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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Rising Number Of Former Generals Challenging Bush Administration's Conduct Of War In Iraq; General John Batiste Becomes Fourth Retired General To Call For Dismissal Of Rumsfeld; Roadside Bombs Killed Three More Troops; Illegal aliens Emboldened By Massive Rallies In Recent Weeks; Senate Came Up Short On Amnesty Bill Before Spring Recess; General Anthony Zinni Interview;
Aired April 12, 2006 - 17:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, insurgents have killed three more of our troops in Iraq. More American troops have been killed in the first 12 days of this month than in the entire month of March.
We'll have a special report for you from Baghdad.
A former general who commanded thousands of our combat troops in Iraq today demanded the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Among my guests tonight, one of the first retired generals to call for Rumsfeld's dismissal. He is General Anthony Zinni, former commander of Central Command.
Also tonight, supporters of amnesty for illegal aliens are planning massive new nationwide protests. This time, some want to cripple the economy for at least a day.
I'll be talking with a leading congressional advocate of amnesty for illegal aliens, Congressman Luis Gutierrez.
And the do-nothing Congress is ignoring what is an outright war now against our middle class by corporate America and special interests. Why in the world is Congress refusing to defend our middle class?
We'll have that special report and a great deal more coming up here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Wednesday, April 12th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, a rising number of former generals is challenging the Bush administration's conduct of the war in Iraq. A former commander of the 1st Infantry Division, General John Batiste, has become the fourth retired general to call for the dismissal of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The general's criticism reflects deepening public concern about the conduct of this war and the rising number of American casualties. Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon tonight on the rising criticism of Donald Rumsfeld. Aneesh Raman reports from Baghdad on what is already a deadly month for our troops in Iraq. And Suzanne Malveaux from the White House, on troubling new questions about the Bush administration's credibility.
We begin tonight with Barbara Starr -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Lou, here in the Pentagon hallways, growing concern about retired generals waiting until they retire to voice their concerns. Where were they when they were on active duty?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STARR (voice over): For the first time, a general who commanded thousands of combat troops in Iraq has called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign. Major General John Batiste commanded the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq before he retired five and a half months ago. In an interview with "AMERICAN MORNING," he was utterly blunt.
MAJ. GEN. JOHN BATISTE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: When decisions are made without taking into account sound military recommendations, sound military decision-making, sound planning, then we're bound to make mistakes. When we violate the principles of with mass and unity of command and unity of effort, we do that at our own peril.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: So, the secretary should step down?
BATISTE: In my opinion, yes.
STARR: Three other retired generals in the last month have called for Rumsfeld's resignation as well. They all say military advice was ignored.
One of the critics, retired Lieutenant General Gregory Newbold, a top operations officer, wrote, "The commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions or bury the result."
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff is dismayed.
GEN. PETER PACE, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We had then and have now every opportunity to speak our minds. And if we do not, shame on us, because the opportunity is there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: So, Lou, what is the bottom line here? General Pace insists in all the meetings he was in he never heard criticisms like this voiced, but tonight, in these hallways, a lot of people are questioning what's going to happen tomorrow, who will be next to voice their concerns -- Lou.
DOBBS: Any response, Barbara, on the part of the Pentagon as to the ease with which generals on active duty and in command were invited to be as fully expressive as they might need to be?
STARR: Nothing official from the Pentagon, Lou, but let's be very clear. The way General Pace explains it, someone who is a general in the U.S. military or an admiral, has an obligation to express their views to their higher-ups if they have a problem with the way things are going. If they are ruled against, they either have to fall in line or they have an obligation then to retire.
But General Batiste raises the question that we certainly do continue to hear here time and again, were there generals who were simply too intimidated by Don Rumsfeld's style to have the courage to step up and speak their views at the time? And I must tell you, I have heard that concern expressed by some of the secretary's own top aides -- Lou.
DOBBS: One would hope that one of our generals serving the U.S. military would never be intimidated by anybody for any reason.
Thank you very much, Barbara Starr, from the Pentagon.
One major reason for the retired general's criticism is the rising number of our casualties in Iraq. Roadside bombs today killed three more of our troops -- 2,364 American troops have now been killed in Iraq since this war began three years ago.
Aneesh Raman reports from Baghdad.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, good evening. The U.S. military announcing tonight three American soldiers have been killed in Iraq. One on patrol east of Baghdad. The other two on patrol south of the capital.
Both incidents involved soldiers hitting roadside bombs. These IEDs, or improvised explosive devices, remain the biggest killer of U.S. forces in Iraq, despite Pentagon attempts to decrease their effectiveness.
Now, not even midway through April, and this month has seen more American casualties than all of March, which saw a record low, led some to suggest there was a downward trend in attacks. That seems not to be the case.
These attacks on U.S. forces this month have been concentrated in the volatile western Al Anbar province and in around the capital of Baghdad. This, as the U.S. military confirms to CNN they are increasing their numbers and increasing their patrols alongside Iraqi security forces in and around the capital, following the bombing of that Shia mosque back at the end of February.
Now, the only solution to this, the only way to decrease the presence of U.S. forces, to decrease and turn their numbers, is for Iraq's government to take hold of Iraq's security forces and increase their effectiveness. The problem, there is no government yet formed nearly four months after Iraqis went to the polls.
The leaderships of Iraq's various political entities, the Kurds, the Sunnis, and the Shia, are embroiled in a battle over who will be the country's prime minister for the next four years. The Shia had nominated again the current prime minister, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, for the post. He has been widely criticized by the Sunnis and by the Kurds. They have refused to work with him to form a unity government.
So now there's a political stalemate that has gripped the country, led to a power vacuum. The parliament is set to meet on Monday. People are hoping that this conference -- this crisis -- sorry -- will be resolved by then -- Lou.
DOBBS: Aneesh Raman, reporting from Baghdad tonight.
The number of our troops who have been wounded in Iraq is rising sharply -- 17,549 American troops have wounded since the war started. Of those, 8,058 have been wounded so seriously they cannot return to duty.
The White House tonight trying to deflect new questions about Iraq and the way in which the administration handled the intelligence on weapons of mass destruction. The White House called a "Washington Post" report on suspected biological weapons laboratories in Iraq reckless, but that report is raising new concerns in some quarters about the Bush administration's credibility.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from the White House -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, it's really a debate that the White House is sick and tired of being engaged in. The White House calling the report by "The Washington Post," as well as ABC News, as reckless and irresponsible.
They take strong exception to any suggestion that President Bush intentionally used inaccurate information to justify the U.S. going to war with Iraq. And they point to, of course, the issue here is a statement that was made by the president May 29, 2003, to Polish television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories.
You remember Colin Powell stood up in front of the world and said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They are illegal. They are against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: That evidence he is referring to are two trailers found in northern Iraq that U.S. intelligence at the time claimed were mobile weapons factories. The White House said that the president, the administration got that information from the CIA, the DIA.
We have since learned, of course, from the government's own Iraq Survey Group that that was not correct information, that they were not biological labs. "The Washington Post" reporting that there was a Pentagon-sponsored group of experts who were looking into this and who made that conclusion, filed that information in Washington in a classified report two days before President Bush made that declaration. But today, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said adamantly that the president did not get that intelligence assessment until much, much later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president's statements were based on the joint assessment of the CIA and DIA that was publicly released the day before. So this was publicly provided to the American people. It's what the White House had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: And, Lou, of course the significance of all of this, the president's critics say this comes at a time when credibility of the president is at question. Of course, with various series over the failed port deal, as you know, Dubai port deal, the immigration reform, and CIA leak investigation, but Scott McClellan coming out and saying he does not believe it's the president that has a credibility problem, but rather, those who continue to insist that the president deliberately misled the American people -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, it is important, I think, to make clear, "The Washington Post" did not suggest that the president had been informed of the report, but, rather, stated that it was two days, the report was turned in two days before the president spoke on Polish television.
MALVEAUX: That's right. And there is -- what the White House is objecting to is really the top line that they say implies some way that the president knew of this, those two days prior, and that somehow he was deliberately putting forward inaccurate information.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Suzanne Malveaux, from the White House.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today declared that the United Nations Security Council must now take action to stop Iran's nuclear program. Yesterday, Iran announced what it calls a breakthrough in its effort to enrich uranium. Secretary Rice said Iran must not be allowed to build nuclear weapons.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iran has been offered many opportunities to negotiate in good faith by the Europeans, by the Russians. They've never taken those opportunities.
They are -- we've had a presidential statement that made numerous -- that reinforced those requirements. The Iranians have not reacted to that. And, so, yes, when -- we are consulting now, and when the Security Council reconvenes, I think it will be time for action. We can't let this continue. (END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Secretary Rice called on the Security Council to take what she called strong steps, not saying what those steps should be.
New comments by U.N. member nations suggest there's little urgency on their part to pressure Iran in this crisis. Communist China's U.N. ambassador says Tehran is merely "... not in line with what is required of them by the international community." China's ambassador also saying sanctions or the threat of force against Iran would not be helpful under the current situation.
A spokesperson for the European Union said Iran's uranium breakthrough is "... regrettable... such announcements are not helpful."
And U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said today, "I appeal to everyone to actively work to search for a diplomatic solution and to cool down the rhetoric."
One of the stronger attacks against Iran came from Russia, whose efforts to curb Iran's nuclear program have failed completely so far.
There was highly emotional testimony today in the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person to be charged in connection with the September 11th attacks. Prosecutors in Alexandria, Virginia, played a cockpit recording of the last minutes of United Flight 93, the aircraft that crashed into a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
The tape begins just after the terrorists took control of the aircraft and includes the voices of passengers who tried to storm the cockpit. The recording ends in static when the hijackers crashed the aircraft to the ground.
Thirty-three passengers and seven crew members were killed.
Still ahead here, illegal aliens and their supporters ready to shut down key parts of the economy in their fight for amnesty. The same groups who say they are pro-American.
We'll have a special report.
And as Congress fights tirelessly for the rights of illegal aliens, they appear to have forgotten about our middle class. A special report on the latest assault in the war on the middle class.
And President Bush's Iraq policy under new attack tonight. Three of this country's most distinguished political analysts join us here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Illegal aliens and their supporters are emboldened by their massive rallies in recent weeks. They are now making plans for an even greater demonstration on May 1st. These groups say they can convince Congress and the American public to support amnesty, and they plan to do it by shutting down parts of our economy.
Casey Wian reports from the Port of Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): They've already marched in the streets. Now supporters of unconditional amnesty for illegal aliens are taking their protests to a whole new level, trying to shut down the nation's ports and rail lines.
ERNESTO NEVAREZ, L.A. PORT COLLECTIVE: It will come to a grinding halt, transportation, commerce. They are going to put a wall along the border with Mexico. We're going to put a wall between us and the ocean. And those containers ain't going to move.
WIAN: A group of Los Angeles truck drivers seeking union representation and a 25 percent pay raise is now joining what's being billed as the Great American Boycott of May 1st. It seeks to cripple the U.S. economy by advocating no work, no school, no selling and no buying.
Some May Day boycott organizers are not only calling on businesses to shut down, but also asking California school districts to declare Monday, May 1st, a school holiday.
NATIVO LOPEZ, MEXICAN-AMERICAN POLITICAL ASSN.: I would like them to join us on May 1st in shutting down their business and for school authorities to recognize May 1st as a floating holiday. I'm asking them to get in front, anticipate the great absence in their workforce and in the schools.
A state Education Department officials say the decision is up to individual school districts, but she hopes the kids stay in school.
Boycott leaders vow they will "... settle for nothing less than full amnesty and dignity for the millions of undocumented workers presently in the U.S." The May 1st boycott has clear Marxist overtones. Supporters include communists, socialist and anarchist groups.
Traditional immigrant and Latino rights organizations and unions are also involved, as are some politicians. Listen to the reasoning of California's state senate majority leader.
GLORIA ROMERO (D), CALIFORNIA STATE SENATE: Some people might ask, why would a senator sitting in Sacramento support a boycott essentially of California business? As a senator, I represent citizens and non-citizens alike.
WIAN: And apparently illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WIAN: Some organizers of this week's protests say they are not going to support the May Day boycott. One former lawmaker from Arizona who helped organize the protests in Phoenix says marchers are tired and need to get back to work -- Lou.
DOBBS: These are remarkable calls, by any definition. Are the officials, for example, at the port taking the threat of a possible strike on May 1st seriously?
WIAN: Well, I have to say, the port officials we spoke to today were not aware of this threat until we told them about it, but they say now they will take it seriously. They say it's likely the California Highway Patrol, the port police, terminal operators, security forces will all be at a heightened states of alert on May 1st -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
Republican leaders in Congress tonight are backing off provisions on the Sensenbrenner legislation that would subject illegal aliens to felony prosecution for crossing the border. House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist say any immigration reform legislation that passes Congress will not subject illegal aliens to prosecution as felons.
These congressional leaders will not say what punishments, if any, they are willing to impose against the nation's estimated 11 million to 20 million illegal aliens, but their action is intended to help build GOP support for some kind of immigration reform bill. It should be noted that Congressman Sensenbrenner himself tried to remove the felony provisions from his bill. The move was blocked by House Democrats. Sensenbrenner says the penalty against illegal aliens should be reduced to a misdemeanor.
In tonight's poll, tell us, do you believe we can have meaningful reform of our immigration laws without first securing our borders and ports? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here in the broadcast a little later.
Former FEMA director Michael Brown, who was fired for his inadequate response to the Hurricane Katrina disaster, may soon be back at work in hurricane-ravaged Louisiana. St. Bernard Parish, which was devastated by Katrina, is considering hiring Brown as a consultant. Brown says he can help the parish rebuild.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BROWN, FMR. FEMA DIRECTOR: The problems that we experienced at the state level, even at the local level, even in St. Bernard Parish, the people that I'm trying to help, we would all recognize that it was the red tape that was causing us problems, and that's what I can cut through, because I know where that blasted red tape is that created problems for me down in New Orleans and Mississippi and in Alabama. (END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Other local officials say it's unbelievable that Brown would be considered for the post given his job performance after Katrina. A meeting Brown had scheduled in St. Bernard Parish for tomorrow has been canceled, reportedly. But Brown says he is still ready to take the job if it is offered to him.
Still ahead here, another former U.S. general who served in Iraq is calling for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. I'll be talking with former General Anthony Zinni. He's also calling for Rumsfeld's resignation tonight.
And as Congress fights for the so-called rights of illegal aliens, they seem to be ignoring the struggles and challenges facing our middle class. We'll have that special report.
And illegal aliens say they can win support for their cause by shutting down our nation's ports and railways. I'll be talking with Congressman Luis Gutierrez, who organized one of the major protests against tighter illegal immigration controls and border security here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: While Congress has been debating exactly which form of amnesty to grant illegal aliens in this country, it continued to ignore issues that strongly affect, even batter America's middle class. Energy prices in this country are soaring, wages have been stagnant for years, and the attentive minimum tax will hit 20 million Americans.
In response, Congress went on vacation.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Supporters of illegal aliens have the eyes and ears of politicians. But who is watching? Who is listening to middle class America?
MILES RAPOPORT, PRESIDENT, DEMOS: If you think about the issues that concern middle class families, whether it's the high cost of education, the cost of child care, the cost of housing, the costs of health care and the availability of health care, none of those issues have been addressed by Congress, and it's really a shame.
TUCKER: Paying for college keeps getting tougher. Tuition at publicly-funded colleges rose 26 percent from 2000 through 2004, according to the latest figures. On taxes, more and more working families are being caught by the alternative minimum tax.
BOB MCINTYRE, CITIZENS FOR TAX JUSTICE: If they don't do something this year, then about half the people who make from $75,000 to $100,000 will be facing this. If you make between $100,000 and $200,000, three-quarters will be facing it.
TUCKER: When the alternative minimum tax was drafted in 1969, it was targeted at literally 155 tax filers in the country. Now, more than 20 million, 15 percent of all taxpayers, stand to get hit by it. Congress hasn't fixed it.
And on soaring energy prices, once again Congress is standing on the sidelines.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a tremendous amount that Congress can do. We have an opportunity, I think, to create a more energy- independent society.
TUCKER: It would be funny if it weren't so serious, but now wait.
JAY LENO, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": And I'm sure you know our cowardly, idiot Congress left on a two-week spring break. These are the biggest bunch of do-nothings. They didn't do anything. They didn't come to terms with the bill. They just left. They went on vacation.
They couldn't finish the bill, so they left. So apparently Congress also on a temporary worker program.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: It's funny as a joke, but not as a daily reality for millions of Americans with nothing being done, Lou. We are on pace for yet another record-setting year for both our twin deficits, the trade and the budget deficit.
DOBBS: And not a national strategy in any way of any kind from either party to improve the lives of working men and women in this country, or the middle class?
TUCKER: No.
DOBBS: Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
Time now to take a look at some of your thoughts.
Richard in California wrote in to say, "Thank you, Lou, for pointing out the slow-motion invasion of America by illegal aliens. It's an insult to all of the people who have come to America legally, and it is diluting our culture, our economy and the American taxpayer who is paying for it."
Robert in Florida, "What we seem to forget is that becoming a U.S. immigrant is a privilege, not a right. The middle class of this country better wake up and show our government, by marching, that not all U.S. citizens believe that illegal immigrants should be allowed in this country and given all the rights of citizenship." Bill in Michigan, "Lou, every time the president tries to sell us on his ideas and message, his poll ratings go down. Do you think he will ever get the message that the American public does not share his ideas?"
Denise in Wisconsin, "Today I heard a new one. My boss referred to illegal immigrants as undocumented citizens. Unfortunately, I couldn't debate the issue with him because I need my low-paying job. The job that Americans won't do."
Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
Coming up next, Congressman Luis Gutierrez joins me to discuss the amnesty agenda and the politics of protests. He knows about both. He organized a massive demonstration against the Sensenbrenner bill.
And General Anthony Zinni, commander of all U.S. forces in the Middle East, who now says Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should resign. We'll be discussing that and his new book "The Battle for Peace."
And some of the nation's leading analysts weigh in on the challenges facing the president: Iraq, illegal immigration, a widening credibility gap, and a worsening situation for working men and women in this country. Remember them?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Some congressional Democrats are being criticized tonight for abandoning our nation's middle class and supporting amnesty protection for low wage illegal alien workers. But not all congressional Democrats are pandering to the illegal alien amnesty movement.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Senate came up short on an amnesty bill before the spring recess. Five Democratic senators sided with 55 Republicans to defeat the legislation. Senator Byron Dorgan is among them. He believes his party's backing of an amnesty and guest-worker program is the wrong approach.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: That's the strategy for corporations to provide a ladder of cheap labor coming into this country, displacing American workers. We have a serious crisis in this country with respect to the plight of America's workers.
SYLVESTER: Dorgan says the poorest Americans would have to compete with incoming guest workers, pushing down wages. The unemployment rate for recent high school dropouts was 15 percent for men and 21 percent for women in 2005. Immigration reform groups see the majority of Democrats abandoning one of their core constituencies, low-income American families.
BRENDA WALKER, BAY AREA COALITION FOR IMMIG. REFORM: Democrats are supposed to be the party that stands up for the little guy, for the lower middle-class, blue-collar worker, and their policies have not supported those Americans at all. It's very disappointing.
SYLVESTER: Democratic Senator Ben Nelson also said no to amnesty. His constituents tell him they want enforcement before a guest-worker program.
SEN. BEN NELSON (D), NEBRASKA: People have to be able to recognize that if we don't solve the problem of border security first, we can't really effectively deal with the number of people that we already have here in a humane, but also effective way.
SYLVESTER: Senator Robert Byrd voted for amnesty in 1986 and says it was failure. Instead of being the solution for the illegal immigration crisis, it only brought in millions of more illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The other senators who voted against the Hagel- Martinez amnesty were Senators Kent Conrad from North Dakota and Bill Nelson from Florida. On the House side, 36 Democrats sided with Republicans to pass the Sensenbrenner Enforcement Only Bill last year -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa Sylvester from Washington, thank you Lisa.
My next guest was not one of the Democrats who voted for the Sensenbrenner legislation. Congressman Luis Gutierrez helped organize a protest, in fact, against the legislation and brought 100,000 people out on to the streets of Chicago.
Congressman Gutierrez, chairman of the Democratic Immigration Task Force joins us here tonight from Chicago. Good to have you with us, congressman.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: Thank Lou. It's a pleasure to be with you.
DOBBS: By the way, I just should point out, I saw an article in one of your papers there in Chicago -- I think "The Sun Times" -- lamenting the fact that the last time you were here a week ago that you and I had not gone down to the level of fisticuffs in trying to beat one another senseless on the issue of illegal immigration.
GUTIERREZ: I wasn't lamenting that, Lou. I just said, isn't it great we didn't go there?
DOBBS: You're right. You're absolutely right.
GUTIERREZ: That we can have a discussion. I was -- actually, I said, look, we had a great discussion. We had a great talk. Let's keep talking about the future of America together. DOBBS: No, I was just -- and I thought you were -- and I certainly second your comments. I just thought it was funny that the reporter was obviously devastated that you were...
GUTIERREZ: The editorial, yes.
DOBBS: You know, giving us both that opportunity, let's go to the issue.
GUTIERREZ: Sure.
DOBBS: The demonstration, we have seen some growth in the organizers of these protests and demonstrations, far more American flags and even though some of them are upside down, far fewer national flags.
But now there's a call -- I don't know if you were able to see it, but as we reported from Los Angeles tonight, Nativo Lopez, a large number of organizations are now calling for May 1 as a nationwide boycott to demonstrate the power, the economic power, of illegal aliens in this country.
Are you going to be supporting that? Do you believe it's the right thing to do?
GUTIERREZ: I really don't, Lou. To be quite honest with you, I'm not appraised of the situation. I don't know what -- I know that there was a boycott of a certain beer because they were supporting Mr. Sensenbrenner, and the beer company kind of came to their senses and said, we'd love to do these additional things with the immigrant community.
And boycotting and saying, we're not going to sponsor those that we don't believe are helping us, is a pretty long-standing American tradition. So if it's that kind of a boycott against the enemies of those -- I mean, people shouldn't -- I think in America...
DOBBS: I can put you down...
(CROSSTALK)
GUTIERREZ: ... my dollars. Excuse me.
DOBBS: I can put you down under undecided or a maybe then in terms of the boycott and the protests.
GUTIERREZ: Well, I'm a definite maybe.
DOBBS: All right, well fair enough.
Congressman, let's talk about the Sensenbrenner legislation. Both your majority -- the speaker of the house and the majority leader in the Senate coming out and saying that they are not going to have the language that is apparently galvanized a lot of the organizers of these protests, that is the felony legislation, the felony part of the legislation for someone crossing the border illegally. Does that ameliorate many of your concerns?
GUTIERREZ: I think it's a step in the right direction. I'm happy that Speaker Hastert, who I believe is an excellent legislator and congressman -- I have a great deal of respect for him. I disagree with him, but I have a great degree of respect for him.
DOBBS: Right.
GUTIERREZ: I think he wants to do the compassionate and the right thing. And I'm happy that we're setting the record...
DOBBS: Right.
GUTIERREZ: ...straight in terms of what we should be doing.
DOBBS: And what we should be doing is -- seems to me, is sort of questioning what's going on in the United States Senate, and I wonder if you do. Because in our research, in our investigation of watching, you recall your colleagues there on Capitol Hill, the Senators McCain, Kennedy, Martinez, others, saying that they are sort of patting themselves on the back on a Thursday for being so close to a compromise -- talking about border security and so forth.
Would you be surprised, congressman, to find out that we researched that and found out that the United States Senate had not appropriated a single dime for enforcement, for administration of a program that they were holding up before television cameras -- and frankly I got to tell you, straight out, in my opinion, lying to the American people -- saying that politics had overwhelmed policy.
When in point of fact they hadn't put forth a dime of appropriations nor were they going to for enforcement or the administration of a program, that I think you would agree if we were to do an amnesty program as the president wants would require an immense bureaucracy. Are you shocked that they did that?
GUTIERREZ: Well, I think putting your dollars behind your words and behind good public policy is essential. It's essential if you're going to be successful, and it's also essential if you're going to get the American people to give you some credibility on the issue.
DOBBS: Right.
GUTIERREZ: When Senator McCain, Kennedy, with Congressman Flake and Colby, first introduced the legislation last year -- when you read our bill -- and I know you did, Lou...
DOBBS: I sure did.
GUTIERREZ: ...it was enforcement, enforcement, enforcement. We increased the penalties. Much of the enforcement -- much of the dollars for enforcement came out of increased penalties to employers and to those who would smuggle people into this country. So I believe in enforcement. I think it's critical that we have enforcement.
DOBBS: Right. GUTIERREZ: I also believe if you have 11 million people, if you shut down the border and build the fence and build the wall and do all of the enforcement, what do you do with the 11 million people that are here? I think that that is something that we should have a rational debate and discussion about.
DOBBS: And I think that has begun, and I know you and I may well part...
GUTIERREZ: I think so, too.
DOBBS: ...ways on this, but as I've said here for some time, and you and I have discussed in person, we can't reform immigration if we can't control it. And we can't control it if we don't have our borders secured and our ports secured.
GUTIERREZ: And I think that if you and I were to sit down, for one moment, and craft a border-patrol and a border-security, an internal security measure, and I said to you, Lou, I want a biometric card that you can swipe so that no employer would ever get away with the excuse that they didn't know that was an undocumented worker, illegal here in this country. And I said, we're going to use all kind of biometric measures, I bet you and I would agree fundamentally on most of the essential parts of any border-patrol bill.
Now we have to turn the page and begin that discussion on the part that I probably believe that you and I would disagree on, and that's what do we do about those that are here already in the country.
DOBBS: If we can secure our borders and our ports, then we can begin a very good discussion over a drink of your choice, coffee, tea, or whatever, and then we'll get the rest of it.
Thanks for being here congressman. Appreciate it.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you, Lou, for having me here.
DOBBS: Congressman Luis Gutierrez, thank you.
Coming up here next, Marine Corps General Anthony Zinni, he joins us to discuss why he says Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should resign. As President Bush pushes his prescription drug plan, some of the nation's sharpest political analysts offer their diagnosis of the president's political health. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Insurgents have killed three more of our troops in Iraq. Thirty-six American troops have been killed in Iraq this month, more than the number killed in the entire month of March. As the number of our casualties rises, more retired generals are demanding the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
One of those generals is General Anthony Zinni, former commander of Central Command. General Zinni is the author of a new book, "The Battle For Peace: A Frontline Vision for America's Power and Purpose." General Zinni, I'm pleased to say, is joining us here in New York tonight.
General, good to have you with us.
GEN. ANTHONY ZINNI, U.S. MARINE CORPS (RET.): Thanks, Lou. Good to be here.
DOBBS: Let's start with the call for Rumsfeld's resignation, the increasing number of retired generals are doing so. Is it because of the rising casualties?
ZINNI: No, I think, especially since you're seeing generals who were out there in Iraq or involved in the planning -- I mean, in my case, I was retired by the time this started, but I took issue with the plans, because I knew that the ones that came before that. I think they saw the work-up.
They saw the mistakes that were made in planning, the faulty planning, the overoptimistic assumptions, trusting the exiles, bad decisions on the ground, inability to secure the borders -- all sorts of mistakes that should not have happened, that good, common sense military judgment should not have let happen.
DOBBS: General Pace, the chairman of the joint chiefs, and Secretary Rumsfeld bring up a very good point. Where were their voices when duty called?
ZINNI: Yes. Well, I can speak for myself.
DOBBS: Yes.
ZINNI: My voice was out there even before the war. They were in uniform. I thinks as Barbara Starr reported earlier, you have one of two choices: either you speak out or you leave. If you decide to leave after you're heard and not -- your advice not accepted, you're just going to be replaced. Somebody else is going to come in.
Will that make a difference? Can you effect change on the ground? And in many cases with some of the officers, they had to go over there and have the experience that Paul Eaton had and General Batiste and others on the ground to actually see it.
I mean, it wasn't a matter of maybe seeing the planning beforehand -- and there are cases like there might have been with General Newbold and myself -- but they experienced the effects of the bad decisions right on the ground.
DOBBS: And more than 2,300 of our troops have been killed, more than 8,000 injured so badly they are no longer able to perform their duties in the service. These are high casually counts for what we were told would be, going in, a cakewalk, even by some generals. You looked at the plans. You expressed your concerns, because planning, as you put it, was put aside by this Pentagon.
ZINNI: Yes.
DOBBS: It is one of the things, I think, starting to concern a lot of Americans. At what point do we have to be concerned about the quality of our leadership militarily? At what point do we have to be concerned that your general staff officers are not fulfilling their responsibilities, not only to the American people, but most urgently and importantly, to the troops we're putting in harm's way?
ZINNI: Well, that's right. I mean, we've had a book that you mentioned before in your show, "Dereliction of Duty," that was written by an Army officer about the faulty leadership, the failure to express their opinions on faulty planning during the Vietnam conflict.
DOBBS: Right.
ZINNI: We may see another one. We can honestly look at all the planning factors here and see not only bad military judgment, but the tossing out of almost a decade's worth of work, of planning and assessing this situation that we would face. Many of the things that ...
DOBBS: Speaking specifically of Iraq.
ZINNI: Of Iraq. Many of the situations we face were predicted, were anticipated, on at least were based on a worse-case possibility.
DOBBS: General, you've written an important book, "The Battle For Peace: A Frontline Vision of America's Power and Purpose." In it, you take us back through your experiences. I like your expression, the view from the foxhole, from -- really from Vietnam on, as an adviser to the South Vietnamese, ultimately what became the South Vietnamese Marines.
Your perspective is unique. You talk about the fact -- you say it straightforwardly. We have not yet come to terms with this government of ours. We have not come to terms with a simple lack of understanding about who we are in the world and what the world itself represents, the different cultures, the different interests that are competing and the potential for conflict.
ZINNI: Exactly.
DOBBS: How can this be after ...
ZINNI: Well, the world changed significantly in 1989. It was the beginning of the change and many other phenomena began to play into that -- globalization, rise of the information age, access to technology, many things you've covered on your show, the mobility and migrations of people, health concerns, environmental concerns, fear of terrorism, drugs on our streets.
Where is this coming from? A major unstable part of the world that we believe we can just avoid and isolate ourselves from. We know we can't. We have to understand this is a different world than the Cold War. We don't have the strategy, the governmental organization, the understanding of this world to effectively protect our interests in this world and promote our interests.
DOBBS: Your book is an important contribution to understanding a future in which we can deal with the challenge of instability and hopefully not violence, but certainly instability.
I'm going to ask you one question. We're going to conclude where we began. As we look at Iraq, when is the last time the United States military was successful in defeating an insurgency?
ZINNI: Well, we haven't been. When you're a third, outside force and you come into this environment, you can't do it on the cheap. If we should have learned any lesson from Vietnam, from the Haiti, Bosnia, Somalia, whatever, is -- to follow up what Secretary Powell had said, you break it, you own it.
If you own it, take charge of it. Control it. We should have planned for an occupation here. Think in terms of Douglas MacArthur, and not tried to do this on the cheap.
DOBBS: Anthony Zinni, the book is "The Battle For Peace," an important book, and I think it's going to be a very important book, especially for those who will be voting in November, those who are setting policy in Washington, and we appreciate you being here.
ZINNI: Thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: As always. Thank you, General.
ZINNI: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. Do you believe we can have meaningful reform of our immigration laws without first securing our borders and our ports? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here in just a few minutes.
Up next, President Bush and his administration under fire from many sides. We'll take a look at the president's mounting political troubles and challenges to the United States, next.
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DOBBS: Joining me now "Wall Street Journal" columnist John Fund, "New York Daily News" columnist Michael Goodwin, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Let's start with these poll numbers first, John Fund. The president is -- it just gets worse.
JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, the war in Iraq continues, and Americans don't feel that there's an obvious exit strategy or standards for success. As long as that happens, the president's numbers are going to remain about there. The problem is what that also does to his domestic agenda, it grounds it.
DOBBS: And Michael, on every question asked, whether it's about the economy, which, by, you know, most historical standards is doing pretty dog gone well, whether it is on illegal immigration, you name the issue, he's getting killed.
MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Right, I mean, he is the commander in chief, and he is the chief executive of our country. And things are not going well. Most people think the country's on the wrong track for a number of reasons, maybe very particular to the locale, but in general, as John said about Iraq, I think these are things that always work against the president.
He hasn't gotten much done for a long time. When we reviewed recently what were the successes -- I mean, other than the two Supreme Court appointees, he's not had a lot of good news lately, and there is none on the horizon that we can see right now.
DOBBS: All right. Give the president and his advisers some free advise, Jeffrey Toobin.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tax cuts, that's what Republicans do best. That's what they are going to do. They are going to get rid of the estate tax. They are going to try to keep trying to cut taxes. That's what they will do. You asked for advice, I gave it to you.
DOBBS: Do you agree? Is that the only advice you could agree with, John Fund?
FUND: Lou, acknowledge that by historical standards in most broad indices, the economy is doing pretty well. You can date the economy doing pretty well in the broad indices from the supply-side tax cuts on dividends, capital gains and investment in early 2003. And even most economists if they are not named Paul Krugman will agree with that.
DOBBS: Well, you don't want to press me too far on this. I was trying to get at the, if you will, the superficial read, inflation, unemployment and not go too far into the fact that we have more stimulus in this economy than at any time in peacetime in this country's history.
FUND: Although this Fed has been ratcheting up interest rates, so we're cooling down.
DOBBS: Oh yes they have.
FUND: We're cooling down.
DOBBS: They certainly have. This economy is creating great insecurity in the job market, as you know. Working men and women in this country are getting hammered. Name the last thing this administration did, this Congress did, for working men and women in this country.
FUND: Well, I think tort reform was a big deal last year, because tort reform ultimately does reduce the cost of litigation.
DOBBS: I mean more direct. You're going to have a causal chain there that is going to stretch to infinity.
FUND: Let me be very blunt.
DOBBS: Triple that. FUND: Congress does most things well when they do as little as possible. Government is a big blundering creature that tends to break things when it moves around in the economy.
DOBBS: This big blundering creature, as John Fund calls it, do you think they are going to blunder into amnesty for illegal aliens? Or do you think they are going to find the good judgment, sense and honesty to put border security first and to secure our nation's ports before creating new, dramatic legislation?
GOODWIN: Well, I'm not a cockeyed optimist on this. I do think that when you talk about all of the things that have happened about this legislation, all we're talking about are the details of an amnesty program. We're not really talking about at all border security. You're not hearing new details coming about how they are going to secure the borders. All it's about is how we are fidgeting with the amnesty program.
DOBBS: But well we did a little checking in point of fact. Not a dime appropriated for border security. Not a dime appropriated to administer this.
GOODWIN: But the president could do this on his own.
TOOBIN: Congress is being responsive to the public, in that, the public is divvied. The public is not behind one approach on immigration. And I think the gridlock in Congress is reflective of the divisions in the society.
DOBBS: Most of the polls show that Americans want the border secured. They want the ports secured. There is no two ways about it. Comprehensive immigration is the contrived language of the administration pushing a guest-worker program.
It became that of Senator Kennedy, Senator McCain and all of the happy fellows who stood up there Thursday last and said, we did a great thing. They said on Friday, however, that politics had trumped good policy. It was nonsense policy.
FUND: Well, the country is divided, Lou. We had a congressional race in San Diego yesterday. The good news for immigration opponents was that the Republican who led was a former lobbyist for the anti- immigration forces. The bad news is, though...
DOBBS: The anti-immigration?
FUND: Oh, yes. FAIR does support limits on both legal and illegal immigration, so it's both. That's a fair statement.
DOBBS: No pun intended.
FUND: But about half the people who voted in that election voted for Kennedy to support the McCain/Kennedy immigration approach. And this is in San Diego, a district on the boarder.
DOBBS: Duke Cunningham's, the disgraced Congressman who is out. Michael Goodwin, the idea that we would be sitting here talking about illegal immigration and approval ratings plummeting, four generals now saying we have got to get rid of Donald Rumsfeld, your reaction?
GOODWIN: Well, I think the time has come that it is hard to defend the policy. I mean, we still don't seem to know where the insurgency is coming from. We're now -- this talk of the sectarian violence, it is not a civil war, it is a civil war. It doesn't matter what you say, a lot of people are getting killed, including our troops.
TOOBIN: More American troops killed in April than in March. The numbers have gone back up. I don't understand why people care who is the secretary of defense. The policy is what matters, not the individual. The same policy with a different cabinet secretary, I think, makes absolutely no difference.
FUND: Lou, my nephew, Michael, is back from the seventh Marines in Iraq two days ago. He says morale is still very high and not everything is being reported as it should be reported. And I am going to be brief, Michael, I'll report back to you.
DOBBS: Well, our best to your source, Michael, on this. My source is 2,300 of our troops dead, more than 8,000 unable to return to duty.
FUND: And no attack on our homeland in five and a half years.
TOOBIN: Because of the invasion of Iraq?
FUND: They may be related.
TOOBIN: They may.
DOBBS: We have to go. My producer is telling me that as much as I'd like to argue this with you, it is time to go, and to say thank you, Jeffrey. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, John.
I think we can say safely to be continued.
Still ahead, more of your thoughts and the results of our poll tonight. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Our poll results, 96 percent of you do not believe we can have meaningful reform of our immigration laws without first securing our borders and ports.
We went long with our panel. Time for only one of your final thoughts tonight. This email from Jean in Florida, "The outsourcing of American jobs, unsecured borders, and the ever-increasing number of illegal immigrants is proof that our elected representatives do not represent American citizens. If I am not mistaken, taxation without representation describes what is happening to our middle class. Tea, anyone?"
Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" begins right now with Heidi Collins -- Heidi.
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