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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Showdown in Gaza; Hunt for Osama bin Laden; Troops on the Border

Aired June 30, 2006 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Israel steps up its military offensive against radical Islamists in Gaza. It's the biggest Israeli military operation in nearly a year. Our complete coverage begins now.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Friday, June 30th.

Sitting in for Lou Dobbs is Kitty Pilgrim.

PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.

Tonight, an escalating crisis over the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. Today, for the third straight day, Israeli aircraft bombarded suspected Palestinian positions in Gaza. Israeli troops and tanks are ready to launch an all-out offensive. The Palestinians today said the Israelis plan to overthrow the Hamas-led government.

John Vause reports from Gaza on the military showdown and what we know about the fate of the missing Israeli soldier. And Elaine Quijano reports on the president's determination to support Israel.

We turn to John Vause in Gaza first -- John.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, the first word which may confirm that the kidnapped Israeli soldier is still alive comes from state-run Israeli television, which has reported tonight that a Palestinian doctor has been to see Gilad Shalit, treated him for his wounds. No word on how serious those injuries may be, no word on his condition, only that he is still alive.

This, as Israel continues to hold off on a major ground offensive to give diplomats from Egypt more time to negotiate the release of the 19-year-old corporal. But Israeli artillery continues to fire hundreds of rounds again today, mostly in the north of Gaza. And the Israeli air force continues to carry out multiple airstrikes around the Gaza Strip, more than 30 in the past 24 hours. The most recent just a few moments ago in central Gaza, targeting what is believed to be an Hamas training ground.

But Hamas appears to be defiant. Thousands of protesters in Gaza taking to the streets after morning prayers. And from Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, defiant words warning that Israel is trying to topple his government and saying Israel will not succeed and that this military action is only complicating efforts to try and secure the release of the 19-year-old Israeli corporal -- Kitty. PILGRIM: Thanks very much, John Vause.

Now, the White House today declared that Hamas must return the kidnapped Israel soldier. The Bush administration has repeatedly said that Israel has the right to defend itself against acts of terrorism.

Elaine Quijano traveled with President Bush and the Japanese prime minister to Memphis, Tennessee, and she has our report -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Kitty, the Bush administration reiterated that message once again today. At the same time, though, officials with the Bush administration urging restraint on all sides.

Today, White House spokesman Tony Snow said that the U.S. is encouraged by the fact that the Israelis are standing down in northern Gaza and that there is talk by Hamas about repatriating the soldier.

Now, at the State Department, officials say the arrest of Palestinian cabinet members raises -- raised particular concerns, but they took pains not to go so far as to call Israel's actions a kidnapping. A spokesman today said it was important to remember that this situation was precipitated by a hostage-taker and the official said, Kitty, that the hostage-taking needs to end -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: Thanks very much.

Elaine Quijano.

Now, Japan is withdrawing its 600 troops from Iraq. Japan says its mission in Iraq is complete. About 20 transporters left a Japanese base in southern Iraq today, carrying trucks and armored vehicles. The Japanese troops took part in reconstruction work under British command and they were protected by the Australian army.

Insurgents have killed four more of our troops in Iraq, three soldiers and a Marine. 2,352 of our troops have been killed in Iraq, 18,696 of our troops have been wounded, and of those troops, 8,560 were seriously wounded.

Now, the military says it expects an increase in the number of insurgent attacks on our troops after the death of al Qaeda's leader in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. GEN. BILL CALDWELL, U.S. ARMY: What we did see, and we anticipate that, is a slight upturn in the attacks on us as a result of that, with some of his followers trying to show that they still had some resiliency and capability that existed here in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: But General bill Caldwell says the military has badly disrupted al Qaeda's organization in Iraq and has disabled its leadership.

The Army tonight is investigating new allegations that some U.S. soldiers may have murdered Iraqi civilians. Four Iraqi civilians were killed in their home in an incident near Baghdad in March. The Army began the investigations after two soldiers reported the incident to military counselors.

American troops in Afghanistan still have not found Osama bin Laden almost five years after September 11th. And today, Osama bin Laden released another audiotape.

David Ensor reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The tape on which Osama bin Laden praises al Qaeda's dead leader in Iraq is its fourth this year alone. Nearly five years after 9/11, he's still at it.

FORIA YOUNIS, FMR. FBI AGENT: I do think that's -- the million dollar question is why we haven't caught Osama bin Laden.

ENSOR: Former FBI counterterrorism agent Foria Younis says it is a good question. But remember how long it took to find the fugitive bomber Eric Rudolph right here in the United States?

YOUNIS: Even having a good idea of who he was and where he was, it was still many years before we caught him. So, in Pakistan, you can imagine multiplying those problems by 100 times, and that's how difficult it is.

ENSOR: Bob Grenier, who left the CIA three weeks go after serving as head of the counterterrorism effort there, says bin Laden has gone to ground in tough territory. And that's not just the terrain.

BOB GRENIER, FMR. CIA OFFICIAL: This is a fundamentally hostile area. It is populated by people who are very sympathetic to the Islamic extremists cause. They are very xenophobic. They are xenophobic toward people in the next valley, let alone, you know, people from the West or the representatives of the federal government in Pakistan.

ENSOR: And lately bin Laden's people have made it more difficult, still, putting tapes on the Internet instead of Arabic language TV.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I think these guys have wised up to the fact it's smarter just to do it through the jihadi Web sites. A, you don't get "censored" by Al-Jazeera, which they have complained about in the past. And B, it's much less amenable to detection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Grenier, the CIA man, says getting bin Laden requires more effort. Work very smart, he says, be persistent, and eventually someone's going to get lucky -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: David, what's the intelligence these days on where bin Laden is? In Afghanistan, in Pakistan? What is the best guess?

ENSOR: The best guess, Kitty, is that he's probably on the Pakistani side of the border in the tribal area up in the northeast. Very, very rough territory.

PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.

David Ensor.

Thanks, David.

Still to come, questions tonight about whether the National Guard is meeting its commitment to deploy troops to our southern border.

Also, the Bush administration steps up its efforts to sell its amnesty agenda for illegal aliens in this country.

And presidents and "The King." This is a story that goes back decades, and we'll have a special report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: Tonight, the Bush administration is beginning a new push for so-called comprehensive immigration reform. Meanwhile, the feasibility of one of its key border security proposals is in doubt.

Now, we have two reports tonight.

Peter Viles is on the deadline for deploying National Guard troops on our border with Mexico. And Lisa Sylvester on the latest efforts by the Bush White House to bolster support for so-called comprehensive immigration reform.

So we begin tonight with Peter Viles in Los Angeles -- Peter.

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, the question is, exactly how many of these National Guard troops are physically at the border tonight? A simple question, but we were not able to get a clear answer today out of the National Guard.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VILES (voice over): For weeks now, the National Guard has been clear as a bell, saying it would have 2,500 troops along the Mexican border by tonight. This is the head of the guard on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT.

LT. GEN. STEVEN BLUM, NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU: We'll have 2,500 troops on the ground by the end of June.

VILES: Did he literally mean on the border? Well, again, the general was clear as a bell.

VILES: By the 30th of June, there will be 2,500 guardsmen on the border.

VILES: But now a slightly different story. Amid press reports indicating the Guard fell far short of that goal, the National Guard Bureau appears to have changed its goal, saying today, "The National Guard does have 2,500 Army and Air Guard members in the four border states supporting Operation Jump Start."

No mention of whether those troops are physically near the border. And the Guard would not say how many troops are in each border state or where they came from. The Guard did say recent flooding forced it to adjust its plan for border duty.

But when CNN asked Guard officials and state officials in the four border states, the number of troops serving came to less than 2,100. The Guard spokesman in Arizona told the AP, "The magical numbers coming out of Washington are not going to happen, definitely not by Friday."

The Minutemen volunteers say the Guard is not yet a presence on the border.

CHRIS SIMCOX, CO-FOUNDER, MINUTEMAN PROJECT: We've only seen the National Guard in the Yuma area. We've not seen them anywhere else from Texas to California. It's business as usual. Again, the border is as porous as ever. The National Guard is not taking a lead role.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: There have been some new commitments in the past 48 hours from governors in the southeast to send troops to the southern border. Governors of Kentucky, Virginia and North Carolina pledging a combined 1,300 troops to send to the southwest border -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: Peter, the next deadline is 6,000 troops on the border by August. How likely is it that the National Guard will make that deadline?

VILES: Well, the Guard says they still plan to meet that deadline, 6,000 troops by August, but it's clear they are still lining up these troops. These announcements from Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, just came in the past 48 hours, so they are still getting commitments from governors. So they may get that 6,000, but I don't think they know exactly where the troops are coming from tonight.

PILGRIM: Thanks very much.

Peter Viles.

Thanks, Pete.

Well, in Washington today, the White House sent Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez to sell its so-called comprehensive reform plan. And his audience was an influential group of conservative lawyers.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez is a Cuban immigrant. In a speech before the Federalist Society, he said his most cherished material possession is his U.S. passport.

Gutierrez has emerged as the Bush administration's point man on immigration reform, sticking to the talking points.

CARLOS GUTIERREZ, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Our reality is we have jobs that American citizens aren't willing to take or aren't available to do.

SYLVESTER: The administration is trying to breathe new life into a Senate immigration comprehensive bill that has stalled. The White House released a fresh poll that claims 70 percent of GOP voters support a guest worker program and a path to citizenship for illegal aliens. But House Republicans were quick to slap those poll results down.

REP. ED ROYCE (R), CALIFORNIA: We know for a fact that there's been a role played in the way that they have phrased those questions. I know that as a fact. And that in earlier polls, Zogby polls and others, by a 2-1 margin, the American public favored the House approach over the Senate approach.

SYLVESTER: House lawmakers backed tough border enforcement without amnesty. They say the momentum is on their side.

The House has started hearings that could further galvanize opposition to a guest worker amnesty plan. That's putting pressure on the White House to find a middle ground.

One option? To do it in stages. Stiffen illegal immigration laws first, and then later implement a worker plan. But so far, at least publicly, the Bush administration is not budging.

GUTIERREZ: The important thing is that we need comprehensive reform, which means border security. We need to have a temporary worker's permit. We need to recognize that the extremes aren't going to get us anywhere.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: And this week, Judiciary chairman Arlen Specter signaled that he would consider a compromise that focused on enforcement first. But the sticking is point is how that legislation would be crafted. Some House lawmakers argue, if it includes any path to citizenship or amnesty, that that is an automatic deal breaker -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: Now, it's a big week next week, Lisa. What can we expect from the immigration hearings next week?

SYLVESTER: Well, there's going to be a big rollout of hearings. First, in San Diego, you have Congressman Ed Royce. He is going to be chairing a hearing that's largely going to be taking a look at this whole concept of a border fence.

And not to be outdone, senators then said, OK, well, we want to have our own hearings on this. So Senator Specter is holding a hearing in Philadelphia on July 5th. And that should be a very interesting hearing. We're hearing that there will also be protesters there, as well -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: And I'm sure we'll follow every minute of it.

Thanks very much.

Lisa Sylvester.

Well, that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Which of the following do you believe should be the first step in any immigration reform, border security, employer sanctions, amnesty?

Cast your vote at loudobbs.com, and we'll bring you the results later in the broadcast.

Up next, the president, the prime minister, and "The King." President Bush and Prime Minister Koizumi visit Graceland. A report on Elvis' long-term relationships with presidents ahead.

And then, President Bush's wartime powers checked by the Supreme Court. What does that mean for the rest of his executive powers and his clout with Congress? Three of the nation's top political analysts will join me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: President Bush today traded the Oval Office for Elvis' jungle room. The president and Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi toured Graceland, including the famous jungle rooming at Elvis Presley's Memphis mansion.

Now, the two leaders have a close personal friendship, and the prime minister is a longtime Elvis fan. But Prime Minister Koizumi is not the first government leader to have an affinity with Elvis.

Bill Schneider reports -- Bill.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Kitty, the president and the prime minister pay their respects to "The King," but "The King" has seen it all before.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice over): Presidents and Elvis, it's an old story. Bill Clinton channeled Elvis in the 1992 campaign. .

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (SINGING): You know I can't be found.

That's all I can do.

SCHNEIDER: Elvis, the first rock star...

ELVIS PRESLEY, SINGER (SINGING): You could die

SCHNEIDER: ... Clinton the first rock star president. Two bad boys who tried to do good.

Then there was the day in December 1970, when Elvis visited the Nixon White House unannounced.

Bud Krogh was the aide on duty.

BUD KROGH, FMR. NIXON AIDE: When Elvis came to the White House, it was just a total surprise. No one knew it was going to happen.

SCHNEIDER: What did Elvis want? He brought with him a handwritten letter to President Nixon. "The drug culture, the hippie elements, the SDS, Black Panthers, et cetera, do not consider me as their enemy... I can and will do more good if I were made a federal agent at large."

KROGH: What Elvis asked for was a badge from the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, and I remember the president looking, and he says, "Well, Bud, can we get him a badge?" And I said, "Yes, sir, Mr. President. If you want to give him a badge, we can do it."

SCHNEIDER: Followed by a very unlikely and unphotographed scene.

KROGH: Well, when Elvis heard that, he stepped across. He was just about three or four feet away from the president, he grabbed him, gave hip a big hug. And, you know, president-hugging was not the norm in that White House.

SCHNEIDER: Elvis' badge is on display at Graceland. Prime Minister Koizumi, a huge Elvis fan who has put out an album of his famous Elvis songs, could see it there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: The most remarkable thing about Elvis' visit to the White House? It was kept secret for more than a year, until Jack Anderson revealed the story in a newspaper column.

President Bush may want to find out a little more about how they did that -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: Yes. Well, it's front-page news today.

Thanks very much, Bill.

SCHNEIDER: Sure.

PILGRIM: Let's take a look at some of your e-mails now. We love doing this.

Judy in Texas, "On the battle of illegal immigration, it's amazing that anyone wants to give illegals amnesty. Why shouldn't they go through the process for citizenship like everyone else?"

John in Texas writes, "The best way to stop illegal immigration is to stop employers from hiring them in the first place. If there are no jobs here for them, there will be no reason for them to cross our borders."

And Ray in New Jersey writes, "I can't understand why Congress can't solve border security and illegal immigration at the same time instead of treating them as two separate subjects. I mean, it's not like asking them to chew gum and walk at the same time. Or is it?"

And Theresa in Georgia in writes, "You know, with the flooding in Washington shutting down much of the government, global warming doesn't seem so bad after all."

And Vernetta in California writes, "What is Congress doing except wasting more of our hard-earned tax dollars? I'm glad they're on vacation and I hope they stay there as they seem to be permanently out to lunch anyway."

Angel in Florida, "'The New York Times' has not put our country in danger. It's the free trade agreements, the lack of border security, and the selling of our country to the highest bidder that is placing the country in danger."

Send us your thoughts, loudobbs.com. We'll have more of your e- mails coming up.

And also coming up, floodwaters are receding across the Northeast after three days of flooding. We'll have the very latest on the cleanup.

And the Supreme Court blocks President Bush's expansive war powers. Three top political analysts examine the ruling and its impact.

And the countdown is on for the Space Shuttle Discovery liftoff, scheduled for tomorrow afternoon. We have a report from the Kennedy Space Center.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: Coming up, we have newsmakers. Three of the nation's top political analysts will be here. But first, let's take a look at some headlines.

Now, floodwaters are receding throughout the Northeast. Three days of heavy flooding left 18 people dead. Thirty-four counties in Pennsylvania have been declared a federal disaster area. Officials are still concerned that debris in the Delaware River is threatening bridges. Now, beginning tomorrow, students and parents who take out new loans to pay for college will be paying higher interest rates. Students will pay 6.8 percent interest. That's up from 5.3 percent. And parents will pay 8.5 percent.

The Space Shuttle Discovery is scheduled to lift off from the Kennedy Space Center tomorrow afternoon, and NASA's chief is overruling engineers who want to delay the launch. Engineers fear insulation from Discovery's external fuel tank could break off and damage the spacecraft.

Now, Miles O'Brien is covering the preparations for tomorrow's launch at the Kennedy Space Center and joins us now -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Kate -- excuse me, not Kate. Kitty, thank you very much.

This is probably the most tense, contentious countdown that I can recall covering of a space shuttle, as engineers continue a debate over the safety of the space shuttle, now three and a half years after Space Shuttle Columbia.

Take a look at some live pictures, launch pad 39B. We're inside 24 hours now to the slated launch. Weather is the big concern right now. No technical issues.

That structure you see enveloping the space shuttle will be moved back, the rotating service structure very shortly, and we'll get a good look at Discovery in just a little bit.

Let's go back to Columbia three and a half years ago. You remember what happened then.

A piece of foam about a pound and a half in weight, about the size of a briefcase, fell off of the big external fuel tank as Columbia rocketed toward space. It hit the left side of the wing, the leading edge of the wing, breached the heat shield, and it was a fatal breach. Sixteen days later, as it came in, it disintegrated, killing the crew of seven.

Now, NASA spent a tremendous amount of money, upwards of $1 billion and two and a half years trying to fix that problem, and here's what happened one year ago this time. The same space shuttle as we have on the pad today, Discovery. And as it rocketed towards space, another big piece of foam fell off another part of the tank.

There you see it highlighted. In this case, Kitty, it did not hit the shuttle, fortunately. But they went back to the drawing board, took off additional pieces of foam and did a lot more work about what the implications would be if other small pieces of foam were to come off.

Take a look at some of these high-speed tests that they did with smaller pieces of foam. As it turns out, this foam, which they thought was relatively harmless, can cause damage, even with much smaller pieces falling off. So, there is concern that some of this foam on this tank could fall off and cause some damage, as you see right there, to the Space Shuttle Discovery. Engineers have been quibbling over a specific type of foam called ice frost ramps that remain on the tank. No time to design them, redesign them, according to the NASA administrator.

Let's listen to what he had to say a minute ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL GRIFFIN, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: I worry that we spend so much time worrying about foam that we won't worry about other things which could get us. We've tried to address them all. Foam is a concern, but I very strongly feel that we are not risking crew for foam in this case or I wouldn't feel comfortable launching.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: But just to give you a sense of the kinds of problems they have to deal with that you might not expect, birds. This part of the world, we're in the middle of a wildlife refuge. And there are a lot of vultures, turkey buzzards that fly around here.

Look at this shot three seconds after the launch of Space Shuttle Discovery last year. Right at the top, boom, it hit a bird, killed a bird, a couple others were immolated.

This is another debris concern. These birds weigh upwards of six pounds, and this is something that had not really occurred to NASA engineers as a real risk to flight.

Well, now they have that in their category of concerns. They have a special radar installed, Kitty, that will be looking for flocks of birds. And if they see a big flock that's headed toward the space shuttle, they will hold the launch -- the countdown and wait until those birds disperse.

So, it just goes to show you, it's the most complex machine ever built, and there are a lot of factors to consider. So we'll be holding our breath tomorrow as we cover this launch, slated now for 3:49 p.m. Eastern Time -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: Miles, really fascinating pictures. What does the weather look like for the launch tomorrow? Does it look good?

O'BRIEN: A little bit dicey. It's summer, it's the afternoon, 3:49 P.M. is about the peak of when you see the thunderstorm buildups here in Florida. Sixty four percent chance that the weather will delay the launch. Having said that, today, at about the time of launch, I took note of the weather, it was probably go for launch, as it was yesterday. We're told that of the three days coming up ahead of us, tomorrow is going to be the best day for weather. So we're hoping for the best here, Kitty.

PILGRIM: All right, thank you very much, Miles O'Brien. Thanks, Miles. And we will have complete coverage of tomorrow's launch of Discovery, countdown to liftoff beginning 7:00 Eastern, tomorrow morning. Miles, of course will be with us, and be sure to join us for special live coverage of the launch with him, beginning at 3:00 p.m. Eastern.

Well, congress will be off for its fourth of July holiday next week, but House Republicans will still be busy. They are starting a round of public hearings to highlight what they call problems with the Senate's immigration reform legislation. Senate Republicans, for their part, plan to hold hearings on why they say their plan makes sense. Andrea Koppel reports from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a subtle shift in message.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Our borders are broken. They must be enforced.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Nobody wants to let more people in without having a border secure.

KOPPEL: One by one, this week, key Senate Republicans, who have insisted comprehensive immigration reform must include a guest-worker program and earned path to citizenship for millions of illegal immigrants, signaled a willingness to compromise with the House.

SPECTER: We're prepared to commit to secure borders, but we've got to have a timetable on the rest of it as well.

KOPPEL: At the heart of this idea, to ensure the border is enforced first, the main House demand, before eventually triggering a guest-worker program and rights to citizenship. Arizona Republican John McCain said it is the most realistic approach.

MCCAIN: So tomorrow we started on setting up a temporary guest- worker program. It will take a long time for us to set it up, have it functioning, and working. Same thing with the path to legalization. I mean, you just don't have it happen overnight.

KOPPEL: So far House Republican leaders, strongly opposed to making illegal immigrants citizens, what they call amnesty, had said they are open to discussion.

REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), HOUSE SPEAKER: I think they are probably has to be some metric there, so what probably the Senator McCain's talking about has some substance. Some of our own members are floating ideas similar to that.

KOPPEL: But even as they consider compromise, the House and Senate will kick off a series of possibly divisive hearings next week around the country to highlight their differences.

(on camera): A senior administration official involved in trying to work out a deal between Republicans in the House and the Senate told CNN, these discussions are just starting. To say there is a single plan is incorrect. Nevertheless, the White House is encouraged that at least these two sides are attempting to reach a compromise. Andrea Koppel, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Well, we'll get to immigration in a minute. Joining me now, three of the nation's leading political analysts, Ed Rollins, former White House political director under President Reagan, Michael Goodwin of the "New York Daily News" and senior political analyst Bill Schneider joins us. Thank you, gentlemen. It's always nice to kick things around at the end of the week with you.

One of the biggest things was the Supreme Court decision, the Guantanamo decision. The way some tell it, it's a major blow to the Bush administration. But, here's what the president had to say, and let's start with that and then we'll go from there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will conform to the Supreme Court. We will analyze the decision. To the extent that the congress is given any latitude to develop a way forward using military tribunals, we will work with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: OK, so the whole issue of military tribunals, what's your take on this?

MICHAEL GOODWIN, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": I don't think it's a bad decision. I think the president was clearly thwarted in what he want to do with the 40 or 80, depending on who's talking, the worst of the worst, at Gitmo. But I do think that the court was right. That at some point this is not an emergency now. We've got to play by our American rules and our American values. I think the key thing here is will Congress help the president set up the tribunals and I think they should. I think the tribunals are a good idea. The court said go ahead, just get Congress to approve it. So that's the challenge now, and I hope Congress will give him that authority.

PILGRIM: And Congress has take an step back in this a bit and now really the ball is in their court, isn't it?

GOODWIN: Right, I mean I think Congress in many ways has wanted to sit back and second and third guess the president in the elements of the war on terror. He's kept them out of the loop and he's pushed his own executive powers, but clearly I think it is time now, almost five years into the war on terror, that Congress get more involved in some of these details and pitch in and take some responsibility for fighting this war.

PILGRIM: As Congress debates it, there's several options. Let's get Bill Schneider on this. Bill, what are your thoughts? BILL SCHNEIDER, SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: My thought is the Congress is very unhappy with the Bush administration. It's a Republican Congress, of course they'll cooperate, but they have been very unhappy to be out of the loop. They feel as if they've been disregarded. This president's style of governing throughout has been to assert executive authority. Certainly Dick Cheney has argued for that.

He's felt for decades, that ever since Watergate, the authority of the president has been diminished and he's used every opportunity, with the president, to reassert the strength of the executive. What the Supreme Court said is, you can't do that. We have a system of balances and separation of powers in this country. You have to consult with Congress in order to even run the war on terror.

PILGRIM: Ed?

ED ROLLINS, FMR. W.H. POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I think it gives the president a tremendous opportunity to basically go to the Congress, when he still controls it by his party, and lay out what it is that he needs and make his case, and then the Congress obviously give him, which I assume they will. This is a long-term problem. Terrorism is not going to go away, and Republicans aren't always going to have the White House or the Congress. And I think it's very, very important that we, as Americans, have something where there's not the conflict that has been there, and I think the court has given the president a tremendous opportunity to do this.

PILGRIM: Some of the human rights groups have come out with the courts martial option, they tend to favor that, some of them, anyway. What are your view of all the options that we have, Michael?

GOODWIN: Well, I do think the tribunals are a fair way to go. We're not talking about everybody in Guantanamo. We're talking about every P.O.W, or anyone captured in any battle. We are talking about selected people that the government says committed war crimes. And I think the military tribunals have worked in the past, such as in Nazi Germany. I think there's no reason for a select group of captured men, that the tribunal should work. But as Ed says, the key is Congress now has to join in this, and I think both parties, not just Republicans, but Democrats, too. Because I think that's the test here. Will both parties step up to the plate on this and help the president fight the war on terror, or will they just second and third guess?

PILGRIM: Bill?

SCHNEIDER: Well, the interesting thing about the court's decision is that they said the president's actions were incompatible with the Geneva Conventions, typically the third Geneva Convention. That's important, because what they said is the president has to abide, not just by the uniform code of military justice, but also by those international conventions.

PILGRIM: One of the options is to use the U.S. court system. What do you think of that, Ed? ROLLINS: I think we'd have great difficulty doing that. I think we certainly have to give these people every right to be charged and defend themselves, but I think the judicial system in this country is bogged down, you know, you still have a right to a jury and to a certain extent, some of these things are very complicated. So, I think, if you could do the tribunals under the international auspices of the Geneva Conference and what Congress decides, you'd be way better off.

PILGRIM: All right, let's switch topics and talk about the "New York Times" and the other newspapers this week. Under some, being criticized by the Bush administration, for unveiling a secret program. Let's listen to what the president had to say about the "New York Times" first.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The disclosure of this program is disgraceful. We're at war with a bunch of people who want to hurt the United States of America. And for people to leak that program and for a newspaper to publish it does great harm to the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Now, this was an enormously heated debate in press circles this week. The what are your views?

GOODWIN: Well, I think obviously, the calls to prosecute the "New York Times" are way off base. I think legally the Times is on very solid footing. The issue is should they have printed the article, given the administration's request. And when you examine what the Times' logic was in printing it, I have my doubts. And I think those doubts are really only deepening. Because every time the Times defends itself, now the latest defense is that it really isn't that important, because the administration has talked many times about terrorism financing.

Well, if it wasn't that important, why did you put it on page one? If it wasn't that important, why didn't you hold it at their request and why not give them the benefit of the doubt? And my problem with the Times, and I'm an alumni of the Times. Actually, I love the "New York Times" in many ways. But I think they have become so anti-Bush in their coverage and in their columns, that they've become almost a partisan player and now I think what you see is the Republicans running against the "New York Times" for political advantage.

PILGRIM: The whole thing is the right to publish it, versus should they have published it. Bill?

SCHNEIDER: Well, I think the president clearly thinks he has the political advantage here in going after the press, particularly the "New York Times," a very old theme among conservatives. A lot of Americans read those stories and they wondered what exactly was the public interest in knowing this? They don't feel like this was an important secret to have divulged. It wasn't anything that affected most ordinary Americans and they tend to, they are probably inclined to support the president on this, that these articles didn't have to be published in the public interest.

ROLLINS: You know the Times needs to do a lot of cleaning up. It's a paper that basically was misused by the administration, in the early days when Judith Miller was publishing all these stories about weapons of mass destruction that were coming right out of the Pentagon, and I think to a certain extent, you know, as Michael said, they certainly have the right to publish.

That's been proven in the Pentagon papers and everything else, but sooner or later you have to take some responsibility, and I think to a certain extent I don't feel as a public that I need to know, unless there really was a violation of my rights and no one has certainly indicated that has occurred.

PILGRIM: Let's move to our favorite topics which is the border and the broken border. The National Guard was supposed to have 2,500 National Guard troops on the border. They have -- the Associated Press says the Guard strength is only about 1,000. Is this yet another lax demonstration or what?

GOODWIN: Well, I mean, it seems to me that Bush never really cared about enforcement. And I don't think he still cares. Now, he may have to care in order to get any kind of a bill out of Congress. But, I think that to hear the Senate, as you did in an earlier report, to hear the senators talking about enforcement, does suggest there is movement there.

And I believed all along that you could have a kind of two-step process where could you have enforcement first, a time lag of a year, two years, even Hillary Clinton told me she supported that, and then you would have the rest of it begin to kick in. So to hear McCain talk that way, that could be the way this thing eventually gets worked out.

PILGRIM: You know, it is a bit of astonishing to have the American public so heated up about this issue and to have this kind of demonstration, you know, to set a goal and then not meet it -- Bill.

SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, what seems to be happening is the senators are moving toward the House position. much more than the House is moving towards the Senate. That's because the people who are angriest and most intense about this are those who agree with the House.

They are the ones who are going to be heard at these hearings along the border because they are the ones who intend to vote on this issue. It means more to them, and you are seeing the Senate move in the direction of the House. That's most of the motion on this.

ROLLINS: This is important. There is a word -- there's a magic word, that every time it gets thrown out basically gets people's back up, and that's amnesty. So securing the borders is very important and I think where this National Guard issue failed is, it wasn't thought through. It's a short-term solution.

We need long-term solutions and I think if we need 6,000 men on the borders to guard them, we ought to basically go, as we did with TSA or what have you, and hire them. Taking National Guardsmen away from, like, the Northeast where we have floods is not a good solution and not a long-term solution.

PILGRIM: And we're having the public hearings in some cities next week. Will that have any impact on immigration, do you believe?

ROLLINS: I doubt it very much. Certainly Laredo and Philadelphia are going to have two different debates, and San Diego -- and I can tell you what the debate in San Diego will be, as a Californian.

PILGRIM: All right. We won't characterize those cities quite yet tonight.

Thanks very much for joining us, gentlemen. Ed Rollins, Michael Goodwin and Bill Schneider, thank you.

SCHNEIDER: Sure.

PILGRIM: Coming up, does Detroit deliberately refuse to innovate? Well, that's what a new documentary asks. "Who Killed the Electric Car"? The filmmaker joins us.

Also, "Heroes" -- we'll meet an Air Force sergeant whose special skills and bravery in a key battle in Iraq earned him a Silver Star. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: Well, the Ford Motor Company is canceling its plans to boost production of hybrid vehicles. Ford promised last fall to sell 250,000 hybrids a year, and now Ford says it will focus on vehicles that run on alternative fuels such as ethanol instead. Now, Detroit has lagged far behind Japanese automakers in hybrid vehicles. This is the not first time American automakers have failed, or some say refuse, to invest in innovation.

A new documentary accuses Detroit of deliberately blocking production of pollution-free cars and the film asks the question, "Who Killed the Electric Car"?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What killed the electric vehicle, very simply, I think, is lack of corporate wisdom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my opinion, it's big oil that killed the electric car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allen Lloyd killed the electric car program. I was there when he did it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The California Air Resources Board killed the electric car under huge pressure from the auto companies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were an accessory to the murder, but the murder was committed by the General Motors Company.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Chris Paine, the director of the film "Who Killed the Electric Car" joins me now from Los Angeles.

And, Chris, thank you very much for being with us.

CHRIS PAINE, "WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR": Thank you, Kitty.

PILGRIM: You know, Chris, you wanted major investigative news programs to do this story, and they didn't. What was it that you think the American public needs to know?

PAINE: Well, I think most people didn't even know there were electric cars, which is kind of crazy, because these cars were developed here in the United States, and they put them on the roads in California, like thousands of them, thanks to a California law, which they passed, saying that if you wanted to sell cars in California, some of those cars had to be electric.

And I got one of those cars, and I was amazed at how good the car was. And when they took the cars off the road five years later and began destroying them, I thought, well, this is a story every American probably wants to know.

PILGRIM: Let's -- you know, one of the possible killers, or you point out that in your view one of the possible killers of electric cars is oil companies and we have a clip from a prominent engineer. Let's listen to that for a second.

PAINE: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's still roughly a trillion barrels worth of oil in the earth's crust, and if you figure that the average price of that subsequent oil will be $100 a barrel, that's $100 trillion worth of business yet to be done. However, at some point when an alternative is good enough, people will snap over, and that's what the oil companies fear the most.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Now, some can spin this into a conspiracy theory. Others can say, look, it's just market forces. It's cheap and it's plentiful at this point, oil. Why did you want to bring this out, this point?

PAINE: Well, you know, the fact is, is that all of the United States is on oil for pushing cars around, which is just crazy, because we have plenty of domestic electricity to do it. And if you look at the marketplace today, there are no plug-in versions of cars you can drive, and this is insane, because oil price are going up.

And we have the technology to put battery-powered electric cars on. They might not be for everybody, but there should below an option in the marketplace. And we took on the oil industry in the film because they took on the electric cars. They said, we shouldn't build charging stations, and they really got in the way of this innovation.

PILGRIM: Fascinating stuff. Let's also look at the role of government in your film, and the film addresses it extensively. It says that the government really had a role in developing alternative fuel cars and then basically failed to put them out for the American public. And we have another clip from a leading expert on the issue on the environment. And let's listen to that clip.

PAINE: Sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For eight, nine years, we spent about $1 billion of the taxpayers' money to develop hybrid vehicles and ironically, the U.S. car companies didn't put any hybrids on the road and, the fact, the minute George Bush got elected president, the U.S. car companies walked away from hybrids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Is this a failure of government, Chris?

PAINE: Well, I really think it is, you know. The government did something good in terms of getting carmakers to put electric cars on the road and hybrids and so forth, but they backed down. They backed down because there was so much pressure on them. In California, the federal government, the Bush administration, sued California, said you cannot dictate to have changes to miles per gallon cars on the road, so effectively killing the car program.

And the deal is, is that government can make a difference, and especially when you have cars made in America using domestic U.S. energy, let's put those cars on the road and give the car industry and the oil industry a little push from the government to make it happen.

PILGRIM: You know what strikes me about this whole thing is, an electric car is basically a zero-emissions car. How soon do you think we might see this? This is very, very needed.

PAINE: Well, I got my electric car in 1997. And the EV-1 that GM did was an amazing car. It could go 180 miles an hour if you took the regulator off it. Really, really fast. And then you just plug it in your garage at home.

I think that as Americans sit back and start importing more and more of these cars from Japan, the carmakers will understand that electric hybrids can make them a lot of money. I just wish we didn't have to wait.

PILGRIM: Well, I -- we don't recommend you take the regulator off your car and go 180 miles an hour, but we certainly applaud you taking it off this movie and we hope it does extremely well.

Thanks very much for joining us, Chris Paine.

PAINE: I hope people get to see the film. Thank you.

PILGRIM: OK.

Still more to come, more of your thoughts on illegal immigration and jobs Americans won't do. Then, "Heroes," our weekly tribute to the men and women in uniform. And tonight, a Silver Star recipient who did one of the most dangerous jobs in Iraq. We'll have his story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: Now, "Heroes," our weekly tribute to our men and women in uniform. And tonight, we introduce you to Air Force Technical Sergeant Travis Crosby. Sergeant Crosby has particular skills at coordinating Army forces on the ground with air power in the skies, and those skills helped earn him one of the military's highest honors. Bill Tucker has his story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): April 1st, 2003. Massive sandstorms finally let up across Iraq. The Air Force Technical Sergeant Travis Crosby, traveling with the Army's 3rd Battalion, 69th Armored Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division were given their orders. Secure the main bridge crossing the Euphrates that leads to Baghdad.

TECH. SGT. TRAVIS CROSBY, U.S. AIR FORCE: That was the bridge that the U.S. Army had to cross over. Well, the Predator spotted people wiring the bridge for -- with explosives. We actually put engineers in the water in boats. They went underneath with clippers and cut the wires to the explosives. So, of course they were getting shot at the whole time they were doing this. I'm controlling A-10s and talking to the helicopters who are both attacking targets from the air. We were attacking them with small arms, just the same as they were doing us.

TUCKER: Twenty-eight-year-old Sergeant Crosby, part of the Air Force's Tactical Air Control Party, a unique 800-person group that facilitates communication between the Army on the ground and the Air Force in the sky.

CROSBY: There is only, you know, a few select people that are that go-between, and that's what we do. We're on the ground with the Army.

TUCKER: The fighting was so intense that at times Sergeant Crosby had to bypass the control unit he was supposed to communicate through and give directions directly to the airmen above.

CROSBY: We could see them, and, you know, that's your angels above you. TUCKER: The battle lasted about 10 minutes. But as the Army and the Air Force continued its approach on Baghdad...

CROSBY: Basically, we drove into another small ambush, where these guys were hiding in a ditch.

TUCKER: Backup gave Sergeant Crosby a split second to get into position with a face-to-face combat with the enemy, another successful mission.

CROSBY: From the time we left Karbala, April 1st, that night, until the time we got to Saddam's airport and finished, you know, taking it down, taking it over and everything, it was a total of 72 hours straight that if you got more than an hour's sleep or more than an hour's break, you were the lucky one.

TUCKER: Those missions were honored this week when the secretary of the Air Force made a special presentation to Sergeant Crosby, honoring him with the Silver Star.

Bill Tucker, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: We wish him luck.

Still ahead, your thoughts on the Bush administration, illegal immigration, and a great deal more. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: Here are the results of tonight's poll: 74 percent of you say the first step in any immigration reform plan should be border security.

Let's take a look at some more of your thoughts.

Shirley in Maryland writes: "Isn't it ironic that working on military bases is included in Bush's perception of jobs Americans won't do?"

Jim and Beth write: "We haven't seen the ballot from Mexico's running candidates. I wonder if George W. has a slot on it. He's done more for them in this country than their current president ever did for them."

And Ron in Florida says: "Isn't the real danger to our security coming from a federal government that cannot keep secrets or enforce its own laws?"

Richard in Arkansas writes, "I see what they're working on -- more trade deals again. Can we make a trade deal for a new government?"

Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. And each of you whose e- mail is read on this broadcast will receive a copy of Lou's book, "Exporting America."

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us Monday. For all of us here, good night from New York. Have a great weekend. "THE SITUATION ROOM" starts with John King.

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