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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Interview With Wisconsin Congressman James Sensenbrenner; President Bush Vetoes Children's Health Care Bill
Aired October 03, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: new concerns that our corporate elites are selling our secrets. Communist China could be gaining access to vital U.S. defense technology.
The opposition is rising. New York's governor plans to give drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. The author of the Real I.D. Act, Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, is my guest.
And the toy industry insists this holiday season will be safe, but can parents believe that? Two of the country's leading toy safety experts will join me. We will have all of that and much more straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Wednesday, October 3.
Live from New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.
President Bush today vetoed a big expansion in a health insurance program for children. The president said the expanded program would not give poor children the help they need. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said the president's veto was heartless. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Democrats will continue pushing for the expanded program.
We begin our coverage with Ed Henry at the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, Republicans are very nervous that conservative voters will stay home in 2008, like they did in 2006, because of anger about runaway federal spending. So Mr. Bush is trying to restore the mantle of fiscal responsibility, but he may lose those political gains because of Democratic allegations that he's doing this and saving the money on the backs of children.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): In the privacy of the Oval Office, away from the glare of cameras, the president vetoed a bill expanding a popular health program for kids, a move so controversial within his own party with 45 House Republicans voting against him, the president knew he had some explaining to do at a town hall meeting in conservative Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I wanted to share with you why I vetoed the bill this morning, poor kids first. Secondly, I believe in private medicine not the federal government running the health care system.
HENRY: Mr. Bush charges the Democrats' $35 billion plan is so massive middle-class children will jump from private insurance to the government dole, leaving poor kids in the dust.
BUSH: The intent of the program was to focus on poorer children, not adults or families earning up to $83,000 a year.
HENRY: Eager to restore Republicans' credibility on fiscal conservatism, the president calls the Democratic plan a budget buster, claiming his $5 billion increase would suffice.
BUSH: Be fiscally responsible, set priorities with your money and keep your taxes low.
HENRY: But Democrats note the president didn't veto any spending bills when Republicans were running Congress. So, he's finding religion a bit late in the game.
REP. PETER DEFAZIO (D), OREGON: After an orgy of borrowing, spending and misspending on many dubious things, his target 10 million low-income kids.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now, the president signalled he may be willing to compromise by saying he's willing to put a little more money on the table in his negotiations with Democrats, but Republicans strategists expect the president is going to have pony up a bit more money than that to get a deal done because the political pressure is going to start getting intense on Republicans -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: It will be a very, very tough fight. Thanks very much, Ed Henry.
Well, Democrats were absolutely furious with the president for vetoing the bill and they called the president's action a national disgrace. They promised they would try to override the veto. It's unclear those Democrats can win enough Republican support to force the president to back down.
Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Within minutes of the president's veto, battle-ready Democrats unleashed a barrage of criticism.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: This is probably the most inexplicable veto in the history of the country.
REP. EDOLPHUS TOWNS (D), NEW YORK: It is a shame and a national disgrace. REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: The president is refusing to spend $7 billion a year on children's health, while insisting on $10 billion a month in Iraq.
BASH: But some of the most stinging swipes at the president came from fellow Republicans who support expanding the children's health program.
SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: From their position, it was either my way or the highway. Well, that's not how the legislative process works.
BASH: In the House, Democrats immediately began a mad scramble for votes to override the president's veto, voting to delay taking up the veto override for two weeks to give Democrats time to pressure Republicans for votes.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Many of them are very, very uncomfortable about having to make this choice of sticking with the obstinance of the president on this issue or voting for America's children.
BASH: To successfully override the president's veto, Democratic leaders say they need 15 Republicans who opposed expanding SCHIP to change their votes. They're already running radio ads against eight vulnerable eight GOP congressmen, like Randy Kuhl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
NARRATOR: Congressman Kuhl has a simple choice, give 10 million children the health care they need or turn his back on those children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Congressman Kuhl calls that crass politics and thinks his constituents won't buy it.
REP. RANDY KUHL (R), NEW YORK: It's not affecting me at this point and I don't expect it will. I believe in basic things and one of them is a private health care plan that people have a choice and that's what this bill does not do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Some Republicans privately admit it is hard to compete with the Democrats' mantra that they're turning their backs on children, but GOP leaders in the House insist that no matter how hard Democrats try, Republicans will have enough votes to uphold the president's veto -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Dana Bash. Thanks, Dana.
Also on Capitol Hill today, the Senate voted to add $3 billion to the defense appropriations bill to pay for improved border security. Now, the money includes funds to build 700 miles of new fencing along our nearly 2,000-mile-long border with Mexico. One leading Republican, Senator Johnny Isakson, said there is no greater domestic issue in this country than the problem on our southern border with Mexico.
President Bush today praised a new agreement for North Korea to scale back its nuclear weapons program. Now, under the agreement, North Korea pledged to dismantle its nuclear facility at Yongbyon by the end of this year.
Pyongyang also agreed to release full details of its nuclear program. So far North Korea has refused to give up its stockpile of nuclear weapons. Independent analysts say North Korea has as many as a dozen nuclear weapons.
Well, military commanders tonight say they're confident the U.S. missile defense system could respond to any North Korean attack. This new optimism follows what the military calls a successful missile defense test last week. Many critics, however, of the program, say the Pentagon did not conduct the test under realistic conditions.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: OK, imagine North Korea launches a nuclear-tipped long-ranged Taepodong missile towards the U.S. In reality, this is the view from a target missile leaving Alaska behind for last week's missile defense test.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have a launch.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says Friday's test was designed to mimic a North Korean attack and showed the U.S. can now react within minutes. Streaking into the California sky, this interceptor missile quickly reaches a closing speed of more than 10,000 miles per hour. What happens next, the Pentagon argues, could be what some day saves a major American city from nuclear destruction.
Watch that thermal imagery again. It shows the actual kill vehicle colliding with the dummy warhead in space, a bullet hitting a bullet that skeptics said was impossible.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL TREY OBERING, DIRECTOR, MISSILE DEFENSE AGENCY: It's a major step forward in being able to show that we have a system that does work.
MCINTYRE: General Obering told CNN that with 23 interceptor missiles on standby, three in California and 20 in Alaska, the system is already providing a rudimentary missile shield against North Korea.
OBERING: The crews are trained and certified and ready. The sensors in Alaska as well as California, are ready. So, yes, it could be used, if need be, for an attack.
STEPHEN YOUNG, UNION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS: What they're claiming is they're ready for the World Series. The reality is they're still playing little league baseball. MCINTYRE: Stephen Young of the Union of Concerned Scientists thinks the tests are phony, so tightly controlled, they prove nothing. And, in any event, he argues, North Korea would have no problem overwhelming the $100 billion shield by launching several missiles at once or using simple, cheap, low-tech decoys.
YOUNG: The system can't tell a difference between a Mylar happy birthday balloon and a nuclear warhead in space. They simply travel at the same speed. They look identical. You can do any number of things to fool this system. It simply can't work in the real world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: General Trey Obering bristles at the charge that his tests are rigged, that he in effect cheating. And he points out that the next test will be more challenging and include decoys.
But his fallback argument, Kitty, is that however imperfect the defense is, if it manages to save one American city, it will be better than nothing, in fact, a lot better than nothing -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Jamie, does North Korea have any missiles in the wings that might be a threat?
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, the U.S. military keeps a close watch on North Korea and so far it has seen none of those Taepodong missiles ready for launch any time soon. You know, they have to put them out on a launch pad. It's pretty obvious when they're going to launch them. And right now they don't have anything that is ready to go.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks very much, Jamie McIntyre. Thanks, Jamie.
In Baghdad today, insurgents tried to assassinate the Polish ambassador to Iraq. The ambassador was wounded when three bombs exploded near his convoy. Three people were killed. The ambassador was airlifted to the hospital in a helicopter operated by the private security firm Blackwater USA.
Now, Blackwater is at the center of multiple investigations over its role in a shooting incident last month that left up to 20 Iraqis dead.
Still to come, Republicans blast the New York governor's plan to give drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. And Bill Tucker will have the report -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, you would never know it was a plan to give driver's licenses to illegal aliens, if you listen to the governor. But his opponents made that very clear today -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks, Bill. We will have that report coming up.
Also Senator Hillary Clinton passes a significant milestone in her presidential campaign. Is the Clinton juggernaut unstoppable? And Senator John McCain gains ground in his battle to win the Republican nomination. Senator McCain will talk to us, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Clinton juggernaut is now financial, as well as political. In addition to her fund-raising skill, the senator has reached a significant milestone.
And, as Bill Schneider reports, the latest poll shows Clinton breaking through the 50 percent support barrier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): For the first time, a majority of Democrats supports Hillary Clinton for the party's nomination. Senator Clinton's support in the "Washington Post"/ABC News poll has climbed to 53 percent, 33 points ahead of her closest competitor, Senator Barack Obama. That establishes Clinton as the clear national front-runner.
Being front-runner means being the target of criticism from other Democrats.
JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I heard Senator Clinton say on Sunday that she wants to continue combat missions in Iraq. To me, that's a continuation of the war.
SCHNEIDER: It also means being the target of satire on NBC's "Saturday Night Live."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: And now a word to my seven fellow Democratic candidates for president, those I'm about to defeat for our party's nomination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER: But does it mean she's likely to get the nomination? Well, yes, if you look at the record, which we did going back to 1980. Every candidate who has gotten majority support in polls the year before the election has gone on to win the nomination, Al Gore and George Bush in 1999, Bob Dole in 1995, George H.W. Bush in 1991 and 1987 and Walter Mondale in 1983.
One partial exception -- in 1979, most Democrats supported Ted Kennedy for the 1980 nomination, until the Iran hostage crisis that November. Then, most Democrats switched to Jimmy Carter, who went on to get the Democratic nomination.
What's behind the Clinton surge? Fifty-seven percent of Democrats think she's the candidate with the best chance to win the White House. That number went up 14 points in September. She also leads as the candidate who best reflects the Democratic Party's values. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: In the Republican race, Rudy Giuliani's the front- runner with 34 percent. Republicans pick Giuliani as the most electable contender, but only 23 percent say he best reflects Republican values. They're not sure who does.
Giuliani looks like a winner to Republicans, but many Republicans are not sure he's one of them. That is not a problem most Democrats have with Hillary Clinton -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Schneider. Thanks, Bill.
Well, Senator Clinton also has a substantial lead in the nationwide average of all the major polls and among Democrats, Senator Clinton is way ahead of Senator Barack Obama. She has 44 percent. John Edwards follows with 14 percent. Now, unlike the Democrats, there is no clear leader among the Republicans. Rudy Giuliani ahead with 33 percent, followed by Fred Thompson and Senator John McCain.
In that poll of polls Senator McCain has gained ground in the past few weeks. What is fueling that rise and what does Senator McCain think about the controversial presidential veto on the expansion of child health insurance?
John King is with the senator on the campaign trail in South Carolina -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And, Kitty, we had a chance to speak to Senator McCain today.
He is here in South Carolina. He says he's feeling more optimistic after several months which as you noted he fell in the polls. He once was the Republican front-runner, now itching his way back up, but still struggling, Senator McCain voicing confidence as he shared his opinions with us on a number of issues, ranging from the war in Iraq to that veto earlier today you mentioned.
Senator McCain said he agrees with many conservatives who describe this president, George W. Bush, as a Johnny-come-lately to the message of fiscal conservatism. Still, Senator McCain said the president made the right call today in vetoing those Democratic plans to greatly expand a children's health care program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Right call by the president. It's a phony smoke-and-mirrors way of paying for it. We have laid a debt on these same children that we're trying to -- that we're saying we're going to give health insurance to.
The American people have rebelled against out-of-control spending. If they can find a legitimate way to pay for it, I would consider it. But it's also now, what was supposed to be for low- income Americans is now up to 400 percent of the poverty level, just like the Medicare prescription drug program, an unfunded liability. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: So, supportive of the president there in his veto on the so-called SCHIP program, but very critical of the president on another major issue of the day. That is the controversy over those Blackwater private security guards, contractors in Iraq, and the excessive force many believe they have used in several recent incidents.
Senator McCain was asked about that controversy. And he said the root of it goes back to the decision made four years ago by President Bush and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to send in so few troops in the initial invasion force.
Had that initial force been larger, Senator McCain says we would not asking these questions about Blackwater today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: We should have listened to General Shinseki. We should have listened to all of those people in the military and, if I may say, a bit egotistically, to me.
I came back in August 2003 and gave a speech that we don't have enough boots on the ground. We don't, and we're going to fail, and we need more.
And the former secretary of defense and the administration, Wolfowitz, the president, the vice president, and -- continued to say things like, a few dead-enders, stuff happens, last throes. And Americans, for nearly four years, finally became frustrated and angered and saddened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: It was a very difficult summer, of course, for Senator McCain, his views on immigration among the reasons his support has fallen substantially among conservative Republicans, but, Kitty, again, he says he's more optimistic in recent days. He senses more energy in his crowds, acknowledges he still has quite a bit of work to do, but he says he still remains confident he can win both New Hampshire and South Carolina and go on to win the Republican nomination -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: John, he's coming up a bit in the polls. How's his fund-raising going?
KING: He raised between $5 million and $6 million in the last quarter. His campaign hasn't put out the final numbers yet. We are told it will be closer to $6 million when they finally put them out. That is a better report for him than in the previous months, when he was struggling and slipping in the polls. Still not enough to keep up with the Romneys and the Giulianis, even the Fred Thompsons in the race.
But he insists that it is a sign of progress and a turnaround, and his campaign says there are many fund-raising events scheduled in October already and they hope the numbers will head up as his poll numbers have inched up a little bit in recent days -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks. Thanks very much, John King. Thanks, John.
Coming up: growing indignation over a plan to give driver's licenses to illegal aliens. We will have a report and we will also talk to Congressman James Sensenbrenner, the author of the Real I.D. Act.
And controversy over a push to approve a maritime treaty that could threaten American sovereignty. We will have a special report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Rising outrage tonight over a treaty that opponents say threatens U.S. sovereignty and also vital national interests. The Bush administration and leading senators want the Senate to sign the U.N. Law of the Sea Treaty. But opponents say that treaty will give international bureaucrats control of two-thirds of the world's surface.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before the Senate Foreign Relations testimony in favor of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
GORDON ENGLAND, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: It's very helpful for our military to understand exactly what the rules are as we go around the world and what our limits are in terms of going around the world.
ROMANS: President Ronald Reagan rejected the treaty in 1982, and some conservatives argue it should be rejected today. This ad is from a U.N. watchdog group. Opponents say the treaty would subject the U.S. to more international tribunals and arbitration panels.
STEVEN GROVES, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: This bureaucracy is going to control the surface of the ocean, the seabed as well as the atmosphere above the ocean.
ROMANS: The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, says the treaty undermines U.S. sovereignty, is a back door for global environmental activists, is yet another unaccountable international bureaucracy, undermines American intelligence gathering, and is unnecessary. The U.S. Navy already enjoys international navigation rights by customary practice.
SEN. JIM DEMINT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The theory is good, but I think it's unreasonable for us as we look at the other bodies that we're a party of to submit ourselves again to an international group.
ROMANS: Senator Richard Lugar has called opponents of the treaty amateur admirals and cited Russia's recent flag planting under the North Pole as reason to join this international authority.
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), INDIANA: Russia is already making excessive claims in the Arctic. And until we become a party to the convention, we will be in a weakened position to protect our national interests in these discussions.
ROMANS: A view echoed by the State Department.
JOHN NEGROPONTE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States is at a distinct disadvantage in relation to such parties. As a non- party, we are not currently in a position to maximize U.S. sovereign rights over the shelf in the Arctic or elsewhere.
ROMANS: The Navy has long been a supporter of the treaty.
Christine Romans, CNN New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The Senate Foreign Relations Committee will hold another hearing on the Law of the Sea Treaty tomorrow. The witnesses will be supporters and opponents of the treaty from outside the federal government.
Well, in a moment, we will tell you about another threat to U.S. sovereignty. Communist China could soon own a stake in a U.S. computer networking company. Critics say that poses a direct threat to our national security.
We want your opinion. In our poll tonight, we're asking, do you believe the federal government should allow a U.S. company with sensitive military communications technology to be sold to communist China, yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We will bring you the results later in the broadcast and we will also bring you special report on this issue in just a moment.
Also ahead, buyer beware. Can parents trust the toy industry on safety? Two leading safety experts will join us.
And the battle over driver's licenses for illegal aliens. The author of the Real I.D. Act, Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, will be here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The outcry continues tonight over New York Governor Eliot Spitzer's plan to issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens. State Republicans are threatening to sue over the measure and they held a hearing on the issue in New York City.
And, as Bill Tucker reports, the lawmakers heard angry testimony from opponents of the governor's plan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): The hearing in New York City began with a simple point.
JAMES TEDISCO (R), NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLYMAN: They're illegal aliens in New York State. They're breaking the law. Now, rewarding that, I don't know if it's an incentive to continue to become a citizen, and I don't think it makes us safer.
TUCKER: It was a point that many other witnesses kept coming back to.
MIKE CUTLER, FORMER INS AGENT: And, again, I will go back to this point. Illegal aliens don't even have the right to be here. Why should we then provide them with opportunities to conduct business as usual, if we're trying to deter illegal immigration?
TUCKER: The determined use of the word illegal by Governor Spitzer's opponents was no accident. The governor avoids the word. He repeatedly insists that he wants to grant driver's licenses to immigrants.
Mariann Davies represents a Hispanic coalition opposed to illegal immigration. She finds the lack of distinction insulting.
MARIANN DAVIES, "YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME": We're talking about illegal aliens. Illegal aliens are those foreign nationals who are not here under the color of law. They were either -- came here without permission or overstayed a visa. And, yes, I find that offensive. This is not for immigrants, this is for illegal aliens.
TUCKER: Supporters of Governor Spitzer argue that the plan simply recognizes the reality that illegal aliens are already on the roads and driving without licenses.
DONNA LIEBERMAN, NEW YORK CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: This a plan to allow anybody who lives in New York to drive legally, as long as they know how to drive and can provide proof of their identity.
TUCKER: No one knows what documents Spitzer will allow undocumented immigrants to obtain a driver's license. A valid foreign passport is likely one. Matricular consulares cards issued by the Mexican consulate is, perhaps, another -- a card that critics charge is easily counterfeited, like this one, made for Governor Spitzer especially for the occasion.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TUCKER: Opposition to the governor's plan is not partisan nor is it limited to politicians in the state. Tomorrow, the county DMV clerks are hold a meeting in the state capital of New York, Albany, to organize their opposition to the potential rule change.
And, Kitty, of course, we'll be there to bring there to bring you the latest on this story as it develops.
PILGRIM: And this absolutely puts New York State out of compliance with The Real I.D. Act, doesn't it? TUCKER: Completely. It moves them further and further away from compliance with Real I.D. Supporters say, that's fine. They believe Real I.D. is going to by the wayside and it will never be an issue.
PILGRIM: That it unbelievable.
Thanks very much.
Bill Tucker.
Thanks, Bill.
Well, New York drivers' licenses, under the Spitzer plan, will likely not meet the requirements, as Bill said, of the real I.D. Act. Real I.D. sets guidelines for national standards for drivers licenses. States that want to participate in Real I.D. are required to meet those standards by the end of 2009.
This program is intended to make it more difficult for terrorists to obtain I.D.s. Congressman James Sensenbrenner is the author of the real I.D. Act.
And he joins me now.
And thank you very much for being with us, sir.
What do you think of Governor Spitzer's proposal -- which, by the way, he says doesn't require any legislative action. This is just a statement that he's made -- that he declares as a new rule.
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: The effect of Governor Spitzer's proposal is to force every New Yorker who wishes to board a plane, get into a courthouse and maybe even open up a bank account under a federally ensured institution, to spend $97 to get a passport. The real I.D. Act is voluntary. States that comply have their drivers licenses be valid for federal identification purposes. States that don't comply -- and that apparently is the governor's plan -- are forcing their citizens to get another form of federal I.D. so that they can use it for federal purposes, such as I described.
I think when the people of New York find out that all of them are going to have to spend almost $100 to get passports if they want to get on a plane, they will rise up in arms. And they should.
PILGRIM: Yes. That will definitely be a public backlash. And we're hearing quite an outcry now.
There are eight states that currently don't require applicants to prove that they're legally in the country. That's Hawaii, Maine, Maryland Michigan, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah and Washington. New York used to have the absolute strictest standards for driver's licenses and -- under Pataki -- and they're rolling those back.
Do you think that New York State is regressing in terms of security for this country? SENSENBRENNER: Well, obviously. And the 9/11 Commission recommended that we do something similar to real I.D. because they pointed out that the 9/11 hijackers had a pocket full of drivers' licenses that were issued by a whole bunch of states. And they said very clearly that identification documents are as important to terrorists as explosives.
Now, listening to what Spitzer and his supporters are saying, there's a provision in the real I.D. Act that allows states to issue driving permits to illegal immigrants, which are not valid for I.D. .
Now, if the governor wants to prevent people who are legally here with New York drivers' licenses from getting passports or other things, then he ought to use that part of the real I.D. Act and issue illegal immigrants a driving permit that very clearly states on the face of the permit that is not valid for federal I.D. purposes.
PILGRIM: That would seem to be a reasonable way to go.
This what Governor Spitzer said about the 9/11 Commission, who recommended the real I.D. Act.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ELIOT SPITZER (D), NEW YORK: As we've seen, 9/11 has been the excuse for so much bad policy. Yet some have called on it one more time to strike fear in the public consciousness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Tamper-proof identification seems like a pretty sensible judgment in the wake of 9/11. And yet you have Governor Spitzer criticizing that decision.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, of all the people who shouldn't be criticizing that decision, it should be the governor of the state that suffered the biggest losses in 9/11. Now, this commission was a bipartisan commission. And, as a matter of fact, one of the first bills the Democrats in Congress passed H.R. 1, was to, as they said, fully implement the provisions of the 9/11 Commission report.
Evidently the governor of New York hasn't got the message from his Democratic colleagues down here in Washington.
PILGRIM: Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, thank you for coming on the program to talk about a critical issue to this country.
Thank you, sir.
SENSENBRENNER: Thank you.
PILGRIM: And still to come tonight, selling our secrets to a Chinese company with strong ties to the Chinese military. We'll have a special report.
And buyer beware -- holiday toy sales are just around the corner. That raises new concerns about a flood of dangerous and poisonous toys made in China.
We will have two leading toy safety experts to talk about that.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: More U.S. defense technology may be falling into the hands of Communist China. A Chinese company with ties to Beijing's military will soon have access to sensitive information -- information that could threaten our national interests.
This comes months after computer attacks on the Pentagon were held, allegedly by Chinese hackers.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 3Com announced a deal that places a minority share of the U.S. computer networking company into the hands of a Chinese firm called Huawei.
James Mulvenon advises the U.S. intelligence community and he worries this deal will compromise U.S. national security.
JAMES MULVENON, CENTER FOR INTELLIGENCE RESEARCH: I think that the Huawei merger with 3Com presents a pretty significant threat to U.S. national security because of Huawei's ties with the military and what that might mean for China's ability to conduct computer network attacks against the United States.
SYLVESTER: Huawei's founder is a former Chinese soldier. One U.S. defense official is quoted as saying the company supplies the Chinese military with communications networks. Huawei denies that.
3Com provides U.S. government agencies with network wireless security including the Pentagon.
Nuclear arms control expert, Gary Milhollin says the business deal could potentially give Huawei access to the Defense Department's computer network capabilities.
GARY MILHOLLIN, WISCONSIN PROJECT ON NUCLEAR ARMS CONTROL: The issue is access to technology. And the issue is getting U.S. technology on the cheap, taking it home and using it against us -- which is what Huawei has done in the past.
SYLVESTER: According to an Iraq Study Group report, Huawei violated U.N. sanctions by providing transmission equipment switches to Iraq. Critics of the deal say it should be reviewed by the Treasury Department's Committee On Foreign Investment in the United States, which reviews commercial deals for national security implications.
The Treasury Department tells CNN: "It is important that the CFIUS process is conducted in a professional and non-political manner. Therefore, I cannot comment on specific transactions or whether any particular companies have or have not filed with CFIUS."
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SYLVESTER: Now, Huawei's U.S.-based spokesperson said he would try to get a comment from headquarters in China. But the company has not yet responded. And 3Com did not return any of CNN's calls. But 3Com's chief financial officer, in an interview with the Dow Jones News Wire, said Huawei "would not be involved with the day to day management of the business" -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Thanks, Lisa.
Joining me now for more on this threat this proposed merger poses to our national security, is a leading authority on Communist China, author Gordon Chang.
Gordon is the author of "Nuclear Showdown" and also "The Coming Collapse of China".
And, Gordon, thank you so much for being with us.
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "NUCLEAR SHOWDOWN": Thank you.
PILGRIM: You know, this is a disturbing development. This is very sensitive technology with military applications.
Are you convinced that this being scrutinized properly and among the levels of government it should be?
CHANG: Well, not really. You know, Huawei is one of the least transparent Chinese companies. And this is not a commercial transaction. This is an attempt to get U.S. technology through the markets. And that's just not right.
And you look at Huawei. It came from nowhere, it's grown too fast, it has links which are much too close to the Chinese military. So even if it isn't a front company for the People's Liberation Army, we know that it's going to cooperate with Beijing.
PILGRIM: Yes.
It is not an independent commercial enterprise, is it?
It's run by people that actually have ties to the military.
CHANG: And that's how this company grew, because it grew on the back of the People's Liberation Army, doing government functions that normally would be done by government agencies. They're done by Huawei. And, really, that means -- that shows the close connection between Huawei and the People's Liberation Army.
PILGRIM: All right. Disturbing. Let me move on to North Korea. North Korea has agreed to disable its nuclear facilities at the main reactor by December 31st. President Bush saying this a wonderful development.
What's your opinion?
CHANG: Well, any progress is significant. But, really, this is just an interim step and an interim arrangement. When we look at what's going on, it's the easy part of the deal. What comes next is much harder, which is getting North Korea to give up not only its dozen nuclear weapons, but also its fissile material.
You know, as our chief negotiator Chris Hill said, "partial success is not success." And I'm afraid we're only going to get part of the way.
PILGRIM: The great concern is that North Korea will -- might renege on this arrangement once they get -- what they get what they want?
What are -- why are they doing this?
CHANG: Well, I think they want the aid. I mean, Kim Jong Il is particularly vulnerable at this time. And the real risk for the United States is that once he gets assistance in connection with this disarming process, that he's just going to go away. He did that in 1994, with the agreed framework. When he got the assistance, when his regime was out of danger, he then just reneged. And I'm afraid the same thing will happen this time.
PILGRIM: Well, the pattern certainly suggests that end result.
Gordon, let's move on to Myanmar, which has been definitely dominating the headlines. A very disturbing put down of the protests. And China is a very big ally of Myanmar. It has energy deals, many dependencies.
Do we expect anything from China to stop this?
CHANG: I don't really think so. I mean what we saw at the U.N. Security Council a couple of days ago is indicative. China stopped, really, any move to sanctions on Myanmar. And that really is the issue.
China has not just been supporting not just Myanmar, but, you know, it's Iran, North Korea, Darfur. It's a pattern that has been established.
PILGRIM: Given that China is dependent for natural gas, oil, timber, minerals, so many of its strategic resources, there's really probably no indication that China would risk cutting off supplies, correct?
CHANG: Oh, certainly not. And they're not going to do anything to upset the generals. And it's not just the natural resources. China wants Myanmar's access to the sea. So this is absolutely critical and strategic.
PILGRIM: And a regime change in Burma, although the rest of the civilized world would not be adverse to it, China particularly would not want that?
CHANG: Oh, they're going to back that government until the very end. And so I don't think that we're going to be able to get China's assistance. If we're going to do something about Myanmar, we're going to do it ourselves.
PILGRIM: All right.
Thanks very much.
Gordon Chang.
Thanks, Gordon.
Always a pleasure.
A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll -- do you believe the federal government should allow a company -- a U.S. company with sensitive military communications technology to be sold to Communist China, yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com.
We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
And coming up, the toy industry declares this holiday season will be safe.
Is that justified?
Two leading toy safety experts will join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Industry experts are hoping the wave of recalls of dangerous Chinese made toys will not have a negative impact on this critical holiday shopping season. This summer, alone, Mattel, the world's largest toy brand, recalled more than 20 million toys because of lead contamination and design flaws. And now, with the start of the busy holiday shopping season, about a month away, there are increasing concerns about product safety. November and December are the biggest months for toy sales, accord -- accounting for as much as two-thirds of the sales in the United States.
Now, last year, toy sales totaled $22 billion.
And joining me for more on the recent product recalls and the upcoming holiday season is Ed Mierzwinski of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group and Don May, senior product director of product safety at "Consumer Reports".
And we invited both the president, by the way, of the Toy Industry Association and the chair of the Consumer Product Safety Commission to appear on tonight's broadcast. Both declined. So we will proceed without them.
And we have, you know, a huge season coming up, Don.
Are we going to see more recalls, do you think?
DON MAYS, "CONSUMER REPORTS": Absolutely, we're going to see more recalls. In fact, even tomorrow we expect to see yet another toy recall because of lead paint. This holiday season, consumers shouldn't be making a choice between leaded and unleaded toys. Retailers have to step up to the plate and make sure that all the toys that they put in the hands of children this holiday season are safe and free from lead hazards.
PILGRIM: Yes.
Let me the Toy Industry Association. Yesterday at the Toy Fair we did catch up to them -- the enormous Toy Fair going on in New York. We went over there and looked at everything. Really got an eyeful. And this what the Toy Industry Association president said to us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARTER KEITHLEY, TOY INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION: I think that we will see, you know, continue to see a lot of product coming from China. The Chinese manufacturing operations -- I've been through them. They're very good. What we have seen happen here is really, truly an aberration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Ed, do you buy that?
ED MIERZWINSKI, U.S. PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP: Well, American toy manufacturers are not testing the toys they get from China. They're ignoring safety rules and letting the bad toys get through.
By the way, I talked to a consumer today who couldn't find any lead testing kits in the store. She looked in several stores. So consumers are taking it upon themselves to try to see if their toys are safe.
Consumers are scared.
PILGRIM: They certainly are. You know, Sherrod Brown of Ohio -- Congressman -- or Sherrod Brown of Ohio -- has talked about Halloween because this, of course, predates the Christmas season. And he's voiced concern about Halloween toys. You have a lot of toys that are very close to the face and the skin, masks and things.
And is there a danger here?
I mean are we prepared enough for the season that's just around the corner? Don?
MAYS: Not really. I mean we've been advocating that there needs it be more testing and inspection of products before they're shipped into this country. And now it's a matter of relying on the retailers to make sure that the toys that are being carried on the shelves are free of any hazards.
They have to step up to the plate here.
PILGRIM: So are the retailers -- you spoke about a recall tomorrow.
Any indication what it's going it be?
MAYS: Well, we're not absolutely certain. We know it might involve a lead paint issue and it possibly is related to Sherrod Brown's release today.
PILGRIM: All right.
And, Ed, what do you think about the preparedness of the upcoming season?
I mean, presumably, everything has been manufactured already. It's on -- it's on -- being shipped from China, basically, at this point, isn't it?
MIERZWINSKI: You know, it's in the big pipe coming from China. It's already here. It's in the toy stores. They're ready to roll it out. Consumers should take matters into their own hands. They should look at our Web site, toysafety.net, or Don's Web site, consumersunion.org, to find out more about what they can do to protect themselves.
But, absolutely. The toys have already been manufactured. The retailers are stepping up their inspections. But it's time for Congress to act. And tomorrow Nancy Moore (ph) is testifying...
PILGRIM: Well, yes.
Let me follow up on this.
MIERZWINSKI: Yes.
PILGRIM: You're about to testify tomorrow and they're about to reform the Consumer Product Safety Act.
Do you believe that that will be sufficient?
MIERZWINSKI: Well, the Consumer Product Safety Act needs reform so they can go after corporate wrongdoers. They need to ban lead in everything -- not just in paint. And they need to increase import inspections and hold companies accountable before they bring products over the U.S. line, that those products are guaranteed to meet U.S. safety standards. Absolutely, if they do all those three things, we're in better shape than we are now. But the manufactures have miserably failed to do their job.
PILGRIM: You know, Nancy Nord, the acting chairwoman of the Consumer Product Safety Commission, is also going to testify at tomorrow's hearings. And we have watched her on several occasions basically throw up her hands and say we don't have enough resources in sort of a hopeless manner.
Do you think that's an abdication of responsibility?
Do you think she really is very hard-pressed to fix this problem?
What's going on here with the Consumer Product Safety Commission?
MAYS: Well, clearly, she's not stepping up to the plate the way that she needs to. The bill that's going to be discussed tomorrow at the hearing is going to -- it could provide more resources for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, which is desperately needed. They are woefully under staffed and under funded. It will provide more -- more money for them to operate, more staffing and more authority, so they can take control of these 15,000 different types of products that they regulate.
PILGRIM: You know, Ed, you spoke about the retailers taking more responsibility. We heard a Mattel executive, a vice president, apologize to a Chinese official -- the chief of product safety.
What do you think about that apology?
MIERZWINSKI: Well, he apologized to the Chinese officials. China had some toys that contained lead paint. Mattel had some toys that had dangerous magnets that it had designed badly in America, even though they were manufactured over there. So I think he apologized for blaming them for the whole problem.
And that's not good enough. Sorry doesn't work. Mattel's got to admit that it didn't do the job and its Chinese suppliers didn't do the job either. But when the rubber hits the road, it's Mattel's fault, not some third party contractor over there, when it comes into America.
And we'll be looking forward to Commissioner Nord's testimony. She has got to step away from this idea that it's unsolvable. It is solvable. She's got to demand help.
PILGRIM: You know, quite honestly, the commercial relationship between Mattel and their Chinese producers is irrelevant to a parent who is sitting there trying to decide which toy they're going to buy.
MAYS: That's right.
PILGRIM: This sort of dialogue between Mattel and China is not fixing the problem, is it, Don? MAYS: That's exactly right. I mean they -- they really need to make sure that they have the safety net in place through all steps of that supply chain.
Initially, the problem was an issue where Mattel had entrusted the testing of the toys that were being manufactured to the very factory that was producing them. Now, that's a lot like the fox guarding the hen house. They need to have independent, third party testing of the products and certification of those products, so that consumers can be assured that what they buy is safe it use for their children.
PILGRIM: Gentlemen, we are so glad that you're on this issue. And we thank you very much for bringing it to our attention and staying on it with us as we investigate this.
Don Mays and Ed Mierzwinski, thank you very much.
MIERZWINSKI: Thank you, Kitty.
MAYS: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM WITH WOLF BLITZER" -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Thanks very much, Kitty.
A side of former president Jimmy Carter you've probably never seen before. You're going to find out why he got into a shouting match while on an international mission.
Also, is it time to become friends with a country some consider a U.S. enemy?
You're going to hear a passionate debate whether or not to normalize relations with Cuba. Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel says the embargo involves one of the worst U.S. foreign policies. Republican Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart says it keeps billions of dollars from what he calls a "terrorist dictatorship."
And never before seen images of the last moments of Princess Diana's life. They show her with her lover only moments before they died in Paris. A jury is now looking into allegations they were murdered.
All that, Kitty, and a lot more coming up here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
PILGRIM: Thanks, Wolf.
Still, ahead, the results of tonight's poll, more of your thoughts.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now, the results of tonight's poll -- 99 percent of you say the federal government should not allow a U.S. company with sensitive military communications technology to be sold to Communist China.
All right, time now for some of your thoughts.
James in South Carolina: "With all of these special interest groups in Washington, I want to know who's watching out for Americans and protecting our rights."
Paul in California wrote: "Thank you for keeping the middle class on the front burner. You are providing a real service to us. Our elected officials sure don't see the middle class as a priority or even a concern."
John in New York wrote: "Lou, I was hoping that you were on the campaign trail instead of being off for medical reasons. It would certainly be great to have a true American represent us. Get back soon. We need you."
And Withrow in Mississippi wrote: "The argument that illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans don't want is pure rubbish. We just don't want real pay -- we want real pay and benefits. Get well soon, Lou."
Tiana in Arizona: "I'm a 12-year-old from Phoenix and I miss Mr. Dobbs so much. I know a smart guy when I see one and we hope to see him again."
And we do, too, Tiana.
Lou is recovering well and will return soon.
Thanks for being with us.
Please join us tomorrow.
For all of us here, thanks for watching.
Good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" starts right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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