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Lou Dobbs Tonight
President Bush to Deliver Major Immigration Speech
Aired May 15, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Two hours from now, President Bush will make a prime-time speech to the American people about our escalating immigration crisis, our border security crisis. This could well be the most important speech of President Bush's entire second term.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Monday, May 15th.
Live from Washington, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody, from Washington.
Tonight, President Bush will address the nation about our illegal immigration and border security crisis in a rare prime-time speech from the Oval Office. President Bush is expected to order the deployment of up to 6,000 National Guard troops to our southern border with Mexico.
President Bush's speech comes as his so-called comprehensive immigration reforms face powerful opposition in Congress and among the American people. Critics say the president's decision to deploy troops to the border is a blatant attempt to appease critics of his amnesty program for illegal aliens.
We'll have complete coverage for you tonight, from a preview of the president's speech here in Washington, to live reports from the front line of our battle to stop the massive influx of illegal aliens and to secure our borders. We'll also be talking with key members of Congress tonight and the leader of this country's largest pro-amnesty and open borders group.
We begin with a preview of the president's speech with Suzanne Malveaux at the White House -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that speech we're told is going to be about 17 minutes in length. It really is the first time that he has focused on a domestic issue in a prime-time Oval Office address, really underscoring the importance of this issue to the president.
He clearly has been under a lot of pressure from conservatives of his own party to come up with something that really has a tougher (INAUDIBLE), if you will, when it comes to beefing up border patrol and security. That is going to be the centerpiece, a big part of his speech tonight.
He is going to say from an excerpt here on border security, "Despite this progress, we do not have full control of the border. I'm determined to change that. Tonight I'm calling on Congress to provide funding for dramatic improvements in manpower and technology at the border."
And, of course, Lou, one of those plans that he has been talking about and considering that he'll talk about today is in deploying the National Guard to augment some of those duties, whether it's logistics, surveillance, transportation, not necessarily to apprehend illegal immigrants. This is something that would be state controlled, but federally funded. That is one of the ideas that he will present this evening.
The other, of course, is he's going to be talking about the guest worker program, essentially saying that that is about controlling the border, securing the boarder, and that you cannot have one without the other. He will say, however, when it comes to amnesty, his critics who say that amounts to amnesty, he says, "We must face the reality that millions of illegal immigrants are already here, they should not be given an automatic path to citizenship. This is amnesty, and I oppose it. Amnesty would be unfair to those who are here lawfully and it would invite further waves of illegal immigration."
So instead, Lou, he will focus on what he calls an earned path to citizenship, speaking English, paying backs taxes, a penalty, and so forth, proving good citizenship. Both of these things, these arguments he hopes to make tonight to try to get Republicans on the same side of this issue. And, of course, Lou, even his own aides say this is going to be a very heavy lift tonight -- Lou.
DOBBS: A very heavy lift. Why is the president, why have his advisers chosen tonight to make that heavy lift? Do they consider it absolutely essential?
MALVEAUX: Well, essentially, the timing is very important. They talk about that they feel that they are at a critical junction here, that this is an issue that is ripe, that within the last two months or so you have had a debate that has moved forward.
It was two months ago they thought this whole thing was dead, quite frankly. They believe this is a test for the president, that perhaps he will be considered not a lame duck in the next two and a half years, but someone who can move forward his domestic agenda. But clearly, Lou, there's a lot of credibility that this president is staking on this issue.
DOBBS: Well, those 17 minutes, as you estimate them, that the president will address the nation, critically important to the president, his standing, his political capital, if you will.
Suzanne, thank you very much.
Suzanne Malveaux, from the White House.
Military commanders are already talking with border state governors about the deployment of National Guard troops to our southern border with Mexico. The Pentagon insists that those troops will have no direct role in apprehending, detaining or even guarding illegal aliens.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Far from a show of force, Pentagon officials insist this force will hardly show. Under plans that are still being refined, sources tell CNN up to 6,000 National Guard troops will do more of what some 350 troops are doing now, providing low-profile administrative and logistical support for overstretched border patrol agents while carefully avoiding any direct role in law enforcement.
The Pentagon says flatly, U.S. troops will not apprehend, detain, or even guard illegal aliens. In fact, most would be unarmed and have jobs well behind the scenes such as providing database management, intelligence analysis, or routine transportation and logistics.
Some guard troops may have more visible roles, such as flying helicopters for surveillance, or even helping to build fences or improve checkpoints. But they won't be patrolling the 2,000-mile border with Mexico, and most people won't even know they're around.
Still, some in Congress worry the guard is too busy already given the requirements of Iraq and the upcoming hurricane season.
REP. JANE HARMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: I think our National Guard is stretched way too thin, and I think we have a better group of people to do those missions. And sadly, we're under-funding our border guards.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists any deployment would be temporary until the Border Patrol hires more people, and argues the stress on the guard has eased in the past year. Last August, some 40,000 guard troops were serving in Iraq, making up 35 percent of the force. Now it's down to just over 17,000, or 13 percent of the force.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The Bush administration is walking a fine line, insisting on one hand that the addition of up to 6,000 troops along the border will make a difference in sealing that border, but at the same time arguing that they will not be deployed on the front lines or in such great numbers that they will further strain the already stretched U.S. military -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you.
Jamie McIntyre, from the Pentagon.
Critics of the president's plan to deploy National Guard troops along our southern border say the initiative is nothing less than a public relations stunt. Those critics say President Bush would need to deploy as many as 50,000 troops and to build a fence as well to have any chance of securing our border.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Arizona has more than 100 National Guard troops on the border helping to fight the drug war. In March, Governor Janet Napolitano asked for more troops to be posted at entry points for illegal aliens. But instead of border patrol duty, they've been assigned to more routine tasks.
REP. RICK RENZI (R), ARIZONA: Arizona has sent 100, 130 National Guardsmen to the border. And they are involved in answering phones and doing paperwork and changing oil and tires and maintenance of our vehicles along the border. And it's done very little.
SYLVESTER: Critics worry a similar proposal by President Bush will become nothing more than a publicity stunt.
MICHAEL CUTLER, FMR. INS AGENT: I think it is a photo op. Now with the amnesty bill coming up before the Senate for a vote for debate, I believe the administration has become motivated to provide the illusion of securing the border.
SYLVESTER: Under the president's plan, National Guard troops would not be allowed to arrest or detain illegal aliens, and they would be on the border only temporarily. Skeptics point to recent work site raids. Hundreds of illegal aliens were arrested, but when the cameras were not rolling many of them were released because of a lack of detention bed space.
Representative Charlie Norwood says the American people want more than a symbolic gesture, and 5,000 troops on the border is not going to cut it.
REP. CHARLIE NORWOOD (R), GEORGIA: They'll tell you in everywhere you go, from the barber shop to a cattle sale, the American people want that border secured.
SYLVESTER: If the president is using this proposal as a bargaining chip for amnesty, lawmakers say it's not going to work. As one congressman put it, "The House will not take one step forward with enforcement and follow the president two steps backwards with amnesty."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Two years ago, Congress authorized 2,000 additional border patrol agents. The Bush administration pared that number down to 210 border patrol agents. And now, the week the Senate is debating an amnesty plan, the White House is proposing sending troops to the border. Well, some in Congress are just a little skeptical of the timing -- Lou.
DOBBS: And not without some reason, based on their experience over the course of the past two years.
Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
As the Senate once again takes up immigration legislation, and as the president readies his speech in prime time tonight, it is important for our nation's lawmakers to hear all of our thoughts on immigration and border security. To send your thoughts to the congressional leadership, write Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist at frist.senate.gov or write to House Speaker Dennis Hastert, speaker.house.gov.
To e-mail your senator, go to senate.gov. To write your congressman, go to house.gov. Or you can go to loudobbs.com, which facilitates any of the above.
That brings us to our poll tonight. The question is: Will you vote to re-elect your congressmen and senators if they vote for a guest worker amnesty program? Yes or no?
Cast your votes at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you here later in the broadcast.
Coming up next, we'll be going live to the front lines of our battle to secure or borders and control runaway illegal immigration. To find out what local law enforcement officials think about the president's plan, we'll have special reports from Maricopa County, Arizona; from Laredo Texas.
And among my guests tonight, two leading Republican critics of the president's immigration and border security proposals -- Senator Jeff Sessions, Congressman Duncan Hunter.
And I'll be talking with Janet Murguia, leader of the National Council of La Raza, the country's biggest and most outspoken pro- amnesty group.
Stay with us as we continue our special coverage of the upcoming speech of the president throughout the evening right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, Americans living on the U.S.-Mexican border are awaiting President Bush's address on border security. We're live tonight in Maricopa County, Arizona, and Laredo, Texas, which are on the front lines of this nation's border crisis.
Casey Wian reports tonight from Maricopa County. Bill Tucker reports from the border town of Laredo, Texas.
We begin with Casey Wian, who has been riding with Maricopa County's volunteer posse patrol -- Casey.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Maricopa County, Arizona, Lou, is also home to Sheriff Joe Arpaio's tent city jail. There are more than 1,000 illegal aliens here and in other local jails, and the sheriff says he has room for many more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (voice over): Andrew Ramssammy is a member of Maricopa County's new illegal alien interdiction posse. He patrols the Arizona desert, looking for signs of illegal alien smuggling.
ANDREW RAMSAMMY, POSSE MEMBER: We'll find drugs. We'll find methamphetamine, cocaine. So we're finding out that not only are they coming in -- you know, are they coming into the country illegally, but they are also bringing in drugs into our county.
WIAN: Ramsammy is one of 300 posse volunteers given a new mission last week by Sheriff Joe Arpaio.
Our deputies will take good care of the posse.
WIAN: Posse members support sheriff's deputies on apprehensions like this one, a speeding motorist with no I.D., insurance or license. Seemingly routine traffic stops often lead to discoveries of illegal alien smuggling operations.
RAMSAMMY: Sometimes they are just transporting equipment. A lot of times they are transporting illegal -- illegal aliens with them. So, you just never know what you are going to find.
WIAN: The posse is just one tactic Arpaio is using to fight a flood of illegal aliens flowing into and through the Phoenix area. Another, strict enforcement of a new state law making the illegal alien smuggling a felony. In seven weeks, he's added nearly 150 illegal aliens to his infamous tent city jail.
SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: We have to send a message, don't come across the border because you're going to jail. And we've never said that. It's about time. The law is on the books and yet no one is enforcing it.
WIAN: Arpaio scoffs at the federal government's border security efforts.
ARPAIO: The only thing the U.S. government does, they give them a free ride in an air-conditioned bus back to Mexico. I give them a free ride to jail, and they are charged with felonies. There's a big difference.
WIAN: So far, several illegal aliens and smugglers have pleaded guilty, spending time in tent city before being deported with a felony on their record. If caught again, they'll face several years in prison. Several tent city inmates approached us to say they support Arpaio's crackdown on illegal immigration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are taking over our jobs. You get these illegals in here and they are making our money.
WIAN: And now sharing their jail space.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WIAN: Arpaio says his posse members have only apprehended a handful of illegal aliens so far. He says that's a possible sign that the message is getting through across the border that Phoenix is no longer a safe place to be an illegal alien -- Lou.
DOBBS: What's the reaction to the community, to the city of Phoenix, to Sheriff Arpaio's tough, hard-line policy?
WIAN: There have been some folks, the typical open borders crowd, if you will, that have opposed it, but the sheriff says overwhelming reaction. Eighty percent of the local residents favor his new policies. And he says that poll was done before the posse went out. Now that the posse's out, he says it's probably over 90 percent support -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian, reporting from Phoenix.
In Laredo, Texas, tonight, residents there say President Bush's proposals will do nothing to ease their city's growing border crisis. Laredo is just across the Rio Grande from Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, where more than 100 people have been killed so far this year, mostly in drug-related gang violence.
Bill Tucker reports from Laredo, Texas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ready...
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Laredo law enforcement began this week with a salute to their fallen colleagues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... aim, fire.
TUCKER: It's National Law Enforcement Week. The tribute, a stark contrast to the lawlessness, corruption and drug violence that lurks just across the Rio Grande in Nuevo Laredo. The difference couldn't be more clear, nor could the opinions of local officials on the question of whether President Bush should be sending troops down to the border.
AUGUSTIN DOVALINA, LAREDO POLICE CHIEF: I'm not really an advocate of having the military in our community come in and do what is being proposed.
TUCKER: It's an opinion widely shared, not a secret, but no one at the federal level has bothered to ask.
MAYOR ELIZABETH FLORES, LAREDO, TEXAS: There is no real discussion from people that understand the border, that have been protecting the border. You know, I've tried so hard. The sheriff has tried, every one of us have tried to say, look, this is the way it is and this is what we need. We know what to do. TUCKER: After three trips to Washington, D.C., testifying before Congress, visiting with congressmen and senators, the Texas border sheriffs coalition is plain in its language and frustrated.
SHERIFF RICK FLORES, WEBB COUNTY, TEXAS: Allow us to hire additional bodies so we can put additional boots on the ground and protect our borders. That's what we want. That's what we need.
We don't need the military in the border. We've already told them what we need. Why don't they give us what we need?
TUCKER: But the sheriffs and local law enforcement have found an ally in the state of Texas, which has not waited for the president to call for National Guard involvement. The Texas National Guard is already providing aerial surveillance along parts of the border.
STEVE MCCRAW, TEXAS HOMELAND SECURITY: We think that using the National Guard is a key component to an integrated strategy that will increase border security.
TUCKER: Funny how the locals know what they need and what's not being done, despite the promises.
REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D), TEXAS: We've talked about adding more border patrol. We haven't done that. We've only added a few.
We've talked about adding technology. We haven't done that yet. We talked about adding detention, more detention beds. We haven't done that, except for a few.
TUCKER: Which means the federal government has no credibility left.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Local law enforcement officials do agree that border security is paramount, Lou. They say without it, any policy which follows is meaningless, and they are also grateful that the country at least appears to be paying attention now to what's going on at its borders -- Lou.
DOBBS: A border crisis without question.
Thank you very much.
Bill Tucker from Laredo, Texas.
Coming up next, President Bush's speech tonight on immigration reform and border security could further weaken his standing with some members of his own political party. Unless he has the speech of his career.
We'll have that special report.
Also tonight, two powerful members of Congress join me to preview tonight's speech. I'll be joined by Senator Jeff Sessions, chairman of the Senate committee, and Congressman Duncan Hunter, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, join me here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Republican Party tonight is deeply divided over the illegal immigration and border security crisis. Many Republicans say illegal aliens should not be granted amnesty under any circumstances. Other Republicans supported by corporate America and special interests say our economy could not survive without illegal aliens.
John King has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The immediate political challenge is to sound tough.
NEIL NEWHOUSE, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: He does need to reinforce his Republican base. They are mad and upset about this issue. They want to secure the borders. That's the very first thing that they've got to do.
KING: The long-term political worry is that tough can sound hostile.
GROVER NORQUIST, AMERICANS FOR TAX REFORM: Immigrants are a natural part of the Republican coalition, unless some silly Republican goes out there and spits at them and convinces them that they are not welcome.
KING: But the president's difficult challenge is to please very different audiences.
KARL ROVE, WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: This is a problem of security. It is a problem of our economy. It is a problem of compassion.
KING: The White House insists Mr. Bush's tougher border security talk is by no means a retreat from his call to let millions who enter the United States illegally stay and ultimately get legal status.
ROVE: We will not be able to secure the border unless we have a temporary worker program.
KING: By putting more emphasis on border security, Mr. Bush hopes most Republicans will feel politically safe accepting his guest worker program as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Q. Citizen doesn't want it.
KING: The White House hope is to isolate vocal critics like Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo, who called the president's approach amnesty for illegal behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the Tom Tancredo voices convince Hispanic- Americans that the Republican Party is hostile to them because Tancredo sure sounds that way, then the Republican Party will cease to be the majority party in the next 10 or 15 years.
KING: But pollster Newhouse says short-term pressures might outweigh longer-term worries.
NEWHOUSE: I think longer term for us is November 7th. I'm not sure longer term goes beyond that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Now, Republicans are divided not only over the policy, but divided over how they think all this will play out. Some in the White House, White House aides and allies, talk of negotiating a compromise bill, perhaps in the next month or so. Many other Republicans, Lou, call that wishful thinking.
Those running the tight House races, they say even candidates who -- even Republican incumbents who might support the president's position are beginning to think, I want this as an issue, I do not want to pass a bill. They want to be able to attack their Democratic opponents for supporting amnesty.
DOBBS: It's a tough problem for them, perhaps, but to hear Grover Norquist make one of the -- in my opinion, one of the saddest mistakes in this entire debate, is to equate Hispanic-Americans with amnesty than the guest worker program. That is an absolute travesty of logic and fact, because there is no direct correlation between one's Hispanic-American status and enthusiasm for illegal immigration and open borders.
KING: Well, it is...
DOBBS: That's a bizarre, tortured piece of reasoning by Norquist as a pretty good politician.
KING: It is accepting that there is an overwhelming one opinion within the community, which, of course, is the subject of great debate. And there's a number of studies ongoing right now. But that is the big question.
And there's the short term and the long term here, but he has a position, and he's trying to advocate it. They are trying to essentially now, hoping the president gives them the cover (ph) to rush this through.
DOBBS: Grover Norquist, how does he make his money?
KING: He runs a group called Americans for Tax Reform. It is very influential in the conservative...
DOBBS: Do they lobby?
KING: They advocate for positions. They advocate for positions. And much of their support does come from corporate America, which supports the guest worker program, that of course many call amnesty.
DOBBS: I just thought we ought to put that in some context. KING: Connect the dots.
DOBBS: Exactly. A lobbyist, you know -- we call lobbyists...
KING: He would call himself an activist, I think.
DOBBS: He's an activist. I call him a lobbyist because I don't have to stay in this city very long.
John King, thanks a lot.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
Linda Florida, "Lou, I'm afraid the promise of troops is going to be the tradeoff for amnesty. This is not acceptable."
And Will in Nebraska, "President Bush wants to use a spoonful of guardsmen to make the amnesty go down."
Janice in Texas, "What are they thinking? Our government leaders might start worrying about the legal Americans, the people who still will be voting in November and who pay their salaries, instead of the illegals who have no right to vote or even be in this country."
J.W. Porter in Texas, "Lou, don't we have a guest worker program now? Isn't it called legal immigration?"
Good point.
And Florence in Nevada, "Dear Lou, if I hear the president talk about guest workers one more time, I'm going to scream. What the hell does he think green cards are for?"
And Robert in California, "Lou, Bush's temporary workers program is, 'If you are an American, you can only have a job temporarily.'"
And Arturo in Florida, "The only temporary workers we want are Bush, Cheney, and Congress, soon to be downsized and outsourced."
And C.J. in California, "How can the administration keep track of every call American citizens make but can't track illegals in our country?"
Send us your thoughts to loudobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts later in the program.
Coming up next, our border states are paying the highest price for our failed border security policies. A special report on reaction from the front lines of the illegal immigration crisis.
And tonight, two powerful lawmakers, Senator Jeff Sessions, Congressman Duncan Hunter, join me to discuss what they need to hear from the president tonight.
And what does the illegal alien amnesty lobby really want? I'll be talking with Janet Murguia of the National Council of La Raza next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush's plan to strengthen the National Guard's presence on our border with Mexico is already facing resistance from states across the nation, not only border states. Many state governors say they will not allow the White House to play politics with their National Guard.
John Roberts reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In Texas, where the National Guard has been on the border since 1988 fighting the war on drugs, Governor Rick Perry welcomes the president's plan.
GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: Yes, and one of my criticisms of the federal government was that they weren't doing enough, so we're, you know, pleased to see that the federal government is understanding the very important role that they need to be playing.
ROBERTS: Perry is confident that Texas National Guard can meet the challenge, but next door in New Mexico, where a state of emergency has been declared in border counties, Governor Bill Richardson opposes the plan. He wants the National Guard available for disasters like forest fires and insists border security is not the guards's duty.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: What I don't want is for the National Guard to be used for political reasons to show the Republican right wing that the president is tough on illegal immigration. The way the president can be tough and all of us can be tough is to use more border patrol agents.
ROBERTS: Richardson had early support from California's Republican governor, but since his initial opposition over the weekend, Arnold Schwarzenegger has dialed back a bit, saying he would only be against permanently posting National Guard on the border.
GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I'm very optimistic that they are moving in the right direction of looking at border security in a very serious way. I think this is -- because that is the step one towards reforming immigration. That without securing the borders, you have nothing.
ROBERTS: As much as the issue has aligned Republican and Democrat, it has also split party colleagues. Arizona's Democratic governor, for instance, likes the idea. Her own plan to put the National Guard on the border has been tied up in a dispute over budgets and enforcement against illegal aliens.
But some experts on federal/state issues see possible problems down the road.
NORMAN ORNSTEIN, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: States are very protective of their National Guards. It's not just that these are voters and their families are voters, but they have other responsibilities that they want to reserve, including things that might happen in the time of a natural disaster.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Of course the president's proposal is only an offer, not an edict. If a governor wants to opt out, he or she can, though politically it may be a little difficult to explain why they are turning down federal money to attack a problem that effects their state so deeply -- Lou.
DOBBS This shift in position by Governor Schwarzenegger over the last four days and perhaps over two weeks if you include his op-ed in "The Wall Street Journal," breathtaking adaptiveness, is that what we could call it?
ROBERTS: I would say somebody rang his bell.
DOBBS: Somebody from somewhere around 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
John, thank you very much. John Roberts.
Joining me now for more on the president's plan to deploy National Guard troops to our southern border is Congressman Duncan Hunter, the chairman of the powerful House Armed Services Committee joining us tonight from Chula Vista, a border station in California.
Congressman, good of you to stand out there in the California heat. Are you excited about what you expect the president to say tonight?
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), ARMED SVCS. CMTE. CHMN.: Lou, this is a great opportunity, and right now, for those people that say that the National Guard shouldn't be on the border, those caterpillars you hear behind me are National Guard caterpillars that are building the roadbed for the fence that's right behind me here in San Diego County. And this fence works. It's a double fence with a border patrol road in between, and we've taken down smuggling of people and narcotics to basically zero.
Now, for all of those people who say, well, this a bad deal and it's political, people like the governor of New Mexico, there will be 400 people dying in the Arizona desert starting in about two weeks when the temperatures reach 110 degrees. People that come across from Mexico, they are told that the road is a mile to the north and in some cases it's 20 miles.
We need to start building that fence that's in the House bill between Calexico, California, and Douglas, Arizona. It's 360 miles. We need to get that up. We can use National Guard to do it. This is a great opportunity.
DOBBS: If the National Guard is deployed in sufficient numbers in the right, of course, job classifications, let me ask you this -- Chuck Hagel, as you know, suggested that he thinks it may be a bad idea. He has not come up with either an idea in opposition to that of the president, nor a specific concern, but he is very wary of the idea of using the National Guard. What's your judgment as chairman of the House Armed Services Committee?
HUNTER: Chuck's a great guy, but let me give you the numbers. We've got over 400,000 national guardsmen in this country. We've got almost 200,000 who have never been deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan or to a war-fighting theater. We're only deploying a little over 10 percent of the national guardsmen right now. We've got about 54,000 deployed in theater.
That means we've got hundreds of thousands of National Guard who are not going to Iraq. They are not going to Afghanistan. They are here in the country. And they are National Guard, and this is a national border to be guarded.
DOBBS: Now, let's say -- we talked to T.J. Bonner, as you know, who is the president of the National Border Patrol Council, the union for the border patrol. He says, and I'll quote just the last part of what he said, "This Congress is not funded support positions on the border. The money would be better spent going after employers who hire illegal aliens." What's your reaction congressman?
HUNTER: You have got to do that. You've got to do two things. You got cut the magnet off, which is the jobs, and we need to do that. But the problem with T.J.'s solution is it's not complete. You have about 250,000 hardened criminals who come across this border, not to work, not to work for an employer but to rob, rape, and murder and commit other crimes and in federal, state and local penitentiaries a quarter of a million criminal aliens that move back and forth between the U.S. and Mexico.
So even if you do what T.J. Bonner, which is cut off the jobs, which we need to do, you still have this massive criminal population as well as potential terrorists.
DOBBS: All right. We just lost a satellite apparently. Congressman Duncan Hunter coming to us tonight from the border crossing there in San Diego. And we thank him and apologize to you for those technical problems.
Senator Jeff Sessions serves on the powerful Judiciary Committee, opposes guest worker amnesty plans, and he is warning President Bush tonight against making a symbolic gesture, saying the president should ask Congress for the resources to enforce real border security.
Senator Sessions, good to have you here.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: Nice to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: You're prejudging this, you don't believe this is real border security?
SESSIONS: No, I think this is a good step.
I think the president has got a message here from the American people. He's beginning to feel the heat. He's beginning to understand the depth of the feeling and I believe he's taking some steps.
But there's got to be more than just the National Guard, that's for sure. I think he'll announce more, but there's some very specific things that must be done to make this system work.
DOBBS: Let's go to those specifics and see if the president wants to listen.
SESSIONS: The U.S.-VISIT system, that is the exit/entry computer system that's only half working now after 10 years. U.S.-VISIT must be up.
There must be a workplace identifier so that an employer can check a computer database to determine whether or not the person is legal or not. That can be done. It's not up today.
We absolutely must have more detention space. We cannot catch people and then release them. What kind of a joke is that? So you've got to have more temporary, short-term detention.
And we need fencing. If you have more fencing, that multiplies the ability of our law enforcement officers.
All those things, Lou, can actually get us to a secure border -- it really can. It's possible and it's affordable.
DOBBS: Senator, tell us this -- how -- why is it that so many people in the United States Senate and this president basically say that you can't have real border security? They talked about operational security at the border. Franklin Delano Roosevelt did it, of course, you know, World War II.
They say that you can't take control of our immigration system because it's just so massive, yet we've got a backlog of -- in the millions for legal immigration.
What is the urgency here for immigration reform before these borders are actually secured?
SESSIONS: I don't think there is urgency for that.
In fact, I have felt all along we should follow the course that Duncan Hunter and the House members said, which was to secure the border first and create a workplace system that works, and then seek to decide how many people should come in this country, how we should treat those people that are here illegally and do so in a decent way.
We can do that, but -- and we can actually do it all together. But the sad truth is that I just had a press conference today, and for the first time -- this Senate bill has been out there for months now...
DOBBS: Right.
SESSIONS: ... and we discovered and added up the numbers, and it is going to allow into this country, if passed, legally, five times as many people as currently are being allowed into the country.
DOBBS: Five times as many. We estimated it would be doubling the number.
SESSIONS: It's going to be much more than that. It's going to be at least four, probably five. Robert Rector, the senior analyst at Heritage, said five times.
DOBBS: With that case -- and you were also, as I recall, the first senator to say, are we going to look at the cost of this so- called compromise legislation as worked out between Senator Martinez and Senator Hagel, and then adopted of course by your committee and Senator Specter, the chairman. What in the world is going on?
SESSIONS: Well, the cost is very real.
Mr. Rector said today -- and he is a guru on welfare -- he added up the numbers, he believes that in the out years we'll have $30 million a year cost for just the parents of immigrants who come into our country, who will be allowed as a matter of right to enter.
DOBBS: Because of the extended family tradition.
SESSIONS: Extended family. And then another $16 billion in welfare, pushing $50 billion per year in the out years.
DOBBS: Remarkable.
Are you -- we're out of time, Senator, but are you hopeful that the president will exert true and galvanizing leadership tonight in his speech?
SESSIONS: He needs to tell us he intends to enforce the border with conviction and then he needs to set about to do it. We'll help him. Congress will be ready
DOBBS: Senator Jeff Sessions, good to have you here.
SESSIONS: Thank you.
Coming up next, I'll be talking with Janet Murguia, president of the National Council of La Raza. She is a leading supporter of amnesty, she opposes sending the National Guard to the border. We'll find out why.
Also ahead here, can the president beat the rupture within his own party and convince the American people that he can seal our broken borders at the same time? Three of the nation's most respected political analysts join me. Stay tuned to CNN throughout the evening for continuous coverage of the president's upcoming speech on our illegal immigration and border security crisis.
And I'll be joining Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" at 7 p.m. Eastern here on CNN. The president speaks to the nation at 8:00 p.m., followed by a special edition of our broadcast at 8:30 p.m. with complete coverage of the president's proposals and the reaction to them. At 9:00 p.m., a special edition of Larry King, live from the U.S./Mexico border. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" continue our coverage at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, right here, tonight on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back here live in Washington D.C. where President Bush will be addressing the nation tonight on immigration reform and border security. Joining me now is Janet Murguia, she is the president and CEO of the National Council of La Raza, that nation's largest Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization. La Raza working to legalize millions of illegal aliens in this country, opposing the president's plan for an expanded presence of our National Guard on the border with Mexico. Janet, it's good to have you here.
JANET MURGUIA, PRESIDENT, NAT'L COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: Nice to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: Why do you oppose securing the border with National Guard troops, if indeed that is what would be the result?
MURGUIA: Well just to be clear, we do understand that we have to as Americans have the prerogative to secure our borders and we understand that enhanced enforcement is a necessary part of the solution to comprehensive immigration reform. But we do have some serious concerns about sending National Guard troops to the border. We think that they're not the ones that are most appropriate to, I think, protect the border.
DOBBS: Who would we be?
MURGUIA: Two governors who are on those border states are very concerned about how they would be utilized, Governor Richardson and Governor Schwarzenegger. I think this just raises a lot of questions about whether we are militarizing an area.
DOBBS: What would be wrong with militarizing the border with Mexico? And just hypothetically here -- Mexico is the source, the greatest source of cocaine, heroin, meth and marijuana entering the United States today.
We've been in a 20-year drug war. It is the largest source of illegal immigration. What is it going to take for us to awaken to the need to secure that border?
MURGUIA: We need comprehensive reform. And when you do just put one element of enforcement, which would be the National Guard or only enforcement alone, you're not really dealing with the problem.
DOBBS: Right.
MURGUIA: We can't have piece meal solutions to this problem. We need to make sure we're dealing with the undocumented workforce that's here and that has been here contributing mightily to this economy and making a lot of important contributions and we have to deal with the future flow of workers. And until you do that three-legged stool, it all collapses. So enforcement only and National Guard troops alone are not going to solve this problem.
DOBBS: Let's identify the problem, sort of break them apart. Because when people start this comprehensive immigration reform, as the president's done, it sounds to me like political obfuscation. It seems to me there are two issues. One, we have a border security crisis. Two, we have an illegal immigration problem. Right?
MURGUIA: We have a broken immigration system.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And a disaster. And I don't think people even understand that the degree to which, because we in the national media have done a poor job of explaining it. Do you know how many people are backlogged into our legal immigration system in this country?
MURGUIA: That's right.
DOBBS: Millions of people.
MURGUIA: But that's why we need the fix. But the fix cannot just be enforcement alone. We need to be able to deal with those folks who have been here. We know that practically speaking we can't round up everybody and send them back. We've got to be able...
DOBBS: ... Wait, wait, wait. This country, can I beg to differ with you?
MURGUIA: Sure.
DOBBS: I'm not calling for deportation.
MURGUIA: OK.
DOBBS: But I really resent when anyone, particularly elected officials in this country say there's something we can't do. There was a time in this country that we as Americans could do anything, and if we put our mind to do it and had the will, we can do it.
MURGUIA: That's not a practical, effective way to solve the problem and that's what we need to realize.
DOBBS: Well it may not be the preferred way, but it's not because we can't, it's because we choose not to.
MURGUIA: Well let's deal with how do we solve the problem? Let's get to the solutions. We've identified lots of different ways of where we have the broken system.
DOBBS: You tell me. We've got 12-to-20 million people in this country illegally. Do we simply give them amnesty?
MURGUIA: No and nobody's talking about amnesty, Lou. We've talked about those people.
DOBBS: The president's talking about amnesty. MURGUIA: No we're not talking about amnesty. We're talking about earned legalization. No one is talking about immediately forgiving these folks and having them come into this country and stay. We're talking about making sure they go to the back of the line. They have to pay fines. They have to make sure they are learning English. There's a lot of steps that we have to make sure that they would go through. This is not amnesty, and I think we disagree on this.
DOBBS: Yes.
MURGUIA: But you keep perpetuating this notion that it is.
DOBBS: I'm not perpetuating anything. I'm simply reporting on the facts. The facts are that we would be giving, under the Senate legislation right now, five million people, people who have been in this country five years or more, get a pass.
MURGUIA: Nobody's getting a pass.
DOBBS: Two to five years.
MURGUIA: Nobody's getting a pass.
DOBBS: Two to five years they get a semi-pass and if you're under two years, good luck.
MURGUIA: That's your interpretation, but that is not the interpretation of the majority of those who are working on this bill.
DOBBS: You know what, I'm proud you distinguished me and complimented me in that way. In terms of border security, I know you've got a group of radicals, particularly out in Los Angeles, working within the Hispanic activists, Latino activist community nationwide.
How big a problem are they posing for you in moving forward? You're caught, it seems to me, because I know you to be a reasonable and a directed person, with specific goals, some of which I disagree with.
But nonetheless, there is a radical group trying to move forward to the leadership of the overall movement, if you will, the amnesty movement. How difficult is that making your life?
MURGUIA: Well the Latino community and the Hispanic community in this country is not a monolithic group. Everyone has different perspectives, as you know, and everyone has different approaches for how they want to solve this problem.
DOBBS: But I was talking about the amnesty activist organizations nationwide and the movement.
MURGUIA: There are folks who have different approaches to this problem.
DOBBS: They are not causing you a problem? MURGUIA: No. I think everybody has to be engaged. I feel like we need to make sure we're communicating that we need comprehensive immigration reform.
DOBBS: How do you say kumbaya in Spanish?
MURGUIA: Peace.
DOBBS: Janet as always, it's nice to see you.
MURGUIA: Yes, it's nice to see you, thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, I'll be joining Wolf Blitzer for a special edition of "THE SITUATION ROOM." Wolf is here now with a preview. Wolf?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou, good to have you in Washington.
Our special coverage of the president's upcoming address begins right at the top of the hour. National Guard troops to the border and a Republican Party divided. We're taking the speech live. We're covering all sides of this story, including our special guests, Senator Ted Kennedy, Congressman Tom Tancredo, Univision anchor Maria Elena Salinas, our political analysts James Carville and Torie Clarke, and you, Lou Dobbs. All of you will be joining us right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM." Lou, get ready.
DOBBS: I'm ready, looking forward to it, Wolf. Thank you very much.
Coming up here next, President Bush, betting he can sell an illegal alien amnesty program to the American people and to his splintered political party. Three of the nation's top political analysts join me to discuss the president's bold gamble this evening, and his prospects for success or failure. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush tonight has an important chance to show his leadership and prove he is committed to border security and real immigration reform. The president's speech from the White House could be one of the most important speeches of his presidency. Joining me tonight here in Washington, Chicago Tribune columnist Clarence Paige. Good to have with us. Washington Times editorial page editor, Tony Blankley, and our senior political analyst here at CNN, Bill Schneider. Good to have you with us.
Let me turn to you, Clarence, first, do you expect bold things from this president tonight?
CLARENCE PAGE, COLUMNIST, CHICAGO TRIBUNE: Well, we've been getting a lot of preview from all the discussion about the troops on the border, National Guard troops. I expect that will be the strongest concrete, proposal, because the president, I expect, is going to put an emphasis on one of our favorite issues, securing the borders. That is one issue around which he can build a consensus. He's got to bring people together.
I think that, along with the overall importance of legal immigration will be two big themes for him.
DOBBS: Tony?
TONY BLANKLEY, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: I think any president should get his say before we pundits rip him apart. But what he --
DOBBS: But?
BLANKLEY: But what he must not say, what he must not say, and I hope I won't hear is merely symbols, gestures and rhetoric. What he needs to do is provide specific, credible plans for securing the border. If he does that, he's a long way to rebuilding his base. If he doesn't, and I -- based on his past utterances, one fears he will not go down that path, then I think we have even more trouble with the base than we have currently.
DOBBS: Bill, he's taking 17 minutes, the White House leads us to believe, in the speech tonight from the Oval Office. That's going to have to be a power-packed 17 minutes.
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's going to be, and we'll be looking very carefully to see the emphasis he puts on three different issues. Border security is likely to be the strongest emphasis. That's where there's a consensus in the country. You called it a crisis. It is a crisis.
Most people think it's a crises, his base believes it's a crisis. No problem there. What about the guest-worker program? Is he going to talk about it? How much emphasis is he going to put on that? Because there most people are very suspicious of that. His base doesn't like it, the public isn't enthusiastic, how do you get the guests to leave? I'm going to be watching to see what he says about it.
DOBBS: And the idea -- Senator Jeff Sessions saying the numbers after they've done analysis here at the -- and I believe at the Heritage Institute, a four to five times the levels of legal immigration into the country, as a result. We're bringing in just under a million people legally every year into this country. Those are huge numbers, Tony.
BLANKLEY: When you start looking inside the Senate bill, it looks worse and worse from -- from any responsible point of view. And those numbers that Heritage came out with today are pretty damning. With The Washington Times will be running an editorial tomorrow that will be discussing that in detail off of those numbers, and if those numbers are what's in the final legislation, I think it's going to be a lot of extreme disappoint. Not just among conservatives, but well beyond that.
DOBBS: And, Clarence, the idea of putting, whatever the number is 3,000, 6,000, 10,000 National Guard troops on our border, but not moving them to the border to actually apprehend, to detain illegal aliens, how much -- how much effect can they have?
PAGE: Well, we've already got about 350 National Guard on the border as support. We're looking at maybe 5,000 or 6,000 more support. That is in my mind, a token force. If you really wanted to seal the border, quote-unquote, you build a wall. We can physically do that. That is what Duncan Hunter wants to do. But I don't think most of the country wants to do that, but the people that live along the border want to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Polls show that most people do want to see that fence go up, not a wall.
PAGE: It depends on how you word the poll, et cetera. Ask people are you willing to pay a dollar extra per head of lettuce for that wall and you might get a little different reaction.
DOBBS: Right.
PAGE: Or ask people if they will put up with taxicab drivers, et cetera. Americans have learned to live with a make-believe border security policy, Lou. They've learned to live with a steady flow of cheap labor. It causes problems for low-income workers, but it also has been a benefit for middle-class Americans, so Bush has to walk that political line.
DOBBS: We won't get into the benefit for middle-class Americans, but I will say --
PAGE: We're talking politics. We're talking about perception here, that's politics.
DOBBS: Okay, you've got it. Bill Schneider, your thoughts? The president is taking a huge political risk. This is a man with his poll numbers, as you've reported night after night, at the lowest point of his presidency, historical lows compared to three other presidents, only three other joining him in this. What are the risks for him tonight?
SCHNEIDER: He doesn't have a lot of credibility, that's his biggest problem. So whatever he says, people are going to be skeptical. It looks like he's going to be talking about earned citizenship, which he insists is not amnesty, and that's where the conservative base and the people are on very different pages.
He is going to be talking about very risky subjects. He has to talk about a guest-worker plan, which most people have no confidence in. He's probably going to talk about some form of earned citizenship, and no one knows exactly how that's going to work.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, Tony Blankley, Clarence Page. Thank you very much. We'll be talking right after the president addresses the nation. Thank you, gentlemen.
Still ahead, the results of our poll. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now, the results of tonight's poll: 96 percent of you say you will not vote to re-elect your congressmen and senators if they vote for a guest worker amnesty program. Let's take a look at some more of your thoughts.
Gail in Virginia saying, "President Bush seems to have finally listened to the American people and will move troops to secure the border, but given his stand on illegal immigration, do you think he's sending them to escort the illegals safely into the United States."
Charles from North Carolina. "Lou, I'm sorry to hear you will be broadcasting from Washington, D.C. tonight. Be careful, you don't want to catch whatever the president and our congress members have. Whatever it is made them totally stupid."
Well we're trying to avoid every contact with whatever that is. Thanks for the warning and the concern. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose email is read here will receive a copy of my book, "Exporting America," and a copy of The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Thanks for being with us. I'll be back with Wolf Blitzer with a special edition of this broadcast at 8:30 eastern time following the president's speech.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" starts right now with Wolf Blitzer.
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