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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Press Secretary Scott McClellan Resigns; Karl Rove Changes Jobs; China's Energy Demand Pushes World Prices Higher; FBI Wants To Access Columnist's Papers; Arizona Governor Vetoes Immigration Bill; Pete King Interview; Chip Rogers Interview
Aired April 19, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush's press secretary, Scott McClellan, is out. Did he jump or was he pushed? How many more departures are on the way at the White House? Is the president not only changing his messenger but also the message?
We'll be going live to the White House.
Also tonight, communist China's president shows checkbook diplomacy is not a uniquely American strategy. President Hu has a lot of money thanks to rising American dependency upon China for clothing, consumer electronics, and computers and other things. Our exploding record trade deficit with China is also financing the biggest military buildup in China's history.
We'll have complete coverage tonight with three special reports.
Also tonight, congressmen and senators are planning to return to Washington next week, and they are expected to take up so-called immigration reform. The chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, Congressman Pete King, will have a strong voice in what happens, and Congressman King is among our guests tonight.
Also, a Georgia state senator, Chip Rogers, who authored a new law that is the strongest legislation against illegal immigration in the country.
And why is the FBI going after the files of a deceased investigative journalist and columnist and taking advantage of his widow in the process? Your FBI at work.
We'll have the special report.
All of that and more, here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Wednesday, April 19th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
The president's shake-up of the White House staff continues. Press Secretary Scott McClellan is leaving. It's not clear whether he's leaving on his own or whether he was forced out. Even the president's most powerful staff member, Karl Rove, is losing some of his key responsibilities. More staff changes are expected, but no indication yet that the president is changing policy.
Elaine Quijano at the White House tonight reports on the changes and what's next.
Dana Bash reports on Karl Rove's new role. Has he been given more responsibility for political strategy in this election year, or has the president lost faith in his top aide's counsel on policy?
We begin with Elaine Quijano -- Elaine.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's been less than a week since Josh Bolten took over a week ago as the president's new chief of staff, but already many changes. One of them in a highly visible position.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO (voice over): After nearly three years on the job as the president's chief spokesman, an emotional Scott McClellan announced his resignation.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I've given it my all, sir, and I've give you my all. And I will continue to do so as we transition to a new press secretary over the next two to three weeks. Thank you for the opportunity.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's going to be hard to replace Scott. And -- but nevertheless, he's made the decision. And I accept it.
QUIJANO: McClellan first went to work for then Texas Governor George W. Bush in 1999, eventually following him to the White House and being named press secretary in June of 2003.
MCCLELLAN: I look forward to working with the White House press corps, at least most of you, anyway.
QUIJANO: In his role, McClellan was the public face of the administration, fielding sharp questions on issues ranging from faulty prewar Iraq intelligence...
MCCLELLAN: In terms of the intelligence, we have said multiple times that the intelligence was wrong.
QUIJANO: ... to the CIA leak investigation.
MCCLELLAN: While that investigation is ongoing, the White House is not going to comment on it.
QUIJANO: Last summer, after days of pointed exchanges with reporters about the case, he joked about the intensity of the job.
MCCLELLAN: It may not look like it, but there's a little flesh that's been taken out of me the last few days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where?
(LAUGHTER)
MCCLELLAN: Like I said, it may not look like it. I can assure you that it has been.
QUIJANO: McClellan's announcement of his departure was not unexpected. As CNN first reported two weeks ago, Republican sources say the new White House chief of staff, Josh Bolten, is focusing on reshaping White House communications and legislative affairs.
Possible names being mentioned to succeed McClellan, FOX News anchor Tony Snow, former Treasury spokesman Rob Nichols, and former Pentagon spokeswoman and CNN contributor, Torie Clarke.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: Also announced today, a significant change in the duties of senior adviser Karl Rove. Rove will no longer handle both policy and politics. Instead, against the backdrop of the congressional midterm elections coming up in November, Rove will focus solely on politics. But the move another indication of the wide latitude Josh Bolten has to make changes in the West Wing -- Lou.
DOBBS: Elaine Quijano. Thank you.
The White House insists that Karl Rove's new job gives him more freedom to focus on broad political issues for the president. Others say, however, Rove's new job is nothing less than a demotion.
Dana Bash reports from Washington.
Dana, what is the truth here? Has the president demoted Rove?
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, actually, everything that you said has some truth to it. No Bush advisers I talked to today even tried to say with a straight face this wasn't at least a bit of a demotion for Karl Rove. His official portfolio was expanded over a year ago and he was put in charge of policy.
Now, in official terms, that power is gone. Several Bush sources, even friends of Rove, say it just didn't work. That Rove was overextended, had too much on his plate, and the Bush policy shop really suffered.
The new chief of staff, Josh Bolten, wanted to, A, send a strong signal he's in charge in turning over a page there. And B, bring in one of his most trusted and longtime aides -- that is Joel Kaplan -- to just rely on focus on policy.
Now, Democrats today called this move nothing more than window dressing, and even some Republicans say no one should expect Karl Rove's influence to really change much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VIN WEBER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: There's a lot less to it than meets the eye. I think the fact is, over the last six years of this administration, Karl Rove, because of his importance to the president and his importance to the administration, has pretty much been able to do what he wants to do, and I think that that's going to largely continue to be the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, Republicans on Capitol Hill who are quite worried about their prospects for keeping control of Congress this November, say, if, in fact, Karl Rove, is, as one source put it, "back on his beat," meaning refocused on strategic political planning, then they are thrilled -- Lou.
DOBBS: So, let me go back to where I began. Has he been demoted?
BASH: Sure. I mean, officially, he has had some part of his official portfolio taken away. There's no question about that.
But in practical terms, in reality, he is somebody who is as close to George W. Bush as anybody, and really nobody I talked to today, friends of Karl Rove and people who don't necessarily see eye to eye with Karl Rove, none of the people I talked to thought that he was going to have a diminished influence in terms of -- in terms of his relationship with the president, because, in fact, he focuses on politics, and many times that has to do with policy.
DOBBS: Yes, it does. And one thing that's very clear is Josh Bolten is getting a lot closer to the president.
Dana Bash, thank you very much.
BASH: That's true.
DOBBS: A new opinion poll shows the magnitude of the president's challenge as he tries to win over skeptical voters. The Harris Poll shows only 35 percent of voters approve of the way the president is now doing his job. That's a sharp decline since January. An even smaller percentage of voters, just 27 percent, saying that this country is headed in the right direction.
Certainly, our trade deficit with communist China is moving in the wrong direction. A record $200 billion and rising. And because of the United States' increasing dependence on China for most of our consumer electronics, computers and clothing, to name just a few items, President Bush has very little negotiating room. He is less the leader of a superpower now than the symbol of a superpower, and an economy in decline as far as the Chinese are concerned.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Wined and feted in Washington State, calling Microsoft's Bill Gates a friend of China, a standing ovation at Boeing and a tour of the factory floor after China plunked down nearly $4 billion in orders to the aerospace and defense giant.
But Washington State is a long way from Washington, D.C. And many there see China's nearly $16 billion spending spree in deals with U.S. companies as calculated and conciliatory, designed to ease trade tensions, but actually doing little to address the astronomical $202 billion trade gap.
PETER MORICI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: The trade with China is unfair and unbalanced, and it's destroying American jobs. Look at the agreements that are signed. They'll do more to help American companies that want to do business in China than they will to create jobs in the United States for Americans.
PILGRIM: In fact, one-third of all Boeing planes which use advanced American technology have parts made in China. China now dominates the manufactured goods market.
"Made in China" stamps everything from computers to clothing. Even Elmo and this American flag are made in China.
The booming production in China is a sharp contrast to factory floors in this country. Part of the problem is Chinese currency is kept artificially low, which makes U.S. goods more expensive in China. China has take an few cosmetic steps, but is not going to go for wholesale reform.
ZHIQUN ZHU, UNIVERSITY OF BRIDGEPORT: It's unlikely that he's going to pronounce any major changes in policy. I think he's most likely to -- just to reiterate the current Chinese policy.
PILGRIM: Congress is threatening legislative action if China does not address the currency issue more quickly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And there are 25 bills pending in Congress to address the China trade issue. And the U.S. Treasury is threatening to cite China for currency manipulation. But, the Treasury has delayed its report until after President Hu leaves -- Lou.
DOBBS: The Treasury Department is a doormat for the Chinese. Let's say it quickly and straightforwardly. They know precisely what is going on and refuse to issue reports to this point on manipulation. But first of all, manipulation isn't the problem.
The fact is, we have nothing to export to China because our manufacturing base has been diminished to such a point. And the Chinese, while this administration continues to mouth platitudes about free trade, do not open their markets to U.S. goods.
It ought to be a fun meeting between President Hu and President Bush.
PILGRIM: It's shaping up to be pretty confrontational, actually.
DOBBS: I think that will be fun to watch, because I don't think there will be much of a confrontation. Just a guess. We'll see.
Thank you, Kitty Pilgrim.
Still ahead, communist China has found the best government that money can buy. And guess where? Washington, D.C.
We'll have that special report.
And communist China is trying to grab strategic oil assets all over the world. Even in Iraq. Imagine that.
We'll have that report.
And vital border security legislation is stalled in Congress. Will lawmakers end their indecision and secure our borders? I'll be talking with the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, Congressman Pete King, here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Communist Chinese President Hu Jintao is taking his time heading to Washington, D.C., from Washington State. He doesn't really have to rush. China already has a lot of very important friends on Capitol Hill and K Street lobbying and fighting for its interests and against U.S. interests. For China, the United States has become the best government money can buy.
Lisa Sylvester has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): China's President Hu Jintao is making new friends in the United States. But for months, his government has been working behind the scenes, quietly ramping up its lobbying efforts in Washington. In the first half of last year, China spent more than $1.3 million on high-powered Washington lobbyists.
ALEX KNOTT, CENTER FOR PUBLIC INTEGRITY: When they are hiring these organizations, they are not just hiring a company, they are hiring the people that have strong connections that they can exploit on Capitol Hill and through the federal government.
SYLVESTER: Money flowed into K Street coffers. High-powered firm Patton Boggs, home of former Senator John Breaux, was hired on a $22,000 monthly retainer. Another firm headed by former Congressman Robert Walker also tapped to lobby for China.
Last year, China's state-owned company CNOOC withdrew its bid to acquire U.S.-based Unocal after an outcry from Congress. Now China has been working to protect its other special interests, doubling the size of its embassy's congressional affairs department, using a congressional caucus called the U.S.-China Working Group to promote its interests, and tripling the number of invitations for lawmakers to visit China.
So far, it's had results.
JOSH EISENMAN, AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY COUNCIL: We saw China host Senator Charles Schumer and Senator Lindsey Graham from South Carolina. And when they returned, their $27.5 tariff really had come off the table.
SYLVESTER: While China is getting its way, many are concerned the American people are forgotten.
REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: It's up to an administration to stand up for American interests for our workers, for our businesses, for our farmers. And this administration has simply failed to do that when it comes to China.
SYLVESTER: This week, the U.S. government will have a chance to confront China again. But all indications are that the U.S. government will do what it usually does with China, give a lot and demand very little.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And China is spending millions lobbying Congress and the administration directly, but that doesn't take into account the amount of lobbying money U.S. multinational corporations and business groups have spent over the years doing China's bidding -- Lou.
DOBBS: As you say, the corporate money very influential, lots of it. And those interests align directly with those of China.
SYLVESTER: We've seen it time and time again, where they are acting on the behalf of China, oftentimes in direct contrast to what was in the America workers' interests.
DOBBS: The public interest, two words you don't hear a lot about in Washington, D.C. Unfortunately.
Lisa, thank you very much for that great report.
Oil prices hit a record high for a third straight day, closing above $72 a barrel. Communist China's growing demand for energy is helping to push world prices higher, and China's strategy to secure an adequate energy supply has Washington now concerned.
Louise Schiavone reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The U.S. reception for Chinese President Hu Jintao will no doubt be polite, possibly even cordial. But make no mistake, when it comes to energy, China appears determined to eat America's lunch.
WILLIAM HAWKINS, U.S. BUSINESS & IND. COUNCIL: China is making deals not only to secure energy supplies, but also to support governments in key places, Africa, Middle East, Latin America, to build a coalition, if you will, of countries opposed to us politically.
SCHIAVONE: Unlike the U.S., which buys energy on the open market, China is seeking to buy energy resources at the wellhead. And their strategy is to establish wellhead control in emerging oil sources, most, if not all of them, in politically precarious hotspots.
TIMOTHY MILLS, PARTNER, MAGGS AND MCDERMOT: They have entered into agreements in such places as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, and others places where U.S. companies and international companies don't tolerate the risk very well. And they are looking at entering Iraq.
SCHIAVONE: It's all part of the emerging politics of oil scarcity.
LESTER BROWN, PRESIDENT, EARTH POLICY INSTITUTE: I don't think there's any question but that they are trying to take advantage of countries with which we are reluctant to do business or with which we don't have very good relationships.
SCHIAVONE: China's energy acquisition strategies are growing at a phenomenal rate. Once a supplier of crude, China relies on imports for roughly 40 percent of its oil needs. In 25 years, that figure's expected to be 60 percent and threatens to crowd out U.S. supply.
JULIAN DARLEY, FOUNDER, POST CARBON INST.: The American consumer, if they look in the business pages of the newspapers, is already discovering that the price of energy is starting to push up everything, including inflation.
SCHIAVONE: And how does China pay for far-flung energy exploration? In large part, with the $200 billion in hard currency the U.S. has sent China via a massive trade deficit.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, the implications for international security are profound. With many of the countries that does oil business, China is also selling missile technology and arms, weapons that can be used not only against a nation's own people, as in the case of Sudan, but also potentially against U.S. allies and ultimately U.S. troops -- Lou.
DOBBS: Louise, I'm sure that Washington, D.C., tonight, on the eve of the president's visit with President Hu, is abuzz with whispers of what the new American strategy will be. Am I -- am I incorrect?
SCHIAVONE: Well, energy is a huge issue, especially since consumers are going to be up in arms. And these members of Congress are going to be hearing from their constituents about how high it is. DOBBS: Louise, I'm afraid -- and I hove to apologize to you for indulging just a little bit of facetiousness. And I want to apologize to you and our viewers as well. But we thank you very much.
SCHIAVONE: I'm trying to indulge you, too, Lou.
DOBBS: OK. Thanks very much.
Louise Schiavone.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Who is to blame for this country's massive trade deficit, loss of middle class jobs and dependence on China for computers, consumer electronics, clothing, and a host of other products? President Bush or President Hu?
Cast your votes at LouDobbs.com, and we'll have your results later in the broadcast.
Still ahead, the FBI wants access to the papers of one of the country's most respected columnists. This move can have a chilling effect on how all journalists do their jobs. Your right to know. And that respected columnist has been dead for some time now.
Congressman Pete King, one of the nation's strongest supporters of border security legislation, is our guest here next. I'll be talking with the author of a new law that is also the toughest illegal immigration enforcement law in any state in the country.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Jack Anderson had a distinguished career in Washington journalism, exposing the government in all sorts of facts that the government didn't want you to know. He died in December. And now the FBI is trying to look through his papers, something his family is fighting, saying that Anderson would never have allowed them to do it when he was alive.
John Roberts has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's the kind of story Jack Anderson, Washington's legendary muckraker journalist, would have loved to chase himself. The FBI wants to comb through his records of decades of work, looking for old classified documents he may have obtained before his death in December of last year.
In a letter this week, Anderson's family told the FBI, "Not a chance are you getting your hands on those documents."
KEVIN ANDERSON, JACK ANDERSON'S SON: If we are ordered by a court, we would not comply. And if that results in jail time, both my 79-year-old mother and I are prepared to sit in jail.
ROBERTS: The FBI claims the documents are government property in a statement, saying, "No private person may possess classified documents that were illegally provided to them. There is no legal basis under which a third party could retain them as part of an estate."
"Washington Post" reporter Howard Kurtz, who once worked for Anderson, believes the documents issue is part of a broader government agenda.
HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST": The Bush administration seems to be taking its aggressive policy against the press one step further, now going after a dead journalist.
ROBERTS: Anderson's archives, nearly 200 boxes worth, are being donated to George Washington University, kept in this warehouse outside the nation's capital. They document an aggressive style of journalism that earned Anderson exclusives and enemies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The CIA's trying to botch up Australia (ph) now?
ROBERTS: President Richard Nixon and former FBI director J. Edgar Hoover both had it in for him. But GW professor Mark Feldstein, who is overseeing the archive, is surprised how far the FBI is going now.
MARK FELSTEIN, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIV. PROFESSOR: Jack Anderson made sport of the FBI for five decades. The irony that they would pursue him now, even past his grave, is something that even J. Edgar Hoover didn't try.
ROBERTS: Anderson's family claims the FBI was devious in trying to obtain access to the archives. Agents claim they were looking for information on a lobbying scandal and convinced Anderson's 79-year-old widow to sign a release.
ANDERSON: If they wanted her to sign something, she signed it. And like I said, she did not understand that it would have led to papers being removed from the collection.
ROBERTS: The FBI wouldn't comment on the accusation. But just like the family, George Washington University officials vow, in the spirit of Jack Anderson, the FBI will get nothing from them.
FELDSTEIN: I think they didn't come after him while he was alive, because he would have died rather than give it to them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: A government official says the FBI has it on good authority that there are numerous classified documents that Jack Anderson had in his possession. The FBI could subpoena the archives, but law enforcement officials say the FBI is cautious about getting heavy-handed with the family. While they may be on solid legal ground, from a public relations standpoint, they might not be -- Lou.
DOBBS: But not reluctant, John, to take advantage of a 79-year- old widow?
ROBERTS: Well, according to the family, Lou, and since the FBI is not addressing the issue, we don't know what their side of the story is on that point.
DOBBS: And as to the archives, the papers themselves, I believe you said 200 boxes. Did the FBI actually gain access to those boxes? Did they gain access in such a way that they could remove any of those documents?
ROBERTS: They have not gained access to any of the documents or the boxes themselves. I don't even know if they know where the boxes that we showed pictures of are. And by the way, I should tell you that, while we were allowed to take photographs of the boxes, we were not allowed to look inside at the contents.
DOBBS: Perhaps the FBI will be more forthcoming as we follow the story in the days ahead.
John Roberts, thank you, sir.
Three major news organizations say former White House aide Scooter Libby is threatening their ability to report the news and your right to know. Libby's attorneys have subpoenaed a wide range of documents that are related to the case of the undercover CIA operative Valerie Plame.
Libby wants to see notes and e-mails from all employees of "The New York Times," NBC News, and "TIME" magazine. Not only the reporters connected to the case. The news organizations say that that constitutes a fishing expedition. They've asked a judge to throw out the subpoenas.
"TIME" magazine, by the way, is owned by Time Warner, which also owns this network.
Coming up here next, Arizona's illegal alien crisis is worsening. So why is Arizona's governor vetoing legislation to help fight the crisis? Outrage is growing in that state, all across the state tonight.
We'll have a special report.
And new demonstrations today held in this country against the Sensenbrenner border security bill. I'll be talking with one of the co-sponsors of the legislation and the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, Congressman Pete King.
And has Donald Rumsfeld successfully fought off his critics calling for his resignation? That's one of the topics I'll be discussing with General David Grange here.
Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: There is outrage across Arizona tonight about Governor Janet Napolitano's veto of tough enforcement legislation. Border security advocates can't believe this is the same governor who declared a state of emergency in Arizona last year to fight the worsening illegal alien crisis in Arizona, and they are vowing tonight to fight the veto and their governor. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Now that Arizona's governor has vetoed a bill that would have prosecuted illegal aliens under the state's trespassing law, border security advocates are trying a new tactic.
DAN GOLDWATER (R-AZ), GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: We need all forms of law enforcement to step forward and to enforce our immigration laws. This governor has refused to do it. If the governor refuses to do it, it's up to the citizenry of the state of Arizona to pick up the slack.
WIAN: They are taking the fight to the cities, starting with a ballot initiative in Phoenix. It would amend the city's charter to require all city employees to cooperate with federal immigration authorities and would prevent city officials from stopping them from doing so.
RANDY PULLEN, PROTECT OUR CITY INITIATIVE: Our city officials are condoning illegal activity.
WIAN: Phoenix is arguably the major U.S. city most impacted by illegal airstrike. And it is also a so-called sanctuary city, where local police are prohibited from helping enforce immigration laws.
RUSSELL PEARCE (R), ARIZONA SENATE: This business of hiding and ducking, and winking and nodding and not doing their job, the largest and the most violent gangs in America, the violence is on the rise here in Phoenix, we're number one in the nation in crime, number one in property crime. Fifth most likely city to be killed in. A direct correlation between that and the illegal alien invasion.
WIAN: Supporters need just under 15,000 signatures by the first week of June to qualify for the November ballot. Already, they have the support of 18 state lawmakers, four gubernatorial candidates and several border security organizations. The protect our city effort is being run by some of the same people behind Arizona's proposition 200. It denied some state government benefits to illegal aliens and passed by a wide margin in 2004.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Supporters are not planning a big financial campaign. They say the protect our city initiative will be self-promoting, because so many Phoenix voters are thoroughly frustrated with illegal immigration. Meanwhile, Governor Napolitano dismisses their effort as the idea of the day, and says she supports comprehensive immigration reform, including a guest worker program, Lou.
DOBBS: All I can say to that is lah-dee-dah. The idea that the governor has taken such a superior view over the poor, humble residents of her state, is there any kind of -- is there any way in which they might turn out at the polls to express their grievances?
WIAN: Well, we saw them turn out at the polls over the issue of illegal immigration in 2004, Proposition 200 passing by an unexpectedly by many people, wide margin, so they are expecting a big turnout at this election.
DOBBS: She is heavily favored, though, correct
WIAN: I'm sorry?
DOBBS: Governor Napolitano, is she not heavily favored in the elections?
WIAN: Yes, yes, she is, absolutely. But Arizona residents are getting fed up with the state government's and the federal government's inability to control immigration, so it could become a tougher issue for her as the election gets closer, Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
In Denver, Colorado, today, hundreds of illegal aliens and their supporters marched on the state Capitol building demanding amnesty for illegal aliens, They carried Mexican, Cuban and Puerto Rican flags, along with American flags. The demonstrators today demanded the defeat of the Sensenbrenner border enforcement legislation which would in part criminalize illegal aliens in this country.
Congressman Pete King is the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee and he is a co-sponsor of the Sensenbrenner legislation and he is our guest here in New York tonight. Good to have you with us.
REP. PETE KING (R), NEW YORK: Good to be here.
DOBBS: We are seeing more demonstrations. And we're seeing more people focusing on the Sensenbrenner legislation. Congressman Sensenbrenner told me on this broadcast that the Democrats were responsible for the fact that the legislation that would create a felony for coming into this country illegally was really a ploy by the Democrats. Is that true?
KING: Absolutely true. It's always been a misdemeanor to enter the country illegally. We wanted to make it a misdemeanor to stay in the country illegally. If it's wrong to enter, it's wrong to stay. Originally the bill called for a felony.
Jim Sensenbrenner got up on the House floor and offered to reduce it from a felony to a misdemeanor; 192 Democrats voted to keep it a felony, and over 161 Republicans voted to make it a misdemeanor. That is a felony because of the Democrats.
I think the reason for that, they wanted to put what's called a poison pill in the bill so they could later claim that it's a felony.
DOBBS: So politics are being played with this on the part of both parties. I have to ask you, as this audience of this broadcast knows, on the Thursday, now a week and a half ago, before you all left town to return to your home districts and states, you remember the Senate standing up there, Senators McCain and Kennedy, Martinez and Hegel, slapping themselves on the back, saying that they had come up with a great compromise, and then the next day it fell apart.
Then the suggestion that politics had trumped good policy. That was an absolute sham, wasn't it?
KING: I strongly believe it was. I've been in politics for over 30 years and there can be a place for politics, but this is an issue of life and death and the American way of live, and both liberals and conservatives say that. But the liberals and too many conservatives are playing games with this. I see an unholy alliance between liberals and Catholic bishops and big corporate America on the Republican side who are really not that unhappy about having so many illegal immigrants in the country.
DOBBS: And as usual, the least represented group of people, the largest constituency in the country, are working middle-class working men and women and their families, have no voice in this.
KING: That cuts across party lines. I have never seen such a difference of opinion between ordinary, regular hard-working Americans and the political elite, the media elite, the clergy elite. There's a certain elite group in this country which somehow thinks it's OK to have illegal immigrants in the country as soon as we call them legal. I've never seen such a disconnect between ordinary Americans and the elite.
DOBBS: Every poll, the reaction of the audience of this broadcast, I mean, is overwhelming. By overwhelming, I'm talking about 99 percent in support of, first, securing our borders.
KING: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Securing our ports, before even taking up the discussion of immigration reform. Which is -- does need to be dealt with, without question. But there's no trust here. We watch a sham like the Senate put forward on that Thursday, on the compromise legislation.
We watched the fact that the president is sitting there promising the state of New Mexico 269 border patrol agents. Governor Richardson tells me, Congressman, they still haven't shown up. We need 10,000 more just on the part of the legislation that you all have passed and the president has signed. What's going to happen?
KING: That's why we have to have enforcement first, if we have enforcement and so-called reform, which is not reform, just allowing the illegals to say here. If we do them both together, you're never going to get the border enforcement, just like we never got it in the 1986 bill. There was amnesty and there was border control, they gave the amnesty and never had the border control, and we went from three million to 11 million illegal immigrants.
If the McCain-Kennedy Bill passed tomorrow and went into law, we'd be siting here five years from now with another ten or 11 million illegal immigrants. That bill will do nothing to stop them, it will be an incentive for more of it.
DOBBS: We're already seeing it at the border right now. Is it your judgment, as the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, that we can actually see our borders secured? This is a bizarre question to be asking four and a half years after September 11. Why the resistance to something that is so obvious, that we must have security of our borders and in our ports?
KING: We can do it and must do it, because after September 11, border security became homeland security. This threatens the very security of our nation. We have to do it, but we have to do it separately. We have to increase the border patrols. We have to have strict sanctions on employers, because corporate America gets away with murder.
That's why you have the Republican/Democratic link, you have the liberal do-gooders on the Democratic side, you have corporate America on the Republican side, and that's why it's hard to get the people represented. The people are the ones being squeezed out. We have to do it, our security as a nation depends on it.
DOBBS: Congressman Pete King, as always, good to have you here.
Coming up next, Georgia now has the strongest law in the country of any state against illegal immigration. I'll be talking about the man that authored the legislation, Georgia's state senator, Chip Rogers.
And does criticism of Donald Rumsfeld emboldened the enemy? General David Grange says, yes. And he'll be with us in just a minute. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Federal officials carrying out a significant illegal alien bust across the country today. Immigration and customs enforcement agents began arresting hundreds of illegal aliens working at a firm called IFCO Systems. They've also indicted nine managers at the firm for hiring those illegal aliens. IFCO manufactures wood pallets, crates and containers. The arrests were carried out in a number of locations all across the country, including Houston, Cincinnati and Albany, New York.
In Georgia, Governor Sonny Perdue this week signed into law what is being called the toughest piece of anti-illegal immigration law in the country. This law will deny state services to adults whose can't prove they're in the country legally. Employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens under this legislation will be subject to state penalty. And state police will be required to check the immigration status of every criminal suspect. Joining me now, the sponsor of the legislation, Georgia state Senator Chip Rogers who says this is the strongest bill in America dealing with illegal immigration. Good to have you with us, Senator.
CHIP ROGERS (R), GEORGIA STATE SENATE: Lou, it is great to be back again.
DOBBS: We talked with you back in March, and, frankly, it was unclear as to whether or not this legislation would pass. First, congratulations as the author of it.
ROGERS: Thank you.
DOBBS: The governor signing it into law. When will it actually go into enforcement?
ROGERS: This is such a comprehensive bill, Lou, that we have actually had the enactment date on July 1st of 2007. But when you consider what we've accomplished here with law enforcement, with public benefits, with public contracts, with private employers all across the board, it is a major, major undertaking. We are going to give those agencies a little time to get ready for it, but it is a big, big bill.
DOBBS: It's a big bill. Both sides, the pro-amnesty crowd, the pro-open borders folks, the anti-illegal immigration folks, all are upset with the legislation. What does that tell you?
ROGERS: We probably got it right because everybody was upset. But the reality is, Lou, there are some people who would like to go further. We're in a political process, but I can assure you this bill has been characterized as proposition 200 times 200.
So at the end of the day, those who realize that illegal immigration is destroying this nation and destroying our state in Georgia have come away very happy, because they realize what we've accomplished.
DOBBS: Well the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund, MALDAF, is threatening legal action, as you know, against the law. They call it unjust, unfair. How do you react?
ROGERS: Look, you know, if I legislated worrying about what some fringe group was going to do after the bill was passed, I wouldn't get much accomplished. I realize there are fringe groups out there that are going to try to take anybody and everybody to court. But look, we do what's right and we worry about what happens after that.
DOBBS: Well the Mexican government, some might call it a fringe group, blasting your legislation, now law, saying it discriminates against Mexicans, it's a half measure. How do you react to a government taking you on?
ROGERS: Well, I immediately challenged President Fox to read the bill again, and if he can find the word Mexico or any nation mentioned in that bill, next year I would move to repeal the bill. If he can't find it, I would ask him to worry about his problems in his country, problems which by the way are causing millions of his own citizens to leave his country. I would suggest, Lou, he's got more problems happening in his country that he needs to deal with rather worrying about what's happening in Georgia.
DOBBS: Well that is probably a sound and valid point. And again, we want to congratulate you, Senator Rogers, on the legislation. We thank you very much for joining us here tonight.
ROGERS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: And a reminder to vote in our poll tonight. The question, who is to blame for this country's massive trade deficit, loss of middle-class jobs and dependence on China for computers, consumer electronics and clothing, for example? President Bush or President Hu? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
The Plains states are dig out from what is rare spring blizzard. Almost a foot of snow has fallen in the Northwestern Plains. Parts of eastern Montana experiencing wind gusts of more than 70 miles-an-hour. Police had to shut down more than 150 miles of interstate roadway. Power outages are widespread across the Northwest Plains tonight.
And thousands of residents are fleeing their homes in southeastern Europe tonight as floodwaters continue to rise. The Danube has risen to record levels after heavy rainfalls. Hundreds of villages bordering the Danube are being flooded. The severe flooding is threatening other towns as well in Europe tonight.
Coming up, the president defends his defense secretary, while several generals break tradition and break ranks. General David Grange joins me to talk about the uproar over the defense secretary and what it could mean for our men and women in uniform. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf, tell us all about it.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. We're watching several important stories, more on the White House shake-up, Scott McClellan out, Karl Rove losing some policy power. Will changing faces help boost the president's sagging popularity? Paul Begala and one woman the White House may want to hire, Torie Clarke, they'll join us right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Also, Rudy Giuliani and the religious right. We'll find out why he's teaming up right now with the founder of the Christian Coalition.
Plus, a congresswoman and a scuffle. We have new details emerging on Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney's run-in on Capitol Hill and the whole police report has now been made available to us. It says she packs a real punch. And oil profit outage. Exxon's former CEO gets a multimillion- dollar platinum parachute, hundreds of millions of dollars. Now we're going to find out why he's blasting the critics for blasting him. Lou, all that coming up, right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
DOBBS: Well one thing about it, he can afford to blast them. Wolf, thanks very much.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today kept out of public view after defending himself yesterday. Six retired generals have called for his resignation. Rumsfeld suggested his critics are unhappy because they don't like the changes Rumsfeld made at the Defense Department.
Joining me now, General David Grange. You like Rumsfeld, you think he ought to stay, right?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think Secretary Rumsfeld is very capable, and I think he ought to stay. I would recommend that he improves the communications capabilities of himself and the staff with the force.
DOBBS: And those generals -- I know, some of them are your friends, some of them you served with -- your judgment on them?
GRANGE: Very credible officers, the ones at least that I know. And I think the only thing that I would criticize there is I wish they would have made their comments at the time that something disturbed them, and did a resignation at that time and not years later.
DOBBS: Right. Dave, isn't it true, though, that they are under some considerable constraint, per force the uniform they wear and the stars on their shoulders?
GRANGE: Well, sure. I mean, they have the option to disagree. It's done privately when you're in uniform. You're either told to execute and you either say OK, I'll follow that order, as long as it's lawful and ethical, or I resign. That's the choice that you have.
DOBBS: The mistake that each one of these generals has talked about, in one form or another, is the fact that Rumsfeld threw out 10 years of planning on the attack on Iraq, the invasion of Iraq. And they -- to a person say -- that the planning, the strategic issues were mishandled by the civilian command. Do you disagree?
GRANGE: Well, you know, that's an interesting thing. Every time you have a new commander come in and dust off the war plans from the last commander, you have to put your own footprint on it, your mark.
And so you hear that all the time on every operation. And I'm sure some of it was thrown out. But I believe some of it was probably used. You almost have to use some of it ...
DOBBS: Right.
GRANGE: ... because, you know, Iraq is there. It's the same enemy. A lot of the conditions don't change. Some do. So I don't think it was 100 percent, no, not at all.
DOBBS: The idea that these generals have not advanced, new strategies, new approaches, at least at this point -- are we in need of new strategies and new approaches? And should we be examining our generals throughout the Pentagon as we're looking at now three years of war and insurgency that was once described, as you and I have discussed, by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld as thugs and dead-enders and bitter-enders?
They are running -- they have, in point of fact, held sway with representatives of the most powerful military in the world after them. What does that say to us?
GRANGE: Well, you know, they -- yes, a lot of the insurgency, you have a lot of thugs. You have terrorists, you have irregulars, you might say. But the problem is, in that type of a warfare, they're very effective with the tactics and -- that they use, their munitions, their IEDs, et cetera. They are very good at that.
So I think that we have a problem, like we discussed on other shows, of irregular warfare, of guerrilla warfares from ages. We've had a hard time doing that. The problem is the Pentagon is focused on efficiencies and the troops in the field are more focused on effectiveness. And so when those things clash, especially through communications up and down the ranks, I think that's where we have the problem.
I mean, I'd ask you this: How come we have not heard from the top-ranking generals that commanded those two stars that are speaking up? Did they allow those concerns to be passed up the chain of command or back down or not? It may not just be at the secretary's office.
DOBBS: Right, that's a very good question. And another question, since you asked it rhetorically, let me ask this one specifically of you. With now 17,000 of our troops wounded, with almost 2,400 Americans dead, how much longer can we put up with a strategy and approach and a conduct of the war without clear statements, benchmarks and an absolute commitment to certain victory?
GRANGE: I believe, Lou, that the strategy in this -- on this fight is being relooked as we speak. It has to be. Some of the conditions have changed. How do you sustain this type of effort for the long haul with the other threats out there in the globe?
And I believe it is being -- it is being looked at. It has to be, because, you know, if not, we're going to lose the will of the people, and without the will of the people -- and the enemy well knows this -- we can't succeed.
DOBBS: Well, and that's a good point, but there's also the suggestion in that there's a defeatist element in it, those who question the war strategy, the conduct of the war, or the American people's appetite for conflict and combat, and the loss of our young men and women in uniform. But in point of fact, the American people have a right. Given $400 billion in expenditure, this expenditure of almost 2,400 lives and 17,000 of our young people wounded, we've got a right to ask why in the world isn't this command, this general staff, with those fine troops in the field, getting it done? Don't you agree?
GRANGE: Yes, I mean, the question's going to be there, and it's just going to pick up, and when you talk about some of the issues that we have right now, with the communication friction going on in the military, it doesn't help that situation at all. And, in fact, the enemy love it. They thrive on this.
DOBBS: Well, we can all hate the enemy and love those troops enough to make sure we're giving them the best leadership possible, and that requires some considerable thinking and debate, in my humble opinion. General Grange, good to have you here.
GRANGE: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of our poll. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, overwhelming. Ninety- seven percent of you say President Bush is to blame for this country's massive trade deficit, loss of middle-class jobs, and dependence on China for computers, consumer electronics and clothing. A clear statement.
Time now to look at your thoughts as well.
Carl in Pennsylvania saying: "President Bush remarked that one day he and Scott McClellan would retire, sit on a couple of rocking chairs, and think back on the good old days. Am I getting this right? Are these the good old days?"
And Ralph in Arizona: "Lou, the use of euphemisms is certainly nothing new, but this administration may be taking that use to new heights. If illegal can be considered undocumented, then if I drive without a license, am I an undocumented driver? If I practice law without a license, am I an undocumented attorney?"
Phillip in California: "I hope you will be able to attend our nationwide rally sponsored by the hard working citizens of the USA on November 7th, 2006, to reclaim our country." Looking forward to it.
And John in Texas: "Lou, love your show. How about giving away one of those American flag lapel pins when you read a viewer's e-mail? I already have your book."
In that case, you've got a deal, a great idea. Will do so. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, exporting America. You can also get a flag pin if you want.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow when among our guests will be Congressman Bernie Sanders of Vermont. He's demanding that President Bush convene an emergency energy summit to deal with the soaring price of gasoline.
And, Congressman Dana Rohrabacher of California, a strong supporter of the Sensenbrenner border legislation.
For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" begins now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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