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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Campus Massacre: Police Identify Gunman; Police Too Slow?; Massacre Victims
Aired April 17, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, new details of the worst shooting rampage in American history and the troubled past of the gunman who killed 32 students and faculty members in cold blood.
And new questions tonight about the police response to these shootings. Could more lives have been saved if police had locked down the campus earlier?
We'll have a special report.
We will also be asking the question, what should our society do about the underlying causes of such violence?
We'll have complete coverage tonight from Virginia Tech, much more on this tragedy, and the rest of the day's news straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Tuesday, April 17th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
The gunman responsible for the shooting rampage at Virginia Tech was an English major who apparently had a history of mental illness. Officials have identified the shooter as Cho Seung-Hui, a South Korean who was a resident alien in this country.
Students, faculty and staff members today attended a solemn ceremony to remember and honor the victims. Thirty-two people were killed by the gunman, at least 15 other people remain in the hospital.
Jeanne Meserve tonight reports have Virginia Tech on the gunman, his troubled past.
John Zarrella reports on new details about the wounds suffered by survivors of the shooting rampage.
And David Mattingly reporting on charges the police were too slow to lock down the campus of Virginia Tech.
We turn first to Jeanne Meserve -- Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the people of Virginia Tech were looking for comfort today. They were looking for answers. And they got a bit of both.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice over): Cheers mixed with ceremony, pride with sorrow, as Virginia Tech paused and wept and remembered its dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they can never be replaced, either in our hallways or in our hearts.
MESERVE: The school also learned who was responsible for the carnage, for the calculated murder of 32.
CHIEF WENDELL FLINCHUM, VIRGINIA TECH POLICE: We have been able to confirm the identity of the gunman at Norris Hall. That person is Cho Seung-Hui.
MESERVE: Cho had come to law enforcement's attention before for stalking another student last year in person and on e-mail, according to investigators. Government officials said he had a history of mental illness.
A former student who shared a class with Cho described in a blog two plays Cho wrote as really twisted, like something out of a nightmare. And a professor who taught him described Cho as depressed, urged him to see a counselor and warned the university about him.
LUCINDA ROY, VIRGINIA TECH ENGLISH PROFESSOR: There were several of us in English who became concerned when we had him in class for various reasons. And so I contacted some people to try to get some help for him because I was deeply concerned myself.
MESERVE: But other students in his dormitory said that they had noticed nothing unusual.
TIMOTHY JOHNSON, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: I didn't really have any impressions. He was just a normal guy to me.
MESERVE: Cho came to the U.S. from Korea at the age of eight and graduated from Westfield High School near Centreville, Virginia. School yearbooks contain not just his picture, but also photos of two of his victims, Reema Samaha and Erin Peterson.
Police called Cho a loner. That matches the description given by family neighbors.
MARSHALL MAIN, NEIGHBOR: I don't know if I've ever seen him at all in the past year. He'd just go in and out.
MESERVE: Around the clock, investigators have worked the grisly and complicated Norris Hall crime scene gathering forensic evidence. They say two weapons were used, a .9 millimeter Glock and a .22 Walther semi-automatic.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has been able to recover their serial numbers which had been filed off and traced where Cho bought them. (END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: The university just had a briefing. Police said there was no evidence that Cho had an accomplice. And when asked why he stopped shooting, whether he had run out of ammunition, one police official said, "I don't know why he stopped."
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Jeanne, thank you very much.
Jeanne Meserve, from Blacksburg, Virginia.
At least 15 of the shooting victims remain in the hospital, still being treated. One of the doctors treating those survivors said the gunman was simply brutal. The doctor said each and every one of the shooting victims has at least three bullet wounds.
John Zarrella tonight reports from Montgomery Regional Hospital in Blacksburg, Virginia -- John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, and just a little while ago, some more good news coming out of Montgomery Regional Hospital.
You know, yesterday, there were three people here in critical condition. All of those here now updated by the doctor and -- by the doctors and by the hospital CEO, just a little while ago telling us that they are all doing much better.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT Hill, MONTGOMERY REGIONAL HOSPITAL: All of our patients are still in stable condition, which is a good thing. We're very happy about that. We did discharge one patient earlier today. And two patients have been discharged from Lewis-Gale Hospital, and they still have one in that facility that's in stable condition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DAVID STOEKLE, HOSPITAL CHIEF OF SURGERY: The patient that I took care of was an incredible guy. And I didn't really get to talk to him much until afterwards.
He had a gunshot wound right through his femoral artery, and it literally ripped three centimeters out of his femoral artery of his right leg.
QUESTION: Three centimeters?
STOEKLE: About three centimeters of his femoral artery was gone out of his -- out of his femoral artery in his right leg, and he was bleeding significantly.
He wrapped -- he was an Eagle Scout. He wrapped a wire cord from apparently an electrical -- something electrical that was in that classroom. He wrapped it tightly, and I think he had one of the other students help him wrap this around his leg because he knew he was bleeding to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELLA: Now, Dr. Stoekle told me when I asked him -- I said, "Dr. Stoekle, how about your emergency plan? How about the disaster plan? How did that work?"
And he said if it hadn't been for the disaster plan, which they carry out two times a year in different scenarios, they practice that, if it hadn't been for that and how well it worked, he said he has absolutely no doubt that there would have been more people who came here that would have died from their injuries.
So, Lou, good news here tonight. They are improving in their condition. Although some of them will probably be here for quite some time recovering from those wounds -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, absolutely wonderful news. And the hospital there, a small hospital doing remarkable work as these victims were brought in.
ZARRELLA: Just an incredible story, Lou, of how this all unfolded. They were getting information by the minute, by the second of the kinds of injuries that they were going to be facing.
I asked Dr. Stoekle, "Did you know before they got to you, before they came through the door, what you were facing?" And he said, "Absolutely, we knew before they walked in what we needed to do, orthopedic doctors that needed to be called in, what specialists we needed, what level of injuries each and every one of them had before they ever hit the door."
And that, he said, is a credit to the disaster plan, again, which they work on twice a year here at this hospital. And have been doing that, he said, ever since 9/11 -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much.
John Zarrella from Montgomery Regional Hospital.
Many questions remain about this incident, of course. More questions about the police response to these shootings. Some parents and students now say police should have locked down the entire campus immediately after the first shooting. But Virginia Tech's president, Charles Steger, said police believed the first shooting was the result of a domestic dispute.
David Mattingly reports now from Virginia Tech -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we've been looking very closely at the timeline of what students were told and when they were told throughout yesterday's events. And we found that at 9:26 a.m. is when they got their first e- mail from the campus, and it alerted them to be cautious and to report anything suspicious. That's two hours -- a two full-hour period after the first 911 call came in to police saying that there had been a shooting and there were two dead students in a dormitory here on campus.
That would were have given the killer plenty of time to leave that crime scene. And we actually walked through this area today, Lou. He was able to -- would have been able to leave that crime scene, walk to his dorm, which is about 30-second walk away. He had time to cool his heels, and then walk across campus, where he went into an academic building and then murdered other students in their classrooms.
Some people on campus an off today are saying they should have been told more and been told something sooner, much sooner, but officials even on the state level here are saying that the university acted properly with the information that they had.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MARSHALL, VIRGINIA DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC SAFETY: I think it's important to note that yesterday morning, President Steger and his staff and Chief Flinchum and law enforcement made the right decisions based on the best information that they had available at the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Even after these e-mails went out, there was a delay because students weren't always at a place where they could retrieve their e-mail. So they had to rely on word of mouth a lot of times to find out what was going on here.
There's a new system in place on other campuses that use text messaging that goes straight to PDAs, that goes straight to cell phones of students so they get that information instantaneously. But that system is not available here on this campus -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, thank you. There is no broad warning systems, a siren, or any other kind of alert that can be used on that campus?
MATTINGLY: Well, there probably is, but when you look back at this particular case, it started off with the deaths of two students in one dorm, and authorities made the decision then based on what they knew that this was an isolated event and that there wasn't any danger to the students at large. Of course, looking back, they were wrong to make that assumption, but at the time they were acting on the information that they had.
DOBBS: What do the public safety officials say about the fact that they did not know where the murder of the two individuals, the first two people shot, had no idea where he was?
MATTINGLY: At this point, there's not a lot of second-guessing going on amongst the authorities here in Virginia. They are just trying to get the facts of this case as best they can right now. But there will be a lot of questions. A the lot of people died here, leaving behind literally a million questions about how this could have been stopped ahead of time.
DOBBS: And questions that will extend beyond and for days and weeks to come, I'm sure.
David, thank you.
David Mattingly from Virginia Tech.
On the campus of Virginia Tech today, incredible stories of survival and heroism. Eyewitnesses sharing their firsthand accounts of what it was like when the gunman opened fire.
Brianna Keilar is at Virginia Tech now with more -- Brianna.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Lou.
And also, I just came out of the latest news conference held by the university. And what was interesting was Virginia Tech police did not take part, only state police. And it's Virginia Tech police that we really have a lot of these questions for. Of course, as David just reported, the university is under a lot of pressure. Governor Timothy Kaine did speak out at this news conference, and he is promising a full review.
Meanwhile, the latest details in this investigation, Lou, police say they executed a search warrant at the dorm of the gunman, Cho Seung-Hui, and most of the evidence they say was documents, that there were "considerable writings" that they did pick up there.
State police, of course, the only police we heard from, said there was no suicide note. And they say at this point, they contacted all of the -- tentatively contacted, they said, all of the next of kin of the victims.
Meanwhile, students here, Lou, as you can imagine, still very much in shock. And today, more accounts from students and professors who survived this ordeal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just heard gunshots down the hall. And we didn't really make anything of it because there's a lot of construction on campus. And it became very apparent that there was a shooter right when we entered our classroom and shot somebody almost instantly.
He started shooting multiple people, a lot of them in the front row. And then lots of us panicked and went under our desks and tried to take cover. He just seemed trained to kill, almost. He had no, like, anger at all. He was just very calm and assertive, and very determined to kill everybody.
SCOTT HENDRICKS, VIRGINIA TECH PROFESSOR: I first looked out the window, I saw some students crawling away who had jumped out of the -- out of the building. I called 911, and then I just huskered down in my office. I barricaded the door and watched CNN on my computer.
NIKOLAS MACKO, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: One of my classmates sitting right by the doors, she looked out in the hall, saw the shooter, and closed the door immediately. Three other classmates who were sitting in the front of the class moved the table that's in the front of the room up against the door and they laid down on the floor and held it against it.
JASON KLEIN, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: I was approaching Hancock Hall, which is right behind Norris. The police got on their megaphone and said please seek shelter, stay away from the windows, there's a gunman on campus.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KEILAR: And as you can imagine, as I said, a lot of shock here, people amazed that one person could have caused this devastation. But also, I spoke with one student who said the sadness he feels is really starting to dig in right about now.
Meanwhile, classes have been canceled this week. And Lou, a lot of students are taking advantage of that and heading home.
DOBBS: Brianna, thank you very much.
Brianna Keilar.
Coming up next, lost lives, the victims of what has become the worst shooting rampage in American history. We'll have tonight some of their stories, from a Virginia Tech freshman, to a survivor of the Holocaust.
And the remarkable story tonight of a Virginia Tech student whose bravery helped save many lives.
We'll have his story in his own words next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A hero is often defined as someone who conquers their fear. Virginia Tech student Zach Petkewicz said that he heard the shooting begin and he was absolutely scared out of his mind. But that didn't stop him from helping blockade a door and to save lives. Without him, the death toll would have been even higher.
Here is part of Zach's story in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZACH PETKEWICZ, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: So I said, "We need to barricade this door." Me and two others got up, threw a couple of tables in front of it, and had to physically hold it there while there were gunshots going on. He came to our door, tried the handle, couldn't get it in because we were pushing up against it. He tried to force his way in, got the door to open up about six inches, and then we just lunged at it and closed it back up. And that's when he backed up and shot twice into the middle of the door, thinking we were up against it trying to get him out.
And I was right -- I was up against the side holding this desk up against there, and I just heard his clip drop to the ground. He reloaded, and I thought he was coming back for a second round and trying to get his way in there. And, I mean, he just -- he didn't say a word, and he just turned and kept firing down the hall and didn't try to get back in.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: You may have saved so many lives. What do you say when people are calling you a hero today?
It's tough.
PETKEWICZ: I'm just glad I could be here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: There were 11 people in that classroom with Zach, a gunman outside the door, and they're all still here tonight.
We're still just learning the names and about the lives of the victims of this tragedy, those who didn't survive the massacre. They range from students, at least one freshman, to full professors. The death toll includes a survivor of the Holocaust.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Ryan Clark, marching band member, a resident adviser and triple major. A senior from Georgia and one of the first killed.
His twin brother.
BRYAN CLARK, BROTH OF RYAN CLARK: Just watching him share the things he loved to do, watching him share those things with other people is just -- it's going to be hard.
ROMANS: Hard for the families of 32 men and women, teachers and students, like Reema Joseph Samaha, a freshman from Centreville, Virginia, who loved to dance more than anything else.
G.V. Loganathan, 51 years old, an engineering professor educated in India and Purdue University.
Nineteen-year-old Emily Jane Hilscher, an animal lover. A friend calls her friendly and helpful.
Matthew LaPorte of Dumont, New Jersey, studying political science and French.
Erin Peterson. Her father tells CNN his 18-year-old daughter died in her French class.
Daniel Cueva of Woodbridge, Virginia, also killed in his French class.
Kevin Granata, an award-winning biomechanics researcher who sill found time to coach his children's sports teams.
Twenty-year-old Ross Alameddine, a sophomore from Massachusetts. His friends are using his MySpace page to say goodbye.
Liviu Librescu, an Israeli professor who reportedly held the door to his classroom shut while his students jumped out of the window.
ARIEAH LIBRESCU, SON OF PROF. LIBRESCU: He's a hero at a level which I didn't even think my father could be.
ROMANS: A world-renowned aeronautics engineer, he survived the Holocaust and communist Romania, to die in Virginia on Israel's Holocaust Remembrance Day.
Thirty-two families.
NADIA CLARK, SISTER OF RYAN CLARK: I've lost a brother, you know. And I had two. Now I just have one. And I lost a friend. I lost part of my heart. You know.
ROMANS: Heartbroken.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: We're still learning the names of the victims at this hour.
Daniel O'Neil (ph) of Rhode Island; 19-year-old Mary Read (ph); Jeremy Herbstrett (ph), a graduate student who earned his bachelor's from Penn State; Caitlin Hamerin (ph) from Westtown, New York; and Maxine Turner (ph), a chemical engineering senior.
So many more still to be identified, Lou. Each one a story, a life cut short and an entire family that's mourning.
DOBBS: A senseless, terrible tragedy.
Christine, thank you very much.
We'll have much more on the Virginia Tech tragedy and its aftermath ahead here. The massacre spawning already copycat threats around the country.
Who is making these threats? And what should school officials be doing?
And who was this campus killer at Virginia Tech? Tonight we take a look at his troubled life, including his disturbing e-mail messages, and we analyze what many say are the underlying causes of this madness.
Those stories and much more straight ahead.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our coverage of the shooting massacre at Virginia Tech continues in just a moment. We'll share with you the touching remembrances today shared at a tribute to those slain at the school.
We turn now to the deadly storms that ripped through the Northeast. The death toll continues to climb in the worst nor'easter to hit in 15 years. The death toll has risen to at least 17.
Today, firefighters and police pulling families from flooded homes in New Jersey. The deadly storm spreading devastation from South Carolina, all the way up to Maine.
The massacre at Virginia Tech spawned a wave, incredibly, of new threats at high schools and college campuses around the country today.
As Lisa Sylvester now reports, after yesterday's shooting rampage, school officials are taking those threats very seriously.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Students at St. Edward's University in Austin, Texas, were awakened from their beds and told to leave their dorms. Some didn't even have time to grab their shoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got to get out now. Like, you can't stay in the dorm any longer. Get out immediately.
SYLVESTER: The campus was shut down after a bomb threats, a note found in a campus restroom.
In rural Louisiana, a similar situation. Police arrested and charged a man for allegedly making threatening remarks in a note that mentioned a local high school and the words "Virginia Tech".
And a Hollywood, Florida, high school was locked down after a student reportedly had a gun and threatened suicide.
Officials say it is not unusual to see a spate of copycat threats after a major incident of school violence.
WILLIAM LASSITER, CENTER FOR PREVENTION OF SCHOOL VIOLENCE: A lot of people across the country that may have thought about one of these incidents in the past go ahead and decide this is the time to do it.
SYLVESTER: After Columbine, Colorado congressman Tom Tancredo pushed for a new safety hotline for high schools for students to anonymously report tips. Tancredo says colleges and universities should have similar hotlines.
In many cases, mass murderers leave clues. Cho Seung-Hui through his English class writings.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: I think there should be something, a place where people can report what they've heard, and make people understand that when you hear people say things like this, like, "I'm going to do something like that," take them seriously.
SYLVESTER: Experts say previous incidents including Columbine happened during the spring and fall, when school is either starting or about to end.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Center for Prevention of School Violence does not know why school shootings seem to happen around mid-April and mid- October, but if the past is any indication, these are the times when school administrators should be particularly vigilant -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you.
Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Coming up next, we'll have a live interview with a friend of one of the first people killed at Virginia Tech.
Also, a campus in mourning. Students, faculty, staff, family members remembering and honoring victims of this shooting tragedy. We'll have their story.
And new insight into the troubled mind and spirit of a student- turned-cold-blooded killer. We'll have a special report on the gunman's twisted and macabre writings, essays that alarmed professors and students.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tragedy, and today a first day of mourning at Virginia Tech. The victims of yesterday's shooting rampage are being remembered in services on campus. A somber and moving ceremony held this afternoon at the university.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TOM KAINE (D), VIRGINIA: Let me ask one thing of you, this community, as you wrestle with your sadness, as you wrestle with your own feelings of anger or confusion, as you wrestle with the despair, even you family members who have lost people close to you, do not, do not let hold of that spirit of community.
ZENOBIA HIKES, V.P. STUDENT AFFAIRS: What has happened to these beloved members of our family has brought us even closer together in our shared grief and our disbelief. With the help and support of each other, and our brothers and sisters, all over the world, we will eventually recover. But we will never ever forget.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: A candlelight prayer vigil will be held tonight on the campus at 8 p.m. on the drill field at Virginia Tech.
Carol Costello joins me now for more on today's mourning -- Carol.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I have two students here, Lou, who are going to that vigil tonight, and they'll join up with the family of their very best friend, who was lost at Norris Hall.
Twenty-one-year-old Daniel Perez was killed while he was attending French class. With me now, Megan and Donald.
Donald, you were Daniel's roommate. Tell me what was what it was like when you were trying to find out whether Daniel was alive or dead?
DONALD SMITH, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: It was terrible. I mean, we contacted all the hospitals. And we were told that he was not on any list there, so initially we thought that was positive news. And we just assumed that he was being held for questioning. And we always assumed the best until we heard the unfortunate news.
COSTELLO: And it took you until about 10 p.m. at night to find out Daniel was gone?
SMITH: Yes, that's correct.
COSTELLO: So when you go home and you see Daniel's things still there, you know, gosh, what goes through your mind?
SMITH: We are missing a friend, a very good friend. And he's a great guy, and we loved him very much.
COSTELLO: Daniel was originally from Peru. He was only in this country since 2000, but he was terrifically smart. I know he made the dean's list. He spoke four languages.
Megan, you were his very best friend. Tell me a little bit about him.
MEGAN MIRMELSTEIN, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: Daniel was an amazing person, like you said. He was really dedicated. He was in the honor society here and had just become a Hokie ambassador.
COSTELLO: And he wanted to work in embassies. He wanted to save the world, because in the year 2001 he was in Washington, D.C. He was very near the Pentagon when that plane hit. So he wanted to go into international studies, and what did he want to do? MIRMELSTEIN: I think that he wanted to go into international law. We both wanted to go into that, and we both looked at law schools that have international law and to go to graduate school. And he actually was trying to work at the French embassy this summer and get an internship there.
COSTELLO: He died in French class.
Both of -- both Donald and Megan are going to meet up with Daniel's sister and her mother for that vigil tonight, Lou, and they're going to try to derive some comfort from one another.
DOBBS: Carol, thank you. And our best to Donald and to Megan, to everyone grieving at Virginia Tech. A terrible and senseless tragedy, we're going to hear those words over and over. Carol, thank you. Carol Costello.
We're learning more shocking details about the campus killer, 23- year-old Cho Seung-Hui. For more on this troubled life we turn now to Jim Acosta, who's also at Virginia Tech -- Jim.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
Yes, earlier this afternoon, we tracked down the former chair of the English department here at Virginia Tech, a woman by the name of Lucinda Roy. And she painted an eerie picture of this young man.
She says in the fall of 2005, one of Cho Seung-Hui's brothers, a creative writing professor, came to her with some of Cho Seung-Hui's writings and saying these writings were very disturbing. She was so disturbed by what she read, she took those writings to the university officials.
And she says when she took those writings to university officials she was told that there was nothing that could be done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Do you think those concerns should have been taken more seriously?
LUCINDA ROY, VIRGINIA TECH ENGLISH PROFESSOR: I think that they should have been taken more seriously. But I'm not somebody who would give up easily, so I went back repeatedly with my concerns. And in the end, I felt -- I was so uncomfortable that I didn't feel I could leave him in the classroom, because some of the other students seemed to be uncomfortable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: And she says she pressed them on this issue, and she was told by university officials that, because this student has a right to write whatever he wants, that he was able to stay in that department.
And because she was so concerned about the safety to other students, she decided to take it upon herself to teach this student one on one in a workshop, she called it, in poetry. And she spent an entire semester in the fall of 2005 with this young man.
She says during that time while he completed his tasks, he did not open up very much, revealing very little about himself. She says during that time, she tried to urge him to seek counseling. That was also unsuccessful.
We asked her -- we asked her what she thinks about the fact that parents, when they hear about this, are going to be very upset. She says she completely understands why people would be upset. She says she tried and tried and tried to alert university officials to what she thought was a troubled student.
She says in her 22-year career, this was quite frankly the most troubled student she had ever run across -- Lou.
DOBBS: Professor Roy, a remarkable woman, professor, teacher and protector of her students. The idea that a student like Cho Seung-Hui could not be dealt with by the university and by dealt with, I mean helped, is that because of privacy laws? What is the reason?
ACOSTA: Well, she told us that she thinks the law needs to be changed. That essentially, yes, it's sort of a right to free speech that was being exercised by this student in these writings, and that's what the university officials told her. They told her, according to what she told us, that there was nothing warning of pending violence.
And so because of that, they said there was nothing that could be done in terms of pulling him out of the department, pulling him out of that program.
And so that's when she said this kid is too much of a risk to my students, to my faculty. I'm going to take it upon myself to teach this young man one on one.
But she said she was never able to penetrate what she thought was a very dark and closed off persona. She said he even wore sunglasses all the time, even in class, and would respond with one word answers, you know, after sort of -- after a five minute question, he would respond yes or no. I mean those are the kinds of exchanges or dialogues she would have with this student. And it went on for an entire semester, Lou.
DOBBS: And Professor Roy, again, deserves great credit. Another hero in this in protecting her students, in trying to seek help and protection at a time when it would have mattered greatly. Thank you very much.
Still ahead here, what drove Cho Seung-Hui to kill 32 people at Virginia Tech? We'll be joined by two experts on school violence, a clinical psychiatrist.
And why was it so easy for this gunman to buy those weapons he used to kill his victims? We'll have that report.
And yesterday's shooting rampage comes at a time when violent crimes on campuses, we're told, are down, but there are other, in fact greater damages facing our college students. We'll have that special report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Virginia Tech gunman bought one of the weapons he used more than five weeks ago. The gun dealer who sold the pistol said it was, quote, "probably the most unremarkable sale ever."
Drew Griffin reports now from Virginia Tech -- Drew.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, clean-cut college student walks into the store. He goes through. He presents his identification. He presents two other forms of I.D., one a resident alien card, the other a checkbook with his name and address on it.
He passes the instant background check and minutes later walks out of that store with a $571 purchase, a Glock 9mm gun, used in these crimes, along with 50 rounds of ammunition. It was just that simple.
The gun owner told us he had no idea, no inkling at all that this kid was involved in this crime even after the crime took place until ATF agents showed up and showed him the receipt that Seung Cho was carrying with him when he died on this campus.
He said he was just stunned, but as they looked back at the record, he and his store did everything legal. And at the time, Seung Cho was legally in the right to purchase that gun here in the state of Virginia, no question about it -- Lou.
DOBBS: In Virginia there is no waiting period for the purchase of a handgun, correct?
GRIFFIN: That's correct. You'll find that in a lot of states. They have to go through what's through the instant background check. You put in your data, your Social Security, your D.O.B. If you get any hint on that instant check, any kind of misdemeanor that would be for more than a year in prison or any hit at all, the gun sale is immediately put on hold.
The owner says, according to the paperwork, which he's now handed over to the ATFs, there was no hold at all on this kid. He looked clean-cut. He just had all the identification he needed. And he bought it five weeks ago, as you say, Lou.
DOBBS: The Glock he bought five weeks ago. A waiting period would have had no absolutely no impact on his purchase of this weapon, as it turns out. What about the other weapon, the .22 caliber?
GRIFFIN: Still learning about that. It reportedly was purchased as late as last week, but we don't know.
The serial numbers on both of these guns were rubbed off. On the Glock there are three points where there are serial numbers, and Seung Cho went to a lot of attention to file those off.
On the other gun, apparently they were filed off, too, Lou, but the ATF has managed to raise those serial numbers. I'm sure the ATF knows where that second gun was purchased and when, but we don't have that information yet.
DOBBS: Drew, thank you very much. Drew Griffin.
The massacre at Virginia Tech is once again intensifying the debate on gun control, at least for now. The first days after a tragedies such as Virginia Tech and Columbine bring calls for stricter gun control.
As Bill Schneider now reports, it's an issue most political candidates prefer to stay away from.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The last significant gun control measures to make it through Congress were the Brady Bill in 1993 and the assault weapons ban in 1994. And what happened? Democrats lost control of Congress for 12 years. President Bush blamed the gun lobby.
Democrats have been gun-shy ever since. Al Gore rarely talked about gun control in 2000.
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: None of my proposals would have any effect on hunters or sportsmen or people who use a rifle.
SCHNEIDER: John Kerry went hunting in 2004.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I will protect the Second Amendment. I always have and I will.
SCHNEIDER: Nevertheless, the National Rifle Association ran this ad.
CHRIS COX, NRA: John Kerry, you are not fooling America's gun owners. They know you voted against their gun rights for 20 years. So now you're running away from your record, just like Al Gore did.
SCHNEIDER: This year, Rudy Giuliani, a long-time supporter of gun control, says the matter should be left to the states.
Polls show the public supports gun control. Why don't the politicians get with the people?
Public support for stricter gun laws has been declining since the 1990s. In January, the number was 49 percent, less than a majority for the first time since at least 1990. Why? The decline seems related in the drop in the violent crime rate since 1994.
After a shocking incident like the one at Virginia Tech, public anger over gun violence rises. Senator Dianne Feinstein issued a statement saying, "I believe this will reignite the dormant effort to pass common sense gun regulations in this nation."
But public anger is not usually sustained very long, whereas gun owners remember every gun control vote as a threat to their rights. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Gun owners vote this issue. Supporters of gun control typically don't. So politician believe they'll pay a price at the polls if they support new gun laws, even if most voters agree with them. When it comes to public opinion, intensity matters, not just numbers -- Lou.
DOBBS: But among those numbers, as you know, Bill, 70 million -- at least 70 million Americans who own guns, and an important gun control case, the Second Amendment prevailing and gun control efforts in Washington, D.C., being rolled back by the appellate court.
Bill, thank you very much. Bill Schneider.
Up here next, I'll be talking with a student who lost two friends in the massacre at Virginia Tech. We'll also examine whether this massacre could have been prevented. In college campuses all around the country, how safe are they? And what dangers do our students face? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Mourning will continue for some time for the students killed at Virginia Tech. Today the university remembered the friends that were killed yesterday.
Leon Noland lost his friend Erin Peterson. Leon also knew Ryan Clark, the resident assistant, one of the first people gunned down.
Leon, thanks for joining me here. To lose your friend Erin. Tell us what happened, as you understand it at this point.
LEON NOLAND, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: From what I understand, I stay in Pritchard Hall, which is across the field from West Ambler Johnston where the first shootings took place.
I got up, like any other Monday, went to English. Wasn't aware other than there was ambulance and cops around West A.J. But, you know, student life was going on as usual.
I hadn't checked my e-mail that morning. Went to English, got calls in the middle of the class saying that there were shootings around campus, not specifically at a certain place.
And at that time I decided to leave the hall I was in, Pamplin, for my English class. Went off to the drill field. And then the gunshots from Norris started off, and you know, police told everybody to evacuate the drill field. And pretty much we ran for cover then.
DOBBS: Erin, it turns out, knew the gunman. Was that correct?
NOLAND: Erin knew the gunman? I had no idea about that.
DOBBS: Apparently went to school with him. I can't say that she knew him, but apparently they did go to the same high school. Tell us something about Erin. Your impressions, your emotion tonight.
NOLAND: Well, I mean, yesterday, you know, when I first found out that she had been missing, like, all day and that, you know, the last time that anybody had talked to her she was heading to class in Norris, you know, first -- the first thing was, you know, where is she? That was the first thoughts that came to mind.
You know, I didn't -- I didn't wind up going to sleep thinking about it until 4 or 5 a.m. this morning. I woke up around 9 to, you know, call some family. You know, I had been getting notes all day.
And I turned on CNN, and about an hour after watching CNN, it came through that her father had, indeed, gotten in touch with one of the producers, and she was confirmed as dead.
But after that, I mean it was -- that was the closest person, you know, that as far as all the fatalities that I know of that I was really close with. So that really impacted me a lot, especially her being a freshman.
DOBBS: Well, Leon, we thank you very much for being with us. Our hearts go out to you, to all the friends and the families, all of the students at Virginia Tech. All of the staff, the faculty. We thank you for sharing your thoughts with us here tonight.
NOLAND: Thank you.
DOBBS: Yesterday's shooting rampage at Virginia Tech is a tragedy for all of us, for the entire country. Violent crime is relatively rare on college campuses, however, despite this tragedy.
As Casey Wian now reports, the far greater threat is what students are doing to themselves and to others.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The University of Southern California has 33,000 students and a police force of 190 officers; 80 are armed. The campus is open to the public, but three are stringent security measures. Video cameras, restricted access in dormitories and more than 400 emergency phones.
Still, USC averages about 50 violent crimes a year, mostly robberies, forcible sex offenses and assaults.
But nearby Beverly Hills, California, population almost identical to USC's, has a violent crime rate more than twice as high.
CAPT. DAVID CARLISLE, USC DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: The incident that occurred at Virginia Tech, and our hearts go out to them, we feel terrible about it for the families and our colleagues in campus law enforcement, but that is a rare exception. USC deals with more traditional issues for crime on campus or problems that occur with young people. WIAN: The annual violent crime rate on U.S. college campuses and their immediate neighborhoods is about 90 for every 100,000 students. For the general population, it's 2,000 violent crimes for 100,000 people.
The greater threat, alcohol and drug related accidents and alcohol poisoning, which killed nearly 2,000 college students each year. More than 1,000 others commit suicide.
On average, just 16 murders occur on U.S. college campuses each year, a figure doubled in one day at Virginia Tech.
RON ASTOR, AUTHOR, "SCHOOL VIOLENCE IN CONTEXT": And schools in particular have cliques. They have groups of people that are in, that are out. They have all sorts of their own social dynamics that would create relationships where somebody who is homicidal or suicidal, that it could be triggered.
WIAN: Yet college students are far more likely to be victimized by their own behavior than by a violent criminal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: USC is located in the heart of downtown Los Angeles surrounded by neighborhoods plagued by violence and gangs, but security officials there say the campus is the safest 150 acre section of the entire city -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.
Coming up at the top of the hour, our coverage of the Virginia Tech massacre continues. Wolf Blitzer will continue that coverage from "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou.
We're live here on the campus of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia. Tonight we're learning more about the very violent plays the gunman wrote right here. Did they foreshadow the massacre he was planning?
Also in the footsteps of the killer. We're going to take you across the sprawling campus, transformed from a peaceful university into a killing field.
And relatives of the victims gathering here tonight, some of them sharing their grief and shock and memories of the loved ones they lost in a morning of unspeakable horror.
All that, Lou, coming up, on our special coverage right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM".
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf.
And next here, disturbing new details about the man who killed 32 people before killing himself. We'll continue in one moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: What would drive anyone to take such deadly action? We're joined now by Katherine Newman. She's professor of sociology at Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, author of the book "Rampage". And Richard Arum, professor of sociology education at New York University. And Dr. Paul Ragan, associate professor of psychiatry at Vanderbilt University.
We now are learning something about this shooter.
Professor, the idea that this person had such macabre behavior, a professor, Lucinda Roy, going to the university saying this kid is troubled. Is this typical of what you find in these situations?
KATHERINE NEWMAN, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY: We frequently see a kind of trail of depression and troubled behavior, but it's often something that doesn't rise to the surface and rarely results in someone referring a student into the mental health system.
So my hat is off to this professor for doing so. That's actually quite rare. But leaving a paper trail behind, writing murderous essays, that's not so unusual.
DOBBS: And the cause of this, let's turn to -- because it seems to me impractical if not impossible to diagnose this young man who went on such a murderous rampage.
Professor, the causes of this, what should this society be looking at? We have seen an explosion of this kind of violence over the course of the past 30, 40 years. Why? And what should we be doing?
RICHARD ARUM, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AND EDUCATION: Well, again, I think that the causes of this we have to look at the larger social problems of youth socialization in our society, where we are having increasing problems socializing boys, in particular.
We see a growing incarceration rate in this society, a tripling since the mid '70s. We see an increase of males not working. And we see increasing problems with males finishing college in general. This is an acute manifestation of that larger problem.
DOBBS: And Professor Ragan, your thoughts?
PAUL RAGAN, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY: I think the psychological die was probably cast a good while ago. I'm very impressed with what I'm hearing as far as his alienation, his social isolation. When the chairman of his department is reaching out to him and his inability to respond well to her, one worries about an incipient psychosis, the sunglasses, the hat over the eyes. I think that this is somebody who was very much in an out group, has a rage towards the rich kids.
DOBBS: Why in the world would this professor, again, Lucinda Roy, identifying this young man for the university authorities? Why in the world wasn't counseling available to him? Why wasn't there some action the university could take?
RAGAN: Well, there is action.
DOBBS: Or any university.
RAGAN: There is action that they can take. Yes, he has free speech rights, but the university has a right to ask him to meet with someone, can talk with his parents. They can express their concerns also.
So I'm not sure. I'm not going to second guess. But I do want people to know around the country that you can do something.
DOBBS: Well, I think that's a very important message, Professor. And if you're not going to second guess, my guess is you will be in the minority in the days and weeks ahead here as examine this tragedy.
Professor Newman, this -- the reaction of the school, the fact that he was identified by the -- at least the professor, what should -- was the school presented from taking action in your opinion? Is there something any school, whether it be a public school or university, can do in these situations?
NEWMAN: I think is important that we understand that we do have mental health resources on our campuses and we do use them. And it's difficult to force someone into therapy. But my guess is he was encouraged, and he may or may not have taken them up on it. But we don't turn a blind eye to people in trouble.
DOBBS: But if you can't force someone, that is a blind eye.
NEWMAN: In our society, we don't generally force people who haven't done something illegal. We offer them. We try to persuade them, but we can't really force them. And unfortunately, this can sometimes be the consequence.
DOBBS: Should we be changing such laws, such regulations that block rational and common sense response to an obvious deeply troubled person?
ARUM: I think that's exactly the problem, that schools are increasingly constrained from responding to troubled kids like this. Constrained...
DOBBS: At all levels?
ARUM: At all levels. Constrained through privacy laws, constrained through the growth of due process protections for kids. And it is increasingly difficult for schools to respond in effective, proactive ways to youth in trouble.
DOBBS: I hope that -- I can ask each of you. We're out of time here tonight. Professor Newman, we thank you.
Professor Ragan, I hope you'll come back, because we're going to be examining these issues, the underlying causes and what we can do about them in this country, hopefully to prevent another tragedy of this nature and other violence.
Thank you all.
Thank you for being with us tonight. We ask you to join us tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" continues now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Lou.
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