Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Under Fire; Declining Support; War in Iraq; Human Trafficking Case; Chinese to Buy U.S. Oil Firm?; North Korea Still Defiant; Bob Bennett Interview
Aired June 23, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, should local governments have the right to seize your house and your land for private development? A landmark ruling today by the Supreme Court.
Western wildfires. The summer fire season begins. At least 30,000 acres scorched in Arizona. Hundreds of homes threatened.
And missing in Aruba. Police searching for an Alabama teenager arrest a judge. We'll have a live report from Aruba.
Our top story tonight is the rising concern in Congress about the war in Iraq and the increasing number of American casualties. Democrats and some Republicans today declared the Bush administration has been overly optimistic about the progress of the war. In reply, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said it would be a terrible mistake to set a deadline to withdraw our troops from Iraq.
Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Along with insurgents, U.S. commanders are now battling the growing perception that the U.S. is losing in Iraq.
GEN. GEORGE CASEY, COMMANDER, MULTINATIONAL FORCE: That is what the terrorists and the insurgents would like you to believe.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Any who say that we've lost this war, or that we're losing this war, are wrong. We are not.
MCINTYRE: Flanked by his commanders, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress the worst thing the U.S. could do now is said a deadline to get out of Iraq.
RUMSFELD: It would throw a lifeline to terrorists, who in recent months have suffered significant loses and casualties, been denied havens, and suffered weakened popular support.
MCINTYRE: But Rumsfeld's top commander seemed to break ranks with Vice President Dick Cheney's assessment that the insurgency is in its last throes, testifying there are now more foreign fighters in Iraq than there were six months ago. GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, COMMANDER, CENTRAL COMMAND: In terms of the overall strength of the insurgency, I would say it's about the same as it was.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: So you wouldn't agree with the statement that it's in its last throes?
ABIZAID: I don't know that I would make any comment about that, other than to say there's a lot of work to be done against the insurgency.
MCINTYRE: And Abizaid expressed deep concern about slipping support for the war at home.
ABIZAID: I've never seen the lack of confidence greater. When my soldiers say to me, and ask me the question whether or not they've got support from the American people or not, that worries me. And they're starting to do that.
MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld drew the ire of some senators. West Virginia's Robert Byrd accused him of sneering.
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: The people out there want us to ask questions. So get off your high horse when you come up here.
MCINTYRE: But the most contentious exchange was with long-time adversary Senator Ted Kennedy.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We are in serious trouble in Iraq, and this war has been consistently and grossly mismanaged. And we are now in a seemingly intractable quagmire. Our troops are dying, and there really is no end in sight.
RUMSFELD: There isn't a person at this table who agrees with you that we're in a quagmire and that there's no end in sight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Both the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and General Casey, the Iraq commander, quickly chimed in to support Rumsfeld that they didn't believe Iraq was a quagmire. General Abizaid didn't say anything. When he was asked directly what did he think, he simply said diplomatically, "I'm standing by the secretary of defense" -- Christine.
ROMANS: Jamie, plenty of criticism of the Pentagon leadership from Democrats. But what about the Republicans? Did many Republicans also criticize Donald Rumsfeld's handling of this war?
MCINTYRE: There has been some of that, particularly the idea that the continued rosy scenarios of "everything's fine," "it's just going to require patience," you know, "we need to just stay the course," that's wearing a bit thin on Capitol Hill. Some people would like to see some more assurances that the Iraqi forces are going to be capable enough, and that there really are enough troops in place, and that they're making adjustments as needed to make sure that this strategy works out.
ROMANS: All right. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks, Jamie.
The latest opinion polls say support for the war in Iraq is declining among American voters. The erosion in support comes despite continued public backing for the global war on terrorists and on radical Islamists.
Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The war on terrorism and the war in Iraq, two different issues? The public seems to think so. At the time of the election last November, most Americans approved of the way President Bush was handling terrorism. His rating on Iraq was ten points lower.
The president's rating on terrorism is still positive, though it has slipped a bit. His approval rating on Iraq has tumbled to 37 percent. The White House links the two issues.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Iraq is a central front in the war on terrorism.
SCHNEIDER: Even though the 9/11 Commission found no evidence of an operational relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Nor, their report said, have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with Al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.
Now, with increasing violence and mounting casualties in Iraq, the public has turned anti-war. Fifty-nine percent of Americans say they oppose the war in Iraq. In a statement aimed at boosting support for the war, President Bush made an explicit connection between Iraq and 9/11 in his radio address on Saturday.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We went to war because we were attacked. And we are at war today because there are still people out there who want to harm our country and hurt our citizens.
SCHNEIDER: On Wednesday, Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove depicted a division in the country over 9/11.
KARL ROVE, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war. Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding to our attackers.
SCHNEIDER: Democrats are outraged. There was no division after 9/11, they argue.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: He knows full well, as do all Americans, that our country came together after 9/11. There was, except for one vote in the House, unanimous support for our going into Afghanistan to make that fight.
SCHNEIDER: The division came later over Iraq, two different issues. In the past, linking Iraq with 9/11 and the war on terrorism may have boosted support for Iraq. That could be changing.
Public satisfaction with the war on terrorism is the lowest it's been since 9/11, not because Americans feel more threatened. They don't. Discontent is being fueled by something else: Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The administration is trying to boost support for the war in Iraq by linking it with the war on terrorism. Instead, the reverse seems to be happening. Disillusionment with Iraq is causing discontent with the war on terrorism -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Bill Schneider. Thanks, Bill.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
ROMANS: In Iraq, another deadly day of insurgent attacks. Nearly 20 people were killed. Most of them Iraqi civilians.
Jennifer Eccleston reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The violence shows no sign of abating. Four early morning car bomb blasts in the busy Karada (ph) commercial district in central Baghdad left 17 people dead and 68 wounded. The attacks targeted two Shiite mosques and an Iraqi police patrol where three officer were killed. Another blast took place outside of a public bath house and a fifth car bomb was detected, but it was diffused by Iraqi police.
Now, the explosions come just hours after at least 18 people died on Wednesday in five blasts, all car bombs in mainly Shiite districts of the capital city. Over 46 people were wounded.
Now, the Iraqi police say the attacks were the work of foreign insurgents targeting the majority Shiites, pitting them against the minority Sunnis and increasing the chance of sectarian violence here in Iraq.
Now, also today, the al Qaeda group in Iraq said in an Internet posting that a senior Saudi militant, Abdullah Mohammed al-Rashud (ph), was killed in fighting with U.S. forces in Al Qaim, near the Syrian border. Of course al Qaeda in Iraq is led by Abu Musab al- Zarqawi.
Now, al-Rashud (ph) is one of three Saudi fugitives at large from a list of 26 senior al Qaeda militants accused of carrying out attacks in the Saudi kingdom. We know from the U.S. Marines that 50 insurgents were believe killed in Operation Spear in the city of Karabilah, near to Al Qaim. They said that Saudis could have been part of that number. They found a number of non-Iraqi passports, including passports from those from the Saudi kingdom.
Jennifer Eccleston, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Vice President Dick Cheney today stood firm on his assertion the United States is winning the war in Iraq. The vice president refused to back away from his declaration that the insurgency is in its last throes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you look at what the dictionary says about "throes," it can still be a -- you know, a violent period. "The throes of a revolution."
The point would be that the conflict will be intense, but it's intense because the terrorists understand if we're successful at accomplishing our objective, standing up a democracy in Iraq, that that's a huge defeat for them. They'll do everything they can to stop it.
You look back at World War II, the toughest battles, the most difficult battles, both in Europe and the Pacific, occurred just a few months before the end, the Battle of the Bulge in December of 1944, and Okinawa in the spring of 1945. And I see this as a similar situation where they're going to go all out, and they'll do everything they can to disrupt that process. But I think we're strong enough to defeat them, and I think the process itself of establishing a democracy and a viable security force for the Iraqis will, in fact, signal the end, if you will, for the terrorists inside Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Vice President Cheney also declared that Washington is full of "armchair quarterbacks," as he put it, who like to comment on Iraq and Afghanistan.
Turning now to an historic civil rights trial in Mississippi. A judge today sentenced 80-year-old Edgar Ray Killen to 60 years in prison. Killen was convicted of manslaughter on Tuesday for the 1964 murders of three civil rights workers.
The former member of the Ku Klux Klan will serve three consecutive 20-year terms. That is the maximum allowed by law.
A closely-divided Supreme Court today ruled that local governments can seize anyone's property against their will in order to sell it to private developers. The 5-4 decision is expected to have widespread implications around the country.
Joining me now for more is our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Hi, Jeff.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.
ROMANS: This was a narrow one, a tight one.
TOOBIN: It's a really hard case because, you know, the 5th Amendment to the Constitution says the government can seize property for public use in return for just compensation. These people in New London, Connecticut, say, what do you mean public use? You're giving it to a private person.
The Supreme Court said, well, the government can decide that it's good for the whole community to have private economic development. And five justices agreed with that view.
ROMANS: In the past, this has been for roads and schools and for blighted areas that have been raised, where they've tried to build stadiums and the like. This time it's different. This is turning over people's homes to private developers. That kind of raises some -- Sandra Day O'Connor wrote for the dissent, saying, this is uprooting families for the commercial benefit of private wealthy developers.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, it's really a shift in how government views its job. What the court said is that, you know, if elected officials think this is for public good, that it's the public good of the community that you're going to have private economic development, we're not going to second-guess that. We're going to trust the elected officials to do it right.
If there's some kind of corruption there, that's another story. But they deferred to the definition of public good to the elected officials.
ROMANS: We'll assume there's no corruption between companies and developers and local governments, I guess.
TOOBIN: Well, that's -- I mean, that's one of the points that Justice O'Connor and Justice Thomas raised in their dissenting opinions, which is, you know, how do you guarantee that when you have -- you know, giving property to private developers, that it isn't a sleazy deal.
ROMANS: Edgar Ray Killen sentenced today to 60 years in prison. Sixty years for an 80-year-old man, you say there's a bigger...
TOOBIN: There's another number that's really important in that case, which is 41, which is 41 years that Mr. Killen was free, having participated in one of the most horrible and monstrous murders in American history. So, yes, this amounts to a life sentence, but he got 41 years of freedom that Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner certainly didn't get.
ROMANS: Well said. Jeff Toobin. Thanks, Jeff.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Do you think the government should have the right to seize homes and turn them over to private developers, yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later on in the broadcast.
Up next, missing in Aruba. Police arrest a judge as they step up their search for a missing American teenager.
And tens of thousands of acres are scorched, hundreds of homes are at risk as the wildfire season begins in Arizona.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Tonight, a stunning development in the case of the Alabama teenager missing in Aruba. Police today arrested an Aruban judge who is the father of another suspect in this case.
Karl Penhaul is live in Palm Beach, Aruba, with the latest -- Karl.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Christine, prosecutors say they've arrested Judge Paul Van Der Sloot. He is a judge on this island, he's also the father of 16-year-old Joran Van Der Sloot.
Joran Van Der Sloot is one of five suspects now in police custody. He was arrested two weeks ago because he was one of three young men last seen in Natalee's company in the wee hours of May the 30th, the day that she disappeared.
But Judge Van Der Sloot had been in for questioning over the weekend by police. Police said at that stage he was being viewed as a possible witness. But with today's arrest, he now is a suspect. And prosecutors say he is being interviewed and interrogated in suspicion that he may be connected with Natalee's disappearance.
Prosecutors now have about five hours to continue interrogating him. After that they must decide whether to hold him for a further two days in which they will continue this interrogation. As I say, five suspects now being held in connection with Natalee's disappearance -- Christine.
ROMANS: Karl Penhaul, in Aruba. Thank you, Karl.
Police in Camden, New Jersey, are investigating the disappearance of three young boys. The boys, ages 5, 6 and 11, were last seen playing together outside one of their homes last night. Family members and volunteers have launched a door-to-door search for them. Police are also searching the Delaware River, just three blocks away from where the boys were last seen.
Wildfires are raging in the West tonight. One blaze in Arizona has already burned at least 30,000 acres. To put that in perspective, that is twice the size of Manhattan. Authorities say the fire was sparked by lightning.
Tess Rafols from our affiliate KTVK reports from Tonto National Forest in Arizona -- Tess.
TESS RAFOLS, REPORTER, KTVK: Well, Christine, behind us is the Tonto National Forest, and that's where flames continue to burn out of control at this hour. To give you an idea of where we are at, we are about 20 miles northeast of the Phoenix area.
This is being called the Cave Creek complex fire after two smaller brush fires actually merged. So far, we know some 250 homes have been evacuated, and at least 30,000 acres charred.
Now, this afternoon was the first time that our cameras were allowed into the national forest since this blaze began two days ago. Firefighters tell us the blaze has been fast-moving, and on-and-off winds are only fueling the flames.
So far, some 10 homes at least have been destroyed. The good news, though, is that everyone has been able to get out OK and no one's been hurt. Crews are battling this fire, of course, from the sky and on the ground with some 30- firefighters from all over the state here contributing to this effort.
We are told this fire is the top priority here out on the West since we have several fires going on in this area right now. The big news, again, is that 30,000 acres, at least, scorched so far. We know that number will continue to rise. Containment -- crews are hoping for some kind of containment within the next day or two -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Tess Rafols, thank you very much.
In California, firefighters are gaining ground on a wildfire there that has burned more than 3,000 acres. It is now 30 percent contained.
The fire began on Wednesday, when flames from a house fire spread quickly across the dry land. Six homes were destroyed, 1,000 people who were evacuated have been now allowed to return home.
Up next, violence intensifies in Afghanistan. U.S. troops faces escalating insurgent attacks. We'll have a special report from the Afghan-Pakistan border.
Plus, some Democrats say Social Security reform is dead. Now one leading Republican wants to prove them wrong. Does he have a chance? He's my guest next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: U.S. and Afghan troops fighting a major battle in Afghanistan have now killed more than 100 insurgents. Troops have surrounded a Taliban camp in southeast Afghanistan. Two senior Taliban commanders are believed to be trapped inside.
The fighting is the heaviest since the fall of the Taliban government at the end of 2001. Officials blame the escalating violence on insurgents crossing into Afghanistan from Pakistan.
Politicians insist that Pakistan is cooperating with U.S. and Afghan troops in this war, but as Barbara Starr reports from the mountains along the border, the reality is very different.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN was given exclusive access to the U.S. troops and Afghan militiamen patrolling these mountains, which were long a safe haven for Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. These troops are not poking around mountain caves looking for Osama bin Laden. This is a military offensive against insurgents.
The base took seven rockets. U.S. troops fired their mortars in return.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire.
STARR: This rocket attack is reality on the Pakistani border. U.S. troops on this front line told us they simply do not trust the Pakistanis to keep infiltrators from coming into Afghanistan to attack.
A U.S. Special Forces commander at this fire base would not go on camera, but told us that at certain border checkpoints the Pakistanis turn a blind eye to insurgents. Another senior U.S. military commander on the border told CNN he no longer tells the Pakistanis ahead of time when his men are launching operations, fearing they could be compromised.
And U.S. troops are seeing a disturbing new pattern they say indicates a network of support still exists inside Pakistan for these fighters. Colonel Patrick Donahue is the 82nd Airborne Brigade Commander in these mountains. He tells us his troops have killed large numbers of insurgents and are constantly on the offense.
COL. PATRICK DONAHUE, 82ND AIRBORNE DIVISION: The ones on the border are guerillas. They're well organized and trained. They have a standard kit. They all are well armed, and they know what to do with the weapons.
STARR: Commanders here say recent intelligence indicates gatherings of up to 300 young Islamic men at radical schools in Pakistan. They are urged to join the jihad and fight in Afghanistan.
DONAHUE: The other type of enemy we're facing is more of the insurgent cell, operating in the interior. These are the ones that were bombing -- burning the schools and dropping the hand grenades.
STARR: The troops say that these Afghan forces that travel with them through the mountains are fierce fighters who know every mountain nook where al Qaeda still may be lurking.
(on camera): U.S. Special Forces continue to believe that Osama bin Laden is hiding somewhere in the mountains of Pakistan, which lie just behind me. But it is the flow of foreign fighters and other insurgents that has U.S. troops most concerned along this dangerous border.
Barbara Starr, CNN, along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: And joining me now to talk about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq is General David Grange.
General, welcome to the program.
GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.
ROMANS: Let's start with what looks like a well-armed and well- organized guerrilla campaign there on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. How well trained are these insurgents and where are they coming from?
GRANGE: Well, I think the colonel is correct. I think that what you have across the border in Pakistan, you have matured, well- developed safe sites that provide resources and a training base for these insurgent forces, these guerrillas. And they have a very productive recruiting base from inside Pakistan. And it's not that the government of Pakistan is not cooperating, it's just that they don't control many of these areas.
The other point is that these guerrillas have learned how to fight American and other coalition forces, as well as the Afghan army, just as our forces have learned how to fight them better. And so they are a more mature, capable force.
ROMANS: Are they Taliban? Are they al Qaeda? Who are they?
GRANGE: Well, that's the majority of them. But there's also insurgents that are formed from some of the other warlords. And then there's groupings of common criminals that also use guerrilla tactics and spread terror and harass the local population.
ROMANS: How well are the coalition forces doing against these insurgents? It sounds as though it's heating up there.
GRANGE: Well, it's going -- it's going to heat up and it's going to slow down and heat up and slow down, like all conflict. They're doing very well.
I just had the opportunity to talk to a senior commander that returned from Afghanistan, and he's very positive, very upbeat about the accomplishments. What they need to focus on now is not only the military operations, but to really get the economy going, because that affects the populous, the will of the people to beat the enemy.
ROMANS: Well, let's talk about Iraq for a moment, because General Abizaid today said that -- he told senators that there are more foreign fighters coming into Iraq than there were six months ago. Then you have this controversy over whether the insurgency really is really in the last throes.
Where are we now in what's going on in Iraq? And these foreign fighters, do you think they're going back and forth from Afghanistan to Iraq?
GRANGE: No, I think -- well, there's some truth in both the comments. I think General Abizaid is correct, that foreign fighters are coming in and fighting in Iraq. It's a place to be, if you're a terrorist.
I also believe that -- I wouldn't use the same words that the vice president used, "in the last throes," but I think that there is a little bit of desperation, and there is a surge, and apparent prowess (ph) of the insurgents because, in August is the constitution of Iraq. In December are the general elections.
And as more of those things happen, it's tougher for the insurgents to operate. So they are desperate. They have to push hard. And they are pushing hard.
And it's having an effect on casualties, and it appears that they're very powerful. But I believe in my heart they'll be defeated. But it's going to take some time.
ROMANS: Donald Rumsfeld says that giving a timeline for leaving Iraq is something that is a lifeline for terrorists. Do you think it's better to leave this open-ended than to have some sort of date out there?
GRANGE: Absolutely. A timeline is always manipulated by the enemy forces or third parties. For instance, adjacent countries that want the transition in Iraq to fail, or even politicians.
And the thing about the timelines is that, if in conflict, which always happens, conditions change. And if they change, then your expectations appear, you know, that you've failed, when in fact you may not be. So no, I don't support putting out a timeline at all.
ROMANS: All right. General David Grange, "Grange On Point." Thank you.
GRANGE: Thank you.
ROMANS: Coming up next, a new plan for so-called Social Security reform that has nothing to do with private accounts. The senator behind the plan says he has President Bush's blessing. Senator Bob Bennett is our next guest.
And then, red star rising. China's latest bid to buy an American company, why some lawmakers promise it will never happen.
And the movement in Congress to outlaw burning the American flag. Two congressmen with passionate beliefs on either side of the issue are our guests.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: President Bush has made Social Security reform the centerpiece of his agenda. His plan includes a provision to convert a portion of the Social Security program into privatized accounts. Now, a prominent Republican, Senator Bob Bennett, is proposing new legislation that would take those controversial private accounts off the table, at least for now.
Joining me to discuss this reform effort is Senator Bennett, vice chairman of the Joint Economic Committee. Welcome to the program.
SEN. BOB BENNETT (R), UTAH: Thank you.
ROMANS: Let's talk a bit about your plan here. It's really kind of a two-pronged plan, one that includes private accounts and one that doesn't. You met with the president earlier this week, and he seemed to give the go for the plan without private accounts. Is he softening his stance on that a bit?
BENNETT: Well, first, let me make it clear, I've divided the two. It isn't a plan of two steps. I've taken the private accounts out of the bill that I will introduce next week. I'll introduce it as a separate bill for those who might want to vote for it. But my assessment is that there are not enough votes in the Senate to get personal accounts through. We have a problem. We need to deal with it. And so I've offered a bill that will deal with it. And the president said to me, good idea, let's go forward. Let's get the thing jump-started.
ROMANS: You say the Democrats have been intractable on this.
BENNETT: Yes.
ROMANS: But you really want to get things moving.
BENNETT: Yes. And frankly, I think that's right, because as we began in January, the Democrats were saying, there's no problem with Social Security. Now, I just looked at a press conference of some of my Democratic colleagues, and they say everybody recognizes there's a problem with Social Security. But now they're saying there's no solution.
ROMANS: Senator, how likely do you think it is that the White House would ultimately support Social Security reform without those private accounts?
BENNETT: Well, frankly, I don't think the Senate should be driven by what the White House does or doesn't support. I'm going to put a bill on the floor that would deal with the solvency problem, and deal with it in what I'm convinced is a very responsible, reasonable way. And so far, even though there have been more than a half a dozen Democrats who have told me privately they really like it, none of them has stepped forward to agree to be a co-sponsor. Instead, they're saying, oh, the Bennett plan is terrible. Well, how about the DeMint plan? Oh, it's terrible. How about Lindsey Graham's plan? Oh, it's terrible. Where is the Democratic plan, if in fact as they now admit, there is a serious problem? If there's a problem, we should try to solve it.
ROMANS: Yet the polls, Senator, are showing that the American people are not riled up about the Social Security plans, at least about...
BENNETT: No, the polls don't show that.
ROMANS: ... fixing them.
BENNETT: No, the polls don't show that. What the polls show is that the president has not been able to sell personal accounts. But he has been very successful in convincing something like 80 percent of the American people that there is a problem. That's where we need to start out. There is a problem. What is the solution? I've got one. The Democrats don't.
ROMANS: You think Americans want Social Security reform, but they may not want these personal accounts?
BENNETT: There's no question. The American people now recognize there is a problem, or the Democrats wouldn't be saying there is a problem. They recognize it, too. The question is, how do we fix it. And we've got a number of proposals on the table, and all of them are Republican proposals, none of them Democratic.
ROMANS: And the president has said repeatedly that he will welcome all ideas.
BENNETT: That's correct.
ROMANS: On Social Security reform.
BENNETT: That's correct.
ROMANS: Of the two bills that you're working on, Senator, which would you like to see make its way through?
BENNETT: Well, if I were living in the world where I could make every decision without having to worry about any of my colleagues, I would pass them both. I think we cannot solve the solvency question with personal accounts, but we cannot solve the structural problem without personal accounts.
But there are those who say, let's just solve it in the short- term -- short-term being the next 20, 30 years -- I say, OK, I've got a proposal that will do that. I would like to solve it forever, and personal accounts is the only way you can do that, because it gets the demographics working for you. Right now, they're working against you.
But all right, if I can't get enough votes to solve the long-term overall problem, let's get at least enough votes to solve the problem that our children and our grandchildren are going to face. And we can't find any Democrats so far who will publicly agree to work on solving the problem. They do agree, finally, that there is a problem, but they don't agree that there's a solution.
ROMANS: Senator Bob Bennett, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
BENNETT: My pleasure.
ROMANS: A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Do you think the government should have the right to seize homes and turn them over to private developers? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
Coming up, a New York City jury is deciding one of the most horrifying illegal alien smuggling cases in U.S. history. Will justice finally be done in the infamous Golden Venture case?
Plus, red star rising. A brazen Chinese bid for a major U.S. oil firm is under fire tonight. Some say it's a national security disaster waiting to happen.
And defending and protecting our American flag. Congress debates an amendment that would ban flag burning. And this time it has a better chance of passage than ever.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: The Golden Venture tragedy 12 years ago opened many Americans' eyes to the sickening global trade in illegal aliens. This week, the woman at the center of the case, Cheng Chui Ping, was found guilty on key charges. But deliberations are continuing on the most serious charge -- hostage taking. Prosecutors said Ping hired a brutal street gang to imprison smuggled aliens, and she forced their families to pay exorbitant smuggling fees.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): In Chinatown she is known as Sister Ping. And now, she is a convicted felon for the Golden Venture Steamer with a cargo of 300 illegal Chinese immigrants. It ran aground off Queens in 1993. The terrified Chinese immigrants jumped into the Atlantic Ocean. Ten died trying to reach land.
In federal court in Manhattan, 12 years later, she was convicted on federal conspiracy charges, money laundering, and trafficking in ransom proceeds. A victory for the government, but experts say the demand for cheap illegal labor is stronger than ever.
PETER KWONG, HUNTER COLLEGE: A lot of employers still would want to take advantage of these illegal immigrants, precisely because of their vulnerability. So, that means that we need to have labor enforcement policies, much better than what we're dealing with now.
ROMANS: Meantime, Sister Ping faces 35 years in prison. The hostage charge, if she's convicted on it, carries life. Her defense attorney had admitted his client ran an illegal bank, but distanced her from the deadly Golden Venture. The jury believed otherwise.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Prosecutors had called her the mother of all Snakeheads, a derisive term for a smuggler. When sister Ping was in business, Chinese men and women paid $40,000 to illegally enter this company. Since then, the price has soared to as high as $70,000.
Turning now to the price Chinese companies are willing to pay to buy up American assets. The China National Offshore Oil Corporation has just bid $18.5 billion for a California-based Unocal. The unsolicited bid has sparked outrage and demands that the White House stop China from buying up any more of America. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The deal would be the biggest buyout of an American firm by a Chinese company. CYNAC, a state-controlled Chinese oil firm is eager to snap up America's Unocal. It's unsolicited offer tops a competing bid by U.S. Chevron by more than $1 billion. But the Communist country's acquisition attempt many on Capitol Hill nervous.
SEN. MAX BAUCUS, (D) MONTANA: CYNOC is challenging Chevron's control for Unocal, a 115-year-old California based oil and gas company. China is here and now.
SYLVESTER: Lawmakers have sent President Bush a letter asking him to block any future deal.
REP. RICHARD POMBO, (R) CALIFORNIA: To have a U.S. oil company be bought out by the Chinese national oil company puts them in control of one of our greatest assets that drives. The cost of energy is one of the big et factors in our economy. And it's also a big national security issue.
SYLVESTER: A national security issue, because Unocal's high tech equipment has military applications. It can be used in nuclear testing.
This is only the latest high profile bid by a Chinese company. Haier, a Chinese appliance firm is seeking to acquire the Maytag corporation. And China's Lenovo bought IBM's personal computer division last month.
MICHAEL WESSEL, USCC: They have hundreds of billions of dollars in their banks that they're going to now come and use and buy assets from the U.S. and from other nations. In part, they want to buy U.S. brand names as they did earlier this year with IBM, because it gives them instant access to consumers here.
SYLVESTER: And in the case of oil, it gives China access to valuable resources to fuel growing demand.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Unocal reached a deal in April with Chevron. And as of now the Unocal board has said it favors keeping that agreement even though the offer is lower -- Christine.
ROMANS: Lisa, why is this trend of China investing in the United States -- why is it different than say, Japan investing here in U.S. assets in the '80s?
SYLVESTER: Well, that's a very good question. And one of the main differences in this case, China is a Communist country. Another factor is that China tends to do this cash and carry business. They essentially come to the United States, they'll buy up an American company, and they carry it back: the jobs, the profits and the like back to China. Japan was actually buying and investing here and staying here in the United States -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Lisa Sylvester in Washington. Thank you, Lisa.
The Senate grilled Treasury Secretary John Snow on the Unocal bid today during a hearing on China trade. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon demanded a U.S. security review of the deal if it's finalized. Snow expects the companies to comply voluntarily, with any review.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN SNOW, TREASURY SECRETARY: I would fully contemplate that the parties to a transaction would want to avail themselves of that process. That's normally what happens on a voluntary basis. The parties to that -- to a transaction, involving a foreign purchase of a U.S. company, that could have security implications, files for the review.
SEN. RON WYDEN (D) OREGON: I would only tell you, Mr. Secretary, if you don't review this one, that law is meaningless. And I'm telling you, and you and I have talked about this, those of us that consider ourselves free traders, have got to be aggressive in terms of using the existing tools on the books. And I'm telling you, I don't see the arguments for not doing a review there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Snow also said trade sanctions against China now under debate in Congress could hurt U.S. businesses rather than help. And he urged Congress to back off its criticism of China, while Beijing considers currency reform.
Turning to another pressing international issue, the nuclear challenge from North Korea. The White House today called on North Korea to set a date for a return to six country talks. But Pyungyang is refusing to cooperate, even though the United States is resuming food aid to North Korea. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A year since North Korea walked out of the six-way diplomatic talks, as countries cajole and beg it to come back to the negotiating table, North Korea has stalled. And in the meantime made enormous progress on their nuclear program. Congress has clearly lost patience.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN, (D) DELAWARE: One year has passed disastrously. We're a lot worse off in terms of our security today than we were a year ago today.
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI, (R) ALASKA: It seems like the pressure is more on us, because we haven't been able to push this thing over the edge. We've been waiting now for a year to try to get something moving. Nothing's happening.
PILGRIM: Now, the Bush administration pledged some 50,000 tons of food aid, saying the food aid is unrelated to its diplomatic efforts. But there is no clear knowledge whether the food will go to the starving people or the military.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We'll continue doing all we can that it is going to the people in need, not to the government, or the military for others who are not in need.
PILGRIM: North Korea keeps calling the shots. Yesterday it said it would return to the talks if it were treated in a, quote, "friendly manner," unquote, by the United States. But the Bush administration has already toned down the rhetoric. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who called North Korea an outpost of tyranny in her confirmation hearings is now giving assurances the United States respects North Korea's sovereignty. Today, the State Department said if North Korea doesn't have more substantive discussions, there will be an end to patience eventually.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT: We've also been very clear that this is not a process that can go on forever.
PILGRIM: But with North Korea having an estimated 6 to 8 nuclear weapons, a year can seem like forever.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The State Department today said they're continuing to work with their partners, South Korea, Japan, China and Russia, to push North Korea to come up with a date for new talks. There's also some talk that China should be doing more. It, after all, supplies North Korea with food and oil. And could make that conditional on progress in the talks -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Kitty Pilgrim. Thank you very much, Kitty.
Coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." And Anderson joins us now with a preview. Anderson, what have you got?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: A lot coming up on 360. Dramatic developments in the hunt for Natalee Holloway. The father of one of the suspects has been arrested today. He's been called a witness. Now they're saying he's a suspect. We'll have extensive coverage tonight on 360.
We're also live on Aruba. We'll talk with prosecutors and CNN's Nancy Grace. That's at the top of the hour.
ROMANS: All right. Well, I'll be watching. Thanks very much. Anderson Cooper.
Coming up, the fight against flag burning is headed to the U.S. Senate. Congressmen from both sides of the aisle will debate an issue that's gaining momentum.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly this week for a constitutional amendment to ban people from burning our flag. But the amendment does not appear to have the votes to pass in the Senate right now.
Joining us to debate the amendment, Republican Congressman John Hostettler of Indiana, who voted in favor of the amendment this week, and Democratic Congressman Jerrold Nadler of New York, who voted against it. Congressmen, thank you so much for joining us.
REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: It's a pleasure.
REP. JOHN HOSTETTLER (R), INDIANA: Good to be with you.
ROMANS: Let's start with you, Congressman Hostettler, first, Hostettler, about the idea of amending the Constitution of the United States. You don't take that lightly. But you did vote for this.
HOSTETTLER: Yes. This is actually the first and only constitutional amendment that I have voted for in my over 10 years of tenure in the House of Representatives. But I believe that the flag is a symbol of freedom and the prosperity of our country, and it is not only that symbol for American citizens, but it is a symbol known around the world, a symbol of hope, that for example, in the aftermath of 9/11, as the dust was settling, one of the first most important constructions that took place at ground zero was the construction of a pole to erect a flag from. And from that, from that initial construction, the rest of the country and the world saw a resolve. And it's that symbolism that I wish to protect.
ROMANS: Yet, Congressman Nadler, you point out that there is free speech implications here as well, and that you can be a patriotic American and respect that symbol, but also respect someone's right to burn it as a form of speech.
NADLER: Exactly right. First of all, we should only do constitutional amendments as a last resort. We've had 17 in 200 years. There is no epidemic of flag burning. When was the last time you read about someone doing that? That's number one.
But number two, if someone wants to -- you know, if -- I saw a movie the other day of British soldiers burning the Capitol and burning the White House during the War of 1812, no one went out to -- and burning your flag -- no one went out to arrest the actors. Because obviously, they weren't associating the act of burning the flag with speech, protesting some government policy. It's only when they do that that we're talking about arresting people. And the point is the Supreme Court ruled, and quite rightly, that if we value freedom of speech, it has to be speech that we don't agree with, that we find obnoxious.
ROMANS: Congressman Hostettler, one thing that people keep saying is this is a way to support our troops, this is the way to show them that we believe in what they're fighting for, but at the same time, aren't they there fighting for what that flag represents, which is freedom of speech, freedom of expression, the freedom from tyranny, and part of that whole package is the freedom to burn the symbol itself?
HOSTETTLER: Well, I don't know how we can obtain the logic that suggests that the framers of the First Amendment equated speech and the power of ideals that are elaborated through speech with destructive behavior, and sometimes violent destructive behavior.
The simple fact of the matter is our troops are at war, and many of them return to the United States, unfortunately, in caskets. And on those caskets are draped the symbol of freedom that they gave the last full measure of devotion for. And so I think that it -- while there are obviously individuals of differing opinions on both sides, with merit, I believe that it is a symbol that is worthy of protection and worthy of special recognition in the Constitution.
ROMANS: This amendment has died in the past. I just want to know, to each of you, Congressman Nadler first, do you think this is -- has any chance of making it?
NADLER: Oh, I don't know. I think the vote will be fairly close in the Senate.
ROMANS: Congressman Hostettler?
HOSTETTLER: Well, it's my hope that as senators review this issue, and their constituents make their voices heard, that we will once and for all begin to be able to protect this tremendous symbol of liberty.
ROMANS: Congressman Hostettler, Congressman Nadler, thank you so much for joining us today, gentlemen.
HOSTETTLER: Thank you.
NADLER: You're quite welcome.
ROMANS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
Plus, disturbing new details on a huge medical mess in North Carolina. What hospital workers did with what they thought was soap. That story is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: And now the results of tonight's poll. An overwhelming majority of you think that the government does not have the right to seize homes and turn them over to private developers. Ninety-nine percent of you say the government does not have that right. Only 1 percent of you agreed with the Supreme Court and said it does.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Bob in Rochester, New York: "Today's decision by the Supreme Court is appalling. There's nothing constitutional about giving the government free rein over personal property."
Dorothy of West Point, Nebraska: "The Supreme Court just delivered another big blow to the little guys, who make up most of the population of the United States, and handed government bodies and big business the green light to take any property they wish."
Tony in Tucson, Arizona: "Why is the Republican Congress wasting time on an amendment to protect the flag from being burned? Don't they get the message that their priorities are out of step with the American people? Protect our borders. Forget the flag."
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read on this broadcast will receive a copy of the book "Exporting America." Also, if you would like to receive our e-mail newsletter, you can sign up at our Web site at loudobbs.com.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. The debate over prenatal genetic testing and whether parents should be able to sue doctors if that testing is wrong.
Plus, a $1 billion shortfall is what is needed to care for our nation's veterans. One senator demanding immediate action will be our guest.
And United States Navy is the biggest and most powerful in the world, but one naval expert says our Navy is in crisis. He'll join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Christine, thanks very much.
END
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
