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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bringing Troops Home; Bus Bombing in Iraq; Bush Bounce; Costa Mesa Cops To Enforce Immigration Laws; China Attempts To Sell Even More Inexpensive Goods To U.S.; Rumsfeld Changes His Language; Speculation That Lieberman Could Replace Rumsfeld;
Aired December 08, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, the Pentagon is considering plans to bring thousands of our troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan without replacing them. Defense officials say two Army brigades scheduled to deploy to Iraq could be held back, as could one brigade due to go to Afghanistan.
President Bush today talked about the war in Iraq with senior Republican leaders at the White House, while Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld met with lawmakers on Capitol Hill.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's been no secret that after next week's parliamentary elections the Pentagon plans to pull some 23,000 troops from Iraq who were kept there to beef up security during the voting. That would quickly reduce U.S. troops levels from a high of roughly 160,000 to about 137,000. But Pentagon officials say that could drop down to 127,000 by simply not sending two Army brigades, roughly 10,000 soldiers, who were scheduled to rotate into Iraq next year.
One brigade from the Army's 1st Infantry Division in Fort Riley, Kansas, would stay home. The other, from the 1st Armored Division in Germany, is already deployed, but only to Kuwait, where they are serving as a quick reaction force.
But Democrats in Congress, led by former Marine John Murtha, argue that even with deep troop cuts, the remaining forces are still vulnerable.
REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: If you have half the troops there, you're going to still have to supply them, re-supply them on the ground, and they're going to be attacked.
MCINTYRE: The debate is over how fast the U.S. should force the fledgling Iraqi military to take the lead.
REP. ELLEN TAUSCHER (D), CALIFORNIA: We are right now fighting a civil war on behalf of Iraqis that want self-government. We are fighting other Iraqis on behalf of Iraqis. MCINTYRE: In Afghanistan, a similar idea is under consideration, keeping a brigade from the 10th Mountain Division in Fort Drum, New York, to reduce U.S. troop levels in Afghanistan from 18,000 to roughly 13,000, as NATO makes up the difference with 6,000 additional troops. NATO troops would take over security functions, leaving U.S. forces free to hunt for Taliban and al Qaeda fighters, including Osama bin Laden, who is still believed to be hiding across the border in Pakistan.
LT. GEN. KARL EIKENBERRY, U.S. COMMANDER, AFGHANISTAN: And our forces will not rest until he is either found and captured or killed.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Your working assumption, I take it, remains that he is alive today. Do you still believe, does the U.S. military still believe he is somewhere inside Pakistan along the border?
EIKENBERRY: Our working assumption is, Barbara, that he is alive today. I will not speculate on to his location.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Pentagon officials say there have been no decisions yet on those further troop cuts. They say it's not a timetable, it's a plan that they say will be based entirely on how things are going on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you.
Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
Three Americans have been killed in Iraq over the past 24 hours. A U.S. Marine killed in combat in Ramadi, while another American soldier was killed by a roadside bomb in Baghdad. And the State Department says an American contractor has been killed near Kirkuk.
In other violence, a suicide bomber in a bus in Baghdad killed 30 people.
Aneesh Raman, he reports now from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A week to go until Iraq's general elections and attacks in the capital are on the rise. Thursday, a deadly suicide bombing in southern Baghdad on a passenger bus headed to the Shia city of Nasiriya. At least 30 killed, 20 others wounded. The bus, now charred debris; the dead, those heading home for the weekend.
It comes just two days after dual suicide bombers detonated at an Iraqi police academy in eastern Baghdad, killing 40. And despite what the U.S. military says has been a drop by almost half in attacks from October to November, they are now on high alert.
MAJ. GEN. RICK LYNCH, U.S. ARMY: Zarqawi is still out there. We've got a week to the election. He's feeling the pressure. He's supposed to derail the democratic process and discredit the Iraqi government. And he's going to mount these operations.
Remember, his weapon of choice is a suicide bomb. So it's still out there.
RAMAN: Also in the past two weeks, at least seven Westerners have been taken hostage. On Wednesday, new video emerged of American Tom Fox and British national Norman Kember, shown in orange jumpsuits. Both kidnapped, along with two other Canadian Christian aid workers.
(on camera): In advance of the election, non-Iraqi Arabs have been barred from entering the country. A state of emergency has been declared in two volatile provinces, and a curfew is set to be imposed in Baghdad. A virtual lockdown ahead of the country's next major political milestone.
Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The conduct of the war in Iraq has been a major drag on the president's poll numbers. But a new opinion poll shows President Bush's approval rating has bounced back now from historic lows, and bounced back strongly. The main reason appears to be that voters are feeling more optimistic about the direction of the economy.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): No one in the White House seems to like polls very much, not even Barney.
LYNNE CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY'S WIFE: Oh, Barney. Have you seen the latest presidential pet poll numbers? Not good.
SCHNEIDER: But what's this, a poll with good news for President Bush? Well, yes, sort of.
The latest times "New York Times"-CBS News poll shows President Bush's job approval rating going up. Yes, up, from 35 percent at the end of October to 40 percent now. It's not exactly a breathtaking reversal.
President Bush's job approval, which shot up after September 11, 2001, has been going steadily downhill since. The current blip upward is right there at the very end, right there. See it?
What's that about? The economy, stupid.
The number who say the country's economy is in good shape has increased from 47 to 55 percent over the past month. Next year, it will be Republicans versus Democrats in the battle for Congress. The scorecard in that race still doesn't look too good for the GOP. Democrats get higher ratings on the economy, and on Iraq... SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: You have a lot of disarray and disagreement within the Democratic Party.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, you do. But Democrats still get slightly higher ratings than Republicans on Iraq. Members of Congress are nervous about the immigration issue. They should be. The polls show neither party has a strong edge on immigration.
Now here's a surprise. Republicans have been suffering from a wave of scandals: Duke Cunningham, Tom DeLay, Bill Frist, Scooter Libby, Jack Abramoff, Michael Scanlon. But when voters are asked which party has higher ethical standards, 34 percent say Republicans and 31 percent say Democrats. Neither party occupies the ethical high ground.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: When voters here about wrongdoing in Washington, their first thought isn't Republicans or Democrats. It's politicians -- Lou.
DOBBS: And politicians look like they might be surveying a remarkable opportunity here for a third party initiation. What do you think?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it happened -- the last time this happened, we saw figures like this, discontent with Congress, with politicians, was in the early 1990s. And you know what happened? You know what that brought about? A guy named Ross Perot. Maybe he'll come back.
DOBBS: And whoever that might be, should there be such a person, having quite a historical impact.
Thank you very much.
Bill Schneider.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: The Bush administration tonight is claiming a major breakthrough in its efforts to convince Congress to introduce tough measures against terrorist suspects in this country. Congressional negotiators have agreed to renew the Patriot Act, but some of the most controversial measures will be extended for four years, not 10, as originally proposed.
The provisions include FBI access to libraries and business records, authorization to carry out roving wiretaps on terror suspects, and standards for monitoring so-called lone wolf terrorists who may be operating independently of a foreign agent or power.
Congressional negotiators tonight are also on the brink of a deal to ban the torture and inhumane treatment of terror suspects in American custody. A deal would be a major setback for Vice President Cheney, who wants the CIA to be exempt from any ban on torture.
Ed Henry has the report from Capitol Hill -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, two congressional sources tell CNN tonight that House negotiators have told Senate leaders privately they are now willing to accept John McCain's ban on torture. That's a complete 180 from where the House negotiators started. And also, as you indicated, that would be a blow to Vice President Cheney, who behind the scenes has been lobbying vigorously against this ban on torture.
These sources caution, though, the deal is not final. McCain is still ironing out some details with White House National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. But they say that House negotiators have been privately saying that they are willing to now accept the McCain language virtually word for word. And in fact, the lead House negotiator, House Armed Services Chairman Duncan Hunter, told CNN today that he believes that in the final product, the McCain language will be "strongly manifested."
The international pressure on the Bush administration has been taking its toll. That's why there has been this breakthrough.
You can see that pressure building today. When I caught up with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in a capitol corridor, he did not want to discuss this subject.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Mr. Secretary, is the administration giving in on the McCain torture amendment? Are you going to accept the language?
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The White House has been doing all of this. You'll have to talk to them.
HENRY: But you're the defense secretary. Are you accepting the torture amendment, the McCain language? Presumably this is your area.
RUMSFELD: I've said to you that the White House is handling the negotiations on it (INAUDIBLE).
HENRY: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, sources say that votes could come as early as next Wednesday in the House and Thursday in the Senate, when all the details are hammered out -- Lou.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable time in American history that there should be any debate or discussion about what is culturally, socially, historically an absolute ban. There is nothing in our traditions that tolerates torture.
HENRY: Absolutely, and one of the arguments from Duncan Hunter has been, look, it's already on the books, he's been showing a statute saying that you can't torture. And John McCain has been saying, well, there is plenty of redundancies actually in American code across the board, why not finally tell the international community that it is banned once and for all -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry, thank you very much from Capitol Hill.
New developments tonight in the CIA White House leak investigation. Today, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald questioned "TIME" magazine reporter Viveca Novak. Fitzgerald declined to comment to reporters, but it is believed Fitzgerald wants information about conversation between Viveca Novak and attorney Robert Luskin, the attorney for presidential adviser Karl Rove.
Rove, of course, remains under investigation. The vice president's former chief of staff, Scooter Libby, has been indicted.
Fitzgerald's investigation has now gone on for 708 days. That's more than twice as long as Watergate.
Still ahead, the White House weighs in on the deadly shooting controversy at the Miami International Airport. We'll have the very latest for you.
And Congress preparing for an historic debate on our immigration and border security crisis. We'll be live in Washington.
And communist China planning a massive new assault on American consumers. Our special report is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The White House today supporting the air marshals who shot and killed a man at Miami International Airport because they believed he was carrying a bomb. White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the air marshals appear to have acted properly. No bomb was found at the scene, and there are reports that the man was mentally ill.
John Zarrella has the report now from Miami International Airport -- John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we can tell you that Mr. Alpizar's body remains here in Miami. The medical examiner continuing the autopsy.
At the same time, Miami-Dade police continuing their investigation into the shooting on the jetway, and late this afternoon issued a statement which went back and detailed what happened, the events that transpired. And after the air marshals managed to get Mr. Alpizar out into the jetway, when he went into the jetway, at that point they confronted him.
At that point, according to the statement released this afternoon, he apparently yelled that he had a bomb and that he was willing to use it. According to the statement, the air marshals ordered him to surrender. He refused. And that's when they discharged their firearms.
Now, the two agents have been put on administrative leave. Both of those agents have been with the Air Marshal Service since 2002.
Now, meanwhile, in Orlando, members of Rigoberto Alpizar's family came out this afternoon and issued a very brief statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNE JENTSCH, ALPIZAR'S SISTER-IN-LAW: Rigo Alpizar was a loving, gentle and caring husband, uncle, brother, son and friend. He was born in Costa Rica and became a proud American citizen several years ago. He will be sorely missed by all who knew him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELLA: According to authorities here, his wife, Ann, after he was shot, at that point told authorities that her husband suffered from bipolar disorder. Friends and family in the neighborhood say that this man that they are seeing and hearing about is nothing like the man that they knew.
He worked for the Home Depot there in Orlando for three years. Before that he worked for another paint store. And everyone was saying, Lou, that he was "a very nice man" -- Lou.
DOBBS: The circumstances of his death are tragic. And all of us, our hearts go out to the Alpizar family.
And at the same time, the air marshals who were put on administrative leave, I think we should first state that that is standard operating procedure in any shooting incident. Is that correct, John?
ZARRELLA: Yes, that's correct Lou. Until everything is determined as to the shooting, until the Miami-Dade investigation is complete. But from every indication at this point, there appears to be no question at this point that what they did was completely within the bounds of following their procedures.
DOBBS: And given the circumstance, at least as we know them, exactly what those air marshals are expected to do, what they're responsible to do.
John Zarrella from Miami International.
Thank you.
From Iowa to Texas, severe early season snowstorms and bitter cold temperatures hitting our nation's midsection with full force today. Tonight, the severe winter storms are heading east. The heaviest band of snow falling across Missouri, where as much as 10 inches of snow has been recorded.
Temperatures in the state and across much of the Midwest, today, in fact, falling into the single digits. At least three people were killed by these dangerous storms on the roadways, and airports all across the country experiencing severe delays tonight as a result. Indiana and New York State tonight are looking at the prospect of six to eight inches of snow, as the storms move east. Pennsylvania and New England, they're expected to see 10 inches or more of snow this evening.
Still ahead here, the great American visa giveaway, while the World Trade Organization may soon have more power than the U.S. Congress, the president, and certainly you and me.
And Donald Rumsfeld's exit strategy. Some say Democrat Joe Lieberman has an inside track to replace the defense secretary next year. We'll find out a great deal more about the defense secretary's plans here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On the agenda at next week's World Trade Organization meeting, U.S. immigration policy. Unbelievably, a dozen developing countries and U.S. big businesses want the WTO to expand the number of visas allowing foreign workers into the United States, effectively giving the WTO immigration powers and taking it away from Congress and the American people.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): There is a serious movement under way to put U.S. immigration policy in the hands of the World Trade Organization. Developing nations led by India want more work visas so their citizens can take American jobs. And they're pushing hard for the WTO to use its rules to get them.
SARAH ANDERSON, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: It's an example of the mission creep really of the World Trade Organization. This is not just about goods crossing borders anymore.
ROMANS: Anderson says it essentially labels workers as a traded commodity.
ANDERSON: I think something that is so sensitive as migration policy and so complicated, we really don't want to be negotiated in back-room deals by trade officials.
ROMANS: And many say it takes vital immigration policy out of the hands of Congress, threatening American sovereignty.
IRA MEHLMAN, FED. FOR AMER. IMMIGRATION REFORM: American immigration policy ought to be the exclusive province of our government. Our Congress ought to make those decisions based on an objective assessment of the needs and the interests of this country.
ROMANS: The Constitution clearly gives Congress powers over immigration, and Congress has warned the U.S. trade office in the past against giving away visa power in trade negotiations.
Last month, trade representative Rod Portman said any new visas issued under WTO rules could only come after the U.S. gets its own enforcement problems under control. After all, a significant part of this country's illegal immigration is foreign workers who overstay visas.
But he told Indian business leaders he is, "talking to members of Congress about it, and I am hopeful that we can make progress."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: That would be progress for big business and for foreign workers so foreign workers can come here and American companies can get into new markets. Of course, American workers are a bargaining chip, then, in an international trade round.
DOBBS: Well, it looks like American workers have, as has been the course over the past 10 years, simply been sold out already. The bargaining is basically done.
I don't believe that even 5 percent of Americans know that the WTO has this kind of power right now and reaching for greater power over U.S. immigration policy.
ROMANS: I think you're absolutely right. We are making promises to a world body for U.S. immigration.
DOBBS: Congress gave away its responsibilities to negotiate trade, did the fast track in 1976. So they're basically passive and a rubber stamp, for all practical purposes. With the WTO agreement in Hong Kong next week, they can simply solve (ph) themselves a responsibility on visa issues and immigration.
ROMANS: We'll have to see if Congress is gong to stand for it.
DOBBS: Christine Romans.
Thank you very much.
That brings us to our poll tonight. Do you believe the United States should permit the WTO to direct our immigration policy such as it is, yes or no? We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com.
Up next, the broken border debate finally heading to the floor of the House of Representatives for the first time in almost a decade. We'll have that special report.
And it's Beijing on the Hudson tonight. Communist China's new push to sell its cheap goods in New York City. Chinese brands everywhere. A live report coming up next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: The House of Representatives is now gearing up for what would be an historic debate next week on our nation's border emergency. The House is set for its first floor debate on the illegal alien and border security crisis in almost a decade, following an action today on an important piece of broken borders legislation.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Judiciary Chairman James Sensenbrenner's immigration enforcement bill was approved by a committee vote 23-15 along party lines.
REP. JIM SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: Border and security in lax enforcement of our nation's immigration laws poses a security threat to the American people and rewards those who violate the law.
SYLVESTER: The Sensenbrenner bill expands an employment verification system called SAVE that screens job applicants using federal records to make sure they are in the country legally. It increases penalties for alien smuggling, establishes mandatory minimum penalties for aliens caught using the border as a revolving door, and makes it easier to deport illegal alien gang members.
The bill, most strikingly, does not include a guest worker program. It didn't pass committee without a fight. One Democrat called it heinous. Another predicting industry would shut down.
REP. HOWARD BERMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: Perishable fruits and vegetables in the United States disappear. The tourism and hospitality industries, massive disruptions.
SYLVESTER: But Representative Louie Gohmert, a former judge, embraced the provisions, telling a story of an illegal alien who he sent to prison with multiple DWI convictions.
REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: And they deported him, but they didn't wait long enough at the border to watch him come back across and come to our county so that he could hit other citizen while intoxicated.
SYLVESTER: The real fight lies in the full House. Democrats will try as they did in committee to carve out conceptions. On the other hand, the House Immigration Caucus held a news conference seeking to add even tougher provisions.
Congressman Tom Tancredo called it a good bill, but far from a great bill.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Among other things, we need a fence. It is a low tech but highly effective way of stemming the flow of illegal immigrants into this country.
SYLVESTER: The Immigration Caucus also wants to authorize local officers to detain illegal aliens and add hundreds of agents for work site enforcement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The full House is expected to take up the bill next Thursday, and the word is that some of the Republican leadership may push for an even stronger bill. In the words of one on Capitol Hill, they're looking for red meat amendments, concrete enforcement measures to take back to the conservative base over the holiday recess -- Lou.
DOBBS: Is there a sense that this is real political progress, that the U.S. Congress has found a backbone and means to work in the interests of this country's legal citizens?
SYLVESTER: I think we're definitely going to see some type of enforcement coming out of here. The question is whether on the Senate side, if they're going to try sneak in and get that guest worker bill in.
DOBBS: You don't that, do you? It would be a remote possibility, our fine friends in the Senate. Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Tonight, a town in southern California is taking matters into its own hands in our nation's broken borders crisis. Costa Mesa, California, it's 100 miles from the border with Mexico. It will soon have the first local police force in the nation with the authority to enforce federal immigration laws.
Under a new agreement, local police will have the power to investigate whether criminal suspects in their custody are also illegal aliens. Only federal agents are able to investigate a criminal suspect's immigration status as of now. Sometimes critics say federal agents don't even bother with their responsibility.
Joining me tonight, Costa Mesa Mayor Allan Mansoor, who takes the responsibility very seriously, pushing hard for this proposal, which just barely passed the Costa Mesa City Council early this morning. Mr. Mayor, good to have you here.
MAYOR ALLAN MANSOOR, COSTA MESA, CALIFORNIA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Did these new powers for your police department speak to the lack of enforcement on the part of federal officials?
MANSOOR: Well, certainly the ICE or Immigration Customs and Enforcement are over-stressed. I think it's false for people to expect or to think or assume that everyone that goes to jail or prison and is also here illegally, is then subsequently deported.
ICE just does not have all those resources. So what we're doing, we're going to try to do in Costa Mesa, is to enter into an agreement with ICE, into a memorandum of understanding, which will give some of our officers -- are getting details, our special enforcement detail, jail custody officers and our investigators the tools they need to focus on the most violent offenders. DOBBS: The most violent offenders. You're already keenly aware, and there is already a criticism of the vote on the basis that one of the words is it will have a chilling effect in the Latino community. A number of people suggesting that this is an anti-Hispanic decision and vote. How do you react?
MANSOOR: Lou, this is about public safety. We've always had a great working relationship with the public. All members of the public, regardless of their heritage or their race. We have a great chief. He's very professional and well-respected by the community. And none of that will change. The only thing that will change is that the community will be made safer.
DOBBS: It will be made safer. There are -- is almost, frankly to me, Mr. Mayor, remarkable that there would be any sort of controversy surrounding the fact that a law enforcement officer -- whether it be in your city or any city in this country, federal, state or local law enforcement officer, would have to explain why he or she wanted to know a criminal suspect's national origin in a time of which we're engaged in the global war on radical Islamist terrorism. Is that not to you just confounding?
MANSOOR: Well, Lou, I don't see how anyone can object to this. This is the very least that the American public expects from its elected officials and its law enforcement. And the fact is that this will even make the community safer for those here that are here illegally but are otherwise law abiding in this country.
DOBBS: Mayor Mansoor, we thank you for being here again, and again, congratulations on winning your vote. We appreciate you being here.
MANSOOR: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Tomorrow night here on this broadcast, we'll present what is another side of this debate. I'll be joined by Costa Mesa Councilwoman Katrina Foley. She opposes these new powers for the police department of Costa Mesa. She'll be here to tell us why.
Turning now to another strain on this nation's middle class. Our failed trade policy. Our trade deficit with China alone is expected to top a record $200 billion this year. But that's apparently not enough for the Chinese government and the Bush administration. China is aggressively trying to sell even more cheap Chinese products in this country, under their own brands straight to you, the American consumer. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Opening with pomp and ceremony, China brought 100 of its companies to New York City. They came seeking recognition, this Chinese brand name, since the name of the show, but mostly they're here seeking deals. Their presence paid for by the Communist Chinese government, and the Chinese officials were not just promoting business. They were showing an awareness to a highly controversial issue. LIU XINHUA, DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN TRADE, CHINA (through translator): The Chinese government is very much aware of the fact that it's not only the need of the national community to have intellectual property protection. We do so for the sake of Chinese enterprises and also for the sake of the future economic development.
TUCKER: In other words, China now says it's in everybody's interest, ours and theirs to protect intellectual property. And businesses were eager to welcome them.
KATHRYN WYLDE, PARTNERSHIP FOR NEW YORK CITY: There is no more important relationship than the one with China, as a client, as a customer, as a partner, as an investment opportunity, for the U.S. international based corporations.
TUCKER: But some of the products on display would threaten some American products still made here, like floor clocks, still made in Michigan by Howard Miller Clocks, or Steinway pianos, still made in Long Island City, New York, and which cost a great deal more than the products being offered at this show.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: I did ask general director Liu about the future of U.S./China relations and he acknowledged current tensions in quoting the communist chairman now, Lou, who said the road is zigzag ahead, but the future is bright. Lou?
DOBBS: Well, you got to love that kind of quote.
TUCKER: Exactly.
DOBBS: As we move brightly to the future. Basically what China is saying and apparently the U.S. administration is saying is, let's cut out the middle man, produce the goods in China, outsource the jobs to China, sell the products directly here. Who needs Wal-Mart if we can have a Chinese discounter, right?
TUCKER: I think that sums it up exactly, Lou.
DOBBS: Bill Tucker, thank you very much on a cold New York night.
This week, three of our nation's largest corporations announced plans to expand the pace of investment and outsourcing to India and the far east. This news coming at the same time as our nation's once- proud auto giants are gearing up to cut thousands and thousands of jobs and close factories, all of this aimed at the very heart of this country's middle class.
Today, Intel announced an almost $300 million expansion into Malaysia, just days after announcing plans to invest another billion dollars in India. J.P. Morgan Chase said it will hire some 4,500 new employees, all of them in India, to perform back office support work. Sounds a little like outsourcing. And Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates announcing Microsoft will invest more than a million and a half dollars in India over the next four years, a move that would nearly double Microsoft's workforce in India.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GATES, CHAIRMAN, MICROSOFT: Microsoft will be able to build great products, because of the work done by our employees here in India and the work that we give to our partners here in India.
This is the country where the percentage increase in our employment is going to be absolutely the highest going from, I mentioned going from about 4,000 to about 7,000 over the next three to four years. And that's literally hiring as fast as reasonably we can do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Now if this sounds like outsourcing to you, just to be clear, we asked Microsoft, whether any jobs being done now by Americans will be outsourced to India? And this is what they said. Microsoft says, quote, "we will continue to run the core operations of Microsoft I.T. out of Redmond and will look at India and other areas of the world as a means to expand services, reduce costs and forget deeper partnerships for the company in key markets worldwide."
Some in the technology industry are blasting this move by Microsoft. The Washing Alliance of Technology Workers says, quote, "tech firms like Microsoft are laying off and firing people in the Unites States I.T. industry, basically because the labor is so cheap elsewhere. There are people in America that can do these jobs. The only problem is our living wage is higher than their living wage."
J.P. Morgan Chase didn't even try to hide its outsourcing plans. J.P. Morgan Spokesman Michael Golden said in this statement, quote, "we have found high quality, low-cost staff in India and we want to continue investing in the country."
Just ahead here tonight, congressional Republicans could soon break with the White House in the heated argument over torture. General David Grange will be with me. We'll have his thoughts and insight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has been working hard to reshape the debate on Iraq and to introduce new language, in fact, to describe the war and its conduct. Just this week, the secretary declared success in Iraq should not be measured only by the absence of terrorist acts as he put it.
Rumsfeld has also redefined insurgents as, quote, "enemies of the legitimate Iraqi government." All of this from a man who once described the insurgents simply as bitter enders, dead enders and thugs. Joining me now to assess just what in the world is going on in the Pentagon is General David Grange. Dave, good have you here.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.
DOBBS: Let's start with the idea that one should not judge success in Iraq by the absence of terrorist attacks. Do you agree with that statement?
GRANGE: Well, terrorist attacks obviously are part of the equation, there's no doubt about it. So are the destruction of enemy forces of other things, but I think the part he's trying to get across -- at least I hope so -- is that it's other things.
Voter turnout, new businesses opening up on the streets, the ability of people to have freedom, individual rights, a fledgling -- through fledging -- but a developing military and police force -- those things are important as or maybe more important in the long run.
DOBBS: Let's say they're important but the idea of American casualties, our men and women in uniform being killed by roadside bombs, by insurgents, I can't abandon that as a very basic, most important metric in all of this, can you?
GRANGE: Well, it is important, Lou, but take Israel. Israel has terrorist attacks all the time. Yet, it's a very successful country. So I don't think it's the only measure. In this time of conflict in Iraq, it's no doubt about it, but you have to look at all the different contributing factors when you measure success.
DOBBS: Well, if I thought I were measuring success, I might be more willing perhaps to jump in there. What I think we're measuring here right now is a lot of rhetorical flourish and posturing on the part of a defense secretary who's not being straightforward.
For example, refusing to name the enemy as insurgents but rather -- what does he call them -- "enemies against the legitimate Iraqi government." What in the -- what do you think of that?
GRANGE: Well, I think the insurgent word is a good word. It's the one I would continue to use myself. I mean, it describes the people that revolt against ...
DOBBS: Well, you're getting into straightforwardness, general.
GRANGE: Well, it's someone who revolts against civil authority. And that's exactly what's happening here with insurgents. Now, you do have a mix of foreign terrorists coming in as well. But I think insurgents is an appropriate name for who we're fighting.
DOBBS: And rumors that Secretary Rumsfeld, reports even, that he -- which he does not altogether deny but says he's not going retire, suggesting that Senator Joe Lieberman would be his replacement. What do you think of the idea?
GRANGE: Well, I have no idea whether Secretary Rumsfeld is going to retire. But I think that Joe Lieberman is a good man. I think he's balanced. I think he puts the concern of the country ahead of political ambition, and I think that's a wonderful thing, and he'd probably be a great choice.
DOBBS: And what do you think of the idea -- the U.S. Congress is talking about legislation to ban torture, that there should -- I'll tell you, I'm appalled that torture would even be under discussion by this country or any of its representatives.
GRANGE: I agree, it shouldn't be under discussion. I think even though there's laws in place, I think this is a good move. Senator McCain's initiative -- I think we should do it.
And here's a reason. Will Americans die because we do not torture? Yes, they will. But, you have to take the moral high ground on situations with prisoners of war or enemy combatants. You just have to take the moral high ground, so I believe it should be passed.
DOBBS: The moral high ground -- that's where most of us thought this country existed for about 200 years, don't you think?
GRANGE: I agree. And this country has a great reputation on how we handle prisoners. We have our incidents, but we have a fine reputation if you go back through history. And that's the way it needs to be communicated to the rest of the world and communicated again and again and again to make that point that we have the moral high ground when it comes to detainees and prisoners of war.
DOBBS: General David Grange. Thank you, Dave, appreciate it.
GRANGE: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. Do you believe the United States should permit the WTO -- the World Trade Organization -- to direct U.S. immigration policy such as it is? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here in just a few minutes.
Coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM" and my good friend Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. Winter doesn't officially start for another two weeks but right now, winter weather is making life miserable across much of the nation. We've got our eyes on one serious storm right now.
A day after federal air marshals shot and killed a man at Miami's international airport, new questions over whether the man's death could have been prevented.
And chilling words today from the top doctor in the U.S. Senate about the deadly bird flu. We'll get a prognosis from our own doctor, Sanjay Gupta. All those stories, lots more coming up in "THE SITUATION ROOM" right at the top of the hour -- Lou.
DOBBS: Wolf Blitzer, thank you. We're looking forward to it. And just ahead here, is former vice presidential candidate Joe Lieberman going to work for the Bush administration? I'll be talking with the journalist behind the report that is causing such a stir in Washington. Stay with us for that and a great deal more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported, speculation in Washington tonight that Defense Secretary Rumsfeld could be leaving the Bush administration at beginning of the year. Senator Joe Lieberman, who's currently urging patience in Iraq, is seen as a leading candidate to replace him.
"New York Daily News" Washington bureau chief Tom DeFrank has been following the story, reporting it, and joining us tonight from Washington. Good to have you here.
At this point, do you think that all of the talk that you're hearing and reporting from your various sources is valid?
TOM DEFRANK, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well, depends on the definition of -- let's talk definitions. First of all...
DOBBS: By valid, I mean do you really think Rumsfeld is going to retire? He says he isn't.
DEFRANK: Well, he doesn't get to decide that of course, Lou. The president gets to decide the answer to that. The story that Ken Bazinet, my colleague and I, did said that White House sources are telling associates, and I don't think -- and that doesn't mean mail room clerks -- they're telling associates that they expect Rumsfeld to be out after the 1st of the year, after the December 15 elections, and after a new government is put together and organized in Iraq. And that's what White House sources say is their expectation.
And that sounds right to me. Secretary Rumsfeld has been in and out of controversy for the last five years. Some say he wanted to go a year ago, but he was under attack because of Abu Ghraib and other things. And the president...
DOBBS: Well, he offered to resign twice because of Abu Ghraib. The president declined both times.
DEFRANK: President Bush is a very loyal guy, especially to people who've carried a lot of water for him. He does not have much of a history of sending people back out to retirement when they're under great political criticism.
DOBBS: You think Lieberman would make a good defense secretary, just in your view?
DEFRANK: Well, he's more of a bipartisan force there. He's not a partisan gunslinger, as some have said, but my gut tells me he's probably not going to be the next secretary of defense. But stay tuned.
DOBBS: Tom, the president is obviously missing some of his older, close advisers at this very tough challenging time for his White House. Don Evans, his commerce secretary, back in Texas. Any suggestion that he might be coming back into the fold to be there for the president?
DEFRANK: Don Evans' friends are saying there's no way that that's going to happen. He is one of the president's closest friends, as you've said. He would be a friendly face and a comforting figure around the president, but as I said, Don's friends are saying that that's likely not going to happen.
DOBBS: And the president's five-point bounce, as we saw in today's poll, the CBS-"New York Times" poll, that's pretty impressive off even these very low numbers.
DEFRANK: Well, except -- that's exactly right. This is a good number, and White House aides are hoping that that is the beginning of the end of the bottoming -- of the plunge, I should say. But that five-point jump -- and I agree it's impressive -- had to do basically with the economy. His numbers did not improve over Iraq, and that's something that is a continuing drag for him politically.
DOBBS: OK. Tom DeFrank, we thank you very much. The bureau chief for "The New York Daily News" in Washington.
And taking a look now at some of your thoughts here on this broadcast. On illegal aliens and non-citizens influencing the makeup, the structure, in point of fact, of our government.
Sue Anderson in Raymore, Missouri said: "Lou, has our country lost its mind? Since when do non-citizens have the right the vote?"
Charles Davis in Green Valley, Arizona, said in response to our poll question about non-citizens voting, he says simply: "You've got to be kidding."
Charles, I wish we were.
John in Houston, Texas, said: "United States of America or United States of Mexico? Our elected officials need to decide which they want." John, I think it's getting to be very clear just what they want.
And Tom in California -- "Lou, I think it's time Wal*Mart painted the star between Wal and Mart red, in honor of the Chinese military buildup they're hell-bent to support."
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here, receives a copy of my book "Exporting America." And if you want to receive our daily e-mail, sign up on our Web site.
Still ahead, our nightly tribute to our troops. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: Overwhelming, thousands of you voting, and we have an overwhelming response tonight; 98 percent of you saying the United States should not allow the World Trade Organization to direct our immigration policy. And we'll find out whether that will be the decision of our government very shortly.
Finally tonight, our tribute to our troops. Every night on this broadcast, we share thoughts from a few of the men and women who serve this nation far from home this holiday season.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SPC. DEVIN BATTENBERG: This is Specialist Battenberg from Al Asad air base in Iraq. I'd like to say hi to my family, mom and dad and Jenny, and all my friends from Mason (ph) and Jernan (ph), Pennsylvania. Thank you for your support.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My name is Specialist Davis (ph). I'm stationed here in Kaji (ph), Iraq. I would like to send a merry Christmas to my family (INAUDIBLE) Virginia. Nicole, my mother Cathy (ph), niece and nephew, grandma, brother, I love you all. And I'll be home soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Specialist Daniel Williams (ph) from Mountfield (ph), West Virginia. I'm with the 463rd Engineer Battalion out of Wheeling, West Virginia. I'd like to say hi to my mom, my sister, my brother, sister-in-law, all my family back home. Tell you I miss you, love you. I'll see you soon. Take care.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Specialist Antesana (ph), live from Tikrit, Iraq. I want to wish a merry Christmas to my wife, Martha, and my son Sebastian in Falls Church, Virginia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And a merry Christmas to them and all of their colleagues in uniform, and our thanks.
And we thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow when our guests will include former presidential adviser David Gergen. And we'll have the other side of the debate that took place in Costa Mesa, California, giving Costa Mesa police the authority to ask criminal suspects their national origin. We'll be talking with a councilwoman who voted against that new power for the police.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer begins now -- Wolf.
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