with the argument, destroying embryos is tantamount to destroying life. But a nationwide GOP poll just last month found six in 10 Republicans support embryonic stem cell research. Only 40 percent described it as a right-to-life issue, while 54 percent say they considered it a scientific issue.

Supporters of lifting limits concede they do not have enough votes to override a veto. But Bush allies still call his early active role critical.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: An unambiguous statement by the president of the United States is of incalculable value to those of us who would like to defend the sanctity of life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The president also raised concerns about a report scientists in South Korea have succeed in cloning embryos. The White House says cloning for the sole purpose of research is another step on a slippery slope the president fears will put science ahead of respect for human life and dignity -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much.

The president may not find that support for his position on stem cell research is shared by his own party. A recent opinion poll shows a split among Republicans by a margin of 55 to 38 percent. All Republicans surveyed say they favored that research. But 55 percent of pro-life Republicans do support the president's position on stem cell research.

President Bush is also out of step with some Republican members of Congress who are demanding reform of the United Nations. The House International Relations Committee is now threatening to cut U.S. support of the United Nations.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some members of Congress are saying to the United Nations, shape up or lose your funding. House International Relations Committee chairman Henry Hyde has drafted the United Nations Reform Act of 2005. It threatens to withhold half the dues the United States pays to the United Nations if certain reforms are not carried out.

REP. HENRY HYDE (R), CHAIRMAN, INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: No observer, be they passionate supporter or dismissive critic, can pretend that the current structure and operations of the U.N. represent an acceptable standard. Even the U.N. itself has acknowledged the need for reform.

PILGRIM: The United States is the largest financial supporter of the U.N. and pays about a quarter of the general yearly budget of $2 billion. But scandals have been rampant.

The United Nations oil-for-food program became a firestorm of accusation over millions of dollars of U.N. funding unaccounted for. The Congo peacekeeping scandal called into question accountability and the ability of the organization to monitor itself.

NILE GARDINER, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: This reform bill is long overdue. And the United Nations, an organization which does need to be fundamentally reformed if it is to remain relevant in the 21st century. So this is a very welcomed development aimed at putting tremendous pressure on the U.N. to do the right thing, and to clean up its act.

PILGRIM: The United Nations spokesperson today condemned the threat of withholding funds to press for reform.

STEPHANE DUJARRIC, U.N. SPOKESMAN: The secretary-general's position on the use of withholding as a tool for reform is pretty clear. It's -- he feels its counterproductive.

PILGRIM: A statement that will not stop members of Congress from pressing forward with the demand for reform.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now, the U.N. Reform Act basically is trying to cancel the blank check the United Nations has enjoyed for so long. It wants some programs moved out of the U.N. budget, and it wants to make some programs a voluntary contribution, Lou, so that member countries can look at the books and decide whether they actually would like to fund the program.

DOBBS: And this initiative under way and already with a lot of support. Kitty, thank you. Kitty Pilgrim.

In the Senate tonight, Senator John Cornyn of Texas has set the date and time for a showdown on the future of the filibuster. Senator Cornyn filed the cloture motion to end the debater nomination of Priscilla Owen to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

Joe Johns reports from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist giving a medical school commencement address in South Carolina did not mention a word about the battle over judges in Washington.

SEN. BILL FRIST, (R-TN) MAJORITY LEADER: Congratulations to the class of 2005.

JOHNS: Back in the Senate, the moment of the day came without much fanfare.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN, (R) TEXAS: Without objection on behalf of the majority leader, I send a cloture motion to the desk.

JOHNS: Senator John Cornyn of Texas filed a motion to cut off the debate on the nomination of Priscilla Owen from his own state, a formality that moves the Senate one step closer to a showdown early next week over the ability of Democrats to block nominees they oppose.

SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: The Senate's tradition and its rules protect debate and guarantee that we can't be trampled upon.

SEN. JOHNNY ISAKSON, (R) GEORGIA: To deny someone the opportunity to which they have been nominated by the president of the United States, elected by a majority of the electors in the last election, is not right.

JOHNS: Meanwhile, face-to-face negotiations to end the impasse were put on hold until Monday, though, talks were expected it continue over the weekend by phone. The idea was to get six Democrats and six Republicans to agree to allow certain judges through while others could continue to be blocked. But the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter, who has sat in on the negotiations, says he doesn't want the decision to be made by a small group of senators.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER, (R-PA) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: I cannot subscribe to the idea that a group of 12, however they may ultimately be constituted, ought to make the decision on who is to be confirmed and who ought not to be confirmed. It is my view that ultimately that is really a decision for this body.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: One of the big concerns is what happens going forward, including on Supreme Court nominees. Senators Byrd and Warner are working on a proposal to try to advise the president on that. Byrd has suggested the Senate Judiciary Committee might be able to put together a list of potential nominees that the president could accept or reject.

One other note. We're told there is definitely now an extreme possibility that the Senate of the United States will debate all night long on Monday.

Back to you, Lou.

DOBBS: Joe, Senators Specter makes great sense. In a fact, this issue is now joined. And someone's nomination would be denied a full vote even if there is a compromise, and that would be against the spirit of the Senate and the spirit of majority rule.

There seems to be a collision course that is all but inevitable here, right?

JOHNS: Well, certainly that's true. It does seem like a collision course.

On the other hand, Lou, I have to say, there is a pretty healthy number of senators who are very concerned about the institution, concerned about what could happen if the filibuster is ruled out of order in this particular case. They're afraid it would have broader implications on the United States Senate going down the road. And that is one of the keys to why people are still talking -- Lou.

DOBBS: By a vast majority, those expressing that concern, though, are Democrats, are they not, Joe?

JOHNS: Some Democrats. Also, some Republicans are very concerned about the effects on the Senate in the long term. Still, it's very hard to say whether they'll ever get an agreement.

DOBBS: Joe Johns, as always, thank you.

Coming up next here, protesters on the streets of London, Havana and Iraq. In London, radical Islamists calling for bombing the United States. In Havana, protesters calling for the ouster of Fidel Castro. In southern Iraq, protesters calling for the removal of the United States from Iraq.

And Saddam Hussein exposed. Why is the Pentagon so upset about a British tabloid's publication of photographs of the former dictator?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Hundreds of radical Islamists today staged a noisy protest outside of the U.S. embassy in London. The radical Islamist demonstrators called for the death of President Bush, the destruction of the White House, and a nuclear attack on Washington. British police made no arrests.

Walter Rodgers reports from London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down, down, USA!

CROWD: Down, down, USA!

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About 300 Muslims gathered outside the U.S. embassy in London showing a less than merciful face to political Islam. They called for the killing of Americans, the death of the president of the United States, the death of the British prime minister, the bombing of Britain and the unthinkable in the U.S. capital.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nuke, nuke, Washington!

CROWD: Nuke, nuke, Washington!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bomb, Bomb, Pentagon!

CROWD: Bomb, bomb, Pentagon!

RODGERS: Some of the militant Islamic rhetoric smacked of incitement to commit murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death to Tony Blair!

CROWD: Death to Tony Blair!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death to George Bush!

CROWD: Death to George Bush!

RODGERS: A British policeman said the language was offensive and unpleasant in the extreme. But they overlook that.

Also overlooked, the fact that more than a few of the young men in the crowd covered their faces. Technically a violation of British law, again, according to police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only language that we speak today is a language of jihad!

RODGERS: Ostensibly, these British Muslims are protesting the alleged desecration of their holy book, the Quran, at the American detention center at Guantanamo. That story now retracted by "Newsweek." Still, this former Guantanamo detainee made this accusation...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The soldier picked up the Quran and threw it on the floor.

RODGERS: Holding their Qurans high, they called for death and mayhem, praising the destruction of New York's twin towers. Saying, "The White House is next."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The desecration of the White House is to follow! George Bush, you will pay!

CROWD: George Bush, you will pay!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your blood! With your blood!

CROWD: With your blood! With your blood! RODGERS: This rally remarkable not so much for the size of the crowd, but for the ferocity and virulence of the things said. And before they broke up and went home, meditation. They all prayed.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: In southern Iraq, thousands of supporters of the radical Islamist leader Muqtada al-Sadr today protested against the United States as well. They demanded the immediate withdrawal of American troops from Iraq. These protesters also blasted Israel and called for reforms of the Iraqi police force.

No protests in Jordan, where first lady Laura Bush today arrived. She'll be in the Middle East on a five-day goodwill mission. The first lady will speak to the World Economic Forum tomorrow in Jordan. She will also visit Israel and Egypt.

Suzanne Malveaux reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first lady travels to the Middle East to promote democracy, women's rights and education reform. But as the U.S.'s ambassador of goodwill, she acknowledged en route in the Arab world she's got a tough message to sell.

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: We've had terrible happenings that have really, really hurt our image in the United States. And they're not -- they were very atypical.

MALVEAUX: Mrs. Bush singled out the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal and more recently, the deadly riots of the erroneous "Newsweek" report that U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay Prison had flushed the Quran down the toilet to rattle detainees. The first lady said "Newsweek," which has since retracted the story, was only partly to blame.

BUSH: In the United States, if there's a terrible report, people don't riot, kill other people. And, you know, you can't excuse what they did because of a mistake -- you know, you can't blame it all on "Newsweek." But at the same time, it was irresponsible. And that's -- it's too bad.

MALVEAUX: Despite the first lady's itinerary to hotspots in Jerusalem and the West Bank, Mrs. Bush dismissed any security concerns...

BUSH: I think we'll be -- all be safe.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Amman, Jordan.

(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: No goodwill mission for a British tabloid that today published photographs of Saddam Hussein. The photographs show Saddam Hussein in his underwear. The Pentagon particularly sensitive after the "Newsweek" report has begun an investigation to find the source of those pictures.

Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "The Sun" newspaper splashed the picture of the underwear-clad former dictator on its front page. The British tabloid claimed the photo, along with several others showing Saddam Hussein in captivity, were handed over by U.S. military sources who had said hope to deal a body blow to the resistance in Iraq. Instead, the unauthorized release dealt the U.S. military another public relation's nightmare by provoking outrage from many Iraqis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It is not acceptable to show a president in such way. It must respect the name of a president all over the world regardless of if he is a dictator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What we saw on TV is not right. Saddam Hussein is an Iraqi, and we are a civilized country.

MCINTYRE: In a statement, the U.S. military in Baghdad said the photos were taken in clear violation of DOD directives and possibly Geneva Convention guidelines, and expressed disappointment that someone responsible for the security, welfare and detention of Saddam would provide these photos for public release. Military sources tell CNN, based on the way Saddam looks and the backgrounds, the images appear to have been taken between January and April of 2004 and may have come from a security camera that monitors Saddam around the clock. The military says it's taking the unauthorized release very seriously.

The last thing the U.S. needs is a repeat of the violent demonstrations that followed an erroneous report that military investigators confirmed U.S. interrogators desecrated a Quran. "Newsweek" magazine retracted the story, and President Bush downplayed the idea that the Saddam pictures could spark similar protests.

BUSH: I don't think a photo inspires murderers. I think they're inspired by an ideology that is so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the western world to comprehend how they think.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The military says only a small number people have access to the super secure jail where Saddam Hussein is being held, and personal cameras are completely banned from the facility. That should narrow the number of suspects as the U.S. military promises what it calls an aggressive investigation -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.

Coming up next here, Iraq's new army. Right now, it's more of a problem than a solution. Still unable to fight the insurgency on its own. Even President Bush has his doubts. Our special report is next.

And in Castro's communist Cuba, anti-government protests are rare indeed. We'll show you why hundreds of dissidents were protesting today.

That story and more still ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: While the White House and Pentagon are apparently in arms over photos of Saddam Hussein, three American soldiers have been killed in Iraq in the past 24 hours. Two U.S. soldiers were killed in a drive-by shooting in central Baghdad. The third soldier died in a traffic accident north of the Iraqi capital.

Separately, a roadside bomb in Baghdad destroyed a U.S. truck. No word on casualties in that attack.

The death of the three Americans highlights the U.S. role in providing security for Iraq and fact that the Iraqi army units are still not ready to assume full responsibility. President Bush acknowledged as much today. President Bush was reacting to reports that only a handful of the Iraqi army's units are combat-ready.

Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. troops and helicopters rush in to help another group of Iraqi security forces still struggling to fight the insurgency. President Bush is offering a sober assessment of Iraqi capabilities.

BUSH: Some units are in really good shape, and other units need additional work.

STARR: Iraqi police forces are lagging behind in their ability to fight insurgents. General John Abizaid, head of the Central Command, says the culture is a unique problem in Iraq.

"Police tend to operate as individuals and the individuals become more susceptible to corruption and intimidation," Abizaid told reporters. "The police," he says, "lack sophistication, a strong chain of command, and cohesive leadership. Iraqi police forces are crucial to fight in the insurgency on city streets."

There are 60,000 Iraqi police that the U.S. considers trained and equipped but not necessarily operationally ready. And until they are, U.S. troops are not likely to come home in large numbers. 135,000 U.S. troops are in Iraq now. President Bush cannot set a timetable yet for when those troops can leave. BUSH: And the definition of that will be how soon our commanders on the ground think that the Iraqis are able to take the fight to the enemy.

STARR: And top commanders are making no predictions when that day might come.

LT. GEN. JOHN VINES, COMMANDER, GROUND FORCES IN IRAQ: Their forces are doing a great job in some cases. In some cases they're not. We're continuing to work with them. And so, as I said, there's been enormous progress that has been made.

STARR (on camera): General Abizaid acknowledges it is still U.S. troops leading the fight against the insurgency. The goal is to get Iraqi forces capable of taking over that mission so U.S. troops can come home.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And the war in Iraq has increased pressure on the Army to recruit more soldiers. And as a result, some recruiters have used improper recruiting methods.

Today, more than 7,000 Army recruiters stepped down. They stopped work to review ethics and the rules governing their recruitment.

The stand-down comes at a difficult time for the Army. The Army has missed its recruiting goals for three straight months. As a result, the Army has raised incentives for new recruits. It's also offered a new 15-month term of enlistment for the active duty force.

Coming up next here, hundreds of Cubans gather in Havana to demand the end of the Castro regime. How the White House helped organize the first protest of its kind in the history of the regime, it's 46-year history.

And then, a group of thousands of African-American farmers blasting Mexican President Vicente Fox for his offensive comments. The leader of the National Association of Black Farmers will be our guest to tell us why President Fox must do something to rectify his comments. That's coming up next.

And in "Heroes," the almost unbelievable story of 1st Sergeant Brad Castle (ph), how he managed to save himself and another Marine looking down the barrel of an AK-47. He's next in "Heroes."

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In Cuba tonight, the boldest act of public protest against Fidel Castro in the 46 years he's ruled that country. Two hundred dissidents in the Cuban capital calling for an end to his regime. Lucia Newman reports from Havana.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the backyard of a working-class Havana neighborhood, an event few believed Cuba's communist government would tolerate, got under way -- the assembly to promote a civil society in Cuba.

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE, DISSIDENT ORGANIZER (through translator): We are more convinced than ever that our country belongs to all of us and that we are here to open the door.

NEWMAN: Delegates responded chanting "freedom, freedom." Opponents of Cuba's communist government were euphoric.

VLADIMIRO ROCA, DISSIDENT (through translator): Because we are exercising our right that our people have been denied for 46 years, the right to gather peacefully, to discuss our country's problems and to seek solutions.

NEWMAN: Among a handful of foreign diplomats was Washington's man in Havana.

JAMES CASON, CHIEF U.S. EXECUTIVE OFFICER: For us, this is a unique example of grassroots democracy. In spite of all the obstacles, I see that there must be at least 120, 150 people here, so.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, many future leaders of a free Cuba...

NEWMAN: After playing a taped message of encouragement from President George Bush, the two-day assembly began discussing ways to transition Cuba towards democracy.

(on camera): Dozens of would-be foreign observers were refused visas to come to Cuba, while, on the eve of the assembly, authorities expelled or refused entry at the airport to at least four European deputies and an unknown number of others who wanted to attend.

(voice-over): But there were many other empty seats, underscoring the deep and bitter divisions in Cuba's outlawed dissident movement.

Prominent opposition leader Oswaldo Paya was among those who refused to attend, calling the meeting a fraud.

OSWALDO PAYA, OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): We have no confidence in its leaders, who've manipulated and maneuvered against our civic initiate for years.

NEWMAN: The Castro government calls them all mercenaries in the pay of the USA. Others dismiss them as hard-liners. But what few dispute is that this opposition gathering is unprecedented.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Havana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Our guest tonight is among the many who are outraged by comments by Mexican President Vicente Fox. John Boyd is the founder and the president of the National Black Farmers Association. It's a group with more than 66,000 members nationwide. He joins us tonight from Richmond, Virginia. John, good to have you with us.

JOHN BOYD, PRES., NATIONAL BLACK FARMERS ASSOCIATION: Lou, thank you very much for having us tonight.

DOBBS: Reverend Al Sharpton will be meeting with President Fox. Reverend Jesse Jackson did do so. And at the same time, seemed to basically absolve Fox of the comments that he made. Those comments being that Mexican illegal aliens in this country doing work that quote/unquote, "black Americans won't do." What is your reaction to the outcome of that meeting and to Jesse Jackson's position?

BOYD: Well, basically, Lou, we're outraged by his comments, because we feel as though that he's relating to blacks as the last race, so to speak. And President Fox hasn't came up with any kind of resolutions. And I certainly commend Reverend Jackson for meeting with President Fox, but he has to do more than just acknowledge his comments. He has to come up with some kind of solution as to how he is going to begin to work with blacks in this country.

And we've been pressing him, Lou, to pursue contracting efforts with black farmers here in the U.S., and we've written several letters. We haven't heard anything from President Fox. And he, again, we want to be real clear, that he has to do more than just acknowledge his statements. He has to come up with a plan of action as to how he is going to work with African-Americans here in this country.

DOBBS: First, should he apologize outright?

BOYD: Oh, no question. That's the least that he can do. He can make a statement, apologizing to African-Americans. And you know, blacks came to this country, Lou, as slaves. And you know, worked in the fields for scot-free, and opened the doors for all immigrants to work here in this country. And to have him degrade us that way, or not apologize, is definitely a slap in the face.

DOBBS: It's really also, isn't it, a slap in the face of all who work in agriculture, who work jobs that are tough, long hours, low pay. My reaction to it, frankly, aside from the racial insult that was uttered by the president, it seems to me to demean work itself. How do you react to that?

BOYD: No question. And here again, anybody who works in the fields and does that kind of hard labor, agriculture is tough. It's tough whether you're black, white, blue, green or brown. But having him degrade you in such a way, I think, you know, here again was a low blow. And he's going to have to come up with a strategy here to mend the fences, and I haven't heard that yet.

DOBBS: Let's go to your point. And that being, that he has to come up with a way -- and you said specifically, John, to work with black farmers in this country. What would you like...

BOYD: That's correct.

DOBBS: ... to hear from him?

BOYD: We would like to hear about contracting for us to provide food to the Mexican government. I am sure that they are purchasing food from other countries around the world, and there's crops that we grow here that are not grown in Mexico. And we would like to begin that kind of -- those type of specific dollar -- of excuse me, to -- for us to deliver commodities to the Mexican government.

And I think that that will show a commitment from President Fox that he's willing to work with blacks, and other than just make statements about them, but really sincerely want to work with blacks here in this country.

DOBBS: All right. As you well know, most estimates, and they're only that, estimates, that half the agricultural workers in this country are illegal.

BOYD: Right.

DOBBS: Would you like to see Vicente Fox also step forward and shut down illegal immigration, or do you see it as critical that this labor continue?

BOYD: Well, I think that's a two-sided edge. Number one, there's bills floating around on Capitol Hill to make these individuals permanent residents while they're working. And Lou, we've had a tough time as to working with the United States Department of Agriculture, and working here in our U.S. government. And there's no bills floating around on Capitol Hill to help black farmers stay on their farm...

DOBBS: Including the ag jobs bill.

BOYD: (INAUDIBLE) for some time. Including -- including -- including that ag jobs bill. That's correct. So we would like to see more of a commitment from our own country, to look at people who helped build this country right here in the U.S. first, before we commit to helping other races here in the country as to -- as to become citizens.

The voting rights bill expires next year for blacks in this country. So we would like to see more of a commitment from our own federal government, to work with African-American farmers right here in this country.

DOBBS: John Boyd, we thank you for being here.

BOYD: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Lou.

DOBBS: Our quote of the day is from Los Angeles Mayor-Elect Antonio Villaraigosa, on civilians patrolling our borders, referencing the Minutemen Project. He said: "We need our Department of Homeland Security, which patrols the border, to address the issue of security. We have an old saying from the days of the wild, wild West: Leave your gun outside of the city limits. It doesn't make any sense for people to take the law into their own hands."

Well, Mr. Mayor-Elect, that's an interesting thing. I have studied the West, its literature, and I have never heard the expression "leave your gun outside the city." I also would point out to you that the Minuteman Project was certainly outside the city limits in Arizona, and I would also point out to you that they were never once outside the law.

Alarming news tonight from U.S. Immigration and Customs, about illegal aliens with access to sensitive and critical locations in this country. ICE today announced the arrest of 60 illegal aliens, all working at key sites. Those sites including seven petrochemical refineries, three power plants, and a national air cargo facility. The arrests took place in California, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas. Some of the illegal aliens could face federal charges for violations such as re-entering the United States after their deportation, and use of fraudulent documents to gain employment.

Turning now to our poll question. As we've reported earlier, President Bush said today he's against using taxpayer money to expand embryonic stem cell research in this country. We ask your opinion. Should your tax dollars fund stem cell research? Yes or no? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.

Coming right up, tonight's "Newsmakers," three of the country's best political journalists. Also, "Heroes." One Marine's harrowing story of struggle, survival and heroism. How his bravery saved the lives of his fellow Marines. That story is next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In "Heroes" tonight, a Marine who was face-to-face with heavily-armed insurgent forces in Iraq. First Sergeant Brad Kasal nearly lost his life trying to save his fellow wounded Marines during a bloody battle with insurgents in Fallujah. But modestly, he says he's not the real hero in this story. Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE; That catwalk that was over the living room went 360 degrees around.

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First Sergeant Brad Kasal listens as his buddy Lieutenant Grigg (ph) fills in details about what happened in that day in Fallujah last November, the day he was shot over and over again and nearly lost his life.

Two young Marines listened intently as well. They saved Kasal's life by carrying him to safety.

LANCE CPL. CHRISTOPHER MARQUEZ, U.S. MARINE CORPS: 1st Sergeant Kasal was a tough Marine. He got shot 7 times, took like over 40 pieces of shrapnel in him and he was still, like, able to do his job and get his job done.

WIAN: Five days into the Fallujah offensive, Kasal found himself literally looking down the barrel of an AK-47 as he tried to rescue wounded Marines in a house.

FIRST SGT. BRAD KASAL, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I just took my M-16 and I stuck it over his AK. And put it right in between his arms and right up against his chest. And my put my barrel and started pulling trigger. And I pulled it eight, nine, maybe 10 times before he finally went down to the ground.

WIAN: Kasal turned, yelling for cover. As he did, a barrage of automatic gunfire.

KASAL: I remember several thugs just hitting my leg. And several rounds hitting the wall all around me. And after about the fourth or fifth thud that hit my leg, my leg just collapsed out from underneath me. And I fell to the ground.

WIAN: Behind him, another Marine had been hit.

KASAL: I crawled back out into the line of fire. And I remember as soon as I did that, rounds just started hitting all around me again. And I grabbed Nicol's (ph) sleeve and pulled him down and started dragging him out of the line of fire.

WIAN: Kasal took another bullet in the back side. He was losing blood quickly, but still managed to get a tourniquet onto the wounded Marine beside him. Then Kasal saw a grenade.

KASAL: I rolled over on top of him, covered him up. And then the grenade went off.

WIAN: Kasal was peppered with shrapnel, but both Marines survived the blast. Kasal has been recommended for a medal for bravery but says the young Marines who rescued him are the real heroes.

Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Sergeant Kasal still faces months of surgery and physical therapy before he'll be able to walk again. He's been a Marine for more than two decades and says his goal in life is to return to the work he loves, in the U.S. Marine Corps. We wish him well.

Still ahead, a critical week in American politics from the controversial debate over filibusters to controversial comments from Mexico's president. We'll be talking about all of that and more with three of the nation's leading political journalists. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining me now from Washington, Karen Tumulty, "Time" magazine, Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times," here in New York, Jim Ellis, "Businessweek" magazine. Thanks for being here.

Karen, let's start. Filibusters: the nation, you would believe looking at the political accounts from the parties and from the media is at risk based on whatever happens. Is it?

KAREN TUMULTY, TIME: Well, most of the nation could care less about this issue. This is not on pretty much anybody's list of priorities outside the activists in both parties. But it is possible that this vote, if it happens, and this is a bipartisan group of senators who are trying to stave it off, to essentially pull their colleagues away from the brink, it could bring about some changes in the culture of the Senate.

DOBBS: Does it need changing, this culture of the Senate?

TUMULTY: Well, I got to tell you, I was watching some of this debate there this week. And in terms of -- something they used to call the world's greatest deliberative body, things are sort of skidding along the bottom now. People are invoking Hitler and Star Wars characters and who knows what else in their name-calling.

DOBBS: It's hardly an elevated discourse that the point.

Ron Brownstein, Mexican President Vicente Fox saying he can't quite apologize for referring to his illegal aliens in this country as doing work that quote/unquote only blacks -- American blacks would do.

RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Wouldn't do, yes.

DOBBS: Where are we headed with this mess?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think, obviously it was an extremely unfortunate and insensitive comment. He's tried to backtrack. But go beyond, kind of the inflammatory nature of the words, the underlying argument. It's one that you hear quite a bit in this debate. There's the point of view, President Bush has reflected it, that illegal immigrants are doing work that Americans won't do.

It might be more accurate to say that in many cases illegal immigrants are doing work that Americans won't do at the wages they're being offered to do them.

DOBBS: There you go!

BROWNSTEIN: So, in some ways what Fox, the door that Fox opens here sort of points to the question of, before you look at things like the guest worker program, do you have to look at raising the minimum wage? It's -- if you sort of take two steps from where he is, I think that's the question it'll lead you to.

DOBBS: Of course, you wonder, Ron, if people want to break the law of hiring illegal aliens, if people won't enforce the law by permitting three million illegal aliens to cross the border, who's going to worry about a little thing like a minimum wage?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, you know, enforcement in all of this is tough. And in fact, Lou, that's really at the core of the illegal immigrant debate, if think, whether there is an enforcement solution or not. And I think that is really the bright line between those who are skeptical of anything like what President Bush or John McCain and Ted Kennedy want to do and those who believe that ultimately that we're never going to get control of the borders unless we have some sort of regularized flow.

DOBBS: You can't do anything, you can't say this country has national security, you can't say this country has any kind of immigration law if you don't control the borders, condition precedent, case closed. There's no other way.

Jim Ellis, let me ask you this. Stem cell research -- the president says he's going to veto it, yet his own party says they want it.

JIM ELLIS, BUSINESSWEEK: He's in a very difficult position, simply because so many people at the core of his base really still question for religious reasons -- and also do think that the president himself might have some personal issues with it -- the problem is that it holds a real medical sort of possibility of real breakthrough science there, and the United States, by not sort of effectively funding it, is basically going to hand over the next sort of medical leap to other parts of world. I mean, there are some people, like the state of California, that are doing private funding. And a lot of rich investors are getting into it, but the government really has to come forward on this. I don't there is any choice.

DOBBS: We're going to be back with Karen Tumulty, Ron Brownstein and Jim Ellis in just one second. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Ron Brownstein, I want to start with you on this, and we are going to put up a quote from David Brooks, "New York Times," talking about the "Newsweek" controversy, in which the president, the Pentagon, Donald Rumsfeld blamed ""Newsweek for the deaths in Afghanistan, reacting to the claims of desecration of the Koran. Brooks wrote -- "We're in the middle of an ideological war against people who want to destroy us, and what have the most powerful people on earth become? Whining media bashers. They're attacking 'Newsweek' while bending over backwards to show sensitivity to the Afghans who just went on a murderous rampage."

What say you?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I say a couple of things about this. First of all, it's obviously, it's always unfortunate when the press gets something wrong, especially on a big and sensitive story like this. On the other hand, Lou, what "Newsweek" retracted was the claim that the Pentagon had confirmed...

DOBBS: Yeah, Ron, I am sorry. I didn't make my question clear. What do you think of what David Brooks said?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think that, you know, I think David Brooks is right. I mean, you know, the idea that those rioting in Afghanistan or London needed "Newsweek" to convince them to go out in the streets is silly. I mean, we are dealing with an ideology that is fundamentally opposed to us and our position in the world and our influence in the Middle East. And with or without this, they will find a provocation.

But I think it's important to understand that what "Newsweek" retracted and what it didn't. I mean, there are still allegations of this sort out there, and I am not sure this is going to be the last word.

DOBBS: Yeah, well, it's not the last word, and what I'm really interested in is the way the media just started doing a lot of navel gazing.

Karen, let me ask you this, Social Security, the president's chief adviser on indexing says, move away from private accounts. Has the nation, has Congress, has this administration yet had a belly full of Social Security reform, as the president is styling it?

TUMULTY: They haven't. And this whole saga is starting to have the feel of a Monty Python movie, where it's, you know...

DOBBS: A bad Monty Python.

TUMULTY: Right. But it's dead, and nobody wants to admit that it's dead. I mean, every...

DOBBS: Have we upset Ron there, Karen?

BROWNSTEIN: I'm not dead yet.

DOBBS: Well, let me see how we can upset everybody, because I thought one of the most colorful, interesting, well-written columns of the week was Ann Coulter, in which she wrote these words amongst others in a column entitled "Newsweek Dissembled, Muslims Dismembered," if we can put that up, Jim Ellis, I am just dying to ask you this. "Bumper sticker idea for a liberal," she wrote -- that's not right one. If we can go to "Newsweek Dissembled" -- there it is.

"Bumper sticker idea for liberals," she wrote. "News magazines don't kill people, Muslims do." What do you think, Jim?

ELLIS: Well, I don't think it would run in "Businessweek." But Ms. Coulter has a way with words, as we have seen in the past. I think that -- I understand why so many people are upset about this, because in the Middle East, this is a very severe task we have gotten ourselves into. But the problem is that here in the U.S., we are at war with the Middle East. We are at war, I should say, in Iraq.

DOBBS: With radical Islamists.

ELLIS: Radical Islam (INAUDIBLE) that many people in our culture need to basically end their lives, and so therefore we have to realize that...

DOBBS: They're killing people.

ELLIS: Right.

DOBBS: People here are reacting to desecration -- claims, unsubstantiated claims of desecrating the Koran. I would just have one idea for Ann Coulter, people are getting upset there with the conservatives. Bumper sticker idea for liberals and conservatives, and it will work there. Nice idea.

Let me turn quickly to Ken and Daria Dolan. "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED" tomorrow, 10:00 a.m. right here on the world's most important network.

KEN DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED: That is correct, and thank you for the cup. I appreciate it very much.

DOBBS: And what are you going to do for us tomorrow, Daria?

DARIA DOLAN, CO-HOST, "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED": We...

DOBBS: Because we know Ken probably will have limited contributions.

K. DOLAN: (INAUDIBLE) participation.

D. DOLAN: Well, you know, we're going to take a look at the broken sectors of the economy as they affect us. And that is, trains, planes and automobiles.

DOBBS: Well, those are three hard-hitting areas.

K. DOLAN: Yeah, we talk a bit -- will talk a little bit about the merger as you talked about, Lou. I went down and talked about Amtrak in Washington -- talk about depressing -- and not far behind that, of course, is the state of the auto industry. And it's not so much from a newsstand point, but rather what would we do as investors and people and our plans?

DOBBS: So tomorrow, the Dolans on "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," 10:00 a.m. CNN, are going to call for nationalizing the airline industry, changing trade policy so that it won't be a giveaway to foreign car makers, and...

K. DOLAN: And stop wasting money on Amtrak.

D. DOLAN: No, no, no, no.

K. DOLAN: No?

D. DOLAN: You know, in the cases of Amtrak and the airlines, remember the movie "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?"

DOBBS: I do.

D. DOLAN: Well.

DOBBS: Come on, I mean, I'd love... (CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Look, my favorites are trains. So leave the trains alone.

D. DOLAN: All right. America West and U.S. Air. The Titanic and Lusitania joined together will go down faster.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: You don't like them. You haven't had good experiences with those airlines, huh?

D. DOLAN: No, no, no.

DOBBS: Ah.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: You are going to try to (INAUDIBLE), right?

K. DOLAN: Yeah, I talked to people in Washington, but the people I talked with, Lou, said let's not talk about profitability. We can't do that. It's been around since 1970. Thirty-five years, we haven't done it yet. Let's talk about public service and its role in America's national security.

DOBBS: The airline industry hasn't made a dime since they got started.

K. DOLAN: Since Kitty Hawk.

DOBBS: You got it.

K. DOLAN: Want to talk about autos? No, I don't. Tomorrow morning.

D. DOLAN: Yeah.

K. DOLAN: OK.

DOBBS: Thanks. We'll look forward to it.

K. DOLAN: Thanks, Lou.

D. DOLAN: Thanks.

DOBBS: Ken, Daria, thanks. "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," 10:00 a.m., tomorrow right here on CNN.

Now, the results of our poll. The question -- should your tax dollars fund stem cell research? Eighty-three percent of you say, you bet. Seventeen percent of you say no.

Thank you for voting and thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here Monday. Reverend Al Sharpton will be our guest, live from Mexico City, after his face-to-face meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox. Also, the sponsors of legislation that would allow federal funding for stem cell research. We'll be here to debate the legislation.

Labor leaders fighting to stop the flood of cheap Chinese imports. We will have a special report.

And we wish you a very pleasant weekend. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" begins right now -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, thanks very much. Have a great weekend.

END

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