Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
President Bush And Congress Struggling To Find Solutions To Iraq War, Gasoline Prices And Illegal Immigration; House Passes Lobbying Reform Bill; Zacarias Moussaoui Sentencing Reaction; Herndon Residents Who Oppose Day Labor Site Get Election Victory; Edward Juarez Interview
Aired May 03, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush and Congress are struggling to come up with solutions to three of the biggest problems facing this nation: the war in Iraq, soaring gasoline prices, and our illegal immigration and border security crisis.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Wednesday, May 3rd.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
President Bush and Congress tonight struggling to come up with answers, but they appear to be unable to deal with any of the policies that would address Americans' greatest concerns: the war in Iraq, soaring gasoline prices, illegal immigration, and, of course, border security.
American casualties in Iraq are rising. And April the deadliest month for our troops since November.
Gasoline prices soaring, part of an outright war on our middle class.
And the House and the Senate seem incapable of agreeing upon a bill to tackle illegal immigration.
Jamie McIntyre tonight reports on the Bush administration's efforts to convince Congress that it has a strategy for victory in Iraq.
Dana Bash will report on the disarray on Capitol Hill over how to deal with our energy crisis.
And Casey Wian reports on the rising frustration in states over the failure of federal government to stop illegal immigration.
We turn first to Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, another grim reminder today that the insurgency is far from over. The latest Pentagon statistics show that in the first four months of this year, the number of Americans who have died in armored Humvees has almost doubled, more than doubled, from 27 to 67 in the first four months of the year. One of the reasons for that, simply bigger bombs and an insurgency that is adapting to U.S. tactics.
That formed a backdrop as U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice went up on the Hill to brief lawmakers about what they see as significant progress in Iraq marked by the selection of a new government, which is under way there. Condoleezza Rice, by the way, dismissed any notion of dividing Iraq into autonomous regions as Senator Joe Biden as proposed, and Defense Secretary Rumsfeld wasn't even asked about the latest proposal from Senator Feinstein to reduce U.S. troop levels there.
Feinstein would like to see U.S. troops withdrawn by -- at a rate of 9,000 a month, so that by the end of this year, instead of 130,000 troops, there would be just 60,000 troops, and then reduce it to zero by the end of 2007. But Rumsfeld stuck to his line that until the government is in place, it's too early to talk about troop withdrawals. And he expects to get those recommendations in a month or so, after they see how the new Iraqi government is doing -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you.
Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
In Iraq today, insurgents killed an American civilian contractor in a roadside bomb attack. That attack took place near the southern city of Nasiriya. Separately, one of our soldiers died in a non- combat-related accident in Baghdad.
2,406 of our troops have now been killed in Iraq since this war began. Insurgents today also attacked Iraqi police recruits. Sixteen people were killed in a suicide bomb attack against a police recruitment center in the city of Falluja, west of Baghdad. Twenty- five Iraqis were wounded in the attack.
President Bush today declared that soaring gasoline prices are a wakeup call for all Americans. President Bush met with top members of Congress at the White House to consider measures to deal with this energy crisis. It's a crisis that is part of what is an outright war on our middle class.
Ed Henry reports from the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
Pressure building on the president because of those high gas prices. Polls showing a vast majority of Americans do not believe he has a plan that -- a clear plan that can really deal with these prices, bring them down. And as the political stakes grow higher, the White House seems to be trying to lower expectations, prepare consumers for the worst, calling this a crisis, and also saying the president basically has limited opportunities to deal with this.
Nevertheless, the White House is eager to get the president out there to show that he is sort of rolling up his sleeves, working with Congress, trying to find some sort of a solution. As you noted, today he sat down once again, just as he did last week, a bipartisan group of senators, trying to work through this issues.
Here's what he said at the end of that meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The prices of gasoline should serve as a wakeup call to all of us involved in public office that we have got an energy security problem and a national security problem, and now is the time to deal with in it a forceful way. And I'm heartened by the fact that we're able to have such a constructive dialogue and there's a commitment to get good legislation out of the Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, after the meeting, a parade of senators in both parties came to the microphones here at the White House and proclaimed it was a very good meting, constructive meeting, et cetera. But they all admitted that there really was no breakthrough at all, that they did not have any new policy initiatives from the president, and also that they did not get anywhere with any of the initiatives already on the table -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry, thank you very much, from the White House.
On Capitol Hill today, congressmen made a new effort to address public anger over those skyrocketing gasoline prices and soaring profits for oil companies. Lawmakers agreed on a measure to deal with price gouging. But they failed to agree on a proposal to help raise the number of oil refineries in this country.
Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, after all of the talk here on the Hill about gas prices, as you said, today we saw votes, the first votes in the House on two measures. And much to the Republicans' surprise, one of them failed.
First to the one that passed. It would have, or did, create the very first federal law against price gouging. And it would impose criminal penalties of up to $150 million for energy companies caught doing that. Now, the measure that failed would have eased processing for refineries, construction and expansion in the United States.
Now, Democrats said that they voted against that, in part, because they are worried about the environmental concerns that that would cause, but Republicans were quick to fire back that Democrats were playing politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DEBORAH PRYCE (R), OHIO: They have been against pipelines. They have been against renewable sources of energy. And, once again, they are against refineries.
No is not an answer. No is not an energy policy. (END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RICK BOUCHER (D), VIRGINIA: The real reason we have a refinery shortage is that the companies that own refineries are profiting enormously from the present market structure, including the refinery bottleneck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, that issue is something that the Republican chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee is actually now investigating. He fired off five letters to the chairmen of the five big oiling companies, essentially saying that he wants to know why they are not putting more of their huge profits into investment in refineries in the United States.
And the letters read in part, "The relatively small amount invested by companies to increase domestic refining capacity, a significant factor in high gasoline prices, is cause for concern, particularly given the tremendous financial toll that high gas prices are taking on the average American, the economy, and national security."
And what this House committee wants, Lou, is raw data. They want records, and they want to see basically the financial statements from the companies on where their profits are going and why their priorities, in the words of this letter from the House committee, are not putting the money back in investment in the United States, specifically in U.S. refineries -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you.
Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
As Congress fails to take meaningful action on this nation's energy crisis, Congress can also not agree on immigration reform and heightened border security. States tonight are being forced to fight the border crisis alone, and to do what Washington will not.
Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Missouri is not the first place that comes to mind when you think about illegal immigration. But Missouri's illegal alien population is growing, and some state lawmakers are pushing legislation that would allow local police to arrest illegal aliens. It would also ban them from attending state universities and from receiving other benefits.
SCOTT RUPP, MISSOURI STATE SENATE: What the main intent of the legislation is, is to ensure that Missouri tax dollars are going to hard-working Missouri families, not to those that are here in our country illegally. We do need to take more action on the federal level, because we're seeing it now in the heartland.
WIAN: Frustration over the federal government's failure to secure our borders has spurred 43 states to propose laws dealing with illegal immigration this year. The National Council of State Legislatures counts 462 separate laws introduced so far in 2006, more than double last year's pace.
In Alabama, liberal Democrats recently blocked a package of nine anti-illegal immigration laws. They would ban illegal aliens from receiving non-emergency public services, allow law enforcement to seize their cars and other property, and impose employer sanctions. Supporters say they will reintroduce the bills next session.
MICKY HAMMON, ALABAMA STATE LEGISLATURE: Lately, we have had such a tremendous influx of illegals. Not only are they coming here to work and to have jobs, but it appears that their support group's coming with them. And we've had a tremendous increase in crime.
WIAN: Not all of the state actions are intended to discourage illegal immigration. A California State Senate committee has approved a bill that would allow illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses. It's sponsored by Senator Gill Cedillo, who is nicknamed "One Bill Gill" because he's tried unsuccessfully to pass the law for eight years. A Cedillo staffer says it has a better chance now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: That's because granting driver's licenses to illegal aliens seems innocuous at a time when millions of open borders advocates are marching in the streets demanding amnesty and even full citizenship for illegal aliens -- Lou.
DOBBS: That might cut two ways, of course.
Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian.
Coming up later here on this broadcast, we'll be reporting on one town that is standing up and forcing change to local laws that support illegal immigration. Lisa Sylvester will have that special report on a town expressing itself on this issue very clearly in what is the first election since illegal immigration rose to the level of a crisis in public debate.
A new opinion poll tonight shows that voters overwhelmingly believe the House of Representatives has a better plan than the Senate is considering to deal with illegal immigration and border security. The House bill focuses on border security, and it does not offer a guest worker program. The Senate legislation wants to give millions of illegal aliens amnesty through the creation of a guest worker program.
The Zogby Poll shows nearly two-thirds of Americans prefer the House bill. That poll also shows that 70 percent of voters believe the federal government has failed to enforce our immigration laws. The poll was conducted by Zogby International for the Center for Immigration Studies last month.
That brings us to our poll tonight. Do you find it ironic that corporate America cites the law of supply and demand as a reason for higher gas prices but refuses to accept the same argument when it comes to the impact of illegal aliens, the exportation of American jobs, and resultant lower wages? Yes or no?
Cast your votes at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here later.
Still ahead, a jury decides Zacarias Moussaoui's fate for the role he played in the September 11th attacks. We'll tell you what the jury decided and why.
A border sheriff has had enough of illegal immigration. He's organized posses to round up illegal aliens. We'll have a special report for you.
And I'll be talking with a leading supporter of amnesty for illegal aliens who says walls will do nothing to keep illegal aliens out of this country.
And President Bush's poll numbers remain stuck at the lowest levels of his presidency. Three top political journalists join me here in a matter of moments.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have just ended their meeting at the White House. These are live pictures you are seeing of the German chancellor.
Iran, the top issue on the agenda. The United States, Britain and France today introducing a draft, a United Nations resolution, demanding that Iran suspend its nuclear program. This draft resolution threatens to consider unspecified further measures to ensure that Iran comply with the United Nation's demands.
These further measures could include sanctions, but Russia and China oppose any sanctions against Iran.
Again, President Bush, German Chancellor Angela Merkel have just concluded their meeting at the White House.
Turning back now to the illegal immigration crisis in this country, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona, is taking new action tonight in his aggressive fight to catch illegal aliens. Sheriff Arpaio is deploying his volunteer posse patrol to the Arizona desert in search of illegal aliens and criminals. These posse patrols hope to succeed where the federal government has failed the state of Arizona.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A perp walk you won't see anywhere else, illegal aliens arrested for allegedly agreeing to be smuggled into America and making the mistake of passing through Maricopa County, Arizona.
SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: I'm trying to get a message out to all the illegals from Mexico to say out of this county.
VILES: Maverick Sheriff Joe Arpaio believes Arizona's new anti- smuggling law applies not just to coyotes, but to the illegal aliens they transport.
ARPAIO: It's interpreted by the county attorney that those that are in conspiracy with the smuggler can also be locked up. I'm the only law enforcement agency doing it.
VILES: And doing it his way, using some of his vast posse of 3,000 volunteers to patrol the desert.
This volunteer helped round up nine illegals and two alleged smugglers Tuesday morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get a phone call at 4:00 in the morning from the sheriff, you respond.
VILES: Arpaio's deputies have jailed 120 illegals this year, and this sheriff does not believe in catch and release.
ARPAIO: It's a felony, one and a half years to three years to three years in prison if convicted. So, it's not a misdemeanor. I could very easily turn these people over to immigration. They get a free ride back to Mexico. Right now, they are getting a free ride to the jail.
VILES: Jail space is not a problem. Arpaio is the sheriff who built a tent city of jail cells.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The message has to be loud and clear. We're not taking it anymore. You enter this country illegally, you're going to be arrested, you're going to be deported.
VILES: It's likely, though, the county will face a legal challenge in its use of the new law. At the state level, it is being used only to target the smugglers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: The sheriff bristled at the suggestion his posse is somehow similar to the minutemen, saying his volunteer posse undergoes extensive professional training and is sworn in under the Arizona State Constitution -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sheriff Arpaio is an innovator, certainly in law enforcement. And he also has great community support for what he's doing there.
VILES: Roughly 80 percent of the votes in the last election. This, Lou, is the ultimate old-fashioned force multiplier, a posse of 3,200 people. He says it's the biggest posse in the United States.
DOBBS: And perhaps setting a model for others to consider.
Thank you very much, Peter Viles.
VILES: You're welcome.
DOBBS: The Los Angeles Police Department is under fire for its treatment of illegal aliens. Judicial Watch, the public interest watchdog group, is suing to end that department's hands-off policy towards illegal aliens. That's right, hands-off policy.
The LAPD's Special Order 40 says, "Officers shall not initiate police action with the objective of discovering the alien status of a person." The lawsuit says the policy prevents police from enforcing the law and identifying criminal illegal aliens. Los Angeles police check residency status only after a suspect has been booked for a felony or multiple misdemeanor charges.
In Los Angeles today, the Minuteman border patrol movement kicked off a coast-to-coast tour intended to build support for heightened border security. The minutemen will be making stops in some 12 cities. They'll be finishing this tour on the 12th of May with a rally on Capitol Hill.
Illegal aliens and their supporters have also finalized their plans to march on Washington this month. This latest protest by the illegal alien amnesty movement will be held on Friday, May 19th.
Coming up next here, our nation's lawmakers don't think Americans care very much about congressional ethics reform, apparently. Congress wants to continue to run the very best government that money can buy. We'll have that special report.
And the president of the International Immigrants Foundation is my guest here tonight. He says illegal aliens are not driving down wages for U.S. workers. He says illegal aliens are, in fact, helping American workers.
And after seven days of deliberations, the jury in the Moussaoui case has reached a verdict. CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin will be among our guests.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The House passed a so-called lobbying reform bill today. It comes amidst widening influence-peddling scandals on Capitol Hill. No one believes the measure will do much of anything to end corruption in Washington, but pass it they did. Elected officials are betting ethics won't be an issue in November. Bill Schneider has an analysis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): Back in January, lobbying reform was all the rage. Jack Abramoff pleads guilty. Tom DeLay indicted. Duke Cunningham charged.
Last week, congressional leaders had to rescue lobbying reform from a near-death experience. Are they being driven by a serious commitment to reform or something else?
THOMAS MANN, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: General belief that any bill, whatever its content, will provide a political cover for charges of corruption. And why not do the least possible under those circumstances?
SCHNEIDER: The least possible is exactly what critics say the House bill does. It requires more frequent public disclosure by lobbyists, but it doesn't ban gifts or meals. It requires more disclosure of earmarked spending for special interests, but only in some bills.
Oh, it does ban privately funded travel. But only until after the November election.
How's that for cynicism?
REP. DAVID OBEY (D), WISCONSIN: This legislation before us, in my humble view, constitutes consumer fraud masquerading as lobby reform.
SCHNEIDER: Where were the Democrats?
MANN: Democrats were happy to be in opposition. So, once again, we have not a constructive new law, but an issue for the campaign.
SCHNEIDER: And where is the American public? They found many more things to get upset about than corruption, like gas prices and Iraq, and health care and jobs, and immigration and terrorism, and Iran and -- oh, look! There's ethics, at the bottom of the list.
So what if Congress fails to pass meaningful reform.
MANN: The public won't notice much of it unless the issue resurfaces because of steps taken by the Justice Department.
SCHNEIDER: In other words, more indictments.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The decision of Tom DeLay to resign from Congress may have robbed the reform movement of its poster child. It was a sacrifice for the cause of blunting reform -- Lou.
DOBBS: So, neither the Senate nor the House has had the courage to actually do anything about reforming themselves and the lobbyists who absolutely administer their direction and purpose for corporate masters.
SCHNEIDER: Well, the Senate did a little more than the House, but basically it's going to be business as usual.
DOBBS: Those are not kind words, "business as usual," when we're talking about Washington, D.C.
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Let's take a look at some of your thoughts now.
Grace in Georgia saying, "Just three weeks ago I became a proud citizen of the United States after waiting 10 years. As a legal immigrant from Portugal, I am offended that these people call themselves immigrants. Citizenship to this great country is a gift that should be earned and appreciated, not expected and demanded."
Ed in Missouri, "To be told by our own president that we cannot close our borders to an illegal invasion and cannot realistically deport illegal invaders of our country tells a sad tale of our leadership today. Lou, keep up the good work. God bless America."
Drake in Wisconsin, "The illegals have that phrase, 'today we march, tomorrow we vote.' I think our phrase should be, today we vote, tomorrow you go home."
"Dear Lou," says Joe in California, "The Sacramento Bee's editorial cartoon showed the illegal immigrants ranting and raving and you with Duct tape over your mouth."
That's a pretty good rendition right there.
"Pull that tape off. Keep talking. We need you on the air."
Don't worry, we will keep talking.
Sends your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts later here in the broadcast.
Coming up next, the latest on today's Moussaoui verdict. Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst, joins me.
Americans finally have the chance to express their outrage over illegal alien -- the illegal alien crisis in this country at the polls. It's the first test in Herndon, Virginia, and they are sending elected representatives a strong message. Stay with us for that special report.
And the president of the International Immigrants Foundation is among our guests here tonight who says this week's illegal alien demonstrations and boycott will help illegal aliens win amnesty.
And Congress is failing to take action again on issues critical to working men and women to our middle class. Three of the country's most respected political commentators join me coming up next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A federal jury today decided Zacarias Moussaoui should spend the rest of his life in prison for his crimes in the September 11th terrorist attacks. The jury in Alexandria, Virginia, decided that Moussaoui should not be sentenced to death. Moussaoui is the only person to by tried in this country in connection with the September 11th attacks.
And joining me now, our senior analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, were you surprised not the death penalty, but life in prison?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: I was surprised given the magnitude of this crime. Even though the evidence showed that Moussaoui was at best a peripheral player in this conspiracy, I thought the magnitude of the crime would compel this jury to find the death penalty. But all it took was one juror. We don't know how many voted against the death penalty but at least one did, and that was enough.
DOBBS: Did, in your judgment, did the prosecution, did they overplay Moussaoui's role? Did they reach too far here?
TOOBIN: It did seem like this case was somewhat overcharged. Moussaoui was in prison as of mid-August, 2001. He wasn't even in -- he was incarcerated during 9/11. His connections to the conspiracy seem somewhat tenuous. To bring the whole force of the American government, the only 9/11 trial based on him, seemed somewhat excessive, and it seemed somewhat excessive to at least one juror here.
DOBBS: What is the impact on the Justice Department and the prosecutors in this case?
TOOBIN: I don't think they'll be a tremendous impact. I think it will raise the question of why people like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, some of the real players, have been held overseas and not tried in our judicial system. But I think Moussaoui -- I know Moussaoui is going to die in prison, and he's going to die later rather than sooner, but I don't think this will have large scale ramifications to the Justice Department.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin. Thank you.
Some family members of victims killed on September 11 spoke after the verdict was delivered. They, of course, had very strong reactions to the jury's decision. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEMARY DILLARD, 9/11 FAMILY MEMBER: What the jury came up with today in his sentencing is not going to be what all the families want. But what it shows the world is that we're not going to stand for terrorists to come to our country and to be let loose.
CARIE LEMACK, 9/11 FAMILY MEMBER: I'm glad to see that this will be the last day that Mr. Moussaoui is in the headlines. He's going to be in jail for the rest of his life, which is exactly what this man deserves.
ABRAHAM SCOTT, 9/11 FAMILY MEMBER: I think they made the right decision, and I do support that. But I still am adamantly for the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Turning now to the nation's illegal immigration crisis, residents of Herndon, Virginia, who oppose their town's day labors site for illegal aliens, won a victory at the polls. Residents in Herndon voted out of office the supporters of the taxpayer funded site, residents have said loudly and clearly that they do not want that site in their town. Lisa Sylvester reports from Herndon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the polls in Herndon, Virginia, residents kicked the incumbents out. They voted for a new mayor and four out of six of the council members have been replaced. The campaign issue that largely decided who stayed and who had to go, illegal immigration.
AUBREY STOKES, HELP SAVE HERNDON: There are at least 12 million illegal aliens in the United States right now and local governments such as Herndon and up to the federal government seems to be turning a blind eye to the fact that these people are here breaking law.
SYLVESTER: Last August, the Herndon Town Council voted 5-2 to use $170,000 taxpayer to fund a day laborer center that would benefit largely illegal workers. That did not sit well with the community, especially in those in neighborhoods near the site.
ROB REDMOND, HERNDON RESIDENT: Just the fact that the public dollars were used for it was -- was what I was against, because a lot of those people aren't paying taxes out of their income because they are not, you know, registered or, you know, they are this illegal aliens.
SYLVESTER: Steve Debenedittis also did not like what he was seeing. As the town's new leader, he's promising changes.
STEVE DEBENEDITTIS, HERNDON MAYOR ELECT: The sentiment I got here in town is overwhelmingly most people here are completely for immigration. They don't mind new people in town. They welcome immigrants. But they have concerns, valid concerns about illegal immigration.
SYLVESTER: The day laborer center was established over the objections of the community, but voters have the last word. All of the lawmakers who voted for the center, except for one, were fired by the people who hired them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And the new mayor and council will take office in two months and they are looking at several new options for that day laborer center, including one that would set a requirement that only legal residents could use it. Another option would prohibit the use of public funds paying for the center. Lou?
DOBBS: And, Lisa, often in these elections, whether at the local level or even the national level, analysts, commentators look at one issue and say that is precisely what moved the election and moved the electorate to vote, in this case, in Herndon, we're saying it was entirely the issue of that taxpayer-paid day labor center. Have we substantiated that beyond a reasonable doubt?
SYLVESTER: Well, what you can do, Lou, is just take a look at the members of the council who are left, and take a look at the members of the council who were essentially said that the voters said they did not want them here.
The ones who voted and supported for the day laborer center are now out of office, and the one who supported the fact that they listened to the people of Herndon who said that they did not want this center, those people are still in office. Lou?
DOBBS: Definitiveness, I love. Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester, appreciate it.
A recent study estimates there may by as many as 1,000 day labor sites in operation across this country. The study by the University of Chicago and the University of California estimates that more than 117,000 people gather at those day labor sites each and every day. Three fourths of those workers are estimated to be illegal aliens.
The International Immigrants Foundation helped to organize Monday's boycott and demonstrations in New York supporting illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal immigrants. Edward Juarez is the president of the International Immigrant's foundation and joins us here tonight, and it's good to have you with us.
EDWARD JUAREZ, INTL IMMIGRATION FOUNDATION: It's nice to be with you, Mr. Dobbs. I wanted to make something clear that we do not encourage illegal immigration, nor do we support illegal immigration.
DOBBS: OK. But you do support illegal aliens, and you do support amnesty. You did support the boycott, you did support the demonstrations?
JUAREZ: We did support the fact that undocumented immigrants in our nation are here because they are needed in our society. They are needed in our country, and we certainly do support legalization, Mr. Dobbs.
DOBBS: OK, so let's get to a couple of things. You've said that the Sensenbrenner bill would turn America into an Us versus Them. Who is the Us and who is the Them?
JUAREZ: Unfortunately, this bill, that is also known as the hr- 4437 would divide the American people. It would divide the American people because of the fact that it would establish a national ID system whereby before I come to interview ...
DOBBS: Everybody know what a national I.D. is.
JUAREZ: We would have to identify each other. Although this is something that is very common for the immigrants coming from different parts of the world, it's not something that is customary here in the United States. And if I would ask to you, Mr. Dobbs --
DOBBS: Who are the us and the them? That's the question. Who, in your mind, who would be the Us and the Them, because of the Sensenbrenner legislation, because it would be requisite for all in the country.
JUAREZ: OK, and the question that I think I should pose here is this -- who would be the majority of them, the undocumented population in the United States under the same requirements of the Sensenbrenner/King bill? And the answer would be -- the American people. Because the American people would not be able to prove nationality and identity according to the bill itself. Meaning, that only -- let's remember ...
DOBBS: So you are worried about American citizens not be able to produce an I.D., is that it?
JUAREZ: That's part of it.
DOBBS: Again, I'm going to try this -- this will be my third attempt, Edward. And we're all patient folks, but I -- there is a limit. What did you mean when you said Us and Them?
JUAREZ: It means the American people and the immigrant community.
DOBBS: Ah, the immigrant community.
JUAREZ: Yes.
DOBBS: Now when you say the immigrant community, we have immigrants in this country, millions upon millions of immigrants. And it's one of our proudest attributes as a nation.
JUAREZ: Yes, yes.
DOBBS: Do you mean illegal immigrants or do you mean immigrants?
JUAREZ: I mean immigrants in general, because when we talk about undocumented immigrants, these undocumented immigrants are fully integrated into our society.
DOBBS: They are fully integrated.
JUAREZ: They are fully integrated.
DOBBS: And why is there is problem? If they are fully integrated into our society, what's all this nonsense about being in the shadows? I'm lost.
JUAREZ: They need to be given documented status for them to be actually in essence be able to enjoy the liberties that everyone has. But, I mean, they want ...
DOBBS: I'm watching more than a million illegal aliens and their supporters marching through the streets as is everyone in this country, demonstrating for rights and they are not even citizens. I'm sorry, what more would they like?
JUAREZ: Let's remember, Mr. Dobbs, that those that demonstrated are not only undocumented immigrants. They ...
DOBBS: I said, illegal aliens and their supporters.
JUAREZ: Yes. OK, well, they are very much -- I understand the fact that they are needed in the United States.
DOBBS: We're using up a lot of time here. You've said that illegals, illegal aliens don't drive down wages of American workers.
JUAREZ: Yes.
DOBBS: What is your authority for such a statement?
JUAREZ: Oh, it's very simple. If we talk about population and understand the fact that, let's talk about that we have more than 12 million undocumented immigrants in the country, these people have needs. These needs are, of course, the required products and services and products and service --
DOBBS: Pardon me. Wait, wait, wait. We've got to narrow this to at least our language. You said they don't drive down the wages of American workers. Would you name -- let me make this very simple.
JUAREZ: Economists have already made tremendous studies at universities.
DOBBS: Here let me help you. Let's put this up on this screen, Steven Haber writing in "The Wall Street Journal" today, highly respected, taking a look at the issue and in point of fact is straightforward. And, the Journal is very much one of your supporters.
It says, quote, he wrote, "The overall effect of Mexican immigration on the U.S. economy is trivial -- almost certainly less than one-tenth of one percent of GDP. Moreover, to the degree that Mexican immigration makes some industries more internationally competitive, it does so by reducing the wages of U.S. born workers in those industries."
My guess is that -- and I will ask Mr. Haber when he joins us -- my guess is he meant U.S. workers, whether naturalized or born. It doesn't seem to make any difference. So help me out.
JUAREZ: Well, let's understand that the U.S. workers are U.S. citizens, legal residents and those people that are allowed to work in the country. Now, undocumented immigrants, just the population itself, the fact that they are doing the jobs that Americans do not choose to do, then...
DOBBS: They are doing jobs that Americans won't do at the wages offered. And that's quite a different distinction.
JUAREZ: But let's talk about then inflation and cost and economy at this particular time.
DOBBS: I would love to talk to you about inflation. And I would love to go through a host of issues with you, but we're out of time. I appreciate you being here to share your views.
JUAREZ: Thank you, Mr. Dobbs.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Edward, we appreciate you being here, and Edward Juarez, and come back soon.
JUAREZ: Thank you, Mr. Dobbs.
DOBBS: Coming up next, three of the nation's most distinguished political analysts, commentators, editorialists give us their thoughts on all that is happening in this country and some of the folks that it is happening to. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now to discuss the war in Iraq, soaring gasoline prices, illegal immigration, border security issues, a host of issues facing this country, three of the most astute political analysts and writers, Evelyn Hernandez, opinion page editor of "El Diario/La Prensa," and John Fund, columnist, "Wall Street Journal," Miguel Perez, syndicated columnist with "The Record."
Good to have you with us. Let me, begin, if I may, with you. The idea that we are facing so many issues, Miguel, whether it's gasoline prices, whether it's a war in Iraq, illegal immigration, border security, neither Congress nor the president nor either party seems to have any solution within reach.
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: And that's terrible, because I think the illegal immigration problem is one that can be reached. We can find a solution if we could only find the middle ground.
DOBBS: Right.
PEREZ: The problem is that the two extremes are so far apart, and they have been so many years. Before 9/11, they've been apart for so long, and all we need is to, you know, get one side to agree that we need to shut down the border, all borders, the Canadian border.
We need to go after the people who come from all over the world and overstay their Visas and the Mexican border. And then we need to also realize that we need some kind of legalization program for the people who are already here.
DOBBS: John Fund, does that make sense?
JOHN FUND, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Of course and there is a solution. The problem is I think politics and other agendas are entering into this. The first problem came when we saw all of the flags in the first protests in March. Now we have this whole controversy, which I think is a little overblown, about the new Spanish-language anthem.
But this creates a whole another set of circumstances, because people view this as a failure of people in this country to assimilate. And that is the crux of the immigration problem.
DOBBS: You said it is a failure to assimilate?
FUND: Yes, because there are political forces -- and I will specifically mention, Nativo Lopez, who was the Al Sharpton of southern California -- who do not want immigrants, either legal or illegal in this country, to assimilate into the broader American context.
DOBBS: You know, I've got to say, in Al Sharpton's behalf, I think he's a pretty good guy. I like what he's got to say, and I think that's a disservice to Al Sharpton to compare the two men.
FUND: Al is just a charming demagogue. I happen to know him quite well, but he is a demagogue.
DOBBS: Well, I think he makes -- well, you and I are going to argue about Al Sharpton. I happen to think he makes a lot of sense and out of the host of candidates in 2004, frankly, put forward by the Democratic Party, I thought he was standing head and shoulders over everybody else.
FUND: He was certainly the most humorous, I'll give you that in a pretty dull field.
DOBBS: We'll have that argument later.
EVELYN HERNANDEZ, EL DIARIO/LA PRENSA: With regard to immigration reform, however, though, we see this as a civil rights issue, a human rights issue.
I mean, basically we need just and fair immigration reform that's going to give people who are here living peacefully and working very hard the opportunity to legalize their status and to be, you know, able to seek the American dream, which is what everyone, every immigrant comes here for.
DOBBS: Every immigrant, not necessarily every illegal immigrant, and when you talk about make this...
HERNANDEZ: Why not necessarily every illegal immigrant?
DOBBS: Well, because I don't think that we -- it was a matter of point of fact, you've crossed a line that is an international boundary and a border of the country, you've broken a law to be here. That would be the first start.
HERNANDEZ: Well, you know, Lou, jay walking is illegal and driving in your car without a seat belt is illegal. We don't call those people illegal pedestrians or illegal drivers. So I mean there -- our justice system, you know, differentiates degrees of transgressions.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this why would it be a civil rights and human rights...
HERNANDEZ: People come here because they are seeking opportunities that they don't have in their own country.
DOBBS: Evelyn, you are not hearing me. Why would you call this a civil rights or human rights issue?
HERNANDEZ: It is a civil rights issue and it is a human rights issue because a bill like the Sensenbrenner/McCain bill is going to declare open season on immigrants, on our undocumented immigrants.
DOBBS: Open season?
HERNANDEZ: Yes. It's going to -- it turns them into...
PEREZ: They are human beings.
HERNANDEZ: They are human beings, and it turns them into -- it turns them into felons. It is currently a civil -- it's a civil transgression. You are going to turn it into a felony.
DOBBS: No, no, they have already said point blank they are not going to do that.
We are going to be right back and we are going to turn to Miguel first when we come back. We will be with our guests in just a moment.
A reminder to vote in our poll tonight. Do you find it ironic that corporate America cites the law of supply and demand when talking about higher gasoline prices and defending them, but refuses to accept the same law of supply and demand when it comes to illegal immigration, the exporting of American jobs an lower wages, the impact of lower wages.
Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We will have the results in just a few moments. More of your thoughts. And we will be right back with our guests. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back.
John Fund, you were just about to say?
FUND: Well, I do support a guest-worker program. We had one that worked in the 50s and 60s, the bracero program. I think making illegal status a felony of course is ridiculous.
But here's the problem, the agenda of a lot of these people is simple and complete legalization without even a thought of a guest- worker program. These people simply want to wipe all of the laws off the books and leave all of the people leaving in the line for the legal immigration status in the lurch.
DOBBS: Do you agree with that, Evelyn?
HERNANDEZ: The Kennedy/McCain proposal included a penalty and it included...
DOBBS: No, no, but do you agree with what John just said?
HERNANDEZ: No, I don't. The Kennedy/McCain proposal has a plan for a penalty and also has a plan for the legalization process.
PEREZ: We're talking about earned legalization.
HERNANDEZ: Exactly.
PEREZ: They have to earn it.
DOBBS: The idea of earning legalization, could all four of us sitting at this table, could we agree on something, that if we did pass, any one of these immigration reform bills, so-called immigration reform, that they would be completely ineffective because until you take control of that border and secure it, you can't control immigration, and, therefore, you can't reform it? Could we agree on that?
PEREZ: I think it can be done simultaneously. I think, you know, what happened in 1986 was a mistake.
DOBBS: Right.
PEREZ: You gave amnesty to all of these people, and then you didn't reinforce the borders. You just forgot about, you know, hiring labor department agents to go after the employers.
DOBBS: They made a little mistake.
PEREZ: Huge. But if they do it now, if they do it well, we can do it well.
DOBBS: Evelyn?
HERNANDEZ: I think that -- I agree that it has to be -- that both things have to happen. We have to...
DOBBS: Contemporaneously, rather than in sequence?
HERNANDEZ: Correct.
DOBBS: Would you resist this, if, for example, Washington decided we're going to secure the borders, take control of immigration and we promise and cross our hearts that we'll deal with immigration reform a year later, after that border is controlled?
PEREZ: I'm opposed to that because we got raids going on, as of last week. They are raiding everybody.
DOBBS: Oh, they raided 1,200 people, 200 of them were deported, and they were back across the border immediately.
HERNANDEZ: Yes, that's called harassment though. I mean...
DOBBS: Oh, my gosh. How can you say such a thing with a straight face? They are in the country illegally. Our immigration laws are being enforced.
HERNANDEZ: Exactly. So either deport them -- so, you know, do the raid and follow it through or stop harassing people.
FUND: The boycott has so heated up the measure that we're not going to have any bill this year. It's simply poisoned the well.
DOBBS: You think because of the boycotts and the demonstrations.
FUNDS: It's over. For this year, it's over.
PEREZ: I don't agree.
FUND: Maybe a lame duck session.
HERNANDEZ: And because of the elections because the politicians aren't quite sure.
PEREZ: I think the more they boycott, the more they protest, the more they are going to be heard.
DOBBS: Should -- let me ask you very quickly. Do you think our politicians -- we got about 30 seconds. Do you think our elected in officials in Washington, the Congress and the Senate should be listening more to the people who are demonstrating in the streets or about 280 million working men and women and their families?
PEREZ: Especially because most of them are legal and they can vote.
HERNANDEZ: Exactly. The people who are demonstrating in the streets are a combination of undocumented and people who are here, who are voters.
FUND: The leaders of the boycott made a mistake. They have a different agenda than simple reform.
DOBBS: Miguel Perez, Evelyn Hernandez, John Fund, we thank you three for being with us and hope you'll come back soon.
HERNANDEZ: Thank you.
DOBBS: The issue is upon us.
Still ahead, the results of our poll, more of your thoughts. Stay with us, please.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll, 97 percent of you do find it ironic that corporate America cites the law of supply and demand when talking about higher gasoline prices but refuses to accept the same argument of supply and demand when it comes to the impact of illegal aliens and the exporting of American jobs and their impact on American wages.
Time now to take a look at your thoughts.
Norm in New Mexico wrote in to say, "My parents came from Mexico legally. They worked hard to do it the right way, and I am very proud of them. They taught us values of hard work and patience. These marches are nothing but a slap in the face to all who took the time to follow the laws."
Tia in New Jersey, "As an African-American, I surely can identify with the plight of those less fortunate. However, as Americans our first obligation should to Americans."
Adam in California, "I suggest we offer illegal aliens the same rights, privileges and considerations that are offered in their country of origin. In the case of Mexico, we would no longer have an illegal alien problem."
Donna in Tennessee, "I am offended that our elected representatives have become no more than impotent and ineffective wimps who refuse to honor their oaths to protect our country and constitution."
Julie in Texas, "Good, honest, hardworking, legal citizens, former Mexicans will outshine the illegals eventually. The legal immigrants worked too hard to get here and make something of themselves to allow the non-citizens to spoil it all."
Wardell in Florida, "Lou, the illegal immigrants have had their day in the spotlight, and you can be rest assured that Americans will have their day in November, the border of the ballot."
And finally Jen in Arkansas, "Why doesn't our government declare English as the official language of the United States and save the taxpayers millions of dollars?
That answer will be forthcoming, but it is going to take a little while. We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America" and a copy of the constitution. Finally, tonight I would like to take this time to note the passing of Louis Rukeyser, the host of "Wall Street Week with Louis Rukeyser." Lou was a pioneer of financial journalism. As he put it, he invented economic commentary on television. Lou Rukeyser used wit, clear language and a great mind to make the rarefied world of investments and Wall Street accessible to all of us.
His commentary following the market crash of 1987 shows how he always kept his subject in perspective and in light.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOUIS RUKEYSER, "WALL STREET WEEK WITH LOUIS RUKEYSER": It's just your money, not your life. Everybody who really loved you a week ago still loves you tonight, and that is a heck of a lot more important than the numbers on a brokerage statement. The robins will sing. The crocuses will bloom. Babies will gurgle, and puppies will curl up in your lap and drift happily to sleep, even when the stock market goes temporarily insane.
And now that is all fully in perspective, let me say, ouch and eek.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Lou Rukeyser, 73. And I owe a substantial part of my career to the man. He will be missed.
For all of us here, good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" begins right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
