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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Senate Deadlock Over Immigration, Debate or Deception?; The Amnesty Agenda; DeLay Decides To Resign; Protests Over French Job Laws Continue; Pete King Interview; Illegal Immigrant Advocates Set Boycott For May 1st
Aired April 04, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, U.S. senators struggling to break the political deadlock over our illegal immigration crisis. Will these senators be defending the integrity of our borders and our laws? Or are they about to give away amnesty to millions of illegal aliens?
We'll have the live report for you from Capitol Hill.
Also tonight, the Bush White House appears to be manipulating the national debate over illegal immigration and our border security crisis. Is the Bush administration trying to deceive or debate the issues?
We'll have a special report for you.
Also, members of Congress tonight demanding much tighter security to protect our ports from radical Islamist terrorists. The chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, Congressman Pete King, today held a hearing on the issue. He's our special guest here tonight.
And I'll be talking with three of the country's top radio hosts to find out what their listeners are saying about, among other issues, illegal immigration and the war on our middle class.
Those stories and a great deal more, here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Tuesday, April 4th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
We begin with the confrontation in the Senate over proposals for a guest worker program, an amnesty program for illegal aliens. Republicans today held a series of top-level meetings trying to end the deadlock in the Senate on the issue. Advocates of a guest worker program want to give illegal aliens a green card after they've worked in the country for six years. Other senators say the proposal is nothing less than amnesty.
And Andrea Koppel reports from Capitol Hill -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Lou, after the last the meeting of Republicans in the -- in the office of the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, with some of the key Republicans players involved in these negotiations, they agreed that they would try to put on paper one of the ideas, one of the possible compromises that's been floated by Senator Martinez of Florida and Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, even though the reaction by many Republicans during various meetings today has been somewhat lukewarm.
The key sticking points continue to be what to do about the fate of those 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants currently living in the United States and what to do about future immigrants who want to come here, the so-called guest worker program.
Now, earlier in the day the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter, Republican of Pennsylvania, who was one of the cosponsors of a piece of bipartisan legislation that made it through the Judiciary Committee last week, still sounded a somewhat optimistic note.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I think the logjam will be broken and I think we will move ahead. And the leader has said he's going to keep us here until we finish a bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: But Democrats are playing hardball, and they are saying there is absolutely no reason for compromise, and they're not allowing any debate on the floor on amendments.
Here's Senator Harry Reid, the Democratic minority leader.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: We do not need a compromise. It's in our bill. We have a bill that's bipartisan, came out of the Senate Judiciary Committee on a bipartisan basis. It covers strong, secure borders, a guest worker program, and a path to legalization for the people about whom you just spoke.
We don't need a compromise. It's here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: The net result, a bit of a stalemate. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have the 60 votes that would be necessary to cut off debate and move to a floor vote. And as you know, Lou, the Senate majority leader has hoped to have this thing wrapped up by the end of the week.
As one Republican staffer told me, he said, "We have come closer now than we have in 20 years. But the momentum just isn't there right now" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Andrea, thank you very much.
Andrea Koppel from Capitol Hill.
One leading senator today declared that it is time to take action on immigration reform and to establish control of our borders. But Senator Larry Craig said it is impossible for anyone to say exactly how many illegal aliens are actually in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LARRY CRAIG (R), IDAHO: We no longer can, nor should we tolerate, within our boundaries whatever that number is, seven million, eight million, nine million. If you want to listen to Lou Dobbs on television, he'll say it's 20 million. Lou Dobbs doesn't know. Nor do we know exactly how many undocumented foreign nationals are here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Craig is absolutely correct. On this broadcast we use the estimate of 20 million illegal aliens. That's an estimate provided by a study by Bear Stearns last year. Senator Craig, as I said, correct, there's absolutely no way for anyone right now in the United States government to know exactly how many illegal aliens are in this country. And that shows that even this debate is based on information that is, at best, close to approximation, but only that.
The national debate over our illegal immigration crisis is intensifying as both sides in the argument try to win political advantage. Some say the White House is going even farther by manipulating the language in an effort to control the debate.
Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's stated by the Bush administration as fact.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are people in our country doing work that Americans will not do.
ROMANS: This administration tightly controlling language.
ROSEMARY JENKS, NUMBERSUSA: The White House absolutely does not want a true debate on immigration. Of course, we have willing workers and we have a whole lot of willing workers who are unemployed or underemployed who can't find full-time jobs even though they would like them.
ROMANS: Today there are more than seven million unemployed workers in this country. Nearly 1.4 million have been out of work for more than six months. Millions of available legal workers, even as the White House claims there are some jobs not fit for Americans.
But Pew Hispanic Center research shows Americans and legal immigrants hold the majority of jobs facing competition from illegal workers in agriculture, cleaning, construction and food preparation. In fact, even as the restaurant lobby complains about a worker shortage, wages there have been falling.
Simple economic polls. If there is a true worker shortage, wages rise.
Over the last five years, restaurant wages have been stagnant, at best. And fast food wages have tumbled almost 4 percent.
Those falling wages are a clear economic declaration of too many workers, not too few. And legalizing illegal laborers will drive down wages in those careers even more. So found Harvard economist George Borjas As immigration swelled the labor force from 1980 to 2000, Americans' wages fell 4 percent, twice that for Americans without a high school diploma. Borjas research finds that a guest worker program for illegals will hurt legal immigrants and less educated American workers the most.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: But you won't hear the White House talking about falling real wages and economic costs of illegal immigration. The focus there sharply on the guest worker program, Lou, at all costs.
DOBBS: And as we review the bidding here, and obviously we're focusing on the Bush administration because it is the president's guest worker proposal that is driving the activity in the Senate, the fact is, the facts are being ignored here. Too many workers, not too few.
The victims in illegal immigration, this crisis, are those Americans working at the lowest end of the wage scale. And, of course, middle class working men and women in this country who are providing, through their tax dollars, for the social services, health care, education, across the board.
ROMANS: Willing workers, willing employers. What about the willing American workers and the willing American middle class? You don't hear him talk about that.
DOBBS: The 280 million legal citizens, as best we can estimate.
Christine Romans, thank you.
When it comes to the debate over illegal immigration, the biggest deception of all is the way politicians are using the word "amnesty."
Lisa Sylvester has that part of the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Public polls show most Americans adamantly oppose giving amnesty to illegal aliens. At the center of the Senate debate is the question, what is amnesty? President Bush has defined it as becoming automatically legal, bypassing the citizenship process.
BUSH: I believe if someone has been here in our country illegally, they should not get at the head of the line if they want to become a citizen.
SYLVESTER: Senator Ted Kennedy says his plan that would legalize 12 million-plus illegal aliens and grant them eventual citizenship is not amnesty, it's earned legalization.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We should give them that opportunity not by offering an amnesty, but by allowing them to earn, and I repeat, earn, the right to remain.
SYLVESTER: But many of Kennedy's colleagues disagree.
SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: Some in the Senate like to call it something other than amnesty, earned adjustment, or earned citizenship to try to distinguish it from what Congress has done in the past. That in fairness, what the Senate is being asked to consider today should likewise be called amnesty.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: At minimum, this represents a repetition of what happened in 1986, which everyone acknowledges was an amnesty. And so, to me, by definition this is an amnesty as well.
SYLVESTER: Webster's Dictionary says amnesty is "an act of clemency by an authority as a government by which pardon is granted especially to a group of individuals."
STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: What does the proposed legislation do? Everybody who's here illegally gets to stay and ultimately is offered citizenship. In other words, we're not going to enforce the law, we're going to change the law and accommodate the 12 million illegal aliens. Now, that sure sounds like an amnesty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Senator Kennedy has argued that because the illegal aliens have to pay a $2,000 fine, pay back taxes and learn English, that they have earned legalization. Well, that's a small price to pay for something so precious as U.S. citizenship -- Lou.
DOBBS: And so amnesty turns out to be amnesty. Is that it?
SYLVESTER: In this -- in this definition it's pretty clear that what they're talking about is amnesty, but they're going through all these motions and jumping all through these hoops to try to redefine the word "amnesty."
DOBBS: I think the audience -- I know the audience of this broadcast understands that the more particularly our elected officials torture the language, the greater the reason for their doing so.
Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.
That brings us to our poll question tonight. The question is, do you believe terms and phrases such as "guest worker", "jobs Americans won't do" and "matching willing workers with willing employers" are deceptive, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here later in the broadcast.
Another example tonight of our failed immigration and border security policies. Government officials saying nearly 40,000 illegal aliens from communist China are awaiting deportation from the United States. But until now, the federal government has been unable to send those illegal aliens back to China because the communist Chinese government refuses to allow them to return.
And the Homeland Security secretary, Michael Chertoff, well, he's now reached what is being styled a preliminary agreement with Beijing to send some of those illegal aliens home. However -- and there often seems to be a "however" -- the Homeland Security Department is not saying exactly how many of those 40,000 illegal aliens will actually be allowed by the Chinese communist government to be returned to China. We will, however, keep you posted.
Up next here, Congressman Tom DeLay's stunning fall from political power is now complete. We'll have a special report on what DeLay's sudden resignation means for the Republican Party.
Also tonight, American students are being suspended from high schools all because they choose to show their support for the American flag.
We'll have that report.
And this is Paris in the springtime. French student protests widening over a law that could create new jobs for French students.
Well be live in Paris with a report for you and the very latest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Amidst a widening scandal and mounting legal troubles, former House majority leader Tom DeLay today announced he will resign from Congress. DeLay's announcement comes just days after his former chief of staff pleaded guilty to taking bribes in an influence- pedaling scheme, and DeLay himself faces trial on money laundering charges in a separate case. DeLay's resignation triggered swift and sharp response from both sides of the aisle.
Dana Bash has the story from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the end, he bowed to political reality, but not without one more blast of trademark Tom DeLay defiance.
REP. TOM DELAY (R), TEXAS: I refuse to allow liberal Democrats an opportunity to steal the seat with a negative personal campaign. BASH: His resignation was rooted in the vote-counting skills that made him the legendary master of the House, a personal calculation this time he could lose his own re-election and contribute to losing the 12-year-old GOP majority in the House he worked so hard to win and maintain.
DELAY: I started looking at it. We ran a poll. It showed that I had a 50-50 chance of winning.
BASH: DeLay was forced out of his leadership position seven months ago after being indicted in Texas for allegedly breaking state campaign finance laws. Since then, two former close aides pleaded guilty to corruption charges in the Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal. Federal prosecutors have not charged DeLay with any wrongdoing in that case. He insists he'll be vindicated.
DELAY: I have no fear whatsoever about any investigation into me or my personal or professional activities.
BASH: But Democrats who have made him the poster child of their campaign against what they called the GOP culture of corruption are sticking with their message.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: So this isn't about -- just about Tom DeLay, although he's the ringleader. It's about the Republicans in Congress who enabled and benefited from this corruption.
BASH: His nickname, "The Hammer," came from a bare-knuckles demand for party loyalty, not only from lawmakers, but lobbyists and interest groups forced to bend to his will.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: He had an uncanny ability to get things done.
BASH: He orchestrated his farewell with the organizational prowess that made him one of Washington's most powerful and feared men.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And DeLay says he feels liberated by his decision to leave Congress. Privately, many Republicans say they do, too. Fair or not, they say that he helped put a cloud of scandal over the GOP that they are eager to get from under with their former leader gone -- Lou.
DOBBS: Is there any consequence here for Tom DeLay in terms of his pensions and other perks for a congressman who has reached the level of power that he has and has served in Congress as long as he has?
BASH: That's a gad question. I don't think the answer to that is yes. I think that he doesn't have a consequence because he is -- is leaving by his own volition. He has been in office for 21 years, so he will have whatever pension is afforded him for somebody who has served that long -- Lou. DOBBS: All right. Thank you very much.
Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
Tom DeLay isn't the only Republican implicated in this widening influence-pedaling scandal in Washington. Plea agreements by Jack Abramoff and his business partner say Congressman Bob Ney took bribes from them. Ney introduced legislation benefiting a tribe represented by Abramoff after receiving $32,000 from the tribe.
And Senator Conrad Burns, who's up for re-election this year, is being challenged by members of his own party. Burns received $150,000 from Abramoff clients. He also had a lobbyist from Abramoff's firm on his Senate staff.
House Republicans are turning their attention to another lawmaker's problems. Two GOP congressman are introducing a resolution commending the Capitol Police force for their professionalism. That after a Capitol Police officer scuffled with Democratic Congressman Cynthia McKinney at a House office building last week.
That incident occurred after Capitol Police prevented her from entering the building. They have referred the matter to prosecutors for criminal charges, saying that she struck the police officer. The congresswoman says she is simply the victim of racial profiling.
Senator Mary Landrieu is threatening to block consideration of all presidential appointees until the White House delivers aid to the Gulf Coast. The senior senator from Louisiana wants a comprehensive plans for levees, flood control and coastal restoration and more than $6 billion additional to pay for it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARY LANDRIEU (D), LOUISIANA: Until significant progress is made, I will be compelled to use the power of my office as a senator to hold all executive nominations until we can get a response from the administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The senator says this is a life-and-death issue for Gulf Coast residents. Hurricane season begins June 1st.
Still ahead, police battle protesters in Paris as more than a million people take to the streets across France protesting a new labor law.
And more schools taking the unprecedented step of banning the American flag. Hard to believe, but it's happening.
We'll have a special report for you coming right up, along with a great deal more.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Riot police in Paris tonight arrested hundreds of demonstrators demonstrating in opposition to a new labor law. Earlier, an estimated million people took part in peaceful protests across the country.
Jim Bittermann now reporting to us from Paris.
Jim, give us your best estimate on the number of demonstrators and protesters in Paris itself.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paris itself, according to the national police, there were about 85,000 protesters on the street. And across the country, as you mentioned, about a million. That would make this demonstration today about the same as a week ego. The organizers of the protest demonstrations today wanted to at least hit the numbers that they did last week to show the government that they really do oppose this law.
Now, as happened last week, the same thing again this week. When it ended in the big square where it ended, there was trouble, because in these demonstrations often there are troublemakers who march in with the crowd and wait for the end of the march and then use it as an opportunity to confront police. And the same thing happened today.
They pulled up paving stones and threw them at police. They threw bottles and all sorts of other things at the police.
The police were amazingly restrained. Only wading into the crowd to arrest people. There were -- there was some tear gas, but it was very -- it wasn't really clear exactly where the tear gas came from, whether it was the police or the demonstrators.
As you mentioned, there were about 600 people arrested, which brings to almost 3,500 the number of people arrested over the last three weeks in demonstrations here -- Lou.
DOBBS: What is the expectation, quickly, for Tomorrow, Jim, if you would?
BITTERMANN: Well, there are some meetings scheduled between members of parliament and the heads of the unions, but the heads of the unions are sticking very firm to their goal, which is to get rid of this law entirely. So it may not come to very much -- Lou.
DOBBS: A law that we should recap makes it possible for employers to fire at will employees 26 years -- under the age of 26 years.
Thank you very much, Jim Bittermann, reporting tonight from Paris for us.
Now let's turn and look at some of your thoughts.
Buddy in Nevada writing in to say, "Lou, I have to admire Mexico's President Fox. He stands up for what is best for his country and don't take no for an answer. I just wish that our president would do the same for our country."
Brian in South Carolina, "Lou, why is the term 'illegal' almost never used when referencing illegal aliens? Migrant, undocumented or soon to be guest worker are use. Can I at least call them uninvited guests without being called racist or insensitive?"
David in Virginia, "Lou, President Bush continues to push his guest worker amnesty program for illegal immigrants using the phrase 'they will have to go back to the back of the line.' I say, hell no, unless the back of the line begins in Mexico."
Chris in Texas, "Lou, while our representatives are debating immigration reform, our borders remain wide open. I have yet to hear of any plan or idea on how we're going to adequately secure our borders. Until we regain control of our borders, any legislation passed on immigration will be, at best, ineffective."
Mark in Oklahoma, "Lou, my daughter is a freshman in college. She is undecided about declaring a major until we see the Bush list of the jobs that Americans won't do."
Send us your thoughts to LouDobbs.com. We'll have many more of your e-mails coming up here later in the brought cast.
Still ahead, Congressman Pete King will be my guest. He'll tell us about his efforts to finally secure this nation's ports.
And illegal aliens and their supporters planning an economic boycott. They will once again try to pressure this nation's elected officials into passing amnesty. We'll have that special report.
And why students across the country are being punished and even suspended for flying and displaying the American flag at school.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Capitol Hill today, the House Homeland Security Committee held hearings on the Safe Port Act. The legislation requires the government the take specific steps to improve port security.
The chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee joins us now, Congressman Pete King.
Good to have you with us, Mr. Chairman.
REP. PETE KING (R), NEW YORK: Lou, it's always great to be with you.
DOBBS: The hearings today moving forward. Are you confident that we're going to see real port security established as a result of what you're doing?
KING: I think I am, Lou. Again, it's not going to be perfect. We're going to make really very significant strides forward.
What I want to do -- and actually, Dan Lungren and Jane Harman are very good partners in this -- we want to move the whole inspection procedure back. I want to have, for instance, as much of the containers investigated overseas as possible, before they even get on the ocean, before they get here, to insist that we have that type inspection and screening done at the overseas ports and then have follow-up inspections at our own ports. But it has to be done overseas.
DOBBS: But Congressman, wasn't that supposed to already be in place?
KING: Yes. And that's why this bill is going to insist. We're putting actual deadlines in the bill to insist that it be done.
For instance, the whole idea of worker identification cards, which I think are essential, because we don't know who is working at our ports -- and I can tell you there are a number of ports around the country where there are illegal immigrants working, where there's people from terrorists-type countries are working at our ports, and that's because the Department of Homeland Security has not come up with the identification card that was required. We're putting in strict mandates for all of this. It has to be done.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, let me ask you this. You and the other members of that committee and your counterparts on the Senate side, at what point are you going to say -- let me rephrase it -- are you going to say to the Department of Homeland Security, "It's time to take the title of your department seriously"?
KING: Lou, I think we're doing that with this bill, because, unfortunately, you know, the department, it's 22 departments and agencies, 180,000 employees, it's going in different directions. They have to get focused. They have to realize that it's more important, not just our flowcharts and our organization charts and not just to have a time schedule, there has to be results and that's what we're looking for here. That's one of the reasons for this legislation. We're mandating results by certain dates.
DOBBS: Congressman, let's turn quickly to immigration reform, or amnesty, whatever you want to style it as. Senator McCain is being quoted this evening as saying that he doesn't think that they have the votes to push through the guest-worker program in the Senate. What's your reading?
KING: I hope that's the case, because no matter what they call it, I'm a good friend of John McCain, but this is amnesty, and the American people won't stand for it. We have to show we can secure the borders. We have to secure the borders. We have to dry up the job market that's going to illegals. We do that by having strict employer sanctions.
To me, strict enforcement of the border, strict employer sanctions, we would draw drastically cut into the 11 million illegals that are here. If we want to look it a again in 18 months or two years, that's one thing. But we shouldn't do anything until we secure those borders and convince the American people that we can secure them.
Otherwise, it's a crisis of confidence in our government that goes beyond the issue of illegal immigration. People look at the broken borders and say if you can't even control the borders how do you ever hope to win a war in Iraq. How do you ever hope to make economic progress if you can't do the most basic responsibility of the government and that's to control its borders.
DOBBS: Congressman Pete King, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. Thanks for being here.
High school students all across the country tonight in various places are being prevented from demonstrating their support for the American flag after last week's illegal alien protest.
In some instances students have actually been suspended for bringing the American flag to their schools. At the high school in Rose City, Texas, students have been banned for bringing both Mexican and American flags to their school in the interests of keeping peace, as the administrators put it, after last week's demonstration.
A student who brought an American flag to school was suspended. At Longmont, Colorado, Skyline High School, at least one student was suspended for bringing an American flag to class. The principal at the school said the U.S. flag intimidates students of Mexican decent. He says, and we quote, "Brandishing a flag at other ethnic groups, we're just not going to allow that. The abuse of the flag is misguided patriotism."
A ban on wearing the American flag is in place at the Apache Junction High School near Phoenix, Arizona. That happened after students took down the American flag from the school flagpole and raised the Mexican flag last week. And in Southern California, the Oceanside School District is banning American flags on campus after last week's illegal alien protests and demonstrations there.
Tina Azedin (ph), from our affiliate KGTV, with the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TINA AZEDIN, KGTV REPORTER (voice-over): For students protesters who carried a flag, it was a matter of pride. For police and the district, it was a problem.
KEN NOONAN, OCEANSIDE SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT: Well, someone would wave the Mexican flag and then someone else would wave an American flag, almost as if they were using the flags as emotional weapons with each other, and we think, you know, that's not appropriate for either flag, for the flag to be used as a weapon. That's almost a form of desecration
AZEDIN: Now, the Oceanside School District is sending this letter to parents, stating, no student may bring or wear disruptive clothing, face paint, signs, placards, or flags. Claiming they were contributing factors to last week's disruptive behavior.
ROXANNE GUZMAN, STUDENT: It's bringing a lot of tension between the students.
AZEDIN: Sixty-hundred and fifty students skipped school last Tuesday and Wednesday in Oceanside to protest.
EDWARD JOHNSON, STUDENT: I went out to protest against the bill that -- that was introduced in the House.
AZEDIN: Here's what happened.
JOHNSON: I got suspended for five days.
AZEDIN: Students will be suspended again if they bring flags to school now.
GUZMAN: I think that's a good idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They should be able to bring a flag to school, as long as you're not doing nothing bad with it.
AZEDIN: Behind these walls, the district stands behind the state education code, which puts limits on free speech.
NOONAN: But the whole idea is that students don't need to be waving signs, don't need to be waving flags on the campus. They need to be in class.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And reporting Tina Azedin of our affiliate KGTV. The issue of wearing flags is one being taken up buy the American Civil Liberties Union, supporting those students who would wish to demonstrate their views by wearing an American flag or taking an American flag and holding it high wherever they choose.
Also tonight, school officials near Los Angeles have completed their investigation into an incident last week where an American flag was flown upside down during an illegal alien protest march against the Sensenbrenner legislation.
During this protest at the Montebello, California, high school, a Mexican flag was also hoisted atop the flag post. Despite the fact that a crowd of student protesters can be seen around the flagpole, only one student will be punished for the incident.
We're likely to see more Mexican flags on our streets over the next few weeks. Major new protests, protesting against the Sensenbrenner legislation, in support of amnesty for illegal aliens, are now being planned in more than 25 cities across the country. And the Mexican flag will likely be flown prominently in those protests, we're told, and there will be an absence of the American flag.
Casey Wian has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They've already marched in the streets, now they plan to cripple the American economy for a day. On May 1, International Worker's Day, supporters of full amnesty for illegal aliens are organizing a massive economic boycott.
BRIAN BECKER, ANSWER COALITION: Beware, if there is not full equality on May 1st, the offices, the hotels, the schools, the factories will empty out as people take to the streets not only in the United States but throughout the Americas.
WIAN: That's right, organizers want children from grammar school on up to stay home. They want workers to stay off the job. They are asking consumers not to buy anything and businesses to shut down. Also, millions of people who have broken the nation's immigration laws suffer no consequences for their actions.
JUAN JOSE GUITIERREZ, LATINO MOVEMENT USA: Our position is clear. We want nothing else, nothing less, than a comprehensive, all- encompassing process for full legalization. That's what we have been fighting for, from day one.
WIAN: In 2003, Latino activists in California called a similar boycott, over Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's veto over a bill that would have granted drivers licenses to illegal aliens. The boycott failed miserably. The biggest impact was felt by school districts that lost government funds for students who skip school. The already cash-strapped Los Angeles School District lost more than $5 million that would have been spent on the education of mostly Latino students.
This coming Monday, some of the same open borders pro-illegal alien groups are planning another day of street protests in 34 cities in 18 states. They are calling all of these actions part of a new civil rights movement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: These protesters say even the McCain-Kennedy Bill, which border security advocates call amnesty, is too harsh. They are comparing the struggle for expanded rights for illegal aliens to the U.S. Civil War and the fight against Apartheid in South Africa -- Lou.
DOBBS: Utterly breathtaking. The group ANSWER. May 1st, what are these organizations all about?
WIAN: They are about open borders. They say they are about workers' rights, but what they're really about is open borders. We asked them today whether they would support amnesty for illegal aliens coming from any country, including countries with terrorists ties, they say, yes, absolutely.
This is about the free movement of workers, the free movement of people across borders. And there's no quibbling about semantics, about the definition of amnesty here, that's what they want for everyone that is here illegally, Lou.
DOBBS: And May 1st, an interesting day to choose symbolically. Casey Wian, thank you, reporting from Los Angeles tonight.
Coming up, more of your thoughts, and we'll find out what the American people are talking about. I'll be talking with some of the nation's top radio talk show hosts. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now, Randi Rhodes -- she's the host of "The Randi Rhodes Show" on Air America, and Bob Pickett -- he's host of "The Open Line" on KISS-FM here in New York and Steve Cochran, host of "The Steve Cochran Show" on WGN Radio in Chicago.
Folks, great to have you with us.
Randi, let's start with illegal immigration. The president's trilateral summit and the Senate's insistence on a guest-worker program.
RANDI RHODES, HOST, AIR AMERICA'S "THE RANDI RHODES SHOW": Well, you know, the House bill is so brutal -- that's why you're seeing all of these incredible protests and so, you know, I don't think that the protests are so much a reaction to the Senate program, which obviously I'm not completely for it. Unless they tie it to minimum wage and health security, it's just a slave society that they're creating.
So, you know, the plan that the House had, though, was so brutal, was to load up buses, 11 million. And I think somebody indicated that the buses would go from Alaska, right down to the Mexican border, one after the other, to take 11 million people out of here.
So, it's a difficult problem, it's complex, but the whole idea of not tying any of this to minimum wage and some sort of health insurance is going to kill the middle class, Lou. That's what it's going to do. It creates an entire slave, sharecropper, indentured servant -- whatever you want to call it.
DOBBS: And we're not talking just the illegal aliens, who would be a part of that slave economy or sharecropper economy, as Warren Buffett has said, we're talking about people who are living middle class lives, and that's most of us in this country ...
RHODES: That's right.
DOBBS: ... moving to a whole new standard of living.
Steve Cochran, what do you think?
STEVE COCHRAN, HOST, WGN'S "THE STEVE COCHRAN SHOW": I just think we're not dealing with reality here. And I think you can't count on a government that's let the illegal alien problem get out of hand over the last 10 years any more than you can count on the folks who are here illegally -- knowingly illegally -- to show up to get on a bus to go back to a country they wanted to leave in the first place. So I think it's a three-step process: I think, one, you got to spend the money to secure the borders -- that's job one; you got to stop playing footsie with President Fox and tell him to get serious about helping us with border security the same way he does with the southeastern border of his own country; and then the final thing is to crack down on employers who are knowingly employing illegal aliens.
DOBBS: One of the principle objections I have to the Sensenbrenner legislation -- not because it's draconian in terms of border security, because frankly it doesn't even go far enough in that area -- but the idea of criminalizing illegal aliens, making it a felony for illegal aliens to cross that border, I think, is unfair and unrealistic and doesn't really solve the issue.
What I think would -- and it's interesting that our Congress, Bob Pickett, hasn't followed up on this -- why not make it a felony for illegal employers who hire illegal aliens?
BOB PICKETT, HOST, KISS-FM'S "THE OPEN LINE": No, I think that probably is the more important element of any future legislation that addresses this issue, is to force these third party -- I call them third party providers -- to not provide services, to not provide employment to these illegal immigrants and so forth.
I agree with you. I think the Sensenbrenner proposal is corrosive in terms of being able to place some criminality on these people, because I think, overall, we welcome opportunities for immigrants coming into the country if they come into the country legally.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
PICKETT: However, we have not put any bite into any kind of legislation that would force employers -- and I would even go further, Lou, quite frankly, to suggest to you that maybe what we need to do is create legislation that would not only put the burden on employers, but on people who provide credit services, mortgages and so forth, to not be able to provide those kinds of services to illegal immigrants.
DOBBS: Isn't it astounding in this country that we have literally millions of people in this country who can't get a home mortgage, who cannot be provided a host of services -- U.S. citizens. And we're turning it over to illegal aliens.
PICKETT: That's right.
RHODES: They can barely work at McDonald's, but they can't afford to eat there. Think about that. You can work at McDonald's, but you can't afford to eat there. It sort of makes panhandling look like a viable career choice now.
I mean, look, the idea that this is not corporatism -- I think we're all on the same page. This is a corporation's wet dream, to have people that will replace middle class guys and girls who are willing to work for a minimum wage -- yeah, who'll have to have three and four jobs to make ends meet. But they're depressing the wages for the middle class by hiring and being able to scot-free, no fine for hiring people who are here illegally.
The crackdown has got to begin A, at the border -- we don't have any leadership at all. This president and Vicente Fox are colluding to create new people to hate. Instead of saying to Vicente Fox, the ex-Coca Cola maven, Hey, the elites in Mexico are doing just fine; why don't you take care of your people and stop pushing and pushing and pushing them out of the country and resolving yourself to the responsibility of taking care of them?
COCHRAN: Yes, I don't think it's that simple either, to be honest with you, Lou. And I'm concerned about the framework of the whole argument. When the president says things like "jobs that Americans aren't willing to do," it's an impression of a caste system.
And if you're a Mexican American who has gained legal status in this country, that should offend you. And these jobs that Americans don't think they -- or might not want to do -- my brother has one of those jobs. He's a dishwasher at Ithaca College in upstate New York. And I'm not comfortable to say that I need to have a Mexican to mow my lawn, or to bring me water when I go out to eat dinner. It's a ridiculous statement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: We're going to be right back, Steve, and continue that thought. We'll be right back, please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN, "THE SITUATION ROOM," and Wolf Blitzer. Wolf, what have you got?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. We're watching several important stories, including more on the fallen majority leader Tom DeLay. He'll be live right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM." He's stepping out of office, facing felony charges. I'm going to ask him some of the tough questions about the corruption scandal that clearly has tarnished his tenure. He'll be right here with me in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Plus, Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean. He's also in "THE SITUATION ROOM." With the Republicans facing so much trouble, why does it seem that Democrats can't get their act together? I'll ask him.
And Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney facing possible arrest. We'll find out why her colleagues aren't exactly rushing to her aid.
And getting ready for the next big one, the forecast now out for this coming year's hurricane season. It begins June 1st. We're going to fill you in on what to expect. Lou, all that coming up right at the top of the hour.
DOBBS: Wolf, thank you very much.
Now back with Randi Rhodes of Air America, Bob Pickett of KISS-FM in New York, Steve Cochran of WGN Radio in Chicago, and their listeners' concerns about border security and illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PICKETT: We have something like two million listeners who tune in each week to us, and this past weekend, an overwhelming number of them called up and wanted to focus in on the immigration issue. Very much concerned. They are also somewhat disappointed in the way in which their legislators are reacting and responding to their concerns and to their issues. They think that they are being ignored in large part by their legislators, by Congress and the senators...
RHODES: They are.
PICKETT: They are not responding to our needs...
DOBBS: Irrespective of the party.
PICKETT: Irrespective of the parties. Whose needs are they representing? Is it Vicente Fox and the illegal immigrants, or is it their constituents?
RHODES: It's corporatism and it's an election year, and this is a great wedge issue.
They divide Americans. Middle class against the lower middle class that's just trying to, you know, make it. And they're saying, oh, guess what, illegals? You're as a bad as a felon who, you know, robbed or raped, and so that's the way we're going to talk about you. We're going to talk about you as a felonious person and make people despise you for being here.
COCHRAN: Yes, but you know what, Randi?
RHODES: And then we're going to tie you to a corporation and give you 11 years to earn the right to be the poorest American.
COCHRAN: But Randi, I'm not going to get -- I'm not comfortable giving the people that run the country enough credit for being that devious and coming up with that much of a plan.
RHODES: Well, Karl Rove's pretty devious. He's pretty good at these things.
COCHRAN: I don't think they're sitting around -- I don't think they're sitting around and coming up with some plot from "24." I just think it goes back to that simple measure of common sense.
RHODES: Not that deep. You know what, it's -- this is the old Lee Atwater wedge issue. That's what it is. It's a wedge issue.
DOBBS: This president has not exactly shown an amazing acuity when it comes to political wedge issues, because if you look over what has happened since he was elected -- my gosh, Karl Rove or no Karl Rove -- Karl Rove needs some training wheels right now, don't you think? PICKETT: I agree right now. I think that the Bush administration, they're going to have some difficulty, you know, going forward. Because I think the opposition from the American public is building now, and I think that the American public will not tolerate any concessions to these illegal immigrants.
DOBBS: I would love to hear if the American public won't tolerate something. I don't know about you, Steve Cochran...
COCHRAN: No, here's the deal. There is an optimism about America. There's a pessimism about the people that are running America.
RHODES: That's right.
COCHRAN: Whether they're Republicans or Democrats or whatever. And you know, the far right and the far left are always going to be there. The deal is, how many people watching us right now and watch you every night, Lou, are going to take enough interest in this to educate themselves and vote for the people that believe the way they do this fall, and not wait for you or me or you guys to tell them what they think?
PICKETT: Yes, but Steve...
COCHRAN: Do the homework...
PICKETT: Here's the problem. America has a very short memory on these kinds of issues, unfortunately. By the time -- and I think the Democrats and the Republicans are counting on the fact that six months from now, when election occurs, that they will -- all of this will be forgiven and forgotten.
DOBBS: Oh, I'm starting to paw the...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Do we have a -- do the American people have a short memory, or do we in the national media? Or are we the ones that have a short memory?
PICKETT: But that's another question, because ...
RHODES: We are the ones.
DOBBS: You'd better believe it.
PICKETT: That's another question.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Because people -- we're sitting here watching wages -- wages are being -- are actually eroding, real earnings.
RHODES: Yes. DOBBS: We've seem them stagnate over the course of the last better than two decades. I mean, people don't need much of a reminder to say, this deal isn't working for me, my family, and the kids I care so much about. With two...
PICKETT: We're seeing, Lou, we're seeing, I think, the coming demise of the middle class in America as we knew it.
RHODES: Absolutely. And it's by plan, it's by design. The middle class is exactly who puts up a fight. Think about it. The middle class is the one that demands health care. The middle class is the one that demands minimum wage, no child labor, women get the right to vote, no more sharecropping, Jim Crow laws. It's -- we're the ones that make the entire experiment work.
COCHRAN: You have to give the middle class reason and encourage the middle class and challenge the middle class to not take it any more, to say, this is the election -- the midterm election, frankly, is more important than the presidential election. This is the election you've got to decide who is going to be sitting in the House for the next two years. Get involved, people.
(CROSSTALK)
RHODES: Listen -- and everybody...
DOBBS: You get the last word, because we're wrapping.
RHODES: Everybody know this: When we had war protests, there were thousands and thousands -- millions, actually -- people on the street. Media wouldn't cover it. They're covering these protests, because you get to see the brown people fly the Mexican flag and you get all outraged.
We have time to protest; the media doesn't cover it. It's really sad.
PICKETT: No -- I think that we should continue to remind America to wake up. And Lou, you do that job so well.
RHODES: Yes.
PICKETT: And hopefully, the other parts of the American media will do the same. If they don't do this, they are doing a disservice to the American citizenry by not constantly reminding them what's at stake. There's a lot at stake here, Lou.
DOBBS: A lot at stake. Bob Pickett, Steve Cochran, Randi Rhodes -- all doing their part to keep it real and to keep it honest. We thank you for being with us.
PICKETT: Thank you.
RHODES: Thank you, Lou -- great job.
COCHRAN: Thank you, Lou. (END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: You have the opportunity to be heard on this issue of illegal immigration reform. You can email President Bush through the White House Web site, whitehouse.gov. Your senator can be reached at Senate.gov. Your representative, your congressman or congresswoman can be emailed through the House of Representatives Web site, house.gov. You can link to those Web sites through ours, if you wish, LouDobbs.com.
And a reminder to vote in our poll tonight. The question -- do you believe terms and phrases such as "guest worker" and "jobs Americans won't do" and "matching willing workers with willing employers" are deceptive or helpful in this national debate? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. The results are coming right up after this quick break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll: 96 percent of you say that terms such as "guest worker" are deceptive in this national debate on illegal immigration.
Turning now to more of your thoughts.
Waldemar in Illinois: "I'm not against immigration, since I'm a legal immigrant myself. What I am against is the amnesty proposed for millions of illegal aliens. This is a slap in the face for all legal, past, present and future immigrants, who waited and are waiting patiently their turn to immigrate to the United States."
Martha in Florida: "Vicente Fox said he has made a firm commitment to creating jobs -- not in Mexico he hasn't, or his citizenry wouldn't be flocking here in droves to work for slave labor wages."
Virginia in Missouri: "Dear Lou, I thought I'd voted in every election since 1960. Somehow, I must have missed the one where Vicente Fox was elected president of the United States."
Thanks for sending us your thoughts. Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. I'll be talking with the president and CEO of the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce about the economics of illegal immigration, and the author of a provocative new proposal to replace the American welfare state. He'll be here as well.
For all of us, thanks for joining us. Be with us tomorrow. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" and Wolf Blitzer begin right now -- Wolf.
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