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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush White House Defends Conduct of War on Terror; More Troops to Iraq From Kuwait; Major Rioting in Kabul After U.S. Truck in Traffic Accident; Showdown Over FBI Raid On Congressman's Office; Pete King Interview
Aired May 30, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, major new questions about the president's conduct of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as hundreds of U.S. reinforcements arrive in Iraq and our troops face escalating violence as well in Afghanistan.
And tonight, there's been a huge increase in the number of illegal aliens trying to cross our southern border after the Senate voted to give amnesty to millions of illegal aliens.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Tuesday, May 30th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, the war in Iraq appears to have reached a major turning point. Fifteen hundred more of our soldiers have been deployed to the violent Al Anbar province west of Baghdad from Kuwait. The arrival of these reinforcements suggests the military could be preparing for a major battle against the insurgents.
At the same time, our military is facing sharply escalating violence as well in Afghanistan. There is heavy security in Kabul tonight after the worst violence in the Afghan capital since the war began.
Suzanne Malveaux reports tonight from the White House on the Bush administration's efforts to sell its strategy for victor in the war on terror.
And Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon on the deployment of hundreds of American reinforcements to the Al Anbar Province.
We turn to Suzanne Malveaux first -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the Bush administration, of course, is counting on this new permanent Iraqi government to turn things around, essentially to reign in the terrorists, as well as the insurgents. But we've seen in the last 10 days since its installment, bloody, bloody battles, and also a renewed sense here at the White House for the need to be upbeat.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MALVEAUX (voice-over): This is the picture on the ground today. At least 38 killed and 97 wounded from insurgent attacks and bombings in Baghdad and beyond.
This is a picture the White House wants Americans to focus on. The Iraq's new ambassador to the U.S. getting credentialed in the Oval Office.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States stands ready to help the Iraqi democracy succeed.
MALVEAUX: While Mr. Bush continues to try to call attention to the political progress in Iraq, the Pentagon announced it is now taking even more robust measures to deal with its security, moving some 1,500 U.S. troops from neighboring Kuwait to the Anbar province in Iraq. The battle is especially bloody.
Today, the CBS correspondent Kimberly Dozier, who was wounded by a roadside bomb attack Monday was moved to a U.S. base in Germany for further treatment.
GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY, U.S. ARMY (RET): Iraq is abject misery.
MALVEAUX: That's the assessment from a retired four star Army general who just returned from Iraq and was invited to the White House to give Mr. Bush his perspective.
MCCAFFREY: I think it's a terribly dangerous place for diplomats and journalists and contractors and Iraqi mothers. Trying to go about daily life in that city is a real nightmare for these poor people.
MALVEAUX: The Bush administration is now trying to balance the need for cracking down on the insurgency, while not appearing heavy handed.
BUSH: I think the biggest mistake that happened so far at least from our country's involvement in Iraq is Abu Ghraib. We have been paying for that for a long period of time.
MALVEAUX: But officials worry the scandal of Abu Ghraib may pale in comparison to what military investigators uncover out of the western Iraqi city of Haditha. Pentagon sources say they suspect a small group of Marines massacred several dozen Iraqi citizens last November in retaliation for a killing of one of their own. The administration is now bracing itself for another potential crisis.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: You don't do damage control. What you try to do is find out what the facts are.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And White House officials warn, of course, not to prejudge the outcome of the investigation. They also say that details will be made available to the public. Those same officials, however, acknowledge that this could be an incredible challenge to this administration that has already worked so hard to resuscitate its image -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you.
Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Peter Pace, says the military is conducting two investigations into the Haditha incident. One of those investigations will examine the killings themselves. The other investigation will look into whether or not there was a military cover-up. Military sources say the investigation could lead to murder charges against some Marines and charges of dereliction of duty against other Marines.
Insurgents have killed two more of our troops in Iraq. One soldier was killed by small arms fire in the northern city of Mosul. The other soldier was killed by a roadside bomb southeast of Baghdad. Two thousand four hundred seventy of our troops have now been killed, 18,184 troops wounded. Of those, 8,344 seriously.
As we reported, the military is deploying 1,500 more troops to Iraq from Kuwait. That deployment indicates the military will be unable to withdraw large numbers of our troops from Iraq anytime soon.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as CNN reported first on Friday, the U.S. military is moving 1,500 troops. That's a two-brigade task force from that so-called call forward force that has been on standby in Kuwait for just such an eventuality. But as you said, the deployment of troops into a dangerous area of Iraq is a tacit admission that in the short term things are not getting better in central Iraq and that the prospect for troops withdrawals are such that they won't happen anytime soon.
The U.S. military says that the situation in Al Anbar province is "currently a challenge, but not representative of the overall security situation in Iraq." Al Anbar and Baghdad province are two areas where insurgents have control of areas and the U.S. military is in need of more support to back that up.
Now, the U.S. contends that the Iraqi security forces are doing better. But today they were unable to say if there was yet a single Iraqi unit that could operate entirely independent of the U.S.
And, Lou, today the U.S. also -- the Pentagon sent the Congress a report measuring stability in Iraq, an annual report by -- required by Congress. And if I may, let me just read you one small part of it, an indication of how things are going.
It says, "Some hard-line Sunni rejectionists have joined al Qaeda in Iraq in recent months, increasing the terrorist attack options." "The MNI -- that's the multinational forces -- "expects that rejectionist strength will likely remain steady through 2006," but they say they think their appeal and motivation for continued violence will wane in 2007.
At least that's the hopeful assessment of this report to Congress -- Lou.
DOBBS: A hopeful assessment that perhaps does not take into account the charges arising from Haditha, the charges of a massacre there.
General Barry McCaffrey, very bleak and very few words today, standing at the White House before those microphones. Jamie, what is the reaction at the Pentagon?
MCINTYRE: To the situation in Iraq or to the situation in Haditha?
DOBBS: To the remarks by General McCaffrey about the situation in Iraq.
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, General McCaffrey is pretty well respected, as evidenced by the fact that he was invited to the White House. He sees a lot of positive things in Iraq, as well, but as you noted, his overall assessment is -- notes that there are significant challenges, as the Pentagon would say.
I think they respect his opinion. I think there's not a large debate that things aren't going that well at the moment. The big debate is whether they are going to get better and how soon and how you make that happen.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
Thank you.
Our troops in Afghanistan tonight are remaining inside their bases in Kabul after the worst day of violence in that city since the fall of the Taliban. The rioting began after a U.S. military truck was involved in a traffic accident. At least eight people were killed in the resulting violence.
Barbara Starr now reports from Kabul.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It began Monday morning, after a U.S. military truck crashed into a dozen Afghan vehicles when its brakes failed. An angry mob soon surrounded the U.S. convoy.
BRIG. NICK POPE, BRITISH ARMY: There was some evidence that a lot of the crowds, which are normal crowds who just arrive on the scene to see what's happening, were incited by a very small group of individuals.
STARR: This young man says he thinks the Taliban may be trying to stir up trouble.
(on camera): Here in one of Kabul's poorest neighborhoods, the people say they don't want any more violence. They want security. (voice-over): It's now estimated that more than a thousand people may have participated in shooting, rocket-throwing, looting and torching. U.S. troops involved in the initial accident have told their commanders they definitely saw weapons being fired at them from the crowd and they fired only to defend themselves. And coalition sources say not firing just over the crowd, but into it.
But everyone is shocked at how quickly Kabul, an island of relative stability in Afghanistan, spiraled into violence. People here say it is a sign that many in the country are growing increasingly upset at the U.S. presence, but also feel Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government has a long way to go before it can assure people of their security.
Barbara Starr, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, one of the most powerful opponents of the Senate's illegal alien amnesty bill, Congressman Pete King, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, joins us.
Also tonight, there's been a huge increase in the number of illegal aliens crossing our southern border since the Senate passed its pro-amnesty legislation. We'll have that special report for you.
And voters express their fury at members of Congress and political candidates who support the Senate's pro-amnesty agenda. That report.
And President Bush has nominated a top Wall Street executive to be the next Treasury secretary, but will a man who earned tens of millions of dollars a year on Wall Street do anything to stop the war on our middle class?
We'll have that story and a great deal more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Senate can no longer claim that the illegal alien amnesty bill is the will of the people. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist this weekend had the decency to admit it did express the will of the Senate. That Senate legislation and the president's calls for more willing workers have led to a rising number of illegal aliens crossing our border with Mexico.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every time the federal government moves closer to granting amnesty to millions of illegal aliens already in this country even more try to cross our broken borders.
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: Amnesty is wrong. And even Mexican government officials have said that the talk of amnesty is actually increasing the flow of illegal immigrants across the border as we speak.
WIAN: Sensenbrenner told "Meet the Press" that Mexico is beefing up security forces along the southern border to try to stop illegal aliens from crossing. It's an attempt to reduce the number who will die in the desert now that temperatures are rising.
But the effort is failing. The Border Patrol says illegal alien deaths are up 43 percent since October. And in Arizona's Yuma sector over the Memorial Day Weekend, agents apprehended their 1,000th illegal alien this fiscal year, nearly a month ahead of last year's pace. Arizona residents are outraged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the heck are these guys smoking back in D.C.? I have a message for Congress. Read my lips, no more amnesty.
WIAN: John Goldwater is running for governor. He joined Minuteman Project volunteers to begin construction of a border fence on 10 miles of private Arizona ranch land. They had a message for President Bush.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now George, see how easy this is?
WIAN: Hundreds of volunteers completed the first two and a half miles of fence over the weekend. They've donated more than $400,000, and some traveled thousands of miles to help, including Congressman Steve King from Iowa.
REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: This bill that passed in the Senate was Vicente Fox's bill, President Bush's bill, and Teddy Kennedy's bill. And that's not the coalition that we need setting immigration policy, unless they are willing to do a mea culpa and stand up for our forces.
WIAN: As Mexican reporters and government aid workers watched from across the border, minutemen say at least this section is secure for now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The Border Patrol, meanwhile, continues to be stretched thin. Resources are now being consumed by rescues in the Arizona desert. Nearly 2,000 so far this year, about 50 percent more than last year -- Lou.
DOBBS: Remarkable. And this -- and there is just no sign whatsoever of it slowing at all, is there?
WIAN: Absolutely not. And these people who live along the border, and even people who live far away from the border whose communities are affected, are fed up and it and they are starting to do something about it. They're taking things into their own hands and going down there and helping them build fences -- Lou.
DOBBS: Perhaps, perhaps the United States Congress is paying some attention. We can only hope.
Casey, thank you.
Casey Wian, from Los Angeles.
Tonight, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow is attempting to clarify remarks he made last week to the "Washington Examiner" on the illegal alien crisis. In that interview, Tony Snow appeared to have compared the crime of illegal immigration to that of a traffic violation.
Snow said, "If you had a traffic ticket and you paid it, you're not forever a speeder. We have come up with a way to make sure that the debt to society gets paid, then you move forward."
Tony Snow tells us today his remarks were taken out of context. He says he meant to express the idea that, "In our system of justice, you need to pay a punishment after breaking the law that should be judged according to the severity of the crime." Snow says he never tried to suggest that speeding is as severe a crime as crossing into this country illegally.
Nonetheless, that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you agree with the press secretary that people who cross our border illegally should be able to pay their debt to society and move forward just like someone who had a speeding ticket? Yes or no?
Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here later.
Tonight, a growing number of our nation's elected representatives are finding their political careers in some jeopardy because they support amnesty for illegal aliens. Those elected officials who decided to vote against the wishes of their constituents could soon find themselves punished by the very same constituents at the polls.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six years ago, Mike DeWine won his Ohio Senate seat with 60 percent of the vote. Fast forward, now the Republican incumbent is trailing his opponent by three percentage points. DeWine's vote last week for a guest worker amnesty bill is further withering his base political support.
ROY BECK, NUMBERSUSA: This year is the year that we could actually see some incumbents lose their office on immigration almost alone.
SYLVESTER: Fourteen Republican senators are up for re-election. Of those, four voted for the Senate immigration bill.
Last week's vote may have not only impacted the Senate races, but also the 2008 presidential bids. Senator Sam Brownback's pro-amnesty stance has likely cost him any chance in the Republican presidential primary, but he offered no apologies.
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK (R), KANSAS: If it does, it does.
SYLVESTER: On the House side, Republicans are also feeling the heat. Utah Representative Chris Cannon, who supports amnesty, was denied the state GOP's official endorsement, despite the fact that Cannon's brother is the head of that state's GOP organization.
ALAN LAPERRIERE, INTERNATIONAL STRATEGY & DEVELOPMENT: I think that there is a bit of a backlash on -- of the Republican base against Republican members of Congress. And you're seeing it, I think, in the case of the immigration issue.
SYLVESTER: In races that are too close to call, many Democrats are also opposing amnesty. Senator Ben Nelson voted against the Senate bill, a top concern for his constituents.
SEN. BEN NELSON (D), NEBRASKA: If you don't secure the borders first and have a strong enforcement of that, that the 11 million or 12 million here can multiply and double or triple in the next 20 years, that's what people have a fear of.
SYLVESTER: Former House speaker Tip O'Neill once said that all politics is local. It's especially true for Democrats and Republicans up for re-election who are confronting the illegal immigration issue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Fifty-eight percent of Republicans in the Senate voted against the amnesty bill, versus nine percent of Democrats. In the House, where all lawmakers are up for re-election, 93 percent of Republicans and 17 percent of Democrats voted against amnesty and in favor of an enforcement-only approach -- Lou.
DOBBS: So, obviously an overwhelming number of Democrats voted for amnesty.
SYLVESTER: Indeed. In fact, you've got -- you see the situation. You can take a look at the numbers. And one of the things that you can glean from these numbers, if you will, Lou, is you can see that it's going to be quite a fight when it comes to the conference committee, because you have a solid number of Republicans and some Democrats, one in five Democrats, opposed to amnesty in the House -- Lou.
DOBBS: Incredible. Thank you very much. It's sort of interesting that sign on the floor, of the Senate. Senator Ben Nelson standing there before it.
A very simple message. It just said, "Border security first." It seems -- it seems so straightforward, doesn't it?
SYLVESTER: It does, indeed. And the good question is, why hasn't his Democratic colleagues -- Ben Nelson obviously sees that point of view -- why his other Democratic colleagues have not taken the same position -- Lou. DOBBS: And it's a little stunning that not many Republicans have figured it out either, at least in the Senate.
Thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
To write your senators in Congress and tell them how you feel on any issue, go to our Web site, LouDobbs.com, where we provide links to the Web sites of all of our elected officials in Washington, D.C. And you'll also find on the Web site a complete list of how your senator and congressmen and women voted on last week's amnesty bill.
Still ahead, three of the nation's most popular radio talk show hosts join me here to tell us what they are hearing from their listeners.
Also tonight, President Bush has named Henry Paulson as the new Treasury secretary, his nomination of a man who earned more than $30 million a year while on Wall Street. Will that fellow be fighting for your job in the war on the middle class? We'll have a special report coming up here next.
Then Congressman Pete King, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, he could be one of the lead negotiators shaping final immigration and border security legislation, if it comes to that.
And the FBI under fire on Capitol Hill today, not for warrantless wiretaps, but for going after a congressman with 90,000 bucks in his freezer. It's still the best government money can buy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today's replacement of Treasury Secretary John Snow is the latest cabinet secretary change in less than three months. To replace him is Goldman Sachs CEO Henry Paulson. If approved, Paulson would be the third secretary treasury of the Bush administration. Will Paulson make a difference in the Bush administration?
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only minutes elapsed between John Snow's resignation and the appointment of Henry Paulson to succeed him. Not much pomp in the Rose Garden, but the new Treasury secretary faces daunting circumstances.
HENRY PAULSON, TREASURY SECRETARY NOMINEE: We must take steps to maintain our competitive edge in the world.
PILGRIM: What competitive edge? With 30 years of consecutive trade deficits, Paulson has said, "The trade balance is a problem; the fact is we're on just not exporting enough."
On China, the U.S. trade deficit continues to grow to more than $200 billion last year. But the president didn't press Paulson to fix the problem.
BUSH: He will help ensure that our trading partners play by the rules, respecting our intellectual property rights and maintain flexible market-based exchange rates for their currencies.
PILGRIM: On the record budget deficit, Paulson isn't calling for higher taxes. He previously stated, "The United States can only reduce its budget deficit through further growth and greater spending discipline."
But the real question is, does Paulson share President Bush's rosy view of the economy?
CHRISTIAN WELLER, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: This administration has a credibility gap when it comes to economic policy. On the one hand, I think people are worried about rising costs and a flat labor market,. On the other hand, I think financial markets are worried about the budget deficits and the trade deficits. I don't think he will necessarily speak to the worries of America's middle class.
PILGRIM: Rising debt, skyrocketing bankruptcy rates, soaring energy prices and out of control cost increases on health care, education and housing all taking their toll on the middle class.
ISABEL SAWHILL, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: The middle class is not doing very well. Their incomes have been flat for a number of years now. Real wages have not been going up for the middle class.
PILGRIM: The middle class has not figured prominently for any of the two previous Bush administration Treasury secretaries.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, it's unlikely this Treasury secretary will be a marked departure from his predecessors so long as the president does not change policy and has been neglect on trade deficit, the budget deficit, and on the middle class. It's not likely to change in one person.
DOBBS: I think the expression is staying the course.
Kitty , thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Tom in Alabama wrote in to say, "Lou, we all know that justice is blind. After passing immigration reform, we now know that Congress is deaf. What does that leave the other branch of our government?" And Al in Arizona, "Lou, I wonder how the people of Mexico would react if their president, 62 of their senators, their newspaper editors, employers, mayors, et cetera, sold them out like ours have sold out the American people."
Mark in Illinois, "It is outrageous what our senators are doing. It makes me sick that they could even suggest that we should ask Mexico if it's OK to build a fence on our border. They day is coming in November."
Karen in Massachusetts, "Consult with Mexico? How about consulting with U.S. citizens?"
Interesting concept.
Michael in Arizona, "We can only hope and pray that the House is not as stupid as the Senate. Who does the Senate think they work for American citizens or illegal aliens?"
Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts coming up later in the broadcast.
Next, Congressman Pete King joins me. He opposes amnesty for illegal aliens. And we'll be talking about upcoming negotiations on so-called comprehensive immigration reform. Also known as amnesty.
And the Drum Major Institute doesn't like my stand on border security and illegal immigration and says so in an open letter it published last week. The institute's executive director, Andrea Schlesinger, joins us.
And three popular radio talk show hosts will be here to talk about illegal immigration, border security, and a lot more that's bothering their listeners.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New developments tonight in the showdown between Congress and the Justice Department over the first ever FBI raid on a congressman's office. The chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Congressman James Sensenbrenner, today declared he will order the attorney general and the FBI director to testify about that raid. The FBI raided Congressman William Jefferson's offices looking for evidence that the lawmaker took bribes.
Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Most Republican leaders say they just want to move on. Not the House Judiciary chairman.
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), JUDICIARY CMTE. CHAIRMAN: And then I want to have Attorney General Gonzalez and FBI Director Mueller up here to tell us how they reached the conclusion that they did.
BASH: Republican James Sensenbrenner announced he'll summon the two top Bush law enforcement officials to explain why they OK'd a raid on a lawmaker's office for the first time in history.
SENSENBRENNER: There's no reason to ignore the 219 years of success of separation of powers and checks and balances.
BASH: The chairman stacked this hearing with constitutional expert whose share his outrage.
CHARLES TIEFER, UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE: This raid had all the elements of unconstitutional executive intimidation.
JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIV.: A profound and almost gratuitous insult to a co-equal branch of government.
BASH: The witnesses said the Justice Department had not exhausted other options to get materials in Congressman Jefferson's office before searching it, like threatening jail, and they accused FBI agents of seizing privileged materials.
TIEFER: When you take the whole computer of a member of Congress, that means you are catching countless innocent constituents in there, in your dragnet.
BASH: The politics of this issue has been odd from the start, and it fell to a Democrat to suggest the Republican chairman was being unfair to the Bush White House.
REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D), MARYLAND: Far be it from me to defend the Executive Branch, but I just think in terms of getting all the facts out and the views, full range of views, that would be helpful to everybody.
BASH: Lawmakers from both parties expressed concern the raid violated the constitutional separation of powers, but they also tried to combat criticism they're out of touch and looking for special treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one is above the law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one is above the law.
REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: Some people have said, you guys are just defending Jefferson. And I agree, if they are talking about Thomas Jefferson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Meanwhile, the Justice Department formally rejected William Jefferson's demand it return all documents seized in the raid, rather, saying that would be inconsistent with the bedrock principle, no place of employment can be used as a sanctuary for a crime. And, Lou, another thing the Justice Department did today is they said they would give some copies of the documents to the congressman so he can make sure nothing that they took was privileged. Lou?
DOBBS: This is, at best, peculiar. Is Congress, as best you can ascertain, aware that most of the nation thinks that the reaction from the Republican leadership in the House looks like they are trying to take care of a comfort zone for corruption rather than a high and lofty principle of constitutional government and principle?
BASH: They are absolutely aware that is the growing, if not the, the prevailing perception out there in the real world, as we like to say here in Washington sometimes. And that's why you heard over and over today, the few congressmen, I should say, that did attend this hearing during a congressional recess say they realize that nobody is above the law, and that is certainly the line that they are using even as they, some of them, at least continue to fight this constitutional battle. Lou.
DOBBS: And no one is above the law, if, indeed, that law is enforced by this government, that seems to have quite a -- quite a difference of diffuse and varied outcome from time to time. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
Congressman Pete King of New York is the powerful chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, a leading critic of the illegal alien amnesty legislation the Senate passed and it's likely he'll be an important member of the House-Senate committee on comprehensive immigration reform, if that conference begins meeting anytime soon. And he joins us tonight from Long Island, New York. Congressman, good to have you here.
REP. PETE KING (R-NY) CHMN., HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: Lou, always good to be with you.
DOBBS: Let me turn first, we have reported tonight that the numbers are moving higher in illegal aliens crossing the border. Where are we headed with this piece of legislation?
DOBBS: Lou, I don't see how this could ever be considered in the House of Representatives the overwhelming majority of Republicans are against it. This is amnesty. The more the senators deny it, Democrat and Republican, the more they deny it, the more the president denies it, it's amnesty. And the American people don't want it. I've never seen a disconnect between the will of the people and the actions of elected officials as we've seen in the Senate.
And this is just a total disconnect, and as a Republican, our base is totally against it. But it goes beyond it, these are Reagan Republicans, and Democrats, independents, moderates, across the board people are opposed. They want border security first.
DOBBS: Senator Frist managed to say this weekend that the legislation expressed the will of the Senate. Isn't that lovely? What happened to the will of the people?
KING: The will of the Senate was not the will of the people. What really offends me about this is they say it has to be comprehensive, which means, on the one hand we have to protect the rights of the American people by having border security.
On the other hand we have to protect the rights of illegal immigrants. So they are suggesting there's an equivalency between the rights of legal Americans and the rights of illegal immigrants, and you can't do both at the same time. So they are trying to balance the two, and when you do that, you're never going to get border security.
After 20 years of promises, we don't have border security. There's no reason to think we're going to get it now unless we focus all our at attention on that.
DOBBS: And four and a half years after September 11, can a Republican administration, is it possible for this White House to comprehend, for that Senate to comprehend, there are about 280 million Americans out here who deserve protection at their ports and at their borders and that the people aren't -- I have to tell you, Congressman, the response to this broadcast is, the people have -- are sick and tired. They've had a belly full of the nonsense. They want the borders secured. They want the ports secured, and really don't want to hear any more about free trade and impediments to commerce.
KING: No, the American people that have ever been heard on any issue, this is the one if anyone is listening, the voice of the American people is clear. They want border security first. I tell you, my district, which is -- which, you know, Bill Clinton carried it twice, Al Gore carried it in 2000, President Bush barely carried in it 2004, but it's overwhelmingly, not even close, they want border security first. They don't want any amnesty, any legalization. They want the border secured first.
And, you're right, it's almost now, almost five years since September 11. And border security is homeland security. Our world changed on September 11. If there was ever the luxury of looking the other way on illegal immigration, it ended on September 11. We have to secure the border, not just for economic and cultural and social reasons, we have to secure it to preserve our security, our homeland security.
DOBBS: Congressman Pete King, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. Good to have you with us. We appreciate it.
Still ahead, I'll be talking with one of my leading critics on illegal immigration and border security reform and three of the nation's leading talk show hosts will be here to tell us what their listeners are saying about the latest White House shake-up and a host of other issues and the Senate's cave-in, of course, on illegal alien amnesty. Stay with us for that and a great deal more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Drum Major Institute for Public Policy, a liberal think tank, is criticizing my position on illegal immigration and border security. In what they called an open letter to Lou Dobbs, the institute's executive director wrote, "We share a distaste for Guest Worker Programs and other efforts that create an underclass of exploited workers." The letter goes on to say my, quote, "commitment to securing the borders needs to be matched by a commitment to creating good jobs in this country," end quote.
Andrea Batista Schlesinger is the executive director of the Drum Major Institute. Thanks for being here.
ANDREA BATISTA SCHLESINGER, DRUM MAJOR INST.: Thank you.
DOBBS: Let's start with the first issue. I have said for a long time now, we can't reform immigration if we can't control it. We can't control immigration if we cannot secure our ports and our borders. Where does that logic fail?
SCHLESINGER: Three quick points. The first is that your viewers need to know that the middle class actually has a vested interest in this debate. They are positively impacted by the role of immigrants in the economy. So that's the first piece.
The second thing is, knowing that, the only way that we can create comprehensive remedy to an immigration system that we agree is broken is if we both recognize the critical role that immigrants play in the economy, and then direct our attention toward the private sector that is interested in pitting immigrant versus middle class worker, for their bottom line, not the bottom line of Americans.
DOBBS: All right, since you won't respond to my syllogism, I'll respond to yours. Is that all right?
SCHLESINGER: Sure.
DOBBS: First, you used the word "immigrant." Are we talking about illegal immigrants or legal immigrants?
SCHLESINGER: We're talking about the legal and illegal immigrants, do play a critical role in the economy.
DOBBS: Yes, but this issue before the United States Senate and soon to be before the House and conference is about illegal immigrants.
SCHLESINGER: Yes, yes.
DOBBS: And illegal immigrants number somewhere between 11 and 20 million people in this country. What is their positive contribution, as you see it, to the middle class?
SCHLESINGER: Sure. The middle class -- the illegal immigrants are workers, they are consumers. I'm sure your viewers know that 10 percent of the Social Security surplus paid for by illegal immigrants. They paid over $1 billion in taxes to the Social Security system. Two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Social Security taxes.
DOBBS: OK, you've read the Congressional Budget Office study...
SCHLESINGER: Yes. DOBBS: ... for the purpose of Senator Specter, as the manager of the legislation, pushing it through. Even at its best, the Congressional Budget Office came up with a $27 billion shortfall of -- between taxes and the social costs of taking care of illegal immigrants in this country.
SCHLESINGER: Well, that shortfall was between what immigrants -- illegal immigrants pay into the system and how much it would cost to implement that legislation at it is, which doesn't necessarily do what I think both of us want to do, which is benefit the current and aspiring middle class.
DOBBS: So let's go to the second part of the issue.
SCHLESINGER: It's not just the Social Security taxes. It's also...
DOBBS: Well, first of all, Social Security taxes, you have illegal aliens defrauding the system, using false documents and false identification, both of which are felonies. Amnesty in this case is not simply a speeding ticket, as Tony Snow, in my opinion, had it. It's a felony offense the way it's being carried out by most illegal aliens.
I understand the economic and the social motivation. That's not the issue. The issue is, what is the impact on the middle class? You know that George Borjas at Harvard University has estimated the cost in depressing wages in this country each year at $200 billion. At the second level, at the lowest wage level in this country, the lowest quintile, we're looking at about an 8 percent decline in wages, real decline in wages.
SCHLESINGER: But, Mr. Dobbs, that's under a context in which we have a broken system, in which we've essentially given a green light to big business to say exploit, exploit, exploit. And then what will we do? We'll let the immigration advocates battle it out with the secure-the-border folks, and we'll just sit back and hope for a policy.
DOBBS: They're the same people, as you know. The same people, Andrea. Corporate America, big unions, and nearly all of them, in conjunction with special interests and liberal political groups are pushing this as fast and as hard as they can. They've gotten this thing through this White House and this Senate. And the last line of defense for the middle class in this country and those who aspire to it, U.S. citizens, is the House of Representatives.
SCHLESINGER: I think what the middle class needs to know is the full picture. Look, we say that government can't walk and chew gum at the same time. But we need to be able to in our job...
DOBBS: No, let's put it this way: This government can't.
SCHLESINGER: OK.
DOBBS: Government should. SCHLESINGER: This -- absolutely. This government can't, so we need to. So we both -- we can talk about securing the borders and securing our bottom line. That means talking about the immigrants, illegal also, who purchase homes, who are consumers, who start businesses, a $220 billion Hispanic market in this country. They do have an important contribution.
DOBBS: Don't confuse, please. This is the one place where we part company. Don't confuse Hispanic and illegal alien. We have 40 million Hispanics in this country, the vast majority of whom are legal citizens of this country, and I think it does a horrible disservice to them to create this equation.
I think it's politically efficacious to do so, and lots of people do it, but these are Americans just like, you know, every other group. You can slice and dice them, they are absolutely a fundamental part of this economy. We understand that. A fundamental part of our society. Why equate Hispanic with illegal alien?
SCHLESINGER: I don't, especially as the child of an immigrant. My point is that the middle class has a vested interest in a policy that is going to work.
DOBBS: Right. We all have that vested interest, and especially American citizens.
Andrea, come back. We'll talk more. We appreciate you being here.
SCHLESINGER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Also ahead, three of the country's most popular talk show hosts join me to tell us what their listeners are saying about illegal immigration, the war on the middle class, and the war in Iraq. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf, tell us all about it.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Lou.
Violence raging in Iraq, and there's an investigation of a potential massacre of unarmed Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines. We're covering all sides of the story. The new Iraqi ambassador to the United States and Congressman John Murtha, they are here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Plus, the start of the hurricane season now just two days off. Are we ready for the next big one? The commandant of the Coast Guard, Admiral Thad Allen, is here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Also, from Wall Street to the White House. President Bush picks a new treasury secretary. We'll take a closer look at the politics and the economics, Lou, all coming up right at the top of the hour. DOBBS: Looking forward to it. Thank you, Wolf.
Joining me now, Bob Pickett of KISS-FM in New York, Laura Flanders of Air America Radio, and Joe Madison, the host of "The Black Eagle" on WOL-AM in Washington, D.C. Good to have you back.
JOE MADISON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
DOBBS: Let me turn first to you, Bob. The idea that William Jefferson, Congressman Jefferson has set off a constitutional crisis in the minds of at least a few people in the Republican leadership, how is that going to unwind?
BOB PICKETT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I think, ultimately there will be some sort of agreement to disagree on how the executive branch proceeded in going after his records and information.
I think the bottom line here is that if Congressman Jefferson has committed a crime and has refused to cooperate with the authorities, then I think, you know, quite frankly, that the FBI probably did what they were supposed to do, and go after that crime, and go after evidence that could lead to other evidence.
LAURA FLANDERS, AIR AMERICA RADIO: I mean, what I'm excited to see, is you've got a Congress finally concerned about somebody's privacy, they are concerned about theirs, what about ours? We've got a constitutional crisis here and it wasn't triggered by Jefferson, although I'm not here to defend him, I don't think there is anyone out there defending him. But thank heavens Congress is finally defending the Constitution.
DOBBS: He had a lousy $90,000 in the freezer, come on.
FLANDERS: But all that the FBI had to do was get the Capitol police to agree. Why 18 hours? Why no consultation with the Capitol Police? Why take out the whole computer? What was on it?
DOBBS: And not only that, why did he ignore a subpoena for eight months?
FLANDERS: There was no excuse not to consult with the Capitol police.
DOBBS: Do you suppose, Joe, that Speaker Hastert was unaware that the Justice Department would like to have some cooperation here?
MADISON: I think that Speaker Hastert is concerned about the fact that he may be next, that there may be other members of Congress. That was the funniest part of the whole charade that took place. Here you have a conservative Republican congressman who comes to the defense of a liberal black Democratic congressman and says, "Oh, this is terrible, this is a constitutional crisis."
DOBBS: Well Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader is saying the very same day, "Mr. Jefferson, you've got to step away from the Ways and Means Committee," so there was a lot of confused loyalty here. MADISON: And in the "USA Today," DeWayne Wickham suggested that, and I agree with him, that either Jefferson comes clean or he should step down before the election. See, he wants to hold on until the election next November.
DOBBS: Don't they all? Don't they all?
FLANDERS: The target here needs not to be on the individual as much as our power-grabbing executive that you've written about. I mean, we've got an executive here that is out of control, and you had this morning, Bruce Fein, former -- you know, deputy attorney general for Ronald Reagan saying "You have been waiting to hold -- you know, to bring this executive up short and now is the time." They've trampled on laws around wiretapping, around the signing statement. We got to draw a line.
PICKETT: Let me disagree with you. I understand all that, and as a lawyer, I can appreciate and -- the balance that's needed between the executive branches and the judicial branch and the separation of powers.
But when you have a situation where Congressman Jefferson has deliberately refused to comply legally with -- he needed to comply, and quite frankly, I suspect in the back of the FBI's collective minds, they thought that he was going to, either get rid of evidence or...
FLANDERS: Why not allow him to have an attorney?
DOBBS: What do you think of the idea that Alberto Gonzales reportedly threatened to resign if they returned the documents to Congressman Jefferson's office? I thought that was...
MADISON: Look, I think -- I agree...
DOBBS: Everything gets frozen.
MADISON: The bottom line is this -- members of Congress are not above the law here. You know, look, if there was child pornography or drugs or other, you get a search warrant. And let me tell you, they got a search warrant.
DOBBS: Yep.
MADISON: So it was legal. If the FBI can come into my house after a search warrant or any of our homes with a legitimate search warrant, I'm saying that they can go into -- I don't care if they go into the Oval Office, as long as they legally have a search warrant.
FLANDERS: So they can go and get your campaign plans, they can go and get your information?
MADISON: If they have a search warrant and it's legal and if it's not legal, I'll hire him as my attorney.
DOBBS: Let's move on here. FLANDERS: Go to the Capitol police.
MADISON: And if it a crisis, take it to the Supreme Court.
PICKETT: That's right.
FLANDERS: Allow a lawyer to be there.
DOBBS: Very quickly. The idea that we will be sending more troops from Kuwait, moving forward, showing just how tough it's getting in Al Anbar. General Barry McCaffrey today using in very succinct language, describing a scene of some considerable concern for all of us in Iraq -- your reaction, Joe?
MADISON: My reaction is what I said when this happened back in March of 2003. What is the exit strategy? And, again, I can support the troops. I can love what they're doing. We just -- we just expressed our love for in this Memorial Day. But the problem is, this is a terribly managed war. The president did not listen to the generals. There's no exit strategy. No one enters a war without an exit strategy.
FLANDERS: You have a crisis of leadership and that's coming out from the military intelligence who are investigating this Haditha story. I mean, you've got a crisis now facing our troops that are in desperation, and I'm afraid it's just going to get worse. And it absolutely starts at the top. I don't want to see individual marines carrying the can for abuses that are the absolutely predictable result of the situation that they were put in.
MADISON: Like they did in Vietnam.
FLANDERS: Like they did with Abu Ghraib.
MADISON: Yes.
FLANDERS: And we need to -- leaders that stand up and take responsibility for the mess that we are in. And more troops? We're supposed to be bringing troops out.
PICKETT: You know, quite frankly, Lou, this sort of reinforces all of the generals over the last month and a half, their criticism and critique of the president. They have been saying all along, not enough boots on the ground in Iraq. And they're right, they're right.
DOBBS: No general's been fired, the president says more loss, more challenge and be patient. We're now pushing three and a half years. Is it time for generals to be fired for the conduct of this war, because as Joe says, we all support our troops and their bravery.
FLANDERS: It's time for Donald Rumsfeld to be fired, if anyone needs to be fired.
MADISON: Clearly.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Joe? MADISON: Bush should have been fired, but that's another story.
DOBBS: Bob, you get the last word now.
PICKETT: Rumsfeld and Bush are going to be fired in about two years. They are going to retire in about two years, but I vote for Rumsfeld to be fired first.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Bob, Joe, always good to see you.
Still ahead, we'll have the results of our poll and some more of your thoughts, right after this short break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, 96 percent of you do not agree with White House Press Secretary Tony Snow, who said people across our borders illegally should be able to pay their debt to society and move forward just like someone who had a speeding ticket.
Now, more of your thoughts.
Michael in Oregon wrote in to say: "Lou, our politicians have sold us out for the best interests of illegal immigrants and the Mexican government. We need to pay them back by firing each and every one of them."
And John in New Jersey: "Hey, Lou, is Vicente Fox going to ask Mr. Bush to borrow the "mission accomplished" banner? Happy Memorial Day. I'm sure all our veterans would be proud to know what they fought and died for."
Mark in California: "Lou, President Bush keeps saying that we want to allow Mexican workers to fill jobs that Americans aren't doing. Considering that the office of the president is designated to serve our citizens, can we include his job in that list?"
Mike in Illinois: "I'm getting almost as sick of hearing we can't stop the Mexican invasion as I am of hearing about the millions of jobs Americans won't do."
And Mike in Nevada: "Lou, do you think the people in Washington D.C. will ever realize we are Americans first and Democrats and Republicans second?"
And Jim in New Jersey: "Lou, besides telling Americans to go to hell, our government is sending our country to hell. Drug testing of all members of government should begin immediately."
Richard in California: "Lou, what happened to that can do spirit in this country? President Bush and some congressmen say we can't deport 12 million people. Well, Mexico did."
Send us your thoughts to LouDobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." We thank you for being with us tonight. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" begins right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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