Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Deadly Heat Wave; Terror Hunt; North Korea's Defiance
Aired July 27, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, British police arrest a suspected radical Islamist terrorist who may have planted a bomb in a subway station. We'll have a live report for you from London.
President Bush goes to Capitol Hill, pushing a so-called free trade agreement with Central America. Congressional Republican leaders are planning to do their business in the dark of night. A midnight vote planned. My guests, two congressmen on opposite sides of this CAFTA debate.
I'll also be talking with one of the world's leading economists, Nobel Prize-winning Joseph Stiglitz, about so-called free trade, the energy bill, and, of course, CAFTA.
The successful launch of the Shuttle Discovery left some of the orbiter's heat tiles damaged. How many, how critical? We'll have a full report for you tonight.
Our top story, the deadly heat wave in many parts of this country. This evening, heat advisories are in effect in many areas from New York to the District of Columbia, to North and South Carolina. The heat wave is being blamed for more than 40 deaths across the entire country. In Phoenix, Arizona, the temperature again more than 100 degrees today, while temperatures along Eastern states were in the high 90s.
We have three reports tonight. Vanessa Welch in Raleigh, North Carolina; Lisa Sylvester is in Washington; and Adaora Udoji is in New York.
We begin with Vanessa Welch of CNN affiliate WTDV in Raleigh -- Vanessa.
VANESSA WELCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We broke a record for the second straight day. We hit 102 degrees here in Raleigh, North Carolina. It hasn't been this hot here in almost three years.
It is extremely humid. So when you factor in the heat index, it feels more like 111 degrees outside.
The heat is making many people sick and is likely to blame for at least two deaths in our area. Many people are cooling off at the pool today because we are under an excessive heat warning here in Raleigh- Durham, North Carolina. There is some good news. Relief is right around the corner. Forecasters are calling for the lower 90s tomorrow, which is much closer to the average for this time of year.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Vanessa Welch, thank you.
Heat and humidity not the only problems affecting Washington, D.C. There is also a severe thunderstorm watch tonight.
Lisa Sylvester has the latest for us from Washington -- Lisa.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, those thunderstorms are expected to roll through here. And they will bring some relief, but they will also bring lightning and winds gusting at 70 miles per hour.
Now, this is the second day of excessive heat here in the Washington, D.C., area; 99 degrees, but it feels a lot like 107. The heat, excessive heat warning remains in effect until 8:00 tonight. And the elderly and the young are particularly susceptible. They're urged to stay indoors if at all possible.
Other folks are finding great ways to beat the heat. Ice cream sounds like a good idea on a day like this. Also, tourists, they have found the best way to get around, shorts, T-shirts and flip-flops.
And one thing to note is the Capitol Hill Police, individuals who have to be outside working like the Capitol Hill Police, they are wearing heavy body armor, these bulletproof vests because of the heightened alert. Very hot for them, very difficult for them.
And I should also mention, too, that Pepco, the local electricity, the utility company, they are urging conservation. They are expecting to hit new records of peak demand. So one of the things they're trying to tell folks is to keep the blinds down, to keep the curtains closed, and that that's one way to conserve energy.
Reporting live in Washington. Back to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa Sylvester. Thank you very much. Perhaps that thunderstorm will break those temperatures.
Here in New York City, the soaring temperatures leading to record power usage. Utility companies have now asked New Yorkers to conserve energy.
Adaora Udoji is in Midtown Manhattan and has the report for us -- Adaora.
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Lou.
I think we have a serious storm brewing. We've got the clouds coming in, and of course that would be some welcome relief, because, as you said, we've been suffering some serious heat, setting records actually here in New York City. The National Weather Center says we hit 100 at LaGuardia Airport today. And, of course, you tag on some humidity, so it felt much, much hotter than that.
The city has opened cooling centers for people to go that don't have air conditioning. Also urging people to stay inside and drink lots of water.
And as you noted, the demand for electricity, they have just continued to hit records the past two days. The latest one at 5:00 today. Only 99 homes lost any electricity in the last two days. That's really a small number when you consider the millions who are using great amounts of electricity during this really hot time.
Fortunately, there have been no reported heat-related deaths. And all around, just been a miserable day. The subways have been simply like an inferno.
But the city's pools are staying open an hour later tonight. And here, no heat, Lou. The Yankees are going to be taking on the Minnesota Twins tonight at 7:00.
And as I said, there is a severe thunderstorm warning, and we're expecting that to roll through and bring us some cool temperatures behind that. And that is good news.
DOBBS: Which New Yorkers and much of the East Coast would gladly take. Thank you very much. Adaora Udoji.
Turning now to London, the hunt for radical Islamists in Britain. Police have arrested a suspected terrorist who may have taken part in last Thursday's failed bomb attacks in London. Officers have also found 12 unexploded bombs in a car that has been linked to the bomb attacks in London on July 7, attacks that killed more than 50 people.
Jonathan Mann reports now from London -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the man they have now is named Yasin Hassan Omar, one of the four men that police here were looking for in connection with last Thursday's botched bombings. He's a 24-year-old Somali who didn't want to go easily. When police did surprise him before dawn this morning, he resisted arrest. They used a Taser to subdue him long enough to grab him and bring him in for interrogation.
Now, it might be interesting to note that he came here in 1992 at the age of 11, when his family left their own war-torn country. Now, if police are to be believed, Omar has brought a different kind of war here.
Even after he was in police hands, their investigation of his apartment, their search, continued, and they found what they believed to be was a suspicious package. Fearing that it, too, might be an explosive, they evacuated the area. About 100 families had to get out of the way while they looked at the package and tried to figure out what to do with it. While that was going on, Omar was brought here to London to Paddington Green Police Station, which is where I'm speaking to you from. This is where they have interrogated IRA terror suspects in the past, where the British prisoners at Guantanamo Bay were released to when they were first let out of Cuba and allowed to return home.
This police station is where you end up when you're in big trouble in the United Kingdom. And this is where Yasin Hassan Omar is right now -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jonathan Mann from London. Thank you.
A federal judge in Seattle today sentenced the so-called millennium bomber to 22 years in prison. Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian convicted of plotting to attack Los Angeles Airport on the eve of the new millennium. Ressam was captured on the border of Canada in December of 1999. The trunk of his car was filled with bomb-making material.
North Korea today declared it will not give up its nuclear weapons unless the United States removes any nuclear threat from the Korean peninsula. The North Korean government has refused to make any concessions whatsoever at the six-country nuclear talks in Beijing.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Show me. The United States says North Korea must prove it is dismantling its nuclear program before it gets security guarantees on energy. But North Korea says it won't make the first move.
SEAN MCCORMACK, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: They have to make a choice, and that choice is to give up their nuclear program.
PILGRIM: Despite the rough start, U.S. negotiators try to appear upbeat.
CHRISTOPHER HILL, ASSIST. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's complicated, and there's a lot of work that we all have to do. But I think there's also a real spirit that we should really try to accomplish something.
PILGRIM: U.S. negotiators have said they're willing to stay for weeks if necessary to hammer out an agreement. This time, North Korea seems intent on calling the shots.
After a flurry of meetings, North Korea called the U.S. position "unreasonable." North Korea likes to pretend the United States is being hostile and use that excuse to stall the talks for a year.
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice months ago tried once again to dispel the false claim, saying the U.S. recognizes North Korea's sovereignty.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States has stated repeatedly, President Bush, I've stated it, that we have no intention to attack or invade North Korea.
PILGRIM: The U.S. State Department today repeated the whole deal rests on North Korea being willing to dismantle all of its nuclear program, what it admits to and the secret enriched uranium program it still denies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, while diplomats talk about narrowing the differences, North Korea keeps demanding. For example, North Korea last week said as another condition it wanted to replace the 1953 armistice at the end of the Korean War with a formal peace treaty -- Lou.
DOBBS: You could not help but be struck by Secretary Hill with his forbearance, his restraint and his frustration.
PILGRIM: And determination, I think, too.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
Nuclear defiance from Iran as well today. Iran's president declared Iran will start -- restart uranium reprocessing, whatever the outcome of nuclear talks with Europe. Uranium reprocessing is of course a key step in the manufacture of nuclear weapons.
At the same time, Iran's defense minister told the Associated Press that Iran has fully developed solid fuel technology for is missiles. Solid fuel technology would enable Iran to launch missiles much more quickly than before.
Still ahead, President Bush's last-minute push for CAFTA. Opponents vow to fight CAFTA until the end. We'll have the latest for you on the CAFTA vote. The House appears determined to do its business in the dark of night. The vote could come at midnight.
And the Space Shuttle Discovery damaged on takeoff. Urgent inspections under way 140 miles above the planet.
And twisted language, why so few of us are talking straight about America's problems anymore. Is it political correctness? Is it just simply perversion? We'll have a special report tonight on our nation's communication breakdown, whether accidental or otherwise.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today went to Capitol Hill ahead of the vote that will either save or kill the Central American Free Trade Agreement. Republican House leaders say after the president's visit, they finally have enough votes to pass CAFTA.
Ed Henry reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With key initiatives like Social Security reform stalled, President Bush made a rare visit to Capitol Hill to rally his own party behind a struggling trade pact. Republicans emerged fired up, insisting the free trade deal will help the United States by shoring up emerging democracies in Central America.
REP. BILL THOMAS (R), CHAIRMAN, WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE: Why in the world should people stick to the path of democracy if supposedly the richest, most generous democracy in the world rejects a trade agreement with these countries?
HENRY: But Democrats shot back the deal is bad for America and will lead to more lost manufacturing jobs.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: The American people will know in a very clear way the difference between how the Democrats are fighting for them and how the Republicans are ignoring their aspirations.
HENRY: Republican leaders countered the pact will create jobs and guaranteed victory.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: It will be a tough vote, but we will pass CAFTA tonight. We will -- we will honor our commitments to our neighbors to the south. We will protect our national security, and we will do it all with very few Democrats.
HENRY: But the president is facing major defections in his own ranks, so the Republican leadership has resorted to wheeling and dealing on the highway bill, promising roads and bridges to scrounge up votes. But that has not swayed Republican opponents worried it will decimate the textile and sugar industries.
REP. WALTER JONES (R), NORTH CAROLINA: If we don't protect the jobs in America, one day the flags that cover the coffins of the brave who die for this country, the flags that cover those coffins might say "Made in China" or "Made in Honduras." Let's save America and, God help us, save America, and let's do what's right and kill this enemy that's called CAFTA.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: The wheeling and dealing will continue into the wee small hours. We're not expecting a vote until around midnight.
You will remember what happened the last time there was a middle- of-the-night vote that the House Republicans had over a major initiative. It was a Medicare prescription drug bill a couple of years ago. They broke enough arms, promised enough bridges. It wasn't pretty, but they got the job done -- Lou.
DOBBS: A couple of things, Ed, quickly. This president said that he wasn't going to accept that highway bill because it was too much money, and you're saying the administration's larding it up?
HENRY: Yes, the administration, though, feels they were able to cut it about 5 percent from where Congress had it a couple of months ago. It's still pretty fat with pork, but it's a little bit smaller.
DOBBS: And this midnight vote, I mean, a lot of arm twisting, a lot of pork being handed out, and this involves just about $30 billion in total trade. Why is this so important to this administration to put through what as many critics call just another outsourcing deal that will cost American jobs?
HENRY: One simple reason, Lou. This president is having a very difficult time on Capitol Hill right now. I mentioned Social Security reform, even the John Bolton nomination. He needs a legislative victory right now.
White House pushing very hard to get that. And it's very interesting. They're not selling it as an economic issue. Instead, they're selling it as a national security issue. And that's because they realize the opposition is pretty fierce on economic grounds -- Lou.
DOBBS: Even to the point of saying that this will influence how our trade relationship -- if you can call it a relationship -- with China is shaped in the future. Thank you very much. Ed Henry.
We'll have much more ahead on CAFTA, including a debate between two of the most vocal congressmen on opposing sides of the so-called free trade agreement. Democratic Congressman Sherrod Brown and Republican Congressman Jim Kolbe will be my guests here ahead.
And we would like to know how you feel about this critical issue. Do you believe the Central American Free Trade Agreement should be approved or rejected by Congress? Please cast your vote at LOUDOBBS.com. As always, we'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Both the House and Senate are expected to pass the so-called energy reform legislation this week. That bill includes almost $15 billion in tax breaks and other incentives for energy and oil producers. But Energy Secretary Sam Bodman today said the bill won't do anything to cut energy prices for months, if not years.
Critics of the legislation say it will only add to our foreign -- to our dependence on foreign oil. One of those critics is our guest ahead tonight, world renowned Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.
And a controversy tonight over the Doonesbury comic strip. More than 10 U.S. newspapers are either pulling cartoons this week or editing them. Why? Because White House political adviser Karl Rove is referred to in the cartoon strip as "Turd Blossom." That may be offensive to some, but not certainly to President Bush. It is the president's nickname for his trusted, loyal adviser.
Yesterday's strip dealing with the CIA leak case goes like this: "Sir, we're still getting pretty beat up on the Rove revelations. We can't get traction on any other issue. It's just the leak thing 24/7."
"Yes, I know. Karl's sure been earning his nickname lately"
"Boy genius? I'm not so sure, sir."
President Bush then says in the cartoon, "Hey, Turd Blossom, get in here."
By the way, Canadian newspapers have run articles in the past that include Rove's nickname. They say they've not received any complaints whatsoever.
Up next here, twisting language, how simple phrases are twisted in order to be politically correct and certainly not necessarily true. Our special report on perversion of the language is coming right up.
And then, confirming John Roberts for the U.S. Supreme Court. Republicans are ready to set a date. Democrats are now resisting. We'll have the latest on what has become a partisan battle from Capitol Hill.
And then damage discovered on the Space Shuttle Discovery. Will it affect the shuttle mission after just a day in space? What is involved? We'll have the latest report for you.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: CNN has just received word that the entire space shuttle fleet has been grounded by NASA. Now here with the story is Miles O'Brien -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: The news comes to us, Lou, from a briefing. The manager of the space shuttle program, Bill Parsons, is holding a briefing out of Houston to talk about some of the issues which arose from yesterday's launch.
We've been focusing a lot about the damage on that specific little tile all day long, and the concerns that might pose for the mission itself. But there is a much larger issue which engineers have stumbled upon, looking at additional images that we haven't seen. They've not been publicly released yet.
A very large piece of foam, the so-called PAL ramp foam, fell off the tank. And I -- just to show you on the model here to give you a general sense of where it is, it's along this oxygen, liquid oxygen feed line here.
And in this area, there is a piece of foam, a rather large one, which NASA knew for quite some time was a trouble area, but did not have the technical know-how or the ability to fix it in a timely manner. They also didn't have a lot of data to indicate that this foam would be a problematic piece.
Nevertheless, in looking at imagery taken from the orbiter itself and by the crew itself, after the pieces separated, they discovered this piece of foam fell off. It did not cause any damage. We want to underscore that, it did not cause any damage to the orbiter. But as Bill Parsons says, we will not fly until we fix it.
This means that there will be a whole engineering process and redesign process that awaits the shuttle fleet as soon as Discovery comes home.
DOBBS: Miles, as you well know, NASA has worked for two-and-a- half years to get -- to get back into space, return to flight -- the priority, safely. It appears they've done that. The issue right now is the orbiter itself.
Is Discovery, as best we understand it, with this crew, led by Eileen Collins, are they safe now?
O'BRIEN: The best we know is they're safe. They're looking very closely at a piece of damage which occurred on that ascent that we saw. It was a piece of tile which is located right near the landing gear nose door. As a matter of fact, let's look at the piece we prepared a little while ago about that very point.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And liftoff of Space Shuttle Discovery.
O'BRIEN (voice-over): There is no such thing as a flawless launch, and this time NASA engineers are learning that lesson more vividly than ever.
During Discovery's rocket ride to space, a heat-shielding tile at the edge of the forward landing gear door lost a one-inch chip, or maybe a chunk. No one is sure.
Shuttle engineers tell me the damage to the thermal protection system, or TPS, appears to be minimal, a maintenance issue, not a threat to the crew. But the shadow of Columbia naturally hangs heavily over this first mission back.
PAUL HILL, FLIGHT DIRECTOR: The last flight ended in catastrophe and we lost seven friends of ours because of TPS damage. So even when we're talking about tile damage that is clearly within capability, that's going to get all of our attention, and all of us are going to get concerned about it.
O'BRIEN: No fewer than 200 engineers are poring over images generated by more than a hundred cameras on the ground, in the air, attached to the shuttle, and by shutterbug astronauts. And they are seeing damage. Not a surprise. Since day one, 24 years ago, every orbiter that made it home safely returned with dozens and sometimes hundreds of damaged tiles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And liftoff! Atlantis begins another space voyage.
O'BRIEN: In December of 1988, Atlantis came back with more than 700 damaged tiles. Three hundred of those dings larger than an inch. The commander said it looked like his spacecraft was blasted by a shotgun.
The accident board that investigated the loss of Columbia concluded all those foam strikes bred a dangerous sense of familiarity with the problem. So when a large piece of foam struck Columbia's wing, they assumed it was not a danger to the crew.
This time, NASA says it is making no such assumptions.
HILL: We aren't prepared to say that this doesn't need to be repaired. We're not prepared to say that it does need to be repaired. What we are prepared to say is, we've seen some things in ET video and some of the other - some of the other imagery that causes some concern amongst the experts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Let's underscore a point here. We've spoken to the experts, and they say that the damage that has been seen to that tile right near the door to the nose gear, that damage appears to be minimal and does not appear to be a real threat to the crew.
The real issue is the larger issue, long-term issue of falling foam off that external fuel tank. And that big piece which they've discovered by looking at other imagery that fell off raises serious questions for the shuttle program. The big question now is, how long will it take to fix?
DOBBS: All right. And to announce today that they're grounding the fleet without further examination, it shows the kind of commitment that this new approach that NASA's taking is going to have on open communications. There's not going to be any of this nonsense about barriers between engineering groups within NASA and the management team, the mission management team.
So that's all to the good. But at the same time, once again we have an issue with foam. We know we have damage to what could be a critical area -- that is, the nose wheel landing doors. Assess that for us.
O'BRIEN: Well, a couple things. First of all, you've got to give Bill Parsons a lot of points for candor. And that's a good sign.
He said, look, we were wrong about this PAL ramp, and we're going to fix it and we're not going to fly until we fix it. That's all to the good.
The question of whether this particular tile poses -- tile damage poses any problems, we're going to know an awful lot more by Friday. The space shuttle will dock at the International Space Station. They'll use that extended robot arm to take a real close look at it. And I think given...
DOBBS: The station itself? The crew aboard the station will be able to visually...
O'BRIEN: At the station. And they will actually get pictures as it comes in.
DOBBS: Right.
O'BRIEN: That should tell them an awful lot about it. So hopefully, they'll be able to get to a point where they can feel fairly confident about Discovery coming home. The question is, when will the next launch be, knowing that this big piece of foam is still a problem?
DOBBS: And these problems, as daunting and dramatic as the grounding of the fleet is, can be resolved, one hopes, quickly. But there's also sitting there within the vehicle assembly building, the sister ship, Atlantis, ready for a September mission as well.
O'BRIEN: Well, and you have to ask this question as well, because the worst case -- worst case scenario on this mission has always been all along, if something bad happens to Discovery, the crew waits on the space station and Atlantis comes to pick them up.
DOBBS: As the rescue ship.
O'BRIEN: But if there is a fundamental problem, in essence, now that they've grounded the fleet, that option has been removed.
DOBBS: It has been an extraordinarily difficult period for NASA the past two-and-a-half years. For everyone who is supportive of the program, and who supports fully the aspirations that NASA represents, this is a tough, tough situation. And Miles, I know you'll be bringing us the very latest, as we continue to watch over this crew, and the Discovery, and of course the entire shuttle fleet.
Again, NASA grounding the entire shuttle fleet. And we will learn more in the hours ahead and the days ahead about precisely what that will mean to the program.
Miles O'Brien. Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Turning now to Washington and the latest on Supreme Court nominee Judge John Roberts. The Senate could begin confirmation hearings for Judge Roberts as soon as the end of August. Meanwhile, attorneys, journalists and lawmakers are closely studying newly released documents, a lot of them, about Judge Roberts' government service.
Suzanne Malveaux has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On John Roberts' first day at the Justice Department in the summer of 1981, the 26-year-old lawyer was assigned to prepare Sandra Day O'Connor for her Supreme Court confirmation hearings. Roberts, who would be poised to succeed O'Connor on the high court nearly a quarter of a century later, advised her - quote -- "avoid giving specific responses to any direct questions on legal issues."
Some legal scholars believe Roberts will take a similar tact.
EDWARD LAZARUS, FMR. SUPREME COURT CLERK: These memos indicate that he's got very strong convictions and very strong beliefs and that he's going to be extremely direct in saying, I'm not going to answer those questions.
MALVEAUX: On judicial activism, documents show Roberts discouraged it, supporting Republican legislation instead that would limit the Supreme Court's jurisdiction over abortion, busing and school prayer.
LAZARUS: It will be very curious to see whether someone who's about to go onto the Supreme Court has the same view of limited Supreme Court power that he espoused 23 years ago.
MALVEAUX: On affirmative action, Roberts rejected a positive report about the program by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, saying, "there is no recognition of the obvious reason for failure: The affirmative action program required the recruiting of inadequately prepared candidates."
On school desegregation, Roberts questioned the efficacy of busing in a draft letter for the attorney general, saying, "We do not believe busing is necessary to provide the equal educational opportunity mandated by Brown" -- the Supreme Court decision that made segregation of public facilities unconstitutional.
And on sex discrimination, Roberts advocated limits to the law affecting gender equality for college sports.
Meanwhile, back on Capitol Hill, Democrats are focusing on the documents they haven't seen.
SEN PATRICK LEAHY (D), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The White House is eager to supply documents it selected and certainly provided with great fanfare, but we have yet to receive the documents that we have in fact requested.
MALVEAUX (on camera): Of those documents released, legal scholars say that his formal writings perhaps reflect the administration's views at the time. But his own handwritten notes and some candid admissions give a better sense of his own opinions.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: You may have noticed that Democrats and Republicans are moving now to their respective partisan corners and setting up for a conflict. Those Democrats and Republicans are now squabbling over the start date for Senate confirmation hearings on Judge Roberts' nomination. Sen. Leahy, the leading Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, said - quote -- "I wish all the conflicting groups would back off, including the Senate leadership in the White House and let Chairman Specter and I work this out."
Now, we did some historical research on the issue. Since 1976, the average time that passes between a president's Supreme Court nomination and a Senate vote is 85 days. President Bush nominated Judge Roberts just nine days ago, which means, keeping with the historical average, the Senate should vote on Roberts' confirmation no later than October 12th. We'll see who backs off.
Coming up next here, the CAFTA treaty. It's hanging in the balance. There'll be a vote in the dark of night on Capitol Hill. That vote, too close to call. We'll debate the so-called free trade agreement. Two leading congressmen on opposite sides of this so-called free trade agreement -- what some call an outsourcing agreement.
And new violence in Mexico triggering a new State Department warning for Americans along the Mexican border. Should Americans now think twice about crossing that border?
Stay with us. We'll have the very latest for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Capitol Hill tonight, the House of Representatives will vote on CAFTA, we're told, the Central American Free Trade Agreement. It is impossible to say at this hour definitively which way the vote will go, at least according to our sources.
Tonight, two House members on different sides of this CAFTA issue. Republican Congressman Jim Kolbe of Arizona, he's pushing and pushing hard for the passage of CAFTA. And Democratic Congressman Sherrod Brown of Ohio who is fighting hard as well, against CAFTA.
Gentlemen, good to have you here.
REP. JIM KOLBE (R), ARIZONA: Thank you, Lou.
REP. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: Thank you.
DOBBS: Congressman Kolbe, you think this vote -- the president shows up on Capitol Hill today. He's apparently making lots of deals. Have you got the votes?
KOLBE: I don't think we have the votes at this hour, but I think we will have them when we get around to having the vote, yes. I think they will be there. And I think they will be there because I think there's at least two things, at least on the Republican side, that people recognize (INAUDIBLE). More importantly, I think it's a national security issue, and this is a very important national security vote.
DOBBS: You're telling us that CAFTA, five Central American countries and the Dominican Republic, are critical to national security?
KOLBE: You bet. You bet. I was here 20 years ago when we had the Contra battles and at that time, we had five totalitarian governments in those countries in Central America, right wing and left wing. Today we have five nascent democracies. The last thing in the world we need right now with Castro and Chavez -- Hugo Chavez -- President Chavez in Venezuela, is to turn those countries into battlegrounds for those -- for Chavez and Castro. DOBBS: Congressman Brown, given that it is a national security issue, how can you possible resist CAFTA?
BROWN: Well, it's not a national security issue. It started off as a trade issue and they couldn't convince the majority of Congress that this trade issue made sense. Then they said it was a national security and they're not really convincing people there.
Jim himself said that the only way to pass this is -- he was quoted in a newspaper, a couple of newspapers -- is to break arms in thousands of places. And that's what they're going to have to do on the vote tonight. They're cutting deals. They're making promises. And they're using hardball politics to try to force a trade agreement through Congress that a wide spectrum of this society doesn't want and a majority of congressmen don't want.
DOBBS: Let me ask you straightforwardly, gentlemen. We have had the experience with NAFTA. It is a very tough sell, given what has happened in environmental controls, in Mexico; in labor protection; in the loss of jobs in this country; in the trade deficit, which is nine times as large today with Mexico as when we began.
Against that backdrop, can you assure us, Congressman Kolbe, that Americans will not lose jobs; that this is not an outsourcing agreement and that we won't see more flight of production and jobs to Central America and the Dominican Republic?
KOLBE: Well, Lou, it's not an outsourcing agreement at all. I'd point out that these countries already have the benefits under the Caribbean Basin Initiative...
DOBBS: Right.
KOLBE: ...which has been renewed every three years, to have access to our markets. This just makes it permanent, so that they can make an investment in, let's say, a factory to sew denim pants or to sew shirts. And we'll be doing that here with textiles coming from the United States, instead of from China, where it's 90 percent going to be Chinese output there.
So, I don't think it's an outsourcing agreement and I don't agree with you about NAFTA. We've created 21 million new jobs since 1994. Sure, some jobs have been lost, but on the whole -- I won't claim that every job that's created came from NAFTA and I don't think you should claim that every job that's lost came from NAFTA.
DOBBS: Well, I certainly don't. But then I would also point out that 22 million jobs were created in the '90s and we have seen a bare trickle, in historical terms, of jobs created in the past five years. I'm not sure why you took '94, other than the fact that it's when NAFTA began.
KOLBE: Well, that's when NAFTA began, yes. That's what I'm saying. Since NAFTA passed, we've created 21 million new jobs.
DOBBS: Right. And as you look at what is happening to jobs in this country, right now, in terms of job creation and the quality, we certainly wouldn't want to -- whether you disagree or not, we wouldn't want to see those jobs eroded through outsourcing to CAFTA. I think you would agree.
Congressman Brown, let me ask you this. The U.S. Trade Representative Rob Hortman says that a -- this CAFTA vote, a no vote on CAFTA, in point of fact, will have a significant impact and hurt the United States in other trade negotiations. How do you respond?
BROWN: Well, you respond that our trade policy is not working. You point out, Lou, that our trade deficit worldwide went from $38 billion to the first year I was elected to Congress in '92 to $618 billion last year. We've lost 3 million manufacturing jobs in the last five or so years.
The whole point is, it's an outsourcing agreement. Guatemala and Nicaragua, the average wage is less than $3,000 a year. They -- we're not going to sell products to them. They can't buy cars made in Ohio, or software from Seattle, or prime beef from Nebraska, or textiles and apparel from North Carolina. But they are places where American companies will move -- will lose American jobs, and exploit workers in Guatemala. That these trade agreements aren't working for Americans or for the countries who are our trading partners.
DOBBS: Congressmen, we are out of time. But I do want -- our crack staff here has -- I do want to correct the record on something. Congressman Brown, you said twist Republican arms until they break in a thousand places. The actual quote -- and Congressman Kolbe, I want you to check this for us -- the "Washington Trade Daily" reporting you as saying, quote, "twist some Republican arms until they break in a thousand pieces."
KOLBE: I was saying that that -- the leadership is going to be doing a lot of arm twisting, and they are. This is true of any close vote like this.
BROWN: But never like this.
DOBBS: Especially in the dark of night, when I'm told that all Americans should fear our Congress in session.
KOLBE: Stay up and stay tuned. It will be a dramatic vote.
DOBBS: Oh, we will be up, believe me.
KOLBE: OK.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
KOLBE: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll, do you think the Central America Free Trade Agreement should be approved or rejected by Congress? Please cast your vote at LOUDOBBS.com. We're giving you the opportunity to vote hours before Congress will do so. We'll have the results for you and Congress.
The purpose of language, of course, is to communicate, and to portray reality. What is happening right now in this country with our language is just the opposite.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is not an illegal alien. He is undocumented.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To the millions of undocumented men and women...
ROMANS: Undocumented, even though many have the Mexican documents, a metricula consular. And not all are actually workers. To law enforcement, they are EWI, entered without inspection, or OTM.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We should be concerned about OTMs, other than Mexicans.
ROMANS: How about true identity imposters? In meat packing plants, those are illegal aliens who use fake documents to get jobs.
Immigration is full of tortured political correctness.
And so is the debate on China. Politicians and big business seduced by the lure of its markets sugarcoat Beijing, calling it a free market dictatorship and a country of one-party rule. Call it communist China and risk being called a protectionist.
In business, companies don't eliminate American jobs in favor of cheap Chinese made products, instead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're reenergizing our global sourcing efforts.
ROMANS: And near shoring is somehow preferable to off-shoring. The worker who loses his job to outsourcing or to an illegal alien is not unemployed, just displaced. And these days, they're not layoffs, they are involuntary redundancy.
Washington, of course, invented this skill. It's no longer the war on terror it's...
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Today's struggle against violent extremism.
ROMANS: The government doesn't spend, it invests.
And the entitlement program, formerly known as welfare, is aid to families with dependent children.
The energy lobby has helped morph global warming into climate change. And the culture of life is a politician that supports the death penalty but opposes abortion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: If the purpose of language is to communicate, the language these days is communicating less reality and a whole lot more message and spin, Lou.
DOBBS: It has really become that. And within this, it's become ideological in the extreme. People who just simply do not want to confront the reality of what we're trying to describe.
And it's one of the things on this broadcast, as our viewers well know, we seek desperately, work hard diligently here to bring to our audience a nonpartisan, non-ideological reality.
Now, for some of you watching, I admit, some small few, you think there is only a partisan reality or an ideological reality. There is the truth. And that's the -- in the world of fair and balance, we truly believe here that truth has only one side. And we try to bring that to you each evening.
And the truth of this language, my gosh.
ROMANS: And it starts real young. Students don't fail anymore, Lou, they're below grade level. It's not PC to fail.
DOBBS: It's not PC to fail.
ROMANS: It starts young, goes all the way through.
DOBBS: And regrettably, it's not PC to excel either.
ROMANS: Apparently not.
DOBBS: Christine, you excelled with that report, and we thank you.
Still ahead here, why one of the world's leading economists, Nobel Prize-winning Joseph Stigla, says the energy bill will actually drain America's resources, and worsen our dependency on foreign oil.
And the U.S. government is telling Americans to stay away from northern Mexico. We'll tell you why. Another extension of that warning that so confounds the Mexican government. We'll have a special report for you, and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The State Department has issued a new alarming warning tonight about the dramatic increase of violence with our border with Mexico. For the third time this year, the American ambassador to Mexico has issued a travel warning for American tourists crossing the border into Mexico.
Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Opposite Laredo, Texas, is Nuevo Laredo, Mexico. More than 100 people have been killed here in an escalating drug war since last month.
Another assassination, he shouts.
Just this year 18 Mexican policemen have been gunned down, including the chief of police. And since last summer, 45 U.S. citizens have either been kidnapped or murdered. Now, the U.S. Embassy has issued an advisory for Americans traveling to the border region, saying these disturbing reports make clear that Mexico needs to do much more to bring safety and security to our common border.
It's the third time this year the State Department has issued a travel advisory for northern Mexico. But it's the first time the information has been formally included in the State Department's consular information sheet where it stays until conditions change.
It's a chilling read. "Drug violence has increased dramatically and shows no sign of abating. Innocent bystanders are at risk. Mexican authorities have failed to prosecute numerous crimes committed against American citizens."
U.S. Ambassador Tony Garza did credit Mexico for beginning to address concerns about border violence.
Hundreds of federal troops battled and disbanded the Nuevo Laredo police force which was largely corrupted by drug lords. This week, local police who have been cleared of nefarious links began returning to duty.
Mexican President Vicente Fox's government has reacted angrily to previous U.S. travel advisories, saying the United States shares responsibility for the problem and should do more to stop weapons trafficking. This time, less hostility.
VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO (through translator): We share the concern of Ambassador Garza, and we are working hard in the struggle against organized crime.
WIAN: Meanwhile, in California, civilian volunteers patrolling a stretch of border near San Diego say they've been fired at from the Mexican side.
Surprisingly the violence apparently has not hurt Mexico's tourism business, at least so far. Travel to Mexico is up 10 percent through May of this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: But that could change, because the State Department's consular information sheets are widely read throughout the travel industry. And there's plenty of information in the Mexico entry that would give even the most adventurous plenty of cause for concern -- Lou?
DOBBS: Absolutely. And one has to wonder how the United States government can continue to tolerate Mexico's refusal to maintain security at its border with the United States; with both sides recognizing it's our joint responsibility.
And as we report here each evening on illegal aliens fleeing desperate poverty and corruption in Mexico, part of the reason that we have a tremendous illegal immigration crisis -- the United States government is doing absolutely nothing to insist on direction from the Mexican government to provide a better environment and much better economy for its own people. The -- this warning, even though the Mexican government was less voluble in reaction, unfortunately it's absolutely necessary.
Casey, thank you very much...
WIAN: Lou, I should point out that Ambassador Garza says he's had conversations and continues to have conversations with the highest levels of the Mexican government, but as you mentioned, there has been little action so far.
DOBBS: And it's confounding: Risking not only American lives, but obviously, an impetus -- the principal impetus to the violence, the poverty in Mexico and law-breakers in this country, that is, the corporate supremacists who think they should be allowed to do anything in this country, the primal causal reasons.
Thank you very much, Casey Wian.
WIAN: OK.
DOBBS: Coming up next here: Nobel Prize-wining economist Joseph Stiglitz says the energy bill now before Congress is nothing less than a corporate giveaway and one that will only add to this nation's dependency on foreign oil. He's our guest here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest is one of most respected economists in the world, Columbia University Economics Professor Joseph Stiglitz. He's the winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2001, now here to talk about a few interesting geopolitical economic developments. Joe, first of all, it's good to have you here.
JOSEPH STIGLITZ, ECONOMICS PROF., COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Nice to be here.
DOBBS: Let's start with the CAFTA debate. This is turning into a monumental issue -- $32 billion in total trade involved, perhaps and a vote in the dark on Capitol Hill. Should we or should we not, in your judgment?
STIGLITZ: Probably not. The administration has given up defending on economic grounds. They're talking about politics, security. Every one of their bilateral trade agreements has really been backfiring. They used that same argument with the Morocco Agreement and there were riots in the streets, because it was actually recognized to be actually bad for Morocco.
DOBBS: Well, these so-called free trade agreements -- the critics calling this an outsourcing agreement. Outsourcing as a business practice in this country is costing an estimated half-million dollar -- a half-million jobs each year. What is your sense? You know, Greg Mankiw, when he was chairman of the president's council of advisers, said outsourcing is good for America. I sort of choked on that. As a matter of fact, I was spitting mad. What was your reaction?
STIGLITZ: Well, my view is that trade can be good if it's shaped the right way.
DOBBS: How about outsourcing jobs?
STIGLITZ: And the real problem is, to try to create jobs in the United States and to give opportunities on a fair basis internationally.
DOBBS: A $162 billion deficit with China last year. We're going to move certainly to 700-plus billion this year in terms of our deficit worldwide. We have 29 years of trade deficits, $4 trillion in external trade debt.
Why in the world is not your profession the academic orthodoxy, as well as the ideological partisan orthodoxies that surround this issue -- Republicans on the right and Democrat on the left -- why cant they look at the empirical facts and say: there's something going on here we need to deal with?
STIGLITZ: There is, but the problems are deeper than just trade. It has to do with investment in the United States, savings in the United States. For instance, China has been saving more than twice as much as the United States. An economy...
DOBBS: In absolute -- in absolute terms.
STIGLITZ: In an absolute. An economy one-tenth our size. They're producing more engineers and scientists than we are. In a modern economy, if you're going to compete...
DOBBS: Well if you have the folks to throw at it, as the saying goes.
STIGLITZ: Well, but they're a less-developed country. They recognize where the world is going. It's a high-tech world and they are training the people for that and we aren't.
DOBBS: And -- so that this doesn't sound like we're Republican bashing or Bush bashing, I'm also going to throw in the Clinton bashing and Democratic bashing. The NAFTA trade agreements, these agreements that were just an absolute disaster, pushed through by the administration which you served.
STIGLITZ: That was a bipartisan support and it's turned out that in NAFTA, there were a lot of things that we didn't know then, that weren't talked about. The investment agreement, for instance, which has been bad for the environment. Chapter 11 -- Mexico has not gotten the benefits, again, because Mexico hasn't been doing a lot of the investments. So, Mexican real wages are down.
DOBBS: They're down -- we talked about that on this broadcast. People still want to say, you know, NAFTA is really terrific. The fact is, they won't look at the reality.
STIGLITZ: But the poverty in Mexico is down, because they can't compete with our subsidized corn.
DOBBS: Right.
STIGLITZ: So --
DOBBS: You said poverty is down?
STIGLITZ: Poverty is up in Mexico.
DOBBS: Right.
STIGLITZ: Because the poorest people in Mexico are farmers and they have to compete with our highly subsidized corn. They can't do it.
DOBBS: Free trade, jobs lost, no investment...
STIGLITZ: It's not free trade.
DOBBS: Well, it's not free trade. That's why we always call it so-called free trade. I lapsed there, Joe and forgot to say so-called.
We've forgotten how to invest in this country. Our corporations -- we're giving U.S. multinationals free reign. There's no incentive to invest domestically; to put together -- to invest in our infrastructure; our schools; to deal with education; to deal with the energy bill, which you think is a disaster.
STIGLITZ: That's one of the reasons that I've been so upset about the deficit. It's not just the deficit numbers, but we can't invest in research. And it's basic research that we're going to need to compete.
DOBBS: Joe Stiglitz, thanks for being here. We appreciate you being here, Professor. I hope you'll come back and we can continue this with more time.
STIGLITZ: Sure.
DOBBS: Appreciate it. More now on NASA's decision to ground the entire shuttle fleet. That word coming in about 20 minutes ago here to this broadcast. NASA tonight, is saying there will be no more shuttle launches until engineers have fully assessed the effect of debris that fell from the -- that fell onto the Discovery on blastoff yesterday.
A top official saying NASA is treating this problem very seriously. Obviously, they have grounded the fleet. We'll have complete updates on this story throughout the evening here on CNN.
The results of our poll tonight: 96 percent of you say the Central American Free Trade Agreement should be rejected by Congress.
That's our broadcast for this evening. Thanks for being with us. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, good night from New York.
ANDERSON COOPER 360 starts right now with none other than Anderson Cooper -- Anderson?
END
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
