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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Los Angeles Al Qaeda Plot Thwarted; Former FEMA Director Michael Brown's Threat; Dot Commies; Department Of Transportation Has Proposed New Rule That Would Allow Foreign Corporations To Take Control Of U.S. Airlines; General David Grange Assesses Military; Mayor Believes Illegal Aliens Should Have The Same Rights As Citizens
Aired February 09, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Thursday, February 9th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, President Bush says al Qaeda planned to destroy the tallest building on the West Coast four years ago. Is this new evidence of al Qaeda's intentions, or is it Washington playing terrorist politics?
We're live at the White House and in Los Angeles with the stories.
And the man President Bush once said was doing a great job, former FEMA director Michael Brown, is now making threats against the White House.
We'll have that special report.
Also tonight, two opposing views of our illegal immigration crisis. My guest, former Colorado governor Dick Lamm, who says state and local government should cut off all services to illegal aliens to protect the social fabric of this country.
And my guest, the mayor of one American town, David Kapell, who says local government must provide services to illegal aliens as a matter of conscience and human decency.
All of that and a great deal more coming right up.
We begin with President Bush's declaration that al Qaeda tried to destroy the tallest building west of the Mississippi. President Bush said radical Islamist terrorists planned to hijack an airliner and then crash it into the U.S. Bank Tower in Los Angeles four years ago. President Bush said the plot was stopped with the help of a Southeast Asian country which he did not name.
Dana Bash reports from the White House -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, officials here say that what we heard from the president today, some of the new details, is part of an ongoing effort by this White House to make the case that we haven't seen an attack since 9/11 and it's not an accident.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: This Los Angeles skyscraper, the president disclosed, was the target of a planned al Qaeda follow-up to the 9/11 attacks that was foiled in 2002.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hijack an airplane using shoe bombs to breach the cockpit door and fly the plane into the tallest building on the West Coast.
BASH: Mr. Bush offered newly declassified details of an alleged plot the White House first confirmed in general terms four months ago. The vivid new description is part of a Bush effort to justify controversial tactics in fighting terror.
The president revealed that 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed recruited Southeast Asian men to diminish suspicion and tapped Hambali, leader of an al Qaeda affiliate, to lead and recruit others training in Afghanistan.
BUSH: They met with Osama bin Laden and then began preparations for the West Coast attack.
BASH: Mr. Bush said in arrests by an unnamed South Asian ally, followed by interrogations, led to information used to disrupt the plot.
Bush officials refused to say whether the domestic surveillance program helped their investigation and emphatically deny this speech has anything to do with the controversy over secret spying.
So why reveal details now? The White House says it wanted to highlight successful cooperation from allies and the need for instantaneous information-gathering and sharing. That's the same argument Bush officials make to support the controversial surveillance program.
So is this...
BUSH: We cannot let the fact that America hadn't been attacked in four and a half years since September the 11th lull us into an illusion that the threats to our nation have disappeared.
BASH: Some Democrats suggest Mr. Bush is using new details and fresh talk of the threat to raise his political standing and win public support for strong presidential powers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is their playbook. You know, wherever they sense they are losing control, they go back to the war on terror. Clearly, they've made a conscious decision today to talk about the past, not about the present.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BASH: California Democrat Dianne Feinstein, a senator who sits on the Intelligence Committee, said today she has not seen evidence that this plot was ever "bona fide," and that, Lou, is a point that officials here strongly disagree with.
DOBBS: Well, bona fide or not, why today?
BASH: That's the question that we have been asking today, all day long. What they say are many things.
First of all, Fran Townsend, the president's homeland security point person, said that they have been trying to get information, trying to get illustration out there to show that they are in fact doing what needs to be done to stop terrorism and that this is something that they've been working with the intelligence community on, to try to declassify it has taken quite some time. But that's not playing very well among some Democrats, Lou, who see this simply perhaps as a way to detract from the issue that they are talking about on Capitol Hill, which is the surveillance program.
But they are certainly not backing down on that particular point here at the White House today -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana Bash.
Thank you very much, from the White House.
The U.S. Bank Tower is a thousand feet high. It is, therefore, the tallest building in the United States west of the Mississippi.
The tower is designed to withstand an earthquake of more than eight points on the Richter scale. It is the tallest building in the world in a region of major earthquake activity. And the tower has, if you are taking note, the highest helipad on any building in the entire world.
The mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaraigosa, said today he was not told about the details of the al Qaeda plot before the president's speech today. He said communications with the White House, in fact, are non-existent.
Kareen Wynter reports from the base of the U.S. Bank Tower in Los Angeles.
Kareen, the White House says the mayor's wrong, that the city of Los Angeles was told the president was going to make this address yesterday.
KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the mayor absolutely saying the opposite tonight, Lou. In fact, he's directing his anger at Washington, saying that he didn't know all of the facts would be divulged today.
Mayor Villaraigosa saying of course that he knew of this general plot from 2002 that was thwarted. But with the specifics that we heard regarding the shoe bomb reference, as well as the fact that al Qaeda would be turning to Southeast Asia operatives instead of Arabs, he said that that was entirely new.
Now, the Los Angeles Police Department isn't commenting on this at this hour. In fact, the chief is in Washington, D.C. He did refer any comments to a spokesperson who was also at this news conference with the mayor.
The mayor adding, Lou, that right now there is no specific imminent threat to Los Angeles or to the tower behind me, but that of course Los Angeles will always remain a target -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kareen, the mayor, was he looking for some money today, asking for more money for Los Angeles? Is there a lot of terrorism politics going on here?
WYNTER: Absolutely. The issue of funding came up today twice. There were two news conferences that the mayor held.
He also pointed, Lou, that they are trying to implement 83 new positions that would in essence deal with counterterrorism, also the level of preparedness, and that to get that off the ground money is desperately needed. So it was highlighted as well.
DOBBS: Kareen Wynter from Los Angeles.
Thank you.
The federal government is abandoning a new airline security plan after spending more than $130 million on the program. Transportation Security Administration director Kip Hawley says protests from privacy groups are one of the main reasons that the plan is being drooped.
The TSA spent four years developing this new system. It's called Secure Flight. It was designed to check passengers against terrorist watch lists.
Later here, we will have a special report on another potential threat against the national interest, a U.S. government proposal that will allow foreign corporations to own U.S. airlines outright.
And a new report tonight, apparently demonstrating the huge influence of former lobbyist Jack Abramoff in Congress. Senate Minority Leader Senator Harry Reid wrote at least four letters helpful to Indian tribes represented by Abramoff, according to The Associated Press. Senator Reid reportedly collected nearly $70,000 from groups associated with Abramoff.
Abramoff himself has pleaded guilty to fraud and bribery charges. He is now helping federal prosecutors investigate lawmakers and their staffs.
Tonight, Senator Reid's office said he did not write the letters to Indian tribes on behalf of Abramoff and Senator Reid has never taken contribution from Abramoff.
Former House majority leader Tom DeLay, who is facing money laundering charges in Texas, has a new job in the House of Representatives. The Republican leadership has made Congressman DeLay a member of the powerful Appropriations Committee.
Congressman DeLay will also sit on the subcommittee that oversees the Justice Department. The Democratic National Committee said allowing Tom DeLay to sit on a committee in charge of giving out money is like putting Michael Brown back in charge of FEMA.
Speaking of Michael Brown, the disgraced former head of FEMA is refusing to go quietly. Brown is threatening to reveal private e- mails with President Bush about the Hurricane Katrina disaster unless the White House provides him with legal counsel.
Jeanne Meserve has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice over): Michael Brown intends to answer senators' questions fully, completely and accurately, says his lawyer.
BUSH: Brown, you're doing a heck of a job.
MESERVE: Until now, Brown has complied with the White House request not to discuss with congressional investigators his communications with top administration officials. But Brown's lawyer wrote the White House last Friday saying, "Unless there is specific direction otherwise by the president, including an assurance the president will provide a legal defense to Mr. Brown if he refuses to testify, Mr. Brown will testify about particular communications with White House officials."
The lawyer describes Brown, no longer a government employee, as between a rock and a hard place, Congress and the president.
Senator Joseph Lieberman, ranking Democrat on the committee probing the Katrina response, says he hopes critical questions about who in the White House knew what, when, and what they did about it will now be answered.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: I tell you, I take it as a very important moment here, and an encouraging moment that Michael Brown, through his lawyer, has essentially said he's prepared to come in and tell the committee everything he knows tomorrow unless the White House tells him not to.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Brown's lawyer had asked for a White House response to his letter by last night, and the White House said this afternoon it is working on one -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jeanne Meserve.
Thank you very much, reporting from Washington.
As we reported, Michael Brown is scheduled to testify before the Senate Homeland Security Committee tomorrow. The committee's chairman is Senator Susan Collins. Tonight, Senator Collins' office told us that the committee expects Brown to answer questions fully, completely and honestly.
Make sure to tune in to this broadcast tomorrow evening as we continue to follow this story.
New charges tonight that Yahoo! has put profits ahead of democratic values in its dealings with communist China. Reporters Without Borders says Yahoo! gave the communist Chinese government information that led to the jailing of a writer. This is the second time that Yahoo! has been accused of helping China jail an Internet user.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Serious new accusations against American Internet company Yahoo! Media watchdog Reporters Without Borders, "Now we know Yahoo! works regularly and efficiently with the Chinese police."
Yahoo! was accused of helping Chinese police investigate and arrest Li Zhi, who is serving eight years in prison for trying to join the China Democracy Party.
HENDERSON MULLIN, INDEX ON CENSORSHIP: And I don't think that individual rights are commodities to be traded or exchanged, particularly when they are not your own right. And I think that Yahoo!, along with other Internet companies, are culpable for this. And I think it's indefensible for them to operate in this way.
ROMANS: Yahoo! says it is unaware of the case and is looking into it. But a spokesman says it gives the communist Chinese information on its users only when compelled. "The choice in China is not whether to comply, rather the choice is whether to remain in the country."
ETHAN GUTMANN, AUTHOR, "LOSING THE NEW CHINA": The problem they are having is standing up. They start to see things in terms of the Chinese environment only.
It's a -- this is a global world. This is a larger picture here. And there are some moral principles, principles that Americans have been dying and fighting for recently. They are selling those out.
ROMANS: Business ethicists say Internet companies borne out of free speech now undermine it in China.
TOM DONALDSON, PROFESSOR, THE WHARTON SCHOOL: If we are going to stand up for the right of free speech of a Danish newspaper to publish cartoons, even when we know those cartoons may offend some people, we'd better not cave in when there are a lot of dollars at stake in another country.
ROMANS: Yahoo! says it remains in China "with the conviction that involvement in China contributes to the active modernization of that country." (END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: But there's nothing modern about arresting people simply for what they say. Internet companies say they are selling communications tools and they are actually helping spread democracy there. But so far, it appears they are only spreading the power of the government, not the people -- Lou.
DOBBS: It is remarkable. And such shallow, bold rationalization of a total abandonment of American principles.
ROMANS: And China is in the midst of an historic crackdown on the media, on Internet free speech. I mean, to make those arguments now amidst that environment is almost ludicrous.
DOBBS: Christine Romans.
Thank you.
This case is the latest in the series of examples of U.S. Internet companies helping communist China suppress its burgeoning opportunity to have something approaching freedom of speech. Last September, Yahoo! was accused of helping China identify a man who was subsequently jailed for 10 years.
In December, Microsoft shut down a blog at MSN Spaces on the orders of the communist Chinese government.
And last month, Google faced charges of collaboration with communist China when it set up a separate Internet search engine for China that excludes any criticism of the Beijing communist regime.
Still ahead here, border sheriffs speaking out on the worsening border crime. They say their lives are in danger every single day and who cares? We'll have the special report.
And then, why the Department of Transportation wants to potentially give away control of U.S. airlines to foreign corporations and countries.
And fears of the avian flu are spreading like wildfire in one country. We'll have the very latest coming up here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Homeland security officials today all but conceded that they have lost the war to control our nation's border with Mexico. Officials admit that border violence has risen by more than 100 percent this year. They are being forced to announce yet another new effort to tighten border security.
Louise Schiavone reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Confronting a sudden crescendo of border violence, U.S. officials are warning that American Border Patrol agents will be taking off the gloves.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Our Border Patrol is properly trained. They have rules of engagement. They are entitled to defend themselves, they will defend themselves. We will support them in applying these rules of engagement.
SCHIAVONE: Making the point with agency video from the U.S.- Mexico border, U.S. Border Patrol chief David Aguilar described a 108 percent jump in assaults on U.S. border officers, assaults involving rocks, flaming rocks, firearms at speeding cars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the inside where one of our officers did take a rock to his eye. That's blood.
SCHIAVONE: In the fiscal year that ended last September, there were roughly 800 attacks on the Border Patrol. In the past four months alone, there have been around 200 attacks.
This attack in Yuma, Arizona, involved a van loaded with 19 illegals, including two minors and a pregnant woman, ramming a tribal police car. There were ultimately apprehended.
DAVID AGUILAR, CHIEF, U.S. BORDER PATROL: Where we do have to take the actions of serious consequence, this is what we are facing.
SCHIAVONE: Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff blames sophisticated and brutal cartels that smuggle drugs and people.
CHERTOFF: If they think they are going to back us down or chase us away, the answer to that is no.
SCHIAVONE: Chertoff says Mexican officials are equally concerned and committed to ending border violence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, Chertoff is hoping Congress will go along with proposed Homeland Security budget increases to add 1,500 more Border Patrol agents, more agents to track down fugitive aliens, and more high-tech equipment for surveillance and apprehension -- Lou.
DOBBS: Louise, thank you very much.
Louise Schiavone from Washington.
Tonight, our nation's border sheriffs are speaking out about this new border violence that is putting their very lives at risk. The sheriffs say Washington bureaucrats and Homeland Security officials are completely out of touch with what is actually happening on our borders and Washington is indifferent to what they go through each day to protect this country.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Who better to remind Washington, D.C., that our nation's borders are in desperate need of federal attention than a group of Stetson-wearing Texas sheriffs? The Texas Border Sheriffs Coalition wrapped up two days of meetings with members of Congress and White House staffers. Their message, local law enforcement and the Border Patrol need more resources to cope with increasingly violent illegal alien and drug smugglers.
RICK GLANCEY, TEXAS BORDER SHERIFF'S COALITION: The Border Patrol does a great job, but they need more resources, they need more manpower. And when things do get by them and people coming across commit crimes in our local communities, they dial 911. And the person that responds to that in rural Texas is your local sheriff.
WIAN: Incredibly, the sheriffs say the Bush administration was surprised by their true-life tales of out-of-control violence, incursions by the Mexican military, and assaults against U.S. law enforcement.
SHERIFF ARVIN WEST, HUDSPETH COUNTY, TEXAS: They seemed to be surprised at some of the issues we brought up that they apparently were not aware about.
WIAN: Hudspeth County Sheriff West says two of his deputies and the wife of a third have received death threats warning them to say away from the border. That after a recent armed confrontation between suspected members of the Mexican military and his sheriffs.
WEST: The border's wide open. It's -- what comes through there is ultimately going to end up in the United States in different areas. And it's a concern that we all need to have.
WIAN: A spokesman for Texas Republican Senator John Cornyn says the meetings went well and could result in short-term redeployment of some resources to the Texas border. LOU DOBBS TONIGHT has also learned the Senate leaders have set a deadline of March 27 for a comprehensive border security to be ready for a vote. It's expected to contain four components: border security, work site enforcement, mandatory employer verification of legal status, and a temporary worker program.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: As part of that process, the Texas sheriffs say they will be back in Washington March 1 for a formal Senate hearing on border security -- Lou.
DOBBS: It is remarkable that people in Washington could be surprised about anything happening on our border after all of these years, don't you think?
WIAN: They must not be watching our broadcast -- Lou.
DOBBS: That's the only explanation I can think of.
Casey Wian. Thank you.
WIAN: OK.
DOBBS: In tonight's poll we want to know what you think. Are you surprised that the Bush administration is surprised by the level of violence on our southern border?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
Still ahead, some of your thoughts on our broken borders.
And then, an alarming warning tonight on the deadly avian flu. We'll have the story for you.
And we'll tell you why one plan by the Department of Transportation could put your safety in the skies at risk as well as our national security.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The World Health Organization is tonight warning that bird flu could soon spread rapidly through Africa. Nigeria tonight is reporting new cases of the disease in birds. Tens of thousands of birds in Nigeria have died from the deadly strain. The WHO says bird flu could easily spread from Nigeria to other African nations and says African citizens are now in danger of becoming infected.
Bird flu has been detected in 20 countries. Seven countries reported human cases. More than 80 people have died from the bird flu worldwide.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts, Scott in Tennessee wrote in to say, "I bet the Bush administration really hates you. After I listen to their rhetoric telling me how rosy everything is in this country, I always come back to your show as a reality check."
Anne in West Virginia, "Mr. Bush said, 'God bless America.' Well, I sure hope god blesses us. Mr. Bush has sure made a mess of things. We're going without health care, losing our jobs. If our jobs stayed here and illegals were not encouraged to come in we might stand a chance."
And Elaine in Indiana, "Who's sneaking across our southern border wearing Mexican military uniforms? One, the Mexican military. Two, illegal aliens. Three, drug smugglers. Four, Al Qaeda."
"The point is our borders are being breached. Does anyone in Washington care?"
And Cheryl in Michigan, "Thank you for referring to China as 'Communist China.' The news media should be calling China what it really is." We love hearing your thoughts. Please send them to us at loudobbs.com and we will be sharing more of your thoughts later here in the broadcast.
Tonight you can say the U.S. Army is changing its rules of engagement. In addition to helping, of course, protect this country, our nation's military has launched a new program to help its troops pick the right spouse. The Army says its new counseling program is necessary because divorce rates in the military has soared.
The name of the new program is straight forward enough. It is called How to Avoid Marrying a Jerk.
Coming up next year, the Bush administration revealing details of what is now a 4-year-old terrorist plot. Why did the White House wait until now?
And a new threat to our nation's security. Why foreign corporations in countries may soon gain control of this country's airline industry.
And I'll talk with a former governor who's made it his mission to cut off taxpayer-funded public money for illegal aliens.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today announced al Qaeda plan to destroy the tallest building on the West Coast four years ago. But he said the plot was foiled with the help of other countries. President Bush made his announcement as he pushes Congress to permanently renew the Patriot Act and he fights criticism of secret government wiretaps.
Dana Bash reports from the White House -- Dana.
BASH: Well, Lou, a senior official here today said they are always looking for ways to help illustrate and back up the claim that they make often that they are winning the war on terror. And they figure what better way to illustrate that with a success story than to give the details of a plot against a building in Los Angeles that we will all put on our TV screens, that the American people will all see as they are now.
So that is part of the reason they are doing this.
The other question from many Democrats' perspective is whether or not they actually announced this today to perhaps -- to divert from the national -- the secret surveillance program that is certainly very controversial and a hot topic here in Washington. They would not say here, Lou, whether or not that particular program helped to thwart this plot that the president talked about today, but they did use very similar language.
The president himself using similar language to defend that program and to explain the thwarted attack today. He said that we cannot be lulled into an illusion that the threats have disappeared against this country -- Lou.
DOBBS: It is with Mayor Villaraigosa in Los Angeles calling for more money for funding in his city and a spat with the White House apparently over being notified or not notified, it looks like terrorism politics. It's -- it really does look, frankly, very bad, whether you're talking about the local level or the federal level.
BASH: Well, you know, people here at the White House wouldn't necessarily say this, certainly not on the record, but it is not a secret that Republicans do believe -- and we've seen this over the past several weeks the way they have talked about the NSA surveillance program -- that the terrorism issue is still their top issue this midterm elections, in these elections.
And the White House doesn't make a secret about the fact that the president is going to keep talking about it. That's what he did today, and like any communications strategy they want him to have new things to talk about. That's what they did today.
DOBBS: And his top political adviser Karl Rove two weeks ago making it very clear that that was the direction that the Republicans would be taking. It is perhaps unfortunate timing. Nonetheless, it raises important questions. Dana Bash, thank you for answering some of those questions as always. Appreciate it.
BASH: Thank you.
DOBBS: Also today, the White House reached a deal that could help the Patriot Act pass the Senate. Four Republican senators who were resisting an extension of the Patriot Act today agreed to support minor changes to it.
One of those senators, Senator John Sununu of New Hampshire, says the changes will do more to protect American civil liberties in the war on terror. The latest extension of the Patriot Act expires on the 10th of March.
Tonight, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is trying to turn the most potent political issue for Republicans -- national security -- against the Republicans. Senator Clinton is accusing Republicans of playing the quote, "fear card" to win elections. She says Republicans have been incompetent in their handling of key national security issues like the hunt for Osama bin Laden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Thank you all so much. You cannot explain to me why we have not captured or killed the tallest man in Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The GOP says this about Senator Clinton's remarks: quote, "Hillary Clinton and her fellow Democrats continue to promote a litany of attacks, rather than any agenda of their own. America will be better served when Democrats take off the gloves and come to the take with substantive ideas," end quote.
Howard Dean, quick from the table. The chairman of the Democratic National Committee out with his own criticism of the Bush administration today. Dean warning that the United States could turn into a police state. Dean even went so far as to compare the Bush administration to the Iranian government. Dean said quote, "all we ask is that we not turn into a country like Iran where the President can do anything he wants," end quote.
Tonight, outrage on Capitol Hill over a new proposal that could threaten our national security. The Department of Transportation has proposed a new rule that would allow foreign corporations and companies to effectively take control of U.S. airlines. A House subcommittee reviewed the proposal and immediately rejected it. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Members of the House Aviation Subcommittee were unanimous in their opposition to the proposed rule change. They question the Department of Transportation's legal authority to make such a change, and they wasted no time cutting straight to the chase.
REP. PETER DEFAZIO (D), OREGON: It's the same bad deal that we've gotten every time around. Let's wake up. Let's serve the interests of the American traveling public, American security, American jobs, and start doing the same things that some of our competitors have done so well which is protect high valued jobs.
TUCKER: The proposed rule change by the Department of Transportation still calls for U.S. companies to have majority ownership. But ...
JEFF SHANE, DEPT. OF TRANSPORTATION: Depending upon what agreement they had with the U.S. owners and the people that are in control of the airline, they would be able to make the commercial decisions that define the shape of the product, the quality of the product, the routes that were flown.
TUCKER: If that's not clear enough ...
DUANE WOERTH, AIR LINE PILOTS ASSN.: They will control the board, whether super majority or not. They will hire a CEO. He will hire everyone else and he will do exactly what they want, or they'll fire him and he'll get somebody who will. That's the real world, not the Fantasy Island, egghead, ivory tower I heard today.
EDWARD WYTKIND, TRANSP. TRADES DEPT., AFL-CIO: If you are going to make decisions about what aircraft you buy, who maintains your planes, whether flight attendants are going to staff the planes from the United States or from a foreign country, whether pilots are going to fly the planes, those decisions will rest in the hands of the foreign interest that control the company. And I don't think that's good for the country. TUCKER: And yet, while the administration stands ready to surrender effective control of domestic airlines, U.S. airlines would not be welcome to do the same to their European counterparts.
JEFFREY SMISEK, CONTINENTAL AIRLINES: The European Union completely snookered the Department of Transportation here. I mean, it's a very one-sided treaty and the Department of Transportation is so desperate for the treaty that they are causing tremendous competitive harm.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: The proposed rule change is the result of trade negotiations with the European Union to open up greater access of U.S. carriers in Europe. The change granting foreign control of our airlines is a condition for granting that access by the E.U. A spokesman for the Department of Transportation told me today that there is no deadline for a decision on the proposed change, Lou.
DOBBS: You know, after -- first, excellent job of reporting that story. Second, what a shame that we have to report that story about the United States' government and its absolute -- it is absolutely a story of incompetence.
To talk about failed trade policies is one thing. This is a transportation department that is out of its mind. It is a trade negotiator that is utterly incompetent. And fools in Washington want to talk about free trade? I mean, it's mind boggling.
TUCKER: Every single member that subcommittee, Lou, would agree with you. To a person, in a bipartisan fashion, they think DOT has way overstepped its bounds.
DOBBS: Well, the DOT certainly, the U.S. trade negotiators and this administration. To continue this kind of assault on working men and women in this country to turn over the national security, does anybody in this administration understand that our troops are transported by U.S. air carriers when we need them in an area for combat?
TUCKER: Exactly.
DOBBS: It's extraordinary. Bill Tucker, thank you for that excellent report. But doggone it, you got me a little annoyed. Thank you.
A new report calls our nation's domestic manufacturing production quote, "clearly disturbing." You've been hearing that here for about three years. Now this new study calls for a new U.S. policy committed to accelerating production in of all places, the United States of America.
This report, by economists Joel Popkin and Katherine Koevy (ph), documents that while American manufacturers are making fewer goods here, they are spending more and more of their research and development dollars, guess where? Overseas. And the authors of this report also make it clear that as those dollars shift offshore, so does American innovation, setting up the need for skilled workers, engineers and scientists outside the United States. Remarkably, this report published by my friends at the Manufacturing Institute of the National Association of Manufactures.
Tonight, former Colorado Governor Dick Lamm is alerting all Americans to the high cost of cheap, illegal alien labor. Governor Lamm is fighting to cut off state services to Colorado's growing illegal alien population. He says American tax payers can't continue to pay for illegal aliens breaking our laws.
Dick Lamm, a three-term governor of Colorado joins us tonight from Denver. He is also the writer of a new book, "Two Wands, One Nation." Good to have you with us, Governor.
DICK LAMM, FMR. COLORADO GOVERNOR: My pleasure.
DOBBS: As we survey what is happening in this country, and estimate that as high as 20 million illegal aliens, why is it that this government, this executive department in all of its agencies, this Congress cannot come to grips with this issue?
LAMM: Especially relating to your earlier story about the terrorism and the national security. You know, it seems to me that in the United States, there's all kinds of millions of people out there that want to kill us or do us great harm.
And it seems to me that before you get on an airplane, open up a bank account or get a job, you should show that you are legally in the United States. I think it's ultimately a question of illegal immigration as you point out. You start with the fact that it's a question of national security.
DOBBS: Can you explain it any way -- because no one has to this point -- how this administration can talk about a guest worker program -- forget the merits of it -- without first having the ability to control our borders?
LAMM: Yes, I think that you add to the guest worker. One of the things that we've learned guest worker programs is that they themselves generate additional illegal immigration. When people -- the more people that have a nexus or a relationship to the United States, the more people come both legally and illegally.
So I think this guest worker program -- you know, we don't know so many of the details. It's sort of typical George Bush. We don't know how the kids are going to be educated. Whether or not -- who's going to pay for the health care cost? Are they going to be covered by workman's compensation? I mean, there's so many unanswered questions to this that we hardly know what to react to.
DOBBS: Governor, the ballot initiative you are pushing forward, the key elements that you think are most critical to dealing with the crisis? LAMM: Well, I -- you know, most of the levers about illegal immigration are at the federal level. What we are trying to do is both -- I call it surface and symbol. We are trying to save ourselves some tax payer's money, but second of all, we are really trying to continue.
The main thing, in my mind, is to put pressure on Washington. I think after the Arizona vote, after both two governors declared emergencies, I would love to see Colorado strongly go on record as saying illegal immigration is something we won't tolerate. So it's both saving tax payers' money, but it's also the symbolism to try to put some pressure on Washington.
DOBBS: Governor, let me just ask you one thing. Howard Dean yesterday attacked President Bush, the GOP and the Minuteman Project, called on President Bush to condemn attacks on immigrants and to stand up to anti-immigration extremists in his own party, referring to the Minuteman project. What's your reaction to that? Are you lined up with your party?
LAMM: No, I'm not. And frankly, I don't think the party is lined up with the average Democrat. Lou, as you know, and as you've pointed out, a vast majority of Republicans, Democrats and Independents object to illegal immigration. I don't think Howard Dean or the Democratic apparatus speaks for the average Democrat on that.
DOBBS: Well Howard Dean does not have the courage to come on this broadcast and talk about anti-immigrant elements within the Minuteman Project or in this argument, because he is confounding and confounding purposely.
And I'm saying it straight out to Howard Dean tonight. He's trying to confuse a debate that demands clarity and honesty by talking about anti-immigrant sentiment when the issue is anti-illegal immigration in this country and border security. And that kind of obfuscation won't work in his party, it won't work in the Republican Party, and my hope, at least come November.
LAMM: I've talked to him about this myself. And I think that I told him the story -- the first time I got interested in illegal immigration is when a local packing plant fired a bunch of Hispanic Coloradans and hired a bunch of illegal immigrants. And you know, these kinds of stories go on all the time out here.
DOBBS: Yes, it is exploitation of the worst kind, it is from the left, it is from the right. And it has no place in a place we call America. Governor Lamm, thanks for being here, we appreciate it.
LAMM: My pleasure.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. Are you surprised the Bush administration is surprised by the level of violence on our southern border? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com, we'll have the results. Perhaps they will be surprising, coming up here later.
Just ahead, one American mayor's controversial plan to count illegals in his census so he can give them benefits. He's my guest here coming right up. And then, the defense secretary wants to spend billions of dollars on high-technology weaponry, while critics say what we really need are more troops. General David Grange will be with us. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld wants to spend nearly half a trillion dollars on the military next year. The defense secretary's proposed budget includes huge sums of money for high- technology weapons, such as the F-22 fighter jet that will have little or no value in the war on terror.
Meanwhile the Army and Marines still do not have enough infantry to fight in Iraq, Afghanistan, and provide a strategic response and reserve to deal with other global threats. Joining me now to assess this budget and the direction of our military's future, General David Grange. General, good to see you.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Same, Lou.
DOBBS: When we look at this budget and there is the straight- forward statement that there is going to be a trade off between technology and boots on the ground, is this a budget with which you and other generals, the command is comfortable?
GRANGE: Not really. Ideally you want to cover all the bases. You want to cover everything from counter-terrorism and humanitarian assistance all the way up to a major war, let's say with some place like North Korea, Iran, maybe even China. The problem is there's not enough money to cover it all. So what's the prudent place to put most of your assets? And I would say it always is boots on the ground.
DOBBS: And boots on the ground, we're strapped in so many ways, whether it be in terms of the Reserves, whether it be the National Guard or the regular Army and Marine Corps, which is fully recruited. But still, not of a size that many had anticipated it would be taken to. What should we be looking for in terms of the strength of our forces?
GRANGE: Well first of all, Lou, regardless of the strength of the force, it must be paid appropriately to keep up with the private sector. They must be well taken care of because that's your greatest resource, people. The second is we already know, I think, that the military is too small. And I don't think in a foreseeable future, where you require a lot of Marines and soldiers, that you can cut it lower.
For sure you probably have to grow it. Now it's tough to get those people. But you have to grow it higher for at least the immediate future. And what seems to be what's going to happen around the world in the fight against terrorism in a regular warfare.
DOBBS: General David Grange, as always, thanks for being here. We'll talk to you soon.
GRANGE: My pleasure, Lou.
DOBBS: An update now on the Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund. The fund raising $35 million to build a new rehabilitation center for our wounded men and women, returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The fund needs another $4.5 million over the next month. To contribute, please go to fallenheroesfund.org. You can link as well through loudobbs.com or call 1-800-340-HERO, 1-800-340-HERO. Again, the fallenheroesfund.org.
Still ahead here, more of your thoughts on the Mohammed cartoon controversy and then an American mayor says Latino immigrants are the new middle class in his hometown. He's my guest here next. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Wolf Blitzer and THE SITUATION ROOM coming right up. Wolf, tell us about it.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thank very much, Lou. The Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, he's be among my guests. We'll talk about the foiled L.A. terror plot President Bush detailed today.
And we're also following some new developments in the CIA leak investigation. How much was Lewis Scooter Libby, the vice president's former chief-of-staff authorized to tell journalists? And who authorized it? And Howard Stern is about to get some competition on satellite radio. We're going to tell you who is the latest big star to sign on -- Lou.
DOBBS: Wolf, thank you very much. Well my guest now is the mayor of an American town who says illegal aliens should have the same benefits as American citizens. Mayor David Kapell of Greenport, New York, joins me now. Mayor, that's radical and I must say intriguing. Why would illegal aliens who are here illegally be entitled to the same service as those who are U.S. citizens in your town?
DAVID KAPELL, MAYOR, GREENPORT, NEW YORK: Well, Lou, the way in which federal policy is operating is putting these people in our community and making them our neighbors, whether he like it or not. This is real. And the way I was brought up, you treat neighbor like neighbors.
DOBBS: They are neighbors. There's no question about that. They're working in your city and you are making it possible for employers of those illegal aliens, presumably in your city, to continue to hire them. Doesn't that put you in the awkward position of aiding and abetting illegal employers?
KAPELL: Well I think we're following the lead that's established by the federal government. They are not following their own law. You've got an immigration law that's like a screen door on a submarine.
DOBBS: It's a screen door on a submarine. That may even be more tangible than what we are seeing. Would you, if you had your choices, tell President Bush, "By the way, we do have immigration laws. We do have borders. Enforce both?"
KAPELL: I certainly favor sealing the border. And I don't believe that it can't be done. If we can put a man on the moon, we can seal our border.
DOBBS: What has been the reaction in your town?
KAPELL: The reaction of my town has been very favorable.
DOBBS: And your tax payers, those who have property in your town are going to be paying for this, and are paying for it? How do they feel about it?
KAPELL: Well they recognize that these people have become an important part of our community. Lou, they are providing labor that fuels our local economy. I mean, this is real.
DOBBS: It's real and yet at the same time, it's illegal.
KAPELL: I understand that. But we are slaves to a failed federal policy. The question is are we going to fail at the local level also and not treat human beings like human beings, not respect the right of a child to go home to a family that is not in hiding? That's not living in a third world within our own?
I mean, those are dangerous conditions on Main Street. I don't have the luxury of sitting up here in a television studio or in an ivory tower somewhere detached from the reality. I run my village from a store-front office on Front Street. These problems walk in my door. I have to deal with them one-to-one. I just, I can't turn my back on it. I walk my dog this summer down my own block and encountered a homeless person sleeping on the beach.
DOBBS: And that homeless person, you think was illegal?
KAPELL: I don't think there's any doubt that this was an illegal alien who hadn't found work.
DOBBS: And I find it intriguing that you, and by the way I complement you for your humanity. And I think we would share that, and nearly every American would share that.
But at what point do you have to come to terms with saying to your congressman, to your governor, it's about time somebody decided what the law is here, because if we are not going to obey the laws of our border, if we're not going to obey our immigration laws, why should any American paying for these services -- by the way there are as many as 20 million illegal aliens in this country by some estimates, by the Bear Stearns estimate.
KAPELL: That's the problem, Lou, it's an estimate. They don't have accurate information.
DOBBS: Well, if we started talking about what we don't have in the way of accurate information, but the fact is that changes congressional representation throughout the country. What are you saying to your governor and to your congressional delegation?
KAPELL: What we're saying is we're going to get the right information four our village, our square mile of earth in this country. We are going to present an accurate picture of what our community -- and then we are going to sit down and talk about what the significance is of that. At the local level, we'll share that information with our elected representatives of state and local and federal government and see where it goes.
DOBBS: Mayor Kapell, it's good of you to be here. Like your instincts, now let's find some policy. How about it?
KAPELL: I'm with you. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead, more of your thoughts on the cartoon controversy. And the results of our poll tonight, they may be surprising. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, 78 percent of you responded that you are not surprised that the Bush administration is surprised by the level of violence on our southern border, 22 percent of you therefore are not surprised that the administration is surprised.
And now more of your thoughts. Many of you wrote in about the protests over the Mohammed cartoons.
Chris in California said: I'm amazed at the wildfire reaction to the cartoons of Mohammed. Sure, it's tasteless and insensitive, but I think it would lend some much needed credibility to the protests if they reacted the same way every time someone did tuck a bomb under their hat and walked into a pizzeria.
Fernando in Dallas wrote in about the latest plan to fix our failing education system. He wrote to say: I was shocked to hear that the school district I work for, the Dallas Independent School District, is seriously considering hiring illegal immigrants as bilingual school teachers. How can a major school district in our country be allowed to commit such an illegal act?
This is one of those places there's only one answer, only in America.
And Ronald in Wisconsin: Let me get this straight. People come here illegally. They have children who are now legal. They stay here and they get hired by employers illegally. Now, five years later, their children, who still haven't learned English, are ready for school. We don't pay teachers enough, so we hire illegal aliens to teach them English. Are we nuts?
You don't want me to answer that. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Thanks for being with us tonight, please join us here tomorrow when among my guests will be two Arizona lawmakers taking on their governor in a fight to secure their border. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York, THE SITUATION ROOM begins right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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