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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Defense Secretary Visits With U.S. Troops in Iraq; Presidential Pardon Sought For Border Patrol Agents
Aired December 21, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: Frontline soldiers tell Defense Secretary Robert Gates that they need more troops in Iraq. But their commanders are not convinced.
And a leading congressman in a last-minute effort to stop two Border Patrol agents from going to jail for shooting a Mexican drug smuggler -- all of that, and a great deal more, straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate, and opinion, for Thursday, December 21.
Live in New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.
Soldiers fighting insurgents in Iraq gave the new defense secretary a blunt message: They need more troops as soon as possible.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates did not say whether he supports the soldiers' plea for reinforcements. And one reason may be that most military commanders do not want to send additional troops to Iraq.
CNN's Jamie McIntyre is in the -- is the only network TV correspondent traveling with the secretary, and reports now from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERT GATES, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, why don't we get something to eat? And then we can sit down and have a conversation.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On his fourth day on the job, second in Iraq, America's new defense secretary invited a small group of 15 frontline troops to breakfast. While he didn't call it a surge, Gates asked a cross-section of soldiers what they thought about sending more troops into Baghdad.
To a man and a woman, they said, bring it on, just the opposite of what top commanders have advised until now.
Specialist Jason Glenn's response was typical.
SPECIALIST JASON GLENN, DEPLOYED TO IRAQ: I really think we need more troops. I really think we need more troops in Iraq. I'm just thinking that maybe, with more presence on the ground, more troops might be able to hold them off long enough to where we can actually get some of the Iraqis trained up strong, so that they can hold it themselves.
MCINTYRE: When Gates went around the room, there seemed to be general agreement: More would be better.
To surge or not to surge is the main question Gates is trying to resolve on his whirlwind visit, so the views of the grunts could carry considerable weight.
How do you say no when the troops you command say they need help?
GATES: They were not hesitant about giving it. I think, like -- like most people on the front lines in a battle, they would always like to have more forces.
MCINTYRE: General John Abizaid argued forcefully in recent months that pouring more U.S. troops into Baghdad would only slow Iraqi process.
Other commanders say, to surge for the sake of surging would do little but to run up the U.S. body count, while providing only temporary relief from the violence.
So, in meetings with the Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, and other members of his government, Gates wanted to find out what Iraq would do if the U.S. buys it more time with an infusion of fresh combat forces.
GATES: One of the strong messages that I received today was the desire of the Iraqi government to take a leadership role in addressing some of the challenges.
MCINTYRE: Following the meetings, Gates said no specific troop numbers were discussed, only broad concepts.
(on camera): Robert Gates told the troops he talked to here in Baghdad that he didn't return to public life to play politics. He told them he is looking for a package of new ways to do things that would include an increased focus on the economy and reconstruction, and, primarily, ensuring that the Iraqi government doesn't fail.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The war in Iraq is not the only urgent challenge facing Defense Secretary Gates. Among his other priorities, Gates must decide whether to recommend a permanent increase in the size of the Army and the Marine Corps.
Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Under pressure to quickly make recommendations to President Bush on how to fix the war in Iraq, Defense Secretary Robert Gates already is finding out, reality on the front line is different when you are in charge.
GATES: I think perhaps the study group was here a short enough time that, perhaps, we didn't have the opportunity to explore in the kind of depth I have today. What struck me today was the amount of planning, the amount of thinking, the amount of coordination that had gone on, on the Iraqi side.
STARR: First up, Gates must quickly decide whether he will overrule the Joint Chiefs and support a temporary increase in combat troops.
GENERAL GEORGE JOULWAN (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: I think you are going to see some decisions in the next 30 to 45 days on what needs to be done, in -- in terms of if there is going to be an increase.
STARR: Gates also has to shepherd a $100 billion war spending request through Congress this winter, and make plans to permanently increase the size of the Army and Marine Corps.
Plus, he has to recommend a new military team. John Abizaid, the top Middle East commander, retires in March. George Casey, the top general for Iraq, is also due to leave. Joint Chiefs chairman, General Peter Pace, may be replaced when his term is up in September.
While many credit Gates' managerial skills and good intentions, experts say the honeymoon, inevitably, will end.
COLONEL DOUG MACGREGOR (RET.), U.S. ARMY: This is analogous to being assigned as the captain of the Titanic long after it has struck the iceberg and begun to sink.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: And, Kitty, if all of that about Iraq wasn't enough, Mr. Gates is also expressing his concern that progress in Afghanistan may be at risk -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: He certainly has a very heavy burden.
Thanks very much, Barbara Starr.
Well, insurgents in Iraq have killed three more of our troops, two soldiers, one Marine. Sixty-nine of our troops have been killed or have died in the war this month alone; 2,958 troops have been killed or have died since this war began; 22,401 troops have been wounded, 10,050 of them so seriously, they could not return to duty within three days.
And at least 17 Iraqis were killed in a car bomb attack in Baghdad today. Police also found the bodies of 38 other Iraqis. They were all apparently victims of sectarian murders.
The Marine Corps today charged eight Marines in connection with the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha last year. Four of the Marines were charged with murder. Four other Marines, all officers, face charged of failing to investigate and report the deaths. It's one of the biggest cases of misconduct by U.S. troops against Iraqi civilians in the entire war.
Senator John Kerry says increasing the number of U.S. troops in Iraq will do nothing to end the violence. Senator Kerry made his comments in Syria, a country the United States says is a sponsor of terrorism. Senator Kerry is just one of several Democratic senators who have visited Damascus lately.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Three Democratic senators -- this week, John Kerry and Christopher Dodd -- last week, Bill Nelson -- went to Damascus to meet with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and other Syrian officials, over White House objections.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have discouraged members of Congress from doing this.
SCHNEIDER: The Democrats got political cover from the Iraq Study Group report, which recommended that the U.S. negotiate with Syria and Iran for a specific reason: They can help resolve the situation in Iraq.
The public strongly favors negotiations with Iran and Syria, even though they have no illusions about either country. Most Americans consider Syria either unfriendly or an enemy of the United States. They're not sure which. Nearly half the public considers Iran an enemy -- not a surprise, then, that the Democrats showed up in Damascus and not Tehran.
President Bush made it clear that, when it comes to Iran, the U.S. has other priorities besides what they can do in Iraq.
GEORGE BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If they verifiably suspend that they have stopped enrichment, we will come to the table.
SCHNEIDER: Same with Syria -- other priorities.
BUSH: They have got to leave the democrat Lebanon alone.
SCHNEIDER: It comes down to priorities. The Iraq Study Group had one big priority: resolving the situation in Iraq. If Iran and Syria can help, why not bring them in?
Talking to an enemy is not appeasement, study group co-chairman James Baker said.
Democrats have one big priority -- resolving the situation in Iraq. President Assad indicated that he was willing to seek common ground and explore issues of mutual interest, Kerry and Dodd said, after meeting with the Syrian president.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Why is the public open to negotiations with countries it doesn't like or trust? Because Americans have one big priority: resolving the situation in Iraq -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Schneider.
Well, the president of Iran today suffered a political setback, as voters there rejected his radical Islamist policies. Local election results show opposition parties want a majority of seats across Iran. But Ahmadinejad's domestic trouble hasn't stopped him from criticizing his favorite target, the United States.
Aneesh Raman reports from Tehran -- Aneesh.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, good evening.
Iran's president defiant as ever today, pointing his criticism, as he has done before, directly at President Bush.
(voice-over): Never mincing words when it comes to George Bush, Iran's president Thursday offered some unsolicited advice, telling crowds that Bush should -- quote -- "Step out of your glass palace and go to your people to see how isolated you are, not only across the world, but also in your own country."
Ahmadinejad went on to say -- quote -- "I am sure that the American people would treat Mr. Bush as the Indonesian people treated him" -- that a reference to protests that greeted President Bush on his recent visit to Muslim-majority Indonesia.
In the past few days, Ahmadinejad hasn't missed a defiant step, a bit surprising considering the stinging defeat his hard-line conservative allies just suffered in city council elections held nationwide -- their dominance of Iranian politics since 2003 suddenly in jeopardy, with majority power, at the local level, anyway, shifting to moderates and reformists.
The elections were seen as a referendum on Ahmadinejad and his perceived neglect of domestic issues, like the economy, which is why the results are significant, and why leading reformists, like former Vice President Masoumeh Ebtekar, are now optimistic.
MASOUMEH EBTEKAR, FORMER IRANIAN VICE PRESIDENT: It indicates a strong tendency towards reformist policies and reformist candidates. And this is a new hope.
RAMAN: A new hope, but don't expect dramatic change just yet. The reason? City councils don't directly affect the president's policies. And, when it comes to his defiance of the West, especially on the nuclear front, there is, across all parties, near-uniform support. Still, the biggest test of how far Ahmadinejad is willing to go could come any day now, when, nearly five months after ordering Iran to stop its uranium enrichment, the U.N. is set to vote on possible penalties.
(on camera): Iran has said all along that, if the U.N. imposes sanctions over its nuclear program, it could kick out IAEA inspectors, and pursue its nuclear ambitions in secret -- Kitty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Aneesh Raman reporting from Tehran.
Talks on ending North Korea's nuclear weapons program have stalled. Now, officials say it's unlikely there will be any progress before the talks break up tomorrow.
Chief U.S. negotiator Christopher Hill said, the United States will not agree to any deal that allows North Korea to pretend that it has disarmed.
Still to come: a new attempt to win a presidential pardon for two Border Patrol agents who shot a Mexican drug smuggler. Supporters say the agents were simply doing their job.
Also: fury tonight over a congressman who strongly criticized the election of the first Muslim to Congress.
And new outrage over the behavior of President Clinton's national security adviser, Sandy Berger, who stole secret documents from the National Archive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: More congressional support tonight for the two Border Patrol agents who received harsh sentences for shooting and wounding a Mexican drug dealer.
Several congressmen want President Bush to pardon the two men. And the Border Patrol agents are set to begin their jail sentences next month.
Casey Wian reports from Santa Ana, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In less than a month, former Border Patrol agent Jose Compean is scheduled to begin serving more than a decade in prison. He and fellow agent Ignacio Ramos were convicted of shooting and wounding an illegal alien Mexican drug smuggler near Fabens, Texas, last year.
GEORGE MCCUBBIN, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: They did what we are supposed to do, what we're sworn to do as officers. And now they are looking at something that is just unbelievable. WIAN: The smuggler received immunity from federal prosecutors, who threw the book at the agents, claiming they failed to report the shooting and violated the drug smuggler's civil rights.
Now there's mounting pressure on the Bush administration to pardon the two agents. Scores of lawmakers have joined the cause, including Orange County California Republican Dana Rohrabacher, who is spearheading efforts to secure a pardon from the president.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: He will be defining himself, his own character, if he permits these two brave defenders of America to be destroyed, and their families to be destroyed. He needs to give them a pardon to prove to us that he himself is a moral man, and actually does support those people who defend our country.
JOSE COMPEAN, BORDER PATROL AGENT: On behalf of agent Ramos and myself, I want to thank everyone for their support. It's been overwhelming, especially when you consider what we went through at the beginning, where we were basically alone. We didn't have anyone.
WIAN: The activist group Grassfire presented more than 150,000 petitions demanding a pardon for the agents. Grassfire also says, the White House, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and others have been flooded with 15,000 faxes.
JOHN MARCH, SPOKESPERSON, GRASSFIRE: Our president needs to act. Our Congress needs to act. And the U.S. attorney that prosecuted this needs to be investigated.
WIAN: Compean, meanwhile, is only weeks away from beginning his 12-year sentence and separation from his wife and three children.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: During today's rally, Congressman Rohrabacher's office received a lengthy response from the White House.
Among its claims, the White House says, while the sentence may -- the sentences of the two agents may seem harsh, the agents, in the White House's view, used excessive force. And the White House says they received a fair trial -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Well, that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. We would like to know what you think. Do you think President Bush should pardon Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We will bring the results a little bit later in the broadcast.
A group supporting illegal aliens tonight compared last week's immigration raids at meatpacking plants around the country to the Nazi persecution of the Jews in the 1930s.
Activist Carla Vela said, "This reminds me of when Hitler began rounding up the Jews for no reason and started locking them up." Rosa Rosales, president of the League of United Latin-American Citizens, said: "We are demanding an end to these immigration raids, where they are targeting brown faces."
Now, the group sent letters to Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, urging the raids to be halted.
And, in a related development, the company raided by immigration agents is hiring replacement workers. The union representing workers at Swift & Company plants say that fewer Hispanics are among the replacements.
Well, it is the broadest state effort to date to track down illegal aliens. On January 1, Georgia will begin implementing a set of laws aimed at solving the state's illegal alien crisis. Georgia hopes to succeed where the federal government has failed.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Georgia has the fastest growing population of illegal aliens of any state in the country. It's estimated that there are nearly half-a-million illegal immigrants in the state.
CHIP ROGERS (R), GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: When the federal government fails to do their job and enforcing our borders, it really has a bigger impact on the states, when you think about it, because it's the states who have to pay for education. It's the states who have to pay for law enforcement.
TUCKER: In an attempt to come to terms with those problems, the state of Georgia is instituting new laws. Beginning January 1, a non- citizen receiving social benefits will have to verify that they are in the country legally.
Likewise, employers, contractors, subcontractors, any business doing business with the state will be required to prove their employees are legally allowed to work. All suspects arrested for a crime will have their immigration status checked, along with checking for outstanding warrants. And illegal aliens will no longer be eligible for in-state tuition rates at Georgia colleges and universities.
D.A. KING, ACTIVIST: The easy way to look at Senate Bill 529 here in Georgia, which is not a law, is to just understand that it does nothing more or less than mirror the language and the intent of existing federal law.
TUCKER: The bill is the broadest effort to date by a state aimed at dealing with illegal immigration. But it is only part of a broader trend.
ROY BECK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NUMBERSUSA: What is happening across the country -- and Georgia is the largest patch in this -- is a growing patchwork of local and state governments, who are saying, you know, if the federal government won't enforce federal laws, we will.
TUCKER: Georgia's bill passed overwhelmingly, by a greater than 2-1 margin, in the legislature.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now, so far, the state of Georgia has not had to deal with the common problem faced by local governments when they try to crack down on illegal immigration. Kitty, there has been no threatened lawsuits by the American Civil Liberties Union, at least not yet.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
Well, Mexico's new president is already meddling in U.S. affairs. President Felipe Calderon promises to defend the rights of illegal aliens in the United States. On a visit to Nogales, just across the border from Arizona, Calderon greeted Mexicans returning for the holidays. And he said that fees paid to Mexican consultants will be used to pay for defending Mexicans' rights in the United States.
Calderon also said that his administration will focus on creating jobs that will keep Mexicans in Mexico.
Coming up: outrage over some inflammatory comments from a Virginia congressman about a Muslim lawmaker. We will have a report on that.
Also: More troops to Iraq, two former high-ranking military commanders will tell us if they think it's a good idea.
And the first day of winter, it hits Denver very hard. A major blizzard shuts down airports and strands thousands. We will have the details.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: There's outrage from Muslim Americans and Democrats tonight over comments made by a congressman from Virginia.
In a letter to voters, Congressman Virgil Goode warned that the election of the first Muslim to Congress poses a serious threat to the nation.
Brian Todd reports from Rocky Mount, Virginia -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, Congressman Virgil Goode is pretty unrepentant at this hour.
He -- we spoke to just him a few minutes ago here at his home -- one of his districts in Rocky Mount, Virginia. This all traces back to a letter the congressman wrote to a constituent a couple of weeks ago. This was regarding an incoming member of Congress, Keith Ellison, a Muslim from Minnesota, who wants to use the Koran in his unofficial swearing-in, in January. He is the first Muslim elected to Congress.
And Goode's constituents apparently had concerns about this.
This is what Goode wrote back to them two weeks ago -- quote -- "I do not subscribe to using the Koran in any way. The Muslim representative from Minnesota was elected by the voters of that district. And, if American citizens don't wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration, there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran."
Now, Mr. Goode, as we said a moment ago, is not repentant at all. He said he is not going to apologize for that letter.
We pressed him at a news conference just a short time ago on whether he favors Mr. Ellison being able to use the Koran. He had danced around that. We pressed him on it.
Here's our exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. VIRGIL GOODE JR. (R), VIRGINIA: A Muslim student came to my office a few years ago. And on the wall in the office are the Ten Commandments, and "In God We Trust."
And he said, "Well, you don't have anything about the Koran on your office."
And my response was clear. "As long as I have the honor and privilege of representing the citizens of the 5th District of Virginia, there's not going to be anything about the Koran on the wall of my office."
QUESTION: But to clarify, sir, do you favor or oppose Mr. Ellison using the Koran...
(CROSSTALK)
GOODE: That's a decision that the voters of that district in Minnesota made when they elected whomever they elected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Now, that "whomever" actually spoke to Wolf Blitzer a short time ago.
Incoming Representative Keith Ellison, asked about Mr. Goode's comments, here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SITUATION ROOM")
KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA CONGRESSMAN-ELECT: My reaction, externally and internally, is the same. I can honestly say that I'm not angered by Mr. -- by Representative Goode's comments. I just think it's a learning gap we have to close. And, you know, it's true that I do find my ancestral roots back in Natchitoches, Louisiana, Cane River, Louisiana, 1742. I go back -- I'm about as American as they come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Other Muslim Americans had a little bit more of a blistering reaction.
We spoke to the executive director of the Council on American- Islamic Relations, Mr. Nihad Awad. He said he is shocked and very disturbed by Mr. Goode's comments. They are calling on the House Republican leadership to repudiate Mr. Goode's comments.
We have been trying all day to reach the offices of outgoing House Speaker Dennis Hastert and outgoing House Majority Leader John Boehner. Their press secretaries have not yet gotten back to us -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Brian Todd.
Coming up: A state of emergency is declared in one state because of a blizzard moving across the nation's midsection. We will have the latest on that.
Also: new revelations about how former Clinton adviser Sandy Berger hid classified documents that he stole from the National Archive.
And the Bush administration may send thousands more of our troops to Iraq. And we will ask two former military commanders what they think of that.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now our top stories: The new defense secretary, Robert Gates, today received some blunt advice from our soldiers in Iraq. The soldiers told Gates they need reinforcements as soon as possible.
A major political setback for the anti-American president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The president's opponents have won nationwide elections for local councils. That's amid rising discontent over his rule.
And Congressman Dana Rohrabacher today made a last minute attempt to prevent two Border Patrol agents from going to jail. The agents were convicted of shooting a Mexican drug smuggler. The smuggler was given immunity by federal prosecutors.
In other important stories tonight, the governor of Colorado has declared a state of emergency because of a powerful winter storm. Denver, Colorado has been virtually paralyzed by up to two feet of snow. The airport there was closed yesterday. It may not he reopen until tomorrow. Now, this airport is a major hub for United Airlines. The problems are having a ripple effect on travelers nationwide. Bus and train service was suspending in eastern Colorado also. Some highways were so buried that even the mail could not get through.
And travel has also been disrupted in England. Dense fog grounded many flights at London's Heathrow Airport, and that left thousands of people scrambling to find other ways to reach their holiday destinations.
An autopsy shows that the climber whose body was recovered from Oregon's Mt. Hood died of hypothermia. Now, the body of Kelly James was discovered in a snow cave on Sunday. He and two other climbers ascended the mountain nearly two weeks ago. The search for his companions was called off yesterday amid doubts about their survival, and also bad weather.
Military commanders tonight appear to be divided over a possible increase in U.S. troop strength in Iraq. The Bush administration is considering sending as many as 40,000 additional troops, but top military officers say the extra troops will make it harder for the Iraqis to take the responsibility for their own security.
Joining me now are two of the country's most distinguished former military commanders. We have General Paul Eaton, who is responsible for training Iraq security forces. And we have Colonel Thomas Hammes, who served in Iraq two years ago. And they both join us this evening to give us their assessment of the current plans in Iraq.
The Iraqi government today -- I wanted to get to this first, because it's a really new development. The Iraqi government today announced it has a new security plan for Baghdad, and some of the details are sort of intriguing. It's going to really allow the Iraqi commanders to mobilize troops and to launch operations without a multi-national say-so.
And it also is going to put more Iraqi troops in a swifter mobilization and more of a decision-making mode. What do you think of this new approach?
And let's start with you General Eaton.
MAJ. GEN. PAUL EATON, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Hey, Kitty, great to be with you tonight. Great initiative on the part of the Iraqi government and on the part of the prime minister to put his troops in lead.
And I very much expect that he will see the concentration of troops that has been missing in the past, inadequate in the past, but to apply a greater concentration of his forces in Baghdad to provide an overwhelming presence.
PILGRIM: Colonel Hammes?
COL. THOMAS HAMMES, U.S. MARINE CORPS (RET.): I think it's a positive step but we are going to have to back him. We are three years into the war and we still haven't brought the Iraqi army decent equipment. But then, for that matter, we still have failed to provide the American forces with all the equipment they need. And that's been one of the major problems. The administration has not yet put the Pentagon on a war-time footing.
PILGRIM: In terms of the Iraqi sort of plans, they do expect to put sort of explosive detection around the perimeter of Baghdad and have 100 more experts. These car bombs are really the thing that -- and these devises that explode in the roadways are really the problem there for American troops.
Do you think that would help, General Eaton?
EATON: Any time you go into an environment, any operation, you isolate the objective. And by isolating the objective, you control what comes in and out and you control the nature of what comes in and out. So any effort to deny the application of explosives into the Baghdad environment will serve the security of Baghdad, which is really the main effort and has to be the focal point for security forces in Iraq right now.
PILGRIM: Colonel?
HAMMES: Again, like General Eaton said, it's essential to control what comes in and out. The 200 explosives experts, I presume, are EOD-type technicians who can diffuse the devices if they're found. Obviously, that's been the major transformational weapon of this war has been the suicide bomber. Anything they can do to get on top of that is going to be a help.
PILGRIM: The new defense secretary is there, Secretary Gates. And let's listen to something he had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The Iraqi government is determined to improve the security of the people here in Iraq and, above all, here in Baghdad. And much of our discussion today was focused on how the United States can be helpful in the Iraqi government's efforts to accomplish that goal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: This whole debate over troop levels, how does that factor into this?
HAMMES: Well, I think the troop level is not as important as a strategy and getting serious, putting the Pentagon, as I said, on a wartime footing. Just adding troops is not an answer. You've got to have a coherent strategy then back it with resources and make it a priority. Do it now, don't use a peace time process.
PILGRIM: Colonel (sic) Eaton?
EATON: Colonel Hammes is on target. The coherent strategy really has to get after the Iraqi security forces. We have alluded that we have been inadequate in our efforts to equip them and to apply the right personnel to assist them.
If we're going to increase troop strength, those extra soldiers, those new formations, need to be embedded into Iraqi formations to work side by side to secure the environment, secure the neighborhoods of Baghdad.
PILGRIM: You know, the president has a tough Christmas. He is also putting off decisions about Iraq, he said until the new defense secretary of defense gets up to speed, as he put it. And, also, he has got a lot of information coming in right now and he wanted to take time until after the holidays to suggest a new strategy. Here's what he had to say about the size of the army and the increases.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The reason why I'm inclined to believe this is a good idea is because I understand that we're going to be in a long struggle against radicals and extremists and we must make sure that our military has the capability to stay in the fight for a long period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: So he has a lot more than Iraq on his plate.
General Eaton, what do you think about increasing troop size?
EATON: Kitty, we are long overdue to meet -- to have the Department of Defense and to have the United States Army and the ground forces, Marines, meet the foreign policy objectives of the nation.
We are conservatively 50,000 to 60,000 soldiers, five light infantry divisions, in other words, short of the end strength requirements to meet the foreign policy objectives of our nation and these are justified foreign policy objectives against this fight on terror.
PILGRIM: Colonel Hammes, last word on that?
HAMMES: The president has said we are in a generations-long war against a very tough enemy, and yet for three years we haven't done anything to reinforce the people who are fighting the war, the ground combat elements. It's three years overdue, but it's welcome now. We need to get on with it.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much for your very expert assessment on this situation and merry Christmas to you both. General Paul Eaton and Colonel Thomas Hammes, thank you.
EATON: Kitty, thank you very much.
HAMMES: Merry Christmas, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Coming up, you may know that former Clinton adviser Sandy Berger lifted classified documents about a terrorist plot, but it's just been revealed what he did with them. We will tell you.
Plus, a new front may be opening up on the war on terror. Radical Islamist separatist in one country are borrowing tactics from insurgents in Iraq.
And one state has a new constitutional amendment banning affirmative action-based admissions in public education. But several universities may not have to follow the new rules, and our guest tonight thinks this is outrageous. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: There are new details tonight of the outrageous behavior of former Clinton national security adviser Sandy Berger. It's already been reported that Berger took highly classified documents without authorization from the National Archive. Well, now it has emerged that Berger hid some of those documents under a trailer.
Kelli Arena has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former national security adviser Sandy Berger in July 2004:
SANDY BERGER, FMR. NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: When I was in the archives looking -- reviewing documents, I made an honest mistake. It is one that I deeply regret.
ARENA: That was before he pled guilty to mishandling classified documents. But, boy, mishandling doesn't begin to describe his actions detailed in a report by the National Archives inspector general just made public.
CHRIS FIELD, MSN. EDITOR, HUMAN EVENTS: It's just outrageous the extent of the deception, from, you know, shock and amazement somebody from the Clinton administration coming up with this level of deception.
ARENA: In 2003, Berger snuck papers out of the archives building, all of them describing the Clinton administration's reaction to a terrorist plot to attack in 2000.
He was preparing to testify before the 9/11 Commission and anticipating tough questions about the Clinton White House's handling of terror.
In an interview the Archives inspector general, Berger explained how he got away with the papers.
(on camera): He says he walked out of the National Archives building with the documents stuffed in his pocket. It was dark and he headed this way. He looked up and down the street and then back at the windows of the National Archives building, then at the Department of Justice, which just happens to be across the street. There was some construction going on right about here. Berger says that he went through the security fence. And he placed the documents under a construction frailer. Then he made his way back into the building to continue his work.
FIELD: He took classified documents out. And didn't just take out classified documents, but stuck them in the dirt under a construction trailer. I think that's probably the most outrageous.
ARENA (voice-over): When Berger got the documents home, he cut three of them into small pieces and put them in the trash. Two days later when he was confronted about the missing documents, he says he tried to find the trash collector but had no luck.
At first Berger said he must have removed the documents accidentally or inadvertently. Later on he came clean.
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: If it happened to them or anybody else, they would not have gotten away with this without spending some serious time in jail.
ARENA: In a statement, Berger's lawyers say he considers this matter closed and is pleased to have moved on. But the image of a senior public servant stuffing papers under a trailer could stick with him for life.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: National security officials in the Bush administration are becoming increasingly concerned about the spread of radical Islamist terrorism in southeast Asia. Terrorists in Thailand are killing an average of two people each and every day.
Dan Rivers reports from southern Thailand.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Thailand's southern border is the most terror-ridden corner of southeast Asia. Constant attacks, bombings, shootings and murders happen almost every day.
More than 1,700 people have been killed since 2004 by a shadowy group of Islamist separatists fighting the predominantly Buddhist government in Thailand.
Multiple bomb blasts at unprotected targets like banks are crippling the region. The explosions are accompanied by letters full of Jibril rhetoric. Investigators say they suggest the terrorists are becoming more radical.
(on camera): And some experts are worried that this local complex could be internationalized by extremists who want to make southern Thailand the next big battleground between the West and Islam. (voice-over): American-made gums, Humvees and helicopters all adding to the psychological resonance with Iraq.
Thailand's army commander, a Muslim himself, reluctantly admits the Middle East may be having an effect.
GEN. SONTHI BOONYARATGLIN, THAI ARMY COMMANDER (translated): There might be some effect on the juveniles that may have some results in the ideology and thinking to be more aggressive.
RIVERS: And just like in Iraq most victims of the violence here are Muslim, accused of collaboration for working in government institutions. Killing that's getting worse. Only two million people live in Thailand's southern border provinces, yet staggeringly, almost two a day are being killed in this viscous insurgency.
Dan Rivers CNN, southern Thailand.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Time now for some of your thoughts.
John wrote to us from New Jersey: "How interesting that a day after the crackdown the Swift & Co. plant by ICE people were lined up out the door to apply for the vacancies... So much for the rhetoric 'jobs Americans won't do'."
And Dick in Delaware wrote to us: "Have we as a government sunk so low as to prosecute two Border Patrol agents for shooting a drug dealer illegally crossing our border? What has happened to our justice system?"
And Karri in California writes: "We have less than a month to go before the Border Patrol agents are taken away from their wives and kids to go to jail for over ten years. All I want for Christmas is a pardon for these heroes. These men risked their lives for America."
E-mail us at LouDobbs.com and we will have more of your thoughts a little bit later in the broadcast. And each of you whose e-mail is read here will receive a copy of Lou's best-selling new book, "War on the Middle Class."
Coming up, a battle over affirmative action college admissions is headed back to court.
And our guest tonight is prepared to go all the way to the Supreme Court.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Michigan residents voted to amend their constitution in November to ban the use of affirmative action in college admissions. Now, that ban was supposed to go into effect this weekend. But a federal court has granted a delay for the state's universities until July 1st.
And our guest tonight says there's absolutely no reason for the delay and has filed an emergency appeal.
Terry Pell is president for the Center of the for Individual Rights and he joins us from Washington.
And thanks very much for joining us.
TERRY PELL, PRES., CTR. FOR INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS: Thanks for having me.
PILGRIM: You know, I -- this passed. It was Proposition Two. Voters approved it 58 to 42 percent. So it passed by a pretty good margin.
And now you have a judge delaying the implementation of it. How can he do that?
PELL: Well, that's a good question. He has no authority to do it. What happened here was that shortly after Proposition Two passed, the president of the University of Michigan vowed to stop it at all costs. And one of the things she said was she was going to do was go into federal court and get a one-year extension.
Well, earlier this week the state attorney general brokered an agreement with the university president and the governor and other parties in the case to -- they just agreed to delay this for a year. And they got a federal judge to sign off on it.
So now what this means is that students applying to Michigan universities this year will not get the benefit of the new law, even though it was supposed to take effect December 22nd.
PILGRIM: So affirmative action will play into this year's admissions decisions.
Let's actually read what the amendment says, so our viewers know.
It is to "ban public institutions from using affirmative action programs that give preferential treatment to groups or individuals based on their race, gender, color, ethnicity or national origin for public employment, education or contracting purposes."
Now, critics of say that it really does limit diversity at state colleges and universities. What have you to say to that?
PELL: Well, this is not about diversity. It's about one means used to achieve diversity, namely the use of racial double standards or racial preferences in college admissions and government contracting.
You can have diversity. But you don't need race preferences to get diversity. And what the voters said and what most reasonable people think is diversity is a good thing, but you don't need race preferences to achieve diversity. PILGRIM: This proposition passed overwhelmingly. The colleges have basically tried to block this several times, haven't they?
PELL: That's right. They have said that they are going to get the one-year delay. They've also gone -- other allies of the university have gone into court and filed several lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of Proposition Two.
They want to get it struck down as violating the federal Constitution on the rather novel idea that race preferences are somehow required by the federal Constitution and that to take away preferential treatment violates the federal rights of minority applicants.
This argument has been rejected by other courts. And I have no doubt it will be rejected here. What we're seeing is a last-ditch effort to prevent Proposition Two from taking place at all costs.
PILGRIM: This affects about 15 percent of applications, doesn't it?
PELL: No, that's right. We're not talking about creating a new admissions system. We're talking about eliminating one factor that plays a role in maybe 15 percent of the applications. The universities have known about Proposition Two for at least a year. And they have had -- it should be a straight forward operation at this point to reread the handful of applications where race played a role and give them a second ride. That's all that it would take to comply with the law.
PILGRIM: But to ask for a delay -- I mean, isn't it impractical to ask the colleges in the middle of their admissions cycle to reverse the criteria?
PELL: No. We're at the beginning of the admissions cycle here. And, as I said, race plays a role in maybe 15 percent of the applications. So it should be -- should have been a straight forward thing to simply look at those applications a second time and decide whether the applicant would have been admitted without regard to race.
That's what the voters told the universities they wanted and there's no reason on earth why the universities couldn't have done that by the deadline. But instead, as I said, they went to court to try to stop it.
PILGRIM: The way, you know, you're outlining this, it does appear that there will be a considerable legal battle. And you have vowed to take it all the way to the Supreme Court. Do you think it will go that far?
PELL: It could very well. Our opponents are determined to take this to the Supreme Court and make it a test case. And we're determined to stop them.
PILGRIM: It certainly is a very big issue across the country for college admissions. So you're willing to go that distance do make it a test case?
PELL: Well, we aren't. It shouldn't be a test case. The law is clear here. And the Michigan voters were clear what they wanted. But our opponents have decided to spend millions of dollars trying to litigate this in the courts. And we're equally -- more determined, actually, to see that the will of the voters is given full expression here. So if our opponents take it to the Supreme Court, we will be there and we're ready for it.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much for explaining it all to us.
Terry Pell, president of the Center for Individual Rights.
Thank you, sir.
PELL: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Well, it should be noted that we did invite the ACLU to join us on the broadcast tonight to discuss this issue. But they did decline.
Coming up at the top of the hour, the SITUATION ROOM with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Kitty.
Thousands of Americans dead, billions of dollar spent, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice now saying the war in Iraq is worth the cost in blood and money.
And Laura Bush, the First Lady, speaking out about her skin cancer. She's explaining why she didn't go public sooner.
Also, is the Bush dynasty coming to an end? Find out why Jeb Bush, the outgoing governor of Florida, says he has no political future.
And fighting word. Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump trade some nasty insults over Miss USA. We'll find out why the real estate mogul is now threatening to sue.
All that, coming up right here in the SITUATION ROOM -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks, Wolf.
A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll.
Do you think that President Bush should pardon Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean?
Yes or know. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com.
We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
And still ahead, the results of tonight's poll, after you vote, of course, and more of your thoughts. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. Ninety-five percent of you think President Bush should pardon Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean.
A little bit more time for some of your thoughts.
Allan in Washington wrote to us: "The Swift & Co. raids point out the real reason we need to secure our borders: to stop corporations from eroding the middle class."
Dennis in Ohio: "There should be a class action lawsuit against every employer who hired illegal immigrants and another against the government for aiding and abetting criminal activity by refusing to enforce out laws."
Also, Ryan in New York wrote to us: "How in the heck does the U.S. government believe that its citizens can survive on $5.15 an hour. This number is a slap in the face of U.S. citizens.
And Phillip in California: "Success is up to Iraq and the people. It will depend on the number of troops, amounts of money we spend or all the good deeds we attempt. Sometimes the best way forward is to take a step back a really see where we are!"
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow.
For all of us here, good night from New York.
The SITUATION ROOM starts right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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