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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Deadly Day for Troops in Iraq; Senate Immigration Showdown
Aired April 03, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, nine of our troops have been killed in Iraq in one of the deadliest days for Americans in Iraq for months. We'll be live at the Pentagon with a report.
And outrage after one school in this country banned the display of the American flag. Rising anger over the display of Mexican flags in our schools. We'll have that special report.
And a deeply divided U.S. Senate is considering massive immigration reform. Among my guests tonight, one of the Senate's strongest advocates of strong border security, Senator John Cornyn.
Also tonight, illegal aliens are already influencing our society. They may also be threatening the structure of our democracy. Congresswoman Candice Miller has proposed a constitutional amendment to ensure congressional seats are not being allocated on the basis of illegal alien populations. She's our guest here tonight.
We'll have complete coverage of all of that and a great deal more here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Monday, April 3rd.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: We begin with a deadly day for our troops in Iraq. Nine Marines and sailors have been killed in two separate incidents in Al Anbar province, west of Baghdad. It was one of the worst days for our troops in Iraq this year.
Jamie McIntyre has the report from the Pentagon -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, March had a month in which U.S. casualties were going down, but based on the beginning of this month, it looks like the trend is not continuing. Thirteen so far in April, including, as you said, the eight Marines and a sailor who were killed in Al Anbar province in Iraq.
Four of the troops were killed in combat, five of them were killed in a truck accident. That means that so far 2,342 troops U.S. troops killed in Iraq since the war began three years ago, another 17,318 troops have been wounded. And of those wounded, 7,987 are wounded so seriously they could not return to duty. As I said, it was a violent weekend. It started out with a U.S. Apache helicopter being shot down. Sources tell CNN that helicopter was brought down by small arms fire. They are looking at the tactics involved in that, whether the helicopter hovered too long in one spot. But all of this, including a rising number of Iraqi civilian and military deaths in Iraq, has underscored the importance of a new government there.
Today, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her European counterpart, Jack Straw, both made an unannounced visit to Baghdad to underscore the need to form that new government. And neither one mentioned Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the -- the current prime minister, but there's a lot of pressure on him to step aside to try to break the deadlock to get that new government in place -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon.
While American troops are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, outrage is rising in this country over shocking acts of disrespect to the American flag, particularly during last week's demonstrations in favor of illegal alien amnesty and against strict border security. Pro- illegal alien demonstrators who took part in massive protests against the Sensenbrenner immigration bill near Los Angeles last week passed the Montebello High School in Montebello, California.
They took down the American flag which had been flying in front of the school and raised the Mexican flag in its place. And then they took the American flag and raised it up the flagpole upside down, a signal of distress. And despite the fact that dozens of protesters appear to be taking part in these shocking acts, only one student from a nearby school district has been disciplined.
This flag incident just one of a number of protests across the country where illegal aliens and their supporters prominently displayed the Mexican flag and paid a profound lack of respect to the American flag.
As these protests grow across the country, school administrators have shockingly decided not to come out in support of the display of the U.S. flag. At the Skyline High School in Longmont, Colorado, administrators at that school banned the carrying or wearing of both the Mexican and American flags. Students upset that the American flag was included in this ban walked out of class in protest last week. So far, as of tonight, this ban on showing respect for the American flag is unaltered.
And in Houston, Texas, a high school principal went so far as to fly the Mexican flag at his school, and then hundreds of students at that school walked out of classes carrying Mexican flags to protest the Sensenbrenner illegal immigration and border security legislation.
The Senate could vote as soon as this week on major reforms that could lead to historic overhaul of our immigration laws. But many key issues remain unresolved, and others not considered at all, from enhancing border security to whether or not illegal aliens could qualify for guest worker status and possibly even U.S. citizenship.
Dana Bash reports on the clash from Capitol Hill -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou.
Well, the Senate has been deliberating about immigration all afternoon, but behind the scenes what the Republican leadership has been working on is trying to figure out a way to make sure that the division within the Republican Party doesn't make -- make it so that there is just a deadlock when it comes to immigration on the Senate floor. So Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist actually went down to the White House today with two other Republican senators, Senator John Cornyn and Senator Jon Kyl, to meet with Karl Rove, the president's deputy chief of staff, and also the White House congressional liaison, Candy Wolff.
Now, sources familiar with that meeting said it was essentially a strategy session to try to hash out how to craft a guest worker program. That, of course, is the issue that divides Republicans the most, how to craft something that could get the 60 votes most think will be needed to get this issue off of the Senate floor.
Now, on that issue, there is one idea that the majority leader, Bill Frist, is floating, and that in general terms would be to separate out those who have been in the United States for a short time and those who have been in the United States for a little bit longer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: We're going to have to compromise and recognize that that 12 million people is not a monolithic group, it's not a uniform group. Some have been here for 10 years, they're assimilated in our society, and they may have a road to a green card. But some of those 12 million people here -- in fact, 40 percent -- who have been here less than five years need to be dealt in a different way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Meanwhile, Lou, Senator Ted Kennedy, one of the chief sponsors of the bill that passed the Senate Judiciary Committee, which essentially puts illegal immigrants on the path to citizenship, he went to the Senate floor today and blasted the majority leader because he believes, like others who support him, that opponents are calling this issue amnesty, when he insists it is not. He insists that illegal workers would only get a green card after those who have been waiting legally and following the appropriate rules get it first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: And he said that our plan allows undocumented immigrants to jump to the front of the line, when our bill says plainly, in black and white, that they must wait in the back. We should conduct this debate based on fact, not fiction, thoughtful policy and not bumper-sticker solutions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, Republicans are going to meet tomorrow morning to try to hash out their many differences over this issue. One thing that's interesting, Lou, is that the Senate majority leader said over the weekend he does want to get this through, finished by the end of the week, at least when it comes to the Senate. But I'm told in some private meetings, especially the one at the White House, it did come up that perhaps that is simply not going to happen, that there are enough discussions that many on both sides of the aisle think they need to have, votes on amendments they think they need to get through that they don't want to rush it.
Perhaps this could go past this week. Of course the Congress will have a two-week recess. Perhaps they're going to continue to take this up after that. But it's too early to tell right now what can happen -- Lou.
DOBBS: Any statement as to why there is such a rush, why the Senate majority leader himself has put such a constrained timetable on this legislation, why the White House wants it now?
BASH: Well, the Senate majority leader has said over and over again he has set this timetable because he feels that he understands the main issue is going to be the divide over the Senate and the House. That is going to take a long, long time to hash out. And that what he says is that they need to get this issue from the Senate to the conference, and that that's going to take a long time. That's what his argument is.
DOBBS: And no urgency attached to securing our borders and our ports?
BASH: If you talk to Senate Majority Leader Frist, he says border security is his top issue, but all of those issues, all of those issues, Lou, I don't need to tell you, are main, main things that senators are debating, and it's not -- it's not unheard of that even Democrats and Republicans say that they are very upset that this is going so fast -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Dana Bash, from Capitol Hill.
Later here, I'll be talking with Senator John Cornyn, as Dana just reported, meeting with the White House leadership on this issue. Senator Cornyn, for his part, says there can be no amnesty for illegal aliens in this country.
There is a huge gap between the Senate and the House legislation on how to resolve the illegal immigration crisis and how to deal, if not totally with border security, at least taking early incipient steps to do -- secure those borders. If the Senate does pass an immigration reform bill, there could be another major political confrontation in a joint House-Senate conference committee.
Lisa Sylvester has that report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The House bill that passed last year makes illegal presence in the United States a felony and requires employers verify legal status of all legal workers. By contrast, the Senate is debating a bill that would legalize the 12 million-plus illegal aliens in the United States and sets up a guest worker program to bring in even more workers.
The House bill and final Senate version eventually will have to be reconciled in conference committee and signed off by the legislative bodies. But the gap is so large, many are now questioning if there will be consensus.
AMY WALTER, COOK POLITICAL REPORT: There certainly are House Republicans that are saying there's absolutely no way that a Senate -- a Senate version which includes issues like a guest worker provision would be able to pass in the House.
SYLVESTER: Finding common ground is difficult because of a time crunch. The Senate has only this week to act before it goes on recess for another two weeks. It becomes trickier getting an immigration reform bill the closer to the midterm elections. That has some worried Congress will deadlock.
REP. TOM PRICE (R), GEORGIA: As you know, the national policy as it relates to illegal immigration for the last 20 or 30 years has been one of benign neglect. We can no longer continue that as a national policy. The worst thing that could happen would be for no bill at all to pass.
SYLVESTER: One option supported by both Democrats and Republicans is to pass only a border security bill and leave the more contentious debate of what to do with the illegal aliens in the United States for after the elections.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: President Bush was asked last week in Cancun if he would veto a border security-only bill that did not contain a guest worker program, and, Lou, he did not answer the question -- Lou.
DOBBS: And one of the more important questions to be answered is why there is a greater emphasis on a guest worker program than on securing our borders, particularly four and a half years after 9/11.
Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much, reporting from Washington tonight.
A new CNN opinion poll shows illegal immigration is an important issue for most Americans as the midterm elections approach. More than half of voters surveyed say illegal immigration is either the single most important issue or a very important issue to them. There is a great deal of information in this poll and others.
We've asked Bill Schneider to, as is his expertise, to analyze these polls and tell us his views on what they mean.
Bill, what are these new polls saying about immigration reform so-called?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Lou, the polls on illegal immigration are extremely sensitive to question wording.
For instance, an NBC News-"Wall Street Journal" poll asked about President Bush's proposal to allow illegal immigrants in the United States to apply for legal temporary workers status. Fifty-nine percent opposed the idea when it was identified as President Bush's proposal. Then a "TIME" magazine poll asked about allowing illegal immigrants in the U.S. to register as guest workers "so the government could keep track of them." Seventy-nine percent liked that idea because it sounds like a way to fight terrorism.
Now, a poll of polls does reveal some consistency. Americans are intensely dissatisfied with the nation's border policy. Eighty-two percent say the U.S. is not doing enough to keep illegal immigrants out. Over 60 percent favor taking whatever steps are necessary to guard the border, including U.S. military forces. And a majority favor a 2,000-mile security fence.
Only 25 percent approve of the way President Bush is handling illegal immigration. Fifty-six percent disapprove.
But when you shift from border control to illegal immigrants who are already here, opinion is more sympathetic. Our poll asked, "How much sympathy do you have for illegal immigrants and their families?" Twenty-four percent of Americans said they felt very sympathetic and 46 percent somewhat sympathetic. A total of 70 percent sympathetic.
Now, the "TIME" poll shows a big majority in favor of allowing illegal immigrants already in the U.S. to earn citizenship if they learn English, have a job and pay taxes.
Should they be deported? The public is divided -- Lou.
DOBBS: Interesting. Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
Still ahead, the minutemen are back on the border for -- borders, actually, for one of their largest patrol missions yet. We'll have the latest on these volunteers' new fight against illegal immigration and a fight for border security.
President Bush says illegal aliens need to be drawn out of the shadows, but I have a little news for President Bush. The only thing in the shadow, frankly, at this hour is the truth. We'll have that special report.
And why housewives are part of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez' major militia movement. He wants the largest standing army in the hemisphere. He may well get it.
We'll tell you about that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, a year ago, civilian volunteers calling themselves "minutemen" started patrolling the Arizona desert to help the Border Patrol apprehend illegal aliens along the border with Mexico. President Bush and President Vicente Fox called those volunteers vigilantes, but the Minuteman Project grew. In fact, its mission has now spread to every state on the southern borders and several on the border with Canada as well.
Veteran minutemen say despite their efforts, the border that they are returning to is in even worse shape than a year ago.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The minutemen are back, and this time they are not just patrolling Arizona's border with Mexico. They've spread out to Texas, New Mexico and California. And to Washington, New York, New Hampshire, and Vermont, on the Canadian border.
TOM WILLIAMS, NORTHWEST MINUTEMAN PROJECT: We want people to pay attention that their political leaders aren't doing their job in Washington, D.C., and we want to make them hold a foot to the fire.
WIAN: At least 800 volunteers monitored the borders over the weekend. Project organizers report more than 250 encounters with illegal aliens that led to nearly 60 arrests by the Border Patrol in the first 48 hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We stop up there by Vetter Mountain (ph).
WIAN: Minutemen also say they've rescued six border crossers.
Despite the presence of more Border Patrol agents and resources, conditions on the border have actually deteriorated since the Minuteman Project began a year ago. Illegal crossings are up, so are assaults against law enforcement officers. One of the minutemen founders blames the push for illegal alien amnesty by the White House and Congress.
CHRIS SIMCOX, MINUTEMAN CIVIL DEFENSE CORPS.: The new flow of activity which is at record numbers is a direct result of Senator McCain, Kennedy advocating and basically promising people they are going to not enforce our laws and reward law-breakers. There's a virtual tsunami of humanity coming as a direct result of our government's refusing to enforce our laws.
WIAN: Washington minutemen included this man in a LOU DOBBS TONIGHT camp. What would he do if he spotted an illegal alien?
BILL CRAWFORD, MINUTEMAN VOLUNTEER: I'd follow him directly to the Border Patrol. I do not confront. No, we just report what we see. WIAN: Despite that policy and a yearlong track record of nonviolence, open borders advocates turned out to protest the minutemen's efforts.
BOB WRIGHT, NM MINUTEMEN DIRECTOR: There's never been a single problem with the minutemen. And I think people need to start looking at our record instead of the very foolish accusations that our critics make against us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: In addition to patrolling the borders, minutemen are helping launch another effort. They've declared this Thursday "Bring Your American Flag to Work Day." They are hoping to counter some of the street protests you mentioned earlier, Lou, where open border activists, illegal aliens and others were waving Mexican flags -- Lou.
DOBBS: It's a compelling idea.
Casey, let's set the record straight, because this broadcast, as you and I and our audience knows, prides itself on being factually based in its assertions. How many incidents of violence have there been by members of the Minuteman Project, a group of people carrying out a tradition of volunteerism in this country, the same group that the president of this country or the president of Mexico called vigilantes? How many actual incidents of violence have there been at the border?
WIAN: Despite the claims by the folks on the other side, not one documented instance of a minuteman harming anyone. There was one case in Arizona last year where someone apprehended some illegal aliens at a rest stop off a highway in Arizona. It happened at the same time as the Minuteman Project, but he was not a participant in that project. So the answer, simply, Lou, is zero.
DOBBS: Casey Wian, thank you very much.
The president and some members of Congress who advocate amnesty for illegal aliens in this country often say it will bring illegal aliens "out of the shadows." You've probably heard that rhetoric a lot lately.
In our poll tonight, we'd like to know your thoughts, and we thought we'd ask you about shadows. Do you believe that working men and women in this country and middle class citizens are truly the ones left in the shadows by this Congress and this White House? Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here later.
Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, sinking further into violence and lawlessness over this past weekend. Four more people were killed in drug-related shootings in the Mexican border town just across the Rio Grande from Laredo, Texas.
Seventy-one people have been killed in drug-related violence, Nuevo Laredo, just so far this year. The police chief of Nuevo Laredo resigned two weeks ago after being on the job only eight months. The previous police chief in Nuevo Laredo was gunned down on his first day on the job.
No one has expressed any interest in becoming the new chief of police for Nuevo Laredo so far.
Still ahead, I'll be talking with Senator John Cornyn about the showdown over immigration reform in the U.S. Senate. And, oh, yes, what about border security?
And Venezuelan strongman, Hugo Chavez doesn't think his army's big enough. Now he's adding housewives, students and construction workers to a militia mix, if you will. We'll have that special report.
And dozens die as deadly twisters pound the Mississippi valley. We'll have a live report for you coming up here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Washington tonight becoming increasingly alarmed about the military stability of Latin America, with Hugo Chavez in power in Venezuela and his most recent pronouncements. Chavez is sitting on one of the world's largest supplies of oil. He's also using his nation's oil riches to build an enormous civilian militia force and an army reserve. It is a war of resistance, he says, against the United States, and others fear it is a preparation for war against his internal rivals.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says an American invasion is coming. So he's training civilian militias, giving everyone from housewives to gas station attendants arms training. And he says he'll build an army reserve of a million fighters. Chavez says 20 consecutive Saturdays of training will turn average Venezuelans into resistance fighters.
DANIEL ERIKSON, INTER-AMERICAN DIALOGUE: This would be an important new infusion. Currently, Venezuela only has 80,000 full- time soldiers. So adding one or two million reservists really does boost its military potential.
ROMANS: A State Department spokesman today said the United States is not invading Venezuela.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: I think that spreading that kind of rhetoric isn't really helpful.
ROMANS: That kind of rhetoric is typical Chavismo, as it's called, and some think it's meant more to intimidate his opponents than actually challenge the United States.
REP. DAN BURTON (R), INDIANA: He's using the United States to try to, you know, build up his reputation and his support down there by saying that the gringos up north are going to try to invade his country.
ROMANS: But Congressman Dan Burton says what makes Chavez dangerous, he's Fidel Castro with oil money.
BURTON: If he continues to undermine those fledgling democracies down there and move everything to the left and start nationalizing the oil fields, I think there's a risk of confrontation down the road.
ROMANS: A political confrontation, he says, but so far, the administration has been careful not to engage Chavez' war of words.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: At the same time, Chavez is tightening his grip on the oil infrastructure in his country. Just this weekend, he seized some oil fields from foreign companies, part of his anti-U.S. socialist revolution that he hopes will spread to the rest of Latin America with a little help from the oil money that's buying him some friends there.
DOBBS: Apparently no danger of a counter-U.S. strategy in Latin America. At least imminently.
Christine, thank you.
Christine Romans.
Still ahead, we'll have the latest on possible pending criminal charges against a member of Congress.
Also, we'll be live in Tennessee with the latest for you on the devastating tornadoes there and why this year is turning into one of the most active years ever for tornadoes.
Also tonight, the Senate vote on immigration reform just days away. I'll be talking with Senator John Cornyn of Texas.
And the latest on this country's amnesty agenda. Illegal a aliens are no longer in the shadows. They are openly protesting and demonstrating on our streets.
We'll have that special report next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, in the Midwest tonight, a massive cleanup is under way after powerful thunderstorms and deadly tornadoes set down. At least 27 people were killed across eight states, as those severe storms hit last night. Tennessee, the hardest-hit state, 23 people there died. Three people were killed in Missouri. In Missouri, entire sections of some towns were flattened. Mobile homes were tossed several hundred feet in the storms and century-old brick homes collapsing as well. One person killed in Illinois. A man died in a building collapse when a tornado ripped through the town of Fairview Heights.
Ed Lavandera joins me now from Dyer County, Tennessee, which was devastated by last night's storms. Ed?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is the hardest-hit state and this is the hardest-hit county. Fifteen people in a ten- mile area were killed here last night, just as the sun was setting and the tornado ripped a 25-mile swathe through two counties here in Western Tennessee.
Twenty-three people in these two counties were killed last night. Just a short while ago, I rode through much of the devastated area with the Sheriff here in Dyer County, and I asked him at one point what it was he thought that killed most of the people in these storms, and he kind of stopped for a second and then said, with that police expression, blunt force trauma, which means the debris that was flying around at such a rapid rate around here last night, is what caused the deaths of many of these people. A devastating blow.
The tornado touched down here about six miles west of where we are, so it did not give the residents of this area a lot of time to react. But as many as 1,800 homes and businesses in this two-county area were destroyed by this tornado. They said it was a massive, massive tornado. Anywhere between a quarter to a half-mile wide. Lou?
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much. Ed Lavandera.
Tornado activity all across the United States has been well above normal. Three hundred and forty tornadoes have been reported across the country since the beginning of January. More than three times as many tornadoes compared to last year at this time.
The average number of tornadoes between January 1st and April 3rd is only 85. Meteorologist blaming this above-average tornado activity on unusually warm, moist flows of air from the Gulf of Mexico into the midwestern part of the country.
Hawaii is doing its best to cope with record rainfall. Nearly seven and a half feet of rain has fallen -- that's right, seven and a half feet of rain -- has fallen in parts of Hawaii. The downpour leaving streets flooded, freeways closed. Honolulu's airport has received more rain in the first three months of this year than in all of 2005.
Colorado officials are cleaning up tonight after a massive wildfire near Denver. The fire burned through 1,600 acres and hundreds of people evacuated from their homes before the fire was brought under control. The region suffering from a prolonged drought. Officials say the blaze began accidentally. More now on the showdown in the Senate over immigration reform. The Senate is deeply divided over how to reform immigration laws and to establish border security. Tonight, Senate Republicans are trying to minimize their differences on the issue. Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the question is whether those differences are going to result in total deadlock in the Senate. Republicans in the leadership here and at the White House still insist that they want to get something done on this critical issue before the end of this year, even though many think that is going to be pretty hard, given all of the election-year pressures on this particular issue.
Now, the Senate is debating this issue as we speak. They had some preliminary votes on it, but the big issue, the big issue, that divides Republicans, the guest-worker program. That is still big -- very up in the air. If anything, it will be a vote at the end of the week.
The Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, made clear over the weekend, he does want to get this issue done by the end of the week. He is floating some ideas for compromise, but many people think that is going to be very difficult and there's a growing sentiment that perhaps they will not be able to finish this in the Senate by the end of the week, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Dana Bash, from Capitol Hill.
This weekend, during our SPECIAL REPORT from Cancun, we asked you to vote on our poll. That question -- who do you believe has the greatest influence over U.S. immigration policy? The results were overwhelming. Seventy-five percent of you responding that corporate America, in your judgment, has the greatest influence on U.S. immigration policy.
Interestingly enough, only four percent said President Bush himself.
The Senate is only days away from its vote on immigration reform. If things go as it now appears they will. Congress granted amnesty to illegal aliens back in 1986, despite warnings it would only encourage more illegal immigration. Senator Ted Kennedy as much as acknowledged the impact of the last amnesty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: In the 1980s, the rate of illegal immigration was 40,000 people a year. Today it's half a million.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And that is a conservative estimate. Joining me now is Senator John Cornyn. We appreciate you being here, senator.
You met today with the liaison and Karl Rove over at the White House. What did you-all figure out?
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, I'm not sure we figured out much. Other than that it's important that this debate provide an opportunity for people of -- with all sorts of different views to express those views, to file amendments, to have a full debate, and then to vote.
If there was a pressure to prematurely jam this bill through, I think there are going to be an awful lot of frustrated senators. And I think the country will have been denied the full and fair debate we really need in order to try to build a national consensus.
DOBBS: I have said on this broadcast, senator, as you know, something that probably resonates with you, because you and Senator Kyl put together, what I consider to be, at least, personally, the most sensible legislation advanced. I'm not suggesting it's perfect or -- nothing ever is. But it seems to me to be the most practical and sensible and rational legislation.
But I've said here, how in the world can our Congress and our Senate even talk about reforming immigration if the United States government can't control immigration and how in the world can we control immigration if we can't first establish secure boarders? Can you tell me what's wrong with that logic?
CORNYN: I think your logic is -- is perfect. The truth is, that the federal government has a credibility problem when it comes to our commitment to deal with the issue of illegal immigration. We are a nation of immigrants, obviously. We're proud of it. We've all come from somewhere, but we're also a nation of laws.
Frankly, I think the American people were sold a bill of goods in 1986 with the amnesty, which everyone acknowledges is a failure, and I thin they do not want to be fooled again.
DOBBS: Well, when I hear about Senator Cornyn, Senator Kyl going up to meet with Senator Frist, with Karl Rove and the White House liaison, congressional liaison, I get a little concerned, because I know what they're about. What they're about is a guest-worker program, it's full amnesty.
This is the same group of people who have the president mouthing the words, willing workers and willing employees when they're talking about importing poverty from Mexico. They are talking about the desperate need in this country for illegal alien work forces when in point of fact nothing could be farther from the truth.
They're talking about we need uneducated illegal aliens brought into this country illegally, obviously, to replace aging baby boomers who are highly educated, highly affluent, and highly productive. How in the world did we get to such a distorted mess based on this debate?
DOBBS: Well, it was simply neglect over the last 20 years, and the federal government failed to step up and do the employer verification, employer sanctions, and you rightly point out that the solution is not a repetition of what happened then but, rather, something different: border security, interior enforcement, work site verification.
Ultimately, I think, everyone recognizes that the final solution here is going to be worked out in a conference committee, once the Senate passes a bill and tries to work out its differences with the House, which as you know, took a different and more focused approach on border security.
But, surely, we can rise to the challenge here and surely we can come up with something that reflects our values, both as a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws.
DOBBS: That may be true. But there is no -- can you tell us, Senator, I mean, where is the indication that there's any rationality or honesty in this debate. I mean, you have, for crying out loud, the president of the United States mouthing these aphorisms that are unconnected to reality, willing workers and working employees.
We're watching corporate America dominating both the Democratic and the Republican parties and exploiting illegal labor. We're watching labor unions seeking more illegal aliens into this country, and the principal people who are hurt by this are working men and women in this country, and particularly at the lowest-income levels.
CORNYN: What I find in my state, Lou, in the great state of Texas, talking to my constituents, one-third of whom are Hispanic. Many of them feel most in jeopardy because they are legal immigrants, but yet, they are competing with jobs with people who come to the country in violation of the laws and people who are willing to work for less money. So they drive down their wages. So this is something that crosses ethnic and other lines, and should cross across party lines and challenge us to rise to our very best.
DOBBS: There have been threats of filibusters. Let me ask you this -- I'll ask you only to speak for yourself, rather than your co- sponsor of the legislation. Are you going to demand border security, real border security, and why should anyone have any faith in anything this administration or this congress says about enforcing the law when this administration and this congress has tolerated the United States government ignoring every law on immigration and border security?
CORNYN: Well, I'm certainly not going to vote for any cloture on any bill or close off debate or vote for any bill that provides an amnesty, that does not step up and provide border security, which is national security.
And which doesn't require bona fide verification of eligibility of prospective workers at the workplace and sanctions for those who hire people illegally. I think otherwise we are just going through the motions and really not serious. And I'm serious about trying to find a solution to this problem.
DOBBS: How about -- let me ask you just a crazy idea. How about making it a felony for an employer to hire illegal aliens?
CORNYN: Lou, there was three -- I think three employer-sanction cases in the 20 years since 1986. And the reason why employers say they are unable to determine eligibility is because OF fake documents that are presented by prospective workers.
And laws that prohibit those employers from asking whether that person is bona fide holder of those cards. You know, there's just so many problems with the status quo that I don't think all the blame is -- can be placed fairly at the feet of any certain group. But frankly, I think there's a lot of people that share that blame.
DOBBS: You and I certainly agree on that, Senator Cornyn. And we appreciate you being here. We look forward to watching the process, no matter how displeasing on occasion and frustrating that process may be. We look forward to representation on Capitol Hill working for the working men and women in this company. Are you hopeful it will happen?
CORNYN: I am hopeful, and we hope it will happen. We are trying to help. We're actually trying to move things in the direction I think that you and I and the rest of the country would be proud of.
DOBBS: Well you and Senator Kyl have got an interesting stake in this. It will be fascinating to watch. Senator Cornyn, thanks for being here.
CORNYN: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Senator John Cornyn.
Now let's listen to some of your thoughts.
Mary in Virginia saying: I think if the immigrants, legal and illegal, want to speak their own language and fly their own flag, they should -- just in their own country.
And David in Virginia: Lou, I'll tell you one thing. The wrong group of people is marching in the streets demanding that our laws be changed. It should be the working middle class that is marching instead of illegal immigrants.
And I think you've got a great point.
Pat in Oregon said: Dear Lou, I find it amusing that the Mexicans think that they should take back California, Arizona, Texas, et cetera. Hasn't it occurred to them that they would then be back in Mexico? They need to take their demonstrations to Mexico and demand a decent life there.
And Richard in Michigan: Lou, I have no problem with the Mexicans wanting to reclaim the southwestern United States, so long as they take George Bush with it.
Gail in California: Lou, the greatest dilemma for the United States government seems to be in deciding which we will become, the most eastern province of Communist China or the most northern state of the United States of Mexico.
Chuck in Illinois: Homeland security without border security? I guess it fits in a representative democracy without representation. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. We will share them with our viewers, and we'll have many more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast tonight.
U.S. Capitol Police have taken the first steps to obtain an arrest warrant for Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. The congresswoman scuffled with a Capitol Police officer last week at the entrance to a House office building. The officer didn't recognize her as a member of Congress. Congresswoman McKinney talked with Wolf Blitzer on "THE SITUATION ROOM" earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CYNTHIA MCKINNEY (D), GEORGIA: There are only 14 African- American women members of Congress. So I don't understand what it is about my face that certain members of the Capitol Hill Police Department can't remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Congresswoman McKinney isn't saying whether or not she hit the police officer.
Still ahead here, I'll be talking with Congresswoman Candice Miller. She hasn't hit anybody, and she says illegal aliens shouldn't be shaping the districts of the United States Congress.
Also, the amnesty agenda. Its supporters say we need to bring illegal aliens out of the shadows, but have they really been hiding? And what are those shadows really falling upon? We'll have that special report for you, coming up here next. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Supporters of amnesty for illegal aliens are trying to make their case by citing a need to bring illegal aliens, quote, "out of the shadows." They evoke images of a furtive population fearfully cowering in the dark in the United States. But that's not exactly what we've been seeing in the streets of Los Angeles and other major cities. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's become an article of truth.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe it is important to bring people out of the shadows of American society.
TUCKER: The illegals, they say, are hiding.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: It has all of those difficulties of being illegal: fear, furtiveness, a hidden nature. Bring it out in the open.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: An estimated 11 million to 12 million people living in the shadows in every state in our country.
TUCKER: But in rallies once again this weekend, illegal aliens and their supporters openly marched, exercising their constitutional right of free assembly in a country many entered illegally.
They are hardly in hiding. Popular media has noticed their influence for some time now. Illegal immigrants are a coveted marketing group. Banks actively court their business, setting up accounts, giving them individual taxpayer numbers, allowing them to get mortgages and enjoy the privilege of homeownership. The current rallies only serve to underline the lack of shadows.
REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: If I wanted to come out of the shadows myself, I'd pick up a flag and march in the streets of Los Angeles in front of a lot of television networks, perhaps, and maybe even advertise in it advance and send out a network blast e-mail across a Web page. This is anything but in the shadows.
TUCKER: And while their legal status is illegal, they enjoy a number of privileges. Free schooling for their children. Their children are eligible for social welfare and for in-state tuition rates at state colleges in nine states, a privilege not available to citizens from other states.
They are eligible for federal housing assistance. Hospitals must provide emergency room medical care, even if they are unable to pay or have no health insurance. And they can obtain drivers licenses. Ten states currently require no proof of legal residence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: They can also choose to be politically active and that participation is not limited to marching in the street. They can, if they choose, choose to contribute to the campaigns of the politicians that they support. Lou?
DOBBS: Well, can they vote?
TUCKER: Well, not yet.
DOBBS: Well, that's an open question as well. I just love watching President Bush say, "Come out of the shadows." He gets that kind of sincere, concerned look, you know, and a number of the other legislators trying to advance this agenda of corporate Americas.
It's mind-boggling that there's not even a suggestion, not even a slight blush as they say these absolutely incorrect, untrue things. But that's politics, I suppose, even though it affects tens of millions of working men and women in this country and the entire middle-class. But that's a minor consideration, I suppose, in Washington, D.C. these days.
Bill Tucker, thank you, sir.
A reminder now to vote in our poll, do you believe that working men and women in this country and middle-class citizens are truly the ones left in the shadow by Congress and this White House? Yes or no? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. The results coming up here in minutes.
But coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with wolf Blitzer. Wolf, tell us about it.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. Lots going on. Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in "THE SITUATION ROOM." She may be facing arrest after allegedly scuffling with Capitol Hill police. We have an exclusive interview with the congresswoman.
Plus, plane crash survivors. Find out how everyone made it out of this wreck alive and why the U.S. military is calling it a miracle.
And Al Gore's green attack, he's taking on President Bush over global warming, but is he planning another run for the White House?
And how to grow your own organs. A new report out on possibly life-saving new treatment. All that, Lou, coming up right at the top of the hour.
DOBBS: You know, Wolf, I was just wondering what you think. I mean, the congresswoman and the Capitol police, it looks like they might have both handled that situation a little bit better, don't you think?
BLITZER: Well, our viewers are going to be able to hear her side of the story. We're trying to get the side of the story from Capitol Hill Police, but there's no doubt there was an incident there. And it's likely, Lou, there are going to be charges filed against this congresswoman by federal prosecutors, so this story may only just be beginning.
DOBBS: Yes, it usually does just begin when common sense doesn't assert itself in a situation like that. We thank you very much, Wolf Blitzer, we'll be looking forward to it.
Still ahead here, we'll have more of your thoughts. And your state could be losing seats in Congress because of illegal immigration. Imagine that. One Congresswoman is aware of, wants to change it and wants to make certain no one is stealing your voice in Congress. She's our guest here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, according to law, illegal aliens can't vote. But they can determine who votes where. They can determine how many congressional representatives your state has in Washington. The 14th amendment to the constitution says representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, persons, not citizens.
And that means states with high numbers of illegal aliens are getting congressional seats at the expense of states with fewer illegal aliens but more citizens. Congresswoman Candice Miller, among the very first to deal with this inequity, and she's introduced a constitutional amendment to change this, joining us here tonight.
Congresswoman, thanks for being here.
REP. CANDICE MILLER (R), MICHIGAN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: What is the progress of your resolution to deal with this issue? It's one that no one even -- almost no one. We've talked before here. We've reported on it because of your efforts. But is there any pickup here on Capitol Hill?
MILLER: Well, you know, it's a slow go. And in some ways, I guess, that's appropriate, because you shouldn't be able to change the constitution just very easily. It should be a very difficult thing, and it is in this case. But we have almost 40 sponsors on my resolution. That's the House Joint Resolution 53.
And as well the Ohio statehouse had a hearing just last month and have passed a resolution in favor of this. And we're hoping to have the same thing happen in the Senate in Michigan. So some of the states, particularly those that are about due to lose additional congressional representation, are certainly starting to notice.
DOBBS: What you're saying is that states, for example, like California, with -- or Arizona even, with a heavy population of illegal aliens are probably getting a disproportionate number of seats in Congress because of the number of illegal aliens living within their states?
Give us a sense of how many seats you think might be in play here. The number now is 11 million to 12 million in the country. Others have it at 20 million, the study last year. What's the possibility as far as you're concerned?
MILLER: Well, the possibility -- I will tell you specifically in the last census, in the 2000 census, the state of California actually acquired an additional six congressional seats based on about 5.5 million non-citizens, principally illegal aliens. And, you know, there's six seats right there. That would have been nine seats in play.
So a number states lost members of Congress because of illegal aliens, which is really counterintuitive. It goes against what the founding fathers thoughts of one man, one vote. It's an issue of basic fairness, and it's one thing for a state like Michigan or Ohio or Montana, Pennsylvania or whatever to lose seats in Congress because of a natural shift of American citizens.
DOBBS: Right.
MILLER: It's another thing to lose congressional representation because of illegal aliens.
DOBBS: Why do you suppose the national media is not picking up on this critically important issue?
MILLER: You know, I think it's really a matter of education. I very much appreciate your interest in it, because if people are first made aware of it, even members of Congress seem to be totally stunned that this is actually happening. And, again, with the next census coming up, there's going to be more of a shift.
DOBBS: Congresswoman Candice Miller, we thank you for continuing to educate us. We appreciate it and thanks for being here tonight.
MILLER: Thank you so much.
DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of our poll. More of your thoughts and a look at what is coming up tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In tonight's poll, overwhelming, 98 percent of you say working men and women in this country and middle-class citizens are truly the ones left in the shadows by this Congress and this White House.
More of your thoughts now, Mike in Florida writing in to say, "Lou, as soon as the United States passes a law for the working-class Americans to be treated as guest workers in the United States, let me know. It sounds sweet."
And Carolyn in Oregon, "Corporate America would find a way to protect our borders overnight, if there was big money involved. Unfortunately, the big profits from illegal immigrant cheap labor overshadows the need to protect our citizens."
Charlie in Florida, "Lou, of course, Mexico has been successful at keeping Central Americans out of Mexico. Those Central Americans were on their way here, and Fox doesn't want competition for the dollars his citizens send home."
And James in Montana, "Lou, never mind sending a copy of your book to the president, send it to me. Send him a dictionary, so he can learn the meaning of such terms as illegal and amnesty."
Ron in California, "Lou, President Bush should call his guest worker amnesty program by its real name, no illegal alien left behind."
We love hearing your thoughts. Send them to us at loudobbs.com. Each of whose email is read here receives a copy of my book "Exporting America." Thanks for being with us tonight. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" starts right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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