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Lou Dobbs Tonight
President Bush Nominates General Michael Hayden as CIA Chief; Iraq Troop Cuts
Aired May 08, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Well, tonight, President Bush launches an all-out effort to sell his nomination of General Michael Hayden to be CIA director.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Monday, May 8th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody. I'm Kitty Pilgrim, sitting in for Lou Dobbs.
President Bush today said that General Michael Hayden is supremely qualified to be CIA director. The president nominated General Hayden to replace Porter Goss, who abruptly resigned Friday. But, General Hayden is facing widening opposition from Republican and Democratic members of Congress.
We have two reports from Ed Henry and Andrea Koppel, and we begin with Ed Henry, who is traveling with the president in Florida -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Kitty.
The president is here in Fort Lauderdale this hour, headlining a fund-raiser for Republican Congressman Clay Shaw, a top Democratic target in part because of the president's low approval ratings. Democrats thinking they can take advantage of that in this district and many other districts around the country. And with the president now down to a 31 percent approval rating in the latest "USA Today" poll, the White House did not want a vacuum at the CIA to add to any image of disarray at the White House.
But despite new White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten's efforts to mend fences on Capitol Hill, the White House immediately facing a near Republican revolt among some lawmakers on the Hill over the nomination of General Hayden. So the White House stepped up its sales job today.
President Bush going out and directly meeting the critics on the two chief concerns, questions about whether a military man should be leading the civilian agency, the CIA, and also these questions about the fact that he helped oversee this controversial domestic surveillance program. Here's the president saying General Hayden has impeccable credentials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mike knows our intelligence community from the ground up. He has been both a provider and a consumer of intelligence. He's overseen the development of both human and technological intelligence. He has demonstrated an ability to adapt our intelligence services to the new challenges of the war on terror.
He's the right man to lead the CIA at this critical moment in our nation's history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: And John Negroponte, the director of National Intelligence, joined the sales effort today, disputing this notion that General Hayden may be too close to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Ambassador Negroponte noting that, in fact, General Hayden has clashed with the Pentagon on many occasions.
As for questions about this domestic surveillance program, I can tell you a senior administration official told me today the White House is eager to face these questions head on about the domestic surveillance program. They think it sets up some sharp distinctions with the Democrats in an election year -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Ed Henry.
Thanks, Ed.
Well, as Ed just reported, several key Republican and Democratic members of Congress criticized the nomination of General Hayden, and one of their main concerns is that General Hayden is a military officer but will lead a civilian spy agency.
Andrea Koppel reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For President Bush it was a one-two punch from two top Republicans. The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Peter Hoekstra, on Sunday said General Hayden was the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time to lead the CIA. He wasn't backing off this morning.
REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MI), INTELLIGENCE CHAIRMAN: It signal that we are not that concerned about having an independent intelligence community, independent of the Department of Defense.
KOPPEL: But while Hoekstra's views as chairman of House Intelligence carry weight, it's up to the Senate to green light Hayden's nomination or to derail it, and Pat Roberts, the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, was less than enthusiastic.
PAT ROBERTS (R-KS), INTELLIGENCE CHAIRMAN: I'm not saying he's the right man at the right time and the right job, but that's why we have a hearing on the Senate.
KOPPEL: Among top concerns, whether a four-star general heading up the CIA would put too much of the intelligence community under military control. And Hayden's role in developing and then defending the highly controversial warrantless wiretapping program.
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D-WI), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: I know that he wasn't the top man but the fact is he has stood with the president, others, in claiming that somehow the president has inherent authority to do this.
KOPPEL: The White House scrambled to take its skeptics head on, putting the national security adviser on TV three hours before President Bush made the announcement.
STEPHEN HADLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: So we think that the tricky area is not whether he's military or civilian. There are established precedence for military officers serving. The key question is who is the right person for the job? The president has concluded that's Mike Hayden.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: But White House boosters aside, it is pretty clear that General Hayden's nomination and the confirmation process will be anything but a slam-dunk. Even though he has the authority to do so, Chairman Roberts still hasn't set a date for the hearing. And then late this afternoon, after he met with General Hayden here on Capitol Hill, Roberts issued this rather terse statement, Kitty, in which he says that basically while he is not opposed to Hayden's nomination, he and others will have important questions that they'll want answered before a vote.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Andrea Koppel.
Well, we will have more on the nomination of General Hayden later in the broadcast. And among my guests is a leading congressional opponent of the nomination, Congressman Darrell Issa. He's a member of the House Intelligence Committee -- coming up.
Turning to the war in Iraq, insurgents have killed three more Americans -- 2,420 Americans have been killed in Iraq since the war began three years ago.
Meanwhile, the Pentagon has delayed plans to deploy an Army brigade to Iraq and -- that's next month. And Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon on that -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, you know that plan for the Pentagon to withdraw some 30,000 U.S. troops by the end of the year? Well, actually, they haven't announced any such plan, but this is how it actually works. Right now, the Pentagon has announced that 3,500 soldiers from the Army's 2nd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division are going to say in Schweinfurt, Germany, instead of heading for Iraq this month like they were scheduled to do. That's what we're going to be seeing over the next months to come, as U.S. commanders continually assess the situation on the ground.
The hope is, by not replacing all 133,000 American troops in Iraq now, they could end up with about 100,000 by the end of the year. But the troops in Germany are just on hold for now. They're on standby. They are not off the hook.
If the security situation deteriorates, they could be sent later in the year. But again, the hope, not announced by the Pentagon and not announced publicly, is that over the next six, seven months they'll be able to make significant reductions, assuming, again, that Iraqi forces step up and that the security situation improves -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Jamie, what's the assessment these days? Is the Iraqi army capable of replacing American troops that are withdrawn from Iraq?
MCINTYRE: Well, it's a mixed bag. Some are, some aren't. Some are still lacking key equipment, even though the U.S. has spent billions of dollars to try to equip them.
One commander said last week that that was the main thing standing in the way of some of the Iraqi troops under his command taking the lead. They just simply didn't have the armored vehicles, the same sort of equipment that the U.S. troops had. They are still waiting for that to come.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Jamie McIntyre.
Thanks, Jamie.
Well, new poll numbers just in show the sinking public support for the war in Iraq. Also, a public backlash against the pro-illegal alien rallies. And Bill Schneider analyzes the poll results.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): Have recent protests driven public sympathy for illegal aliens up or down? The answer is down.
Last month, 70 percent of the public said they felt sympathy for illegal aliens and their families. Now, 57 percent do. A 13 percent drop.
The public continues to demand greater border security. Two- thirds favor a bill that would increase border security with Mexico and make it harder for illegal aliens to find jobs. What about those who are already here? Eighty-one percent of Americans favor a bill that would "allow illegal immigrants who have been in the U.S. for more than five years to stay and apply for citizenship if they have a job and pay back taxes." Does that mean the public supports amnesty?
We asked the separate sample, what about giving "amnesty" to illegal immigrants who have been in this country for more than five years if they have a job and pay back taxes? Seventy-two percent say yes. Mention amnesty, and support for earned citizenship goes down a bit, but it's still very strong.
The public sees the Bush administration doing very little about illegal immigration or other problems.
REP. WILLIAM DELAHUNT (D), MASSACHUSETTS: They could build fences. They could have kept the price of gas down. They didn't have to get us into this mess in Iraq. But that's what they've done.
SCHNEIDER: The latest Bush approval numbers, 34 percent in the CNN poll, 31 percent in the Gallup-"USA Today" poll. Those ratings are statistically compatible since each poll has a three percent margin of error. Thirty-one percent is the lowest rating ever recorded for this president.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: What's the biggest beef with Bush? Not gas prices. Only 13 percent of those who said they disapprove of President Bush's job performance said it was because of gas prices. Fifty-six percent said the main problem is Iraq -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Bill Schneider.
Well, still to come, Donald Rumsfeld on the defensive. We talk to a former CIA officer who publicly challenged Rumsfeld about the war.
Also, shake-up at the CIA. We'll be talking with a leading congressional opponent of the Hayden nomination, Congressman Darrell Issa.
We'll have a special report on another high-profile departure at the CIA also.
And the battle to secure our borders. New evidence that illegal aliens are heading to this country in search of amnesty.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The number of illegal aliens trying to cross into the United States has jumped dramatically this year. And among the busiest parts of the California border, the number of apprehensions is up by a third. Now, officials say talk of amnesty increases and so do illegal border crossings at that time.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the two minutes it takes to air this report, the U.S. Border Patrol will apprehend five illegal aliens. By the time LOU DOBBS TONIGHT signs off, another 150 will be in custody. Since October 2005, the Border Patrol has captured nearly three-quarters of a million illegal aliens, six percent more than the same period last year. It's the fastest rate of Border Patrol apprehensions in seven years.
T. J. BONNER, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: I think that this latest bump in apprehensions is directly attributable to the lure of amnesty. Anytime you give anything away, people are going to line up for it. I believe that the current swell that we're seeing is just the frontal wave of the tsunami of people who are going to be flooding our borders.
WIAN: The same thing happened in 1986, when three million illegal aliens were granted amnesty. And again in 2004, when President Bush proposed his guest worker program.
BUSH: ... and fill jobs that Americans are not filling.
WIAN: A Customs and Border Protection spokesman concedes current immigration reform proposals may be at least partly responsible for the growing illegal alien traffic, but the agency also credits new fences, better technology, and more Border Patrol agents for increased apprehensions. And the Border Patrol says illegal aliens are getting the message that sneaking through the remote desert can be deadly, so instead they are crossing where they are more likely to be caught but less likely to die.
Meanwhile, activists gathered near President Bush's Crawford, Texas, ranch over the weekend. Louise Whiteford was there.
LOUISE WHITEFORD, TEXANS FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM: The main message that I'm trying to get across is -- our group -- is that we don't want an open border with Mexico. And Vicente Fox brags about his citizens in the U.S., and our president is encouraging the flow?
WIAN: It was one of several protests across the country demanding secure borders and no amnesty.
WILEY DRAKE, SR., MINUTEMAN PROJECT CHAPLAIN: We support wholeheartedly legal immigration, but we're here to take a stand against outlaws that are marching in the streets.
WIAN: Compared to last week's massive pro-amnesty demonstrations, their numbers are small.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WIAN: But Border security activists say they're determined to pressure Congress to reject amnesty and secure the borders, or else risk being voted out of office -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Casey, you point out the number of apprehensions is up, and sometimes you hear the excuse, well, we're just catching more people, more people aren't trying to come across. What's the answer?
WIAN: In this case, it's absolutely a case of more people are trying to cross. The Border Patrol does believe it has a higher success rate, but absolutely more people are coming across, and agents will tell you that -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Yes. All right. Thanks very much.
Casey Wian.
Well, that does bring us to our poll tonight. Does it surprise you to learn that the talk of amnesty for millions of illegal aliens is drawing even more illegal aliens to cross our southern border? Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast.
Well, four and a half years after the attack of September 11th, our government has yet to secure our borders. And now families of those killed on that day are speaking out on border security and the lack of it.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Families who lost loved ones in the 9/11 attack return to Ground Zero. Grief is replaced with resolve to see that Congress secures U.S. borders from terrorists.
PETER GADIEL, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR SECURE AMERICA: And our Congress faces a stark choice: either we secure our borders and all Americans benefit by a more secure, a safer America, or we don't. We keep open borders and some people profit, while the rest of us pay the price.
SYLVESTER: Former 9/11 commission member Janice Kephart has studied terrorists who have exploited immigration loopholes in the past. Six of the 19 9/11 hijackers applied for immigration benefits. Three of the 1993 World Trade Center bombers were able to stay in the country longer thanks to the 1986 special amnesty agricultural program.
JANICE KEPHART, 9/11 SECURITY SOLUTIONS: Without any changes in the system that helps verify who people -- who people are and what their backgrounds are, we're inviting the exact same thing to happen again. SYLVESTER: If Congress passes another amnesty, millions of applications would have to be screened by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, an agency that already faces backlogs on issues of fraud.
Representative Pete King says if his colleagues in the Senate are serious about national security, they have to act now.
REP. PETE KING (R), NEW YORK: If we are going to get illegal immigration under control, we have to secure our borders. We can't be securing our borders if we give any type of amnesty or legalization at all.
SYLVESTER: 9/11 Families for a Secure America supports a 700- mile fence along the southern border, more Border Patrol agents, use of military technology, and stiffer sanctions on employers who hire illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Any bill that the Senate approves will have to be reconciled with legislation passed by the House of Representatives. 9/11 Families for a Secure America is focusing its efforts on the House because they say at least there are people who are listening to the common people -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Thanks, Lisa.
Mexican President Vicente Fox coming to the United States for talks later this month. He is bypassing Washington, D.C., heading directly to Washington State for talks with Microsoft, Boeing and Starbucks. Now, these are the same companies that Chinese President Hu Jintao met with during his visit to Washington -- Washington State last month.
Now, Washington State Governor Christine Gregoire says Fox is expected to address the U.S. illegal alien crisis during his trip, and Fox's visit will come just days before the U.S. Senate is set to vote on immigration reform.
Still ahead, American citizens are joining the fight against illegal aliens in this country, and we'll have a special report as local citizens fight back.
Also, Ray McGovern, the former CIA analyst who stood up to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at a public event last week, he'll be my guest.
And former Congressman John Kasich says America is in a state of cultural and moral decline. And he says all Americans must fight to restore American values. He'll tell us how, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Tonight across this country, American citizens are fed up with Washington's inaction on the illegal alien crisis. They are fighting back. In San Bernardino, California, residents are battling to give their city new powers to fight this crisis, including denying housing to illegal aliens.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Behind the homebuilding boom in San Bernardino, another story: rising crime, failing schools, a flood of illegal aliens. One citizen did something.
JOSEPH TURNER, SAVESANBERNARDINO.COM: I got tired of local politicians saying that illegal immigration was a state not and federal issue.
VILES: So Joseph Turner fought city hall, forcing a vote on an ordinance he wrote himself.
TURNER: The initiative makes it illegal for landlords to rent to illegal aliens, prevents the city from using our tax dollars to build day labor centers for illegal aliens that you see popping up at Home Depots all across southern California. And also institutes English- only policies that says all official city business must be done in English only.
VILES: Because Turner gathered 2,200 signatures, the city council is boxed in, either pass the petition or put it on the ballot.
CHAS KELLEY, SAN BERNARDINO CITY COUNCIL: I'm going to vote for this initiative to be implemented. And if that fails, I will vote to send it to the voters.
NEIL DERRY, SAN BERNARDINO CITY COUNCIL: We either adopt it as an ordinance as is, or we put it before the voters as is. We have no authority to change it.
VILES: A vote by the council could come as soon as next week.
(on camera): San Bernardino sits in California's inland empire, one of the fastest-growing regions in the United States. And that explosive population growth is fueled in part by illegal immigration.
(voice over): Estimates of the illegal population in the region range from 200,000 to 800,000, and the city's problems are dire: the 99th lowest graduation rate among the 100 biggest school districts in America, the 18th most dangerous city in America, with 58 murders last year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have Mexican gangs that are active in San Bernardino, and most of their members are illegal immigrants.
VILES: Advocates for illegal immigrants say the proposal is unconstitutional.
EMILIO AMAYA, SOCIAL WORKER: We think it's meanspirited. It is, again, directed to one sector of our community. In this case, people without documents. And our main concern is that it's going to give grounds for additional racial profiling.
VILES: Years ago, this city of 200,000 called itself "an all- American city."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't hold that title today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we don't.
VILES: Estimated to be 50 percent Hispanic, it is home to a bustling Mexican consulate. The Mexican flag flying right across the street from city hall.
Peter Viles for CNN, San Bernardino, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, many cities are debating whether to designate themselves sanctuaries for illegal aliens. Officials in both Burlington, Vermont, and San Antonio, Texas, have introduced resolutions to make their towns safe havens for illegal alien workers. And in Cambridge, Massachusetts, tonight, the city council debates whether to reaffirm its town status as a sanctuary for illegal aliens. A bill signed into law in Colorado this month would deny state funds for cities with sanctuary designations.
Well, it's a time to look at your e-mails. We love to do this.
Martin in Colorado writes, "Trying to excuse illegal aliens by pointing out their alleged contribution to our economy is like saying, 'Yes, I stole your car, but now look at how much money you've saved on gas.' A criminal is still a criminal."
Chance in New York writes, "The only reason our great leaders in Washington continue to say that the border is impossible to secure is because they refuse to secure it. Instead, they waste money on fruitless pork and silly pet projects."
And Terrence writes, "Is it impossible to secure our borders? Difficult, perhaps, but not impossible. Maybe our ineffectual government could outsource the job to China since they seem to know how to do it."
And Jerry in Ohio writes, "Our government and big business could come up with a way to protect our borders today if there were big enough profits in it."
Burton in Florida writes, "Securing our borders is a no-brainer. Perhaps that's why it's in the hands of Congress."
Send us your thoughts, loudobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts later in this broadcast. But coming up, turmoil at the CIA. Another top official leaves, and this one under investigation for possible corruption. We'll be talking with a leading congressional opponent of the Hayden nomination, Congressman Darrell Issa.
And also, the president of Iran sends a letter to the White House. It's the latest move in an escalating nuclear crisis. We'll have a special report from Tehran.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: President Bush tonight is facing significant opposition to his nomination of General Michael Hayden to be CIA director. The president chose General Hayden to replace Porter Goss, who suddenly resigned on Friday.
David Ensor has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUSH: He's the right man to lead the CIA at this critical moment in our nation's history.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): By the time the president announced it, the choice of General Mike Hayden for the CIA job was the worst-kept secret in Washington.
GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN, CIA DIRECTOR NOMINEE: This is simply too important not to get absolutely right.
ENSOR: Officials were caught off guard by complaints from some key congressional Republicans that a four-star general should not lead the civilian CIA because he would be the Pentagon's man. Not true, insisted his boss.
JOHN NEGROPONTE, DIR. OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Mike Hayden is a very, very independent-minded person, blunt spoken, and who I don't think will have any difficulty whatsoever staking out positions that are independent and responsive to the needs of our civilian intelligence community.
ENSOR: The change at CIA comes at a time when the agency is struggling to find the intelligence the administration needs on Iran's nuclear program to convince other nations to support sanctions against Tehran and concerned, still, to stop the next terrorist attack against this country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: The administration is hoping for quick Senate action on this nominee, but he is likely to face some very tough questions along the way -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, David Ensor. As David just reported, several leading members of Congress believe General Hayden should not become CIA director. They say the director of the CIA should be a civilian, not a military officer.
And joining me now is Congressman Darrell Issa, leading member of the House Intelligence Committee.
And thanks very much for being with us.
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Thanks for having me on, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Military versus civilian, it's not a set in stone rule though.
ISSA: No, no, not at all. But it's really a question of what the agency needs now. You know, this is an agency that works, not just for the administration, but for those of us in the House and the Senate that have to develop and codify policy.
Additionally, we need someone with a human intelligence background. That's really the now-key goal, and it's the key deficit we have in intelligence.
The general comes from a background of the electronic side. That happens to be the side that's in good shape. But recruiting, training and expanding our ability to reach out into countries, as you mentioned earlier, like Iran, that's critical. And right now that's still a deficit.
PILGRIM: Now, there's a great deal of emphasis on coordinating operations. A good bit of the intelligence budget is with defense, does it not make sense to have someone who can coordinate? I mean, it has been the...
ISSA: Well, it's a question of balance, Kitty. And if 80 percent of the money is with DOD, then do we really need to have a DOD emphasis and maybe a little DOD experience? Probably not.
Probably what we need is we need somebody who really wants to expand the Central Intelligence Agency to be what it really needs to be. It is a civilian, human being, human research agency. We need to build on that, and we need to have a leader who is going to stay for a long period of time, who understands how we do go about recruiting, both actual agents but also the operatives that work for them.
PILGRIM: Is this agency in crisis? I mean, after all, we're facing Iraq, Iran. Is this agency up to the job?
ISSA: This is an agency that hit bottom about 9/11. It hit bottom because at the end of the Cold War, president after president failed to reinvest in that human intelligence and failed to invest in the emerging-threat areas.
Since September 11, it's been on the right track. Since Porter Goss went there, I think it very much was in a turnaround mode. And I know a lot of people look at the departures rather than the fact that Porter did understand human intelligence, did come from a background of being an agent himself, also a military man, but he knew what needed to be done. The next director has to do the same thing and has to have the ear of the president.
PILGRIM: Is there is certain urgency because of this sudden vacuum?
ISSA: There's a need for certainty. Even if it's an acting director, the people at the agency have to understand that we in Congress and the president are committed to expanding human intelligence. That message has to be sent and sent soon.
PILGRIM: Let's listen to what Ambassador Negroponte spoke today about General Hayden and this is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN NEGROPONTE, DIR. OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: And that he will, as a consequence, improve intelligence for all intelligence customers, whether they are policymakers, the Congress, military leaders, diplomats or law enforcement officials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: That's a ringing endorsement. How much trouble do you think this will face?
ISSA: Well, it appears as though it's going to face quite a bit. But I would note what Senator McCain said, and I think rightfully so. In general, the Senate has an obligation to give reasonable deference to the president. This candidate is, or nominee is, in fact, qualified.
The real question is, is he sufficiently qualified? Is this the right nominee at this time? The president has to look carefully at it. I wish he had looked a little longer before putting him up, because I think he might have found somebody more neutral in his background with better experience in human intelligence.
PILGRIM: And of course, he was on watch with the wiretapping questions turned up. What's your view on that? And how much does this create a forum to actually discuss this?
ISSA: Kitty, I think you're exactly right. This is fresh meat for the Senate to bring up. It has very little to do with the confirmation. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this is the ideal choice to expand a human intelligence-based agency.
PILGRIM: Aren't you worried that the discussion might be sidetracked from the candidate to the issue?
ISSA: I am. I do that the question of this general, the question of his NSA time, both are going to be brought up considerably during the confirmation. I'm also looking and saying who else is going to flesh out the top of the CIA, because whether or not this nominee is confirmed -- and I suspect he probably will be -- we have to look at the entire top management, because we're going to need somebody that really understands the human side, somebody who has a background in the agency and particularly somebody who knows how you recruit and train, something we haven't done enough of.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much for being with us, Congressman Darrell Issa. Thank you.
Well, new developments tonight of another high profile departure at the CIA. The man in charge of the CIA'S day-to-day operations Dusty Foggo is out.
Now, Porter Goss, who quit as CIA director on Friday, chose Foggo for the high-level post, and now Foggo is the subject of two separate investigations.
John Roberts reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The first investigation was launched by the CIA'S inspector general, looking into whether Dusty Foggo did anything wrong in awarding a contract to his long-time friend, defense contractor Brent Wilkes. The deal to provide water and other household items for CIA personnel in war zones like Iraq and Afghanistan, was worth some $2.4 million.
Foggo and Wilkes were also poker buddies, attending games that Wilkes had set up in hospitality suites at the Watergate Hotel and Westin Grand in Washington.
Clark Kent Ervin was an inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security.
CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: But often where there is smoke, there's fire, and certainly I think we've seen, over the course of the last few years, a lot of corruption in Washington, needless to say. And because we're talking about not just any departments but intelligence communities, it's particularly important that we take this seriously and investigate it thoroughly.
ROBERTS: Through the CIA spokeswoman, Foggo insists he did nothing wrong that government contracts for which he was responsible were properly awarded and administered. Foggo added that if he attended occasional card games with friends over the years, they were that and nothing more.
But Foggo's problems don't end there. The FBI is also interested in him, as it investigates outstanding issues in the Duke Cunningham bribery scandal. The feds want to know what Foggo's full relationship was with Wilkes, who is described as an un-indicted co-conspirator in the case of the disgraced Congressman. According to another suspect in the investigation, Mitchell Wade, who was operating with the FBI, Wilkes hired a car service to pick up prostitutes for Cunningham and drive them to the Watergate or Westin hospitality suites.
Foggo says he never witnessed any prostitutes at the poker games he attended and that any suggestion to the contrary would be, quote, "false, outrageous and irresponsible."
The car service, Shirlington Limousine, which shows this Virginia townhouse as its address, also denies any involvement with prostitutes. That point is significant because any wrongdoing could jeopardize a $21.2 million contract Shirlington holds with the Department of Homeland Security to provide employee shuttle buses and executive limousines. It got the contract, despite the fact its CEO, Chris Baker, has a criminal record.
Does that surprise the former inspector general of DHS?
ERVIN: It surprises me in the sense that this kind of thing shouldn't happen in any department, especially not in the Department of Homeland Security. On the other hand, the record of that department is very lax when it comes to vetting backgrounds, so in a way I'm not surprised.
ROBERTS: But DHS officials insist it's nothing out of the ordinary. They check the backgrounds of drivers, but not company officials. And they praised Shirlington for performing with, quote, "utmost professionalism."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: If you get the sense that this is an extraordinarily tangled web, it's because it is. And that's why two months after Duke Cunningham was sent away to jail for eight years, the FBI and the CIA is still trying to unravel it all -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Fascinating stuff. Thanks very much, John Roberts. Thanks John.
Well, another conviction today in the influence-peddling scandal of Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Now, the former chief of staff to Representative Bob Ney pled guilty to accepting bribes. Court papers say Ney and his staff accepted meals, drinks and golf trips from Abramoff.
The Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff is serving a five-year prison term along with Adam Kidan, his partner in a fleet of gambling boats. Now, the two former aides to Congressman Tom DeLay, Tony Rudy and Michael Scanlon, have also pled guilty. David Safavian, who resigned from the White House Office of Management and Budget, is under indictment for lying about his dealings with Abramoff.
Coming up, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld had to answer to former CIA officer Ray McGovern last week. Now, Ray McGovern is our guest. And how Americans can take back this country, former Congressman John Kasich joins me to discuss his new book, "Stand for Something: The Battle for America's Soul." Stay with us.
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PILGRIM: The White House tonight, strongly criticized a letter from Iran, about its nuclear program. The White House said the letter does not address the concerns of the international community. The Iranian president says the letter proposes new ways to end the nuclear crisis. This is the first time an Iranian president has sent a letter to the White House in nearly 30 years.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld spoke at the Southern Center for International Studies in Atlanta last week. And during the question-and-answer period, Rumsfeld faced some tough questions from a member of the audience.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAY MCGOVERN, FMR CIA ANALYST: I'd just like an honest answer.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I'm giving it to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're talking about lies and you said there was bulletproof evidence that there were ties between al Qaeda and Iraq. Was that a lie, or were you misled?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Ray McGovern is a former CIA analyst and the man who confronted Donald Rumsfeld, and he joins me now from Washington. Thanks for being with us.
MCGOVERN: You're most welcome, kitty.
PILGRIM: What prompted you? Was it that you couldn't take it any longer or had you planned to ask the question?
MCGOVERN: I was there to actually receive an award for National Civil Liberties Award they call it by the ACLU, so it was fortuitous that I happened to be in town at the same time as Rumsfeld, but I got a ticket to the event and when I heard the lady accusing him of crimes and when I saw him sort of do that little routine where he says, oh, gosh, you know, crimes, accusing us of crimes is so destructive of the trust that must exist between governed and those that are governing, it seemed to me that was a little much.
And so when my colleagues, Paul Pillar and Tyler Drumheller, have now come out and said the decision for war was made a year before the war itself and that the intelligence, such as it was, was kind of ex post facto sort of carved out so that the Congress could be deceived into approving this war, it seemed to me that I had to ask him two questions.
One had to do with his allegation that the evidence of ties between al Qaeda and Iraq, significance there, of course, is did Saddam Hussein have something to do with 9/11. He called it bulletproof. And in reality it was nonexistent and he needed to be called on that.
PILGRIM: You clearly called him in a very public way, and your a former CIA analyst, 27 years, I believe, sir --
MCGOVERN: That's right.
PILGRIM: It's a very public statement you made. Let's look at you -- you asked about the evidence of chemical weapons. Let's look at what Rumsfeld said at that time, and I'd like to get your comments on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons on his own people previously. He'd used them on his neighbor, the Iranians, and they believed he had those weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: All right. And, you know, the great defense is that troops went in with chemical suits, they actually believed there were chemical weapons. What's your response to that?
MCGOVERN: Well, of course they did, because Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all said they had chemical weapons. There was no proof that there was chemical weapons. The DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, in September of 2002, said, we have no strong evidence there are chemical weapons, and there's still less evidence that they are able to manufacture them.
Look, the problem was the nuclear problem. OK? That's the only weapon of mass destruction. And the way the president and the vice president and the secretary of defense sort of conjured up a nuclear threat in the form of that famous mushroom cloud, that was the height of cynicism.
PILGRIM: I think certainly chemical weapons do qualify as a weapon of mass destruction. You talk to entire populations who would agree with that. Let me just ask you, as a former head -- former CIA analyst, do you think that our -- it's an intelligence failure that you're actually asking the wrong people what went wrong?
MCGOVERN: The intelligence was terrible on weapons of mass destruction. But it was made terrible in response to the wishes of the vice president, who visited CIA headquarters ten times, and a very malleable George Tenet, the director of the CIA, who succumbed to the vice president's wishes that they magnify the threat.
It was an unconscionable performance on both counts on the count of George Tenet, Freedom Medal winner that he is, he really corrupted the process and he had too many malleable managers at the middle levels who cooperated. So the evidence on weapons of mass destruction was a sorry tale. The evidence was politicized and the Congress was lied to, and approved the war. It was totally unnecessary.
PILGRIM: You're not shy about giving an opinion, so I'm going to ask you what you think today about General Michael Hayden to head the CIA.
MCGOVERN: Well, it's saddens me, frankly. I don't know Mike Hayden, but I do know his career. He was head of the National Security Agency, and he enjoyed quite a bit of popularity and respect there. Why? Because he emphasized the 11th commandment of NSA, thou shalt not eavesdrop on Americans.
Now, comes 9/11, everything changed, how many times have you heard that? The president and the vice president said we're going to develop a new program, and we'll monitor American citizens but we're not going to Congress or the courts about it, can you just womp (ph) up the program and we'll do it without the respects to the FISA laws of 1978.
Now, as a uniformed military officer he should have known that he was bound not to obey an illegal order. He should have said Mr. Vice President and Mr. President, with all due respect, that's an illegal order. I will not fulfill it, reassign me, but I can't do it. Instead, total power corrupts totally, and when you're that close to power -- I know how it feels, OK? And he said, OK, if that's what you want. So he reversed all the ethos that the NSA has religiously aspired to, and now he won't tell us about the program.
He's exactly the wrong case. It's not that he wears the uniform, it is that he has dubious integrity. The president says he has impeccable credentials. What the president means is he'll do what he's told.
PILGRIM: Ray McGovern, we knew you'd have an opinion. Thank you for being with us.
MCGOVERN: You're welcome.
PILGRIM: All right, coming up at the top of the hour, here on CNN is "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Kitty. Nuclear negotiating. A president of Iran reaching out to the White House for the first time in decades. Will it do anything to ease the tensions?
Also, genocide in Sudan, we'll take you live to one of the most dangerous places in the world. It's a CNN exclusive. And we'll also hear from the deputy secretary of state on what the U.S. is trying to do to stop the murders.
Plus, he's one of America's most wanted men, and he's now on the run. The FBI asks for your help tracking down a fugitive church leader. And listen to this, Kitty, name that baby. You could win big prizes if you name your newborn Lou Dobbs. The only catch, you have to be an illegal immigrant. All that, coming up, right at the top of the hour, in THE SITUATION ROOM. Kitty?
PILGRIM: We look forward to it, Wolf.
A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Does it surprise you the talk of amnesty for millions of illegal aliens is drawing even more illegal aliens to cross our southern border? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
And up next, former Congressman John Kasich will be my guest, he says U.S. culture is in crisis and he says it's time for all Americans to take back America. He is going to tell us how, next.
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PILGRIM: Well, former Ohio Congressman John Kasich is shocked by the lack of honesty, integrity and morality in the United States today. And he says the values that made America great are no longer valued by many Americans. Kasich's new book is called "Stand for Something: The Battle for America's Soul." It's a passionate appeal to Americans to take action, restore truth, decency and moral values to this nation.
And he joins me tonight, great pleasure.
JOHN KASICH, FORMER OHIO CONGRESSMAN: Good to be here.
PILGRIM: You know, I love -- the first line of your book says, "I don't know about you, but I'm troubled by a lot of what I see and hear in America's heartland." Well I know that pretty much everyone in every family has said "what's going on here?" You've attempted to parse through some of the cultural phenomenon in this country. What do you think is going on here?
KASICH: Well, Kitty, what it is a battle for America's soul. That some people decided that they can forget what mom and dad taught them and sacrifice their integrity and their honesty for success.
And you're the mother of some great kids, right? And you know it's not what you say, it's what you do. And if your kids see you exchanging your integrity and not accepting personal responsibility, they lose respect for you even though you are their mother.
And so what I've attempted to do, you know, spending all these years in Congress writing laws, I began to realize at the end of my career that writing laws don't fix the things that bother us the most.
So it's important we stand up. A couple of examples, we've got Barry Bonds about to break Babe Ruth's record. He's a cheater. You look at him compared to Pat Tillman, the guy who gave his life in Afghanistan and left the NFL and gave up millions, who do you want to be associated with? I don't know how you look at Paris Hilton, I can't figure out why she's on the cover of every magazine. But then I look at Bono, a guy who stands for something, and I get pretty excited. Or in politics, where it seems like they don't stand for anything, no matter what their party is because they are so worried about re-election when they ought to be thinking about helping the country like a Roosevelt or a Reagan did.
So what this is, is a call to arms, to say to people, be a leader, make a difference, stand for something.
PILGRIM: But you're saying it's not a policy decision. We shouldn't say the government should be doing something. It's a personal decision every day. But I can see the -- from the examples you're bringing up, people could point to them and say a few bad apples do not make the culture of America. What many people are honest, hard-working Americans?
KASICH: Yes, but the problem is, if you look across the culture and you look at business and you see the Enrons, the WorldComs, and the Tycos and look at sports and you see the arrogant athletes and you look at the pop culture and here we are honoring people who make videogames, right, where you get points for shooting policemen.
And you take a look at sports today or even -- even hypocrites in religion which is so critical for America, that we are a country that believes in a higher power, and then you look at the people who don't do those stupid things and you say, there is a battle.
What -- who do I join? What side do I join? And why do people not do it, Kitty? I think increasingly personal responsibility is a missing virtue in America. You know, what used to be something that represented consequences is now substituted by some half-hearted apology. And it doesn't get it, so our kids learn from this stuff and then they start to imitate people that are their sort of heroes.
PILGRIM: We have this sort of redemptive theme in the country where you are allowed to make a major mistake, go on a talk show, confess all and be redeemed. Do you think that's a bad thing or a good thing?
KASICH: Well I think in some cases if you are sincerely apologetic for what you do, that's fine. But, you know, there's so many cases out there today, I mean, Barry Bonds won't say he's sorry to anybody.
So what do I say that people ought to do? Don't buy his shirt. When he comes to your stadium, don't boo him, but don't cheer him. Just turn your back on him, give him silence.
So the people that will not stand up and say, I'm sorry, in an honest way, I don't know how we forgive them. But you know what, here's the ugly part of life sometimes, and I don't like this.
There are consequences connected to when you do things that are not very good. And just a little apology doesn't get it done. And I don't like to have to say it. I could be the victim of it. I'm not a saint, but I know this. My peers watch me, my children watch me. My wife watches me and the best thing I can do is get up every day, do the best I can. If I fail, brush off the dust, say I'm sorry, and try to get it better the next day.
PILGRIM: It is definitely worth a read. Thanks very much for being with us, John Kasich.
KASICH: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Well still ahead, the results of our poll tonight and some more of your thoughts. Stay with us.
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PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll, 95 percent of you said it does not surprise you that talk of amnesty for illegal aliens -- millions of illegal aliens is drawing even more illegal aliens to cross our southern border.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts. We love doing this.
R.A. Carroll in Texas: You asked on Friday, do you believe as many of our government officials say, that it's impossible to secure our borders? Where there is a will, there is a way. Unfortunately, there is no will in Washington.
Joe in Florida writes: Impossible to secure our borders? Yes, it's impossible if the federal government stands idly by knowing that the border is not secure and does nothing to correct it.
Brian in California: I feel securing our borders is an enormous but feasible task. I think securing a responsible government is somewhat impossible.
Send is your thoughts, LouDobbs.com. And each of us you whose e- mail is read on this broadcast will receive a copy of Lou's book "Exporting America," also a copy of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
Thanks for being with us tonight. For all of us here, good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" starts right now with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf?
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