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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Hurricane Dean Heads For Mexico; Democratic Voters Want Experience or Change?
Aired August 20, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: Hurricane Dean intensifies as it charges toward the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico. Will the hurricane hit this country? We will have complete coverage.
Also, federal agents deport a fugitive Mexican illegal alien who was given sanctuary in a church for a whole year. We will have a special report.
And President Bush holds a summit meeting with the leaders of Canada and Mexico. Critics say it's a new attempt to push forward with plans to create what amounts to a North American union.
All that, all the day's news, and much more, straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Monday, August 20.
Live from New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Lisa Sylvester.
Good evening, everybody.
Hurricane Dean tonight is on a collision course with the Yucatan Peninsula. Dean could grown into a monstrous Category 5 storm before it makes landfall early tomorrow. The hurricane has already killed at least seven people across the Caribbean. Jamaica suffered extensive damage. One Jamaican official said conditions were -- quote -- "absolutely scary."
We begin our coverage with Susan Candiotti -- Susan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jamaica may have been spared a direct hit, but Dean dealt an especially punishing blow to the southern part of the island.
At sunup, the capital city of Kingston already at work trying to clear debris from streets, here unblocking a road to the airport where disaster relief teams will bring in help as needed. Authorities say landslides occurred in mostly rural areas. But so far, no deaths are reported. Sustained winds of 114 miles an hour pealed back roofs.
In Montego Bay and Ocho Rios to the north, less widespread damage.
(on camera): Throughout Jamaica, a curfew remains in effect. So even though everybody is out and about, the stores are not allowed to reopen as yet. It doesn't mean that people are not walking around just to see how everyone fared after the storm, to exchange stories. But some street vendors are back at work.
You had enough supplies to get by?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes. I had enough supplies. I come downtown and I go shopping at the supermarket. And I was well prepared.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): In Montego Bay, tourists unable to evacuate before the storm lined up at the airport to get on the first planes out. This couple here to see their son get married. The wedding was Friday. Then came Dean.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once it started, it wasn't a big deal. We played cards, had some drinks, you know, made a party out of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then, when the electricity went off, and that was that.
CANDIOTTI: Five thousand people filled shelters. Electricity shut down before the storm remains out on the island, with no estimates on when power will be restored.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: And tonight we're back out here at the airport in Montego Bay where, again, they are open for business. But some tourists, we are hearing horror stories from who are being left here, brought here by the resorts without their flights being arranged yet and then they are being told they can't go back to the hotel since their flight isn't ready yet unless they pay additional money which some of them say they simply do not have.
So, they're still trying to work out the wrinkles here. Some people not very happy. But overall on the island, there is much relief that the worst is over and that they escaped a hit that could have been a lot worse, for example, compared to Hurricane Ivan back in 2004 -- back to you.
SYLVESTER: Susan, it sounds like the tourist district then was largely spared there in Montego Bay.
CANDIOTTI: They were largely spared here in Montego Bay, not only here, but in Ocho Rios, in Negril, and frankly in Kingston. So, the areas, the hotels we are hearing, for the most part did not suffer major damage at all. But it is still a mess trying to get in and out of the airport here. They're trying to smooth things out.
SYLVESTER: Susan Candiotti joining us live from Jamaica, Montego Bay.
Let's go now live to Gary Tuchman. He's in Tulum in the Yucatan Peninsula. That's where Hurricane Dean and the storm is expected to make landfall there early tomorrow -- Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lisa, hello to you.
And we're just feeling the first few drops as the hurricane behind me somewhere is starting to make its inevitable move towards the Yucatan Peninsula. This is Tulum. This the home of ancient Mayan ruins that stood for more than 1,000 years, a popular tourist site.
Today, we spent some time here. Usually it's a full parking lot with hundreds of cars. Today there were about six cars there. The tourists are staying away from there. They're already seeking shelter. Tens of thousands of tourists have left the Yucatan Peninsula.
North of where we're standing, 80 miles, is Cancun. Cancun is the number one tourist site in the whole nation of Mexico, $3 billion spent by tourists in the Cancun-Cozumel area out of a total of $11 billion in the whole nation of Mexico. So, you can see economically how big of a deal this will be. But as far as a safety standpoint it will be a big deal, too, because they have experienced some very serious hurricanes here.
Just two years ago, Hurricane Wilma hit the Yucatan Peninsula, left deaths, left millions and millions of dollars in damage. And many hotels were closed for months. So people here are very concerned. They're getting ready. Everyone we see from the richest hotel owner to the poorest peasant is doing something and that's very unusual. A lot of places we have been, people who don't have the means sometimes don't do anything.
But we have seen even little shanties putting wood on their homes. They're trying to do the best they can as this hurricane comes a'calling -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Gary, thanks for that report from Tulum, Mexico. And I'm sure you will keep us updated throughout the evening.
Now, the state of Texas tonight is bracing for the possibility that Hurricane Dean may slam into its coastline. Officials are making plans to deal with any emergency.
Governor Rick Perry says he's confident that Texas can cope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: Local, federal, and state coordination is better than it's ever been. And we continue to learn with each exercise that we have and with every real event that we have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SYLVESTER: National Guard troops are on standby. State and local officials are distributing sandbags and opening emergency centers. Now for the latest projections. They say that Hurricane Dean is unlikely to hit Texas or any other part of the United States. But meteorologists say Dean could change course at any time.
Chad Myers has the very latest on Dean's path from the CNN Weather Center -- Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hi, Lisa.
It's going to go south of Cozumel. It's going to go south of all those populated areas you have ever heard of, the Riviera Maya. All those areas from Tulum southward, they will actually be more in it than, let's say, Cozumel and Cancun.
The eye is going to be well south of these cities, but there is a very large town to the south of here. Can't really get there from there, from Cozumel. You actually have to go all the way to about Chichen Itza and then back down. But Chetumal right there, a very large town. Over 100,000 people in the way of this hurricane, a Category 4 right now, 150 miles per hour.
There will be another hurricane hunter aircraft flying in that storm in case it gets to be a Category 5. And that is the forecast. Forecast to be a Category 5 at 160 miles per hour by 2:00 tonight. Still well into the ocean by 2:00 a.m. But then by about 6:00 a.m. in the morning it will be moving onshore.
Now, the timing really doesn't matter all that much because it will be in the dark one way or the other. The timing and the Cat 4 or 5 doesn't really matter. You can't tell the difference between 155 and 160 or 150 and 155. The damage will be extensive, but the good news is at least it will be not in the most populated nor the tourist areas here that we know best here in the U.S.
But the people that live, and there are a lot of people that live in the Chetumal area here, will be bombarded with north winds to start with at about 140 miles per hour. They may not get the eyewall but it will be very close. And there will be significant damage. This is probably the town that will have the most significant damage so far. We're talking about how it missed Jamaica barely, I mean by literally 20 miles from going right over Kingston, with so much more damage potential.
When you miss the eyewall, you miss a lot of the damage. Like we're talking about remember Miami in Andrew? Miami got hit and there was a lot of damage, but you get down to Homestead, not that far away, 20, 30 miles away, it was devastated. The damage is exponential when you get into the eyewall. And here goes Dean. There it goes across. And Chetumal right there. So about 10 miles north, 20 miles north of Chetumal is where that eye is going to be.
Look at the size of this town and all these people here are in danger, also, not only from the wind, but even though they're on the wrong side of the eye for a storm surge, there is a bay here. And this bay may fill up with water. And there may be some saltwater flooding as well. Everybody thinks about, oh, is there going to be 20 inches of rain? Will there be a lot of freshwater flooding? The Yucatan Peninsula is very -- an interesting place. Almost all of the rivers in the Yucatan run underground. They're actually you -- have to get to them by cenotes.
And if you go to the Yucatan, you can actually swim in these cenotes, big, round holes in the ground. And the rivers are about 100 to 200 feet down below you. But you can see the water flow. So, they don't have freshwater flooding in rivers, like we have here in the U.S. -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Chad, we see these pictures and the storm seems to just to be just gigantic in terms of its width. Is there any chance with that projected path that it could actually move further north and it could actually hit Texas and other parts of the United States?
MYERS: I will put it this way. No computer models that we use are getting it into, let's say, Brownsville, Texas. But that's not out of the question. And Brownsville, Texas, not even in the cone of uncertainty right now.
But things can happen. When a hurricane does interact with the land, kind of like a curveball interacting with the air as it spins toward the batter, if it interacts with a little bit of friction here on the ground, it can turn itself. That's not the forecast, but certainly we will keep watching in case that happens -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Chad Myers, thank you very much for that report. We can't certainly anything for granted.
Now, one picture shows just how enormous Hurricane Dean really is. Astronauts snapped these images of Dean moving menacingly through the Caribbean from the space shuttle Endeavour. The powerful storm even changed Endeavour's return schedule. NASA cut a day from the shuttle's 14-day flight schedule because of fears that the hurricane could force evacuation of the Houston control center.
Today, shuttle astronauts packed gear and checked the landing systems for tomorrow's planned touchdown at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida.
Still to come, much more on Hurricane Dean.
Also, the federal government finally takes action in the case of a fugitive illegal alien who spent a year holed up in a Chicago church.
Casey Wian has the story -- Casey.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lisa, Elvira Arellano in effect dared immigration authorities to arrest her. Today, she's in Tijuana, Mexico, deported, but still vowing to fight for illegal alien amnesty -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: We will have much more on that story in a moment. Also, new developments in the investigation of the brutal schoolyard murders in Newark, New Jersey, a sanctuary city. We will have a live report.
And President Bush holds a summit meeting with the leaders of Canada and Mexico. Is that summit another step toward a so-called North American union? We will have complete coverage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SYLVESTER: Elvira Arellano, the fugitive illegal alien who spent the last year holed up in a Chicago church, was arrested at a rally in Los Angeles and deported back to Mexico yesterday. Arellano took sanctuary in the church with her 8-year-old son to avoid deportation last August.
As Casey Wian now reports, Arellano says she will continue to fight for what she calls immigration reform from the Mexican side of the border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Fugitive illegal alien Elvira Arellano is back in Mexico, deported by U.S. immigration authorities, after a year-long stand-off resulting from her attempt to seek sanctuary in this Chicago storefront church.
JIM HAYES, FIELD DIRECTOR, ICE: ICE is responsible for enforcing our nation's immigration laws and ensuring they are applied fairly. Ms. Arellano willfully violated those laws and must face the consequences of her illegal actions.
WIAN: Arellano was arrested over the weekend in Los Angeles after she attended events promoting amnesty for illegal aliens. Along with her U.S. citizen son, Saul, Arellano became a symbol for both sides of the illegal immigration debate.
EMMA LOZANO, CENTRO SIN FRONTERAS: They were chosen by God and the people to take this position, and they have stood up. And thank God it was them, because they have been carrying the cross for the 12 million undocumented immigrants and the five million U.S. citizen children very well. And we should praise her.
HAYES: We don't think she's a martyr. We think again that she's a criminal fugitive alien who was in violation of the U.S. law.
Certainly, most criminal aliens and most fugitives do not hold press conferences. I think that's certainly gave her an added vulnerability by advising the government of where she was.
WIAN: Arellano was caught sneaking across the Mexican border in 1997. She was deported, re-entered the country, and was re-arrested in 2002. After being convicted of using someone else's Social Security number to obtain a job cleaning airplanes at Chicago's O'Hare Airport, she was again order deported. Instead, Arellano sought sanctuary and publicity, almost daring authorities to arrest her, while pleading to remain in the United States.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement clearly wanted no part of a raid on a church, so it waited until she left. ICE says the arrest took place without incident, adding Arellano turned down the opportunity to take her son to Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Young Saul Arellano is now being cared for by the pastor of the Chicago church and his wife. They say they're heading to Tijuana to reunite Saul with his mother. They also promise to continue their efforts from across the border.
Meanwhile, ICE says Elvira Arellano can only return legally to the United States with permission from the attorney general or the secretary of homeland security -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: So, Casey, let me make sure that I understand this. She essentially entered into the United States illegally. She was deported. She entered again a second time. What made her possibly think that she would not be deported when she left that church?
WIAN: Well, she always said that there was -- that she understood there was a possibility that she might be deported. And you can certainly make the argument that they tried to have her deported by bringing her out into public, by letting the U.S. immigration authorities know where she was.
It's almost like the pro-amnesty advocates wanted to force the government's hand to arrest her, to make her and her son martyrs, if you will, for the amnesty movement -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: It sounds like a bit like public relations ploy to some degree.
WIAN: Absolutely.
SYLVESTER: Casey Wian, thank you very much for that report.
Time now for some of your thoughts. Thousands of you are e- mailing about the arrest and deportation of this Elvira Arellano.
John in Georgia: "Now that Elvira Arellano has been deported, we have only 19,999,999 illegal immigrants to go. I just wish we could say the border is secure. That is the only way to ensure people coming here would do so legally."
Jay in New Mexico: "I was horrified to read that one of Arellano's jobs was cleaning the inside of airplanes. If they let illegals clean the insides of airplanes, what kind of joke is that? National security is a joke."
And Paul in California says, "One down, 20 million to go."
We will have more of your e-mails a little later in the broadcast. Just ahead tonight: another and possibly final arrest in the grisly schoolyard killings in a sanctuary city New Jersey.
And the top two Democratic presidential candidates face off again. Is it a case of experience vs. electability? We will have a special report.
And Hurricane Dean prepares to slam into Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula. We will have an update on this hurricane season's most powerful storm.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SYLVESTER: A sixth suspect is in custody tonight in the brutal killing of three college students in Newark, New Jersey. The suspects include an illegal alien from Peru who was out on bail at the time of the murders. Republican presidential candidate Congressman Tom Tancredo in Newark today said the city's lax policy on illegal aliens was at least partly to blame for the slayings.
Deborah Feyerick reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before he allegedly killed three college students and shot a fourth, Jose Carranza from Peru was already in trouble facing multiple charges of sexually molesting a little girl.
VICTOR VERDA, FORMER ICE AGENT: When I was in ICE, if I would get a call from somebody saying there's a guy we have here who may be illegal and who raped a 5-year-old, I think we would find four agents to go out there and pick him up.
FEYERICK: Authorities say another key suspect captured over the weekend, Nicaraguan Rodolfo Godinez, had also faced weapons and robbery charges. Appearing in a Maryland court today, he's fighting extradition back to Newark. Prosecutors say he will be given bail.
CAROLYN MURRAY, PROSECUTOR: The individual -- any individual's immigration status is a matter that would not preclude them from bail in the state system on a criminal charge. It does mean, however, if the individual has a status issue with INS, that INS might lodge some kind of a detainer if the appropriate facts are there.
FEYERICK (on camera): Newark is what is known as a sanctuary city. And there are a number of them around the country. Authorities, police included, are not allowed to ask someone about their immigration status. That is whether they're here legally or illegally.
There is an exception, and that is when police are investigating a crime.
(voice-over): But, in Newark, New Jersey, as elsewhere, immigration status is usually not part of an investigation. CORY BOOKER, MAYOR OF NEWARK, NEW JERSEY: My police officers do not have the time, nor would I want them to become immigration agents. If we start getting off on tangents, doing things that federal authorities or other authorities should be doing, we're undermining our ability to get the job done.
FEYERICK: Critics at a small rally in Newark today blamed local officials for protecting illegal immigrants, saying both men should have been kicked out after their first arrests.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R-CO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If the alleged assailants are found guilty of these brutal crimes, Newark and its political leadership share a degree of culpability.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FEYERICK: Now, Carranza has pleaded not guilty in connection with the murders. And Godinez has yet to enter a plea.
Immigration and Customs Enforcements has filed detainer warrants for both of the men, which means that, even if they are offered and can post bail, they will not be released because of their immigration status -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: But just the fact that Rodolfo Godinez, that they could still offer him bail, many people would find that absolutely outrageous.
FEYERICK: It's striking, and that's exactly what I asked the prosecutor over the weekend. I said, how is this even possible?
And she said, when they file a complaint, the judge also puts in a bail amount. So, Godinez effectively can be released on $1 million bail. But because of this new detainer warrant, which is where the feds come in, they're going to hold him even if he does come up with the money.
SYLVESTER: It's an amazing story.
All right, thanks very much, Deb. We appreciate it.
Coming up, is the Bush administration endorsing a plan that could threaten Americans' sovereignty? We will have a special report.
Experience or change, which do Democratic voters want? We will bring you the latest poll numbers.
And Hurricane Dean roars towards Mexico -- the very latest on this powerful storm when we return.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SYLVESTER: Hurricane Dean tonight is expected to strengthen to a rare Category 5 storm as it barrels toward Mexico. Beach resorts in the Yucatan Peninsula are bracing for the arrival of Hurricane Dean early tomorrow. The hurricane has already devastated large areas of Jamaica. Across the Caribbean, Dean is blamed for at least seven deaths.
Chad Myers at the CNN Weather Center is tracking the storm.
Chad, what's the very latest? Bring us up to date.
MYERS: Lisa, I think the very latest for the most populated and the most known areas from Cancun, in Cozumel, all the way down to Quintana Roo, and into the Mexican Riviera, the Riviera Maya, that area there is going to have large and damaging waves.
The winds may be 50, 60, even a gust of 79. But the waves may be 30 feet tall in some spots. Now, a lot of them will break offshore. There's a reef there. A lot of them will break. But if you're on the east shore of Cozumel, right there that reef is very, very close to you. And these waves will be slamming onshore, slamming onshore to Cancun, all the way down to Xcaret, Eschbuha (ph), all the areas here down through the Moon Palace.
You're just going to have to stay out of the water. If you're still at that hotel, you couldn't get out of Cancun today, just stay inside. The winds won't devastate you, but the waves could really get you.
This storm is forecast to get very close to Chetumal. That is a town, city, of about 105,000 people. It's continuing to move to the west at about 21 miles per hour. Should make landfall in less than about 10 hours now as a Category 5 storm, or whatever, close enough; 150, 160, you can't tell the difference.
The only good news here is that right along this landfall area, not very many people live there. It's really basically a swamp. But you get a little bit farther inland to Chetumal, only about 20 miles inland, that's where all the people live. It's going to travel across the Yucatan Peninsula, probably knock itself down to maybe a Category 1 or Category 2.
The entire Pemex oil rig refinery unit for the Mexican government, basically, is right here, 14,000 people evacuated from those oil rigs offshore right here from Bay of Campeche, and then on up and then across into Mexico again.
There is still a threat, maybe 2, 3 percent of a turn to the north that could affect the U.S., but that is not the forecast. It doesn't look likely. It does look like landfall in Tampico or at least very close and then a devastating rain event for the mountains here, the Sierra Madre here, probably a lot of mudslides and people not being able to get away from that big-time water. The rivers and the floods there, right around the Sierra Madre, will be devastating for that. That will be a story come next week -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Chad Myers staying on top of our hurricane coverage, appreciate that report. Thank you very much. Now, parts of Oklahoma tonight are cleaning up after Tropical Storm Erin. The storm is blamed for at least six deaths. Rising floodwaters led to the dramatic rescue of one woman in Kingfisher, Oklahoma.
Susan Roesgen has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN GULF COAST CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They say no man is an island, but standing on a rooftop surrounded by water, this man was. The remnants of Tropical Storm Erin were headed out of Oklahoma, but the water just seemed to keep coming and coming and coming.
In the small town of Kingfisher, heavy rains caused the creek to rise 25 feet. The town got nine inches of rain in just a few hours. In Oklahoma City itself, helicopters rushed in to rescue people, often having to hover inches before the choppy waters. Not easy.
JOE HOWARD, RESCUE PILOT: Oh. Oh, no. That's exactly what I did not want to see.
ROESGEN: Seconds after being plucked to safety, this woman fell right back in. They got her the second time around.
HOWARD: We were trying to give her the best, you know, trying to get her to hold on to best that she could. You know, she was really tired at the time and she had just kind of given out on the, you know, let her arms go.
BERNICE KRITTENBRICK, RESCUED MOTORIST: We were just thinking about how quickly we were moving with the water and we were trying to keep posts and such in sight to see whether it was rising and just hoping that there was going to be a rescue.
ROESGEN: Other people depended on boats to save them from rooftops, even crews going out on jet skis. Some rescue and relief workers just couldn't get where they needed to because the roads were impassable.
A.J. CLEMENS, RED CROSS: I was at 86. It was flooded. There's a lake about a mile wide, a mile east of 81. And I-40 is shut down. We -- we just can't get there to help the people that are in need.
ROESGEN: And one more problem. At the peak of the storm, about 25,000 people lost power. It's still too early to estimate just how much damage has been done.
I'm Susan Roesgen.
CNN, Kingfisher, Oklahoma.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SYLVESTER: We'll be tracking the path and intensity of Hurricane Dean 24 hours a day right here on CNN. So make sure you stay with us for complete live coverage.
From Hurricane Dean to politics. President Bush today made a new attempt to deepen U.S. links with Canada and Mexico. The president flew to Canada for a summit meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Steven Harper and Mexican President Felipe Calderon.
One of the issues on their agenda -- the so-called Security and Prosperity Partnership among the U.S., Canada and Mexico.
Suzanne Malveaux reports now from Quebec -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lisa, this is fondly known as "The Three Amigos Summit". It is the third of its kind. We don't expect major announcements. They are really just discussions. We all got -- already got a readout from one of the special assistants to the president, Dan Fisk.
In terms of a meeting between President Bush and the prime minister of Canada, Steven Harper, disagreements. No breakthroughs here. Harper saying, look, that they're going to keep their Canadian forces in Afghanistan until February 2009. Beyond that, he's going to have to get parliament's approval.
President Bush obviously would like that to be a bit longer, but he appreciates the troops nevertheless.
Canadians very frustrated by the new legislation that requires passports to get into the United States. They say that slows traffic, as well as the economy.
But President Bush says that's just the way it's going to be. But he's sensitive about it.
And then, finally, the dispute over northwest passage through the Arctic remains in dispute. Now, Canada claims control over this, but Bush says it's an international passage and a waterway.
And, finally, very quickly, President Bush meeting with the President Felipe Calderon. Frustration over immigration reform. President Bush obviously saying, look, he put forward at least an executive order to try to tighten up the border in some way. Calderon, a big blow to him because the legislation was not passed. It simply died.
And then finally here, this is a major aid package that the United States is going to offer the Mexican government to fight drug trafficking. This is in the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Both of the leaders expressing appreciation about that. And, Lisa, finally, the president saying, look, he's offering any kind of assistance to the Mexican government in the case that Hurricane Dean actually hits within the next 24 hours -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Suzanne, we know that there are protesters gathered there, as well.
What can you tell us about those protests? As I understand, they've actually been kept quite a distance away from the three leaders.
Is that right?
MALVEAUX: Well, they certainly are. There's a 10 foot fence. There's a large perimeter. We're talking about hundreds of protesters, most of them against the participation of Canada, the troops in Afghanistan. Most of them anti-war protesters.
There are some who are protesting the fact that a lot of these talks are between the government officials, as well as business leaders, and don't involve the average worker -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Susan Malveaux, thank you very much for that report.
Now, the White House insists the Security and Prosperity Partnership is not a threat to U.S. sovereignty. Critics of the Partnership remain unconvinced. They say the SPP is an attempt to create an outright North American Union without Congressional oversight.
Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Canada for the second day, hundreds demand their government withdraw from the Security and Prosperity Partnership. Security is heavy as President Bush arrives for his third SPP meeting.
The first was in March 2005 in Waco, Texas; then again in Cancun last year.
The leaders of the U.S., Mexico and Canada promising to integrate their economies by the year 2010, streamlining regulations, with the advice of North America's biggest companies.
Critics say the process is taking place behind closed doors on everything from energy policy, health care, trade and border security.
CHRIS FARRELL, JUDICIAL WATCH: It really is sort of this public policy, academic, governmental set of elites who are making decisions and harmonizing rules and regulations outside the scope of the general public's knowledge.
ROMANS: Border security advocates in this country fear the goal is open borders, to move goods and people between the three countries, a risk, they say, for American jobs and security.
Canadians worry that Canada's rigorous worker and food safety standards will be watered down.
Critics in all three countries fear an erosion of national sovereignty, integrated currency and courts -- something almost akin to the European Union. Scholar Christopher Sands agrees the process has not been transparent, but says the worst fears are not justified.
CHRISTOPHER SANDS, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: No one has proposed a North American Union other than academics and people on the outside of the process. Some of the business community has talked about common currency. But those kinds of things are not official. They're just people raising ideas. The reality is there are three constitutions in North America that prevent us from getting to a kind of stealthy common currency or a stealthy North American Union.
ROMANS: A Commerce Department fact sheet says the SPP will respect the sovereignty of the three nations and will make them "open to legitimate trade and closed to terrorism and crime."
(END VIDEO TAPE)
ROMANS: In Canada, one lawmaker called the SPP "a bunch of unelected committees of bureaucrats operating across borders who, by design, have no oversight from the people of any of the countries."
SYLVESTER: I know transparency has been a big issue when it comes to the SPP, but, you know, you would think that the leaders of these three countries, they would have looked at the vote -- the Senate vote on immigration, where it essentially failed, the comprehensive reform just failed -- and saw that people don't really seem to want to move in a direction of integrating with Mexico and Canada.
ROMANS: From the folks in Washington, the scholars and people who are watching the SPP, at least they're starting to say they think that message is getting through, that they're going to have to be more transparent. They might have to allow non-governmental organizations, citizens' groups to sort of sit in with the big companies and the bureaucrats to talk about changes that might affect the lives of people in these three countries.
SYLVESTER: Well, hopefully they are listening, Christiane.
Thanks very much for that report.
And time now for tonight's poll.
Do you believe the Security and Prosperity Partnership threatens our sovereignty?
Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com.
We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast.
And still to come tonight, more on the possibility of a North American Union. I will talk to two guests on opposite sides of the issue.
Plus, you won't believe what the government is outsourcing this time. And it affects your security.
And among the Democratic presidential pack of hopefuls, one stands for change, the other for experience.
Who will voters choose?
And a Congressman faces assault and battery charges. We'll tell you what happened.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SYLVESTER: In Iraq today, a roadside bomb killed a provincial governor. The attack appeared to be part of a power struggle between Shiite factions. That struggle threatens to destabilize the oil producing southern region of the country.
In Baghdad, a car bomb killed five people in Sadr City. Other bomb attacks in the Iraqi capital killed about 10 others.
And Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki visited the Syrian capital of Damascus today. Al-Maliki wants Syria to stop with the flow of weapons and insurgents across the border into Iraq. Al-Maliki will meet with the Syrian president tomorrow.
The Defense Intelligence Agency is preparing to spend a billion dollars of taxpayer money to hire private companies for intelligence work. The federal government has expanded its use of private contractors in this country and in Iraq.
And as Barbara Starr reports, officials say the increased demands on intelligence resources since 9/11 has left them little choice.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
BARBARA STARR, PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Iran possibly pursuing nuclear weapons and the hunt for Osama bin Laden still underway, the U.S. intelligence community says it's hard pressed to keep up.
So it's increasingly turning to contractors for help. And that is raising questions about profit-making companies becoming an arm of government espionage.
The Defense Intelligence Agency announced it's up to $1 billion to collect and analyze intelligence, all to be done by contractors.
Analysts say there may be conflicting interests in all of this.
JOHN PIKE, GLOBALSECURITY.ORG: They may be working for the government, but they're also working for profit-making entities and they have to keep both of those in mind. And you do have to worry that sometimes they're going to be working for the stockholders first and the taxpayers second.
STARR: Many contractors are former intelligence officials. They can double their wages by leaving the government for a contractor job. Congressman David Price questions whether contractors are doing too much, asking in a statement: "Is it appropriate for private contractors to be responsible for collecting and analyzing intelligence that will be used by the president?"
Senior U.S. officials say there is little choice given the range of threats in the post-9/11 world.
At the CIA and DIA, half of the workforce is now outside contractors and 70 percent of the intelligence budget now goes to contractors, according to a government estimate.
STARR (on camera): CIA Director Michael Hayden says he's trying to close the revolving door between government and industry by limiting the use of contractors. Recently, he even said he didn't want the CIA to become a farm team for contractors. But many still worry that private industry has too much influence over some of the nation's most sensitive espionage work. Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Iraq War is sparking clashes between presidential hopefuls at the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Kansas City.
Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain told veterans today that withdrawing now from Iraq would be a historic mistake. Democratic contender Senator Hillary Clinton countered that the best way to honor U.S. troops is to bring them home.
Democratic hopeful Senator Barack Obama will address the veterans convention tomorrow.
The Iraq War is not the only issue dividing presidential candidates. Take the question of experience versus change that is currently consuming the Democrats.
As Bill Schneider reports, that issue pits Hillary Clinton against Barack Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Some years, voters are looking for experience. That's what got Richard Nixon elected in 1968, when the country was in turmoil.
Other years, voters are looking for change. That's what got Jimmy Carter, a one term governor of Georgia, elected in 1976, after Watergate.
What do voters want now?
They're not sure.
Roughly equal number of Democrats say they want experience and new ideas. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think that Senator Obama does represent change. Senator Clinton has experience. Change and experience -- with me, you get both.
SCHNEIDER: Democrats looking for experience are not unsure which candidate offers it. They prefer Hillary Clinton three to one over Barack Obama.
Obama argues that judgment is more important than experience.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS: Nobody had more experience than Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. And they and the people on this stage authorized this war.
SCHNEIDER: And that Clinton's experience can also be called baggage.
OBAMA: We're going to need somebody who can break out of the political patterns that we've been in over the last 20 years.
SCHNEIDER: Clinton's response?
I know how to handle baggage better than anybody else.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: You know, the idea that you're going to escape the Republican attack machine and not have high negatives by the time they're through with you, I think, is just missing what's been going on in American politics for the last 20 years.
SCHNEIDER: Clinton seems to be holding her own on the change issue. She's running neck in neck with Obama among Democrats looking for fresh, new ideas. Many Democrats remember the Clinton years fondly, especially in contrast to the Bush years.
CLINTON: I want to change the cowboy diplomacy of the Bush administration. But I want to do it in a way that I believe will work, that will get results for America.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Back to the future?
Well, that's one way to talk about change -- Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Thanks for that report.
Bill Schneider from Washington.
Democratic Congressman Robert Filner is facing assault and battery charges after an altercation at a Washington, D.C. airport last night. D.C. police say the Congressman was angry about the time it was taking to get his luggage at Dulles Airport. Filner allegedly pushed an airport employee as he tried to enter a restricted area.
Congressman Filner is scheduled to appear in court October 2nd. And coming up at the top of the hour, THE SITUATION ROOM with Wolf Blitzer.
He is here in New York.
He joins us now -- how are you, Wolf?
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Good, Lisa.
Thanks very much.
Coming up, that killer storm that's a danger to anything in its path. We're eying Hurricane Dean. It's a category four storm right now. It could become a category five in the coming hour. It could soon crash into Cancun and other areas of Mexico. Many residents and a lot of American tourists are fleeing for their lives right now.
In flooded parts of the Midwest, a rescue crew plucks a woman from peril only to lose their grip on her. We're going to tell you how it all ended.
And passengers -- their worst nightmare. Your plane unexpectedly, suddenly bursts into flames. That happened on one major airline. Now it's grounding its entire fleet of the world's most popular plane.
And in Utah right now, loved ones of those trapped miners believe some mine officials are actually giving up hope of ever finding them. And they're outraged.
All of that, Lisa, coming up right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
SYLVESTER: Thanks, Wolf.
Up next, two guests face off over the summit meetings held today in Canada -- a prelude to better cooperation or a loss of our sovereignty?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SYLVESTER: The Security and Prosperity Partnership is one of the top issues at today's North American summit meeting in Quebec.
Joining me now, two people with very different views of the SPP.
Dr. John Fonte is an outspoken critic of the Partnership. He's a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute.
And Dr. Robert Pastor is a leading supporter of closer ties among the U.S., Canada and Mexico. He's director of the Center for North American Studies at American University.
You know, many people have not -- have not even heard about the Security and Prosperity Partnership, but there is a lot of criticism out there. A lot of people believe that will mean a roll back of environmental and worker standards, and that we are just handing over our sovereignty for the rights of this North American Union.
John, I would like you to comment first on that.
What is your response?
JOHN FONTE, HUDSON INSTITUTE: Well, I think the SPP is very bad policy. I don't think a conspiracy is at work. But I think it definitely has long range implications for sovereignty, particularly on border security and immigration policy. We're talking about -- one of the suggestions is to harmonize, to bring together a border security policy -- the U.S., Canada and Mexico.
Well, these are these are policies that are determined by the Congress of the United States, the parliament of Mexico and by democratic bodies. So there's nothing wrong with cooperation.
I am all for cooperation between the three nations of North America.
But the SPP, as it's presented, is very ambivalent. It's very murky. And it's going to cause a lot of bad policy issues.
SYLVESTER: And Robert Pastor, you have often been referred to as the father of the North American Union. You are an ardent supporter of this.
Give us some of your reasons why.
Don't you see this as part of us -- the United States essentially -- and, for that matter, Mexico and Canada -- essentially giving up some of its sovereignty?
ROBERT PASTOR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: No, quite the contrary. Sovereignty means the defense of nation. And greater cooperation with our neighbors means that our country will be defended better and will be both more secure and also more prosperous.
I think if you want to build a wall and to keep out our two most important trading partners, our two most important sources of energy, this will diminish the sovereignty of our countries. Cooperation is absolutely essential.
I never proposed a North American Union. I think that's completely impractical and impossible. I do, however, believe that much deeper cooperation among the three countries is absolutely essential.
SYLVESTER: You know, if you look at the heart of the criticism, a lot of it has to do with the transparency that people feel that these government leaders are not essentially sharing information with the public and they don't know much about it.
John, you, at a recent Hudson Institute event, you said that there was a democracy deficit in terms of the process.
What did you mean? FONTE: Well, the SPP has not been authorized by the Congress. No funds have been appropriated. In fact, recently there was an amendment by Congressman Duncan Hunter and Marcy Kaptur that voted to actually prohibit federal funds being used to have negotiations and have discussions on the SPP. It passed about 360-60.
So there's a lot of opposition in Congress and there's a lot of worry about the fact that this has not been an open process.
SYLVESTER: Robert, how is it that you could possibly expect -- you talk about integration.
How is it that you could possibly expect these countries -- these three very different countries -- at least Canada and the United States on one hand, and Mexico on the other -- to fully integrate when you're talking about the great disparities, whether you're talking about education, talking about per capita income?
A lot of people said that it would be extremely difficult to integrate the economies of these three nations.
PASTOR: That's exactly what's just happened over the last 13 years. Trade among our three countries has tripled. Foreign direct investment has quintupled. Nearly 60 percent of the trade that our three countries have with the rest of the world is with each other. That's what you mean by economic integration.
Our firms are increasingly North American in scope. Our cars have parts made in all three countries. So there is a process underway and the people actually are behind the process.
The protesters represent a very small, very loud, but very unrepresentative sample of strong feelings among our three countries. You know, there are 500 million border crossings among our three countries each year. The principle destination four tourism is each other's countries. So a process of...
SYLVESTER: Well, Robert, time is running out...
PASTOR: ...economic...
SYLVESTER: I just want to -- I just want to ask you one thing, though.
When you talk about trade, I mean it's undeniable that since NAFTA, we have seen an enormous trade deficit.
How would you respond to that?
And, John, if you could weigh in really quickly, too, because we're running out of time here.
PASTOR: Well, the trade deficit is partly a product of exchange rates. And we have an $800 billion trade deficit with the world, a relatively small amount with our two neighbors.
The important thing in trade among our two neighbors is the degree to which our companies are -- and trade is occurring between...
FONTE: One problem, if I may here...
PASTOR: ...the (INAUDIBLE) between firms.
FONTE: One problem with the SPP is the suggestion of one border for North America. That's both in the SPP recommendations and in the broader discussion. We should really need -- a North American border in the been beginning would be fine as long as you had an even stronger American/Mexican border and American/Canadian border.
But there is talk of one card where you could get a cheaper, easier border identification to get through. This would be an open invitation to fraud. So this is very bad policy.
There's also a discussion of labor mobility, which means essentially open borders within North America.
The Congress of the United States just essentially voted a few months ago, voted this down overwhelming defeating the Kennedy/Bush/McCain Bill, which would have called for that greatly expanded guest workers and amnesty.
SYLVESTER: All right, gentlemen, we are out of time.
So, John, it looks like you get the last word.
Robert Pastor, John Fonte, we appreciate both of you gentlemen for joining us.
PASTOR: Thank you, Lisa.
SYLVESTER: Thank you very much.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and some more of your thoughts.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SYLVESTER: And now the results of tonight's poll -- 98 percent of you say the Security and Prosperity Partnership threatens our sovereignty.
More of your thoughts now.
Roger in Indiana: "The U.S. economy is great, with lots of exploitable, illegal labor, cheap foreign imports and trade agreements that allow businesses to outsource virtually their entire staff. Business is booming. For the American worker, well, he just hasn't adjusted to being poor and jobless yet."
Bobbi in Illinois writes: "Sure, the U.S. economy is fine, if you live in China." Spencer in Illinois says: "Thank you so much, Lou, for continuously talking about illegal aliens. We often hear of people being highly educated and it amazes me how many of these people do not know what illegal means."
Each of you whose e-mail is read here will receive a copy of Joseph Califano's book, "High Society."
Thanks for being with us tonight.
Please join us tomorrow.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" starts now, with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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