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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Agrees With McCain to Ban Torture; Interview With Jerry Jasinowski
Aired December 15, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight President Bush has agreed to Senator John McCain's proposal to ban torture by U.S. interrogators. The chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter is furious that that deal doesn't do enough to protect our troops. He'll be here to discuss the proposed torture ban and attacks on legislation that would secure our national borders.
Also tonight, the first full House debate on our immigration and border security crisis, the first debate in nearly a decade, if you can believe. That we'll have our own debate with two leading congressmen with two very different perspectives on this major national security issue.
And why the National Association of Manufacturers is criticizing me and my defense of middle-class American workers. NAM's Jerry Jasinowski will be here for an extremely frank exchange of views.
We begin tonight by a major reversal by the White House on the issue of whether Americans can torture terror suspects in U.S. custody. After months of resistance, President Bush today accepted Senator John McCain's proposal for a law to ban torture, and inhumane treatment. But the bill immediately ran into problems in the House. Ed Henry is on Capitol Hill and has the latest for us -- Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this deal, which has been in the works for months hit yet another stumbling block, as you mentioned, but John McCain is confident by the end of the night, they'll have it all worked out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice over): A major reversal for President Bush that hands his one-time nemesis, John McCain, a big political victory.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R-AZ): We've sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists. We have no brief for them, but what we are is a nation that upholds values and standards of behavior and treatment of all people, no matter highway evil or bad they are.
HENRY: After months of opposition, the president accepted McCain's ban on the use of cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of detainees in the war on terror. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've been happy to work with him, to achieve a common objective, and that is to make it clear to the world that this government does not torture, and that we adhere to the International Convention of Torture, whether it be here at home or abroad.
HENRY: This was a big turnabout for the president and a stinging defeat for Vice President Cheney. They had been arguing the administration need wide latitude to wage the war on terror. The reverse in course comes after international pressure. And is a personal triumph for McCain, who spent five years as a prisoner during the Vietnam war.
SEN. JOHN WARNER, (R-VA) CHMN, ARMED SERVICES CMTE: I want to compliment you, Senator. You have stayed the course of profile and courage from day one on this important piece of legislation.
HENRY: But shortly after the White House celebration a powerful Republican congressman threatened to block the deal, saying he's worried the ban will hamper U.S. intelligence efforts.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER, (R), CHMN., ARMED SERVICES CMTE: Our position is until we have assurance from the White House that the provisions, which we have been working on provides the same high level of effective intelligence gathering capability, that we presently have, I'm not going to sign that deal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Senators McCain and Warner both say they are confident the assurances will come from the White House tonight, perhaps in the form of a letter from the White House to Duncan Hunter. In either case, though, Senator McCain notes his language banning the use of torture is included in a separate defense spending bill. He's confident that measure will go through if this does not, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Ed Henry from Capitol Hill.
The president's decision to reverse course and accept a law banning torture appears to be at first glance, to be a rare retreat by the White House. In reality, it's not the first time White House used the tactic when facing heavy political pressure to change direction. Dana Bash reports from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It was vintage Bush, in the Oval Office, with Senator John McCain claiming victory.
BUSH: We've been happy to work with him, to achieve a common objective, and that is to make it clear to the world that this government does not torture.
BASH: Smiles and compromise after months of resisting and threatening to veto McCain's rules for treating detainees in the war on terror. It has become a Bush trademark, oppose proposals he views as congressional meddling, resist, but ultimately if left no choice politically, compromise and act as if it was his plan all along.
After September 11th, the president wanted Homeland Security run from the White House. Senator Joseph Lieberman and others demanded a new Cabinet level agency. The president said no, resisted for months, and counted the votes and not only gave in, but began touting the new department of Homeland Security as one of his proudest accomplishments.
BUSH: Combining under one roof, with a clear chain command, many agencies responsible for protecting our nation.
BASH: The 9/11 Commission was another example. Mr. Bush wanted a congressional review that would have been largely out of public eye.
BUSH: It is best for the ongoing war against terror that the investigation be done in the intelligence committee.
BASH: But 9/11 victims joined congressional lobbying, and six months later, the president signed on.
The president wanted to keep some records from the commission and then balked at calls for then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice to testify in public. Again, pressure, then compromise, and embrace it on your own as Mr. Bush does now when speak of intelligence reforms borne out of 9/11 Commission's work.
BUSH: I'm also responsible for fixing what went wrong by reforming our intelligence capabilities, and we're doing just that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: This latest compromise was forced not only by the persistence of Senator McCain with most of Congress behind him, but also the toll of already battered U.S. image is taking around the world because of allegation of torture and inhumane treatment, especially places like at Abu Ghraib, and other prisons, Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash from the White House.
As we reported Congressman Duncan Hunter is furious that this deal is not go far enough to protect U.S. troops coming up in the broadcast, Congressman Hunter joins us.
And turning now to the historic elections in Iraq. Tonight officials have begun counting votes after the much larger-than- expected turnout, and the only free elections in the Arab world. Millions of Iraqis defied the terrorists and went to polling stations, nearly half a million American, Iraqi and coalition troops were there to protect voters. Aneesh Raman is live in Baghdad and has the latest for us -- Aneesh.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN INT'L. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, good everything, with Iraq under a virtual lockdown, a security success today and the chance, perhaps, that U.S. troops could be heading home sooner rather than later.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN (voice over): In millions Iraqis went to the polls from the Shia south to the Kurdish north, this was no symbolic exercise in democracy. It was a people putting their collective faith in a four year government, expecting results soon on security, basic services and political compromise.
ZALMAY KHALILZAD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: It is a chance to go in the right direction with everyone participating. We need to build on that, we can't assume this is it.
RAMAN: An essential part of that chance is the Sunni voice. They too, poured out in large numbers. Baghdad neighborhoods, in the volatile west, and for the most part the Sunni dominated insurgency kept quiet, only a few small attacks, but say Sunni politicians, that could quickly change.
SALAH AL-MUTLAD, LEADING SUNNI POLITICIAN: The insurgents are watching now, watching the process of the election, watching the result. But the free sectarian part of political process is going to govern the country again, I think it will worsen the situation and the insurgency will go up.
RAMAN: A chance for peace as much as a chance for increased violence. Thursday's vote was a critical first step; the end of the transitional period, the start of a permanent democracy. But for Iraqi leaders, there are huge issues unresolved, huge tasks still at hand.
And for U.S. troops, the best chance of getting out lies in the incoming government's ability to take control of this country and deliver to a people desperate for hope.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN: And Lou, the first task for Iraq's newly elected leaders will be forming a coalition government, that could take weeks, if not a month or two, Lou? Sorry.
DOBBS: Aneesh, thank you.
Reports that Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq Abu Musab al Zarqawi was in Iraqi custody last year and then they let him go by mistake, what can you tell us about it?
RAMAN: Yes, Lou, Hussein Kamal (ph), Iraq's deputy interior minister told CNN today they had Zarqawi in custody at some point last year, that they then let him go because they did not know he was Zarqawi. They didn't give us any more details than that. We're trying to find out when this happened last year? How this happened? A U.S. official did say that while he can't confirm the report it is, it is, quote, "plausible", Lou?
DOBBS: Aneesh Raman, thank you very much, from Baghdad. President Bush today met with Iraqi expatriates at the White House and congratulated Iraqi citizens around the world for today's free elections. President Bush said Iraqis showed courage in refusing to be deterred by terrorists. President Bush also assured the Iraqi people the United States will not leave Iraq until, as he put it, the job is done.
Just moment ago, we told you of the White House agreeing to Senator McCain's amendment for uniform standards that ban torture, which brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. In your judgment, is there any reason, national security or otherwise, that the United States should ever engage in torture? Cast your vote at Loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming right up, Congress finally considers tough new laws to tackle illegal immigration crises and our broken borders. We'll have the special report.
And Mexico's President Vicente Fox tries to interfere in U.S. internal affairs, again. We'll tell you what he said this time and why.
And the president of a leading manufacturer's group is trying to suggest that it offends the middle class American workers, doesn't make economic sense. I'll talk with the head of the NAM's research arm here next. We'll find out what's wrong with defending middle class American workers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: At this hour, the House of Representatives is debating legislation that would finally put in place tough enforcement measures against illegal aliens. This is the first major piece of broken borders legislation to come up for House debate in almost a decade. And the national business lobby is putting up a fierce fight to weaken this bill significantly. Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The House bill under consideration requires employers to use Social Security records to make sure workers are legal. It stiffens penalties for those caught reentering the country illegally and steps up punishment for alien smuggling.
REP. JIM SENSENBRENNER (R-WI): This legislation will reestablish respect for our laws by holding violators accountable.
SYLVESTER: Many Democrats have lined up in opposition, but the bill's fate hinges on internal wrangling with the Republican Party. Debates stalled for several hours when party members could not get on the same page. On one hand, there's the pro-business Republicans who oppose employment verification and support a guest worker program.
REP. FRED UPTON, (R-MI): In this legislation there are no provisions, none, that will help my growers keep a viable workforce in order to pick their crop.
SYLVESTER: There's strict anti-illegal immigration Republicans who believe this bill does not go far enough. They're pushing for a fence to be built along the southern border, want to empower local police officers to enforce federal immigration laws and deny automatic citizenship to children born to illegal aliens, who are known as anchor babies.
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH, (R-AZ): Illegal immigration threatens our sovereignty, our security, reverence for the rule of law. It discriminates against American workers.
SYLVESTER: The House Immigration Caucus wants the toughest bill possible because of fears similar legislation in the Senate will be watered down, Representative Tom Tancredo worries the House bill will be a mail order bride for the Senate.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R-CO): House passes the enforcement part, Senate passes the guest worker part, they marry up in a conference committee, comes back as the guest worker, tiny bit of enforcement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Tom Tancredo and the House Immigration Caucus so far have been able to beat back pro-business forces pushing for the guest worker program. But the debate on the bill, which started late this afternoon, will continue through the evening, and will spill over to tomorrow. Lou?
DOBBS: As you reported, Lisa, this is critically important legislation. It is the essential to national security and the beginnings of reform for our immigration policies. But Congressman Tancredo makes an excellent point.
It is fairly clear, that it is obvious to the point of transparency that the Senate leadership and the White House are counting on the Senate to water this down, or to reject it altogether. Is there any concern within the Senate that they're about to send a lot of Republican congressmen to defeat in the midterm elections if they do so?
SYLVESTER: Indeed, that is a major concern. You bring up a very good point, next year is an election year. So to sneak this into the Senate, can you bet there will be a number of people watching them to make sure that does not happen, Lou.
DOBBS: Just about two-thirds of the American public, in fact, the voting American public. Lisa Sylvester, thank you.
The business lobby and the Bush administration are insisting that temporary guest workers are critical to solving the illegal alien crisis, but history shows that something called temporary guest workers do nothing to ease our nation's border emergency. Those guest workers, those temporary workers, are anything but temporary. And they will only make our illegal alien crisis even worse. Christine Romans has the report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The president, the business lobby, liberal groups and immigration lawyers want to tackle illegal immigration by starting a vast guest worker program. Philip Martin is an expert on guest worker programs.
PHILIP MARTIN, UC DAVIS: History has shown that there's nothing more permanent than temporary workers.
ROMANS: Martin says there is no guarantee that 11 million people will come out of shadows, get fingerprinted and sign up as guest workers, knowing they'd have to leave in three years as current proposals require. And companies won't want to recruit new workers when the guest workers are required to return to their home country.
MARTIN: You have to be very careful about a concept that has failed in many places, in many time periods. There has to be something flawed about a concept that involves moving people over borders for temporary periods.
ROMANS: The U.S. began bringing in temporary workers after World War I and II. In 1981 there were 44,000 temporary workers admitted. By 1996 that swelled to almost a quarter of a million, and today there are hundreds of thousands of authorized nonimmigrant, or temporary, workers in this country and millions more illegal workers. Critics of current immigration policies say guest workers lead to more illegal immigration.
ROY BECK, NUMBERS USA: It was the guest worker -- guest ag worker program in the '40s and '50s that laid the foundation for the illegal immigration we have today.
ROMANS: History shows it is inevitable many stay in the country. They bring their families, use schools, need health care. At the same time, temporary worker programs are labor subsidies for industry, holding back national wages and productivity.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: And history is also very clear about giving those guest workers a path to legalization. In 1988, 2.8 million illegal aliens received U.S. legal status through amnesty, yet Professor Martins says California's farm labor market, today, is overwhelmingly illegal. And he says agricultural economics have been distorted by moving in cheap subsidized labor.
He points out that they see Mexican farmers at UC Davis, who are coming in looking for labor-saving equipment because in Mexico, they don't have ample source of labor.
DOBBS: Well, and 30 years ago, we were supposed to be on our way to mechanized harvesting in this country for the broadest array of crops. Obviously that hasn't happened so long as cheap illegal labor can be exploited.
Thank you very much, Christine Romans.
Still ahead, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, livid tonight at the White House torture agreement doesn't go far enough to protect American troops. Congressman Duncan Hunter is our guest here.
LA's cash is king economy, a shadow workforce, illegal aliens, and that shadow workforce is destroying middle class jobs, and not paying taxes. That special report is coming up.
And Mexico's president, Vicente Fox never makes a lot of sense when it comes to immigration, he topped himself this time. He's trying to stop the United States from putting forward border security. His latest outrages are coming up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, a new front in the war on our middle class; a massive underground economy dragging down wages for millions of working Americans and cheating American taxpayers. Most of this underground economy is made up of, you guessed it, illegal aliens being paid substandard wages and off the books. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): They're gardeners and nannies, construction, restaurants and garment workers, they are the jobs most likely to pay in cash, under the table. A new study by the Milken Institute found that at least 15 percent of all jobs in Los Angeles County are part of this informal or undocumented economy.
More than half of those jobs are filled by illegal aliens. The result, the loss of more than $2 billion a year in Social Security, Medicare, worker's compensation and other taxes in Los Angeles alone.
ROSS DEVOL, MILKEN INSTITUTE: They're not contributing to the tax base, it cause other businesses to pay taxes higher than they otherwise would, and so the rest of us are paying for a lot of the services. One of the mechanisms to get this under control is better enforcement of our immigration policies.
WIAN: The study found the underground jobs drive down wages for above board workers by about 10 percent. Illegal aliens aren't the only reason the undocumented economy is growing. Other factors include the red tape involved in running a legitimate business.
JACK KYESER, L.A. ECONOMIC DEVELOPEMTN CORP.: What makes sense when talking to business is the government views them as the bad guy. If you approached it in a different way, literally had a sign over your desk, hello, businessman, we're here to help you. I think you would probably see some of this underground economy come in from the cold.
WIAN: But also needed is better enforcement of business tax laws. If there's no solution, the Milken study predicts the economy will spiral down and the social safety net will become even more precarious.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: While the study only focused on Los Angeles, its implications for the rest of the nation are clear. As long as illegal immigration grows unchecked and workers and employers operate under the table, honest taxpayers will continue to pay the bill, Lou?
DOBBS: That's really the issue here, honest taxpayers paying the bill. Illegal employers, hiring illegal aliens, getting the economic benefit, not benefiting the economy but benefiting those employers. While the taxpayer provides for social services, medical services and education and incarceration, along with another host of bills as a result of overcrowded schools.
It's extraordinary. Casey Wian, thank you very much reporting from Los Angeles.
WIAN: You got it.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, Fox versus the United States, Mexican President Vicente Fox makes absolutely disgraceful comments about a plan that could save lives.
And then, Jerry Jasinowski, his parent organization, the National Association of Manufacturers, continues to blast this humble program and our defense of the American middle class worker. Jerry Jasinowski is our guest, we'll be debating, discussing and see if we can reach agreement on anything.
Please stay with us. And more on this historic House debate, underway now, over our illegal alien crises and the White House agreement on torture. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee is our guest here next, joining us live from Capitol Hill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Outrageous new comments tonight from Mexico's President Vicente Fox. President Fox is blasting a plan to build a 2,000 mile fence along the U.S./Mexico border. President Fox says that would violate the rights of illegal aliens. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's 2,000 miles long, the border between the United States and Mexico. It runs across deserts, over mountains, through rivers. Every year an estimated 3 million people cross it illegally. Mexico's President Vicente Fox likes it like that.
Fox on Wednesday was indignant at idea that a fence is need to keep illegal aliens from entering the United States calling it, quote, "disgraceful and shameful". Instead, he again called for the easing of U.S. immigration laws. REP. J.D. HAYWORTH, (R-AZ): I'll tell you what's disgraceful. It's disgraceful when the president of Mexico and the government Mexico actively advocates Mexican citizens invading the United States as illegal aliens.
TUCKER: Mexico is plagued with a high crime rate. The U.S. State Department warns tourists traveling to Mexico to be cautious. And 40 percent of the population lives in poverty. Little wonder that rough estimates suggest that 10 percent of the population of Mexico is illegally entered the United States.
COLIN HANNA, WENEEDAFENCE.COM: The principal, driving factor is that there's widespread poverty and lack of opportunity in Mexico and large numbers of Mexicans believe that their best opportunity lies in coming to this country under whatever circumstances.
TUCKER: Fox is exporting his poverty, and importing his economy. Mexicans living in the United States remit almost 20 billion back to Mexico, every year. That is more than Mexico realizes from any part of its economy, including the oil sector.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: And yet Fox shows no shame his best economic policy is advocating the illegal immigration of his population so that the Mexican economy can rest on their backs, Lou?
DOBBS: The outrageous remarks of President Fox should first of all should be repudiated immediately by the White House. And he should be held accountable. We won't see that happen in all likelihood.
But the fact is the only thing shameful and disgraceful here is that Mexico tolerates a president who is presiding over a government that is corrupt across its provinces, it's people and poverty. It is extraordinary that we tolerate this kind of behavior. It's extraordinary that he has the arrogance and the presumption to speak to this issue at all when he has been an absolute incompetent leader of a shamefully ineffective government. Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.
More now on the intense debate in Congress tonight over legislation that would finally secure our nation's borders. I'm joined now by two Congressmen who have quite opposing views on the issue. Homeland Security Committee Chairman Peter King in New York, co-author of the bill with Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner. Congressman King says securing our borders is a critical first step to reforming our immigration policy.
But Congressman Howard Berman of California says this bill doesn't go far enough. He says, in fact, it will do little if anything to solve our illegal alien crisis. Both gentlemen join us tonight from Washington.
Let me start with you, if I may Congressman Berman. We have an estimated 20 million illegal aliens now living in this country, according to the most recent study by Bear Stearns, 3 million entered last year illegally. Why would on earth wouldn't you favor this bill?
REP. HOWARD BERMAN, (D) CALIFORNIA: Because this bill, and I have to say, the Republican leadership that's pushing this bill, is doing a con job on the American people and on you, Lou, in making you think that this bill, in and of itself, will ever become law.
There is only two eventual outcomes from this bill. It will either be turned into a bill that also provides a guest worker and adjustment program for the 10 million, 15 million, however many illegal immigrants now in this country as well as future guest workers, or it will die in a conference committee never to be seen again because -- and let me just explain why.
DOBBS: We're limited on time, Congressman. I do need Congressman King to speak as well.
And let me respond to the con job that persuades me this will be passed. Let me assure you Congressman Berman, I'm not be conned, I'm as skeptical as you that the Republican leadership in the House and the Senate and this White House have the guts to move forward with a sense of responsibility for Americans who need the protection of this legislation. So please, believe me, I'm not be conned at all, neither is the audience of this broadcast. But we are vitally interested to see if courage can manifest itself in the United States Congress and the White House.
To that end, Congressman King, how do you respond to Congressman Berman?
REP. PETER KING, (R) NEW YORK: I'm not conning you or Howard Berman. I'm very sincere about this bill. This is a very, very important step. This will go a long way toward securing our borders.
Before we can address the overall immigration problem, we have to first show and convince the American people that we can control our borders. We're going to be for the first time using military technology on the borders. We are calling for construction or whatever is necessary along the southern border to close off the border, whether it's walls, fences, infrastructure, lasers, technology, border patrol.
In addition to that, we're going end the policy of catch and release. Where in the past you would catch an illegal immigrant, give them an appearance ticket and tell them to come back. Now they will be detained and there will be expedited removal, which means they are sent back to the country from which they came.
DOBBS: Congressman Berman, what's wrong with that? And let's set aside the issue of whether or not we're getting conned here. On the face of it, it looks like this is a sensible, rational approach, because without border security first, we are neither protected from terrorists nor are we in a position to enforce any kind of immigration reform.
BERMAN: Lou, you and I both know that the failure of the 1986 bill was with the employer sanctions were a farce, a total farce. Without an employer verification system where an employer has to check the legal status of anybody coming to work for them or working for them, you don't deal with the problem. The Republicans aren't just pushing a border enforcement bill, they're pushing an employer verification bill.
DOBBS: What's wrong with that?
BERMAN: There's nothing wrong with that, except do you believe that at the end of the day, the National Association of Manufacturers, the Chamber of Commerce, the growers of this country are going to allow their -- a huge portion their workforce to be denied to them? And that the Republican party is going to send...
DOBBS: You know Congressman Berman, I really don't care what the NAM, the Chamber of Commerce or anyone else in this country -- let me answer you. I don't care what their opinion is, they made it clear. They're trying to sabotage this bill right now because they want to benefit from illegal labor which puts a burden on this entire country. It may be a boon to individual businesses. But it's about time you all in Congress got the idea that you're representing middle class American workers, every American worker, every American and not the Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers, the business roundtable and the business council.
BERMAN: Lou, I'm telling you the Republican party will not send a bill that has that provision to the president of the United States.
DOBBS: Congressman King, this is squarely you on and your party.
KING: And this is in the bill. We are the ones who put it in the bill. We are taking the heat from the big business of this country. And we're standing up to them. We're saying no to big business and yes to the middle-class families and hard working Americans.
BERMAN: It's a one house bill.
DOBBS: Congressman King, I want to give you the last word. And here's the question, do you sincerely, honestly, and so help you God believe, that the Republican leadership in Congress, the House, the Senate and the White House is committed to true border security and solving our illegal alien crisis, our immigration reform needs?
KING: I can speak for myself, I believe the House leadership and also the president in saying yes. As for the Senate, I hope they're on board. And hope they will be. I will do what I can to put pressure on them. I will be part of the conference committee doing all I can. I will not approve any bill which is not real, meaningful reform including tough, tough border sanctions.
DOBBS: And Congressman Berman, with somewhat different views would you support this legislation that is in the interest of the nation?
BERMAN: I support this legislation, if it was truly comprehensive and had a system for dealing with the reality of...
DOBBS: Remember we swore we are going to talk straight here.
BERMAN: And I'm talking straight. If you don't, with the 11 million people or 15 million people or 20 million people who are now in this country, and Peter King in his heart of hearts knows we're going have to deal with that.
DOBBS: Absolutely. But do you agree fundamentally, that we have to have border security before we do anything?
BERMAN: I believe we have to have border security and everything else together now.
DOBBS: Congressman, I appreciate it. Congressman Berman, Congressman King, we thank you both for being here.
KING: Lou, thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead, the chairman of the House Armed Service Committee is furious with today's torture agreement which he does not believe goes far enough to protect American troops. Congressman Duncan Hunter, the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee joins me here next.
And then the Iraqis go to the polls in a historic election, far greater turnout than expected. How this vote could determine when American troops come home. General David Grange joins me next.
And three million Americans have lost their jobs in manufacturing over the past five years. But a major manufacturing group says it can't find enough skilled workers or manufacturers? How is that possible? I'll be asking Jerry Jasinowski, president of the Manufacturer's Institute here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today accepted Senator John McCain's proposal to ban torturing terrorist suspects in U.S. custody, but that deal immediately ran into opposition from a powerful congressman, the chairman of the House Armed Service Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, who joins us now from Capitol Hill.
Congressman Hunter, thanks for being here. What are your reservations?
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Well, you know, we put this thing together, Lou, John McCain and the Senate came with this ban on inhumane treatment. We already ban torture. And what we came with in the House was protection of our military personnel, meaning the SEALs, the Special Forces, people that actually interrogate folks, and our CIA agents. And we put in protections for them from civil and criminal suits, and we also put in provisions for the U.S. to supply them lawyers when they were sued.
Now, I would have liked to have gone further on the protection side. We pushed back. We got as much as we could. It's pretty good, but the last thing that I gave to the White House was this request: Unless you can give us the assurance that our intelligence is going to operate at the same level of effectiveness after we put this detainee package in as it presently does, I'm not signing this bill.
We just got a package back from Mr. Negroponte, our head of the director of national intelligence. I don't know if it goes far enough. We're going to look at it. But unless we have that certification from the White House -- when you have a shooting war and you need intelligence, this is not the time to degrade it. It's a good package, we had input into it, and we protected soldiers. That was our piece, but we need that assurance now.
DOBBS: There are those listening, Mr. Chairman, who are saying if the United States -- if Americans are not torturing, why do they need this protection?
HUNTER: Well, you know, that's one of the terrible things about this whole debate, Lou. Section 18, USC 2340 says under torture, nobody in the U.S., CIA agent, uniformed person can torture, and if you torture somebody, the United States can put you to death if the person dies. And if they don't die, they can give you 20 years in prison. So we already had an anti-torture law on the book.
This is degrading treatment, inhumane treatment, and that is subject to lots of variations. And that's why I wanted to make sure...
DOBBS: And interpretations.
HUNTER: I want to make sure that they lock this down, that this is fine with our agency people right down through the grassroots.
DOBBS: And do you believe that the White House is in a mood to listen on this, that Senator McCain is?
HUNTER: Well, if we can't have that assurance, then for my small piece of this package, and we're in the defense conference, I can't -- I can't sign for something that isn't -- that doesn't protect our people. So let's -- I'm going to take a look at this letter that Mr. Negroponte sent. We'll see what happens.
DOBBS: OK, Congressman, we've got just a few seconds. Also, your proposal to build a fence along the southern border. President Vicente Fox, who for all practical purposes, is in charge of U.S. immigration policy right now, says it's disgraceful and shameful. Your reaction.
HUNTER: Let me tell you, Lou, 400 people died in the Arizona desert, people coming across to find work, because Vicente Fox can't produce jobs. Those people died of heat dehydration last year. The first thing we build, this first segment from Calexico, California, to Douglas, Arizona, fences that area and has it heavily fenced before the next hot season to protect those people. He should care about them. DOBBS: Congressman Berman, Democrat of California, whom you know, of course and Congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado both have said that this is a baked deal, that in point of fact, if something does happen in the House, seriously on border security, seriously on immigration reform that the Senate will kill it, and try to look like they tried. Do you think that's the case? And secondly, if it is the case, do you think that American voters are so stupid that they would buy that?
HUNTER: Lou, I don't think that's the case. I build fences, and when the Republicans took power in '94, I put in the triple fence, and the Republican Congress passed that under Henry Hyde's leadership on the Judiciary Committee. Our leaders passed it. They passed it in the Senate. We mandated the construction of the fence, and it knocked off border -- illegal border traffic and drug smuggling and deaths. We can take that San Diego fence, which is built, and we can extend it to other places. We'll do it.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Service Committee.
A reminder to vote in our poll tonight. Is there any reason in your judgment, national security or otherwise, that the United States should ever engage in torture? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here in just a moment.
Coming right up, Jerry Jasinowski, the president of the Manufacturing Institute is my guest. We'll have a bit of a debate, I'm sure, on this nation's manufacturing cries, and the plight of middle class American workers.
Also ,today's historic vote in Iraq, General David Grange joins me. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM" and Wolf Blitzer. Wolf, tell us what you're working on?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. We are working on lots of stories, including Iraq's most wanted terror suspect. Was he mistakenly released from custody? We're following this developing story.
Plus, Rush Limbaugh's drug case, is politics to blame for his legal troubles? We'll have an interview you'll see only here on CNN.
And hail Mary, a baby tossed from a window and saved. We'll talk to the mom and the hero, all that coming up right at the top of the hour. Lou, in the meantime, back to you.
DOBBS: Good stuff, Wolf, thank you.
The National Association of Manufacturers purports to represent American manufacturers of all sizes, and the organization supports free trade at any cost, and the organization has most recently supported CAFTA.
I disagree with them on both counts. In addition to my opposition to CAFTA, I'm also deeply concerned about the nation's massive trade imbalances, the erosion of our nation's manufacturing base, the plight of American middle class manufacturing workers.
That means that the NAM and I often don't get along. The organization has even set up a Web site critical of me, this broadcast, and it often gets personal. But I've known Jerry Jasinowski for just about two decades. He's the president of the NAM research arm, the Manufacturing Institute. He's here to talk about among other things, why his organization says manufacturing jobs in the country are going unfilled because our workers are unskilled.
We'll probably have a debate, Jerry, a positive dialogue, and I hope that we don't find ourselves in complete disagreement, but it's good to have you here. Jerry Jasinowski.
JERRY JASINOWSKI, PRESIDENT, MANUFACTURING INSTITUTE: Thank you so much, Lou. And let me just say at the very beginning that I agree with an awful lot of what you have to say with respect to manufacturing. Clearly, issues like unfair trade, the whole business about not having adequate emphasis on manufacturing in this country, and understanding its base, and I think that defending the middle class worker is very important.
And I think that the skill study, in part, was a call to arms, that we really have to invest more in our worker, because the competitive world is changing, and we're going to compete on innovation and ideas.
So I'm delighted to be here, and I think we have more in common than some people may think.
DOBBS: Well, good to have you here, and I think I'll take that as an olive branch, and I appreciate it, Jerry.
I hope we're all concerned about the same things, the national interest, the security of our workforce, the education, the training, the opportunity, because it's the foundation of the country that gives us a strong, resilient middle class. But when the report comes out that the reason we're not manufacturing more is because we don't have enough skilled workers. It sort of strikes me in the face, because over the course of the last five years, we've lost three million manufacturing jobs. We're watching Ford, we're watching General Motors, Delphi, company after company shut down manufacturing jobs in this country. We watched 25 percent of the tool and dye jobs in the country disappear. It just doesn't make sense to me.
JASINOWSKI: Well, I can understand why you say. I think, you know, how is it explainable that you can lose several million jobs and then have skill shortages.
The reality of it, Lou, is that we've got a dramatic change in manufacturing skill requirements. The survey you're talking about had 75 percent of the manufacturers saying a high performance workforce was the most important means of competing going forward. And that's a different kind of manufacturing jobs. It's high skilled. It's statistical. It's high technology. And it is not the job of the past.
Secondly, we've got a recovery under way. And manufacturing is now hiring again. And manufacturing is in really pretty good shape. It's growing faster than the economy as a whole. So people are starting to hire. Now, they're not going to hire all those jobs back, but they are hiring.
DOBBS: The number of job cuts in technology, Jerry, as you know through the first quarter of this year -- first three quarters, those job cuts are up 20 percent. We've watched manufacturing wages hold at $8.$50 an hour on the national basis in real terms. They're just about where they were 30 years ago.
If there's a shortage of skilled workers, why in the world aren't the manufacturers in all industries paying higher wages? Because in economics, as you and I both know, if there's demand, prices are going to rise, all other things being equal.
JASINOWSKI: I think it's important to invest more in manufacturing workers with respect to skills and training, but I think those -- that $8 figure you used just doesn't represent manufacturing as we know it today, Lou. That's 25-years-old. And we don't even have the number of hourly workers we used to have.
If you look at the total manufacturing workforce today, the average compensation is about $50,000. If you add benefits, it's over $60,000. That's 25 percent higher than what we've got in the rest of the economy. The problem is that manufacturers and others are not investing enough in skills training. And this report argued that manufacturers ought to invest more. So we're not blaming workers. If anything, we're seeing manufacturers ought to put their arm to the wheel a little better.
DOBBS: Well, this is all well and good. And let's talk about the basic economics. As you know, I'm critical of the business practice, of outsourcing good-paying American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets and the effect it has. I'm critical of running up a $4 trillion external trade debt because our business interests, large business interest, primarily U.S. multinationals, think it's just fine if this country runs a trade deficit that at the current rate within three years will amount to about 10 percent of our entire GDP.
At some point, rationality has to set in even for special interests, doesn't it?
JASINOWSKI: Well, I don't want to make you feel too good. But, you know, I share your concerns about the trade deficit. I mean, we can't afford a trade deficit at this level. That's why I've argued that we ought to do more to get exchange rates so that they properly reflect competitive fundamentals, particularly the Chinese exchange rate.
So I share your concern there. I think that, though, if we're worried about the trade deficit, the key to that is innovation and ideas and investing more in the skills and education. We are behind, Lou, in this education and skills area. And I just want to say that this is an approaching crisis at all levels, and we ought not to minimize it.
DOBBS: Jerry Jasinowski, you have shocked me by the level of agreement. Better be careful, though, the NAM -- they might create one of those Jasinowski watch sites like they've got on Lou Dobbs. You got to be careful.
JASINOWSKI: Well, look I'm really delighted that we could talk. I look forward to coming back and talking to you about this skill issue, and any other issue, anything that you've got on your mind at all, Lou, I and the institute and manufacturers would be delighted to talk about.
DOBBS: Well, come on back. It's a delight to talk with you. And doggone it this sounds rapprochement to me. I appreciate it. Thank you. You're a class guy.
JASINOWSKI: Thanks.
DOBBS: Coming up next, another class guys, General David Grange. And we'll have the results of our poll as well. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today's historic elections in Iraq held under the protection of nearly 160,000 American troops as well as nearly a quarter million soldiers from Iraq and the coalition countries and no reports of any significant violence. Joining me now, General David Grange. General, are you surprised that there weren't any major attacks today by the insurgents?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I thought there would be some attacks, but I think because of the excellence of security, that the emphasis put on that for these elections made a differences. And the other is people really wanted to vote. I mean, the democracy thing, the freedom is an important reason.
DOBBS: There are reports of discussions between U.S. officials and insurgent leaders to work out a period, a pause if you will. What are your thoughts?
GRANGE: There's always cease-fires in conflicts. And I think there was probably coordination conducted between anti-government-type factions, not necessarily terrorist, I don't think there's any negotiations with terrorists, and that's probably part of it.
DOBBS: And let me tell you that our poll right now on the deal reached today between Senator John McCain and the White House banning torture and inhumane treatment. 78 percent of this audience says there is never a reason for national security or any other reason that the United States should ever engage in torture. What's your reaction to that? GRANGE: I think that -- we have to take that position. The moral high ground, you have to be against torture. And the thing is, I'm very concerned with what Congressman Hunter said about taking care of the GI, I totally agree with that. But on the other side, you cannot guarantee intelligence with torture or not torturing. I mean, that is an unachievable request, I believe.
The other thing I want to answer Lou, because I never get polled myself, I want to just skip a piece there, and I want to vote for yes, put up the fence, if you don't mind.
DOBBS: I don't mind at all.
And by the way, there are a lot of yeses on that question. And it hasn't been asked. But we appreciate the answer. We'll ask it tomorrow in your honor, general.
We thank you very much, General David Grange.
Thanks for being with us tonight. We hope you will join us here tomorrow. Among our guests will be Ed Rollins, Republican strategist, Joe Klein, columnist "Time" magazine.
For all of us, you have a very pleasant weekend as well. And for all of us, good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" starting right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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