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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Hunt for Osama bin Laden; Israel Sells Weapons to China; Interview With Bill Moyers
Aired June 20, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, the hunt for Osama bin Laden. CIA Director Porter Goss says he has an excellent idea where bin Laden is, so why isn't he going after bin Laden?
Also tonight, why is Israel selling weapons to China, one of this country's most dangerous potential enemies? We'll have a special report.
And a conversation tonight with the legendary journalist Bill Moyers, who says the American dream is under assault from globalization, inept politicians and overwhelming corporate interests.
Our top story tonight is a critical vote in the U.S. Senate on the nomination of John Bolton to become U.S. ambassador at the United Nations. Senators are preparing now to vote on whether to end the debate on Bolton's nomination and to move toward confirmation.
Joe Johns on Capitol Hill with the report -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Senate expected to try it once again here on Capitol Hill. No indication right now that they will succeed the second time around. Still likely to come up two or three votes short.
Democratic senators Joe Biden and Chris Dodd continue to seek information the administration does not want to give up, including secret intercepts Bolton requested. The question is whether Bolton wanted the information for purposes of bureaucratic infighting.
Let's listen to what Senator Joe Biden had to say earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: It has been alleged, as I said, that Mr. Bolton has been spying on rivals within the bureaucracy, both inferior and superior to him. While I doubt this, as I've said publicly before, we have a duty to be sure that he did not misuse this data.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS: Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist right now on the floor as the debate wraps up. Republicans who support the nomination say it's political gamesmanship on the part of the opponents that every time the administration answers a question about Bolton, opponents tend to ask more questions. Senator George Allen of Virginia talking about that also on the floor today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: Every time there is something answered, every time this gets ready for a vote, there's always a new allegation, a new request, something else to delay a vote on this nomination. Colleagues, obstruction in this case, as in many others, but particularly this one, has gone on for too long.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS: Supporters of Bolton say he is the kind of person who is needed to bring reform to the United Nations. A statement coming out today from Senator John Cornyn of Texas, saying, in part, he's exactly the kind of person we need to shake up the United nations and make it an international organization that is effective, because right now, he says, the United Nations is in shambles.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Joe, just to be clear, we have an upcoming cloture vote to end debate. What is the -- give us, if you will, the timetable here.
JOHNS: We're expecting it probably in the next 15 to 20 minutes. They only had an hour to debate, and at that time they took the vote. The vote is about 15, 20 minutes long -- Lou.
DOBBS: Joe Johns from Capitol Hill. Thank you. We'll be checking in with you as these proceedings move forward over the next 15 to 20 minutes, and perhaps into the evening.
President Bush today made a new appeal to Democrats to allow that vote on Bolton's confirmation. But the president did not answer a question on whether he might bypass the Senate and appoint Bolton in the July 4th recess if that were necessary.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from the White House -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, there are four options that the White House has. Essentially, senior administration officials say the first one, withdrawing the Bolton nomination, that is not going to happen. They said President Bush is going to stick by Bolton to the very end.
The second one, of course, would be a compromise somehow in providing this information. A Republican source saying that the chief of staff, Andy Card, did reach out to Senator Joe Biden earlier today behind closed doors to try to provide some more information.
They're not telling the nature of what that information is. That compromise, or negotiations, really didn't amount to much. They say that he asked for further information, that he moved the goal post even further. The third option, of course, is doing what they have been doing, and that is to continue to twist arms and negotiate, or try to force the issue, or just wait it out. As you know, in the past, President Bush has been in touch with Senator Voinovich, Vice President Dick Cheney, with Senator Chuck Hagel, so they may continue that route.
And then finally, of course, this is the one the president did not sign off on. He was asked specifically about this option. White House aides do have -- do say that it is a possibility, and that is a congressional recess appointment. Perhaps the president deciding to go ahead in the July 4th congressional recess or the August month-long recess and decide to put Bolton in that position. He would be allowed to hold that post at least until January 2007.
Again, the White House holding out on that particular option, not committing to it, but again, Lou, saying that that is a very real possibility -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne Malveaux from the White House. Thank you.
President Bush today declared that he supports a strong Europe. He didn't define what "strong" in this case means. But Europe now, at least, is certainly finding strength not in unity.
The European Union, in fact, is deeply split over such issues as its budget and constitution. Close U.S. allies such as Britain are pushing for reform, but old Europe, led by France and Germany, refuse to support change.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the European summit this weekend, mock armies reenacted the 1815 Battle of Waterloo. Some say the outlook of Europe is mired in the past rather than the future. British Prime Minister Tony Blair today said economic policies of Europe are shortsighted and not looking ahead to the changing global economy.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Europe faces an immense global competitive challenge quite apart from the established economies of America and Japan. The rise of China, India and the other Asian economies is creating a wholly new economic environment.
PILGRIM: France and Germany have unemployment rates of around 11 percent, burdened with benefits and massive subsidies to their populations. And Europeans are fighting to keep it that way. A vote on a new constitution for all of Europe was defeated in France and the Netherlands on the worry that labor privileges would erode if the borders between the countries were relaxed.
Britain's foreign secretary, Jack Straw, called it the worst crisis he's ever seen in Europe. Foreign policy experts agree, saying a weak, selfish and introspective Europe does the world no good. DANIELLE PLETKA, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: We need to recognize that a Europe preoccupied with its own bureaucratic problems and with its own integration is a Europe that isn't part of the multilateral exercises we need. It's not a strong part of the war on terror. It's not going to be a strong part of NATO. And that's a bad thing for the United States.
PILGRIM: President Bush met with European Union leaders trying to rally European support on Iraq and other global issues. Europe's current malaise clearly the subtext of the meeting.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My message to these leaders and these friends is that we want Europe strong so we can work together to achieve important objectives and important goals.
PILGRIM: Now, this European summit was a dress rehearsal for the G8 meetings the first week in July. The challenge by Prime Minister Blair clearly came from exasperation with Europe, an attempt to get European politicians out of the past and willing participants in building the future -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
Well, several major European countries are still refusing to send troops to Iraq despite the escalating insurgent violence. An American soldier today was killed in northern Iraq. Nearly 40 Iraqis were killed in other attacks.
Jennifer Eccleston reports from Baghdad.
JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After a weekend marked by violence, the attacks continued this day. A suicide car bomb exploded outside of a checkpoint on the road to Baghdad's airport, killing one person and wounding several others. And earlier this morning, five police and security forces were killed when a car bomb exploded near their Baghdad police station.
It appeared that it was a coordinated attack. The insurgents fired on police. When security forces were called in for backup, a bomb was detonated. Some 15 security forces were also wounded.
Also, in the northern Kurdish city of Erbil, a suicide bomber killed 12 people in an attack on a group of traffic police officers who were gathered for their morning roll call. The attacker was dressed as a policeman. More than 100 of them were wounded.
This, of course, follows yesterday's deadly attack on a Baghdad restaurant popular with police. A suicide bomber blew him self up during the busy lunchtime period, killing 23 people and wounding seven others. This happened just 300 yards from the Green Zone, the home to the U.S. military and the transitional Iraqi government. And finally today, the Iraqi government announced an offer of a $10 million reward for the capture of the close Saddam Hussein aide general Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri. He's the former deputy commander of the Iraqi armed forces, the man many people believe is directly involved in orchestrating much of the home-grown violence, the home- grown insurgency here in Iraq.
Jennifer Eccleston, CNN, Baghdad.
DOBBS: Coming up here next, a shocking security breach at one of this country's nuclear weapons plants. We'll have a special report on how undocumented workers found their way to the heart of the facility.
And how local and national lawmakers are considering top new laws that would make banks and other financial institutions liable for personal data theft. Those institutions think you should be paying for that liability.
Stay with us.
DOBBS: A jury in Mississippi has begun deliberating the fate of an 80-year-old former member of the Ku Klux Klan. Edgar Ray Killen is on trial for the 1964 murders of three civil rights workers.
During his trial, the prosecution accused the former preacher of organizing the murders. The defense said Killen may have been associated with the Klan but was not guilty. In a 1967 federal trial, an all white jury deadlocked 11-1 in favor of convicting Killen, but one juror said she could not vote to convict a preacher.
In Seattle today, police shot and killed a man who was making threats at a federal courthouse. Police said the man was armed with a World War II-era hand grenade. He was also wearing a backpack.
Hundreds of people evacuated the building after officials declared a lockdown. After police shot the man, a bomb squad tested the backpack for explosives and found none. No one else was injured.
Tonight, a shocking breach of security at one of our nation's nuclear weapons plants. The Energy Department says it discovered more than a dozen illegal aliens working for a construction firm at Y-12 Plant in Tennessee.
Jeanne Meserve has the report from Washington -- Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Y- 12 site at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, produces nuclear weapons components, and enriched uranium is stored there. In fact, it's been called the Fort Knox of uranium. But that nickname, it turns out, may no longer apply.
The Energy Department inspector general found that in 2004, 16 illegal aliens were employed by subcontractors doing construction work at Y-12. The workers were using fraudulent green cards.
Another potentially serious access control and security problem pointed up in the report during the inspector general's visits to Y- 12. Documents designated as "official use only" were lying in a construction trailer which was accessed by the foreign workers.
A spokesman for the National Nuclear Security Administration, which oversees Y-12, says an investigation turned up no evidence that the workers had been in that trailer, or that the documents had been compromised. And he adds, they were never near the uranium.
The NNSA spokesman says procedures have changed at Y-12. Now all workers and visitors are required to show passports or birth certificates, and he says, "We are confident this will not happen at any other NNSA site."
But the IG expresses concerns that shortcomings may still exist at other Department of Energy locations. Ed Lyman of the Union of Concerned Scientists says the IG's report underscores that while the U.S. spends much of its effort worrying about the security of nuclear material in Russia and other countries, we have major problems here in making sure U.S. facilities are adequately protected.
Illegal workers have also been discovered, Lou, at other critical infrastructure sites. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has made arrests at nuclear power plants, commercial airports, petrochemical plants in military installations. Add to that now a nuclear weapons facility -- Lou.
DOBBS: A shocking report, Jeanne. The sense there on the part of the inspector general then is that there are remaining vulnerabilities. Is there also a sense that enough is being done to eliminate those vulnerabilities?
MESERVE: Well, he recognized that the NNSA is taking steps at its facilities, but it does not have supervision over all the DOE facilities spread across the country. The concern he expressed was about what might be happening at those other Department of Energy sites.
DOBBS: Extraordinary. Jeanne Meserve, thank you very much, reporting tonight from Washington.
Many of the largest, most profitable companies in this country are having trouble keeping your name, address and other personal data secret. The list of those companies is growing: MasterCard, Visa, Maestro, Cirrus, Citibank. Friday, Visa announced 40 million major credit cardholders were exposed to the risk of fraud. Now there are rising calls to hold those companies legally accountable.
Christine Romans has the report.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Identity theft is becoming an epidemic. OPERATOR: Welcome to Citibank automated service.
OPERATOR: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
OPERATOR: If you believe you have recently been the victim of identity theft, press 6.
ROMANS: So ubiquitous, it's the first prompt when you call Citibank, which recently lost the information for 3.9 million customers. In the past five months, a staggering number of identity breaches. From February to June, information for almost 50 million accounts has been lost or stolen from some of the biggest, most well- known companies.
And it's not your fault. You're at risk simply if you have a bank account. Buy a pair of shoes, or pick up paper towels. At the very least, these companies look sloppy, and in many cases they may be liable.
SUSAN CRAWFORD, CARDOZO LAW SCHOOL: It's fair to ask consumers to take care of their own financial lives, yes, absolutely. That's fair. It's not fair for vendors, people who are dealing with this sensitive information, not to be subject to federal law about the security protections that they have to meet.
ROMANS: For the banks, retailers, credit card companies and stock brokers who have lost information, a reminder. They are required by federal banking law to prevent fraudulent access to confidential financial information.
JOHN PALFREY, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: And I think you will see a rise in the liability of these companies, either through federal or state law, which has clearly become more of an issue, or possibly through lawsuits under tort regime.
ROMANS: Thirty-two states now are considering security breach notification laws. And legislation proposed in Washington would fine a company $1,000 for every piece of data it loses.
ROMANS: But the lobbyists are already working against that. One would hope companies are putting as much effort into securing their information as they are into securing lobbyists. Of course, if you don't trust that these companies will keep your personal information safe, you can buy identity theft insurance. Ironically, some of the financial institutions that have lost our identifies and our information are also offering identity theft insurance -- Lou.
DOBBS: You've got to love that circular piece of responsibility. The fact is that the requirements that one be at least notified when one of these large companies loses personal data, medical, personal financial data, that's a case I know in California, a couple of other states. Why...
ROMANS: No federal law. DOBBS: ... why in the world don't we get a federal law? It doesn't have anything to do with those corporate lobbyists, would it?
ROMANS: Well, one would wonder. But right now there is no federal law mandating the notification if your information has been lost. And as we pointed out on Friday, MasterCard, 40 million potential customers. MasterCard says it's far fewer than that that are actually hacked into, but that's a small consolation.
DOBBS: Very little consolation in this as records are being outsourced, lost. It's...
ROMANS: It's ridiculous.
DOBBS: ... mindless. Christine, thank you.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Christine Romans.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you think credit card companies should be held responsible for the theft of personal data, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
Turning now to Arkansas, where a sleepy driver fell asleep at the wheel and ended up in bed, someone else's. The man lost control of his car, drove off a highway, crashed into a bedroom where a man -- another man was sleeping.
Amazingly, the man in the bed survived burns and an eye injury, the only impact. He said the force of the car wrapped his mattress around him "like a burrito." The driver and his wife who were coming home after a late night of gambling suffered only minor injuries. About as happy an ending as one could expect from that story.
Coming up next, one of America's closest allies violating U.S. security interests, selling high technology weapons to China. We'll have a special report.
One soldier's personal story of bravery, faith and fortitude is next. Tonight, my guest is Army Captain David Rozelle. He returned to the battlefield after losing his foot in combat. The first amputee as far as anyone knows who has ever returned to combat in a U.S. uniform. Stay with us for his remarkable story.
DOBBS: Anti-Syrian politicians victorious in Lebanon's general elections. An alliance led by opposition leader Saad Hariri has one control of Lebanon's parliament. This is the first election in Lebanon without the presence of Syrian troops in three decades. Saad Hariri is the son of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, who was assassinated in Beirut in February.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice declared it's not only the Lebanese who desire freedom from Syria's police state. She said the Syrian people also share that goal. The secretary made her remarks in a speech at the American University in Cairo, where she called on Egypt to lead and define a democratic future in the Middle East.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: A hopeful future is within the reach of every Egyptian citizen and every man and woman in the Middle East. The choice is yours to make. But you are not alone. All free nations are your allies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The secretary of state traveled to Egypt after visiting Israel, where she discussed Israeli weapon sales to China. The United States says those Israeli weapons could tilt the military balance against Taiwan. Israel, of course, declares it's one of this country's closest allies and receives $3 billion in U.S. aid every year, saying it was all an innocent mistake.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice came down hard on Israel for selling upgraded military Harpy attack drones to China. A message she believes they heard.
RICE: I think the Israelis now understand fully our concerns about the transfer of sophisticated technology to China. This is a concern that we have registered with a number of countries, but particularly those with which we have close defense cooperation relationships.
SYLVESTER: In 2003, Israel tried to sell a plane with an airborne radar system called the Falcon to China. The sale was put on hold when the U.S. government stepped in. But for years, Israel has gotten away with discreetly selling arms to communist China.
KURT CAMPBELL, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Once our military contacts were suspended after Tiananmen, Israel's just went right on, but at a much lower level in terms of being behind the scenes.
SYLVESTER: U.S. officials now fear the balance of power in the region is shifting as China rapidly builds up its military power. China considers Taiwan to be a renegade province. The United States has said it would defend the island, setting up a potential conflict between the world's most powerful country and the world's largest.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: This is a real distinct possibility. There are easy ways to imagine this war beginning, easy ways to imagine the United States and the PRC directly fighting each other. SYLVESTER: The State Department is close to finalizing a deal with Israel that would allow U.S. officials to vet future arms sales to China. To ensure Israel complies, U.S. officials have threatened to limit technology transfers to Israel, already halting Israeli involvement in the F-35 joint strike fighter product in April.
SYLVESTER: The United States is also concerned about other countries selling military tech to China. U.S. officials were able to convince the European Union to not lift a long-standing arms embargo to China -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Coming up next here, useless information from the CIA director about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. But it's headlined information. If Porter Goss has an excellent idea, as he says, of where Osama bin Laden is, why haven't U.S. forces captured or killed him, as once was the mission? Our special report is next.
And one soldier's remarkable example of courage and determination. How the war and his life has changed since his first tour of duty in Iraq. Captain David Rozelle is our guest.
And Bill Moyers on America. Tonight, a conversation with Bill Moyers. The award-inning journalist, best-selling author will be here to tell us why he has never been more concerned about the future of this country.
Stay with us.
DOBBS: CIA director Porter Goss has declared that he has, quote, "an excellent idea" about where Osama bin Laden is hiding, but in an interview with "Time" magazine, Goss did not say precisely where bin Laden was holed up and Goss did not say when he expects bin Laden to be captured or killed. David Ensor has the story.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CIA director Porter Goss raised eyebrows with his comment to "TIME" magazine that he has an excellent idea of where Osama bin Laden is. Current U.S. officials were quick to say that the information is not specific enough to take immediate action.
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think he's probably talking about a very large area, hundreds of square miles, along the Afghan/Pakistani border. As you know, it's an area that is inaccessible, mountainous.
ENSOR: Bin Laden, U.S. officials say, is probably hiding in Pakistan's northwest territories, or Waziristan, along the Afghan/Pakistani border. It is rugged country, mostly mountainous, with hundreds of caves and hideouts. Bin Laden could be in either country, but U.S. forces in Afghanistan make it dangerous on that side of the border, in the view of the outgoing U.S. ambassador in Kabul.
ZALMAY KHALILZAD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO AFGHANISTAN: I do not believe that Osama is in Afghanistan.
ENSOR: Khalilzad said bin Laden will be caught sooner or later.
KHALILZAD: It's not an easy job to find one person, maybe with someone helping him, a small group of people in a vast region.
ENSOR: Pakistan won't let U.S. military units operate on their own. Pakistani military units have been up in some border villages in recent months for the first time in decades, U.S. officials say, putting new pressure on the al Qaeda fugitive leaders.
MCLAUGHLIN: It's likely that he's having more trouble communicating. It's likely that he's having to move. It's likely he's having to go underground. And when those sorts of things happen, people on the run are somewhat more vulnerable.
ENSOR: The Pakistani government has sovereignty in the area bin Laden is believed to be hiding, but only partial control, and that's why it is, as the CIA director noted, a sanctuary for outlaws -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, there's nothing new about the terrain being rugged, nothing new about who is the friend of Osama bin Laden and who is the friend of the United States. What in the world is Porter Goss thinking by bringing up the issue when this administration, it seems had worked long and hard to kind of subdue the whole issue, suppress, even, if you will, the issue of Osama bin Laden?
ENSOR: Well, he was asked the question by "Time" magazine, and I think he probably -- if he had to do it again, he might say that he has excellent information but it is not specific enough to take any kind of action. Probably regrets the use of the words, although he does say the information is excellent that they have, and I guess, in general terms, they're very confident he's in that region. Lou?
DOBBS: Confident? Excellent information? It seems at time appropriate for parsing.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, David Ensor, for that excellent report.
I'm honored to be joined once again by my special guest tonight, his military service, filled with bravery, and determination, a true example of the best of American values. Captain David Rozelle was wounded during his first tour of duty in Iraq. He became the first amputee from Operation Iraqi Freedom to return to active duty and the same battlefield. In fact, as far as we can determine, he is the first amputee to return to combat. He is now home safely after his second tour of duty, we are pleased to tell you. And Captain Rozelle joins us tonight from Denver, Colorado. Captain, welcome home. Good to talk with you.
CAPT. DAVE ROZELLE, U.S. ARMY: Hey, thank you. It's good to be home.
DOBBS: The work that you put in to be able to be able to return to your troops in Iraq is remarkable. We talked, just about a week before you returned to Iraq. I know you had trepidation, as any soldier would, in returning to battle, while at the same time determined to return to battle and to be with your troops. What was it like?
ROZELLE: Well, you know, it was a two-year road to recovery and it started the day that I was injured, and I think, it ended the day that I actually got on the airplane to go back to war, and it took -- I have to admit, it took a lot of courage to get back on that aircraft to go back to war, but it took even more courage to do a two-day road march north to Baghdad out of Kuwait, and that's really the point at which I realized I was recovered.
DOBBS: A two-day march from the border of Kuwait to Baghdad, that is a long journey. But what was the reaction of your troops when you returned to lead them?
ROZELLE: Well, I think that they saw a lot of bravery in me. A lot of them look for me to -- to inspire them in their daily operations. They had to go out into danger, and they thought, you know, this guy's made it back, and this guy's done it, and this is our leader. So, let's go out and let's go out and fight.
DOBBS: Well, they went out and -- to fight. You went out with them, moving actually in operations around the Syrian border. What was that like?
ROZELLE: That was probably the highlight of my trip. I got to go out and lead a forward tactical base on the Syrian border for a two-week operation, and although I wasn't in control of the entire operation, I was in control of the three small towns around my area of operation, where I got to do some dismount of patrols and actually some raids and searches and things like that. And, that was really the final test for my prosthetic device, and for myself, to show that I can go back and I can do this, and I can lead my soldiers.
DOBBS: It was important, I know, talking with you now more than three months ago, I can tell, you wanted to prove a lot to your fellow soldiers and to the fellow soldiers that you spent a lot of time with, and to Walter Reed. You've done that, and now you have a very important job. You're going back to Walter Reed, to work with amputees and to bring them help and example.
ROZELLE: Yes, that's right. I mean, I'm coming back out of command. The hardest thing for any commander to do is give up his command, but to go back to Walter Reed and provide the long-term care that I'm going to provide to these soldiers, as both as an inspiration, and also in their day-to-day life, getting them ready to either go back and fight like I did, or join the civilian world, and be ready to take on any challenge that can come their way, I'm very proud and honored to do that, and it's not like I'm giving up command. It's like I'm taking another.
DOBBS: And an important command, one of the most important commands, I would think.
Let me ask you your impressions upon returning to Iraq, since you were wounded, the changes that you noted. Much improved? Is it worse from your perspective?
ROZELLE: Well, it's really hard to quantify. I mean, obviously, the army goes where there's trouble, and insurgents go away from where the army is. So, it's a continual cat-and-mouse chase around Iraq. But I think we have done some great things in Iraq, and I saw it from the time that I crossed the border in Iraq, and saw the first border patrol station armed by Iraqi people, and literally, Lou, was guarded from the Kuwaiti border all the way to Baghdad by Iraqi troops in their armored vehicles, providing security for us as we moved. And that is a huge mark of success compared to last time.
DOBBS: Well, you're a great story of success, and a great story of values and determination, and certainly amongst those values, your own bravery. I know you're going to be a wonderful example to the men and women that you're going to be working with at Walter Reed as you have been to the troops you've been commanding. Captain David Rozelle, as always, it's good to see you and I look forward to seeing you here in New York soon.
ROZELLE: Thank you, I will.
DOBBS: Take care. Captain Dave Rozelle's book is "Back in Action: An American Soldier's Story of Courage, Faith, and Fortitude." We can't recommend it too highly.
Still ahead, why one senator is surprised the Bush administration hasn't done more to fix some controversial parts of CAFTA. The senator is our guest.
And later, Moyers on America, a conversation with Bill Moyers. We'll be talking about why this best-selling author says the American dream is flat on its back. Stay with us.
DOBBS: We're going quickly to Capitol Hill now, where Senators have just voted to defeat the cloture vote, voting not to end the debate on the nomination of John Bolton to be U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.
Joe Johns has the report for us. Joe, what happened?
JOHNS: Well, Lou, as expected, in fact, the nomination of John Bolton for the United Nations has been blocked for the second time. It means the administration did not get the required votes in order to go to a full vote on the merits of the confirmation of John Bolton. Of course, what it all means is that the administration still has another thing up its sleeve, still has an opportunity, of course, to make a recess appointment of John Bolton to the United Nations post, if the administration chooses to do so. They've sent mixed signals on that; not clear.
But as it stands on Capitol Hill now, they have not been able to cut off debate. That means they have not been able to move on a vote on the merits of the nomination. Democrats saying they want more information about John Bolton before they let this nomination go forward -- Lou?
DOBBS: The word we're getting here, Joe, is that the vote was 54-38. Do -- are those 38 votes all Democrats?
JOHNS: I cannot tell...
DOBBS: Or excuse me, those fifty -- those 38 votes all Republicans?
JOHNS: I cannot tell you the vote breakdown, because really the only way, at this stage, to know is to sit inside the chamber and tell you how members voted. I can tell you a number of members I asked about, in fact, had voted the way they did vote before.
DOBBS: If you would, Joe Johns, as soon as you can get that composition of that vote, 54-38, if you would bring that to us as quickly as possible in this defeat for cloture. That is, the defeat for the administration for the Senate majority leader in moving this nomination ahead to the -- to end debate on John Bolton's nomination to be U.N. ambassador. John -- Joe, thank you very much.
Joe Johns from Capitol Hill.
DOBBS: In New York, Adelphia Communications founder John Rigas today, sentenced to 15 years in prison for his role in that firm's massive fraud scandal. Rigas was found guilty of helping steal more than $100 million from that cable company, hiding more than $2 billion in debt. The judge said he would have sentenced Rigas to even more prison time were he in better health. Rigas is suffering from cancer and said today that his legal team will fight on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN RIGAS, FOUNDER, ADELPHIA COMMUNICATIONS: Our hope is in our appeal and we're going to move ahead with it very strongly and very positively.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Rigas' son Timothy sentenced to a harsher sentence of 20 years in prison. Timothy Rigas was the chief financial officer of Adelphia. The Adelphia scandal forced the firm to declare bankruptcy in 2002.
Turning now to the free trade agreement that the White House signed more than a year ago, but has yet to win approval from Congress: The Central American Free Trade Agreement has triggered outrage from many groups including American Sugar Farmers, who say CAFTA will devastate their business. Now, the White House is trying, offering to work with sugar farmers, trying to win a yes vote on CAFTA from at least one U.S. Senator. I asked Senator Craig Thomas of Wyoming if the White House has offered enough yet to win his support.
SEN. CRAIG THOMAS (R), WYOMING: We haven't heard back from them yet. I'm expecting to hear something from the secretary in the next day or so. So, the answer is: No. I haven't heard.
DOBBS: Does that surprise you, Senator? I mean, the White House has been pushing this thing, you know, like a rock up a hill for months and months and months, and delayed the vote before the elections last year. Yet, doesn't have a plan that would be persuasive to you, to others concerned about the impact on American agriculture and American workers?
THOMAS: I am a little surprised about that. You know, I've talked to the presidents of the six countries there. I've talked to the president, the vice president, the secretary of state, the secretary of interior, the secretary of agriculture and they all talk about how important this is, in areas beyond trade, in terms of security, in terms of relationships and so on.
But, you know -- and I think if it's that important to everyone, including the people from the CAFTA countries, why are they letting it get hung up over this relatively small matter. So, I am surprised that there hasn't been more thought and effort made to fix this piece of it.
DOBBS: Well, Senator, I wish you and all of your colleagues there in Washington, the Senate and the Congress, a lot of luck in making it so, as it were.
THOMAS: Well, we'll be working at it and I thank you very much for the conversation.
DOBBS: Senator, good to have you with us.
THOMAS: See you later.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson joining us with a preview -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, thanks very much.
Good evening, everyone.
Next on "360:" New developments in the case of the missing Alabama girl, Natalee Holloway. A local judge, the father of one of the young men being held in connection with her disappearance, has been questioned as a witness to the crime. There is no indication about what he might have witnessed, but Natalee's family wants answers.
We'll going to talk to Natalee's mom at the top of the show.
Also ahead tonight: Germs in the workplace. We're talking about on your keyboard, on your phone, on your mouse. Some shocking information about just how dirty your office might be and what you can do to clean it up.
All that, and more -- Lou?
DOBBS: Yuck, Anderson.
COOPER: I know. My office was worse than a toilet bowl, I'm told.
DOBBS: We're approaching the level of too much information, Anderson.
Thank you very much -- looking forward to it.
When we continue here: Author and legendary journalist Bill Moyers says Washington is failing Americans and he says the American dream needs a lot of help.
Bill Moyers is our special guest here, next.
DOBBS: We're pleased to welcome back Bill Moyers, who's been writing and reporting on this great country of ours for decades. But Bill says he has never been more concerned about the state of the American dream than now. He says the very meaning of what it is to be an American is at risk. Bill Moyers' latest book is, "Moyers on America." It has just been published in paperback.
Bill Moyers, it's great to have you here.
BILL MOYERS, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: It's good to be back, Lou.
DOBBS: Never more concerned about where this country is, right now -- why?
MOYERS: Hope and opportunity have long been the beacons of American life, and if you travel the country, as I do, listening to people talk about their struggles, reporting on their hopes and their dreams, and then you read, like both of us read, you realize that the American dream is flat on its back.
The inequality in this country is greater than it's been since 1929. The gap between -- when I went to Washington in 1960, the gap between the highest paid and the lowest paid was 20-fold. Now it's 75-fold. "The Wall Street Journal" reported two weeks ago that if you were a child born in poverty in Europe or Canada, you have a better chance at prosperity than a child born in America today. "New York Times," "Wall Street Journal" have also reported that the upward mobility of people at the bottom has stalled. And no Marxist rag, "The Economist," one of the best friends business and capitalism have, reported just the weekend before George W. Bush's second inauguration, that the inequality that is growing in this country means America's on the way to becoming a European style class-based society. I didn't make that up. That's not my term. That's "The Economist."
When hope and opportunity close down, democracy is in trouble. That's why I'm concerned.
DOBBS: And I share many, if not all of those concerns that you express in your book, and here. But I find it mind-boggling the number of people who seem inured to an educational system that is failing, a public education system that is the bedrock to me of what has been the American dream, offering poor boys like Bill Moyers and Lou Dobbs and millions and millions of other folks an opportunity to move from the so-called working class into the middle class and beyond, that -- to lose that is -- to meet such indifference on the part of so many people is mind-boggling to me.
MOYERS: My parents worked hard all their lives and never had much money, but my brother went to school on a GI Bill. I went to a public school, hitchhiked down a public highway, stopped and rested in a public park. I mean, I was the beneficiary of what we used to call the common wealth. And all of us pitched in to make opportunity available to everyone. That's -- the loss of that, a lot of working- class families today cannot afford to send their kids to college. Tuition zooming out of sight. "The Economist" story said corporations are no longer allowing people to rise as much as they did.
DOBBS: Warren Buffett was sitting here one night a few weeks ago. We were talking about class warfare, and he said, and I know we're not supposed to talk about class warfare in this country, but the fact is, that's what's going on politically. And he says, well, I don't know if it's class warfare or not, but I can tell you, my class is winning.
MOYERS: Yeah, I saw that.
DOBBS: And he said it with great -- with anguish, not with any sense of pride in it at all, rather concern and disappointment.
When I was growing up, we wouldn't even think to refer to class, because it's America, where there isn't a class. It's one people, aspiring to -- with one set of ideals and values.
MOYERS: It's in our DNA. We, the people, in order to form a more perfect union -- there was this sense of a social contract. There was this sense that we are in this boat together, and that there wasn't this great gap of people living in isolated communities.
I hope you'll have Jared Diamond on sometime. Jared Diamond's new book -- he's a Pulitzer Prize-winning scholar -- his new book is called "The Collapse: How Societies Create Their Own Downfall." And he says the one sure blueprint for failure is when the elites insulate themselves from the consequences of their action.
That's the problem today. You talk about the lack of outrage and indignation. Washington lives in a cocoon, a bubble, and the rich and the elite, the privileged and the powerful, they live in those cocoons, too, and so there's nobody really reporting on or speaking up for or voting for working people.
DOBBS: What in the world is going on with the national news media in this country? You know, it seems to me that the administration is having its way, whether you're Republican or Democrat. I'm not suggesting one way or the other. But the level of critical judgment being applied against the actions of Congress, of the Bush administration, of this government, this federal government, it's pretty tepid stuff.
MOYERS: There are two things, and I write about it in "Moyers on America." I have three chapters on the media. One is that while there's still world-class journalism being done in this country, mega media corporations that now own more and more of the media have a greater interest in profits than they do in reporting. So that it's expensive to report, to do a documentary, to go out in the field and report on what's happening in Tumacua (ph), Pennsylvania.
DOBBS: So there was a time you could turn to the Democratic Party and expect to see the working men and women of the country represented. You could pretty much expect Republicans to represent business interests. For the life of me, Bill, I can't discern the difference between the two parties. They both, it seems to me, owned lock, stock and barrel by corporate interests.
MOYERS: Democrats knock on the same door, supplicate from the same sources, corporate sources and wealthy, privileged people as do Republicans. Democrats were in power 40 years, lost touch with the American people, no longer had the ability to understand what was happening to people who weren't doing well. And there's no party today that speaks on behalf of the striving middle class, or the struggling working people in this country, people who live paycheck to paycheck.
You look at all the statistics. You know, some wag once said, it's the mark of a truly educated person to be deeply moved by statistics. Well, you don't have to be educated to be deeply moved by the fact that 80 million people in this country live in households that earn less than $25,000 a year. And those are the people who need the Social Security that Bush is trying to phase out. They need public broadcasting as an alternative to commercial. They need help to get their kids into college. They need public libraries, public schools, and yet they're the ones being left behind.
DOBBS: You're concerned. Are you still hopeful?
MOYERS: Oh, I love this country. I mean, like all journalists that I know who are critical, who report bad news, we report it because, as Napoleon said to his secretary, "if the news is good, let me sleep until morning. If the news is bad, wake me up."
And the one thing we have in this country is that First Amendment, which allows us to get up on the deck of the ship, grab the captain by the arm, and say, that's an iceberg out there, better turn this ship before it hits that course. And I'll tell you, growing inequality is the iceberg facing America in the 21st century. We have got to do something about it.
Am I optimistic? Look, who was the Italian philosopher who said, "I believe in pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will." I believe in looking at the facts -- the truth shall make you free -- and then acting on it. And that's what we have to discover -- rediscover if democracy's going to be revitalized.
DOBBS: Bill Moyers, "Moyers on America" is the book. Bill Moyers, legend, best-selling author.
MOYERS: Does that mean I'm dead?
MOYERS: The legendary Robin Hood, Vlad the Impaler, you know?
DOBBS: You still get enough criticism to justify the -- I think the expression, they don't kick sick dogs.
MOYERS: Thank you.
DOBBS: Bill Moyers, good to have you here.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. A look at what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.
DOBBS: Our poll tonight -- 99 percent of you say credit card companies should be held responsible for the theft of personal data. Now, 99 percent of us, all we have to do is convince the credit card companies and Congress.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
COOPER: Lou, thanks very much.
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