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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Supreme Court Nominee to Be Named; Immigration Sting in North Carolina; West Nile Virus; Chinese Military Threat
Aired July 19, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DOBBS: Wolf, thank you very much.
Good evening, everybody. In three hours, President Bush will name a successor to Sandra Day O'Connor on the U.S. Supreme Court. The president's nominee could trigger a major political fight on Capitol Hill. We'll have complete coverage for you.
And "Red Star Rising." Tonight, a new Pentagon report just released today, long delayed by dissension within the Pentagon, and politics outside of it, describes how China might defeat Taiwan before the United States could intervene. My guests are two of the most renown experts on China's rising economic and military power.
And almost two weeks after the London terrorist bombings, almost four years after September 11th, how vulnerable is the United States to radical Islamist terrorism? Admiral James Lloyd, former deputy Homeland Security secretary will be here to give us his assessment.
The top story this evening is President Bush's announcement coming up in just about three hours on his first nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court. President Bush is scheduled to make his announcement 9:00 p.m. Eastern. There is intense speculation, of course, tonight about who the president will nominate.
Suzanne Malveaux at the White House will preview the president's announcement. Ed Henry on Capitol Hill will report on the confirmation battle that likely faces any nominee. And Bill Schneider and Jeffrey Toobin will assess the huge political and legal implications of the president's choice.
We begin with Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Suzanne?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the day began with a tip that I got from someone inside of the White House who said that this was the day that President Bush was going to make that announcement. He said simply to put on your best suit -- that it was going to be a very long day and we expect it will be well into the evening.
President Bush at 9:00 in the East Room will make that announcement. We're told he will walk out with the candidate himself or herself and that he will make a brief statement, that that candidate will have his or her family with him at that time. We're also told that he will make a personal appeal to Congress to handle the nomination process in a dignified manner. Now, White House officials and those outside of the White House say the timing of this has really been sped up for a number of reasons. The president, first of all, didn't want to have the news scooped by his own announcement. Also, of course, he's been in consultations with members of Congress about their own timetable, wanted to make sure he gets this confirmation process taken care of by October.
President Bush, today, again very coy about the selection.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES(video clip): I do have a obligation to think about people from different backgrounds, but who share the same philosophy. People who will not legislate from the bench. That's what I told the people when I ran for president. I want to be known as the kind of person that does what he says he's going to do. Because I believe it's right. And so I guess the best way to put it is I'll let you know when I'm ready to tell you who it is.
MALVEAUX: Of course, the president ready to tell us this evening, Lou.
It's very interesting to note just when did he make up his mind. We're getting little bits and pieces about that. We know from various sources that he's interviewed at least eight candidates. We know over the last 72 hours, at least three of the candidates, I was also told by our source -- someone who attended the state dinner last night -- that he was joking with Clarence Thomas, saying I bet they just want to know who my pick is. And their impression was that they were proud of the selection he'd already made. Lou?
DOBBS: Suzanne, a White House immersed in a leak controversy, seems to have been very successful preventing leaks on the president's nominee. Any suggestion that there is a leak of any kind on this?
MALVEAUX: Well, what the Democrats are suggesting is that perhaps this information is coming out to take Rove and the CIA leak investigation off the front pages of the newspapers. The White House says that is not the case, but certainly Republican strategists say they are quite pleased that in fact that is exactly what has happened. Lou?
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you. Congressional Republicans say a date for confirmation hearings could be set within days of the president's announcement tonight. The Senate minority leader, Senator Harry Reid, declared the Senate will take its time in the confirmation process whomever the president nominates.
Ed Henry reports from Capitol Hill.
Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Lou. A big battle is looming regardless of who the president picks tonight. In fact, the attack machines are already cranking up on each side without a name actually circulated. Without a name -- without a name actually picked by the president. Senate Democrats issuing these talking points about Edith Clement, attacking her, saying she's been cozy with special interests. This even though we're told that Edith Clement is not going to be the pick. That's the name circulating all day but we're being told she's not going to get it. That has not stopped Democrats from putting out these talking points, charging that she in fact she would not be the right choice. Just giving you an idea of the testy battle we're expecting to face on both sides of the aisle.
Also, on the Republican side, meanwhile, last night the first inkling that anybody on the Republican side got was when Senate Judiciary Chairman Arlen Specter was called over to the White House. You could see he was chatting with White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove after that meeting with the president about the Supreme Court nomination to come. This gave Karl Rove a chance, obviously, to focus on another issue, not the CIA leak case that has been dogging the administration.
And in fact, Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid today charged that this is a deliberate attempt by this White House to shift the focus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. HARRY REID, (D) MINORITY LEADER: It's interesting how the subject has changed from the White House administrative staff to the court today, isn't it?
QUESTION: Do you think the timing of that is deliberate?
REID: I don't know. It's interesting how it's changed. I heard it was going to be next week, now it's this week. And it's been interesting. No questions here about the CIA operative being outed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now, Senate Republican Whip Mitch McConnell today said that was nonsense, that the White House has no control over what the media is independently going to cover. He also said the onus they say is now on the Democrats to not slow down this process.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R) MAJORITY WHIP (video clip): There is really no reason why we shouldn't have a new Supreme Court justice on the court by the first Monday in October. This is well within the time constraints that have typically been the case when nominations are created. So we think we'll be able to meet the president's goal of having a new member of the Supreme Court by the fall term, the first Monday in October.
HENRY: Republican leaders like Mitch McConnell say they do not even know who the president has picked. Most Republicans insist they're not upset about that. But just in the last hour Republican Senator Chuck Grassley, a senior member of the Judiciary Committee complained on CNN that he has not gotten the name yet, that they ought to know before the rest of the public.
Lou?
DOBBS: Obviously the White House disagrees. It's extraordinary that talking points are being distributed against Edith Clement when she is not the president's nominee. Who is distributing these talking points?
HENRY: Senate Democratic leadership officers are circulating these talking points going on the attack already. And what Republicans are saying -- they believe this shows regardless of who the president picks, you're going to see some Democrats, not all, but some Democrats come out and immediately say that the pick is out of the mainstream, regardless of who it is.
Lou?
DOBBS: Well, if one attacks someone who is not even the nominee, doesn't the Democratic leadership in the Senate risk looking absolutely ludicrous?
HENRY: Well, I think what Senate Democratic leaders would say that Edith Clements's name was out there most of the day. A lot of Republican senators, in fact, were circulating her name, thinking she was the pick. The Democrats wanted to prepare their side for what they see the battle ahead. But as you know, if she's not going to be the one, it's a little bit of wasted energy perhaps.
DOBBS: It's easy to forget that the Senate is considered by some to be a deliberative body. Thank you very much. Ed Henry from Capitol Hill.
Joining me now for more on the president's announcement tonight and the likely political and legal indications is Jeffrey Toobin. He is our senior legal analyst. And Bill Schneider, he is our senior political analyst.
Gentlemen, let's begin first with the politics of this. Bill Schneider, you just heard -- you've just heard Ed Henry say the Democrats are attacking a woman who isn't even the president's choice.
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Okay. Well, let's be fair about this. There was a report in the "Washington Post" about three weeks ago, even before Sandra Day O'Connor indicated her intention to resign, that said there's a conservative group out there that has an $18 million budget, and they're going to go on the air within hours of the president's designation of his choice with a heart-warming ad around the country with vintage family pictures of whoever the president picks, just to sell the nominee. They're ready to do that.
DOBBS: Well, they are. But explain to me the intelligence behind spending time, energy, money to attack someone who is not even the president's choice?
SCHNEIDER: That is a little mysterious. What they were doing was distributing talking points so the Democrats would be prepared.
Let me tell you what this is all about. It's all about the experience of Robert Bork in 1987. Bork was nominated by Ronald Reagan. Within a few hours, Senator Ted Kennedy appeared on the Senate floor and he gave a very dramatic and memorable speech called "Robert Bork's America." He described that as an America where there would be segregated lunch counters once again, an America where there would be back alley abortions. And everyone learned from that, you've got to define the nominee within the first few hours, because nobody will ever have heard of whoever the president picks tonight.
DOBBS: It was just yesterday that Democrats, some that I talked with, some of them I talked with are -- were congratulating the president on the consulting with the Democrats and trying to create consensus.
Let's turn to the issue at hand. Who will the president, Jeffrey, nominate tonight?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN ANALYST: Well, the short answer is, we don't know for sure. But there are certainly several candidates who have been talked about by people who do know. And they include the other Edith from the Fifth Circuit, Edith Jones.
DOBBS: And I should point out Jeffrey has a short list. Mr. Toobin's short list.
TOOBIN: Well, I think we can cross off the first one, I think, because we trust our colleagues, Mr. King, and Dana Bash, who -- Justice Clement appears to be off the list. But Edith Jones appears to be on the list. She is a very experienced judge. She's been on the bench since 1985 and is an experienced judge. She was interviewed by the first President Bush for the seat that went to David Souter. And she has been conservative, especially on death penalty issues.
DOBBS: Is this to make good in the eyes of the Republican Party?
TOOBIN: It certainly would be perceived by -- that way by many, because Souter is fighting words.
And speaking of Justice Souter, the word in Washington, among conservatives, is that Gonzales is Spanish for Souter. They don't like Attorney General Gonzales. They have the impression he is some big closet liberal who, as it were, comes out of the closet if he's appointed to the Supreme Court.
DOBBS: The closet liberal, the chief law enforcement officer of the land.
TOOBIN: Correct. He is someone that the conservatives are fighting against but obviously he remains a viable candidate.
DOBBS: Let's complete the list here.
TOOBIN: Okay. We've got Michael Luttig and John Roberts. Two young 50-year-old Court of Appeals judges. Luttig is in the Fourth Circuit in Richmond. John Roberts is on the D.C Circuit. Well known, well respected, very conservative. Michael McConnell, a former law professor on the Tenth Circuit, has some idiosyncratic views. Very strongly opposed to Roe v. Wade, but also opposed to the court's decision in Bush v. Gore. So somewhat unpredictable.
DOBBS: Who's your favorite choice amongst them?
TOOBIN: Edith Jones. I think President Bush came here to change things. He came to Washington to change things, and Edith Jones is the person who will change the law more than any of the rest of them.
SCHNEIDER: Oh, boy.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider?
TOOBIN: What do you think, Bill?
SCHNEIDER: That's exactly the kind of choice that could set off a bitter political fight.
DOBBS: Wait a minute, Bill. Before you go on another word, we've just heard from Ed Henry, you yourself saying, they're going to be -- there's going to be a bitter political battle no matter who the president puts forward.
SCHNEIDER: There's a difference between -- look, the president could pull off a real surprise if he nominated someone who did not set off a political battle. Remember, this president's not running for reelection. He's got to worry about his legacy. If he nominates someone -- and it could be Jones -- who has been strongly opposed to Roe v. Wade, and the public is certainly -- while they want restrictions on abortion rights, they do not want to overturn Roe v. Wade.
If he appoints someone who is a doctrinaire conservative whom Democrats can depict as too extreme, there will be a very bloody battle. It will divide the country. It will divide the Senate and endanger the president's legislative program for the next three years. Does he want to take that risk? Maybe.
DOBBS: As you say, maybe. And what is the judicial activists -- it's interesting the ranking Democrat on the judiciary committee, the chairman of the judiciary committee, Senator Leahy and of course Senator Specter, both, when I talked to both of them earlier, both of them are absolutely opposed to judicial activists, period. So that is of at least a meeting ground on the issue.
My choice as well, Jeffrey Toobin, is Edith Jones, because if Edith Clement is out, she's the only woman. And it was, after all, the first lady who said the president should be thinking about a woman on the Supreme Court.
TOOBIN: The first lady is not often defied.
DOBBS: In any household. Thank you very much, Jeffrey Toobin, Bill Schneider. Is China's military now -- is China's military now strong enough to defeat Taiwan before the United States could even respond? What should the U.S. military posture be in Asia? The new assessment of China's military threat has been delayed over three months by dissension in the Pentagon and external politics. We'll have a report for you.
And tonight, we'll show you a remarkable videotape with sounds and pictures taken by insurgents as they tried to kill one of our soldiers in Iraq. We'll show you what happened when that insurgent sniper shot an Army medic in Baghdad. And believe me, you do not want to miss this remarkable videotape.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Pentagon tonight has finally released a long delayed report, an assessment of China's rapidly increasing military power. This new report delayed by more than three months by dissension within the Pentagon, and external politics about what to include and how direct to be in the assessment.
The Pentagon assessment includes some disturbing scenarios about possible Chinese plans to defeat Taiwan before the United States could intervene.
Jamie McIntyre has our report from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The report concludes China's power and influence are growing as its double-digit increases in military spending are fueling a rapid arms buildup. The military, the report says, is focused on modernizing its forces, emphasizing preparations to fight and win short duration, high- intensity conflicts along China's periphery. But it also concludes the ability to inject power remains limited.
China, the Pentagon says, is at a strategic crossroads.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: China is on a path where they're determined to increase their economy, the opportunities for their people, and to enter the world community. They want the Olympics to go well. They've been doing a number of things to try to leave the world with the impression that they're a good place for investment, and a good economic partner.
MCINTYRE: But the Pentagon report also finds China's military is primarily focused on preventing Taiwan's independence or trying to compel Taiwan to negotiate a settlement on Beijing's terms. And building counters to third-party -- including potential U.S. -- intervention in cross-straits crises.
The most provocative section of the report outlines possible military strategies China might employ to defeat Taiwan before the U.S. could intervene. Among the possible attack scenarios -- detonating a high altitude nuclear burst to intimidate its leaders; a surprise saturation short range missile and air attack aimed at breaking Taiwan's will to fight; a naval blockade closing Taiwan's ports and forcing ships to stop at the mainland for inspection.
And the least likely option? An all-out amphibious invasion, which is still considered beyond China's current capabilities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (on camera): Lou, the report's only been out for a couple of hours. I've been thumbing through the report. It has sobering statistics, that China has deployed between 650 and 730 short range missiles opposite of Taiwan and they are increasing that deployment at the rate of 100 missiles a year.
By the way, the Pentagon disputes there was any internal dissension about what to include in the report. They insist that one of the main reasons it was delayed is that they didn't want to release it while Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was in China.
Lou?
DOBBS: Of course, the secretary of State was not in China for the past better than three months while this report was delayed. I will, of course, defer to your official spokesman there at the Pentagon. But it's not reassuring to see the United States Department of Defense miss a deadline by three months on something so critically important as this assessment.
Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, from the Pentagon.
Later here I'll be talking with two of the country's leading experts on China's rising and economic and military power. They are Richard D'Amata, the chairman of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, and Frank Gaffney, the founder and president of the Center for Security Policy.
It is not often that we can tell you a story about an attack on one of our soldiers in Iraq that ends in absolute failure for the insurgents. But tonight we can report how one soldier from the 3rd Infantry Division survived a sniper attack, and it was all videotaped by the insurgents themselves.
Private Stephen Tschiderer was standing next to his Humvee. You see him shot there. He was shot in the chest. And he fell to the ground. But his body armor took the full force of that bullet. And Private Tsciderer, as you saw there, immediately rose to his feet and identified the sniper's position.
PFC STEPHEN TSCHIDERER, 3RD ID (video clip): I opened up my vest and I'm like, whew! No blood. Good to go. Let's go get them.
DOBBS: And go get them, he did. Other soldiers and Humvees quickly joined the hunt for the sniper. Private Tschiderer himself caught the sniper who was now injured. And he tended to the insurgent's wounds.
Private Tsciderer is due to return home in September. And he says now he's counting the days. All of the best.
Coming up next here, a global heat wave, dangerous extreme weather throughout Europe, a drought with record heat. And record heat pummeling the southwestern United States as well. We'll take a global tour of weather in the extreme.
And West Nile virus. The mosquito-borne illness continues to move westward. Since 1999 -- the virus first identified that year in this country -- it's caused hundreds of deaths. We'll have a special report on the deadly virus and spread to the western part of the country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Health officials are increasingly concerned about a deadly outbreak of the West Nile virus in the western part of the country this summer. The mosquito-borne illness is spreading and the cases could explode in the judgment of those health officials.
The Centers for Disease Control has reported 25 cases of West Nile so far this year in 11 states. But by the end of the summer, health officials are saying the number of cases could reach well into the thousands.
Casey Wian reports from Corona, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These chickens in Corona, California, are known as sentinels, scattered throughout the area and periodically tested for West Nile virus. During the first six months of this year, local mosquito control officials found just one positive test. But in the latest two-week period, seven chickens tested positive for the potentially deadly virus.
DR. JOANNA ROSALES, N.W. MOSQUITO & VECTOR CONT. DIST.: We are preparing for the worst, because we are underestimating the virus.
WIAN: Last year West Nile killed seven people in Riverside and San Bernardino Counties. There were more than 300 non-fatal human cases here, and 800 statewide. Now, local officials are worried this year could be even worse, and they're warning the public to take precautions. Those include eliminating standing water in back yards, using mosquito repellent, and wearing long sleeved shirts and long pants at dawn and dusk. An abnormally wet winter and hot summer may be contributing to the rapid spread of West Nile.
DR. VICKI KRAMER, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES: The wet winter and spring certainly has created ample habitat for mosquitoes. Now that we have the hot temperatures here, we really have a good mix in terms of West Nile virus transmission.
WIAN: West Nile is spreading rapidly in other California counties as well. And mosquito control officials are beginning to find the virus in more species of animals. Health officials say they're doing everything they can to slow the spread. Now they're calling on the public to do its part. West Nile virus first appeared in the United States in 1999, in New York. It spread rapidly. And by 2003, there were nearly 10,000 cases and 264 deaths.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (on camera): Now, to date, nationally 650 people have been killed by West Nile virus. But since 2003, aggressive mosquito eradication efforts have cut the annual numbers dramatically in most areas of the country. But here in the West, health officials fear West Nile virus could still be on the rise.
Lou?
DOBBS: Casey Wian, thank you.
Coming up next here -- Red storm -- China is aggressively building its military power while at the same time trying to take over an American oil company. Two national security experts will be here to tell us why the United States can simply not allow China to take control of Unocal and why the United States must be realistic in its assessments of the Chinese military and political challenge to this country.
Immigration reform, the focus of no fewer than three new bills now in Congress. Why is Congress taking on an issue that the federal government in all forms has all but ignored for years? We'll have a special report. I'll be joined by two U.S. senators who proposed a reasonable and workable solution.
And homeland insecurity. Is the federal government doing enough to protect all of us? A former top national security official is our guest here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The illegal alien crisis has become a number one concern for congressional constituents. But there's still a very big question as to whether any form of immigration reform can pass Congress this year.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: For years Congress has been out of step with public opinion on immigration. But now lawmakers are responding to the loud cries to fix our nation's broken borders with three competing bills.
SEN. JOHN KYL, (R) AZ: We're going to return to the rule of law. We're going to have to substantially reform our laws.
SYLVESTER: Senators John McCain and Ted Kennedy offer a generous program for illegal aliens. Visas for new low-skilled workers. Current illegal aliens would also be eligible for visas and eventually green cards. Senators John Cornyn and John Kyl. Ten thousand new Border Patrol agents, 10,000 new detention beds, fraud resistant Social Security cards, increased penalties for employers, under their guest worker program employers must first certify no Americans are available. And current aliens would have to leave the U.S. to apply for permanent status.
Representative Tom Tancredo's proposal goes even further. Guest workers allowed in only after new enforcement measures are in place. Unlawful presence in the country would be a felony. And the U.S. military could be used to support Border Patrol agents.
REP. TOM TANCREDO, (R) COLORADO: Cheap labor is cheap for the employer. It is not cheap to the taxpayer. It costs us a fortune.
SYLVESTER: In 1986 the White House granted amnesty to three million illegal aliens, but did not fulfill a promise to tighten enforcement. Since then, the illegal population has surged to an estimated 10 to 20 million. Now U.S. taxpayers are tired of the drain on local schools, hospitals and other services.
ROY BECK, NUMBERS USA: Amalgamation is staring to cause so much problems in so many communities that politicians are feeling the heat.
SYLVESTER: All of the bill sponsors are hoping to get their version on a fast track through Congress, but realistically, with the Supreme Court nomination it could be next year before the legislation is taken up. Even still, lawmakers will continue to press forward. As Senator Cornyn said today, we are a nation of immigrants but we are also a nation of laws.
Lou?
DOBBS: Absolutely, Lisa. And Senator Cornyn and Senator Kyl, as you reported, today introducing their immigration reform legislation. And it is legislation that is bound to attack special interest groups, particularly particularly Hispanic activist groups seeking open borders in effect, and of course, big business, which are the crux of the issue, because they're the ones hiring illegal aliens.
Thank you very much, Lisa.
Well just what kind of political heat are Senator Cornyn and Senator Kyl expecting to face as a result of taking on big business and those several Hispanic activist groups that are demanding open borders and amnesty?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: If we're ever going to get to some of the root causes of illegal immigration, we have to concern ourselves with the economic circumstances in places like Mexico and Central America.
What this does is serve our national interest from the standpoint of increased security. It deals with our economic needs in terms of the work. But it also, I think, helps to address some of the root causes of illegal immigration by encouraging people to return with the savings and skills they've acquired in the United States.
DOBBS: Senator Cornyn -- before you answer Senator Kyl, let me again say, you've already sold me, gentlemen, I'll tell you right now.
SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: Well, good.
DOBBS: You're establishing, with this legislation, if it's enacted as it is right now, it seems to me, you're removing illegal employers from the equation; eliminating the exploitation of disadvantaged, illegal labor. You're restoring dignity to those who are working hard, most working very hard in this country. And you're insisting on respect for U.S. laws and our national security. Those are all good things.
But as I said, Senator Kyl, these things are at odds with the agenda and the initiatives of Hispanic activist groups, some of them, and certainly big business in this country and corporate interests.
What is the reaction you're feeling right now?
KYL: Well, we haven't had reaction in the couple of hours that we've -- after we've announced our intention to file this bill. But let me just address both.
First of all, with respect to those who want amnesty, they're going to be very disappointed in our bill. We do not have amnesty. If you want to become a legal permanent resident in the United States, if you want to eventually apply to become a citizen here, you've got to go home and get in line and wait your turn just like everybody else. You can't use your time here in order to get that, if you came here illegally.
Now with regard to big business, they have been exploiting people, and in effect, the taxpayers have been subsidizing their businesses when they're able to pay at a lower rate, but we end up paying the education, the health care, the law enforcement costs, and the rest.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
KYL: That's going to stop. They're going to have to pay these people what the market will bear if there's not an American to get the job. And when we have the system in place that can verify employment to a virtual certainty, if they are ever caught hiring anybody illegally, the fines are incredibly severe.
And by the way, on the illegal immigrant, you can't come back in. You're going to be removed from the U.S., and you can't come back for 10 years.
So we have a combination of both carrots, but also sticks in this legislation. Those who like amnesty aren't going to like our bill. Those who want to exploit people aren't going to like our bill. We think the American people will like it just fine. DOBBS: It sounds like it. Let me ask you, how does the Senate leadership, or particularly the majority leader like it? And what do you think the odds are of passage?
KYL: Well, first let me say, the majority leader was a little bit misunderstood when he -- when it made it appear as if he he's not going to bring the issue up. He wants to bring it up before the end of the year. He's just not ready to make a commitment that this subject will be dealt with before the end of the year. But he's made a commitment that it will be dealt with within the next 12 months, anyway. And we do need to do that.
With respect to its chances for passage, I'll let Senator Cornyn speculate. I think it'll be a conglomeration of all the different ideas, all the different bills that have been introduced that finally ends up being passed.
CORNYN: One of the benefits, I think, of producing this bill, though, is I think we have, by virtue of the research and the work that we've done and our staffs have done, we provide a foundation and a framework for people then to work from.
Frankly, there are a lot of people who haven't studied this issue very much, and they are puzzled, as many are, about how do we deal with this. Well we, I think, in this bill, provide a pathway for those who are interested in finding a solution. I think there are some people who may not be interested in finding a solution, but we are. And that's what this bill represents.
DOBBS: And I know you gentlemen, in addition to being politically courageous in putting forward this bill and doing a great public service on one of the most complicated issues facing this society. You're also being, within the Senate confines, politically constrained in suggesting that the majority leader should require a full year in which to take on this issue. We will leave your words as the final words on that issue.
Thank you very much, gentlemen. Congratulations.
CORNYN: Thanks, Lou.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you support the immigration reform legislation proposed today by Senators Cornyn and Kyl, yes or no? Cast your vote at LOUDOBBS.com. We'll have the results, of course, later here.
Coming up, a sting operation. Dozens of illegal aliens caught. Instead of hailing it as a success, some in Washington are absolutely furious. They're very upset with the stunning example of actually making the laws work. And we'll show you a stunning example of how bureaucracy makes it almost impossible to make progress on our broken borders. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: In North Carolina, a recent crackdown on illegal aliens has turned into an ugly bureaucratic battle between government agencies. It began as a good old-fashioned sting operation where 48 illegal aliens were arrested. Now the Occupational Safety and Health Administration is furious. But immigration officials say they were only doing their job.
Christine Romans has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These men were all working illegally at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina. Forty eight illegal aliens came for what they thought was a workplace safety seminar and instead were arrested by federal immigration agents -- a good old-fashioned federal sting that's causing a good old-fashioned turf battle in Washington.
In a statement, OSHA complained - quote -- "This is not something we were involved in, and we do not condone the use of OSHA's name in this type of activity."
Immigration and Customs Enforcement acknowledged that more inter- agency coordination was needed. But ICE strongly defended its method, saying such tactics are effective and used by federal law enforcement every day.
The sting was part of a nationwide crackdown on illegal hiring at such high-risk facilities as airports and military bases. An effort, some say, that is too critical to be derailed by bureaucratic squabbling.
WILLIAM GHEEN, AMERICANS FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION: We'd like for Immigrations and Customs Enforcement to be able to arrest as many illegal aliens as they would like in the workplace, especially in our nuclear power plants and military bases, without worrying about some bureaucrat releasing their safe arrest techniques.
ROMANS: The Air Force base is home to the Air Force's Fourth Fighter Wing, which includes a large number of fighter jets and other sophisticated military aircraft.
REP. JOHN DUNCAN (R), GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: Every department and agency in the federal government should be working together and this was an effort to have stricter enforcement or better enforcement at some of our nuclear and chemical and military facilities. And certainly, I think almost everybody in the country wants stronger enforcement.
ROMANS: But labor leaders and immigrant groups are outraged. They say illegals will be even less likely to report workplace injuries and safety violations, fearing deportation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: They say it'll have a chilling effect on workplace safety. But the irony, critics say, is the way to make work sites safer is by not hiring illegal labor.
Lou?
DOBBS: This is incredible. I mean, the fact that OSHA -- who at OSHA is being so precious about their agency?
ROMANS: They want to make sure the spokesman of that company -- that organization wants to make sure that they're not using OSHA to lure illegal aliens in...
DOBBS: Right. Well, would they come on and talk with us?
ROMANS: Nobody will come on and talk to us, Lou. Nobody involved in this story really wants to come on and talk with us, not even the immigrant groups and some of the labor leaders who are really concerned about illegal aliens. This is a kind of a hot story. They want it to go away. Everyone just kind of wants this story to go away.
DOBBS: In other words, what they're really saying is they do not want Immigration and Customs Enforcement to be effective and enforce the laws...
ROMANS: Absolutely.
DOBBS: ... is what they're really saying. I don't blame them for not coming on. Thank you very much, Christine Romans.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
DOBBS: "Broken Borders". A coalition of Texas border sheriffs met in Houston today. The sheriffs, alarmed about proposed cuts in federal assistance for local law enforcement at a time when they're already overwhelmed due to the steady influx of illegal aliens pouring over the U.S.-Mexican border. They want more, not less federal help.
Bill Tucker joins me now live from Houston, Texas -- Bill?
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this meeting of the Texas Border Sheriffs Coalition is, frankly, a meeting of law enforcement officials who are being overwhelmed by the failure of policymakers to commit resources to immigration enforcement. And they tell us that failure is creating some dangerous problems.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIGIFREDO GONZALEZ, CHAIRMAN, BORDER SHERIFFS COALITION: There are counties in our coalition that have, you know, 180 miles of border with Mexico and they've got maybe five or six deputy sheriffs to take care of the local problems; local law enforcement. And then in addition to that, they also have to worry about what should belong to the federal government, about protecting our border.
And I'm not talking about immigration issues, but other things that happen along the border -- drug trafficking, things like this. Or things on top of their local responsibilities to their local taxpayers, they've also got to respond to these calls. And it's something that, again, I reiterate, it's very unfair to the local taxpayers for this type of thing.
SHERIFF LEO SAMANIEGO, EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS: What happens on the border or what doesn't happen on the border is going to affect the rest of the country. Now, we're reading about what's going on at North Carolina and several other states where they have an influx of illegal aliens that are coming in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER: It's a simple equation, Lou. You can do the math. They come across the border. They get into the country. The sheriffs are also furious about the catch-and-release policy at the federal level, where they point out the OTMs that come into this country are not subject to identity verification. They're not subject to criminal background checks and they are not screened for diseases. Their primary concerns -- terrorism, drug smuggling and weapon smuggling across the border.
Lou?
DOBBS: In other words, it's a mess.
TUCKER: It is.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much. Bill Tucker.
TUCKER: Yes.
DOBBS: Coming up next, my guests, two of the country's leading experts on China's rising military and economic power.
And nearly two weeks after the London bombings, nearly four years after September 11th, how vulnerable does this country remain to a radical Islamist terrorist attack? My guest is Admiral James Loy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We have just received word tonight that China is reportedly giving up on its efforts to take over Maytag. Reuters reporting China's Haier group has dropped its bid for Maytag just after Whirlpool entered the bidding.
Meanwhile, China continues its bid to take over Unocal. Unocal's board is meeting tonight to consider the $18.5 billion bid from China's CNOOC oil company. California-based Unocal has already accepted, however, a $16 billion bid from Chevron. We'll see what happens.
That meeting comes as the Pentagon today finally released its long-delayed report on China's aggressive military growth and potential threat.
My guests tonight have repeatedly warned about that growth and the severe consequences. Richard D'Amato says a takeover would push the United States closer to an energy train wreck, should the Unocal deal go through for CNOOC. He's the chairman of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission.
Frank Gaffney says the bid is part of China's strategy to overtake the United States as the world's premier economic and military power -- the president of the Center for Security Policy.
Good to have you both here.
RICHARD D'AMATO, CHMN., U.S.-CHINA COMMISSION: Good to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's go first, if we may, to the report just released hours ago, finally, the assessment from the Pentagon on the Chinese threat. Your reaction -- your reaction, Dick, first?
D'AMATO: Well, I think that China is -- believes it is an economic superpower and wants the military forces to go with it. We can't really blame them for that, but the question is what they are going to do with them and particularly with regard to Taiwan.
Most of the military buildup is in reference to Taiwan and in reference to trying to deter an American defense of Taiwan. This is what is troublesome for us. We have a commitment to defend Taiwan. Taiwan has said it's not going to declare its independence and so the status quo should remain as such and we ought to make sure Chinese understands that our commitment is worthy.
DOBBS: Frank, your thoughts?
FRANK GAFFNEY, PRES., CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: I have not had a chance to read this report yet, Lou. Dick and I testified last week before the House Armed Services Committee
DOBBS: Right.
GAFFNEY: And I made the point that I thought it was absolutely outrageous that this report, which had been kicking around the Pentagon and the inter-agency process for the past, I don't know, better part of a year, I think...
DOBBS: A few months.
GAFFNEY: Certainly the few months in review, was being suppressed. It was being watered down. People were clearly concerned it was too alarmist.
Well, I don't know how much of that survived. I hope enough did to really awaken the American people to the military component of this strategy.
As you said, it's got an economic component clearly. But it also has, I think, the desire to put China in a position to defeat us, militarily, if the need arises. And I think that ought to be of real concern to us as we look at these deals, not as microcosmic transactions, but as part of that larger strategy.
DOBBS: The comments from the Chinese general, Zhu Chenghu, who said that China, as a matter of policy, would strike with nuclear weapons. People have tried to -- people at the State Department, various other parts of the administration have tried to water that down. But it turns out from all of the witnesses and all of the later assessments that this general is in good standing, has been promoted repeatedly over the last several years -- twice last year. What are we to make of that -- Dick?
D'AMATO: Well, it's hard to know what to make of that. I mean, he could be a hot dog or he could be speaking off the cuff. And he could maybe not have the -- hopefully will not have the blessing of the political leadership when he says that. But the question is whether or not the political and military leadership are together on their attitude toward the United States. That kind of bravado is very dangerous and is irresponsible.
DOBBS: Frank, is the U.S. government of one mind and one view about the Chinese potential threat that exists, and the strategy to employ in responding to that threat?
GAFFNEY: No. The short answer is, no. Just back on the general. The Chinese, I think, are of one mind on this. They've been saying for years that war with the United States is inevitable. This is just the latest of a number of such statements that it would involve nuclear weapons.
China does not have 100 or 200 nuclear warheads to attack America's cities, so it makes me think that they're talking about a very frightening prospect, an electromagnetic pulse attack against this country, which a commission last year said would be catastrophic.
We're divided. We're not seeing this as the strategic problem that it is emerging to be. You have certainly people who think as long as we just trade with them, all will be well. I think there are sensible people who realize that's not necessarily so.
DOBBS: We're not even trading well with them. Huge deficits, $162 billion last year. The fact is, going after Unocal, as you gentlemen testified before the House Armed Services Committee last week, this is -- it makes no sense from a strategic, economic view. It makes no sense from a national security point of view. Is Congress now awakened to that? I know certainly that Chairman Duncan Hunter is.
D'AMATO: He is. I think that the House has voted overwhelmingly against this proposal. And as I understand it, Byron Dorgan is going to go on the Senate floor and get a vote on this in the next couple of weeks in the Senate. I expect a big majority against it in the Senate. So I think the Congress is going to put a stone wall up against this. And frankly, under those circumstances, I think that CNOOC ought to withdraw its proposal.
DOBBS: Dick, Frank, just mentioned Congress. And certainly anyone interested in the welfare of this country hopes he is right. Where is the administration in this? GAFFNEY: To be -- Lou, I think the administration is divided, as I said. There's certainly many in the administration who have carried the water for China for some time, saying it's helping us on North Korea. It's helping us in the war on terror. It's an important trade partner. It's buying up a lot of our T-bills. We just cannot confront them, or rile them up.
There are others -- and I think many -- increasingly in the national security circles of this administration, who recognize that whether we say it or not, China is emerging with a strategy, as I said, to displace us economically, but also to defeat us militarily should the need arise.
Sun Tzu said, "beat your enemy without going to war." I think China hopes to put itself in a position to do that. But it's clearly arming in such a way as to defeat us militarily should they become convinced that that's necessary. The executive branch, I think, needs to listen to Congress and its concerns.
DOBBS: Frank Gaffney, Dick D'Amato, thank you very much.
D'AMATO: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Good to hear.
GAFFNEY: Thank you very much for your help on this, Lou.
DOBBS: Up next, homeland insecurity. Are the nation's subways and trains as safe from terrorism as our airports and aircraft? Former Homeland Security official Admiral Loy is our guest, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The deadly bombings in London have raised concerns about the threat of terrorism against the world's transportation centers. After September 11th, the focus was on aviation security.
My guest tonight is urging that the government balance this attention to all forms of transportation.
Joining me now from Washington, Admiral James Loy, former deputy secretary of Homeland Security. Admiral Loy also the first administrator for the Transportation Security Administration.
Good to have you with us, Admiral.
ADM. JAMES LOY, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Good to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: Transportation in this country, we've spent, what, $18 billion on air security. A commensurate amount obviously is not available for mass transit. What are we to do?
LOY: Well, I think the notion of balance, as you opined in the opening here, is the right word. Secretary Chertoff in his announcements last week has refocused on transportation security as something that's extraordinarily important for his administration and his continuation of this administration in this new department. And the balance of transportation modes -- whether it's mass transit, highways, rail, pipelines, ports, in addition to the focus that we've placed on aviation security -- can be balanced both from a monetary standpoint, but also from a risk standpoint.
We have to understand just what the threat is to these various modes, and then devise that algorithm that lets us balance the effort against all of them.
DOBBS: That algorithm, as you put it, does not include at this point border security to any meaningful degree. Why in the world is the Homeland Security Department -- I understand it is a large, it is a massive bureaucracy, with all sorts of charters -- but border security, it seems just a matter of common sense, should be a priority, the priority in point in fact, along with our ports, in Homeland Security. Why is it not?
LOY: Well, I think it's the competition of lots of number ones. The whole idea of aviation security, of course, in the immediate wake of 9/11 was the number one priority. But we all have our nightmare scenarios, whether it's about ports or border crossings. And this notion of a layered security approach to these various challenges are where we have to go. And again, last week, Secretary Chertoff was right on point in terms of focusing, that border security was one of those things that he has to deal in an integrated basis, as opposed to individual initiatives that have sort of been the cause so far.
DOBBS: Admiral Loy, when you -- and I'm going to ask you this straight up -- with your experience, your reputation for keenness of analysis and straightforwardness, what keeps you awake at night now as you assess homeland security and our vulnerabilities?
LOY: Well, I think it's all about the fact that we must now be in the risk management business. Risk at its root is about the likelihood of something happening times the consequences if it actually occurs. And for me, that drives you towards the consequence side of that equation.
And so WMD, nuclear, bio, chemical, and I always add cyber to that array of challenges because of its omnipresence across almost everything we do in life these days.
DOBBS: And it must -- it must disturb you as much as it does, I think, most Americans to think that this country, nearly four years after September 11th, has to commit some sort of budgetary triage in order to carry out homeland security.
Admiral Loy, we thank you for being here.
LOY: Thanks for having me on.
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 66 percent of you say you support the immigration reform legislation today proposed by Senators Cornyn and Kyl. And finally tonight, "New York Times" correspondent and Pulitzer Prize winner Judith Miller has now spent 13 days in jail for her refusal to disclose her confidential sources in the White House leak case -- a story she never wrote about.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. President Bush's first-ever choice for the Supreme Court. We'll have the very latest reaction from all around the country, analysis. And Senator Jeff Sessions, a member of the Judiciary Committee, is our guest. And the last chance to kill CAFTA. American farmers and ranchers urging the House to do just that.
Please join us. Thanks for being here tonight. For all of us, good night from New York.
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