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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Author Calls for Taking al Qaeda Threat Seriously; Australia Warns of Growing China Military Strength; China Refusing to Crack Down on Product Safety Standards
Aired July 05, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN HOST: Thanks, Suzanne.
Tonight, a surge in the number of people applying for U.S. citizenship. New evidence the United States is the most welcoming country in the world to foreigners.
Also corruption and poverty in Mexico have forced millions of Mexicans to become illegal aliens in this country. But incredibly, Mexican elites are richer than ever.
And many parts of the nation are sizzling in a near-record heat wave. Some areas say it's the worst drought since records were kept. And we will examine the dangerous new threat to our national security with former undersecretary of defense Jed Babbin. All of that and much more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Thursday, July 05. Live from New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody. We begin tonight with a showdown between the White House and a federal judge over former White House aide Scooter Libby. President Bush declared that Libby will serve probation after commuting Libby's prison sentence in the CIA leak case. However, the judge who sentenced Libby to prison disagrees with the president's assertion on Libby's probation. Ed Henry reports from the White House. Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, it turns out that Scooter Libby may not have to serve any probation, which could undermine one of Mr. Bush's key justifications for the commutation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): To make the case Lewis "Scooter" Libby is not getting a slap on the wrist, the president claims he will serve two years of probation.
GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: I felt the punishment was severe. So I made the decision that would commute his sentence but leave in place a serious fine and probation.
HENRY: But now the judge says Libby can't serve probation because his sentence was commuted before he did any prison time. "Strictly construed," Judge Reggie Walton wrote this week, "the statute authorizing the imposition of supervised release indicates that such release should occur only after the defendant has already served a term of imprisonment."
White House spokesman Scott Stanzel acknowledged he hasn't read the July 4th order but nevertheless tried to insist Libby's probation is not in dispute.
SCOTT STANZEL, W.H. DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: We believe the attorneys, the judge and the probation office can work out those details.
HENRY: But a clemency expert sided with the judge's interpretation and said the president may have erred by not first running the commutation by his own Justice Department.
MARGARET LOVE, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PARDON ATTORNEY: One would have thought he would have consulted with the justice department, the people who are the experts on federal sentencing.
HENRY: Their own argument under fire, the White House is lashing out at Bill Clinton's handling of pardons after the former president charged the law is a quote "minor obstacle" to this administration.
STANZEL: The hypocrisy demonstrated by Democratic leadership on this issue is rather startling. When you think about the previous administration and the 11th hour fire sale pardons, it's really startling they have the gall to criticize what we believe is a very considered, a very deliberate approach to a very unique case.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (on camera): Tony Snow went a step further, charging the Clintons should not be throwing stones over clemency, adding quote, "I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it."
Kitty?
PILGRIM: Ed Henry, reporting from Washington.
Well, Scooter Libby today paid a $250,000 fine imposed by Judge Walton in the CIA case. A court document shows that Libby obtained a cashier's check Monday, that's the same day President Bush announced his decision to spare Libby from prison. The check includes a special assessment of $400 levied in federal criminal cases.
President Bush's low approval ratings are making it harder for republican presidential candidates to raise money. The latest figures show Republicans badly trailing Democrats in the fundraising battle. It's the first time in years that Democratic presidential candidates are raising more money than their Republican rivals. Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Do you think the voters are uninterested and uninvolved this early in the campaign? Think again.
SHEILA KRUMHOLZ, CENTER FOR RESPONSIBLE POLITICS: This is a record-breaking amount of money and this is a record-breaking cycle. This will be like no other presidential election before.
SCHNEIDER: Look at the amount of money being raised. In the second quarter of the year before each of the past three presidential elections, the total amount raised was well under $100 million.
In the second quarter of this year, the top six candidates, three in each party, raised more than $110 million. This year is unusual for another reason. Democratic candidates are outpacing Republicans.
Second quarter of the year before the 1996 election, Republicans out-raised the Democrat, Bill Clinton. Well, Clinton was running unopposed for the Democratic nomination.
Second quarter 1999 Republicans way out raised Democrats, even though both party nominations were contested. Well, eight Republicans were running and only two Democrats. Second quarter of 2003, Republicans again raised more money, even though nine Democrats were running and George W. Bush was unopposed.
Second quarter of this year, taking the top three candidates in each party, for the first time in recent years, Democrats out-raised Republicans by more than $26 million.
HOWARD DEAN, DNC CHAIRMAN: I'm delighted by the vast amounts of money the Democrats are raising compared to the Republicans.
SCHNEIDER: The figures suggest Democrats are more enthusiastic about their candidates.
JOHN DICKERSON, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, SLATE: You get these stories of people who come to these Obama events and say, I haven't much been interested in politics. But here I will give you the money out of my handbag. That gives the sense of momentum. It gives a sense of movement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER (on camera): The fundraising totals suggest Democrats are more engaged and motivated ever since their midterm victory last November, many Democrats have been ready to vote for president right now. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Schneider. And Bill joins us a bit later for a political roundtable later in the broadcast.
As political pressure grows for a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, another top Republican senator today declared it's time for a change in U.S. strategy. Senator Pete Domenici called for a shift of U.S. troops away from combat operations.
Meanwhile, a top U.S. commander in Iraq, Major General Benjamin Mixon, today said it would be a very bad idea to withdraw our troops immediately. Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. commanders insist the so-called surge, which has only been in full swing for two and a half weeks, is working. But argue that holding on to hard- fought gains will require the 30,000 additional U.S. forces remain in Iraq for the time being. The latest call came in an exclusive cnn.com interview with Major General Benjamin Mixon, in charge of Iraq's Diyala Province, where al Qaeda forces have just been run out of the capital, Baquba.
MAJ. GEN. BENJAMIN MIXON, COMMANDER, MULTINATIONAL DIV/NORTH: All of this has been made possible with the additional forces that have been given to me as a result of the surge.
MCINTYRE (on camera): Well, general, how long can you maintain that, given the fact that there's a lot of pressure back here in Washington to begin some kind of significant draw-down of U.S. forces, if not at the end of this year, by certainly by early next year?
MIXON: Well, we obviously cannot maintain that if the forces are withdrawn. And that would be a very, very bad idea to do a significant withdrawal immediately.
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Mixon's view is shared by almost all U.S. ground commanders, that pulling back too soon would repeat the worst mistake of the past few years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the lesson learned is do not move our force structure down too quickly. Do not draw down too quickly when we think there's a glimmer of success.
MCINTYRE: For the generals it's a battle against the rising tide of disillusionment in Congress. Veteran New Mexico Senator Pete Domenici has become the latest Republican, following Senators Richard Lugar and George Voinovich to call for a change of direction in Iraq to bring the troops home.
SEN. PETE DOMENICI, (R) NM: We need a new strategy for Iraq that forces the Iraqi government to do more or else.
MIXON: I can understand the patience issue. Over here quite frankly, we would like to see things move along more quickly. However, a counterinsurgency operation is a long fight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (on camera): The generals know when top commander, General David Petraeus issues his report card in two months, it will be a mix of good news and bad. That will only increase the pressure to begin a withdrawal. With commanders in the field telling him the surge needs more time, it's a good bet that General Petraeus will have a similar message when he delivers his report to Congress in September. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Jamie McIntyre.
Four more of our troops have been killed in Iraq. Two soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in Baghdad. Two marines killed in an accident in the Euphrates River. Now 13 of our troops have been killed so far this month, 3,591 troops killed since the war began, 26,558 troops wounded, 11, 959 seriously.
U.S. troops today captured six terrorist suspects in the Sadr City neighborhood of Baghdad. The military believes those terrorists have links with Iran's Revolutionary Guards. U.S. troops are hunting insurgents who received specialized training in Iran. The military said Iran has been helping insurgents kill our troops with sophisticated roadside bombs.
Now for more on Iran's meddling in Iraq, I'm joined by General David Grange, and he is one of the country's most decorated former military commanders. Thanks for being here, General Grange.
The meddling with Iran -- meddling is actually a euphuism. Do you think that Iran is a dangerous adversary in Iraq for U.S. troops right now?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Absolutely, Kitty. They are involved deeply in Iraq. They are working their strategy. They are providing weaponry. They are providing skill training to leaders. Some of the extremist groups. It's probably one of our biggest enemies in the region right now with this fight.
PILGRIM: What is your assessment of the Iran's Revolutionary Guard, Quds force, in Iraq right now?
GRANGE: Well, they are very efficient. They have been bolstered by their experiences in Lebanon with the Hezbollah and in their view took on the Israeli Army and actually won. Not really true but doesn't matter. In their mind they did.
They're influencing operations in the Gaza Strip and other places in the region and, again, they are one of the key adversaries, I think, we have in Iraq right now and very effective.
PILGRIM: What is their level of skill, General Grange?
GRANGE: Well, a lot of skill and obviously counter - I mean, insurgency operations to take on U.S. forces with irregular means, especially with improvised explosive devices, other type of bomb making, anti-aircraft and anti-armor weaponry, and just they have studied the operational operations and the tactics of U.S. forces for a long time. And so they advise on how to negate our prowess.
PILGRIM: Now the training camps are inside Iran, correct? And so might there be the need to make a military strike against those Quds Force training camps?
GRANGE: Well, I'm sure there's a lot of people that would love to do that. I think there are camps in Iran and elsewhere, not just in Iran. It would be a bold move to do that. I think that -- in fact I'm very comfortable in saying that plans are there to do those type of strikes if the decision is given.
PILGRIM: Senator Lieberman has said that the United States is engaged in a proxy war with Iran in Iraq. Do you go along with that assessment?
GRANGE: I do. I think Senator Lieberman is very astute in his analysis of what's going on in the region. Iraq, Iran, Israel, Lebanon, et cetera, he is very level headed. He gives his answers and his analysis as a leader in American Congress, not really as a party member. I think he's right on, and that's part of Iran's strategy right now to gain influence in the region and negate ours.
PILGRIM: Do you believe that operations could lead to a war with Iran? This is a high level of discomfort with the American people talking about something like this, but are we edging towards some sort of decision in that respect?
GRANGE: Well, I think so. And here's why. You have the National Security Council that moves very slow. You have got the extreme Iranian leadership moving rapidly. Whether it be for nuclear capability or just the near actions that we have been discussing in Iraq itself.
So what can be done? I mean, they have some vulnerabilities economically, and I think that the best course of action is to persuade European countries to join us in an effort to use that against the Iranian strategy right now. Because if you go too far down the road, the only other means, the only other course of action, will be a military operation. And I don't think Europe and other countries want that. So it behooves everyone to take other types of action now.
PILGRIM: General David Grange, thank you very much for your thoughtful analysis. Thank you.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
PILGRIM: Still to come -- communities in the West and the South take emergency action to deal with near-record high temperatures.
Also a huge increase in the number of foreigners seeking the legal path to citizenship in this country.
And widening wealth gap in Mexico. It is fuelling a massive exodus of Mexicans to this country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A Mexican businessman may have supplanted Bill Gates of the Microsoft as the world's richest man. Carlos Slim is said to be worth more than $60 billion. As Lisa Sylvester reports, it's a glaring example of the lopsided distribution of wealth in Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRSPONDENT (voice-over): There are two Mexicos, one of abject party. Twenty percent of the population lives below the poverty line and nearly 10 percent lives on less than a dollar a day, according to figures from the United Nations. The other Mexico is thriving. Pesos and dollars abundant. The world of the elite class. Among them is Carlos Slim, a Mexican billionaire who according to Reuters has a bigger fortune than even Bill Gates, making him now the richest man in the world.
CAROL GRAHAM, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: In Latin-American where inequality has been so deep and persistent, inequality signals to most people, at least according to my research persistent advantage to the rich and persistent disadvantage for the poor. It's not a signal of equal opportunity.
SYLVESTER: Mexico's wealth gap has been closing in the last decade, but not fast enough. The North American Free Trade aAreement led to farmers leaving for factories in the north, only for those job opportunities it close off when jobs moved to lower wage countries like China. The nation's poverty crisis is fueling illegal immigration to the United States. The group NumbersUSA calls it exporting poverty, a trend that cannot continue.
ROY BECK, NUMBERSUSA: What we saw in the Senate last month was that workers in the working neighborhoods in the United States rising up and saying, no more. We are not going to pay the cost of Mexico's mismanagement of their economy. You're not going to be able to offload forever.
SYLVESTER: Mexico's President Felipe Calderon has recently instituted new anti-poverty programs. But policy experts say until Mexico takes charge of its own future with structural changes, reforming its education system and ending corruption, Mexico will continue to be a divided country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (on camera): We see the images of poverty in Mexico but the truth is, Mexico has more billionaires than Switzerland, according to "Forbes Magazine." Policy analysts say with the natural resources and its wealth in Mexico, its leaders can do a lot more to create opportunities within Mexico, ending the incentive for its citizens to come to the United States illegally.
Kitty?
PILGRIM: Very eye-opening report. Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester.
The United States is the most welcoming nation in the world as evidenced by the large number of legal immigrants and foreign workers in this country. And the number of foreign-born residents becoming American citizens continues to rise. Some officials say the surge is due to immigrants rushing to complete the application process before fees go up. But the number of legal immigrants taking the oath of citizenship has been steadily rising over the past few years. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): A swearing-in ceremony in Florida at Cinderella's Castle. For nearly 1,000 immigrants, America really is the Magic Kingdom.
AMELIO GONZALES, DIRECTOR, USCIS: America is the land that really forgets about who you were. America is only interested in who you are and what you can be.
PILGRIM: And in Baghdad ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Raise your right hands.
PILGRIM: Foreign-born soldiers sworn in as U.S. citizens on Independence Day. Despite decades of hyphenated Americans, Indian- Americans, Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, a big part of the deal is to truly become American.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I absolutely and entirely ...
CROWD: I absolutely and entirely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Renounce and abjure.
CROWD: Announce and abjure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All allegiance and fidelity.
CROWD: All allegiance and fidelity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To any foreign prince.
CROWD: To any foreign prince.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Potentate.
CROWD: Potentate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State or sovereignty.
CROWD: State or sovereignty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of whom or witch.
CROWD: Of whom or which.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have heretofore been.
CROWD: I have heretofore been.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A subject or citizen.
CROWD: A subject or citizen.
PILGRIM: The number of citizens sworn in has been climbing steadily. Some say the national debate over illegal immigration and a pending application fee increase that's spurred many legal immigrants who are eligible for citizenship to make it official and become citizens. But for many it is the American dream that is still highly desired.
GARY GERSTLE, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: If we look at what happened to immigrants who become citizens, we see them becoming much more broadly involved in American politics. We see them much more broadly involved in American life.
PILGRIM: In fact, after the ceremony at Disney World, newly minted citizens lined up to register to vote.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (on camera): Independence Day is one of the most popular days to be sworn in as an American citizen. And 4,000 new Americans celebrated the day yesterday.
Minnesota is the latest state to pass a law requiring U.S. flags to be made in the USA. The new law will require every flag sold in Minnesota to be American made. And it goes into effect at the end of the year. Arizona state law requires flags in schools and public colleges to be American made. In Tennessee, flags bought with state funds must be made in the United States. New Jersey and Pennsylvania are considering similar bills.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Now, if you believe that all American flags should be manufactured in the United States. Yes or no, cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast.
And time now for some of your thoughts. Jean and Pennsylvania wrote to us. "My husband and I had a lot to celebrate about this July 4th. As of July 3rd we are ex-Democrats. Yes we changed our voter registration to independent. Keep up the good work, Lou. Trying to get politicians to do what is best for our country."
And Ed and Eilean in North Carolina wrote to us, "Dear Lou, We celebrated July 4th by declaring our independence from both the Democratic and Republican Parties since neither party represents the interests of the working people of our country. We're looking for new leadership that truly cares about the USA and its people."
Pat in Florida. "I don't understand what the big deal is about Scooter Libby having his sentence commuted. If you look at people Clinton pardoned, you will find liars, thieves and drug dealers. It just proves both parties are corrupt and strengthens the argument to register and vote independent."
We will have more of your e-mails later in the broadcast.
And coming up -- a major U.S. ally issues a strong warning on the threat from communist China's growing military. We will have a report.
Triple digit temperatures spread throughout the West. Is there any leaf in sight? We will have the latest on that. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A dangerous heat wave is gripping much of the western part of the United States. Temperatures have topped 100 degrees in areas not usually known for extreme heat, such as Washington State and northern Idaho. It's not just the high temperatures that are causing problems this week. Severe drought conditions continue to ravage parts of the country. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Riverside, California, 60 miles east of Los Angeles, it's a struggle to keep the grass green. 2007 has been the driest year since record keeping began in the late 1800s. Even Death Valley normally receives more rain. Severe heat warnings are in effect for dozens of counties in California, Arizona and Nevada. Las Vegas exceeded 110 for the third straight day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This heat is oppressive. It will kill you.
WIAN: Parts of Arizona topped 120. Hospitals are preparing for the worst.
DR. KEITH POWER, ST. JOSEPH'S HOSPITAL: We are going to start to see heat exhaustion and heat-related illness, heat strokes are going to be pretty common.
WIAN: California power officials urge conservation to avoid blackouts.
GREG FISHMAN, CALIF. INDEPENDENT SYSTEM OPERATOR: The hydro electronic conditions are not that great this year. We didn't get a good snow pack up in the mountains so we don't have that resource available to us.
WIAN: Utah wildfires burned 30,000 acres, killed three people and forced the evacuation of hundreds of others.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smoke, it was just completely covered and it was actually snowing ash.
WIAN: Heat-stoked fires raging in several other western states. The national drought monitor shows the West is not the only region devastated by dry conditions. In the Southeast all 67 counties in Alabama have been declared natural disaster areas because of the drought. In Tennessee, ranchers are auctioning cattle early because they are short of water and food.
GARY JOHNSON, CATTLE RANCHER: You like to put cattle on the market with more meat and more weight on the bones but at this point in time, we just don't have any other option than put them on the market.
WIAN: The National Drought Mitigation Center reports 30 U.S. states suffered because of the drought in the past month. Those consequences include nearly 500 instances of drought-related fires, water and energy shortages, environmental and agriculture damage, even drought-related societal disruptions, such as park closures and fireworks show cancellations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (on camera): The National Weather Service predicts warmer temperatures and dryer conditions throughout the West and the Southeast for the rest of the month of July, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Casey, what about power outages? Experiencing any of those?
WIAN: Not yet. Power official says this he have adequate reserves right now. However, they are asking Californians and people in Southern California particularly to conserve power so they don't get close to the breaking point and we don't have blackouts like we did a few years ago, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Well, a very different problem in Texas tonight. Parts of the state bracing for dangerous floods as heavy rains continue to fall. Powerful rainstorms have pounded Texas since May 23rd, 11 deaths blamed on the storm. Texas officials say floodwaters have severely damaged or destroyed about 1,000 homes. The flood-damaged areas include 49 counties from North Texas to the Rio Grande Valley. It's roughly the size of the State of Mississippi.
No rain in Utah tonight, where the firefighters are battling to slow the spread of wildfires. Now the fires burned more than 62 square miles of woodlands in northern Utah. High temperatures, dry conditions, fires are expected to be a threat in the area throughout the summer.
And roaring wildfires on the French Riviera were brought under control today. They burned more than 2,000 acres of woodlands just went of Cannes. Several hundred firefighters worked through the night to control the flames. One house was destroyed. There were no injuries.
Coming up -- the White House faces new questions in the Scooter Libby case. Three top political analysts will be here.
And China's rising menace from the rest of the world from aggressive military buildup to its dangerous food imports. We'll tell you all about it.
And a new police raid in Britain. Investigators step up their hunt for more radical Islamist terrorists.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: British police today are stepping up their search for evidence in the aftermath of last week's failed bomb attacks. Now, the police searched the house in Scotland where they believe the bombs were made, according to British media reports.
And a rush hour subway derailment this morning created concern in London, but that derailment was not terror related.
Yesterday British officials lowered their security threat from severe to -- to severe. That's from critical. And the police have eight suspects in custody. All are medical personnel. All are foreign nationals from the Middle East and India.
Well, my next guest says we should listen carefully to the words of terrorists. And he says America has no shortage of enemies, and the warnings should be taken seriously.
Jed Babbin's new book is "In the Words of Our Enemies", and he joins us now.
And thanks for being here.
JED BABBIN, AUTHOR, "IN THE WORDS OF OUR ENEMIES": Thank you very much.
PILGRIM: You know, I really have to ask you about London to begin with. There's very deep concern that highly educated foreign nationals are coming into countries. And, frankly, the fact that they're medical doctors is astonishing.
You've been looking at this a long time. Give us your -- your analysis on this phenomenon.
BABBIN: I think we really shouldn't be too shocked about the fact that these people are well educated, wealthy and risen high in society. The fact is that this is an ideological struggle.
People are not propelled into terrorism only by poverty and disruption. They are propelled by a hatred and a very deeply based ideology that does not allow them any other path in life.
We have to study what these people are saying and what their leaders are saying to really understand what's going on.
PILGRIM: Certain thinkers have described it as an atomization of the al Qaeda movement, this breaking apart into small groups, very small cells. Do you agree with that assessment? And if that's the case, how on earth do you fight it?
BABBIN: Well, yes, I do agree. I think al Qaeda is more, if you will, a brand or franchise than it is really a movement. I don't think they have the command and control to deal with all of these folks around the world.
To deal with it is a bigger and more profound question. Kitty, the real issue is do we define our enemy in a particular way? Do we understand, first, that radical Islam is not a religion; it's an ideology.
Islam is a religion, but radical Islam is an ideology. We have to fight it the same way we fought Nazism and communism, both in the kinetic war, to find and destroy these people where we can.
And also, we have to fight the ideological war. We have to show the world why their ideology is a failure. It promises poverty and death and destruction. Why can't we just say, "We're Americans. We offer opportunity and prosperity." It sounds like a better deal.
PILGRIM: Yes. Now, let me just quote from your book, because I think it's quite brilliant. In your book, you say, "We Americans are great talkers but are often not great listeners. And to our detriment, we assume that we comprehend the mindset of our adversaries."
And you write, "When some dictators threaten to end our way of life, destroy our economy and end our influence over his nation, we usually either ignore him or rationalize his statements in our own context rather than judge him better through an understanding of his culture, history and ideology."
Are we blaming the victim here, though? I mean, are we really that short in understanding? It's almost incomprehensible why people would send their children out as suicide bombers.
BABBIN: Well, let me parse that out a little bit. Because that was a couple of questions.
PILGRIM: Big question, sorry.
BABBIN: No, no. It's OK. I mean, the first issue is, do we really -- are we blaming the victim? I don't think so. We're really just being Americans. We're pretty big-hearted people. We don't like to think evil of people.
And when we see someone like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying we're not going to have Israel on this planet much longer, we're saying, "Oh, come on, it's just puffery."
Well, sometimes it's not. People don't always act in their enlightened self-interest. Sometimes there really is evil in the world.
The second point is there's a lot of people out there who think it's very easy to bash America, and it is. My issue and my job, and what I'm hoping to do with this book, is to help penetrate this and to help separate the real danger from just the noise.
PILGRIM: I'd like to get to another point. And you're hearing this a lot sort of out on the street in conversation.
Many critics of the Iraq war blame the U.S. military presence there for increased anti-Americanism and say that we're actually making the situation worse by being in Iraq. What do you think?
BABBIN: Well, I think there is some measure of truth in that. I think there are people who are attracted to terrorism because we have been in Iraq. However, there is -- there are so many others who are attracted to terrorism for so many other reasons. These people don't hate us only because of Iraq. They have hated us, as I show in the book, for decades and decades. Much longer before this.
PILGRIM: You know, I wish we had 20 minutes to do this. But I have to change the subject to China. Growing military buildup there.
Many people say engagement will work and that will sort of unplug the military aspirations of China. Some say no, we really should keep around (ph) this. What's your view on the rising military dominance of China in the region?
BABBIN: Well, basically we have to look at history. And you know, I think Churchill was right: in history are all the secrets of statecraft. There's no nation in history that's ever risen to superpower status except on a tide of war, and that includes us.
So when we look at China as a merging superpower, we have to see what they're trying to do. I think the issue -- and the White House gets very nervous whenever I talk about this -- but our policy toward China should be containment.
We should go to the nations around China and say, "You don't want to be in their path. We don't want you to be conquered. Let's kind of get together and let's have, if you will, a hawkish diplomacy toward China."
I have to go to Russia. Vladimir Putin, President Bush met this week. Russia's democracy seems wobbly at best. It's very disturbing some of the things coming out of Russia at this point. How worried are you about Russia?
BABBIN: Very. Russia -- you know, Puti-Pute (ph) is not a good guy. He is trying to restore, and he has restored, autocracy. He is very dirty in the international market.
And when Vladimir Putin, as we quote in the book, says that the Iranians are his partners, I think that pretty much says it all. This guy is alive with the terrorist nations. We have to be pretty aggressive. Again, a hawkish diplomacy towards Russia.
PILGRIM: A must-read, this book. Former undersecretary of defense, Jed Babbin, the author of "In the Words of Our Enemies". Absolutely brilliant book. Thank you, sir.
BABBIN: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Still ahead, what's next for former White House aide, Scooter Libby, now that President Bush has commuted his sentence? Our panel of political experts join me for that. All the day's top political stories.
Also, more on rising threats from communist China, from its growing military to its dangerous foods. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Communist China's military and economic expansion is creating foreign policy challenges for the United States and its allies. Australia's prime minister, the latest world leader to say China's growing military power could cause greater instability in the region.
Christine Romans has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From Australia, a rare warning on communist China's military ambitions: "The pace and scope of its military modernization, particularly the development of new and disruptive capabilities, such as the anti- satellite missile, could create misunderstandings and instability in the region."
Prime Minister John Howard addressing reporters.
JOHN HOWARD, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: China's rise is good for China and good for the world. However, U.S./China relations, China/Japan tensions and long-standing flashpoints in Taiwan and the Korean Peninsula will require continuing careful management.
ROMANS: The Chinese foreign ministry responded, as it has in the past, insisting its military growth is defensive.
QIN GANG, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY (through translator): China will be unwavering in keeping the peaceful course of development.
ROMANS: Not so, says Frank Gaffney, an assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration.
FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: Anti-satellite weapons, long-range ballistic missiles, new generations of nuclear weapons. These are things that I think clearly bespeak a long-term Chinese strategy.
ROMANS: A strategy he says meant to challenge the U.S. in the region. Yet, U.S. policy is to engage communist China as a trading partner, with the hope of shaping its rise.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's basically to allow China to grow economically and help it to do so, realizing that will give it the means to have a stronger military but hoping that will moderate its politics faster than it gives it military strength.
ROMANS: It is, O'Hanlon said, a calculated risk.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: But Australia's defense position, many say, is a sign that China's neighbors, and America's allies, are watching China's military buildup with ever more caution -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Christine Romans.
Well, as Christine just reported, communist China continues to build up its military to complete with the United States, but China lags years behind when it comes to product safety standards. That has led to a growing wave of recalls.
John VAUSE has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): So, could you eat pork from pigs force-fed waste water? Drink milk from cows given so many antibiotics it's impossible to make yogurt from their milk? How about a serving of lard made from sewage? Because all of that and much more has been on China's menu in recent months.
Zhou Quin is a dissident writer who's researched this country's appalling food standards.
"The threat is so much more serious than people could ever imagine," he told me. He says many farmers and producers are continually finding new and dangerous ways to cut costs.
ZHOU QUIN, DISSIDENT WRITER (through translator): China has low labor costs, but you can work out how low the price should be. Businessmen should know something is wrong if the product is cheaper than it should be.
VAUSE: Last week the U.S. banned four types of fish and shrimp from China because inspectors found traces of cancer-causing chemicals and antibiotics, including malachite green, which helps fish survive in polluted, overcrowded fisheries. It's still being used, despite being banned here five years ago. While in the U.S., it was banned 24 years ago.
SALLY GREENBERG, CONSUMERS UNION: We have no real sense of the regulatory infrastructure in China, which probably is about 100 years behind where we are in the United States.
VAUSE: And the World Health Organization says time has run out for China to act.
DR. ROGER SKINNER, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: China is at a crossroads. Where I feel, you know, they -- they have to make a decision as to what they're going to do, and it's a decision which cannot be put off.
VAUSE: It's not just food. Consumer alerts have been issued for products, from toxic toothpaste to lead-painted toys. So far this year, 60 percent of all recalled consumer products in the U.S. have come from China.
The government here blames media hype.
"Consumers shouldn't be scared of Chinese products," he says. "They should have a reputation of being good quality, cheap and safe." (on camera) Well, one out of three isn't bad. No one ever said Chinese goods weren't cheap.
John Vause, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Just today, the Consumer Product Safety Commission announced another recall of products made in communist China. Two children's products, Mag Stix magnetic building sets and metal jewelry sets all being recalled. The small magnets are believed to be choking hazards, and the metal jewelry contains high levels of lead.
A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Do you believe that all American flags should be manufactured in the United States? Yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
And up next, I'm joined by three of the best political analysts in the country. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me now, three of the best political minds in the country. In New York, we're joined by former White House political director under President Ronald Reagan, Ed Rollins. And "New York Daily News" columnist Errol Louis. And in Washington, CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider. And gentlemen, thanks for being with us.
Scooter Libby, it is really the topic of the week. A little more fallout. House judiciary chairman, Congressman John Conyers, says he's going to hold hearings. There's this sort of kafuffle over whether, you know, the sentence, the probation was probation if the sentence wasn't served. Where do we come down on this?
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I mean, I think it's over. I think the bottom line is that conservatives are semi-pleased and liberals and members of the Democratic Party are not happy. But it's the president's prerogative to have done what he did and he did it.
As I said in the show in the show last week, Mr. Libby still, he isn't off scot-free. He's still convicted of a felony, and he still has to pay a substantial fine. And they'll work out some form on the probationary situation.
And I think the only thing that's kind of messed it up a little bit is the president certainly is hinting now that he might pardon him. If he was going to pardon him, he should have pardoned him last week.
PILGRIM: Executive rolling action.
ROLLINS: And that's the key.
PILGRIM: You know, actually, Hillary Clinton was criticizing President Bush's handling of the Libby case, and the White House fired back. He said it's a giant case of chutzpah, because Bill Clinton pardoned hundreds in the final hours of his presidency.
Here's what the deputy press secretary Scott Stanzel had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT STANZEL, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: There -- there's an argument to the made that there was special treatment in those 141 pardons issued on January 20, 2001. Marc Rich, Susan McDougal, a Clinton brother, you know.
So it's interesting to me that they would bring up those attacks in this day and try to score political points.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Bill Schneider, are we still trying to score off of this issue? Is it just political sniping at this point?
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, there's no question, of course, politics is involved. There is a difference, however, in the fact that Scooter Libby was in the White House. He was making policy. He was responsible for trying to sell the president's policy, trying to justify it, trying to make arguments for reporters.
Pardoning a person who has been convicted of a crime in the course of a policy-making exercise I think is very different from anything Bill Clinton did, as far as I know.
PILGRIM: Errol?
ERROL LOUIS, COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Not only that. The Bush White House, they flubbed it. I mean, they took a slow holiday or weekend or week, period. Normally, you would just kind of slide this one through. But you know, you can't rewrite the sentence. You can't just sort of pick out -- well, some probation and no jail and so forth. And they're going to end up back in the court.
And so now you've got a problem that Congress really should look into. You know, you can't just start rewriting sentences. A federal judge may, in fact, sort of throw this out and push him further in the direction he didn't want to go, which is a full pardon.
So we haven't heard the last of this, unfortunately.
ROLLINS: The only point I would make is they could have all the hearings they want. The issue is done.
Now, I think to a certain extent, one of the real last black marks on Bill Clinton was the fact that he pardoned all these people at the end of his term, some of which were questionable.
At the end of the day, I think the key thing here is that you never raise your own negatives. And for the Clintons to go out and raise these things again, remind people some of things they didn't like about Bill.
I think the president, as I said, has made the decision. Congress can do whatever it wants and just move on.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about the campaign trail. We have some really fun action in Iowa with the Clinton team out there. Let's listen to what Senator Clinton has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's been so much fun having Bill with me the last couple of days. We've had a great time traveling across Iowa. It is so much like what we did for all those years in Arkansas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: So we're getting a lot of the Clinton team together. Now, does this work or does it not work?
ROLLINS: Sure it works. I mean, Bill Clinton still is one of the most popular presidents for whatever reason. I mean, I may disagree with a lot of the things he did, but people still have great respect and like him. And Democrats particularly. And I think it's a great asset for her.
PILGRIM: There's much discussion over whether he actually overshadows the candidate. So Bill, let's turn to you for a minute.
SCHNEIDER: Well, I agree with Ed. As George Bush's negatives have risen, Bill Clinton's have fallen. And Bill Clinton is now very popular and much admired. You know, while he divided the country, Bush divided it even worse.
So a lot of Democrats in particular -- remember, that's the audience she's speaking to now. Democrats have a lot of respect and even reverence for Bill Clinton, as their most recent former president. So I think it clearly helps her at this point.
PILGRIM: But he's not running. She is.
LOUIS: Well, that's right but she's got, at her side, her husband, who's a heck of a savvy campaigner. And this race until recently, there was even a memo going around that was being floated that Clinton might give up on Iowa and just sort of put all their chips in New Hampshire.
She's ahead in the polls now. She's leading Edwards by a couple of points. It's a must-have state for Edwards. So it's going to turn into a dog fight. Bill Clinton showing up shows that they think they see blue sky. They think they can win it.
PILGRIM: OK. So everybody gave the thumb's up to the double tag team of the two Clintons together.
Barack Obama is saying the American people want fresh ideas. They need to look forward, not backwards. Will he be able to carry that message against Hillary Clinton? That's who he's actually running against at this point.
ROLLINS: He's turned on a lot of people. He's a very exciting candidate. And I think what he' ha proven by both his fundraising and his ability to draw the crowds is he's a player for the long term.
I don't think he's going to win this thing or be, and I don't think he's going to be -- he might be on the ticket. But I think at the end of the day, he's still going to be a player to be dealt with for many, many years to come.
PILGRIM: Bill Schneider?
SCHNEIDER: I think that he understands -- and one of the reasons he's running -- is he understands the political moment.
What Americans want is somebody who can deliver what George W. Bush promised in 1999 when he declared himself a candidate. He said he was going to be a uniter and not a divider. And he completely failed to deliver that.
Americans are longing for someone with that message. Right now, Obama feels he has that message. He talks a language of faith, crossing that partisan division. He is literally multicultural, biracial. He's a new generation of politicians. I think he realizes this could be his moment, and the voters seem to be responding to that.
LOUIS: The problem, of course, for Obama, and he's got -- that's a message that will play well in November, but you've got to get through primary states to get to November. And in the primary states, they don't necessarily want to hear that so much.
So in Iowa, you know, 32 percent for Clinton, 29 percent Edwards, 13 percent for Obama. One point behind undecided. So he's -- it's not taking hold with the rank and file. He's going to have to serve up a little red meat if he wants to get to the main event.
PILGRIM: OK. The other big question out there, Fred Thompson not in the race yet. There was some discussion that he would announce July 4. Didn't happen. So is that an official announcement?
ROLLINS: I think Fred is definitely going to run. He's putting money people and political people together.
I think -- I think they felt the Fourth of July, they'd sort of get lost in the crowd. And particularly with the Libby thing this week. I think he wants to pick his spot. And he might as well wait a little bit longer.
The key thing is he has to start impressing some people on the trail. He's not made any speeches that have turned people on yet, and I think that's the key test. He's got about 90 days to get in this race and show what a great candidate he's going to be to become an alternative to those that are already there. PILGRIM: That's your time (ph). Bill, we have to wrap it up quick. Any quick thoughts?
SCHNEIDER: Fred Thompson, well, he's trying to run as a Washington outsider. That will be a neat trick. He's been a senator, a lawyer, a lobbyist. I want to see how he pulls that off.
LOUIS: If he wants to be in, he'll need to be in by Labor Day.
PILGRIM: All right. We have declared that. All right. Thank you all very much. Ed Rollins, Errol Louis, Bill Schneider, thank you.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and more of your thoughts. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. Ninety-six percent of you say that all American flags should be manufactured in the United States.
Time now for some of your thoughts. And thousands of you are e- mailing us to tell us how outraged you are over the president's decision to commute the sentence of Scooter Libby.
Jerry in Nevada wrote, "Isn't it amazing how quickly President Bush could commute Libby's sentence and has yet to offer any assistance to the two Border patrol agents in jail. Guess that shows who are the haves and have-nots."
James in Florida: "I am so glad the president has seen fit to commute the sentence of Mr. Libby; now it should be easy for him to commute the sentences of our two border agents."
And Ted in Florida: "If the president is going to pardon anyone because the sentence was unfair it should be the two Border Patrol agents!"
Janice in California: "The pardon of Scooter Libby is an outrage! If he can get a pardon, then Border Agents Compean and Ramos should follow immediately."
Thanks for being with us. Join us tomorrow. For all of us here thanks for watching. Goodnight from New York.
THE SITUATION ROOM starts right now with Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Kitty.
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