Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Defends War; No Compromise; Closed Door Policy; Poor College Preparation; Immigration Problems
Aired August 22, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
New fears tonight that the airline industry's move to outsource critical workers is putting the lives of airline passengers at risk. We'll have a special report for you tonight on outsourcing your safety.
Also tonight, an urgent summit meeting over our nation's broken borders. New calls for immigration reform as governors from states on our southern border declare states of emergency.
And an in-depth look tonight at one of the most contentious scientific issues of our time, certainly one of the most contentious educational issues, intelligent design. Should intelligent design be taught alongside the theory of evolution in our schools? We'll have a special report and a debate.
We begin tonight with President Bush's new call on Americans to support his strategy in Iraq. President Bush, whose foreign policy is increasingly under attack from his own party, said in a speech today that an American retreat from Iraq would be a key victory for radical Islamist terrorists.
But as the U.S. death toll in Iraq continued to mount today, protests against the president's policy grew. There is dissent in the president's own party and among the American public, with the president's job approval rating plummeting.
Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska is likening now Iraq to Vietnam. Senator Hagel says, "After two-and-a-half years in Iraq, it is clear we are not winning." The senator says Iraq looks like a quagmire.
And there are new fears tonight that Iraq may be sliding into civil war. Iraqi leaders have failed once again to agree on an Iraqi constitution before a set deadline. Iraq's Sunni Arabs are rejecting altogether a draft constitution tonight.
White House Correspondent Dana Bash begins our coverage from Salt Lake City, Utah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Before an audience of veterans, an unusually blunt call for patience. For the first time, the president confronted critics by using the very number they say proves his Iraq policy is a failure.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've lost 1,864 members of our armed forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and 223 in Operation Enduring Freedom. Each of these men and women left grieving families and loved ones back home.
BASH: After eight days out of sight at his Texas ranch while the antiwar protest Cindy Sheehan sparked there held the spotlight, Mr. Bush appeared to respond to her chief complaint, her son died in vein and the troops should come home.
BUSH: We owe them something. We will finish the task that they gave their lives for.
BASH: His rationale for continuing the Iraq mission, vintage Bush, telling Americans they are not yet safe, framing it in the context of the broader war on terror with words that have angered critics before, evoking the mastermind of the September 11 attacks.
BUSH: Terrorists like bin Laden and his ally, Zarqawi, are trying to turn Iraq into what Afghanistan was under the Taliban.
BASH: This speech and one planned for Idaho Wednesday were scheduled months ago, but aides concede they come at a critical time for the president to once again make his case for staying in Iraq. But Cindy Sheehan followed the president here, too, on TV.
CINDY SHEEHAN, SON DIED IN IRAQ: How many more soldiers have to die before we say enough?
BASH: And down the street as the president spoke, hundreds of antiwar protesters. The president's urgent task to reinvigorate support for his Iraq policy is not just from opponents. GOP veteran of Vietnam, Senator Chuck Hagel, has been drawing similarities between that war, one the U.S. lost, and Iraq. Other red state Republicans home for summer recess say they are finding doubts about the war and the Bush plan on the rise.
(on camera): A senior Bush official said the president decided to cite the casualty numbers in part because that is a focus of Bush critics. And a roomful of veterans is an appropriate place to say their sacrifice was for a worthy cause.
Dana Bash, CNN, Salt Lake City, Utah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: As President Bush spoke in Salt Lake City, the Iraqi parliament failed once again to vote on a new Iraq constitution. A draft constitution was presented to the parliament, but Sunni leaders refused to give that draft constitution their backing, saying that Iraq tonight is closer than ever to civil war.
Aneesh Raman reports from Baghdad -- Aneesh.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, good evening. A deadline met, but compromise not achieved. In essentially a political maneuver, a draft constitution going to the National Assembly. But they are now giving themselves three more days to try and bridge the divide between the Shia-Kurd coalition and the minority Sunni Arabs over the issue confronting this question, federalism, how powerful will regional governments be, how much oil revenue will they get?
The Sunnis want no mention of federalism in this constitution. And if they are alienated, the repercussions, Lou, are twofold.
Politically, the Sunnis do have the vote to reject this in the referendum set by mid-October. They have the two-thirds vote in three provinces to vote this down and start the entire process again. But in a larger sense, in terms of Iraq's security, it has long been said by government officials that disenfranchised Sunnis make up the majority of those fighting the insurgency.
Bringing Sunni politicians into the political fray is seen as essential in bringing stability to Iraq. That is now, Lou, at risk.
DOBBS: Aneesh, on the issue of federalism and the role of Islam within the constitution, they did agree, at least in this draft, that the constitution would be based upon Islam. What does that portend?
RAMAN: Well, it creates essentially an Islamic republic. They have said that Islam will be "a primary source of Iraqi law," and that no law can be drafted that contradicts the tenets of Islam.
The drafters say they are also saying the principles of democracy and human rights will also be put in the constitution. But it raises, Lou, serious questions about how prominent a role religious clerics could play in the new Iraq, whether they will be deciding whether laws are in contradiction with Islam, and in turn, how people live their daily lives.
DOBBS: They have asked for three days in which to complete this constitution, as they put it. Is that a realistic, in your best judgment, Aneesh, realistic timeline?
RAMAN: No, I don't think they will be able to find compromise. This has been seven months in the making. But what they will try to do is perhaps find wording that all can agree upon.
If not, they will put this to a vote. And they do have the votes, the Shia and the Kurds, to pass this. But they do not have the support of the Sunnis, if that is the case. And that will present the possibility the Sunnis will reject this document in the referendum by mid-October.
DOBBS: Aneesh Raman. Thank you very much from Baghdad.
As negotiations over the Iraqi constitution today continued, more American soldiers died in Iraq. Two U.S. soldiers were killed, two others wounded in the town of Samarra. The vehicle they were riding in was hit by a roadside bomb. Also today, eight Iraqi policeman, three civilians were killed when radical Islamist terrorists opened fire on a bus north of Baghdad.
In Afghanistan four American soldiers were killed when their vehicle hit a roadside bomb south of Kabul Sunday. Thirteen American soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan this month, 65 so far this year. This the deadliest year for our troops in Afghanistan since the Afghan war in 2001.
Israel today completed its historic withdrawal from Gaza. Hundreds of Jewish settlers were removed today from the last of the 21 settlements evacuated over the past week by the Israeli government. There were protests but little resistance to today's evacuation, which officially ends almost 40 years of Israeli presence in Gaza.
Tomorrow, Israeli troops will move to evacuate two settlements in the Israeli occupied West Bank. An estimated 5,000 Israeli troops are now bracing for confrontation with Israelis opposed to the withdrawal.
As many as 2,000 ultra nationalist Israelis are said to be poised to resist the Israeli government's attempt to evacuate the settlements. Israeli officials say the threat of major violence breaking out tomorrow is high.
And Jordan tonight announced that it's arrested what it calls the prime suspect in last week's rocket attack on two U.S. warships. The rockets narrowly missed the warships which were docked at the Jordanian port of Aqaba at the time. No Americans were injured in the attack. The ships were undamaged.
One Jordanian soldier was killed. Jordan says the suspect is connected with a known radical Islamist terrorist group.
Communist China tonight making another aggressive grab for a foreign energy firm two weeks after the collapse of its bid for key U.S. energy asset Unocal Communist China's largest oil company, China National Petroleum, today agreed to buy Canadian oil giant PetroKazakhstan for more than $4 billion. That deal gives China access to new supplies of foreign oil to secure its economic and military expansion. This will be China's largest-ever foreign takeover.
As communist China intensifies its aggressive global takeover strategy, it is making new moves to close its markets to the rest of the world. China slamming the door shut on foreign investment in its industries and foreign influence in its state-run media.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): All summer China has been tightening its trade regulations, slamming the door on American business in China.
TED FISHMAN, AUTHOR, "CHINA INC." In the whole height of the scene of debate the Chinese restricted foreign involvement in their steel sector, about the same time saying to the United States you have to open up your market to us in order to be fair.
PILGRIM: In July, China revised the rules for foreign investment in the steel industry, basically forcing manufacturers to hand trade secrets to the Chinese. The Schumer report explains this trick, saying the Chinese apply it to a number of industries -- "... one of the most pervasive problems that still exists is the issue of 'conditional' approvals based on 'technology transfer, which is a nice way of saying, 'We will approve the deal if we can also steal your idea.'"
Other Chinese trade tricks, according to the report, roadblocks. For example, law firms can only open a new branch in China every three years. Chinese construction has to be done by Chinese contractors. And foreign engineers on the project have to obtain special Chinese certification.
In August, China froze all approval of foreign satellite broadcasters entering the market. The ministry of propaganda tightened restrictions on foreign TV, books, newspapers and performances.
The U.S. trade representative complained in July, "There remain very serious concerns regarding American access to the Chinese market. China is a major beneficiary of the global trading system. Along with that comes responsibilities, including opening their market to our products and services just as we have opened ours."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, at no time in its flirtation with capitalism has China allowed a U.S. firm to take 100 percent ownership in a Chinese business. And now even minority stakes are being restricted in certain high-value industries. The Schumer report says in many industries China is only paying lip service to the world trade rules.
DOBBS: And remarkably, there are still advocates in this country, so-called free trade advocates, who suggest that bringing rationality to bear in the trade and economic relationship with China is protectionism. The madness is complete.
PILGRIM: It certainly is not reciprocal at this point.
DOBBS: Kitty Pilgrim. Thank you.
And we should give, I think, as well some credit to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who last week brought together the issues of human rights, economics and geopolitics into the relationship rather than divorcing one from the other.
PILGRIM: It certainly is getting a lot more attention in Washington these days. And the Schumer report is quite -- quite something.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you.
Coming up next, our nation's border crisis. National leaders calling a summit to finally address the country's stunning lack of a national immigration policy and a stunning lack of border security. That special report is next.
And then, wasted minds. Our high school students are dropping out in greater and record numbers, but the only response from school administrators so far and state governments is to bury the problem, either acting as fools or naves. We'll have that special report for you coming up here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our nation's urgent immigration crisis is the focus of events all across Iowa today. With three million illegal immigrants crossing our borders last year, Congressman Steve King is the host of these forums. The summit has attracted reform leaders like Congressman Tom Tancredo, Congressman J.D. Hayworth, and Minuteman co- founder Jim Gilchrist.
Bill Tucker reports from Council Bluffs, Iowa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): At first glance, Iowa may seem an unlikely place to hold a summit calling for immigration policy reform.
REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: ... for all the politics all the time in Iowa.
TUCKER: But Iowa does host the first in the nation presidential caucuses, and Congressman Steve King wants to stir up the political pot.
KING: We're attempting to prepare the groundwork here so that Iowans will ask the tough immigration questions of the presidential candidates that come here for the caucuses for 2008.
TUCKER: And he had no trouble attracting support.
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: What I hear from California to the Carolinas, from Montana to Mississippi, from Arizona to Iowa, is that border security and national security and the whole question of illegal immigration is number one on the list.
JIM GILCHRIST, CO-FOUNDER, MINUTEMAN PROJECT: What is happening on our borders is also having an effect on our heartland. And it's not an issue any longer of just four states along our southern border or 10 states along our northern border. It's an issue of all 50 states in the United States.
TUCKER: Failure to secure our borders has led Congress, Homeland Security and the administration into a dangerous game of catch-up.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: So we're passing Patriot Act after Patriot Act, and we're increasing surveillance. Well, yes, you can do that, but you had better try to also stop them from getting here, and not just worry about how to get them once they get here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now, after a morning of meetings in Des Moines, they took the show on the road, Lou, for what they described as a series of planned stops throughout western Iowa to listen to local law enforcement officials. They are planning to culminate today with a rally here behind me in Council Bluffs, Iowa -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, what has been the reception there? What is the mood? What is the extent of participation?
TUCKER: Well, this morning they had roughly about 40 people participating in the -- by people, I mean public citizens coming in. They were open -- they were open to the public coming in.
And you can see here there's a crowd starting together. A little bit of a storm threatening off to the side that might keep some people away. But I'd say we probably have about 75 people here right now.
DOBBS: OK. Bill Tucker. Thank you very much.
We'll have much more ahead on the summit. Congressman Steve King is our guest here next.
The governors of Arizona and New Mexico have declared a state of emergency along their borders with Mexico. But tonight, there are new calls for governor Janet Napolitano and Governor Bill Richardson to take a far more dramatic stance to defend our nation's border with Mexico.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The governors of Arizona and New Mexico say the federal government's failure to secure their borders has left them overwhelmed by murders, drug and human smugglers, and potential terrorists. So both have declared states of emergency, seeking a few million dollars reimbursement from Washington.
But some lawmakers say they should do more. Specifically, mobilizing the National Guard. Congress passed legislation this summer authorizing governors to build a Pentagon for homeland defense- related National Guard costs.
REP. CHARLIE NORWOOD (R), GEORGIA: I don't know if any of them are playing politics or not. I know that it would be a big, great first step if Bill Richardson, the governor of New Mexico, would put his National Guard down on that border and send the bill to Secretary Rumsfeld. Then we'll have some fireworks.
WIAN: In fact, New Mexico and other border states together have a few hundred National Guard members already patrolling the border, targeting drug smugglers. Congressional border security advocates say 36,000 are needed to stop illegal immigration on the 2,000-mile border.
When Richardson was asked by a radio program caller about a large-scale Guard mobilization, his message was mixed.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: I don't want to close the border. I just acted on an emergency declaration that triggers more funds for me.
I believe, for instance, if you look at New Mexico, we're one of the most immigrant-friendly states. We provide licenses to undocumented workers, tuition for undocumented kids.
WIAN: Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano did not respond to requests for comment on the idea of deploying the National Guard on the border. Texas Governor Rick Perry says there's no need for an emergency declaration in his state. But in California, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is being pressured to declare a state of emergency, even by pro-illegal alien Democrats.
FABIAN NUNEZ, SPEAKER, CALIFORNIA ASSEMBLY: We have to push the federal government for a more humane immigration approach that we legalize the status of undocumented workers in this state that have been contributing to our economy. And so it is in that light that I'm asking the governor to do this.
WIAN: But Nunez does not want the governor to mobilize additional National Guard troops.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Now, deploying the National Guard on the border would be a financial risk for states, because there's no guarantee that the Pentagon would agree to cover the cost. But a growing number of lawmakers say it would be money well spent because of the rising cost of illegal immigration -- Lou.
DOBBS: It's extraordinary, Casey. And the idea that Governor Richardson, who had the courage to declare, and then Governor Napolitano a few days later, to declare a state of emergency along their borders with Mexico, but at the same time, the clear pandering to those who advocate basically illegal immigration tells us just how sensitive this is as a political issue for these people. Governor Bill Richardson, obviously, one of those who is being mentioned for a presidential run in 2008.
WIAN: Yes, it makes a lot of people think that politics are behind these calls for states of emergency, and especially here in California, when you have conservative Republicans and liberal Democrats, people who've advocated driver's licenses for illegal aliens and other benefits, both calling for the same thing, states of emergency -- Lou.
DOBBS: Remarkable. Well, perhaps the call will be heard and we'll move this resolution where it should be. That is, at the White House and the United States Congress. Thanks a lot. Casey Wian.
WIAN: OK.
DOBBS: We'd like to know what you think about this critical issue, an issue that is becoming increasingly urgent. Do you believe that after declaring a state of emergency on their borders both the governors of Arizona and New Mexico should call up the National Guard, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.
Still ahead, exporting America, how the U.S. airline industry may be putting its bottom line ahead of your safety.
And wasted minds, how our high schools all across the country are using fuzzy math to hide the staggering number of their students who are dropping out. The minds of an entire generation at risk. Stay with us for that important special report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New concerns tonight that the U.S. airline industry may be putting its bottom line ahead of your safety by sending American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, outsourcing mechanical work. Mechanics at Northwest Airlines walked off the job over this past weekend. One of the reasons, the rising use of overseas maintenance contractors.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Northwest mechanics say this strike is not about money, it's about keeping jobs in the United States. The airline, following industry trend, has been increasingly servicing its planes in Singapore and Hong Kong, where the labor costs are significantly lower.
Foreign repair shops have to be certified by the Federal Aviation Administration, but the mechanics do not have to comply with drug testing or criminal background checks. A major safety concern, according to the Mechanics Union.
STEVE MACFARLANE, AIRCRAFT MECHANICS FRATERNAL ASSOC.: You know, all of us fly on our own airplanes, our families do, our friends do. When you outsource an airplane, these people have no real connection to the aircraft.
SYLVESTER: Northwest would not talk on camera, but insists, "Hiring standards for licensed contract technicians and third-party vendors are identical to existing Northwest airline standards." The standards may be similar, but Federal Aviation Administration oversight of outside maintenance firms is not the same.
A Department of Transportation Office of Inspector General status report found that the FAA has "... not responded to the shift in the source of air carriers' maintenance and continues to concentrate its inspection resources on maintenance performed at carriers' in-house maintenance facilities." The lack of oversight of outside contractors is troubling to former National Transportation Safety Board chairman Jim Hall.
JIM HALL, FMR. NTSB CHAIRMAN: At the same time we see the increase in outsourcing, we're seeing a decrease in the number of FAA inspectors that are assigned these responsibilities. So, you know, I think as the inspector general pointed out, it is an area that Congress needs to be paying attention to.
SYLVESTER: The Federal Aviation Administration acknowledges there is room for improvement and is following through on the inspector general's recommendation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Last March, Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrested 27 illegal aliens hired to service planes at a North Carolina maintenance facility. And that raises even more questions over who is being hired and what is the screening process at these outside facilities -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you. Lisa Sylvester.
California is losing millions of dollars in tax revenue to outsourcing, according to a study by the Los Angeles County Economic Development Corporation. About 60 percent of all Hollywood productions are shot outside California. The state loses more than $10 million when a $70 million movie is made somewhere else.
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is pushing legislation that would give movie makers a 12 percent tax credit to keep the production in state.
Coming up next here, wasted mines. A growing crisis in our nation's high schools. It is a crisis school administrators are apparently desperate to hide. They won't succeed here tonight.
And Kansas sparks a powerful debate over teaching the origins of life. We'll have our own debate coming up when we continue with two Kansas school board members on very opposite sides of this contentious issue.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, recent studies show that high school dropout rates are far higher than educational institutions had been reported. Today, one quarter of white high school students drop out of high school. For blacks and Latinos, the dropout rate is 50 percent.
High school dropout rates have been rising steadily for 30 years, but incredibly, schools and administrators lie, cheat, or invent more positive graduation figures out of thin air.
Christine Romans has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This fall, 4.3 million children will enter high school in this country, a third -- or more than a million -- will never graduate. They are coming to high school with poor math and reading skills, become bored and frustrated, and then drop out.
Graduation rates peaked in 1969 and have declined for most of the past 30 years. And of those who do graduate, too many lack the skills to enter college.
JAY GREENE, UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS: Well, of the about four million students who enter high school, only about 1.3 million students, by our estimate, graduate and have taken the required college prep courses.
ROMANS: Only 75 percent of white students graduate from high school, 50 percent of blacks, 53 percent of Hispanics. Worst of all, critics say nobody has any idea how bad the drop-out rates really are.
States like Alabama, California and Florida report one set of numbers. Researchers estimate the graduation rates are actually much lower. Some states count GEDs in their graduation numbers. In others, kids who go to jail or become too old for high school are not counted as drop-outs.
GARY ORFIELD, HARVARD UNIVERSITY CIVIL RIGHTS PROJECT: They start not attending classes, they start flunking and nobody does anything about them and they just disappear. And from the high school standpoint, since they're only being evaluated on their test scores and not whether they graduate anybody, if kids with low test scores leave, they look like they are more successful.
ROMANS: The Department of Education says it is working with governors for more accurate drop out data.
TOM LUCE, ASST. SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: We have a problem. You know, of about every hundred students that enter ninth grade, only about 67 graduate. And we just can't have that in this country. And we've got to correct the problem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Correct the problem and correct it soon. Researchers say the economic fall-out of these rising drop-out rates will be devastating. High school drop-outs have much higher rates of poverty, imprisonment, welfare enrollment. And even if they can get a GED and get a job, today's high school drop-outs, they'll make at least 35 percent less than high school drop-outs of a generation ago. There's no time to lose in this.
DOBBS: It is literally wasting an entire generation. The fact that school administrators and state government, education departments and for that matter yes, the federal government education department, which is an altogether separate issue, somebody is either lying or they're absolute fools not to be able to come up with these numbers. ROMANS: At best, they are literally guessing. At worst, they are trying to keep the numbers high for their federal funding and so that they can meet federal statutes, No Child Left Behind, et cetera.
DOBBS: And we continue to overcrowd our schools. We're spending a fortune on education in this country. We're spending how much more today than 30 years ago?
ROMANS: Twice as much and the drop-out rates are stagnant, essentially, for whites and you know, skyrocketing for blacks and Hispanics. We're spending twice as much today as we did a generation ago.
DOBBS: This is not only absolutely unacceptable for what is presumably the world's only super power. It's un-American to deny these kids an opportunity for a great public education. It's criminal.
ROMANS: Lou, we're not even in the top ten in the world for graduation rates anymore.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.
The Kansas Board of Education has tentatively approved new standards for its science classes that would encourage teachers to discuss alternative theories on the origin of life, including the theory of evolution and intelligent design.
If approved Kansas will join Minnesota, Ohio and New Mexico in placing greater emphasis on alternative theories. Joining me now to discuss and debate this controversial issue, two members of the Kansas Board of Education. Janet Waugh is opposing these new standards and John Bacon supports them. Thanks to both of you for being here.
JOHN BACON, KANSAS BOARD OF EDUCATION: Thank you.
DOBBS: Let me begin, first -- John, how comfortable are you with putting intelligent design into the classroom as an alternate consideration to Darwinism?
BACON: Well, these standards -- the changes we've made, they do not encourage nor do they discourage intelligent design. But it does allow for the teacher to have a little bit of latitude if that question happens to come up in a science classroom.
DOBBS: Well, that's kind of a fancy way of talking, John. Let me kind of get to the point: Are you supporting intelligent design in the classroom or are you not?
BACON: Well, I think...
DOBBS: And if you're not, why did you bother with the draft?
DOBBS: My position as an elected official is to determine whether or not or the important thing here and our mission and goal is to make sure that students are educated and to educate is to inform. And I believe that there's a controversy surrounding origin and science.
And most polls that I've seen says that parents want their children to have a liberal arts education, which would include informing them about controversies. And so, I think that this controversy should be taught in classrooms.
DOBBS: And Janet, the reason -- I don't see why you oppose it. John just said that it really doesn't encourage anything. It sounded, if you will, a little political to me.
JANET WAUGH, KANSAS BOARD OF EDUCATION: Well, it is absolutely political, because the -- there are no alternatives to evolution. There are -- there's no argument from the mainstream science community regarding it. The argument tends to be in the faith-based community and if the faith-based community wants alternatives taught, I see nothing wrong with that, but not in the science class. Let's teach them in a comparative religion class, a social studies class, a philosophy class, but not in science, because mainstream science does not accept alternatives.
DOBBS: Well, what would you say though -- if I may ask, Janet -- to those who say that there is much in the theory and it is the theory of evolution that is not, to this point, explicable by science. Whether it be the Cambrian Explosion or the relationship of extraordinarily complex functions and structures that are not easily certainly understood from one species to the next in terms of just general evolutionary theory.
WAUGH: Well, general evolutionary theory goes over billions of years.
DOBBS: Yes, ma'am.
WAUGH: There's not a macroevolution as people speak of it and basically scientists are constantly studying evolution, trying to figure out all the facts of how it happened. The reality is, though, if we go into intelligent design, we're basing it on faith. We're not basing it on natural. Science is based on natural causes. Intelligent design and other theories are based upon super natural, which require faith.
DOBBS: What do you say to that, John?
BACON: Well, I would say that some of the historical claims of science that Janet is talking about and I know that scientists do not want to differentiate between micro and macro evolution, but some of the historical claims of macroevolution, in my view, take faith to believe.
I mean, the scientific evidence is somewhat sketchy and some of it, anyway and so, I think that -- if some of those areas where science is not able to answer the questions, students should be able to raise issues or understand what other scientific evidence is out there and how to critically analyze that evidence.
DOBBS: And of course, it's also difficult when you talk about faith-based approaches -- whether it be to science, to economics or to religion, itself, those tough questions also come and certainly intelligent design will be readily challenged in the classroom by inquiring young minds. You think that's appropriate?
BACON: Well, I think the idea of origins of life, I didn't -- I'm not responsible for putting that question in the classroom. The textbooks have done that and where we come from is kind of a fundamental belief of everyone's religious views, whether they are theistic or nontheistic. So, I think our job in a public classroom where we are using public dollars, is to make sure that we're objective and we're as neutral as possible and we're not trying to support one particular religious view or the other.
DOBBS: Well, you're not suggesting, though, that -- and frankly, I will tell you I'm absolutely philosophically opposed to orthodoxy, whether it be in science or whether it be in almost any of life's disciplines. The idea that we would not be challenging all inquiry -- I mean, that's a fundamental tenant of science.
It's led to a few developments like the of the Salk vaccine. A better life for nearly everyone as a result of all the advances of medicine and all the developments in technology. I'm having a hard time understanding where you would draw the line in terms of what is science and what is not when it comes to evolution?
BACON: Well, we heard -- we did have public hearings in Kansas and Topeka and there were several scientists, individuals of the 23 that testified there was, I believe, 17 with doctor credentials and these are folks that are very skeptical about some of the historical claims of macroevolution.
DOBBS: Janet, let me ask you this: Skepticism is at the heart of great science and all the scientific advances that we all enjoy to this day. You're not afraid that science couldn't stand up to such skepticism whether put forward by intelligent design or any other inquiry or assertion, are you?
WAUGH: Absolutely not. I think that's what science is all about. Science is constantly reviewing, studying, seeking new answers, but they have to go - scientists to prove a theory, should go through the scientific process, through peer review, through things like that. Not through a political process.
In my opinion, they're trying to cut in line and go through the political process to get it put in the classroom and why -- if they would ever get any of this accepted by mainstream science, I would be the first one to support it.
DOBBS: Well, that's why God invented school boards, isn't it, folks?
WAUGH: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Janet, John, thank you both for being here. We appreciate your time.
BACON: Thank you.
WAUGH: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next: Securing our porous borders. One Iowa congressman calls a summit of leaders together to address the issue of a lack of a national immigration policy and rampant illegal immigration. Congressman Steve King is our guest.
And then: Iraq misses another deadline for completing its new constitution. A former constitutional adviser to Iraq is our guest here, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our guest tonight hosted our nation's leaders on immigration reform at a border summit held in Iowa today. Congressman Steve King is also the sponsor of legislation that would make English the official language of the United States. Congressman King joining us tonight from Council Bluffs, Iowa.
Congressman King, specifically, what do you think needs to be done, the top two or three priorities to resolve our immigration and border crisis?
REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: Well, the first thing we need to do is seal our borders, so that we stop the illegal traffic. There are as many as 3 million coming across our southern border every year. I would build a fence, I would beef up the Border Patrol. I would set up ability to incarcerate, more beds. We need to step up our domestic enforcement, so that we can clean up the violations here within the internal part of the United States.
And then, the central piece for me is to pass the New IDEA bill. It's the bill that taxes the wages and benefits that are paid to illegals, removes the federal deductibility for those expenses. And say, $1 million spent on illegals would turn into a $600,000 tax liability by the time you have taxes, interest and penalty on that. And that I think starts to dry up the job magnet. Employers that are hiring illegals are drawing people here. When they choose to no longer do that, people will start going south instead of coming north.
DOBBS: And the idea that the focus be put upon employers, who are at the root of the issue here, trying to attract illegal aliens and doing so to the point that we have about 20 million, an estimated 20 million illegal aliens in this country, according to the most recent Bear Stearns study. That would be the most effective thing that could be put in place, is it not, better than a fence, better than the National Guard?
KING: I would like to do all of those things that you mentioned, Lou. But in the center of this, we've got to find a way to dry up the jobs magnet. We know that the administration hasn't enforced a single employer sanction against an employer hiring illegals within more than the last year. So employers know that they can hire illegals with impunity, and every day that they get by without a sanction is another day they put profit in their pocket. This bill that I have, the New IDEA bill, allows the IRS rather than ICE to come in and enforce, and they have a six-year statute of limitations. So every day that an employer hires illegals, their potential liability to the federal government accrues and gets greater. That means that they'll make a rational decision, I think, and start to hire legals and prefer them over illegals.
DOBBS: Congressman, what do you say to those who suggest that people like you in Congress calling for tougher sanctions against illegal aliens are either racist or simply indifferent to the societal issues that surround illegal aliens in this country, that you don't understand the economics that demand a large illegal workforce?
KING: I understand the economics, Lou. And we pay a tremendous price to support the people that are working for sublevel wages. And if that's the best argument they have is to allege that a person is a racist, for example, then we're going to win this debate. I'm very confident we will, if that's the best they can throw at us.
But I'm concerned about the Constitution, the rule of law, cultural continuity, the future destiny of America. And no nation, and I think you've said this, you can't be a nation if you don't have a border. And so these are the things that we're trying to lay out here today.
DOBBS: Well, good for you, Congressman Steve King. We thank you very much for being with us.
KING: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in our poll. Do you believe that after declaring a state of emergency on their borders, both the governors of Arizona and New Mexico should call up the National Guard? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We will have the results coming up here in just a few minutes.
We want to take a look now at some of your thoughts. Kevin in Madison Heights, Michigan. "I learned English when I immigrated to this country. In fact, I didn't even know that English was not the official language of the United States until I watched your broadcast."
David in Florence, Massachusetts: "The term 'guest worker' seems like an oxymoron. What kind of guest refuses to abide by the host's rules?"
And Gwen in Portage, Michigan: "Maybe I am a poor student of American history, but I have never heard of another group of immigrants to the United States, legal or illegal, who demanded to be taught school in their native language and to receive free services at the expense of the American taxpayer like the Mexicans."
And Agga in Los Angeles, California: "I think English as an official language should not be tied in with racism. Immigrants who come to the United States should learn and adjust to customs and lifestyle in the United States. This includes English as an official language in the United States."
And from Fairfield, California, Patricia says: "The official language of the United States is English, by virtue of 200 years of usage. It is impossible to consider this racism. It is racist to demand that education and official documents be generated in an alternative language, because some immigrants decide not to embrace the whole of being American while seeking the benefits provided by American society."
And from Redlands, California, James says: "As a second- generation Italian-American, I can say all four of my grandparents legally came through Ellis Island, and they all learned English to the extent that I can only swear in Italian."
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." And you can sign up for our e-mail newsletter as well while at loudobbs.com.
At the top of the hour here on CNN, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Heidi Collins is sitting in tonight. Heidi, tell us all about it.
HEIDI COLLINS, GUEST HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": I sure will. Thank you, Lou. A special edition of "360" tonight. We're focusing on Eric Rudolph's sentencing. And we're talking to the people who know him best. In her first TV interview, you will hear from Eric Rudolph's mom. What does she think led her son to become a killer? And is she partly responsible?
And in an another exclusive interview tonight, Eric's former girlfriend says it's not Rudolph alone who is responsible for the bombings. We'll have all of that and much more -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Heidi.
Coming up next here,hear the results of our poll, and Iraq's ongoing struggle to write a constitution. My guest, a former senior adviser on writing a constitution in Iraq. He'll be here to explain how the Shias, Sunnis and Kurds are struggling to reach consensus -- an elusive consensus -- as it turns out. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we've reported, Iraqi officials today failing to meet an extended deadline for completing their new constitution. They did produce a draft. Iraqi leaders asked for three more days, trying to win the support of Sunni leaders, who are refusing to back this draft.
Joining me now, a former constitutional adviser in Iraq, Noah Feldman, joining us from Westport, Maine, tonight. Noah, this looks like nothing less than an artifice on the part of the Iraqis. They have missed another deadline. The Sunnis are making it clear that if there is strong federalism and demarcation within Iraq, they won't play. Is it over?
NOAH FELDMAN, FORMER CONSTITUTIONAL ADVISER, CPA: It's not over until it's over, and it's definitely not over. What is going on right now is that the Sunnis have said that they are not ready to buy into a draft that was basically produced without them. In the last few days, the negotiations have basically included the Shia and the Kurds. They reached a deal, but that leaves somebody holding the bag, and right now it's the Sunnis.
The next three days will tell whether they can get them on board.
DOBBS: The next three days -- there's been seven months of intense negotiation, as you know. The odds...
FELDMAN: I'm afraid I'm without sound.
DOBBS: I'm sorry? Noah, can you hear me? Noah Feldman, can you hear me? I understand...
FELDMAN: Yes, I can hear that.
DOBBS: Now I'm told you can't -- can you hear me, Noah?
FELDMAN: Yes, I can, Lou, sorry about that.
DOBBS: Not at all. We apologize. It's our technology that is not cooperating. We apologize to our viewers as well, as you -- the idea that the new constitution, its principal source will be Islam. Is this a problem?
FELDMAN: In the long run, it may well be a problem, because the Iraqis are trying to balance democracy and Islam. And that is one of the most delicate balances that you could imagine. The constitution also guarantees the equality of all persons, and it says that no law shall contradict Islam, or the principles of democracy. So it's trying to arrange a constitution that is truly Islamic and truly democratic at the same time.
In the short term, that will probably work, but in the long term, there are going to be big arguments about which of those two parts of the balance wins if they come into conflict.
DOBBS: Given that there's an issue now over federalism, the Kurds are assured of their autonomy in the north. The Shia, by force of their numbers, will be dominant in Iraq. If the Sunnis refuse to move forward, and they are talking about civil war, is it simply a fact of life that Iraq may have to go through civil war to reach a political and social as well as constitutional resolution?
FELDMAN: We haven't reached that dire a pass yet, though it's certainly not impossible. Right now, there are some Sunnis, the ones who are participating in the political process, who are saying that there is a deal that they can envision, but so far they haven't been met halfway by the Shia and the Kurds. What they are basically asking for is the greater representation and a greater say in the ratification of the constitution. Probably more jobs and probably more of the oil money.
If they get those things, they still may be able to convince other Sunnis that civil war is a dead end, which I think it certainly is for the Iraqis. And then we may head off the civil war option. But it's definitely in the background, and even as the constitution is being drafted, at the same time, the dangers of the civil war are rising with each passing day.
DOBBS: Rising with each passing day, and it's fairly clear that the insurgents within Iraq from various quarters are predominantly Sunni, whether nationalist or al Qaeda, or whatever their motivation. That cannot be helpful to them as they try to participate in the constitution and indeed their country's future.
FELDMAN: The key is really to split the insurgency into two camps. There are the jihadis, the al Qaeda types. They are never going to compromise. You can't deal with people like that. You can't negotiate with them. All you can do is defeat them in the long run and make them go away.
And so far, we haven't done it with all of our troops -- I shouldn't say with all of our troop, because our troop numbers have been limited. But with the troops we have, we haven't been able do it. What we need to do is get the Sunni who are a little bit more reasonable to themselves take up the fight, by bringing them into the army, by bringing them into the state. That's the only chance we really have of defeating the jihadis.
DOBBS: Noah Feldman, thank you.
The results now of our poll: 97 percent of you say that the governors of California -- of Arizona, rather, and New Mexico, 97 percent say that they should call up the National Guard to secure their borders during the state of emergency that both governors have called; 3 percent of you disagree.
Still ahead -- a look at what is coming up tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As of tonight, Judith Miller, the Pulitzer Prize-winning "New York Times" reporter has been in jail for 47 days for protecting her confidential sources in the White House CIA leak case.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Pleas join us here tomorrow. A former top FBI official warns that our government is failing to protect this country from another terrorist attack. We'll be joined by the governor of New York senior counterterrorism adviser James Kallstrom.
And the emerging debate on whether we should repopulate the Great Plains with the same wild animals that now grow in Africa. That's right, we're not kidding. We'll talk with two scientists with very different views. Please join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now with Heidi Collins -- Heidi.
END
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
