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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Justice Department Official Refuses to Testify; Senate Defeats Challenge to Withdrawal; Tony Snow's Cancer Returns
Aired March 27, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, outrage on Capitol Hill. Why is a top U.S. Department of Justice official refusing to testify before Congress? Congressmen are seething over that top Justice official's decision to take the Fifth Amendment in the investigation of the firing of eight U.S. attorneys. Does she have something to hide?
And tonight, a key vote in the U.S. on bringing our troops home from Iraq within one year.
And the FBI director also under attack in Congress for spying on American citizens, prying into telephone, e-mail and financial records. We'll have all of those reports and much more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Tuesday, March 27th.
Live from Yazoo City, Mississippi, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody, tonight from Yazoo City, Mississippi. I'm outside the federal prison here where one of two former Border Patrol agents is serving time for shooting and wounding an illegal Mexican drug smuggler. The Justice Department gave that drug smuggler immunity for his testimony against the Border Patrol agents.
We're here tonight trying to uncover the truth about this case, its investigation, the prosecution. Ahead this hour, I'll be talking with the imprisoned border agents' families and the man who prosecuted them, U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton.
We'll have much more in our special edition of this broadcast tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. We hope you'll join us for that. And we'll have much more later.
But first, here's Kitty Pilgrim in New York with the day's top news -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Lou.
Tonight, growing frustration and outrage in Congress over U.S. attorney firings. A top Justice Department official will take the Fifth before congressional investigators. Her lawyer says it's just a perjury trap for his client. The White House is standing by its threat to veto a deadline for withdrawing our troops from Iraq. There was a key vote in the Senate just moments ago on bringing them home within one year.
Dana Bash reports on the Justice official who refused to testify. And now Democratic senators are wondering if she has something to hide.
Suzanne Malveaux reports tonight on the White House's veto threat. And the Senate just voted against dropping a deadline from the plan to bring our troops home.
Kelli Arena reports on FBI Director Mueller's grilling by the Judiciary Committee for searching Americans' personal records without first going to a judge.
We begin with Dana Bash -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, the attorney general would not comment today on why one of his top aides to testify over at the White House, though they are casting as "unfortunate" that a public servant doesn't think that she will get fair treatment here in Congress. Democrats, though, say that they think that public servant is concealing something.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice-over): If a senior aide to the attorney general won't talk to Congress, Democrats say there must be something to hide.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: When a high-ranking official, either in the White House or Department of Justice, decides to take the Fifth Amendment, it's troubling. That, of course, is her constitutional right, but it raises the question, what conduct was she involved in that may have some criminal consequence?
BASH: Democrats are seizing on a comparison Monica Goodling's attorney made to former Cheney aide Scooter Libby.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: It's a little bit odd. In his letter, he speaks that she does not want to face the fate of Mr. Libby, or words to that effect.
Scooter Libby was convicted of perjury. He was convicted of obstruction of justice.
BASH: GOP senators say they don't blame Goodling for not wanting to testify, saying Democrats have already concluded Justice officials aren't telling the truth about why federal prosecutors are fired and want to use hearings for political gain.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE RANKING MEMBER: A hearing conducted by the Judiciary Committee ought to have at least, as I put it, a modicum of objectivity. As Goodling's lawyer complains -- and I understand why -- that the hearing lacks fundamental fairness. BASH: But, privately, Republican congressional sources tell CNN they do worry that a senior Justice Department official pleading the Fifth could make a big political problem even worse. And Bush allies are increasingly unsure if the attorney general can keep his job.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: This whole process has now become snakebit. That's a Texas term. But I think it's been prejudiced by the way that it's been handled. So, I think it makes it harder and harder for this to be sorted out. The attorney general's got the responsibility now to come up here, I think, and answer a lot of hard questions. And I think, in many ways, his future depends on how he handles that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: But the attorney general still is not slated to come here to Congress to testify for another three weeks. But meanwhile, Kitty, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee told us today perhaps they should consider giving immunity to Monica Goodling in order to allow her to come up here and testify without worrying about being prosecuted in terms of committing a crime. We asked her attorney whether they would even consider that. His response was, "No comment."
Kitty.
PILGRIM: Dana, another point. Senate Democrats had a surprise victory in the Senate this afternoon on their Iraq plan. Tell us a little bit about what happened.
BASH: Well, it was just a short while ago Senate Democrats were able to keep their plan which allows -- or actually calls for U.S. combat troops to come back from Iraq by next year, this time next year. That is now still part of the war funding bill that is making its way through the Senate.
Republicans failed in their bid to try to get that out, and it was a really narrow vote, Kitty. They just -- Democrats just managed to squeak this through by a couple of votes. And it is very different from what we saw just 12 days ago.
Just 12 days ago, Democrats were defeated on this very same question, whether or not there should be a timetable for withdrawal for U.S. combat troops to come out by March 31, 2008. Two senators switched their votes, one Democrat, one Republican. So that's what gave the Senate Democrats their first real victory on this timetable for a withdrawal since they've actually had the majority.
That, of course, they took three months ago, but it's short- lived. They know full well the president is going to veto this, and they don't have the votes to override it.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Dana Bash. Well, President Bush has, as Dana said, promised veto any bill that crosses his desk that includes a deadline for sending our troops home, so it looks like we're on the way towards a veto showdown.
Suzanne Malveaux reports on the reaction tonight from the White House -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, this really is a big symbolic blow to the White House. Symbolic. But to show you just how important symbolism is, there was really high drama here at the White House about 5:00 or so.
That is when the Republican leadership called up the vice president's office and said, look, the vote's going to be really tight, you need to get down here. He, being the president of the Senate, would cast that tie-breaking vote. So the motorcade sped off to the Hill.
He waited to cast that vote. Well, obviously, it wasn't necessary in the end because of that two-vote spread there. But it really does demonstrate just how important it is to win every single position here. But Dana Perino, the deputy press secretary, earlier today, perhaps anticipating this defeat, made it very clear that any Senate type of supplemental legislation that included a timetable for withdrawing troops would automatically be vetoed by the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA PERINO, DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: "The administration strong opposes the Senate bill. The legislation would substitute congressional mandates for the considered judgment of our military commanders. The bill assumes and forces the failure of the new strategy even before American commanders in the field are able to fully implement their plans. Regardless of the success our troops are achieving in the field, this bill would require their withdrawal."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: And Kitty, as you know, obviously, the House and the Senate would have to work out their own legislation before presenting it to the president, but already that pledge of a veto from the Bush administration. And they're taking some comfort in realizing that this legislation so far is veto-proof.
If they start to see Republicans turning on the other side, heading towards the Democratic side, then there is going to be real concern here. But so far, they feel that they have, at least for now, rather limited that kind of victory on the Democratic side.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Suzanne Malveaux.
Oh, Suzanne, one more point, though. Disturbing news today at the White House about Tony Snow, correct?
MALVEAUX: Oh, that's right. Very sad news, actually.
Tony Snow alerting his staff, all of us here, that his cancer has returned. He is a colon cancer survivor. For the last two years or so he had a serious bout with colon cancer. That cancer, we are told, has spread, attached to the liver.
He is going to be undergoing chemotherapy, perhaps additional treatment. In the meantime, Dana Perino is going to be taking his place. We are told he is optimistic, that he is resolved, but clearly, a very difficult time for the White House and for his family -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Well, we certainly wish him well.
Thanks very much.
Suzanne Malveaux.
Today the head of the FBI faced senators and tried to convince them that the bureau will follow the rules set out in the Patriot Act, even though it's already bent them. Now, the issue is the power to search people's bank, phone, and e-mail records in the hunt for terrorists.
Kelli Arena has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The message to FBI Director Robert Mueller was crystal clear.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA), RANKING MEMBER, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The question arises as to whether any director can handle the job. And the further question arises as to whether the bureau itself can handle the job.
ARENA: The job, fighting the war on terror, and the FBI's free hand is getting slapped.
The anger is over the FBI's so-called national security letters used to get bank, phone and Internet records without first going to a judge. A Justice Department audit released this month concluded that FBI agents misused those letters, way overstepping their authority.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: This patter of abuse of authority and mismanagement causes me and many others on both sides of the aisle to wonder whether the FBI and Department of Justice have been faithful trustees of the great trust that the Congress and American people have placed in them.
ARENA: Mueller tried to convince senators to let him keep using security letters, calling them essential in the war on terror. He says he will do better to make sure they're not abused.
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: I am responsible for those shortcomings, and I am also responsible for taking the steps to ensure that they do not happen again.
ARENA: But Mueller is fighting waves of bad publicity about the FBI overreaching its bounds. Just today, "The Washington Post" reported FBI agents provided inaccurate data to obtain surveillance warrants in terrorism and espionage cases. Another problem, another promise to fix it, and an explanation that the warrant applications are very long and contain thousands of facts.
It didn't wash.
SPECTER: I'm not impressed by your assertion that there are thousands of facts. That's your job.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: So here's the question. If the FBI can't handle the job of going after terrorists without going too far, who can? Well, one old idea that's cropping up again is to set up a separate domestic intelligence agency like Britain's MI5 -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Kelli Arena.
Coming up, America's huge show of force just miles off the coast of Iran. War games or a clear message to Tehran?
Scandal at the Smithsonian, where the top man has just quit in disgrace over his $900,000 federal salary. Another battle in the war on the middle class.
And join Lou Dobbs at 8:00 p.m. Eastern tonight for a special edition, "Border Betrayal". He's live at federal prison in Yazoo City, Mississippi, where one of those two Border Patrol agents is serving time for shooting a Mexican drug smuggler.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: At least 70 people were killed in attacks across Iraq today. Sixty of them killed in separate truck and car bomb explosions. Now, the latest wave of violence comes as the new leader of the U.S. Central Command says there are signs of hope outside of Baghdad, and there is no civil war in Iraq.
Michael Ware joins us now from Baghdad with more -- Michael.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kitty.
We've heard from the new commander of Central Command telling us that, indeed, there is no civil war here in Iraq. Of course, that would be a revelation to many of the Iraqi citizens who live here and have been enduring this terrible bloodletting that's been under way for years now, and that we saw reach fever pitch after the bombing last February of the Golden Dome Mosque, one of the holiest shrines in Shia Islam.
Bodies are still showing up tortured and executed on the streets of the capital every morning, and whilst there is an American crackdown here in Baghdad, we've seen the violence and the death squads and the militias responsible for it all displacing around the capital. So, we're seeing just to the north of the city, in Diyala, violence spiking so much that commando forces in Iraq, General David Petraeus, had to rush a battalion of Stryker troops there.
And, of course, al Qaeda suicide bombers are still punching through all the defenses, both against U.S. troops. And, as we saw in the city of Tal Afar, near the Syrian border, they killed more than 50 people today alone -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Michael Ware. Michael Ware reporting from Baghdad.
Now, insurgents have killed two more of our troops in Iraq today. A Marine was killed at the Al Anbar Province, and a soldier was killed in the international zone. Seventy-eight of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month.
3,243 of our troops have been killed since this war began. 24,314 of our troops have been wounded, and 10,841 of them seriously.
Now, the U.S. is conducting its biggest show of force in the Persian Gulf since the invasion of Iraq in 2003. This comes just days after Iran seized 15 British sailors conducting maritime patrols in the Gulf. The Pentagon insists the two events are not related.
We have more from our CNN senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A Navy FA-18 flies out of the sun and on to the deck of the USS Eisenhower, one of two U.S. aircraft carriers now conducting high- profile air warfare exercises right off the coast of Iran. The decision to dispatch a second aircraft carrier to the Persian Gulf was made months ago, long before Iran's provocative capture of 15 British sailors and marines last week. But Pentagon sources tell CNN the decision to conduct the rare dual exercise with two carriers, 100 warplanes, and more than a dozen escort ships, was ordered just this week to make a show of resolve to Tehran.
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: They are watching what the United States and our coalition partners are doing, and will draw their own conclusions about the reliability of our word and the strength of our commitments.
MCINTYRE: While the Eisenhower and Stennis battle groups are practicing hunting submarines, sinking ships, and clearing mines, all things they would do in a war with Iran, the top U.S. commander for the region insists, with its hands full in Iraq, the U.S. is not spoiling for a fight.
ADM. WILLIAM FALLON, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We're not interested in a war. We've got a conflict going here that we've got lots of folks tied up trying to fix.
MCINTYRE: But the American armada is aimed at reassuring other gulf states the U.S. has the naval power to keep vital shipping lanes open. Jittery investors have already sent oil prices to a high for the year on fears that rising tensions could disrupt the 40 percent of the world's oil that flows through the Strait of Hormuz.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And Kitty, just to give you an idea how nervous that market is, oil prices briefly shot up today on a rumor that Iran had fired a missile at a U.S. warship. But we've checked with the U.S. Navy. That rumor is not true. All of the ships are safe and none have been fired at.
This exercise is only going to last another couple of days -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Jamie McIntyre.
Well, the standoff continues over the 15 British marines seized last Friday. A stern warning today from British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
Now, Blair says he is expected to move on to the "next phase" if diplomacy doesn't work. Now, he did not say if that means military action or the possible expulsion of Iranian diplomats. The 15 marines were captured while inspecting a merchant vessel in the Persian Gulf.
The ITT Corporation will plead guilty and pay $1 million fine for illegally selling secret military data to foreign countries. ITT is the leading manufacturer of military night vision equipment for U.S. armed forces. Federal prosecutors say the company sold classified information on defense equipment to China, Singapore and the United Kingdom.
ITT is the first contractor convicted of a criminal violation of the Arms Export Control Act.
Still ahead, will more cheap labor be allowed to come into the United States? We'll have a report on the House hearings on the controversial guest worker program.
While middle class Americans struggle to make ends meet, the head of the Smithsonian Institution is living high on the taxpayer dollar.
We'll have that story and more when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PILGRIM: Another startling example of the disconnect between the middle class and the elite in this country. The head of the world's largest museum and research institution, the Smithsonian, resigned after criticism of his excessive salary and extravagant perks. The U.S. Senate demanded his salary be slashed in half to $400,000. That's what the president of the United States earns.
As Lisa Sylvester explains, all of this was paid for by taxpayers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Lawrence Small's office was located in the Smithsonian castle, and he dressed it up fit for a king, paid for largely by taxpayers.
TOM SCHATZ, CITIZENS AGAINST GOVERNMENT WASTE: You've got $9,000 for a coffee table and credenza in his office, $105,000 for carpet. The kind of luxuries that a public institution like the Smithsonian shouldn't be approving.
SYLVESTER: The lavish spending was on top of the $915,000 the head of the Smithsonian collected in annual compensation. Small was ousted this week after an inspector general's report detailed the $273,000 in housekeeping services for his private home, including $2,500 just to clean a chandelier, $203,000 for maintenance, and $160,000 to redecorate his office.
Small and his wife also stayed at the deluxe Four Seasons resort in Hawaii during a visit to the Astrophysical Observatory. The cost of the room, $724 a night.
Seventy percent of the Smithsonian budget comes from the federal government.
SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: We ought to be outraged at the abuse of taxpayers' money or nonprofit money that was coming in by people spending so much on their own for their own benefit.
SYLVESTER: Senator Chuck Grassley says other salaries and perks at the Smithsonian should be reviewed. He is continuing to probe other nonprofits that receive significant sums from the government. The Smithsonian Board of Regents approved most of Small's spending, noting that during his seven years he raised more than $1 billion and would use his home for official events.
PATRICIA STONESIFER, SMITHSONIAN BOARD OF REGENTS: It's been a difficult few months, in some ways, for the Smithsonian, with lots of media attention and other issues swirling. But at the same time, we had record openings of museums, new levels of contribution, new levels of public attention.
SYLVESTER: At the same time Small was living the good life, some of the Smithsonian museums had leaky roofs that went unfixed.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SYLVESTER: And $90,000 spent by Lawrence Small was not approved by the board of regents. Senator Grassley says he thinks that Small should repay those expenses, as well as some others -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Lou Dobbs will head to Washington, D.C., tomorrow to testify before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. Now, Lou will be discussing the impact of U.S. trade policies on working men and women in this country, a subject we have, of course, covered extensively on this broadcast.
Now we turn to the subject of tonight's poll.
Do you believe that Alberto Gonzales should resign as U.S. attorney general? Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up, the families of Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean speak out. Lou talks to them about their tireless effort to free their loved ones from prison.
And the Real ID backlash, why dozens of states say they want the law repealed.
Then, Homeland Security says it's making progress on the illegal alien front, but it needs more money. We'll tell you how members of Congress responded to that request.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It's been nearly two years since the Real ID Act became law, passed in response to the September 11th terrorist attack. This law requires all states to adhere to a national standard for driver's licenses. Applicants, among other things, must prove their identity before receiving a license.
Now, two years later, however, dozens of states are fighting back, saying the Real ID Act is too costly and is a threat to our civil liberties.
Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): When it comes to the Real ID Act, many states can't or won't meet the new deadline of December 31, 2009. The act is a fundamentally simple idea that all applicants must prove their identity before they're issued driver's licenses, but there are currently bills pending in 25 states that are aimed at either outright repealing the Real ID Act or raising concerns about it, as tracked by the National Conference of State Legislatures. That's because, they say, Real ID is a simple idea with a complex reality.
DAVID QUAM, NATIONAL GOVERNORS ASSOC.: Under Real ID, all 50 states will have to change their systems. There is no state that is in compliance today, so this is going to affect everybody. We've got 245 million driver's license holders who, under the regulations, are going to have to come back in, in person, over the next five years.
TUCKER: Real ID, the governors say, requires electronic verification, and that of the five systems required under federal regulations, only one exists today. So, the states say, they are not even close to being ready to comply, and the Governors Association insists that it understands the importance of compliance as underlined by the 9/11 Commission.
JANICE KEPHART, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: Real ID is a 9/11 Commission recommendation for a reason, and it's a good thing for our national security, our economic security, and our public safety. All Americans are better off if their identities are more secure.
TUCKER: According to the National Governors Association, no governor wants to see Real ID repealed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: But they do complain that it's an unfunded mandate, meaning a set of mandatory rules from Washington handed down to the states to be followed without providing the funding. The states estimate the cost of Real ID to be somewhere around $11 billion, and they want Washington to start handing out some money along with the regulations.
PILGRIM: Money well spent for good security, Bill.
TUCKER: Indeed.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
Well, the Real ID act continues to face opposition in Congress. The Department of Homeland Security says it is making progress on another national security issue. Officials today told a congressional committee that they are doing a better job in removing illegal aliens from this country, but they need more money. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement told federal lawmakers the agency needs a 7 percent increase in funding, to more than $5 billion, to improve its efforts to apprehend and deport illegal aliens and crack down on their employers.
JULIE MYERS, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, ICE: Our efforts in the area of worksite enforcement have grown exponentially over the past year. Last year, we had 716 criminal arrests in worksite enforcement. Compare that to the last full year of the INS, where there were only 20 or 25 criminal arrests.
WIAN: ICE reported 190,000 fugitive illegal aliens last year, a 13 percent increase from the year before. Even so, a new report from the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Inspector General shows that as of last summer, the number of fugitive aliens loose in the United States continued to grow.
JIM TAYLOR, DEPUTY INSPECTOR GENERAL, DHS: Despite the efforts of fugitive operation teams, the backlog of fugitive apprehensions has actually increased from over 330,000 in September of 2001 to over 620,000 as of August 2006.
WIAN: The inspector general says that's the result of a resource shortage, and absence of clear policy guidelines, and ineffective technology. Myers defended ICE's recent performance, citing the addition of 6,000 new detention beds and the end of the practice of catching and releasing most non-Mexican illegal aliens.
One lawmaker was clearly agitated by ICE's newfound emphasis on enforcing immigration law.
REP. JOSE SERRANO (D), NEW YORK: To hear some of you folks, it sounds like this is the scum of the earth and we have to -- fugitive aliens? What the heck is that?
MYERS: With respect to who the fugitive aliens are, those are individuals who have already gone through the immigration process before an immigration judge. They've pleaded their case, and they've lost. They've been ordered to leave the country, and they failed to do so.
WIAN: Also appearing, the director of the Citizenship and Immigration Service, who says his agency could handle a guest worker program, even though it also has a backlog of about a million cases.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: ICE also wants more funding to enforce customs law. It was a key player in a story you mentioned earlier, Kitty, the bust of ITT for selling military technology to China. Today, ITT agreed to plead guilty and pay a $100 million fine in that case -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
The debate over illegal aliens is attracting attention on the campaign trail in some places you may not expect. Now, as Bill Schneider reports, Iowa may not be a haven for rallies and marches, but the people of Iowa certainly have their opinion about illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Why is illegal immigration such a big issue in Iowa? Well, for one thing, that's where the candidates are.
WILLIAM FREY, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: The immigration issue is something that brings to the fore what I would call a silent majority. These are people who weren't out rioting in the streets or being involved in marches a year ago, when we had all of this hoopla over that earlier immigration reform, but it touches a nerve with them.
SCHNEIDER: The new immigrants people see in Iowa are very different from the long, settled immigration populations in states like California and Arizona.
FREY: They are not really seeing people who are a cross-section of all the immigrants in the United States. They are seeing people who are disproportionately illegal, disproportionately less fluent in English, more likely to not be very well-educated.
SCHNEIDER: Illegal immigration is a big issue in the Republican campaign.
DAVID OMAN, FORMER IOWA REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIRMAN: It seems to have taken on a life of its own in the Republican caucus campaign.
SCHNEIDER: Democrats don't talk about immigration much. They don't want to offend either Latinos or the silent majority.
But all the major Republican candidates are taking a tougher line on illegal immigration, including John McCain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're from Arizona. And I don't think that I ever really heard you getting real serious about doing something about the immigration problem in Arizona.
SCHNEIDER: They are perfectly willing to give McCain a tough time.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: If you think that you can round up 12 million people and put them in jail, that's fine. I would be curious where you are going to build all those institutions to hold them. But the point is, the point is, Arizona, OK, thanks. Big state. I'm not amused.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Border states like Arizona and California have a bigger illegal immigration problem, but voters in those states are actually more divided on the issue because they are more likely to have long-time immigrants as friends and neighbors and co-workers -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Schneider. Interesting stuff.
We will have more on illegal immigration and the presidential campaign when we get together with our panel of radio talk show hosts. But now let's hand it over to Lou Dobbs -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you. We're reporting tonight from Yazoo City, Mississippi, outside the federal prison. We're here trying to get some answers about the prosecution and the imprisonment of two former Border Patrol agents, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. The Compean and Ramos families have been torn apart by these convictions. We'll hear from them next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Welcome back to Yazoo City, Mississippi. We're in front of the federal penitentiary. The penitentiary where former Border Patrol agent Ignacio Ramos is serving a 12-year sentence for the shooting of a Mexican drug smuggler, in the United States illegally.
Tonight, I'm joined by some of the family members of Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. Virginia Orwig is the mother of Ignacio Ramos. Jose Antonio Loya is the father-in-law of Ignacio Ramos. And from Irvine, California, Claudia Martinez, sister of Jose Compean, and Daniel Martinez, the brother-in-law of Jose.
I want to say, first of all, thank you all for joining us. We're going to have a lot more with the families of the Border Patrol agents here tonight.
Let me turn to you, and, first, ask what is this? Give us a sense of what this has been like for your family.
VIRGINIA ORWIG, MOTHER OF IGNACIO RAMOS: My son describes it as gut-wrenching. And for him, that means that it hurts him from the core of his soul, and to know that he has done his job to the best of his ability, and to find himself...
DOBBS: Joe, your thoughts? Your emotions?
JOSE ANTONIO LOYA, FATHER-IN-LAW OF IGNACIO RAMOS: Well, you know, Agent Ramos had been in the U.S. Navy Reserve for eight years before he joined the Border Patrol. He had done an excellent job with the Border Patrol for nine years. We feel a big betrayal by the U.S. government, by the Border Patrol, especially since he had been involved in approximately 100 drug busts and had never hurt anyone, had never shot anyone, had never even fired his weapon before. And we feel this is just the biggest miscarriage -- I know it's the biggest miscarriage of justice that I will ever see.
DOBBS: Claudia Martinez, let me ask you, Jose Compean has three children. What has it been like for them? * CLAUDIA MARTINEZ, SISTER OF JOSE COMPEAN: Oh, it's been difficult. The kids -- you know, how can we explain this to the kids? It's just been hard, because they -- we can't tell them that their daddy did anything wrong, because he didn't, and how do we explain that?
DOBBS: Daniel, how do you explain it? Can you explain it?
DANIEL MARTINEZ, BROTHER-IN-LAW OF JOSE COMPEAN: Yes, no. That's really tough to explain, you know, especially on the family side of things, you know, knowing that he had -- has kids that are not with him, you know, not able to see him every day is very hard, you know. It's something that unless you are actually experiencing it firsthand, there's no way to really explain.
DOBBS: What is your sense, both of you, as to how this is going to proceed? Are you hopeful that Ignacio and Jose will win on appeal? How do you feel about their prospects at this point?
C. MARTINEZ: Well, for me personally, I am very hopeful. We have good attorneys, and I have a lot of faith that the appeal is going to go our way, as it should, that the truth is going to come out and my brother is going to be able to come home to his family and his kids.
DOBBS: You know, Joe, let me ask you this, what do you say to your three grandsons, Ignacio's children, how do you explain their father being in prison, the circumstances?
LOYA: Well, we had them here two weeks ago. We brought them to visit my son-in-law, and it was very heart-breaking. Especially after we spent seven hours with him. And when we got ready to leave the prison, I don't think the two youngest ones, the 7- and the 9-year- old, realized that we were leaving without their father. And it was very emotional. It was very heart-breaking, because they wouldn't turn him loose. When the guards came to take him away back to his cell, the kids would just not turn him loose, and the 7-year-old cried all the way to El Paso. And this is not an exaggeration. The others cried all the way back to Jackson, Mississippi, which is about an hour's drive. It was just so heart-breaking.
We try to deal with it on an everyday basis. I try to play the part of a father now and a grandfather for my grandsons. It is very difficult to replace a father. It's impossible.
DOBBS: What is your -- Jenny, your thought? I'm going to be talking with the man who decided to prosecute Ignacio, Jose later. What question would you have for him? I would like to know from each of you what you would want me to ask the U.S. attorney, Johnny Sutton, who decided to give immunity to an illegal alien drug smuggler and to prosecute two men who had served honorably in the Border Patrol for so many years?
ORWIG: I would ask him where he thought of all this corruption that he has brought on. How he could have brought on all of these issues that were lies.
DOBBS: Like what?
ORWIG: Like, for example, the exaggeration of the arrest, the exaggeration of how it just intermingled with everything that has happened.
DOBBS: Joe?
LOYA: I would like to ask him why he went around the country lying, saying that these agents had signed -- had signed confessions to the five different charges that he claimed, and this was even before the sentencing. I think in any other case, it would have been grounds for a retrial, those lies that government admitted, the Department of Homeland Security admitted to just six weeks ago.
DOBBS: Claudia, we just have a couple of minutes. Claudia, your thoughts? Your question for Johnny Sutton?
C. MARTINEZ: I would just like you to ask him, why? Why he went after both my brother and Nacho? And I agree with Joe. Why the exaggerations of the truth? I just want to know why.
DOBBS: Daniel, very quickly, if you could, your question for the man who decided to prosecute Nacho and Jose.
D. MARTINEZ: Yes, just one question. How can you sleep at night? Your conscience must make it very...
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
D. MARTINEZ: Thank you.
DOBBS: Daniel, thank you very much. Claudia, thank you. Joe, thank you. And, Jenny, thank you very much for being here.
LOYA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: And I know you are going to see Jose -- Ignacio tomorrow. Give him our best.
ORWIG: Oh, I will.
DOBBS: Thank you.
We'll have much more on the families of these two former Border Patrol agents in one -- in our one-hour special tonight entitled "Border Betrayal." It's at 8:00 Eastern. And tonight, we'll also be taking a look at their fight to secure the release of these two men. More than -- just under 100 congressmen seeking their release. And, of course, we'll be talking with a man who prosecuted these two agents, U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton.
Now back to Kitty Pilgrim in New York. Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks, Lou.
A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Do you believe that Alberto Gonzales should resign as U.S. attorney general? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
And coming up, is Hillary Clinton losing support among Democrats? A new poll suggests that might be the case. Our panel of radio hosts weighs in on that and some other stories their listeners are talking about. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PILGRIM: Joining me now are three of the country's top radio talk show hosts. From Phoenix, we are joined by Charles Goyette of KFNX. From Los Angeles, Doug McIntyre of KABC. And Roland Martin of WVON here in Chicago, but he is here in our studios in New York. And thanks for joining us.
Let's start with the most recent news. We just moments ago, actually, the Senate defeated $122 billion supplemental war funding bill. Now, they voted, for our viewers, 50-48, to keep the language ordering President Bush to withdraw the combat troops by next year. This is a symbolic blow to the White House.
And while I'm sort of setting this up a bit, let's take a look at what the White House press office issued a statement, and so let's take a look at that. And it says, "The president is disappointed that the Senate continues down a path with a bill that he will veto and has no chance of becoming law. In the two weeks since the Senate defeated a similar proposal, General Petraeus reports encouraging signs already emerging. The Senate, which unanimously confirmed the general for this mission, needs to support him by providing our troops the funding they need -- not by mandating failure. As the president said, our men and women in uniform should not have to worry that politicians in Washington will deny them the funds and the flexibility they need to win."
What do you make of this mess? Roland.
ROLAND MARTIN, WVON: They keep saying win. Win exactly what? The only thing Congress can do is hold the purse strings, and so that's what they're doing. The American people voted in November. They made it perfectly clear how they felt. The White House refuses to acknowledge that. So they keep saying win, win, win, but win what?
PILGRIM: Yes. Charles?
CHARLES GOYETTE, KFNX: Kitty, the Congress has got to finally do the right thing in conference committee: Get rid of the pork that the House put in there, do the honorable thing and give the president a clean bill that he can veto, and then go to battle over that issue.
But that was a really interesting choice of phrases. Mandating failure? We have had mandated failure from this administration in Iraq for four years. We have had purple finger elections, we had the new constitution, the new parliament, the arrest of Saddam Hussein, the trial of Saddam Hussein. At every instance, they said, well, we've turned the corner. I think we've finally turned the corner and rolled over in Iraq. And it's time to come home.
PILGRIM: Charles, weigh in here.
DOUG MCINTYRE, KABC: Well, I think that this was a test vote, Kitty, that the Senate, House members and the Senate Democrats had to -- had to bring -- deliver something to the base, to the people who elected them, and they're on the record now as saying that they've voted to cut off funding. But the White House doesn't have to seriously worry about this until Republican votes start to peel off, and I think that if we continue on a benchmarks of failure, frankly, in Iraq, you will start to see more and more Republicans get nervous and start to peel away the closer we get to '08.
PILGRIM: Gentlemen, I would like to change the subject to a subject that's near and dear to our hearts. In fact, we're doing a special on this at 8:00 tonight, and we've been covering it extensively, and that's the Ramos-Compean border guard incarcerations, which on this broadcast we've proven night after night seems to be a travesty of justice.
Can you weigh in, Roland, on what you think should be done about this situation?
MARTIN: Well, first and foremost, I would love to say the attorney general needs to weigh in, but he has a whole set of his own problems right now.
It is a matter of justice, but it's not just this case. I mean, there are people all across this country who have gone through our criminal justice system, who are on death row who shouldn't be on death row, people who have significant problems with it.
But in this particular case, you need the Justice Department to step in and say, wait a minute. There are some significant questions that we need answered that's not getting answered.
PILGRIM: Doug, go ahead.
MCINTYRE: Well, I think -- I agree. I think this is a real can of worms, because if you buy the premise that this is a political prosecution to send a shot across the bow of the Border Patrol not to enforce the sovereign laws of the United States of America, then what you are really doing is acknowledging that this administration will use the Justice Department to crush their enemies for political purposes, and you are really opening the door to every conspiracy theory that you can imagine.
PILGRIM: Charles, what do you think?
GOYETTE: Well, one of the other Scooters in the Justice Department -- this is Scooter Goodling -- is going to take the Fifth Amendment. I want people to know that this attorney general is Torture Memo Al, and the Fifth Amendment that his aide is going to invoke is the world's first meaningful anti-torture device. I think the irony of the fact that this Torture Memo Al's aide is going to invoke the Fifth Amendment is something that the American people should take note of.
PILGRIM: All right. Let's take a quick break here. We'll have much more with our panel next. But, first, a look at what's coming up at the top of the hour on "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, SITUATION ROOM: Thanks, Kitty. Senator John McCain, painting a relatively optimistic picture of the current situation in Iraq, saying the news media is out of touch. Will his war stance hurt his presidential campaign? You're going to want to see my interview with the Republican candidate.
Also, she's pleading the Fifth and raising the stakes as Congress investigates the Justice Department's prosecutor purge. We're going to tell you exactly who Monica Goodling is and what she may know.
And another high-profile political figure battling cancer again. The White House press secretary Tony Snow. We'll show you how common his condition is, and what doctors are saying about his prognosis. All that, Kitty, coming up right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
PILGRIM: Look forward to it, Wolf. Thanks.
We're back with our panel right after this. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me again are three of the country's top radio hosts. We have Charles Goyette in Phoenix, Roland Martin here in New York, and Doug McIntyre in Los Angeles.
Gentlemen, let's talk about Iran for a second. We have some movement in the waters off of Iran. U.S. military has positioned two aircraft carriers with warplanes in the Persian Gulf. That was scheduled. But they are doing war games, and that comes days after Iran seized 15 British sailors. What do you make of this?
MARTIN: Classic saber rattling. That's what's going on here. It's not going to make a difference. We're not going to invade Iran. If we do, it would be utter chaos, and so, clearly this administration wants to send a signal, but I don't think Iran really cares about our signals at this moment.
PILGRIM: OK, Doug, what do you think?
GOYETTE: If you want to send a signal, you can use email. You can send a diplomatic -- if you want to send a signal.
This is a very dangerous situation. This is the kind of thing historians look back on 50 years later and wonder, how did this war break out? It's very dangerous, and I won't rest easy until Scooter Cheney and Scooter Bush have been replaced.
PILGRIM: OK. What do you think, Doug?
MCINTYRE: Well, I think -- I agree that this is a very dangerous game. We call it war games, but Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is clearly pressing an advantage. They have got game film on us, and they know that we've politically and even militarily got our hands full as it is, and they're pressing their advantage.
I mean, clearly, grabbing those 15 British sailors wasn't an accident. The timing was very specific. So there is a game of chicken being played here, and you have to hope that somebody doesn't cross a line that's uncrossable. Once you cross, you can't come back.
MARTIN: Kitty, General Petraeus said when it came to Iraq, this is a diplomatic solution. At some point, when is this administration going to realize you have to talk to people, we have to use diplomacy. Otherwise, you just can't keep using the military, because it's not going to work. We see what's happening in Iraq. It's not going to happen in Iran. You have to have diplomacy going on.
PILGRIM: Anybody want to weigh in here?
MCINTYRE: Well, I don't think that we're in a position to open a fourth front.
(CROSSTALK)
PILGRIM: Hold on a second. Doug, go ahead.
MCINTYRE: I don't think we're in a position right now to open a fourth front of a war. You have got homeland to deal with. You have got Afghanistan and Iraq. And to open up a fourth front would be difficult -- very, very difficult. Awful, frankly. But we're not totally in control of this, and this is something we have to understand, that Iran also gets a say in this.
PILGRIM: All right. Gentlemen, we have to go. We'll continue this another time. Thank you very much for being here tonight.
GOYETTE: Thank you, Kitty.
MARTIN: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll: 96 of you -- 96 percent of you believe Alberto Gonzales should resign as U.S. attorney general.
Thanks for being with us. Please join us again tonight at 8:00 Eastern for a special edition, "Border Betrayal." And Lou joins us now for a preview of what's coming up -- Lou.
Well, Lou is in Yazoo City, Mississippi, and he will be joining us at 8:00 to answer questions about the prosecution and the imprisonment of the Border Patrol agents Jose Ramos and Ignacio Compean. We will be there at 8:00. Please join us for that special.
And now we join Wolf Blitzer and "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Wolf.
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