Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
General John Abizaid Rejects Timetable Calls For Iraq Troop Withdrawal; Mexican Government Investigating Possible Incursion By U.S. Border Patrol Agents Into Mexican Territory; U.S. Navy Trying To Downplay Confrontation Between Chinese Submarine And USS Kitty Hawk; New Report Shows United States Slipping Further Behind In Access To Higher Education; Farmers Branch Immigration Policy Debate Heats Up; John Bolton Interview
Aired November 15, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Congress holding its first hearing on the Iraq war since the Democrats won the midterm election. And our top commander in the Middle East is confronted by some of his fiercest critics. General John Abizaid rejects Democratic calls for a timetable for withdrawal, and he clashes with Republicans over troop levels. Senator John McCain, who's called for additional troops, said Abizaid is maintaining the status quo.
Embattled U.N. Ambassador John Bolton joins us here tonight. His tenure at the United Nations uncertain.
And we'll speak with the deputy mayor of a small Texan town, among a growing number of cities and towns across the nation taking action on their own to confront our illegal immigration crisis while the federal government does nothing.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Wednesday, November 15th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, on a day in which eight more of our troops were killed in Iraq, the U.S. Senate held its first hearing on the war since the Democrats won the election. Our top military commander in Iraq, General John Abizaid, challenged critics on both sides of the aisle. Top Democrats clashed with the general over timetables.
The general also rejected Senator John McCain's request for more troops. McCain accused General Abizaid of supporting the status quo.
Jamie McIntyre tonight reports on the confrontation between the Pentagon's top brass and a Congress demanding answers.
Dana Bash reports on the surprising tough questioning by Senate Republicans at that hearing.
And Michael Ware, in Baghdad, reports on the seemingly impossible task of the Iraqi security forces. Will they be ready to take over? Can they do the job? We begin tonight with Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, General John Abizaid began his Senate testimony with a disclaimer that nothing in his testimony should be seen as an endorsement of a shift in direction. What followed was a vigorous defense of the current policy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Two big ideas for a change in course in Iraq got a big thumbs down from the top U.S. military commander for the Persian Gulf region, who wants no marching orders from Congress.
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, U.S. CENTRAL COMMANDER: At this stage in the campaign, we'll need flexibility to manage our force and to help manage the Iraqi force. Force caps and specific timetables limit that flexibility.
MCINTYRE: Bad idea number one, argues General John Abizaid, is the phased withdrawal of U.S. troops within four to six months, advocated by some Democrats like incoming Senate Armed Serviced Committee chairman Carl Levin.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), INCOMING CHAIRMAN, SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: That is not precipitous. It is a responsible way to change the dynamic in Iraq to stop the march down the path to full- blown civil war on which the Iraqis are now embarking.
MCINTYRE: But Abizaid insists any withdrawal now would simply make things worth.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: What do you believe, General, would be the effect on the sectarian violence in Iraq?
ABIZAID: I believe it would increase.
MCINTYRE: Bad idea number two, says the general, adding more U.S. troops to restore stability in the short term, as advocated by senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham.
ABIZAID: No, I do not believe that more American troops right now is the solution to the problem.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Do we need less American troops?
ABIZAID: I believe that the troop levels need to stay where they are. We need to put more American capacity into Iraqi units to make them more capable in their ability to confront the sectarian problem.
MCINTYRE: Abizaid advocates essentially putting the current strategy on steroids, adding more trainers and advisors, kicking the turnover to Iraqi forces into a higher gear. It's a middle ground that infuriated Senator John McCain, who could not understand how more U.S. troops wouldn't help bring violence under control. ABIZAID: And the reason is because we want the Iraqis to do more. It's easy for the Iraqis to rely upon us to do this work. I believe that more American forces prevent the Iraqis from doing more, from taking more responsibility for their own future.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And Lou, at a second Senate session this afternoon, the generals who head the CIA and the DIA cited what they called former obstacles facing the Iraqi government, including internal divisions and power struggles within the Shia, the -- what they called the Iranian hands stoking violence of rival Shia groups, security forces played by sectarianism, and what they called the pernicious effect of Al Qaeda in Iraq. That even though it's lost some of its leaders, has "a pretty deep bench of low-level people willing to step up."
The final assessment of the CIA director, this will be, he said, unfortunately, a long struggle -- Lou.
DOBBS: A long struggle, General Abizaid rejecting timetables. Did the general take responsibility for the number of American troops killed in Iraq, the number wounded? Did he give any indication to the committee as to how long we should expect to be patient before this general's staff comes up with a strategy for victory in Iraq?
MCINTYRE: Well, obviously, while not asked that question directly, General Abizaid does take responsibility for the military strategy. He indicated that he thought that it was a window of four to six months to get things under control.
He remained cautiously optimistic, even as he admitted that the violence is dangerously high. But Lou, of course, we've heard all along the way that the next six months is crucial. And so it's hard to see how this six months might be any different from those last crucial periods.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie.
Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon.
Today's Armed Services Committee hearing was the first on Iraq since the Democrats won control of both houses and both sides of the aisle, expressed dissatisfaction with General Abizaid's answers today.
Dana Bash reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It may have been the first Iraq hearing since Democrats won control of Congress, but it was the Republicans reeling from their election losses who were the toughest.
Outgoing GOP Armed Services chairman John Warner noted, "Iraq has lasted almost as long as World War II, with little progress." SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), ARMED SERVICES CHAIRMAN: An extraordinary situation of civil disruption, the inability of the government to fully exercise the reins of sovereignty.
How do you -- how do you explain that in simple terms to the American people?
BASH: In a political world where Iraq will dominate for the foreseeable future, some of the sharpest exchanges came from senators eyeing a 2008 run for the White House.
A moment of vindication for Senator John McCain, who said from the start not enough troops were sent to Iraq.
MCCAIN: Would more American troops have made a difference?
ABIZAID: I think you can look back and say that more American troops would have been advisable in the early stages.
BASH: And frustration when General John Abizaid said more troops now is not the answer.
MCCAIN: Basically you're advocating the status quo here today, which I think the American people in the last election said that is not an acceptable condition.
ABIZAID: Senator, I agree with you. The status quo is not acceptable. And I don't believe what I'm saying here today is the status quo.
BASH: Abizaid also rejected Democratic ideas to partition Iraq and start bringing some troops home.
Senator Hillary Clinton lashed out, saying she sees no path to victory.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Hope is not a strategy. Hortatory talk about what the Iraqi government must do is getting old.
I mean, I have heard over and over again, the government must do this, the Iraqi army must do that. Nobody disagrees with that. The brutal fact is, it is not happening.
ABIZAID: And I would also day that despair is not a method. And when I come to Washington, I feel despair. When I'm in Iraq with my commanders, when I talk to our soldiers, when I talk to the Iraqi leadership, they are not despairing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: But as was clear in today's hearing, members of both parties are downright exasperated. And, in fact, we learned late this afternoon that the Republican and Democratic heads of the Armed Services Committee are actually working on a proposal, a bipartisan proposal they say they hope to give to the president in January to try to change course in Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
Iraqi insurgents have killed eight more of our troops. Two U.S. soldiers were killed in northwest Baghdad by a roadside bomb. One soldier and three Marines were killed west of the Iraqi capital in Al Anbar Province. Two of our soldiers died in Samarra, where an improvised explosive device exploded.
2,859 of our troops have now been killed. More insurgent bombs and bullets killing scores of Iraqis today. Twelve killed by a car bomb near a gasoline station in Baghdad. The bullet-riddled bodies of 55 people were found in neighborhoods all across the city.
General Abizaid's plan for Iraq is to speed up the hand-over from American to Iraqi troops. But the question is, are Iraqi forces up to the task?
Michael Ware reports from Baghdad with some answers to that question and a reminder of what past experience with the Iraqis has taught us -- Michael.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the answer to both questions, whether the security forces are up to the task and what experience has actually taught us here on the ground, is the same. It's truly a mixed bag.
I've personally been in combat with some Iraqi units, particularly from the army, that can definitely hold their own. They've had a lot of time with American forces. But most of these units are Kurdish, from the Kurdish Peshmerga militia.
But by and large, within the Iraqi security apparatus it's a very different story. As the national security adviser said of the Iraqi cabinet, the same could be said of much of the security forces. They answer more to their political and sectarian bosses than they do to their military commanders.
We see entire national police brigades pulled off line under the suspicion of corruption and involvement in sectarian death squads. We've seen Iraqi units on the battlefield that have not shown the metal that is required of them to stand in the face of al Qaeda onslaughts. We've seen other units where more men are on vacation than are actually on duty, where men are on the rosters who don't actually exist, and where units which have been asked to be deployed to other troublesome parts of the country have refused to leave their home bases.
So the Iraqi security forces that General Abizaid and other American commanders and war planners are placing their faith in certainly do not seem to be apparent here on the ground -- Lou.
DOBBS: Michael Ware reporting from Baghdad. Up next here, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton joins us. We'll be talking about trade, Iran, and his future at the United Nations.
Another case of U.S. border patrol agents doing their jobs and in trouble. Mexico's upset that our border patrol agents crossed the border while chasing a drug smuggler, they say.
We'll have that report.
Cities and towns across the country taking action against illegal immigration while the federal government does nothing. These towns and communities facing challenges from the ACLU and a host of other groups.
We'll have that report.
And the U.S. Navy still trying to explain an incident between a Chinese submarine and the U.S. aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk.
We'll have that report here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Mexican government tonight is investigating what it calls a possible incursion by U.S. border patrol agents into Mexican territory. Some local Mexican officials are already condemning the United States, yet Mexican agents have violated U.S. sovereignty hundreds of times over the past decade.
Casey Wian brings us up to date.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Last Thursday, border patrol agents from Fabens, Texas, and other area stations followed this pickup truck loaded with nearly a ton of marijuana. The smugglers fled into Mexico and abandoned the stolen American truck in the Rio Grande, with its front wheels on the Mexican side.
Border patrol agents tried to pull the vehicle back into U.S. territory. Then Mexican law enforcement agents arrived and confronted the group of 15 to 20 border patrol agents and supervisors.
Guns were drawn but no shots were fired. Mexican police dragged the vehicle out of the Rio Grande and seized all but 300 pounds of the drugs which the border patrol had already collected.
T.J. BONNER, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: These are drugs that illegally entered into the United States, people who illegally entered into the United States. We had every right to chase them and to try and bring them to justice.
WIAN: Still, Mexico's attorney general says it's investigating the "... probable incursion of North American police into Mexican territory." Mexican federal officials tell CNN they're likely to drop the matter if they find the agents were in fact busting a drug load.
However, the city of Juarez is condemning the United States for violating Mexican sovereignty, though that's exactly what Mexican law enforcement officers have done more than 200 times over the past decade. In some cases, protecting drug loads, not trying to apprehend them. Even so, Juarez is demanding the Mexican federal government lodge an official complaint with the United States.
Fabens, Texas, is where former border patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean tried to apprehend a Mexican drug smuggler last year and received lengthy prison terms for their efforts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Border Patrol union officials are worried the agents involved in the latest incident could also face consequences for their efforts to stop a drug load. The Border Patrol says it's investigating as it does with all cross-border incursions -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, I suppose that we should point out that there is some positive element to all of this, Casey. This would be the first time, at least in my memory, that the Mexican government has actually recognized that there was a sovereign border between the two -- the two nations.
WIAN: Yes, absolutely. They do recognize it, and despite the fact that they've complained loudly about our coverage of their incursions over the border -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, we certainly want to give them equal time wherever possible, particularly since Mexico is the principal source, as you have reported numerous times on this broadcast, Casey Wian, the principal source of methamphetamines, marijuana, cocaine and heroin entering the United States.
Casey, thank you very much.
Updating you now on the fate of those two U.S. border patrol agents that Casey just referred to, they now face 10 years in prison for doing their jobs. Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean trying to apprehend a Mexican drug smuggler who was driving a van loaded with more than 700 pounds of marijuana at the time. Those agents shot at the smuggler as he fled across the border with Mexico, and they have been convicted of assault, civil rights violations, and using a firearm to commit a crime.
The drug smuggler? He was granted immunity to testify against those agents.
The agents are awaiting appeal. Several congressmen have called for hearings before the end of this year. But so far, none of those hearings has been scheduled. Unless their bond is extended while their appeal is heard, they will have to surrender to authorities on the 17th of January. Seven-year-old Saul Arellano, a pawn in a battle over illegal immigration and border security, is still in Mexico tonight. Arellano yesterday persuaded Mexican lawmakers to pass a resolution asking the United States not to deport his mother.
His mother, an illegal alien who has been deported before, has taken refuge over the past three months in a Chicago church trying to avoid deportation. She has been deported before, and Elvira Arellano said Mexico's resolution is a historic moment. She said, "I believe our government" -- referring to the government of Mexico -- "is really interested in helping all the undocumented immigrants that are in this country and on the other side of the border.
Her son Saul Arellano will remain in Mexico until at least Saturday, we're told.
Turning now to the escalating communist Chinese military threat and challenge to the United States, the U.S. Navy tonight is trying to downplay a confrontation between a Chinese submarine and the USS Kitty Hawk. The commander of the U.S. Pacific fleet is in China now participating in joint military exercises, and he insists communist China is not a military threat.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Chinese military band playing for the crew of the USS Juneau. Four hundred American sailors getting ready for joint exercises with the communist Chinese. For the cameras, the U.S. Navy promising friendship and cooperation.
ADM. GARY ROUGHEAD, COMMANDER, U.S. PACIFIC FLEET: It's very important that as two professionals and that we work together.
ROMANS: This barely two weeks after a Chinese SONG class diesel- powered submarine like this one stalked the USS Kitty Hawk, surfacing, the Navy says, close to the carrier group before finally being spotted by a Navy aircraft. The commander of the Pacific fleet says China is not a threat, but says he would like to know more about its submarine capabilities. Joint exercises, the Navy says, are vital to preventing any misunderstandings.
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "NUCLEAR SHOWDOWN": The problem is not understanding or misunderstanding. It's just that the Chinese have a very aggressive behavior. And, you know, it's clear that the United States has a misperception of their relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a definite pattern over the last -- looking back over the last, say, 15 years of incidents like this. And the concern is always that something like this could easily spin out of control.
ROMANS: It was nearly six years ago that aggressive behavior like this led to a midair collision with a U.S. EP-3 surveillance plane. The 24-member American crew held by the Chinese for nearly two weeks. These joint exercises were meant to rebuild those strained military ties.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: As U.S. commanders confirm the Kitty Hawk incident and vow to cooperate with the Chinese, a spokesman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry this week, Lou, wouldn't even admit that the incident took place.
DOBBS: You know, the part of communist China I really have little regard one way or the other for what they say about this, unless they were to outright explain it, but the reaction of the U.S. military, the U.S. Navy in particular here, is bizarre. And frankly, unmilitary.
ROMANS: Admiral Roughead says that a threat is capacity plus intent. He says we know the Chinese have the capacity, but he doesn't think they have the intent.
DOBBS: He does think. But meanwhile, his job and the job of everyone in the U.S. Navy at the helm of the ship, in command of it, is to make certain they know precisely what's going on for the welfare of those sailors aboard and, of course, those very valuable military ships.
Thank you very much.
Christine Romans.
Coming up next here, war on the middle class. College degrees out of reach for too many of our middle class Americans. We'll have a special report on our lost competitive edge in education.
And homeland insecurity. A shocking investigation has revealed airport screeners at one of this country's major airports cheated. Imagine that.
And broken borders. The federal government has failed to deal with illegal immigration. Local governments are taking action.
We'll have a special report. And I'll be talking with the mayor of one small community that has taken action.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A shocking new report shows the United States slipping further behind when it comes to access to higher education. The implications for our young people, our middle class and the nation are ominous.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States used to have the most educated population in the world 30 years ago, even 20 years ago. The United States ranked number one in percentage of college-educated workforce. But not anymore.
Belgium, Canada, Ireland, Japan, Korea and Sweden all have higher percentages now. The U.S. is tied with Norway.
Columbia University's Institute on Education and the Economy finds Spain, France and Finland could also surpass the United States in the next few years.
THOMAS BAILEY, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: We're no longer the most highly educated population in the world. And there are questions about the content of what it is our students are learning.
PILGRIM: Education, a key to middle class status, is directly related to salary level later in life. A recent study found the median income for workers with a high school degree was $32,000. With a four-year college degree, $54,000 a year. And the median salary for those with a master's degree or higher was $72,000.
But even knowing this, there is a high college dropout rate in the United States. Often because of the expense of college.
SANDY BAUM, THE COLLEGE BOARD: It's very important that we have a highly educated workforce. Everyone is more productive, everyone earns more and is better off if more people have a college education. And we do have a problem with the fact that not enough of the students who begin a college education actually complete their degrees.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, The College Board says a lack of federal funding, coupled with the higher tuition costs, are creating a financial gap. And that means low-income students, even middle-income students with good academic qualifications are increasingly having to leave school before completing their degrees -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
Time now to look at some of your thoughts.
Tony in New Jersey said, "What is inhumane is how the Mexican government takes care of its people. Just as I keep the doors to my home closed and locked to prevent illegal intruders, I would expect my government to do the same."
Debbie in Arkansas, "Employers in this country are refusing to hire Americans because they can get an illegal alien for half as much money. If they say 'Viva la Mexico,' then I say go back to Mexico."
Send us your thoughts to LouDobbs.com. More of them coming up here later. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "War on the Middle Class."
And today, I responded to a few critics in the national media who found my views on illegal immigration, faith-based free trade and the well-being of our middle class to be somewhat irksome to their elitist minds. I invite you to go to CNN.com or to LouDobbs.com if you'd like to see my response to those little darlings.
Coming up next here, homeland insecurity. A shocking investigation revealing airport screeners cheating.
We'll have that special report.
And dozens of local communities cracking down on illegal immigration and running into fierce opposition. Two of our guests here tonight will take up the debate.
And embattled Ambassador John Bolton joins us on his future at the United Nations and on issues such as Iraq, Iran, North Korea and what's happening with this bipartisan Congress.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Surveillance cameras are supposed to be used to detect suspicious or dangerous activity, but a new government report coming out this Friday and obtained by CNN says that one major airport, cameras are being used to undermine covert tests of screeners themselves.
Jeanne Meserve reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Screeners at San Francisco's airport cheated when undercover inspectors tried to test them by smuggling weapons through check points, said whistleblower Gene Bencomo.
GENE BENCOMO, FORMER AIRPORT SCREENER: We would take physical descriptions of the auditors at the airport. For example, what they were wearing, how tall they were. The rest of the check points throughout the airport were tipped off to look for these individuals.
MESERVE: Now the Department of Homeland Security inspector general confirms covert testing at San Francisco was indeed compromised in 2003 and 2004. A new report says undercover auditors, once identified, were tracked through the airport with surveillance cameras and on foot. Investigators are now checking out allegations about a second airport.
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS), HOMELAND SECURITY CMTE: I had a similar situation in my home airport in Jackson, Mississippi where workers were tipped off that the red team would come and what they would be wearing, what kind of shoes, those kinds of things. MESERVE: Covenant Aviation Security, which employs the screeners in San Francisco, did not return our calls. The TSA refused our request for an on-camera interview. But a TSA spokesman says they fixed the problem at San Francisco and points out only two of the 425 U.S. airports are involved.
A man who once oversaw undercover audits however, believes cheating is more widespread and says reliable testing is the best means to detect and correct security shortfalls.
CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: That's really the only way that we have a sense of exactly what the screeners know and what they don't know.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: TSA says it takes any allegation that security is being compromised seriously. But Clark Kent Ervin, for one, thinks the TSA is sending exactly the opposite message. The private firm that hires the screeners in San Francisco has just been granted a five-year extension of its contract -- Lou?
DOBBS: Well, we're back to private firms being involved in screening, which was the case, of course, leading up to September 11th. History bound to be repeated, it seems. Thank you very much, Jeanne Meserve.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Do you believe that it is acceptable that more than five years after September 11, our ports of entry and borders are still not secure? Yes or no. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here later.
Farmers Branch, Texas is the latest American town facing an unchecked flood of illegal immigration. The town has levied a fine on property owners who rent to illegal aliens. It's the first Texas town to take such an action.
Joining me now, the deputy mayor of Farmers Branch, Tim O'Hare. He's been called a racist and a Nazi for passing that ordinance. And the president and general counsel of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund, John Trasvina. Good to have you both with us tonight.
TIM O'HARE, DEPUTY MAYOR, FARMERS BRANCH: Good evening Lou, good evening John.
DOBBS: Let me turn first to issue of the ordinance. In a very short statement, if you will, what is the reason that you and the city council felt you had to pass this ordinance?
O'HARE: I'd say it's two reasons, really. We had our constituents wanting us to do it and the federal government is failing to do its job.
DOBBS: And what was the problems in Farmers Branch that prompted that feeling?
O'HARE: Well, we have a number of problems. Our county hospital Parkland here in Dallas, spent $22.4 million last year an non- emergency health care for illegal aliens. Our school district spent $14 million in the last two years building pre-K schools essentially to teach people how to speak English and our citizens finally just had enough and asked us to do something.
DOBBS: John, why does this -- why do you find this ordinance to be objectionable, given what you just heard the deputy mayor say?
JOHN TRASVINA, PRESIDENT, MALDEF: Lou, we can't have our citizens and towns have an immigration policy anymore than they should have a military policy or a foreign policy.
Immigrant ought to be set at the international level. The voters this Tuesday, last Tuesday said that. They rejected an enforcement only and now Congress -- a lot of Texans from the Farmers Branch area -- Senator Cornyn, the president and members of the House, they ought to get together and work on immigration, comprehensive immigration reform, that's where we ought to solve the problem, not in cities and towns across the country.
O'HARE: Lou, I would agree that's what the federal government should be doing, but it's not what we're doing and that's why we're forced to take action.
DOBBS: Is there anything in the constitution, John, that makes it unlawful for a town to take action, as we were seeing a rising number of towns and communities all across the country do?
TRASVINA: This is not a new issue. It's been going back to the 1800s. Under the supremacy clause, immigration policy is set by the federal government. It's not set by cities and towns across the country. It belongs at the federal government level.
DOBBS: You know, Mr. O'Hare, that you're going to be sued. You're being sued. You knew that going into this. Are you prepared for it and what do you think is the best defense against that lawsuit?
O'HARE: You know, Lou, I think we are going to be sued. I don't think there's any doubt about this. The ACLU and LULAC have made that pretty clear. And we voted on this knowing that would happen.
I don't think you can lead a government or a private corporation if you governed your decisions based on whether or not you're going to be sued. We think it's the right thing to do. There are laws in the United States that are being broken. If the federal government is not going to do something about it, then I think local towns will.
DOBBS: As a matter of fact, the idea that this degenerated your town hall meeting into cries of racism and all sorts of name-calling, how do you feel about that?
O'HARE: Well, it doesn't feel good to be called a racist. It doesn't feel good to be called Hitler. I will tell you that it's amazing the support we have received from not just our residents but all across the country. And we've done some polls in our own city and people are behind this 90 percent. So it's not as divisive as what some media outlets would portray it to be.
DOBBS: John, your thoughts here. You don't see there's any way in which a town can determine whether or not -- you mentioned the supremacy clause. There's also that supremacy clause comes into effect, as you know, on the issue of sanctuary cities all over the country, some 50 of them, cities and counties, that have declared themselves to be sanctuaries, in direct violation of the 1996 immigration law. Have you all ever sued a city or county on that basis?
TRASVINA: I haven't heard the Justice Department suing them either. You can't break the constitution.
DOBBS: Well, we haven't heard about the Justice Department doing anything about border security, doing anything about immigration law.
TRASVINA: But this Farmers Branch policy will not create one more visa. It will not create an opportunity. It won't deport anybody either. It's going to require every child in Farmers Branch to have a passport or a government document in order to be in a family to rent there. It just doesn't make any sense for those people, or for anybody in Farmers Branch, and it will be discriminatory.
DOBBS: All right, well we appreciate you both being here to give us your views. We thank you both and good luck as you go forward here. We will be watching very, very closely as you might suspect.
O'HARE: Thanks for having me on, Lou.
TRASVINA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Coming up next, he's the tough talking, no nonsense U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. For some reason, some folks in Congress don't like him. John Bolton will join us here next.
And Democrats battling over who will be their leader in the House. Three of the best political journalists join me. Stay with us as we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today resubmitted John Bolton's nomination as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. President Bush gave the ambassador the position temporarily in August of last year. Ambassador Bolton's term expires when Congress adjourns, unless he receives Senate confirmation before then. Joining me now is the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton.
Mr. Ambassador, let's start with -- before we move to some of the internecine and domestic politics, let's move to those before the Security Council and confronting this country. Iran -- Iranian President Ahmadinejad talked about Iran's relationship with the United States. And I'd like everybody just to take a look at what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, IRAN (through translator): As for the U.S. government, we've always said we'll have a dialogue, but under certain conditions that have been created as a result of the behavior of the U.S. government towards us.
If they fix their behavior towards us, we will have a dialogue with them because that's a principle of our foreign policy. But, you know, they have their own way of thinking. They really think they own the world. They always sort of look down upon you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Well, the Iranian president obviously wants to fix the behavior of the U.S. government, says that the United States is acting in a condescending fashion and will press ahead regardless on its nuclear program. What is your position? What is that of the Security Council?
JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, it's pretty clear that Ahmadinejad is not at all impressed with the Security Council's last resolution which requires that Iran suspend its uranium enrichment activities. This is a key element of getting a nuclear weapons capability. We're trying to move for sanctions in the Security Council. We've run into a roadblock with the Russians. We're still working on it. We met again today, but with no progress.
DOBBS: You met again today. The president met with Putin briefly in Moscow on his way to Asia. Is the United States simply at a dead end in its diplomatic efforts here, particularly with the United Nations?
BOLTON: I think this is a real test for the Security Council. There's no question about it. The International Atomic Energy Agency just issued another report saying that for the last three months, Iran has not cooperated at all in resolving some of the key unresolved questions. The Iranians are, obviously, feeling their oats and this is a real issue, whether the Security Council can follow through on its earlier resolution.
DOBBS: We have a number of issues. Let's go first to a trade issue. The president had to go to Vietnam -- he's on his way to Vietnam -- without the trade bill that he had expected, permanent, PNTR. The House rejected it and then rejected the idea of bringing it back for majority vote because apparently old Republicans, new Republicans, new Democrats said we're not dealing with this nonsense.
At the same time, the U.S. trade representative with power invested in her by the World Trade Organization wrote over all of that. Vietnam's about to become a member of the World Trade Organization and the United States can do nothing in terms of political policy evaluation, but simply exceed to free trade within the framework of the WTO. Why in the world is the U.S. government permitting its sovereignty to be abused in this way? BOLTON: Well, for well or ill, trade's not my area, but I can tell you this. I think that there's a lot to be said for continuing this opening up of trade relations. My understanding is the House had some difficulties with the terms of the bilateral agreement. I think they'll certainly take a look at that again.
But I don't see anything inconsistent with being in favor of free trade and also aggressively promoting American interest, which I think the administration is trying to do.
DOBBS: So you don't see a problem with having a relationship between political judgments and commercial policy simultaneously, and that shouldn't be abrogated by a trade -- the WTO?
BOLTON: Well, I think there are a number of areas in what I deal with in terms of national defense...
DOBBS: And that only slightly joking.
BOLTON: ... in terms of national defense where you do get that relationship, and I think it's important.
DOBBS: It's also crystal clear that the United States trade policy right now -- what this administration is calling free trade -- is extremely expensive. The millions of jobs that have been lost, $5 trillion in trade debt, and 30 consecutive years of trade deficit, one begins to wonder when empirical evidence will be persuasive to some of the faith-based economists that are an employee of free traders.
Let's move to you and that is -- and get away from trade. You've done, by everyone's account, a terrific job representing the United States at the United Nations. Two people, Lincoln Chafee and Joe Biden, senators both, Republican and Democrat, don't like you a bit. What happens next?
BOLTON: Well, the White House is continuing to search for ways to get the nomination to the floor of the Senate and I think we've believed for 18 months now that if I could get a straight up or down vote on the Senate floor, I'd be confirmed.
So I'm glad that they're continuing to push for it. I'd certainly like that vote. I'm actually focusing my time and attention up here on Iran and North Korea, hoping that the situation in the Senate will take care of itself.
DOBBS: The situation in the Senate, whether it takes care of itself or not, are you open should the president decide another recess appointment?
BOLTON: Well, you know, one of the things I learned from Secretary Powell is that when you serve at the pleasure of the president, that's all you really should say. We're focused on getting this vote in the Senate and I think that's the right approach.
DOBBS: Well, I want to commend you, if I may, because you have done an outstanding job representing the United States at the United Nations. It's one of the toughest jobs in government.
It is also remarkable to me that a man of your capacity would tolerate the political nonsense within -- the partisan, political nonsense and all of the abuse. We're very lucky to have people who have both your talent and your patience. We thank you.
BOLTON: You're kind to say that.
DOBBS: John Bolton, thanks for being here.
BOLTON: Glad to be here.
DOBBS: Coming up next, a major announcement about 2008 from one Senator John McCain.
And I'll be talking with three of the brightest minds in politics about that and a whole lot more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: ...Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou.
He's seen by many as a front-runner in 2008. Now it looks like Senator John McCain is making a very serious move in a bid to run for president.
Also, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, calling for a timetable for withdrawing -- saying a timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops is a bad idea. Many Democrats don't agree. I'll talk to Senator Carl Leaven, set to head the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Also, James Carville taking direct aim at Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Why Carville says the Democrats should have done even better in the midterm elections.
All that coming up right here in the SITUATION ROOM -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Wolf.
Disgraced former lobbyist Jack Abramoff, off to federal prison today. Sentenced to nearly years for fraud, Abramoff handed out gifts, favors, cash to the powerful in Congress and at the White House.
Republican Senator John McCain has taken the first step, by the way, toward a 2008 White House bid. The senator from Arizona says he's forming a presidential exploratory committee, insisting he won't make a final decision until after the Christmas holidays.
Former Wisconsin Governor Tommy Thompson, also thinking about running, forming an exploratory committee early next year. Thompson, serving as Secretary of Health and Human Services in President Bush's first term. Joining me now, three of the very sharpest political minds in the country, former White House political director, Republican strategist Ed Rollins, Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf, Democratic strategist, Democratic National Committee member Robert Zimmerman.
Gentlemen, good to have you with us.
General Abizaid says it's not the status quo. John McCain, he looked like he just might have had a little bellyful of the general's response.
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, I think the general basically gave an honest answer to that. I think -- you know, I think everybody's a little frustrated by this, and I think that what the country has to understand is even though this election was about this war and the country clearly voted against it, it's not going to stop. Whatever the strategy may be...
DOBBS: What's not going to stop?
ROLLINS: The war's not going to stop. It's not going to be a short-term solution here, and I think many of the Democrats may want that. But it's going to take some time, and I think this is the beginning of a process to figure it out.
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It's only going to be a solution when our government demands the Iraqis step up. And they're only going to step up when we step back. The idea that -- we have now been fighting this war as long as the entire time of World War II, and, in fact, there are 300,000 -- we're told -- trained Iraqis.
And the government cannot organize them to defend themselves, really is the issue here.
ROLLINS: I don't think we're saying a whole lot different. I'm just simply saying, for us to expect -- and the American public to expect -- to happen overnight, or for anybody to propose that it's going to happen in six months -- if we try to pull out tomorrow, and I just think it's unrealistic...
ZIMMERMAN: No one's saying pull out tomorrow.
DOBBS: Jimmy McIntyre, our Pentagon correspondent, today made a very good point in reporting on this incident, talking about it's every six months. We need another six months, we need another six months.
There comes a point, and Hank Sheinkopf, do you think the American people were voting primarily on that -- obviously, this is wide open to interpretation -- are saying, enough of generals asking us for patience and it's time for our Congress and this president to demand of those generals victory and direction?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, they are -- the American public are tired of drift. They are tired of drift of the military, they are tired of drift in our social policy. They are tired of drift in corruption. They are tired of drift -- generally, they wouldn't charge.
But look, Senator Levin, who will head the Armed Services Committee in the Senate, this morning was pretty clear. He's going to review it. They're going to make a determination. They're not pulling out tomorrow. There'll be a phased withdrawal over time.
DOBBS: Four to six months, the beginning begins, is the way he put it.
Let me turn -- Mitch McConnell is the new minority leader in the Senate. Trent Lott, back in the leadership as Minority Whip.
Ed Rollins, this looks a little like deja vu.
ROLLINS: I couldn't be happier. No offense to Senator Alexander, but I thought -- Trent Lott's been one of the most effective leaders, and he's also a friend of mine. We've missed his leadership. When he was ousted a couple of years ago with the heavy hand from the White House, Republicans have never been anywhere near as effective. He can count votes, he can get along with the other side, he can make the trains run on time. And I think this is one of the great comebacks. And I think the Senate will -- both sides will benefit from it.
DOBBS: All right.
Let's turn to the Democrats, so that you gentlemen can have your opportunity.
We haven't talked about this, obviously, before. Steny Hoyer, John Murtha, Nancy Pelosi. The Speaker of the House wants John Murtha.
Who's it going to be?
SHEINKOPF: Hard to guess today. The news out of "Roll Call" talking about Senator -- excuse me -- Congressman Murtha's comments, not helpful. The Speaker usually gets what the Speaker wants. But the Republicans will take some glee in watching the Democrats fighting amongst each other. They should take no glee. There's two years before this all gets decided out again.
DOBBS: Well, let me ask you, Robert Zimmerman, because...
ZIMMERMAN: Sure, don't leave me out of it.
DOBBS: ... within the blush of excitement over victory and the bipartisanship, they need a little bipartisanship it seems within the Democratic Party, because Murtha is quoted as saying by "Roll Call", "Even though I think it's total crap" -- referring to the ethics legislation...
ZIMMERMAN: Proposed by the Speaker.
DOBBS: ... by the Speaker. "Even though I think it's total crap, I'll vote for it and pass it because that's what Nancy wants." Boy.
ZIMMERMAN: Let me be very clear with you. Nancy Pelosi has been a leader for ethics reform. She's going to pass the most dramatic and most significant ethics reform in modern days in the Congress. And the reality with Jack Murtha...
DOBBS: But what did I ask you about John Murtha?
ZIMMERMAN: About John Murtha?
He's going to have to explain that to his colleagues, because his colleagues are committed to ethics reform. It's going to pass. And I don't think he distinguishes himself by that comment at all.
DOBBS: Does Steny Hoyer beat him out on that basis?
ZIMMERMAN: I predicted the midterm results accurately on your show. I mean, how much do I have to do in one month?
DOBBS: What have you done for us lately?
ZIMMERMAN: My feeling is Steny Hoyer. I think you have to respect...
DOBBS: That won't be good for the Speaker.
ZIMMERMAN: I don't agree. I respect Nancy Pelosi for her loyalty to her friend and former campaign manager, Jack Murtha.
(CROSSTALK)
ROLLINS: Let me just make an observation. And I say this with great respect for the Speaker. I've known the Speaker for a long period of time. I knew her when she was the California party chairman and I was running assembly races out there.
She's tough, she's come up through -- but the difference that's going to occur is there's a lot of very significant chairmen, who were chairmen, the John Dingells of the world and the Obeys, and they're going back in.
This is going to be a strong chairmanship. It's not going to be like Gingrich. So she's going to have to have someone to crack the whip.
DOBBS: I want to turn to -- just talking with you -- Ambassador John Bolton, obviously doing a good job by any standard as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fabulous job.
DOBBS: What happened to all of that bipartisanship, Lincoln Chafee and Joe Biden, trying to kill this nomination. They know they've got the votes to confirm him, but won't let him out of committee. What's wrong with you Democrats?
ZIMMERMAN: First of all, first things first, I'll be amongst many who will give Ambassador Bolton credit for his service in the U.N. But let's remember, it's the Republicans who don't have the votes to confirm him.
DOBBS: Well, they've got the votes to confirm him...
ZIMMERMAN: They don't have Lincoln Chafee...
DOBBS: ... on the floor. On the floor, not in committee.
What do you think?
ROLLINS: I think it's going to be very tough for him to be confirmed.
SHEINKOPF: I think it's going to be tough, but I think the president will go to the wall for him.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, thank you. We're over time.
ROLLINS: Thank you.
ZIMMERMAN: Thank you.
SHEINKOPF: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you, gentlemen.
Still ahead, the results of our polls. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll.
Overwhelming, 96 percent of you say it's not acceptable more than five years after September 11, that our ports of entry and borders are still not secure.
Time for one quick last e-mail.
Howard in Connecticut, referencing my article today on CNN.com, my commentary: "I, too, was born poor and am now comfortable, having lived the middle class American dream. I'm proud to be known as a "Lou Dobbs Populist!"
Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "War on the Middle Class." Go to CNN.com to get my thoughts on that issue.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Join us here tomorrow.
For all of us, good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer begins now -- Wolf.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com
