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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Fragile Mideast Truce; Iranian, Syrian Leaders Give Speeches Praising Hezbollah; Bush: World Still Not Safe From Terrorism; Census Bureau Reports on Immigration Explosion
Aired August 15, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Israeli troops are withdrawing from southern Lebanon. And Lebanese troops are preparing to move in. But it could take months for 15,000 U.N. troops to arrive in the region.
We'll have special reports tonight from Israel and Lebanon.
And the Iranian and Syrian presidents today declared Hezbollah has defeated both Israel and the United States.
We'll have an exclusive report from Tehran.
And we'll examine U.S. military strategy after the Israeli- Hezbollah war and ask whether it is time for a complete overhaul of the leadership of the U.S. military.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Tuesday, August 15th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
Good evening, everybody.
Israeli troops today began withdrawal from southern Lebanon one day after the beginning of a cease-fire with Hezbollah. The cease- fire tonight continues to hold, despite occasional violation by Hezbollah terrorists and Israeli response.
Lebanese troops will start to replace Israeli troops in southern Lebanon tonight. The United Nations says 3,500 peacekeepers will be in the area within the next two weeks, but it could take months for the entire U.N. force to be in place. And it seems highly unlikely that either the Lebanese army or the United Nations will make any attempt to disarm Hezbollah.
Jim Clancy reports from Beirut on the plans to deploy the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon.
Fionnuala Sweeney reports from northern Israel on the progress of the Israeli withdrawal.
And Aneesh Raman tonight reports from Iran on Iranian and Syrian claims that Hezbollah has won what they call a great victory.
We turn first to Jim Clancy in Beirut -- Jim. JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Twenty-four hours from right now the Lebanese army should be rolling out of Beirut toward the Litani River, just south of Tyre. That is the top, the northern end of that buffer zone that they are to patrol in conjunction with the United Nations troops.
Now, we understand that three brigades are going to begin at the Litani River, and from there they will start to deploy southward. But they are also waiting for the United Nations troops to deploy first.
Meantime, more of the same all across Lebanon, with tens of thousands of people trying to get home around bombed-out bridges and roadways that are completely impassable. Some people had to wade through water in order to get where they were going this day.
The government, too, finally getting into the reconstruction act. The army engineers could be seen repairing bridges today. Also, they were making some repairs at Beirut International Airport, making some temporary fill-ins, if you will, on those runways that were cratered by Israeli bombs at the beginning of the conflict.
Elsewhere in the southern suburbs, Hassan Nasrallah's Hezbollah volunteers out in force this day with maps, checking out. Hezbollah is promising everything and then some.
It says it not only will replace the homes that have been destroyed, Lou, it says it's going to build better ones. Where is the money coming from? Nobody's saying, but it's about $1 billion. And most bets here are that it's coming from Tehran.
Back to you.
DOBBS: Jim, the obvious question amongst the population of Beirut as you talk with them, is there a sense that this is a Hezbollah victory or that Lebanon has paid a high price?
CLANCY: It depends on who you talk to. Go to the southern suburbs today, one man telling us, "I believe everything Hassan Nasrallah says. He promised he's going to come by today, and he did come by. And I'm sure he's going to repair my shop and give me a new home."
You go to some of the other areas and they believe he's brought a disaster on Lebanon. And they know well that he's leaving them to pay the biggest price tag of all, that's the lost investment, that's the lost income from the tourism trade, that is all of the lost infrastructure that the government and ultimately the taxpayers of Lebanon are going to have to pony up -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jim, thank you very much.
Jim Clancy from Beirut.
Thousands of Israeli troops have begun withdrawal from southern Lebanon tonight. The Israeli army says the withdrawal will be complete within the next 10 days. Tonight Israel said its troops killed the commander of Hezbollah's special forces just before the cease-fire went into effect.
Fionnuala Sweeney reports from northern Israel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Driving home, Israeli troops continue their pullout from southern Lebanon. The IDF are not saying how many will stay behind, but Israeli media reports suggest, by the end of the week, the army will have redeployed to a narrow security zone inside Lebanon.
CAPTAIN DAN GORDON, SPOKESPERSON, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES: The redeployment is going along smoothly, under the conditions of the cease-fire agreement. Israeli commanders are talking to their parallel commanders in the vastly expanded UNIFIL force. And, so far, the cease-fire is holding.
SWEENEY: The cease-fire may still be under probation. But, in the meantime, Israeli soldiers are content to be out of Lebanon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I'm not sure the war is over. But I am happy to be out right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Israel won the war, according to the agreement, again. If the agreement will -- going to be fulfilled, Israel won the war. If it's not going to be fulfilled, and Hezbollah were going to stay in the same places, then it -- then Israel didn't won the war.
SWEENEY: Debate rages within the country about how much Israel gained or lost in this war -- and, as the tanks are loaded up for the return journey to their barracks, varying opinions also among the soldiers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of Lebanon is kind of ruined. You know, they have nothing. We're still here. We're good.
GORDON: We know that in this particular campaign, we didn't cure the cancer that is Hezbollah, but we've put it into remission.
SWEENEY: A view shared by the Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who targeted Hezbollah for shooting at Israeli soldiers leaving Lebanon early Tuesday.
TZIPI LIVNI, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: It's in violation of the Security Council resolution. It's not only the spirit, it's the wording of the resolution. The resolution is binding, and it is clearly said that the meaning of cessation of hostility is full cessation of hostility and Hezbollah has to stop immediately his attacks, not only on Israel, but also on Israeli soldiers.
SWEENEY: Israel demands now that the international community step in to shore up the U.N. resolution.
(on camera): Two days into this cease-fire and these Israeli reservists are packing up to go home. The question on everyone's minds though, is for how long?
Fionnuala Sweeney, CNN, Northern Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The French general in charge of the existing United Nations force in Lebanon today said it could take up to a year for the new peacekeeping force to reach full strength. The general said his first priority is to help Lebanese troops deploy to the area.
As many as 15,000 international troops are expected to go to southern Lebanon. France is likely to provide the largest contingent.
The Syrian and Iranian presidents today claimed Hezbollah won a major victory in its month-long war with Israel. The Iranian president declared Hezbollah stopped U.S. and British plans to dominate the Middle East. The Syrian president said U.S. policy in the Middle East has failed.
Aneesh Raman now has our exclusive report from the Iranian capital of Tehran -- Aneesh.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, good evening.
A message from the Syrian and Iranian presidents today, not just that Hezbollah had won, but that the United States had lost.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN (voice-over): If the victors of this war are the ones who proclaim it the loudest, then there's no doubt here Hezbollah has won. An equal certainty, Israel was not alone in defeat.
Impassioned cheers of "Death to America, Death to Britain!" echoed in the first speech by the Iranian president since a cease-fire took hold.
"America and England and the Zionist regime," he says, "with all the equipment, all the army they had, they faced a group of decent, devout young people, and those young people stood against them."
Hezbollah supporters celebrated throughout Lebanon this day. It was a costly fight for them, but for Hezbollah backers a chance to stand firm against the United States. Just hours before his Iranian counterpart, the Syrian president delivered his own remarks, his own message to President Bush.
PRES. BASHAR AL-ASSAD, SYRIA (through translator): This administration adopted the pre-emptive war. It contradicts the principle of peace. And six years after this administration, there's no peace. We are not expecting any peace.
RAMAN: Syria and Iran have grown closer by the day during the war. Now their leaders clearly think they are growing stronger as well. In response to talk from U.S. officials of a new Middle East, Ahmadinejad declared his own view, saying Middle East nations are wide awake, and they also envision a new Middle East, but one that is free of United States and British domination.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN: From the Iranian and Syrian presidents, no sign that the battle had come to an end. Instead, that Hezbollah and the broader resistance would go on and that peace in the region, now more than ever, seems out of reach.
Aneesh Raman, CNN, Tehran
DOBBS: And the United States today accused both Iran and Syria of shameful blustering by trying to claim victory in the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel. The State Department said the Iranian and Syrian leaders are trying to exploit a tragedy for their own selfish advantage. A top U.S. official said the outcome of the war is a setback for both Iran and Syria.
Later here we'll be examining whether the war between Israel and Hezbollah accomplished anything, whether it means it's time for a complete overhaul of the leadership of U.S. military as well.
And outrage tonight after a U.S. senator uses language that his election opponent says is nothing less than a racial slur. We'll have that live report from Capitol Hill.
And the number of immigrants in this country has exploded over the past five years. But incredibly, the federal government has no idea how many are illegal aliens.
We'll have a special report. And two analysts with opposite views on the immigration issue join us.
And new evidence tonight the prosecution of two Border Patrol agents could be harming this nation's efforts to secure our borders.
We'll have that exclusive report and a great deal more still ahead right here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: British police, investigating the plot to blow up transatlantic airliners, have arrested another suspected terrorist. The man was arrested in a police operation west of London. British police now have 24 people in custody in connection with that plot. Police in the United Kingdom can hold suspects for up to four weeks without charging them.
President Bush today said the London terrorist plot demonstrates that the United States could be fighting terrorists for years to come. President Bush made his remarks during a visit to the National Counterterrorism Center in Virginia. Both Republicans and Democrats trying now to win support for their national security policies ahead of the midterm elections.
Ed Henry has the report from the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, day two of what you might call President Bush's summer war of terror tour. The president talking a lot about the fact that the war on terror is alive and well, and yesterday dropping in at the Defense and State departments today, five hours at the National Counterterrorism tour.
With the war on terror a key issue in the midterm elections, the president trying to show he's engaged here, unlike last summer, when he took a political hit for appearing to have a slow reaction to Hurricane Katrina. So the president today quick to take credit for that terror plot being thwarted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States of America is engaged in a war against an extremist group of folks bound together by an ideology, willing to use terror to achieve their objectives. Our most solemn duty in the federal government is to protect the American people, and I will assure the American people that we're doing everything in our power to protect you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: The White House strategy is to stay on offense politically, as Vice President Cheney did today at a Republican fund- raiser in Phoenix, pivoting off of antiwar Democrat Ned Lamont's defeat of Connecticut senator Joe Lieberman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Dean Democrats have defeated Joe Lieberman. Their choice instead is a candidate whose explicit goal is to give up the fight against the terrorists in Iraq.
Never mind that Iraq is a fellow democracy, never mind that the Iraqi people and their elected leaders are counting on us. What these Democrats are pushing now is the very kind of retreat that has been tried in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, Democrats obviously rejecting that heading into the midterm elections, but the president's poll numbers on his handling of Iraq not as good as the American people's view of his handling on the broader issue of the war on terror. That's why we're seeing the vice president right there wrap this in a broader context, as we've seen the White House do before -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much.
Ed Henry reporting tonight from the White House. There is a rising controversy tonight over a comment made by Senator George Allen of Virginia. He made the comment last week to a campaign worker for Allen's Democratic opponent, James Webb. The volunteer worker says Allen insulted him with a racial slur. Senator Allen denies that, but the incident could be hurtful in November.
Andrea Koppel reports tonight from Washington -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Senator George Allen's off-the-cuff remarks were e-mailed to journalists by his Democratic opponent's campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: This fellow here, over here with the yellow shirt, Macaca, or whatever his name is, he's with my opponent. He's following us around everywhere. And it's just great.
KOPPEL (voice-over): The fellow Senator Allen was referring to is 20-year-old S.R. Sidarth, an American college student of Indian descent, and, at least for the summer, a volunteer with the James Webb campaign.
Armed with this digital handycam, Sidarth had been assigned to track Senator Allen all last week, a common practice among some campaigns. But Sidarth says it wasn't until Friday, during a speech near the Kentucky border, and with Sidarth's camera rolling, that Allen singled him out in the crowd, twice referring to him as "Macaca," the scientific grouping for a type of monkey, and, in some European countries, "Makak" is used as a racial slur.
ALLEN: So, welcome -- let's give a welcome to Macaca here.
(APPLAUSE)
ALLEN: Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia.
S.R. SIDARTH, VIRGINIA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE JAMES WEBB CAMPAIGN VOLUNTEER: I was disappointed that someone like a senator of the United States would use something completely offensive.
KOPPEL: Allen's communications director denies the senator was deliberately making a racially charged remark, telling CNN, the senator didn't know Sidarth's name. He said Allen staffers had nicknamed Sidarth "Mohawk" for the young man's short haircut, and perhaps the senator was confusing that nickname when he called him macaca.
In an interview with "The Washington Post," Allen apologized, saying he didn't know what the word macaca meant, and that he would -- quote -- "never want to demean Sidarth."
But Sidarth says, he had introduced himself to Allen earlier that week.
(CROSSTALK) KOPPEL (on camera): And you said, "My name is Sidarth"?
SIDARTH: Yes. And he shook my hand. He also is very good with names, legendarily, that he tries very hard to learn people's name when he's meeting them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: In Allen's written statement, he also said his remarks about a welcome to America and the real world of Virginia were aimed at his opponent, who Allen said had never been to that part of Virginia. Before Allen ran for governor in 1993, he was criticized by African-Americans for displaying a confederate flag. And Webb's campaign suggested this latest incident could be part of a pattern -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, it's certainly part of a campaign now.
Thank you very much, Andrea Koppel, from Washington.
Still ahead, we'll have the very latest on the Border Patrol agents who are facing 20 years in prison for doing their jobs and trying to protect our borders.
Also tonight, new census figures out on this nation's exploding immigration rates. And amazingly, the census report and your federal government can't figure out who's here legally and who isn't.
We'll have a special report on that ahead.
And the very latest on our democracy at risk, the upcoming court fight against electronic voting machines.
And three of the nation's very best military analysts join us on the lessons of the Israeli-Hezbollah war and the Iraq war and how the U.S. command staff is doing.
Stay with us for that and a great deal more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, those midterm elections now less than three months away, but across the country problems with e-voting machines could mean your vote won't be counted. Tonight, intensifying concern about what this is doing to the prospects for an effective and accurate nationwide election.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixty percent of the votes in the 2004 presidential election were cast or tallied by electronic voting machines. And that may hit 80 percent by this November's elections. Twenty-eight states with more than half the U.S. population have legislation or rules for a mandatory paper record of the vote, but 22 states are holding out.
Now activists are banding together and suing.
LOWELL FINLEY, VOTER ACTION: Sometimes litigation is the only way to get the attention of the officials. And in the end, sometimes the only way that the change can be brought about, by asking a judge to order it.
PILGRIM: Today, voter activists filed a lawsuit in Pennsylvania against the secretary of state and county election officials alleging current electronic voting machines violate state election codes and the state constitution.
There is a groundswell of e-voting litigation with cases in California, Arizona, Colorado Maryland, New Jersey and Georgia. In New Mexico, a successful court case forced the entire state to use optically-scanned paper ballots. In Georgia, plaintiffs representing the state's nine million voters have filed a lawsuit.
GARLAND FAVORITO, VOTERGA.ORG: We have a group of approximately eight plaintiffs that span the complete political spectrum. And we all agree on one thing: we have to be able to hold legitimate elections before we can even discuss political issues. So we've decided to put all our political issues or differences aside, and let's focus on one thing. Let's restore the integrity of Georgia elections.
PILGRIM: In Georgia, activists say they did not push for this November's midterm election. They would rather not rush a judge and have the issue examined in depth before the next presidential election.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, some cases challenge the reliability of the electronic voting machines, saying they can be hacked or tampered with. Other cases focus on the state constitution and the obligation to provide a permanent record of the election.
The goal is the same, to make sure that a permanent record exists of any election held in the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: What a good idea.
PILGRIM: It seems pretty simple.
DOBBS: It's straightforward. You know, I cannot believe that there would be anyone who would suggest there shouldn't be a paper record of these votes, irrespective of the machine or the type of equipment used.
PILGRIM: Well, it's come to the point that they actually have to sue to get it. They can't get legislation to do it.
Kitty, thank you very much, as we continue your excellent series of reports on our democracy at risk. Taking a look now at your thoughts.
Dianne in Illinois, "Once upon a time there was a war on drugs. Now we have a war on U.S. Border Patrol agents doing their job stopping drug carriers from bringing drugs across our border. The drug carrier gets amnesty, the agents get a felony conviction."
Tracy in Texas, "I am for the first time really ashamed to live in the United States. The idea that we treat men who put their life on the line every day like this makes me sick. Instead of protecting the rights of criminals, we need to protect the rights of those who are making our country a safer place to live."
Jim in Michigan, "Lou, we can't carry toothpaste, shaving cream, pudding, Jell-O and many more items. This is all done to protect the people in the name of safety. But on the other hand, we can let human beings cross the border because evidently they don't pose a safety threat. How can our government be so hypocritical and how do they look themselves in the mirror?"
Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. More of your thoughts coming up here later.
Next, Border Patrol agents who put their lives on the line every day to protect this country. So why is the federal government prosecuting Border Patrol agents and giving criminals a free pass?
We'll continue to follow the case that many are now calling one of the worst miscarriages of justice.
Stay with us for that.
And new proof that the Census Bureau isn't ready to answer a critical question about how many people live in this country. Legally or illegally.
And President Bush, he insists Israel has won the war against Hezbollah.
Three of the country's most distinguished military and strategic analysts join us. We'll have their views as well.
That and a great deal more coming right up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Census Bureau tonight has released new data on the immigration explosion that is taking place in the country. The Census Bureau, of course, makes no distinction between legal and illegal immigration, but the fact is there is a dramatic and unprecedented explosion.
Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Immigration is exploding in this country, according to the Census Bureau, led predominantly by Mexican-born immigrants, but with huge gains by Chinese and Indians as well.
WILLIAM FREY, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: What this study shows is that the fortune-born population, the immigrant population, is dispersing broadly across the country. I mean, after the 2000 census, we got some hint of this, but that was really the tip of the iceberg.
ROMANS: The census counts almost five million new immigrants added from 2000 to 2005, for a grand total of 35.7 million immigrants in this country, or about one in eight households. A monumental demographic shift under way changing America's small towns, yet there is little effort to discern how much of this immigration is illegal.
The Census Bureau counts only residents. And while asking questions about age, race and education, it does not ask about legal status. Instead, measuring only whether a resident is foreign born.
JAY WAITE, CENSUS BUREAU: If you're foreign born and you're not a citizen, we do not inquire about whether you're here legally or illegally. Our main goal in doing the census is to get very, very high response rates.
ROMANS: Here is what we do know. There were huge gains in the number of foreign-born residents in states like Nebraska, Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina, Delaware and New Hampshire. The largest immigrant populations remain in California, New York, Texas, Florida, New Jersey and Illinois, people from Mexico dominating immigration growth.
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: What we've not had before is one country that dominates the flow decade after decade after decade. Mexico is on its third decade of dominating U.S. immigration. And because it's roughly five times or more bigger than any other country sending immigrants to the United States.
ROMANS: Posing challenges for assimilation and language.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: America has never before experienced an immigration tsunami like this, with so many immigrants from the same country speaking the same language, Lou.
DOBBS: And it's interesting that the Census Bureau took no note of historical references to compare this to previous waves of immigration, whether it be 1910 or the late 19th century. This is absolutely unprecedented. And this government has no policy that it is following. It has absolutely no security of its borders or its ports.
ROMANS: Independent analysts will deduce from this information what they think is the illegal alien population of this country, but they're just counting households at this point. Immigrant is just one big group according to the numbers we get from the United States government.
DOBBS: And of course, immigrant skews the entire discussion because the issue is not about immigration. It's about illegal immigration. Christine, thank you very much for that great report -- Christine Romans.
Joining me now to discuss the significance of these new findings from our government, its impact on our government policy, if any and our standard of living, Brent Wilkes, he's the national executive director of the League of United Latin American Citizens and Professor George Grayson, an expert on Mexico, professor at the College of William and Mary.
Gentlemen, good to have you both here. Let me begin with you, Brent. What's your reaction to this? I mean, these are extraordinary numbers. We're talking about 40 and 50 percent increases in immigration in some cases in the course of less than five years.
BRENT WILKES, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN-AMERICAN CITIZENS: Well, we certainly are seeing a continuation of the trend of high numbers of immigrants coming to the United States working in jobs that Americans are offering them and helping bolster the U.S. economy. It's helped get us back into a very positive economic growth and we continue to see likely prospects of continued need for U.S. workers.
So the big thing, Lou, is we need to come up with a strategy to allow people to come here legally. I agree with you, we don't want to continue having illegal immigrants, but we need to create a legal avenue for these folks to come to take these jobs that our economy is taking year after year. And they're doing a great job helping make America stronger, helping keep our economy humming along.
DOBBS: Brent, if I didn't know better, I'd suggest -- I mean, I could almost infer from what you said that you were just pro-explosion of people into this country. Are you?
WILKES: Not at all, Lou. I think -- I believe and what LULAC supports is we want to have enough workers coming in to satisfy the demands of the U.S. economy and no more. We don't want them taking jobs from U.S. workers, but there are -- our economy is generating more jobs than U.S. workers can fill. And about having these workers coming in, they're taking hard jobs, they're not getting paid as well as U.S. workers, but they're creating a lot of economic benefit for our country, over $800 million in economic stimulus to the United States each year.
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa. The fact is that immigrants, legal and illegal, are contributing certainly under half of one percent of the GDP, Brent. I know there are a lot of numbers there that you can play with, but those are the facts. George Grayson, what's your reaction?
GEORGE GRAYSON, PROFESSOR: Well I know Mr. Wilkes has a sense of humor, so I would be compelled to say that I think he belongs to the Marie Antoinette school of economics. When you've got millions and millions of newcomers in this country, and I admire their pluck and their get up and go, but we have more than 30 million legal residents in this country, African-Americans, Anglos, Hispanic Americans, who are unemployed or who live below the poverty line.
And every time you have one or 1.5 million newcomers entering the United States, it doesn't compete with the head of a special interest group or with a tenured college professor, but it certainly competes with the poor in our society whose condition is getting worse and worse.
WILKES: Lou, study after study has shown that there is no impact on the U.S. workers. In fact, if anything, the U.S. workers are benefiting from immigration coming into this country and stimulating our economy. And we're in a global economy now, Lou. It is not just the United States we're talking about. So if we allow our trade deficit to keep going because we denied the economy the workers that they need, that's going to hurt all Americans, not just the workers who want to come in.
DOBBS: Brent, I understand you're an enthusiastic advocate of the policies of LULAC, but just a few facts if you would like to consider. Professor George Morehouse at Harvard University has estimated the impact on workers in this country of immigration levels of recent years of $200 billion in depressed wages a year.
We're actually seeing unemployment rates in the lowest wage scales rise and wages decline at the lowest end of the wage scales which is where illegal immigrants particularly fall. So when you say no study suggests that, it's just simply, if I may say, not entirely accurate.
And secondly, the Pew Hispanic Center itself points out that illegal immigrants are displacing in many cases Hispanic workers at the lowest end of the wage scale. So it's not quite as straightforward and certainly not as positive as you would suggest.
WILKES: Well Lou, the Pew just did a recent study on August 11th. They found very little impact. Now there certainly can be examples of where there's pockets of people being impacted by immigrant labor and certainly there should be resources by the government to help those folks.
But overall, Lou, is what we're talking about. Overall, we've got people working hard, they're picking our food, they're building our homes, they're taking care of our kids. They're doing an awful lot to benefit the United States. We just need to create a legal avenue for them to come here and we can take away all the ills associated with the illegal immigrant population by providing a legal avenue for them to be here in the first place.
DOBBS: Well that's certainly one bright perspective. George Grayson, yours?
GRAYSON: Could I just say a word about the Pew study?
DOBBS: Surely. GRAYSON: And I have great respect for the organization. But I think their study on employment just doesn't pass the smile test. They use two factors. One was the increase in the number of migrants into states and the second factor was employment level of Americans.
They didn't look at wage rates, which is a crucial factor. They didn't look at fringe benefits. They didn't look at the kinds of jobs that were being affected. And I can tell you, you can leave Williamsburg, Virginia, where I am now and travel south to North Carolina and to South Carolina and Georgia and Tennessee, and you will see town after town where most of the signs are in Spanish and there are tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of poor, young African- Americans, Anglos and Hispanic Americans who are unemployed.
DOBBS: I'm going to have to end it there, gentlemen, if I may. And I'm going to just say one thing and see if you both can agree at least on this. That this report by the Census Bureau, as inadequate and flawed as it is, at least suggests the dimensions in part of the problem in that it is not dealing with the two basic causes of this amazing problem that we're dealing with, unprecedented problem in illegal immigration.
It doesn't deal with the root causes, obviously, of the poverty and the misgovernment in Mexico and throughout central America, but primarily Mexico, and it doesn't deal with the illegal employers who are committing crimes by hiring people illegally and creating the magnet. Would you both agree with that assessment? Brent?
WILKES: Yes, I'd agree with that, Lou. It's meant to just survey population. It doesn't go into that.
DOBBS: George Grayson?
GRAYSON: I agree, plus two-thirds of Americans want to see immigration limited or reduced. In a democracy, I think we should take public opinion seriously.
DOBBS: And whether we increase or reduce immigration, it should be a matter of U.S. policy, certainly not that of the government of Mexico or a default on the part of the people we elect to represent the American people. Brent Wilkes, as always, good to have you with us.
WILKES: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Professor Grayson, as always, good to have you with us.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is, Given the Census Bureau's report of the dramatic increase in legal and illegal immigration, and for reasons of national security, perhaps, do you believe there is urgency in securing our borders and ports? Yes or no, please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results upcoming.
Tonight, new evidence that your government is somewhat conflicted about border security. In eight states, dozens of Mexican illegal aliens are tonight under arrest in a heroin drug bust. In Texas, two border patrol agents have been convicted and face 20 years for shooting a Mexican drug smuggler. What are we missing? We'll have the special report that will connect the dots.
And violence erupts over Mexico's contested presidential election. We'll have the latest for you. And tonight, a new war is raging over just who won the war between Israel and Hezbollah. Three leading military and strategic authorities join me to give us their assessment and the implications of what has happened in the Middle East over the course of the past month. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Israel and the United States went to war in Lebanon and Iraq believing that massive firepower combined with limited ground operations could be successful in defeating an insurgent army. In both cases, that has not turned out to be entirely accurate.
Joining me now to discuss the challenges of asymmetric warfare, as it is called, three of the country's best military and strategic analysts: Richard Shultz, professor at Tufts University Fletcher School, author of "Insurgents, Terrorists and Militias; Max Boot, senior fellow for the Council on Foreign Relations, author of the forthcoming book "War Made New"; Robert Kaplan, correspondent for "Atlantic Monthly," author of the book "Imperial Grunts" and others. Good to have you all with us.
Dick Shultz, let me start with you. Who won the war in -- over the past better than a month between Hezbollah and Israel?
RICHARD SHULTZ, TUFTS UNIV. FLETCHER SCHOOL: Well, Lou, I think that Hezbollah is going to claim that they won the war.
DOBBS: As they have.
SHULTZ: Well, they think they win by not losing. Israel, on the other hand, went in with, I believe, objectives that were not achievable. They were going to destroy Hezbollah. So in my view, I don't think either won, although Hezbollah clearly will win the propaganda war on this in this Middle East.
DOBBS: Was this worthwhile for Israel, Max Boot?
MAX BOOT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: That's a very tough question to answer, Lou. I think they really had no choice because they were facing aggression on their northern frontier. No nation can just sit back while its territory is invaded, its soldiers kidnapped and killed. I think they had to strike back. Now, did they strike back in the right way? Probably not, because at best this is a stalemate and I think they could have had more decisive results if they had tried something different.
DOBBS: Do you concur, Robert Kaplan?
ROBERT KAPLAN, "ATLANTIC MONTHLY": Never before in Israel's military history has Israel been perceived to have done as badly. And in the Middle East, perceptions are often more important than facts.
They've degraded their medium and long-range missile facilities of Hezbollah, but the short-range is still a problem. They're probably safer today than they were six weeks ago, but safer enough to make how they fought over the past six weeks worthwhile? I think not.
DOBBS: A matter, in your view, of being at the margin.
Dick Shultz, what are the implications as a result of this conflict, the cease-fire? What is the implication for both Israel, for Hezbollah, for the region, and U.S. policy there?
SHULTZ: Well, for Israel, the issue is can Hezbollah be put in a position where it can't constitute, what I consider to be, a strategic threat to Israel? Here we have an armed group that has missiles that can hit any Israeli city. Israel can't live with that.
The question for Hezbollah, I think, is complicated because we don't know what is Hezbollah. Is it a political movement? It is a militia? Is it a social movement? Is it a terrorist organization? It's all of those right now.
DOBBS: Yes.
SHULTZ: And so the question is, where does Hezbollah go and how do they fit into what we thought was going to be the new Lebanon after the Cedar Revolution.
DOBBS: And Iran and Syria, Max Boot, where are they in all of this? What is the impact on U.S. policy?
BOOT: Well, you can certainly argue that Syria and Iran are the big winners because they essentially fought a proxy war against Israel and managed to land some real body blows at no cost to themselves. I mean, I was just in Israel and I was talking to a senior government official who told me we're walking with our eyes wide open into the next war.
And he thought the next war would be against Syria, because Syria is getting stronger all the time, they're getting resupplied with more and more Iranian missiles, some of which they're passing on to Hezbollah, others of which they're going to keep for themselves. This is a real long-term, strategic challenge for Israel which they haven't really dealt with up until this time.
DOBBS: Robert, let's turn to a war that we do have and one that is not going well and that is, of course, in Iraq. Not a single general has been fired. We are now there three years, engaged in a conflict against insurgents, a war against what the Pentagon now has taken to calling, in the course of three years, migrating from thugs, bitter enders and dead enders to now, at least for awhile, saying insurgents but now referring to militias and death squads.
KAPLAN: And part of the problem is we have 135,000 troops, which sounds like a lot, but they disappear into the immensity of the Iraqi landscape of 23 million people. So it's not just a matter of ramping up maybe to 150,000. It's what are you going to do with them?
And part of the problem is most of the troops we have there don't do very much. They never see outside of the base. And most of the troops that do the fighting are a very small percentage.
What we lack is not numbers, but we lack well-trained area experts, small unit area experts because in counterinsurgency, what it's all about is being embedded in with the indigenous forces, living in towns and villages, providing security 24/7 and learning how to kill without firing a shot almost, by finding out through language, through intelligence where these guys are. Because killing the enemy is easy. It's finding them that's difficult.
DOBBS: Dick, your views on U.S. military leadership in Iraq, three years and contending with an insurgency that has escalated now to what most would call a civil war, but the Pentagon certainly resists that characterization. Should some generals be fired for this?
SHULTZ: Well, I'm not going to suggest firing generals, but I will suggest that we need generals who learn. And one of the big problems in Iraq is we went in without an understanding of what the day after was going to be like. I agree with my good friend Bob Kaplan that intelligence is the issue.
Now, I've been working with a fellow in Washington, Greg Ottson (ph). We went around the world as part of a armed group study to figure out how others better collected intelligence in situations like Iraq. And there is a better way to do this. We call it intelligence dominance. And there's a method that can help us find the insurgents in Iraq, as Bob suggests we need to do.
DOBBS: Intelligence -- I think a lot of people would be screaming, yes, intelligence is the issue here, intelligent leadership, intelligent strategy and intelligent results. Each of you works in one capacity or another with the leadership in the Pentagon. Shouldn't there be accountability here?
BOOT: Well, I've suggested, Lou, that we do need new leadership at the Pentagon and in some areas of the military. Look, I think the leadership has gotten a lot better in the last two years in Iraq, but the problem is that we had a catastrophic first year for which we're still paying a heavy price.
And, unfortunately, right now it is very hard to see much signs of progress. Instead, what you're seeing is this insurgency is morphing into a civil war. And at this point, I think, we have to think outside the box and think about new options. And I've suggested, for example, either a large increase in the number of troops or a decrease, but we have to do something different because just talking about staying the course is just not working.
DOBBS: Or as Bob Kaplan suggests, an entirely different strategy and set of tactics and deployment.
Dick Shultz, Robert Kaplan, we thank you for being here. Max Boot, thank you very much. And the issue, obviously, resting on the fact that we've got the finest men and women in uniform deployed there. Leadership, results and accountability. Thank you, gentlemen.
Coming up at the top of the hour, THE SITUATION ROOM with Wolf Blitzer tonight in Jerusalem -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou.
Coming up, my exclusive interview with one of the most powerful women in Israel's government. What she says about Iran's and Syria's claims today that Hezbollah came out victorious in its 34-day war with Israel.
And another CNN exclusive -- a young man says he was brought up to kill Americans. Now he's telling us about his journey from al Qaeda training camps to the CIA.
And strong words from the Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson. Why he says the war between Israel and Hezbollah accomplished absolutely nothing. All that coming up right here in THE SITUATION ROOM. We're live in Jerusalem -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf.
Tonight, an eight-state heroin bust involving dozens of illegal aliens from Mexico. Yet, two Texas-based U.S. Border Patrol agents facing 20 years in prison. The Mexican drug smuggler in that case, immunity from prosecution. We'll make the link for you. A special report on what some are calling one of the worst miscarriages of justice.
And violent protests today in Mexico City. The nation's disputed presidential election threatens to trigger widespread civil unrest. We'll have the latest for you and a great deal more. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Protests over Mexico's disputed presidential election today turned violent. In Mexico City, at least eight supporters of Manuel Lopez Obrador were injured in clashes with federal police. Mexican lawmakers were among those roughed up by authorities. And Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador considers himself the rightful legal winner of last month's presidential election. But the official vote tally has the ruling party's candidate victorious by just about a 0.5 percent, with a refusal by that nation's supreme court to order a full recount.
There's further proof tonight that this nation needs a strong, effective Border Patrol protecting this nation. The government today announced that it has broken up a black tar heroin trafficking ring that has been operating in eight states. Half of the almost 140 suspects arrested in the operation are illegal aliens from Mexico. Much of the heroin they sold was smuggled in the United States by illegal aliens, who were carrying the heroin under their clothing as they crossed the border into the United States. Two U.S. Border Patrol agents are scheduled to be sentenced a week from today for pursuing and then shooting a Mexican drug smuggler and illegal alien. The drug smuggler was granted immunity from prosecution by the U.S. attorney in Texas and required to testify against those agents. He's a free man tonight, with full immunity for his crimes.
The case, which we continue to follow every day on this broadcast, is further evidence of Washington's failure to support U.S. Border Patrol agents as they try to protect our borders and the nation. Casey Wian reports.
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CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean are awaiting a possible 20-year prison sentence for trying to apprehend a Mexican drug smuggler, who was granted immunity from prosecution.
Their case has sparked national outrage that the federal government is siding with an admitted criminal instead of law enforcement officers working to secure our borders.
T.J. BONNER, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: This type of prosecution sends a very chilling message to every Border Patrol agent and other law enforcement agent out there in the country. Do your job at the risk of going to prison.
WIAN: It's not the first time. Another Texas Border Patrol agent, Gary Brugman (ph), in March was released after serving more than two years in prison for pushing an illegal alien to the ground with his foot. The illegal alien had been caught trying to enter the United States three times within 48 hours and was not complying with orders to sit. He was uninjured in the incident.
Ronald Tonkin was Brugman's attorney, and he says the case had a chilling effect on other Border Patrol agents in Texas.
RONALD TONKIN, ATTORNEY: The particular individuals that I spoke to were shocked, first of all, at the prosecution, and felt that they may be subject to either disciplinary action or criminal prosecution. And they felt that they should hold back in their enforcement efforts.
WIAN: Testimony in the case of agents Ramos and Compean also reveals that Border Patrol agents routinely hold back enforcement efforts. Other agents testified they often push illegal aliens back across the border to Mexico instead of trying to apprehend them. The reason? They don't want to do the paperwork.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: What's the payoff for doing the job, for actually pursuing your job, and in this case, illegal aliens aggressively? The payoff is that, yes, there's a lot of paperwork you'll probably have to do. They'll probably going to get let off. You can understand why the morale at the agency would be at just absolutely lower than a snake's belly. WIAN: The Border Patrol has reduced its annual turnover rate in recent years, but it remains among the highest of federal law enforcement agencies. Fabens, Texas agents also testified they were encouraged by their supervisor to begin apprehending more drivers of vehicles carrying drugs across the border. That's exactly what agents Compean and Ramos were trying to do, and they're likely to receive long jail sentences as a result.
(on camera): Support for the agents continues to build. The group 9/11 Families for a Secure America is calling for an independent congressional investigation into their case.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And for information on how you can help these agents, Ramos and Compean, and their defense fund go to our Web site, LouDobbs.com.
Still ahead here, we'll have more of your thoughts and the results of our poll tonight. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Ninety-six percent of you say given the dramatic increase in legal and illegal immigration, and for of course reasons of national security, you think there might be some urgency in securing our borders and ports. Now, if we could only convince our government.
Many of you writing in about our report on the two sets of accounting records the United States government uses. Maria in New Jersey said: "I thought it was a crime to cook the books. Is anyone going to jail? We're talking government here." The accounting records are detailed in the financial report of the United States, Congressman Cooper wrote the foreword. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of that important report and a copy of Senator Byron Dorgan's book, "Take This Job and Ship It."
Taking a look now at your thoughts. We'll ask you to send those thoughts to us at LouDobbs.com.
We thank you for being with us tonight. Ask you to be with us tomorrow evening. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" begins now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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