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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Democrats And Republicans Have Things To Be Thankful For; King Abdullah Calls For War Against Radical Islamist Terrorists; Chinese Government Strict With Motorcycles

Aired November 24, 2005 - 18:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROSCOE HOWARD, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: The government wants to bring an indictment that they want to make sure is clean and that they can win. They want to make sure that there are charges that won't present any problems. There could be witness problems. There are classified information problems.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. officials have previously said Abu Zubaydah and 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammad were the original sources of the information on Padilla and the dirty bomb and apartment plots.

Since al Qaeda prisoners have reportedly been subjected to harsh interrogation techniques, including one that simulates drowning, Padilla's lawyers would be sure to say their evidence was produced using torture.

DONNA NEWMAN, PADILLA DEFENSE ATTORNEY: God knows what kind of torture they were exposed to. And they don't want that to come out in the litigation.

ENSOR: CIA officials refuse all comment, but former officials say tough interrogation techniques used on al Qaeda prisoners have saved American lives and need to be kept secret, not discussed in open court.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, FORMER CIA DEPUTY DIRECTOR: I think it's important that we not be highly specific about what it is we will do and not do in dealing with detainees. If we are, that's going to go right into the al Qaeda counterinterrogation manual, and come right back at us in what is still a war.

ENSOR: Also, while in military hands, Padilla has spoken about the dirty bomb and apartment plots. But he was denied access to a lawyer during that time, so that evidence could not be used in civilian court.

(on camera): So the government has settled for lesser charges of support for terrorism against Jose Padilla, who officials say may be moved into the regular prison system as early as next week.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Now, in a moment, three top political and legal commentators will tell us what Republicans and Democrats should be thankful for, for this Thanksgiving.

But first, here's what is happening now.

More violence in Iraq today, as our troops celebrated Thanksgiving. Thirty Iraqis were killed in a car bomb attack at a hospital, and two U.S. soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb.

Plus, a balloon accident injured two people at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade in New York. Both victims, a woman and her 11-year-old sister, were released from the hospital after treatment.

And in Chicago today, another train crash, this time involving a freight train. Three people were slightly hurt. It came one day after a commuter train crash that injured 16 people.

Joining us now is Bill Schneider, senior political analyst for CNN; Jeff Greenfield, senior analyst for CNN; and Hank Sheinkopf, who's a leading Democratic political consultant with extensive campaign experience.

And thank you, gentlemen, for joining us.

We are taking stock of what to be thankful for, for both the Democrats and the Republicans.

And let's start with Bill Schneider. What do you think, Bill, that the Republicans have to be thankful for on this holiday?

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That the election, the midterm election, is a whole year away. If the midterm election had been November 2005, instead of November 2006, then Republicans would have faced this. They would have gotten it in the neck. And the midterm elections, I mean, the off-year elections this year showed that.

Let me give you another thing Republicans should be thankful for. This may sound obscure, the Arab League. The Arab League is an organization of Arab governments. They met in Cairo a few days ago with representatives of the Sunni and Shiite communities in Iraq. Not the Kurds, the Kurds are not Arabs. And they reached an agreement.

The agreement endorsed by the Arab League said that they wanted to see a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

Well, a lot of Republicans in Congress are saying, Hallelujah. They are desperate that there's some kind of exit strategy in place before the November 2006 midterm elections, so they can say, We're in the process of withdrawing. And the Arab League has given them cover.

PILGRIM: You're not suggesting some kind of coalition, are you, Bill?

SCHNEIDER: Coalition between...

PILGRIM: The Arab League. No.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHNEIDER: Well, no, but I think the Arab League does give them cover they need. You know, the Democrats have been talking about a timetable, and the Bush administration, the White House, won't accept it. But if the Arab League says, Sunnis and Shiites want to see the withdrawal of American troops on a timetable, then the White House can say, Well, it's what they want.

PILGRIM: OK, anything else to add to your thank list?

SCHNEIDER: For Republicans? Well, I think that the redistricting system has been helpful to them, because it protects a lot of incumbents, and also the campaign finance system. It means they have a lot of advantages, since Republicans are most of the incumbents in both the Senate and the House. They have a lot of protection from the campaign finance laws and from the redistricting that means that it would take an earthquake to dislodge those Republican majorities.

But I'll tell you something, earthquakes happen.

PILGRIM: OK, let's go to Jeff. Jeff, the thank list for Republicans.

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: The fact that they control both houses of Congress. Because if the Democrats controlled either the House or the Senate, what you would be seeing throughout Bush's second term is a never-ending wave of congressional investigations. Why is Iraq going as badly as it is?

I think that the lobbying, the Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal, which really does threaten Republicans, would be even worse, not that John McCain has been holding back. And I think you'd see a whole range of constant headlines about Congress probing. And the Republicans, being in control, don't do that to their administration.

PILGRIM: It's really hard to envision bipartisan bickering getting even more extreme, though. (INAUDIBLE).

GREENFIELD: Well, but the point is, the (INAUDIBLE) -- that whoever runs the House and the Senate sets the agenda. The Democrats can't. They can do a minority investigation. They can't order a government operations committee to probe with all of the power and all the headline-making capacity of a congressional committee.

So I think that that's a very -- I think it may be, you know, breathtakingly obvious. But we sometimes overlook that in looking for the obscure. They run the Congress, and there is a certain amount of protection for the president, even though that has its limits, as current job approval ratings suggest.

PILGRIM: That's a great point. Hank?

HANK SHEINKOPF, POLITICAL CONSULTANT: I don't think there's a lot for the Republicans to be happy about or thankful about. They should be -- they should consider themselves lucky that members of the House rose to Jack Murtha, Representative Jack Murtha of Pennsylvania, the respected Vietnam veteran, decorated, and expert on defense matters, that Republican members rose to his defense when he was attacked this week. That was smart.

But what it tells you is that the Republicans in the House and the Republicans in the Senate understand that they are at risk. Look for them to figure out a way to soften their images somewhat, to move religion outside of their daily discourse, and to try to deal with budget and finance matters, because the Democrats' best shot, frankly, in the future is where it's always been, economics.

PILGRIM: Coming up next, we'll discuss what the Democrats have to be thankful for in our political roundtable.

And a famous author is taking on the fight against radical Islamist terrorism. Salman Rushdie with Lou Dobbs just ahead.

And are the Chinese ready to live high on the hog? Well, one classic American company on a major road trip hoping to gain access to the Chinese market.

We'll have that story. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: More now with our political round table, Bill Schneider, Jeff Greenfield, and Hank Sheinkopf.

And we moved our discussion to the other side of the aisle, and I asked Bill Schneider what the Democrats have to be thankful this holiday season.

SCHNEIDER: Democrats, they should be thankful for prosecutors. Look at these prosecutors, they're busy at work going after Republicans. Ronnie Earle going after Tom DeLay in Texas, a prosecutor Washington going after Bill Frist and his stock dealings, prosecutors in Miami and Washington going after Jack Abramoff. And the most important, Patrick Fitzgerald, he has a very nonpartisan image, going after the CIA leak investigation.

I think Democrats are just dancing at the name of every one of these prosecutors. They better be careful, though. Prosecutors go after Democrats too.

PILGRIM: Yes, it is prosecutor season. It sure is.

Jeff?

GREENFIELD: I think the Democrats ought to be thankful for powerlessness, in a time when people are very unhappy, when the right track-wrong track numbers that pollsters and media types look at are very bad in terms of pessimism. The Democrats are completely out of power, which may not sound like good news for a political party, but it means that even though their image is every bit as bad as Republicans in Congress, if people go to polls next year in an angry, throw-the-rascals-out mood, they're much more likely to say, OK, the rascals in power are Republicans.

The other thing that keeps Democrats away from is having to actually come up with concrete solutions. So that, for instance, if the country thinks Iraq is going badly, you know, off the tracks, the Democrats don't really have to answer the question, OK, things have gone bad, they've botched the reconstruction, maybe they even cherry- picked the intelligence.

Fine. Now what? Well, they're not in charge of anything.

PILGRIM: But for the moment, they can take the high ground and nit-pick, right?

GREENFIELD: Well, I'm not sure if it's high ground or low ground, but it's the...

PILGRIM: (INAUDIBLE).

GREENFIELD: ... those guys screwed up. And you know what? It gives them the possibility next year of resurrecting a famous campaign slogan from another landslide in 1946, when the Republicans swept to power in Washington. You know what their slogan was?

PILGRIM: What?

GREENFIELD: "Had enough?" It doesn't tell you -- that's not a Contract with America, that's not a 10-point program, that just crystallizes the anger. And if that anger is around next year, the fact that the Democrats didn't run on anything means they can say, Had enough?

PILGRIM: Interesting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you're the consultant, though.

PILGRIM: Yes.

SHEINKOPF: The Democrats, Democrats have a lot to be happy about and thankful for. If I were looking at it as a national Democratic thinker, I'd say, Thank you, Taft family, in Ohio, for having corruption scandals in a state which, frankly, could flip, where Democrats could pick up a significant number of seats and set the table for 2008, a state which has voted historically Republican in many instances. I'd be very grateful about that.

I'd be very grateful for President Bush picking, if I were the Democrats, the wrong door to walk out of when he was in China just recently, because it looks like he just wasn't in control.

And I would be thankful, frankly, for the fact that New York state will elect a Republican -- a Democrat governor next year, which -- and will probably reelect Hillary with significant numbers, setting the tenor nationally. Because what happens in New York, frankly, is significant from a news coverage standpoint. I think they're on a roll. PILGRIM: Well, lest we be accused of egging on both parties at each other's throats, let's just look for one thing that the entire country can be thankful for. And both parties.

And let's start with Bill. Perhaps -- may I suggest maybe the economy? Are we seeing some improvement there, Bill?

SCHNEIDER: Well, we are seeing some improvement. The economy is not helping George Bush very much, because voters don't know that he has very much to do with it. What's his economic program? Tax cuts. And people don't think his tax cuts are really making a lot of difference in the economy.

But the economy's doing pretty well. You know, there's an old saying in politics, If the economy is bad, the economy is the issue. Ask Bush's father. If the economy is good, something else is the issue. And that's where we are right now, Iraq.

PILGRIM: OK. Jeff?

GREENFIELD: Well, first of all, I'm going to dissent about the economic view, only because I think a lot of people who I've talked to for the last couple of years have said, Short term, things may be OK, but the long-term prospects, by which they mean a decade or less out, the lack of a savings rate, the crisis coming -- coming crisis in pension and health care benefits, the twin tower deficits of the trade deficit and the national deficit.

I think that both parties, actually, the reason why they shouldn't be thankful is, it is not inconceivable that 10 years out, people are going to be so angry with both parties have done, they may turn to an alternative.

I think what people ought to be -- that both parties ought to be grateful for, actually, is the relative -- and I underscore relative -- civility of American politics. Even in the so-called poisonous age -- and it is, compared to the '70s, really ugly in Washington -- compared to less-stable countries, this is still a country where the tanks don't roll in the streets, and where people, you know, where people argue out differences.

And it may be that the public will eventually -- and I have a feeling this may be coming sooner than other people think -- is going to say, Enough. We're tired of both of you. So they ought to be thankful for a system that lets it be possible to correct even the ugly side of politics that's cropping up.

PILGRIM: That's excellent.

And Hank?

SHEINKOPF: That this democracy still continues is an extraordinary thing, considering the unpopularity of the president, the fact that people aren't talking but arguing.

But I would add something else to something Jeff said a moment ago. Both parties are in trouble. The difference is, the Democrats resurrect themselves. They were very good defending the New Deal. They can do that very well. That's why Social Security remains where it is. They're very good at watching and taking advantage of Republican fumbles.

And Republicans are in a very brittle coalition. So both sides -- which could fall apart. It's based upon religious activity in the South and a whole bunch of other things. But be that as it may, they ought to be thankful they can hold those positions into the new year.

But we need to stay tuned, because this can change.

PILGRIM: All right. Gentlemen, happy Thanksgiving. And thanks for being with us, Bill Schneider, Jeff Greenfield, and Hank Sheinkopf. Thank you, gentlemen.

Tonight's thought is on giving thanks, and here is a quote. "We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We've been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has ever grown." That from Abraham Lincoln.

Coming up next, Salman Rushdie speaks out against radical Islamist terrorism. We'll have his interview with Lou Dobbs next.

And is there a market in China for a true American classic? Harley-Davidson is hoping to turn China into hog heaven.

We'll have that story just ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'd like to say happy Thanksgiving and happy holidays to all my family, my fiancee, Ashley, and my parents, just everybody back at home. Love you guys. Miss you. Bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: King Abdullah of Jordan today called for an all-out war against radical Islamist terrorists. The king's declaration follows al Qaeda's terrorist attacks against three hotels in the Jordanian capital of Amman. Those attacks killed 63 people, including the three suicide bombers.

World-renowned author Salman Rushdie is also involved in the fight against radical Islamist terrorism. Rushdie is calling on Muslim moderates to reform Islam and defeat the radical Islamists who have hijacked their faith.

Now, he also published a new novel, "Shalimar the Clown," which addresses the rise of -- in Islamic fundamentalism.

And Lou Dobbs spoke with Salman Rushdie about his book and the state of radical Islam. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Your novel deals with the foundation, the sweep of the contest between Western civilization and radical Islamist fundamentalism. Why such a broad approach, whether it be from Kashmir to Los Angeles?

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: ... different approach.

SALMAN RUSHDIE, AUTHOR, "SHALIMAR THE CLOWN": It's the subject of our time, isn't it? One of the -- so many writers, I'm including myself, are trying to find a way inside the skin of this strange process of thought and feeling that leads people to become men of violence.

And I think the other thing we've learned, haven't we, since 9/11, is the way in which the world no longer operates in separate neat little boxes, but the stories of one part of the world literally smash into the stories of other parts of the world.

So in order to understand the story of New York, you know, you now have to understand the story of the Arab world as well.

DOBBS: You even brought in Los Angeles, which takes a lot of understanding all by itself.

RUSHDIE: It does. Well, that's a kind of -- you know, there's two paradises in this -- in my novel. There's the Indian paradise of Kashmir, and the Western paradise of L.A., of California, kind of juxtaposed.

DOBBS: As we look at the roots of radical fundamentalism, what I term -- what we term here radical Islamist terror, there can be great, sweeping sociological statements, psychological statements, you know, look to religiosity of those causes. The fact is, there's a basic right and wrong in this world.

RUSHDIE: Yes, sure.

DOBBS: I did not feel you, as -- making value judgments about right and wrong, but really looking to the causal relationships.

RUSHDIE: I think, you see, the problem is, the right and wrong judgments are really quite easy to make, you know, and therefore, they don't get one very far in something as complex as a novel. Understanding is a lot harder.

(CROSSTALK)

RUSHDIE: You know? And I think that it is remarkable, the way in which people are joining these groups, for actually not particularly ideological reasons. Obviously, there are ideologues at the top. And there are people who join them for -- because of weak personalities, or because they're just thugs, or because they need a paycheck, or et cetera. So there's a whole range of reasons why people go down the jihadist road.

DOBBS: A host of reasons. The president has, of late, President Bush, who has styled this a war on terror -- frankly, I have been very critical of this administration for not styling it what it is, a war on radical Islamists. He has begun to talk about the ideology of the radical Islamists, and about the scope of their strategy and their vision. Do you -- has that struck you at all?

RUSHDIE: Of course, the fundamental, the most often-stated goal is something that was never going to happen, which is the restoration of the so-called Islamic caliphate.

DOBBS: The caliphate.

RUSHDIE: And that's a kind of fantasy goal, you know. Along the way, there's a great deal of destruction taking place.

But one of the things I've felt about the war on terror is that the real solution to it will come from inside the Muslim world. You know, it's Muslims who have been most oppressed by radical Islam.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

RUSHDIE: You know, in Afghanistan, people detested the Taliban. In Kashmir, where my novel takes place, a moderate, harmonious form of Islam is being oppressed by radical, fanatical forms of Islam.

And just as the IRA was brought to the peace table because it lost support of its own constituency, the Northern Ireland Catholics, you know, that's -- that is what will do it in this world as well.

DOBBS: Although, of course, the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia provided a narrow base of support and far more difficult to erode their convictions than perhaps a broader population.

RUSHDIE: That's right. Well, and it does need the broad mass of Muslims to stand up and say, Enough.

DOBBS: Salman Rushdie, we thank you for being here. The book is "Shalimar, the Clown." Terrific. Thank you very much.

RUSHDIE: Thank you.

PILGRIM: As Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, residents of England and Wales have something to celebrate as well. Beginning tonight, pubs in England and Wales can stay open 24 hours a day. Now, pubs used to close at 11:00 p.m. But critics said that simply led to heavy drinking just before closing time.

There are fears this new law will lead to even more binge drinking, though. But officials say this new law can help save lives, because without a set closing time, there won't be as many tipsy motorists on the street at the same time, and so many drunks on the street at the same time.

Still ahead, Harley-Davidson wants to see bikers in Beijing. But red-hot wheels will have to wait. We'll have a special report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: China's toxic-leak emergency is deepening tonight. Massive amounts of the chemical benzene is now flowing downstream into one of China's main cities, Harbin. Now, the benzene spilled into the river into -- after a chemical plant explosion.

And Harbin is in northeast China. It's completely shut down the water system, thousands evacuating. Harbin is now 400 miles from the Chinese border, and tonight Russian officials are being warned that the poison water will soon flow into their border towns.

Well, tonight, Chinese goods flood into the United States. And American companies are fighting hard just to break into the Chinese market. And one of those companies is Harley-Davidson. Chinese are eager to live high on the hog. But so far, the Chinese government won't let them.

Eunice Yoon reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EUNICE YOON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These Harley- Davidson bikers are gearing up for a road trip into China. Led by Hong Kong Harley Club president Doc Ray, 80 riders are crossing the border to Gway Lin (ph), as part of a ride to honor the iconic American motorcycle.

RAYMOND "DOC RAY" MA, HARLEY OWNER: Whenever we go into the China, it attracts crowds, crowds, lots of crowds.

YOON: But they're unlikely to see many other Harleys there. China restricts motorcycle licenses, partly to reduce pollution and traffic congestion in cities, effectively barring the U.S. motorcycle maker from the China market.

DAVID FOLEY, MD CHINA HARLEY-DAVIDSON: Every time we go into a new market, we face sort of challenges. And China's really no different. We're creating good alliances with the motorcycle industry and talking to government officials, and doing all the things you have to do to be successful in China.

YOON: Like Foley, many U.S. executives want China to open its markets to U.S. goods, crack down on piracy, and to revalue its currency, the yuan. They hope to boost U.S. exports to China and give U.S. manufacturers a fighting chance at home against cheap Chinese goods.

The latest trade figures show $133 billion of Chinese goods hit U.S. stores this year to October, compared to just $40 billion in American goods bound for China.

(on camera): And though many U.S. firms make and sell products for the Chinese market in China, companies like Harley-Davidson just want an easier ride selling their American-made bikes there. (voice-over): Harley hopes to open retail stores and target young, rich Chinese urbanites.

LARRY RINALDI, CONSULTANT: Harley is just so much about freedom and the sense of the outdoors and adventure and excitement. And I think Chinese are ready for that.

YOON: But for now, Doc Ray and his bikers are on their own. The road to China for Harley-Davidson and other American companies could be a long one.

Eunice Yoon, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Thanks for being with us tonight. Have a very happy Thanksgiving. For all of us here, good night from New York.

Ali Velshi is joining us from "THE SITUATION ROOM" next. Ali?

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