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Lou Dobbs Tonight
White House New Chief of Staff Signals Staff Shake-Up; Defending Rumsfeld
Aired April 17, 2006 - 17:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush's new chief of staff promising to refresh and reenergize the White House. But can President Bush regain political initiative without changing his policies?
We'll be going live to the White House.
Also tonight, the Pentagon has launched an all-out effort to put down another insurgency. This one against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld by some retired generals. Rumsfeld's critics are refusing to back down. One of those critics is our guest here tonight, General John Batiste.
Also tonight, the illegal alien lobby is planning massive protests on May 1st, demanding amnesty for millions of illegal aliens and calling for boycotts. I'll be talking with two senators, Senator Jon Kyl and Senator John Cornyn, who say these protests will not shake their determination to first secure our borders.
And we'll have a special report on the amnesty movements, efforts to have me fired. They say that I'm against illegal -- immigration, and I'm for border security. It turns out they are right on both counts.
We'll have that report and a great deal more here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT," news, debate and opinion, for Monday, April 17th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
President Bush's new chief of staff, Josh Bolten, today declared he is determined to reenergize the Bush White House. Bolten indicated there could be major staff changes at the White House to help advance the president's second-term agenda. But some say nothing less than a change in the president's policies can lift his poll numbers, numbers that are at the lowest of his presidency.
Suzanne Malveaux reports on the White House strategy to win back political initiative.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon on efforts to silence critics of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
We begin with Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, President Bush just has two and a half years left to get anything done. His own press secretary conceding that there's very little time. So, of course, the new chief of staff, Josh Bolten, wants to get in there as quickly as possible and get a new team in place sooner as opposed to later. We saw President Bush, of course, and Josh Bolten today making it very clear to his staff that he is giving them a graceful way out before he makes some potential changes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice over): White House staff changes are on the way.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Josh has hit the ground running as chief of staff.
MALVEAUX: Josh Bolten, the president's new chief of staff, told senior advisers in his first closed door Monday morning meeting...
MCCLELLAN: If you are thinking about leaving sometime in the near future now would be a good time to do it.
MALVEAUX: Because Bolten said in the weeks ahead he will be making personnel changes to refresh and reenergize the president's team, using his first seven to 10 days on the job to evaluate how to improve White House operations. Some Republican strategists and Bush administration officials say Bolten is specifically focusing on White House communication and legislative affairs.
Press Secretary Scott McClellan was asked whether he had any plans to leave.
MCCLELLAN: Look, I never speculate about personal matters.
MALVEAUX: But the White House is talking about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Breaking with tradition to remain mum on the issue, the president interrupted his Easter holiday to put out a statement, saying "he has my full support." White House aides insist despite calls for Rumsfeld to resign now coming from six retired generals Rumsfeld is here to stay.
MCCLELLAN: What the president did on Friday was make a strong statement reiterating his full support for Secretary Rumsfeld.
MALVEAUX: But speculation continues to swirl around the fate of Treasury Secretary John Snow. He appeared by the president's side today as he has over the past several weeks to deliver good economic numbers but has failed to get the kind of robust public endorsement Mr. Bush offered his defense secretary. McClellan says Bolten's first priority will be to fill positions that are already vacant, including his old job as director of the Office of Management and Budget and that of domestic policy adviser held by Claude Allen, who resigned in February.
(END VIDEOTAPE) MALVEAUX: And it's unclear, of course, Lou, just how extensive these staff changes are going to be, but Bolten says that he wants to put his stamp on things -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
Suzanne Malveaux, from the White House.
As Suzanne just reported, the White House insists no staff changes are required at the top of the Pentagon. At the same time, the Pentagon has launched a coordinated campaign to put down the revolt from some former generals.
Jamie McIntyre reports now from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Under fire from a half-dozen recently retired U.S. commanders for his handling of the war in Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is rallying a quick reaction force of two, three and four-star retired officers in an attempt to outrank and outflank his critics. His strategy includes radio appearances like this one on "The Rush Limbaugh Show."
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: This, too, will pass. The sharper the criticism comes, sometimes the sharper the defense comes from people who don't agree with the critics.
MCINTYRE: And some of those Rumsfeld defenders are getting ammunition from the Pentagon press office in the form of bullet points aimed at refuting the criticism that Rumsfeld ignores the advice of his top brass. "Senior military leaders have been involved to an unprecedented degree in every decision-making process," says the talking points e-mailed to retired generals and military analysts Friday.
It's no coincidence those verbatim words showed up Monday in a "Wall Street Journal" opinion piece entitled "In Defense of Donald Rumsfeld," signed by four long-retired generals who blasted Rumsfeld's detractors. Some may feel he's been "... unfair, arrogant and autocratic..." they wrote, but argued "... those sentiments and feelings are irrelevant" as long as Rumsfeld "... retains the confidence of the commander in chief."
The piece concludes, "So, let's all breathe into a bag and get on in winning the global war against radical Islam."
One of CNN's military analysts, retired Brigadier General David Grange, says he thinks the dispute is less about tactics and more about tact, or Rumsfeld's notorious lack thereafter.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think a lot of it, they don't like the secretary's management style. And it is a bit gruff, I think, at times, from what I have -- what I have heard. And I think that's the biggest problem. I think it would be inappropriate right now just for -- to accomplish the mission that this country has taken on with the war in Iraq to have Secretary Rumsfeld step down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now, Rumsfeld is planning to meet Tuesday afternoon with TV military analysts, like General Grange. And in the case of CNN, General Shepperd will be attending. But the Pentagon press office says that the hastily-arranged meeting is nothing new. They say the simply arranged it on short notice because a cancellation opened up a big hole in Rumsfeld's schedule.
DOBBS: And General John Batiste will be there as well. Correct, Jamie?
MCINTYRE: I'm not sure. Will he?
DOBBS: Well, I'm asking you, partner.
MCINTYRE: I don't know. They have not shared with us the guest list. So, the only people we know for sure are the people from CNN, military analysts who were invited. It's not an open event.
DOBBS: Terrific. Thank you very much, Jamie McIntyre.
In the war in Iraq, U.S. Marines say they killed dozens of insurgents in a major battle in Al Anbar province. Only one Marine was wounded in the engagement.
CNN Correspondent Arwa Damon is embedded with the Marines and has this exclusive report from Ramadi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A complex attack on the governor's compound in central Ramadi. Mortars fired, followed by a suicide car bomber who tried to detonate himself at this location. U.S. Marines fired at that vehicle. It turned around and ended up targeting another Marine observation post, wounding one Marine in that attack.
Meanwhile, at the governor's compound, fire coming from the south, mortars and small arms. And from the north, from a mosque, RPGs and heavy machine-gun fire. The gun battle lasted for an hour.
Marines calling in quick reaction forces to strike at the mosque they were receiving the heavy fire from. Quick reaction forces responded, firing two tank rounds into the mosque. Marines say that they killed dozens of insurgents in that strike on the mosque, also killing another three insurgents, a three-man mortar team that was firing at them from the vicinity of a graveyard.
Now, this is not an uncommon course for this location, the governor's compound. Commanders say that they come under attack here four to five times a day, be it a single potshot that is fired or a complex attack like the one that we witnessed earlier this morning. Now, commanders do say that while this location does come under heavy attack, and that Ramadi does remain a very dangerous place for most of its residents, they say daily life is very violent, there has been progress made. They say that now the Iraqi army is some three brigades strong and an Iraqi police force is being trained, all in an effort to try to control the insurgency here.
Arwa Damon, CNN, Ramadi, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: There's been a sharp increase in the number of American casualties in Al Anbar province over the past two weeks. Four of our Marines were killed in combat in the province over the weekend. Forty-eight of our troops have now been killed in the first half of April in Iraq, 2,377 of our troops have been killed in Iraq since the war began.
There are troubling new questions tonight about Iran's escalating nuclear threat to the rest of the world. The Iranian president says Iran has begun testing and researching a new type of centrifuge. Experts say such technology could help the Iranians build nuclear weapons much more quickly than many had expected. But some analysts say the Iranian president could be exaggerating Iran's nuclear capabilities.
In Israel, a Palestinian suicide bomber today killed nine people outside a restaurant in Tel Aviv during the Passover holiday. The Palestinian group, Islamic Jihad, claimed responsibility. It was the deadliest attack against Israelis in more than a year.
The suicide attack was the first since the radical Islamist movement Hamas took over the Palestinian government. A spokesman for Hamas claimed the Palestinian people "have the right to defend themselves," as he put it. Israel threatened to respond to the attack with what it called "appropriate means." No further details offered.
Still ahead, the president of communist China to arrive in the United States this week, but is China a friend or foe of the United States? We'll have a report.
And retired Major General John Batiste is among our guests here tonight, one of six retired generals demanding the resignation of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld.
And illegal aliens and their supporters are planning yet another nationwide demonstration and boycott on May 1st. This time, the goal among the goals, have me fired.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As President Bush prepares to welcome communist Chinese president Hu Jintao to the White House Thursday, Beijing is cracking down on the media. Communist authorities are scrubbing foreign news footage from television broadcasts and banning Chinese language editions of foreign magazines.
Chinese Web sites have agreed to censor themselves. The communist party says muzzling the media is part of "building a socialist spiritual civilization."
American Internet companies operating in China have also agreed to go along with the government plan.
Just as communist China routinely disregards press freedoms at home, it also shows little willingness to play by the rules of international conduct. Yet, many in the Bush administration are willing to give China the benefit of the doubt, but with considerable risk.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): China spending tens of billions on its military buildup and supports the most heinous rogue nations in the world, propping up the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-il, embracing the anti-U.S. rhetoric of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, supporting strongman Robert Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe, defending and supporting Sudan, and also giving support to the regime in Burma.
JOHN TKACIK, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: China has pretensions of becoming the new -- another new world superpower, and all of those countries around the world that have been harassed are now told by the Chinese, you don't have to worry about being pressured by the United States. We will back you up
PILGRIM: The State Department plans on complaining when the Chinese president visits this week.
SEAN MCCORMACK, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: In as much as China tries to reinforce negative behaviors among other countries around the world, whether that be Iran or elsewhere, then, of course, we will raise those issues with -- with China.
PILGRIM: The Pentagon is more blunt. In this year's Quadrennial Defense Review, it names China as a potential military rival. "China has the greatest potential to compete militarily with the United States."
The QDR also points out the secrecy of China's military buildup, stating, "The outside world has little knowledge of Chinese motivations and decision-making... supporting its military modernization." Adding, "The pace and scope of China's military buildup already puts regional military balances at risk."
CURT CAMPBELL, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: They are not interested in promoting democracy for obvious reasons, and their primary interests right now are to secure access to energy and raw materials that allows the great Chinese engine of growth to continue.
PILGRIM: The United States takes a soft tone with China, calling for it to become a stakeholder in the world community.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And today, Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick said China needs to help on the issue of North Korea, saying China needs to be a participant, recognize they have an interest in solving this problem. And many others, too -- Lou.
DOBBS: Is it calling the Chinese fools to tell them that they have an interest?
PILGRIM: It seems pretty obvious they should have an interest, but they don't act like they do most of the time.
DOBBS: Nor does the U.S. State Department in dealing with communist China. Remarkable.
Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim. Good to have you back.
In a stunning development, China has rocketed ahead of Britain and France to become the world's fourth largest economy. China's economy grew by more than 10 percent over the first quarter of the year. It is now surpassed only by Germany, Japan, and, of course, the United States. China's explosive growth beat all economic forecasts, and it's driving up world prices for industrial raw material as it feeds an enlarging consumer and production economy.
Crude oil prices set a record today, closing above $70 a barrel for the first time in history. Fears over the Iranian nuclear standoff and rising demand in Asia helped push prices higher.
Gasoline prices continue their climb, a further assault on America's struggle middle class. Nationally, a gallon of glass averaging $2.78, up 54 cents from a year ago. Prices are even higher in parts of the country such as California, at $2.94, New York, $2.93. Washington, D.C., residents paying the highest price in the country, $2.97.
Still ahead here, our government's broken promises on immigration reform. Immigration laws already on the books being completely ignored by your government.
And the White House continues its efforts to shore up support for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. I'll be talking with one of the six retired generals now calling for Rumsfeld's resignation.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Proposals for illegal alien amnesty before Congress contain various sanctions. Employers would be punished for hiring illegal aliens, some aliens would be required to leave if they haven't resided in the United States for a certain period of time. However, all of these sanctions are only as good, of course, as the enforcement behind them. And in the past, the will to enforce employer sanctions has been nonexistent.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The Immigration and Reform Act of 1986 promised a lot of enforcement but delivered very little. Employers who hired illegal aliens were to be fined as much as $10,000 for each alien, but only three employers were fined in 2004.
The Social Security Administration was to conduct a study on establishing a new validation system. Twenty years later, there is still no mandate for employers to check Social Security numbers against a database.
The comptroller general was to investigate a counterfeit-proof Social Security card using holograms and magnetic strips. Today, bogus Social Security cards are more than abundant.
ROY BECK, NUMBERSUSA: The American people were totally duped in 1986. Senator Kennedy, who is proposing the big compromise right now, supposedly, that has enforcement and amnesty, he was the one that was behind 1986, making sure that that law would never be enforced.
SYLVESTER: The government never provided a system large enough for all employers to check applicants' legal status, and there were provisions that actually discouraged companies from following enforcement rules.
DAVE SIMCOX, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: The employer could not ask for specific documents that he thought were more reliable because the anti-discrimination measure built into the bill forbade him from doing that.
SYLVESTER: What the 1986 act did do was provide amnesty for three million illegal aliens. Now Congress is deciding whether to grant amnesty to as many as 20 million illegal aliens in exchange for new enforcement measures.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: I keep telling my colleagues in the Senate, what do you think is different about what you're proposing than what was proposed in 1986? And what do you think will be different about the outcome? It is exactly the same thing.
SYLVESTER: The enforcement promises that were made in 1986 weren't kept, but they're still being recycled today.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And soon after the 1986 law passed, immigration agents tried to do work site enforcement. Companies got on the phones with their lawmakers and complained, and the agents were then told to back off. Well, that sent a signal that Washington wanted immigration laws on the books but did not really want them enforced, which is one of the reasons why we've ended up with the illegal immigration crisis we have today -- Lou.
DOBBS: Transparency in government, Lisa. Thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Well, the French have come up with a plan to deal with their illegal immigration problem, and illegal aliens in France will be paid to leave. The newspaper "Le Figaro," will pay adults $2,400 to go back to their home country, an additional $600 per child.
Local officials are actively looking for takers. So far, only 78 people in France have accepted the payoff.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts tonight.
Bob in Pennsylvania, "Lou, the middle class should change its name to 'illegal middle class' and maybe Congress would listen to us."
Judy in Iowa, "No other country in the world feels they have the right to enter the United States and demand citizenship. Why do the Mexicans feel they have more rights than anyone else?"
Glenda in Washington, "Lou, with illegal immigrants clamoring to become American citizens, you'd think they would know that the U.S. does not recognize May Day, as it is for demonstrations by socialists, communists and anarchist groups. Maybe they should start reading up on what America stands for before protesting to become legal citizens."
And Devin in Missouri, "The idea of a day without illegal immigrants on May 1st is a fabulous idea. I wonder what we can do to get them to extend it to a full year?"
Ken in Washington, "A day without Mexicans on May 1st? What a wonderful idea. Perhaps American citizens will find out they don't need illegal immigrants after all."
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts coming up here later in the broadcast.
Our poll tonight, newly appointed White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten today told senior White House aides to be prepared for more staff changes in an effort to "refresh and reenergize" the Bush administration. In our poll tonight, please tell us, what do you believe is need to refresh and reenergize the Bush administration, staff changes or policy changes?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have results later here as well.
Coming up next, illegal aliens and their supporters are trying once again to stop me from speaking the truth about this nation's illegal alien crisis and our absolute lack of border and port security. They want me to be fired by CNN. We'll tell you all about it coming up.
And senators Jon Kyl and John Cornyn, two fierce opponents of illegal alien amnesty, will be my guests.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld under fire tonight. I'll talk with one of the retired generals calling for Rumsfeld's resignation.
Three of the nation's most respected political analysts join us coming up here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, a group in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens has begun what it calls a national effort to force me and this program off the air. They want me fired. And the group says I should no longer be allowed to speak the truth about the nation's illegal alien crisis, all because I'm against illegal immigration and because I'm for border security.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Supporters of amnesty for illegal aliens are now targeting LOU DOBBS TONIGHT by launching a campaign to remove Dobbs from CNN's air. The movement is spearheaded by Jon Garrido, a former Tucson, Arizona, city employee who is contemplating a run for the Senate. He says Dobbs is making a ton of money for CNN bashing illegal immigration.
But instead of targeting CNN, the group is going after AOL, also owned by CNN's parent company, Time Warner.
ROBERT THOMPSON, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: I think the idea here is that Lou Dobbs is too tough of a target. He's -- his ratings are really high. He is really an anchor of that -- of that operation, but you can go after other things in the corporate family which may be more vulnerable to these kinds of complaints.
WIAN: Garrido refused to be interviewed. Instead, he wrote this response: "We do not want to promote the Lou Dobbs show. We want to remove it from CNN. Our message is to all Hispanics is to no longer agree to interviews with Lou Dobbs."
The so-called "Ax AOL" campaign states that Dobbs engages in "trashing of Hispanic Latinos" and calls him "... the national leader of promoting HR 4437," the border security bill passed by the House of Representatives. In fact, Dobbs does neither. Earlier this month he interviewed the bill's sponsor, Republican Congressman James Sensenbrenner.
DOBBS: I'd like to take some time and just set the record straight on some very critically important issues.
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: Sure.
DOBBS: One, why does the Sensenbrenner legislation -- and this is something I disagree with as well -- make it a felony for an illegal alien in this country, rather than a misdemeanor?
SENSENBRENNER: I offered an amendment to reduce the felony penalty to a misdemeanor.
WIAN: An AOL spokesman says the company is not worried about the effort to convince Latinos to drop the service. CNN says, "We have absolutely no intent to relieve Lou Dobbs of his duties. Anyone who actually watches LOU DOBBS TONIGHT knows that Lou is not anti- immigration but, through his reports, merely wants to hold government officials accountable."
The Ax AOL campaign says it will begin targeting CNN advertisers if the initial effort fails.
It's not the first time illegal alien amnesty advocates have protested LOU DOBBS TONIGHT. They've picketed CNN's Atlanta headquarters in February to no effect.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Financial and media analysts say the latest effort also stands little chance of success, one even saying, Lou, that kicking you off the air would set a very dangerous precedent. Lou?
DOBBS: Well as you might guess, Casey, I couldn't agree more. I could think of nothing more dangerous. It's -- the idea that they would choose to go after AOL is peculiar. It's a free country, they're entitled to do what they will.
But the idea that they would suggest that I'm in -- among those, I mean, I've got a clear record on this broadcast of what I believe and what I think is appropriate, and what I've advocated. And what I've advocated is border security and what I've advocated is a complete, complete end to illegal immigration in this country. If anybody was going to get a felony charge, I think it should be the employers of this country that are hiring illegal labor.
WIAN: It's another distortion and something we hear from the pro-amnesty side all the time, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's go to one other issue. What is the latest you hear about this May 1st, it's -- that date chosen for obvious reasons, it's a rather radical date, if I can put it that way, May 1st for demonstrations in favor of amnesty against border security and a boycott.
WIAN: Promoters are pushing forward with that effort, but as we reported last week, they are having a lot of trouble -- excuse me, Lou. They are having a lot of trouble getting support from the entire Latino and Hispanic community. A lot of people realize that...
DOBBS: ... Casey, I'm going to interrupt you, if I may, because we've fallen victim to live television there. If you could just repeat what you had said there.
WIAN: Well as we reported last week, they are pushing forward with this effort for the May day boycott, but they are now running into a lot of barriers.
A lot of people in the Hispanic community are now saying that this is not a good idea, to keep school children home from school and to economically target businesses that in many respects will only hurt the Hispanics that they say they are trying to help, Lou.
DOBBS: And you said Hispanics. And this press release talked about Hispanics as well. Now, if these groups want to use Hispanic as if it's some sort of monolithic, homogeneous description of a group of people in this country, they are utterly wrong. This is about illegal immigration. This is about amnesty, blanket amnesty, and this is about subordinating border security to their interest and I don't think that's going to work either. Do you?
WIAN: No, I don't think it will, Lou. And we wanted to ask, of course, the promoter of this effort to get you off the air, those very questions and he declined, as we reported, to talk to us, Lou.
DOBBS: Well he's obviously no fan of free speech of any kind. Thank you very much, I appreciate it, Casey Wian.
Senator Jon Kyl and Senator John Cornyn are fierce opponents of amnesty for illegal aliens. The senators say any immigration reform legislation that passes Congress must not give illegal aliens a quick path to citizenship. In fact, they say they'll fight for immigration -- their immigration reform legislation when the Senate returns next week from their vacation. Senator Jon Kyl and Senator John Cornyn join us now. Good to have you with us, senators.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Thank you, Lou.
And I should say, Senator Jon Kyl coming to us from Arizona and Senator Cornyn obviously from Texas. Let me begin with you, if I may, Senator Cornyn. This Martinez-Hagel compromise, it was an utter fraud, wasn't it?
CORNYN: Well, you know, the interesting thing, Lou, is that the so-called compromise that Senator Hagel and Senator Martinez promoted really was a compromise among people who agreed with the McCain- Kennedy bill.
It really made no effort to reach across to others who are interesting in finding a solution, people like Senator Kyl and myself. But one, as you point out, that does not repeat the mistake of the amnesty that was granted in 1986.
DOBBS: Your legislation with Senator Kyl, as the two sponsors, call for first border security and then dealing with reforming our completely confounded immigration system and our all-but-ignored immigration laws in this country. Why won't the senators have any part of first dealing with the critical issue of dealing with border security?
CORNYN: Well Senator Isakson, let me a stab at that. Senator Isakson has an amendment, which we were refused the opportunity to present, to debate and to vote on. And that's actually what actually derailed the bill after two weeks of debate, which would require employer verification and border security before we would go on and do other things, which I think has a lot of common sense. Because we know that this is a big, unwieldy system that until we take care to make sure that all parts of it work, we're going to find ourselves back in the same mess we're currently in.
DOBBS: Senator Kyl -- by the way, Senator Kyl, I should say, first of all, congratulations to you for being selected one of the 10 best senators by "Time" magazine. That's a great honor and congratulations.
SENATOR JON KYL (R-AZ), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Thank you.
DOBBS: The idea that the United States Senate, cannot come to terms with border security as a condition precedent to controlling immigration and controlling immigration as necessary to in any way effectively reform it, boggles the mind of millions, tens of millions of Americans. Why is that the case?
KYL: I think part of it is politics, Lou. One reason the Democrat majority leader would not even allow votes on our amendments is because I think they'd rather have an issue than a bill.
And, secondly, because it's going to take real effort to actually fulfill the commitments of enforcement. As Judd Gregg, the chairman of the budget committee, asked a group of Republicans, "You know, it's all fine to have all of these authorizations for more of this and more of that, but where are you going to get the money? Are you going to be willing to appropriate the funds?"
Neither the administration's budget nor the appropriations from the Congress have been enough yet to achieve those objectives. And so are we going to see a new leaf turned over here, or is it going to be the same old story that your presentation about 15 minutes ago in that story talked about?
DOBBS: I think you've just answered the question. It was a fraud, as Senators McCain and Kennedy in particular, Senator Specter and Senator Martinez and others stood up there and said, "Good politics are -- bad politics trump good policy." That was a fraud, because there was no way in which to finance and to build out the agencies and the staffing and the bureaucracy that would be necessary to go through background checks, all of the processes that they'd laid out in that compromise, was there?
KYL: There is a new study that Senator Cornyn was just telling me about, I haven't seen yet, that talks about the costs associated with this. They are going to be significant. And what my constituents here in Arizona are asking me is this, "Look, we've seen no evidence that you've, meaning the government, has been willing to enforce the law in the past. And so what evidence can you give us that you intend to enforce this law?" It's fine to have the words on paper. The question is, will it be followed up with action? And that's the real difficult question to answer here.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both these questions. When you -- when you all go back to Washington D.C., you're going to be lining up the Judiciary Committee, where this still rests, with the leadership of Senator Frist -- what is the urgency for this -- this amnesty program, this guest-worker program when four and a half years after September 11th, we do not have border security, as you both point out and deal with in your own legislation. And we don't have port security? Who in the world thinks we could reform immigration if we can't control it?
Senator Cornyn, if I may turn you to first.
CORNYN: Well, I think what we've seen is, although the House had a little bit different approach, talking about border security...
DOBBS: Right.
CORNYN: ... first and did not deal with the other aspects of comprehensive immigration reform, I think clearly we've got to deal with that first. And I think, in order to build the credibility that's been discussed.
But, unfortunately, from a political standpoint, they are different -- there are so many different people involved, stakeholders, in this issue that some say, "Well, we're not going to vote for this, unless we have an opportunity to vote on that." And that's why I think you've seen the sort of comprehensive approach, albeit misguided, I believe, in the current proposal.
But I do think we can -- we can get there, but I think we have -- we have to deal with the security issues, the employer verification issue, which, as you know, was one of the main reasons the '86 amnesty failed entirely, because there's no employer verification requirement.
DOBBS: And one of the fellows standing up there on that press conference on that Thursday, when the senators were congratulating one another was Senator Ted Kennedy, who effectively gutted any enforcement provisions with the 1986 amnesty.
This looks like, as the saying goes, deja vu all over again, only the difference is this time middle class, working men and women in this country, American citizens, about 280 million of them, let's take an estimate, Senator Kyl. They've had a belly full of this, don't you think?
KYL: You know, I think one of the most important things in this debate has gone significantly overlooked and that is that when we talk about a temporary worker program, we mean temporary permits when the jobs are here.
DOBBS: Right.
KYL: When the other version of the bill is presented, the one that's on the Senate floor right now, the minute a person gets a temporary work permit, he can self-petition for a green card, meaning legal permanent residency.
That's never been the law in the past. What that means is that even though there aren't jobs for that individual after he gets that status, he's going to be able to be here permanently. We think it should be dependent upon the availability of a job, and therefore temporary.
DOBBS: And we thank you both for being here and we look forward, as I know you do, to next week, watching you all take on the people's business. It will be interesting to see the influence of other interests in this discussion, as we watch the people's business be taken care of it. It will be the people's business, right, gentlemen?
Senator John Cornyn, Senator Jon Kyl, we thank you both.
Still ahead, I'll be talking with retired Major General John Batiste who is among those generals calling for the resignation of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, and I'll talk with three of the country's very best political analysts with their thoughts on a deepening political crisis at the White House, and perhaps the onset of a crisis for a nation and an economy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Pentagon has launched a coordinated effort to silence critics of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, or at least rebut them. The Pentagon campaign includes television appearances by Rumsfeld supporters, newspaper editorials, a memo outlining key talking points.
But the secretary's critics refuse to back down. They still demand Rumsfeld's resignation. One of those critics, Major General John Batiste, he commanded the First Infantry division in Iraq, and joins us tonight from Rochester, New York. General, good to have you with us.
MAJ. GEN. JOHN BATISTE, U.S. ARMY (RET): Lou, good evening. How are you?
DOBBS: Outstanding. And I trust that you are still calling for the secretary's resignation?
BATISTE: Yes, I am. It's a matter of accountability and competency.
DOBBS: General, you know, much is being made of the fact that really five generals, in quick order, came out here to call for his resignation, some suggestion it was coordinated in any way. You say that's not the case?
BATISTE: No, it's not the case. We are not talking about this.
DOBBS: And you've not talked with any of the other generals who have joined in the call for his resignation, correct?
BATISTE: I had a brief phone call with Paul Eaton, and beyond that, none.
DOBBS: Let's talk about one of the -- one of the criticisms that of this, and why haven't the generals, why weren't the generals asserting themselves more while they were in uniform and in command. Your answer?
BATISTE: In uniform, you can bet we asserted ourselves, and you recall that we have a special culture, where we stay within our chain of command. And there's debate. There's great debate. Sometimes heated. But when the commander makes a decision, you have two options. One, you can salute and execute the best idea you've ever heard, or you can get out. And in my case, I chose to stay and fight with my soldiers.
It's interesting, though, that I retired on principle in part, so you and I could have this discussion this evening. If I was in uniform, I couldn't do this. I'd be violating the uniform code of military justice.
DOBBS: And as you -- and as we have reported here, General, I just wanted to have it on the record, I wanted to hear you say that, I know our audience did as well.
General David Grange, who is the military analyst here, on this broadcast, was very supportive of you, and he, without having talked to you, knew that you had one of the reasons in your thinking was that your support of your troops, your loyalty to them, your concern for them. He also, as I recall, commanded, I believe, the First Infantry Division some years ago as well.
He has a high regard for you. You have a high regard throughout the military. What would you have the United States military right now, if Rumsfeld steps down, what should the general staff of the United States Army and the leadership of the Marine Corps, our military in Iraq, be doing?
BATISTE: Lou, we've got the best military in the world. And operationally and tactically, we're winning it on the backs of our soldiers, our Marines, our airmen, our sailors and our incredible families that support them every day. To answer your question, that's really a decision for the secretary of defense, whoever that person may be. That's a big -- a big choice, big decision he needs to make.
That's why we need a new secretary of defense. We have one now who has repeatedly made strategic mistakes, one after the other. And my question is, if we're going to continue the war on terrorism for a long time, and I suspect we are, why would we want to continue riding the same horse, where he has such a dismal track record?
DOBBS: General, and this has to be asked, because this military as terrific as it is, no one supports our men and women in uniform more than me. I have to tell you, I have great questions about the command staff of our military, the general staff.
We've been in Iraq for three years. I've watched, as did all Americans, a brilliant campaign to take Baghdad. The difficulty of fighting this insurgency is clear. I listened to Donald Rumsfeld talk about thugs and dead-enders when the insurgency was first manifesting itself in Iraq, talk of 10,000, to 20,000 members of the insurgency, keeping at bay the world's most powerful military. What do you say to those -- and I'm not, I will put myself among them. What do you say to those who say this military should be delivering more to the men and women we're putting in harm's way?
BATISTE: Lou, I think we went to war with the wrong war plan. We had 12 years of deliberate planning that went on, the most intensive analytic process you've ever seen.
DOBBS: Right.
BATISTE: And multiple secretaries of defense supported by their chairman and the joint staffs that supported them approved these plans. It got better and better every single year. So why, then, did we commit ourselves with one-third of the number of troops that we needed to, a, take down a regime and then, b, build the peace. The building the peace part is the hardest part. If you look at the history of Iraq, you know that there's going to be an insurgency. There is no question. The country of Iraq is not homogeneous at all.
The British drew a boundary, a lady named Gertrude Bell did it in the 1920s, and it lumped together all of these ethnic and tribal and religious, an incredible mix that just doesn't come together very well. So we had to anticipate this.
DOBBS: And as I understand it, general, we did, with a plan 10 years in the making, which was thrown aside, correct?
BATISTE: That's exactly what I'm saying.
DOBBS: General John Batiste, we thank you for being here. We hope you'll come back, soon, so we can continue this discussion. We appreciate your time and your thoughts.
BATISTE: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour her on CNN, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf, tell us about it.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Lou. Following lots of stories. First of all, can it get any worse for Republicans? You'll find out in just a few moments.
There's a new poll on Congress and the president's approval rating. We're going to give you the numbers and we'll take you a closer look whether Americans are looking for wholesale change come November.
Also, Rudy Giuliani, we'll find out why the Reverend Jerry Falwell won't back him if the former New York mayor runs for president.
And inside Opus Dei, the secret Roman Catholic group takes on "The Da Vinci Code" film, releases a video of its own.
Plus, there are new developments happening right now in the fight against cancer. Important information. A drug that offers some high hope for high-risk patients. Lou, all that coming up right at the top of the hour.
DOBBS: Looking forward to it, Wolf, thank you.
Still ahead here, the new White House chief of staff demands reenergize or get out. Three of the nation's best political analysts join me to tell us who might stay, who might go and what difference it all might make. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Former political director of the Reagan White House, Ed Rollins joins me now, as does "New York Daily News" columnist Michael Goodwin and Democratic political strategist Hank Sheinkopf.
Reenergize and if you're planning to leave later, Ed, go now. Welcome Josh Bolten.
ED ROLLINS, FMR. WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIR.: Well, the bottom line is josh was there before. He was the deputy. They do need reenergized, whatever the term may be. But who is going to leave? Is Karl Rove going to leave? I doubt that. So is the president going to change his policies? I doubt that. So, you know, my sense is I wish them all well, and they need a new plan and they need a new agenda, but I'm not sure just by moving a bunch of staffs at second level they are going to make that difference.
DOBBS: Poor Treasury Secretary John Snow in trail today but not being patted on the back, even the head. What's going on, Michael?
MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: He's probably the first and the easiest because he's the low-hanging fruit in all of this. And I think that if getting rid of John Snow is all they do, it won't make much of a difference in how this country perceives this White House.
DOBBS: Hank, your thoughts, what is it going to take?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEM. POLITICAL CONSULTANT: It's going the take a lot more than cosmetics. They are going to have to come up with a new line. And the purpose of the new chief of staff ought to be to come up with a new line that work politically that they can then hammer home to protect their incumbents in the House. They are not going to be able to do that, the way this is set up right now.
DOBBS: Are you ready to go to war with Iran?
SHEINKOPF: I'm not ready to go to war -- I am not ready to see another American young man or young woman go to war with anybody yet. I don't know what the solution is, but wagging the saber is probably not helpful in this moment. Sanctions probably work. Something has to work and work quickly.
DOBBS: Well, Tony Blair says he's not in the equation. What do you think, Michael?
GOODWIN: Well, I think he did not do well the last time at home. I think nobody's going to want to go down that road again with George Bush. I don't think George Bush wants to go down the road either. On the other hand, it's a serious problem, and if the world runs away from it, I think we are all going to regret that too. So this is trickier than Iraq.
ROLLINS: We are still fighting on two fronts. We are still in Afghanistan, which is not going particularly well. Obviously Iraq is still very much up for grabs. And I think, to a certain extent, part of our dilemma here is the Iranians don't worry about us anymore. I mean, they are think we are just rattling the saber, and I think it's very, very critical that we look hard and fast at the next step we take. But we can't let them basically just arm themselves and create chaos in the region.
SHEINKOPF: I am no military strategist, but I do know about strategy is that when you lose the moral suasion of military power, which has been the great backbone of our activities throughout the beginning of this great nation, when you lose that, you lose a good deal of ability to influence the outcome. That's what these guys have done, that is the criminal act beyond anything else.
ROLLINS: The tragedy of all of this -- and not to cut off your question here.
DOBBS: No.
ROLLINS: We had rebuilt our defenses. We spent a decade of getting us back. We went in the Gulf War with half a million troops worldwide support. We wiped out the revolutionary guard, drove them out, and that was the model. We then dismantled that military, a lot of very first-rate servicemen. As the general said on before here, they had a plan, they kept looking at it, and the bottom line is they decided not to go with their plan or the numbers. They tried to fight this war on the cheap, and they are paying the price for it.
DOBBS: As General Batiste said, with a third of the men. I want to turn to something, the ads going out by the GOP, the Spanish- language radio spots, particularly in Arizona and Nevada, highlighting the House Democrats constraint on their ability to pass legislation, saying, "Democratic Leader Harry Reid let us down. Senator Reid played politics and blocked our leaders from working together." Pretty compelling stuff, Michael?
GOODWIN: Yes, really, a little too inside baseball. I think what it does say is that the one thing that is clear in all the polls is that Americans do not want to make this a felony, do not want to make illegal immigration a felony, and so the Republicans are running away from that as fast as they can. But I don't think it is going to work to try to blame it on the Democrats.
DOBBS: Well, how about Harry Reid, he's had a rebirth, a rejuvenation, a reenergized outlook since 1993 when he was against illegal immigration, understood clearly the costs and the burden imposed by employers who hire illegal aliens and now he's converted. Does the fact that there are 10 times as many illegal aliens in his state today as there were in 1993, do you think, have anything to do with that, Hank?
SHEINKOPF: I don't want to take Senator Reid apart too much. What I'm going to say, though...
DOBBS: Come on, Ed Rollins has the spirit of absolute partisan zest, I'll say, and sometimes his own party gets the zest.
SHEINKOPF: I have the sense of partisan zest, and sometimes my party gets the zest. What I would say is that those radio ads are silly. They are not going to work, and they don't deal with the issue.
DOBBS: But what about Harry Reid having the conversion after 150,000 to 250,000 illegal aliens moved into his state and he was concerned about it when there were 13,000?
SHEINKOPF: Hey, he's got a conference of Democrats to lead, and that's constraining him.
GOODWIN: I think that he probably overplayed his hand here in not letting the amendment to being voted on, because I think what's happened in this interim, I think the Kyls and the Cornyns are digging in stronger, and I think they are hearing more.
DOBBS: In that case, we may need to say thank you to Harry Reid, because when these people stood up there -- I want to say this in front of you just, that was a lie and a sham on the part of those senators saying that was a great compromise that would solve this problem. Do any of you disagree with that?
ROLLINS: The blessing Republicans have today is Nancy Pelosi leading the House and Reid leading the Senate. If they were two effective leaders, we'd be in big trouble today.
DOBBS: We've got plenty of trouble.
GOODWIN: All the way around.
DOBBS: Ed Rollins, thank you very much. Michael Goodwin, Hank Sheinkopf, thank you, gentlemen, appreciate it.
When we come back, we'll have a preview of what's coming up tomorrow, and we'll tell you how the vote came out in tonight's poll. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, I am embarrassed to tell you, and I have to apologize, we had some technical difficulties with tonight's poll. We will have those results tomorrow. Go to our web site, Loudobbs.com. We apologize again for the delay.
Thank you for being with us tonight. And please join us here tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. THE SITUATION ROOM begins right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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