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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Analysis of Democratic Debate
Aired December 13, 2007 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you very much, Wolf.
Tonight Democratic presidential candidates debating for the last time before the first votes in the primary caucuses; we'll tell you who won that debate, who lost, what the candidates said and what they didn't say and what they should have said in some cases.
We'll have the very latest for you on the controversy over a homeowner who used deadly force to defend his neighbor's property. Will that homeowner be indicted? Was he within his rights? I'll be talking with a senior police officer involved in that case and all of that, all the day's news and much more straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Thursday, December 13. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. Today, the turn of the Democratic presidential candidates to appeal to Iowa voters for their support in the caucuses three weeks before those caucuses take place in Iowa. In contrast to the Republican debate yesterday, the moderator didn't try to stop any discussion of any topics, particularly the war in Iraq, and illegal immigration.
The Democratic candidates seized the opportunity to promise a quick end to the war in Iraq. They also pushed their agendas on education and trade. But the candidates quite remarkably had absolutely nothing to say about this nation's illegal immigration crisis.
Candy Crowley reports from Johnston, Iowa. Candy?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know one of the things they say, Lou, is that about -- that the Democrats agree on about 97 percent of all the issues. And in this case, in today's 90- minute debate, they're right.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): The last debate before the caucuses. You have never seen six such agreeable people. When Joe Biden defended himself for racially insensitive remarks...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
CROWLEY: ... they backed him up.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That Joe is on the right side of the issues.
CROWLEY: They all want to roll back tax breaks for the rich and corporations...
JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Have a tax policy that is not favoring big multinational corporations but instead favors the middle class and working people.
CROWLEY: And reconsider trade agreements that have cost American jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We also have to make sure that China trades on an equitable basis with the United States. We ought to ban all these toys they're bringing in. We ought to ban some of the food -- the contaminated food they're bringing in. I don't mind competing with someone but as long as we're all operating by the same rules. This is more of an adversarial relationship. It has to be identified as such.
CROWLEY: As for Hillary Clinton whose husband shepherded the North American Free Trade Agreement, she keeps stepping further away, now promising to reform and improve it.
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will review every trade agreement. I'm going to ask for revisions that I think will actually benefit our country, particularly our workers, our exporters. We believe in trade but we don't want to be the trade patsies of the world.
CROWLEY: And in a debate which focused on home and hearth issues, they all said they want to bolter federal support for education.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got to start kids to school early. You got to put them in smaller classes, the smaller the class the better the outcome. You got to -- in order to do that, you need 100,000 more teachers. You've got to pay teachers.
CROWLEY: Their differences were about whom could get it done. Edwards, throw the bums out.
EDWARDS: Corporate power and greed have literally taken over the government. And we need a president who is willing to take these powers on.
CROWLEY: Obama, the politics of hope.
OBAMA: We can only do it if we have the courage to change, if we can bring the country together...
CROWLEY: All of which gave Clinton an opening for the only zinger of the day.
H. CLINTON: Everybody on this stage has an idea about how to get change. Some believe you get change by demanding it. Some believe you get it by hoping for it. I believe you get it by working hard. CROWLEY: Nobody slipped up, nobody stuck out, but there was a stumper. The question was how Obama could bring about change with so many old Clinton advisers in his campaign?
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: You know, I am...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to hear that.
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: Well Hillary, I'm looking forward to you advising me as well.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CROWLEY: As per usual to the front-runners went the limelight, but the beauty of Iowa is THAT everybody gets a chance to speak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I like best about Iowans is you like underdogs and...
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... you like to shake things up. You don't like the national media and the smarty-pants telling you who's going to be the next president.
CROWLEY: Everybody gets a chance to hope.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: Now after all that sweetness and light, it's back to reality and the reality here on the ground, Lou, is that it is a three-way tie in the Democratic caucuses and I expect that you're going to hear a little more hardball in the three weeks to come. Lou?
DOBBS: A remarkable performance I think today, as you say, just about 97 percent in agreement, some diversion. But I would love to know Senator Obama's response. He didn't exactly directly answer that question, did he?
CROWLEY: No, he never directly answered that question. He did talk about bringing change to Washington. He did talk about how you know bringing in the best advice, that kind of thing, but he never sort of directly answered well why is it change if you're talking to the same old people?
DOBBS: Yeah, I think that comes down to something that's often in the trade characterized as blah, blah, blah, blah.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much; Candy Crowley from Johnston, Iowa.
CROWLEY: Sure.
DOBBS: Thank you.
One of the most notable features about today's debate wasn't the candidates themselves but what the moderator did not say. Yesterday that moderator, Carolyn Washburn, the editor of the "Des Moines Register", instructed Republican candidates not to talk about illegal immigration or the war in Iraq, presumable because she believed that Iowa voters knew what they were thinking on those issues.
Today Washburn gave no such emphatic instructions to the Democratic candidates. In a statement the "Des Moines Register" said quote, "The candidates yesterday were more inclined to discuss those issues and we wanted to make sure they understood why we were asking the questions we were asking."
You think it's the politicians. Watch the media. "The Register" went on to say quote, "We weren't going to ask questions about the war or immigration because based on polling data, Iowans knew where the candidates stood on these issues."
Oh, this is what happens when sometimes journalists spend too much time with politicians. In today's Democratic debate, we asked 23 undecided Democratic voters to score these candidates' performance with real-time readings. Among the topics that rated highest with the voters in that focus group are failing public education system and the lack of confidence in the Bush presidency. Issues addressed by Governor Bill Richardson and the other candidates as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would simply say to the American people, as your president, I'm going to follow the Constitution of the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've said the very first day I'll do whatever I can by executive power to give you back your Constitution.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None of those things are going to happen unless we have a president of the United States who calls on the American people to join together to take this democracy and take this country back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will send bipartisan emissaries around the world with a very simple message; the era of cowboy diplomacy is over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't have a royal presidency. We don't have a king of the United States of America. Whatever George Bush thinks, he is not king.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Want to bet? This group of voters selected Barack Obama as most likely to win the Democratic nomination, they said however that they would support John Edwards if they were to vote today. We can't square that one up either. Before today's debate, Senator Clinton personally apologized to Senator Obama for remarks by one of her top advisers, the campaign adviser suggested Republicans would make an issue of Senator Obama's admission that he used drugs as a teenager. Tonight that adviser, Bill Shaheen, resigned from the Clinton campaign.
Jessica Yellin has the report from Des Moines, Iowa. Jessica?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is the last thing Senator Clinton needed today as she tries to stay focused on a positive message heading into the last stretch here in Iowa. Now the adviser, Bill Shaheen, suggested to "The Washington Post" that Obama's past drug use will make his electability a problem because Republicans might suggest that he was actually a drug dealer.
Well the Obama campaign says Barack Obama has never been a drug dealer and today this had kicked up such controversy that Bill Shaheen resigned saying that his comments were in no way authorized by Senator Clinton or the Clinton campaign and that Clinton has been running a positive campaign. Now the Obama campaign, as you might guess, welcomed the resignation saying that quote, "it was a good decision because what he did was beyond the pale. Hopefully it will send a signal that you can't do these kinds of things".
Now as you said, Senator Clinton personally apologized to Barack Obama. It happened on the tarmac at Reagan National Airport before they flew here. But that hasn't kept Barack Obama from making this whole issue into a fund-raising pitch, saying they need to raise more money to keep the opponents from making smears and attacks against Barack Obama.
So why does all this matter? The bottom line is Senator Clinton has lost a significant lead here in the state. They are running neck and neck. In this final stretch, she is trying to stay focused on a message that's about what she can do to the country, do for the country and instead this has reinforced a negative impression of her. Some voters say she seems too negative or opportunistic and this doesn't help to correct that impression. Lou?
DOBBS: Jessica, thank you very much; Jessica Yellin reporting from Des Moines.
Still ahead here tonight, the battle to make English the official language of this country is escalating. Louise Schiavone will have the report for us from Washington. Louise?
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it only makes sense that employers who need their workers to speak English should have the right to require it. But one congressman is saying just because it makes sense, doesn't mean it's the law, yet.
DOBBS: Louise, thank you very much. And just because it does make sense, it seems likely these days that it wouldn't become law.
Also, most members of our Congress vote in favor of supporting Christmas, but incredibly nine lawmakers did not. We'll tell you who those nay-sayers Scrooges and Grinches are.
And the worst scandal in Major League Baseball, many of the biggest names in baseball linked performance-enhancing drugs. We call them steroids and we'll have complete coverage of this scandal and more next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new push to make English the official language at businesses and workplaces all across the United States. A new bill entitled, "The Common Sense English Act" would allow employers to require workers to speak only English at workplaces. The legislation comes after a lawsuit was filed against the Salvation Army for crying out loud because the Salvation Army demands that its employees speak English.
Louise Schiavone has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(SOUNDS)
SCHIAVONE (voice-over): The chartable group behind this bell- ringer and thousands like him is facing a federal lawsuit. The Salvation Army is still defending itself against charges filed last spring saying it unfairly fired workers for not speaking English after having given them a year to learn it. Congressman Tom Price thinks that lawsuit is ridiculous.
REP. TOM PRICE (R), GEORGIA: It's a matter of safety. It's a matter of communication. We're not enforcing it on anybody, but we ought to certainly allow it and protect employers so they're not sued by their own government if they require individuals to speak English.
SCHIAVONE: With the support of dozens of colleagues, including top House Republicans, Price has introduced "The Common Sense English Act", assuring U.S. employers of the right to require their workers to speak English on the job. Most Americans, says Price, think that's fair. We asked people whether they thought an employer should be able to require workers to speak English on the job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For most of American history, being an American involves learning English. And I think that's an important tradition to keep.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it's a requirement of the job to be able to do the job effectively, then it's a legitimate thing to ask.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is in the interest of the job applicant himself to actually learn the language for us and then do a job and I think he'll do a better job if he learns the language.
SCHIAVONE: The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission lays out the rules this way:
"An employer may implement an English-only rule as long as there's a legitimate business reason." The agency has five active lawsuits pending involving English-only rules. The Salvation Army, meanwhile, expects to win its case stating, quote, "Our employment policies serve only to protect the welfare and safety of our employees and those whom we serve", end quote.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Well this summer, a CNN poll found fully three- quarters of those surveyed support the concept of declaring English the official language of the United States, another side say many in Congress that "an English in the workplace" requirement is simply common sense. Lou?
DOBBS: Yes, unfortunately, common sense isn't altogether that common, as the saying goes. Louise, thank you very much; Louise Schiavone from Washington.
Our poll question tonight is do you believe that English should be the official language in all businesses and workplaces across the country? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. Can you believe we even have to ask this question? Let's be honest. We'll have the results for you here later in the broadcast.
Well Congress this week voted on a resolution on the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith. Wow, a spokesman for Congressman Steve King of Iowa said he sponsored that resolution after two similar resolutions earlier this year were passed that recognized the importance of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month, and Dawali, a festival of importance to Hindus and Buddhists.
The final vote on Christmas came out 372-9 in favor. Congressman Gary Ackerman of New York, one of the nine congressman who voted against the Christmas resolution in a statement issued to LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, Congressman Ackerman said, quote, "Congress has better things to do than to infringe upon the separation of Church and State."
Well, Congressman Ackerman, along with six of the others who voted against Christmas did take time to vote yes on the resolutions recognizing Ramadan and Dawali. The other two voted for at least one of those resolutions, I'm proud to tell you.
And apparently infringing on the separation of Church and State is OK when it comes to other religious holidays for those folks, just not Christmas. Spokesman for Congressmen McDermott, Stark and Woolsey, say they felt it was inappropriate to celebrate Christmas right after the president had vetoed the SCHIP legislation on children's health care.
We contacted all of those congressmen who voted against Christmas but they did for some reason not give us responses in time for this broadcast. And for that we are deeply regretful. I'm sure they are as well, the scrooges, all of them.
And a few thoughts now to consider on God and government and the relationship thereto; Angelo Gnatoli (ph), one of our viewers, sent us this e-mail. It's entitled "The Law is the Law" and it reads and we wanted to share it with you because we think it raises some interesting issues.
"So if the U.S. government determines that it is against the law for the words "under God" to be on our money, than, so be it. And if that same government decides that the Ten Commandments are not to be used in or on a government installation, then so be it. I would like to think that those people have the American public's best interests at heart. But you know what else I'd like? I don't believe the government and its employees should participate in the Easter and Christmas celebrations, which honor the God that our government is eliminating from many facets of American life.
I'd like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving and Easter. After all, it's just another day. I'd like the Senate and the House of Representatives not to have to worry about getting home for the Christmas break. After all, it's just another day to a government that is trying to be politically correct. What do you all think? Maybe our elected officials will stop giving in to the minority opinions and begin once again to represent the majority of all of the American people. So be it."
And we'll pass that e-mail around the Internet as we find it very, very interesting. We hope you did, too. I'll have more of your e-mail and your thoughts later in this broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit.".
Coming up here next, fame and now shame, baseball greats past and present linked to steroids; America's pastime besmirched by its biggest scandal since the Black Sox affair nearly 90 years ago.
And deadly defense, a Texas police officer joins us tonight with details from a night a homeowner shot two burglar suspects. Both of them it turns out illegal aliens. We'll have that story and what is likely to occur next. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Some of the biggest names in baseball today linked to the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs. The devastating scandalous report by former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell found widespread abuse of drugs in the Major League Baseball organization over the past two decades. And Senator Mitchell said everyone, everyone in baseball shares some of the blame.
Brian Todd has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Anticipated for months, names dropped in advance, the report is still jarring, a "who's who" of super stars. The naming of Roger Clemens, one of baseball's most dominant pitchers for more than 20 years, and his New York Yankee teammate, pitcher Andy Pettitte led one observer to call this a tough day in the Bronx. Former MVP's Barry Bonds and Miguel Tejada and nine-time all-star Gary Sheffield also make George Mitchell's list of dozens of Major League Baseball players linked to the alleged use of performance-enhancing drugs.
GEORGE MITCHELL, MLB STEROID INVESTIGATOR: The use of steroids in Major League Baseball was widespread. The response by baseball was slow to develop and was initially ineffective.
TODD: Mitchell also levels blame on the players' union for first opposing random testing and for a lack of cooperation with his inquiry.
MITCHELL: Each of the players was invited to meet with me so I could provide him with information about the allegations and give him an opportunity to respond. Almost without exception, all current players declined my invitation.
TODD: Mitchell recommends year-round unannounced testing, the results open to the public, and says baseball should outsource the testing program to an independent person with real authority. But he says baseball's commissioner shouldn't punish players for past violations unless they're so serious that the integrity of the game is on the line. The commissioner indicates he may be inclined to punish some.
BUD SELIG, MLB COMMISSIONER: I will deal with the active players identified by Senator Mitchell as users of performance-enhancing substances. I will also review the comments made by Senator Mitchell about club personnel and will take appropriate action.
TODD: The head of the players' union says any decision by players not to cooperate was up to the players themselves and says this about repercussions.
DONALD FEHR, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYERS ASSN.: Many players are named. Their reputations have been adversely affected, probably forever even if it turns out down the road that they should not have been.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: We've been seeking comment from some of the players named in the report. An attorney for Roger Clemens has just said that he expects his client to adamantly deny the accusations against him. Our calls to representatives for Andy Pettitte, Barry Bonds, Miguel Tejada and Gary Sheffield have not been returned. Spokesman for the New York Yankees and Sheffield's team, the Detroit Tigers, say they are reviewing the report. Lou?
DOBBS: I think it's really important for us to put into context and perspective what Senator Mitchell has done here. And Senator Mitchell, as you would expect, has acted with absolute integrity and effectiveness in delivering this report against both, in many cases a strong headwinds put against his efforts by both the owners and the players.
But the reality is that the -- as you hear Bud Selig talk about he may take action, he should be taking action as well against the owners and the administrations of the baseball clubs themselves because they have been absolutely complicit with a certain knowledge that this has been going on for years and years in Major League Baseball.
TODD: Well he certainly should be. And he looks like he will take action, as he says, on a case-by-case basis. Now Bud Selig was accused during that tier (ph) of power heading back in the late 90's of looking -- taking a blind eye to what was going on because they wanted to get fans back to the game after the strike.
But it's important to also note that Mitchell said that the use of detectable steroids since that time has actually gone down since they instituted mandatory testing in 2002. But there's still what they call the human growth hormone...
DOBBS: Right.
TODD: ... which is also banned from baseball. They say they cannot detect that so well because you can't detect it in a urine test and Selig says he is going to do something about that.
DOBBS: Well it will be interesting to see if for a change baseball actually does something. Donald Fehr and the players' union, they have immense responsibility here and there's not a single person involved in Major League Baseball either from the players, the owners, or the club management side or for that matter, the sponsorship and all of those associated with Major League Baseball, including the fans, who have known what's been going on in this sport for a very, very long time.
Brian, thank you very much; Brian Todd for that important -- a shameful day for baseball. The greater shame is that it was tolerated for so long. Thank you very much.
Coming up here next, a presidential candidate and senior congressman says President Bush missed an opportunity to pardon imprisoned border patrol agents Ramos and Compean. That congressman, Congressman Duncan Hunter, presidential candidate, is among our guests here.
And good news in an international custody battle involving a 2- year-old boy. The state government of Oregon almost sent that young boy to Mexico. We'll have the report.
And police have almost completed their investigation into a homeowner who shot and killed two suspected burglars, both of whom illegal aliens. One of the police officers involved in the case, a senior officer, joins us here tonight.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The city council of Pasadena, Texas expected to pass an ordinance banning protests outside private homes, that ban on a direct response to demonstrations outside the home of a man who shot and killed two burglars. Joe Horn, the man who shot those burglars insists he was acting in self defense. Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Pasadena City Council wants to stop scenes like this one on December 2nd in a residential neighborhood. The demonstration was held by both protesters and supporters of Joe Horn, a resident who shot and killed two unarmed thieves robbing his neighbor's house. As a result of this protest, the council voted unanimously to ban such displays in front of people's homes. Though a second vote is needed before it's official. The leader of the New Black Panther Nation, which organized the original protest, is saying he will challenge it in court. Quanell believes the ordinance is specifically directed at him.
QWANELL X, NEW BLACK PANTHER NATION: I believe it's an insult for the city council in Pasadena to waste a taxpayer's money in holding a meeting solely to pass a Quanell X law and ordinance. It's disrespectful to the citizens of Pasadena. It's disrespectful to the citizens of America. The law they passed is unconstitutional.
TUCKER: The group is promising more protest if Joe Horn isn't charged with murder and brought to trial. The New Black Panther Nation said it called a meeting of activists Sunday night. They say it was a mix of white, African American and Hispanic activists. They described the Hispanics as nationalist groups, having a strong interest in defending the rights of "immigrants." Police say the two burglars were illegal aliens. One of whom had been deported on a prior drug conviction.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: The Pasadena police are finishing up their investigation. They're expected to hand over the results of that information to the district attorney's office next week. Lou, from there, the district attorney will hand them over to a grand jury.
DOBBS: The ordinance that Pasadena is putting forward, that type of ordinance has been upheld in other communities across the country so Quanell X doesn't think he's being singled out.
TUCKER: In Brookside, Wisconsin, there was one that was upheld in 1998 by the Supreme Court. They appear to be on solid legal ground.
DOBBS: Now Quanell X and other activists, how do they justify the racial aspect of this when, in point of fact, that the property of the -- of Joe Horn's neighbors, his neighbors are Vietnamese Americans.
TUCKER: That's correct.
DOBBS: This looks to me like a very diverse community.
TUCKER: I don't know how totally diverse the community is. But I will say in my conversations with Quanell X, he has not played the race card and he's never accused of Mr. Horn of being a racist and acting on racist grounds. His problem is he shot and killed them and he shot them in the back. That's where the problem begins and ends with him.
DOBBS: We're going to examine that right now. Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
Joining me now for more on the Horn shooting is senior police officer very familiar with this case. Captain Bud Corbett of the Pasadena Texas Police Department. Captain Corbett joining us tonight from Houston, Texas. We thank you, Captain, for being with us.
CAPT. BUD CORBETT, PASADENA TEXAS POLICE DEPT.: Thank you.
DOBBS: Can we begin with the first -- let's first listen to, if we may, the original 911 tape recording which I know that you've heard at least 100 times but if we may hear that tape one more time because we're going to move some of the issues raised by that tape itself.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JOE HORN: (EXPLETIVE) they just stole something. I'm going to go out the window. I'm not going to let them get away with this (EXPLETIVE) they just stole something. They got a bag of something.
OPERATOR: Mr. Horn, stay in the house.
HORN: I'm doing it.
OPERATOR: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
HORN: This ain't right buddy.
Move, you're dead.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
DOBBS: As we just heard Captain Corbett, Horn gave very specific instructions to those two men not to move. Can you give us the facts as determined by your department's investigation? We've just heard a report that they were fired upon in the back, that they were not -- rather than proceed, let me just ask you to give us the facts as your investigation has found them.
CORBETT: Well, if you can picture this, on the face of a clock, the shooter was at 6:00, the suspects at 12:00 and the detective, plain clothes officer in an unmarked vehicle was in the street at an 8:00 angle moving to a 10:00 angle. And the suspects and the shooter were approximately seven to ten feet apart.
DOBBS: So they were very close. Were they, in fact, on Joe Horn's property?
CORBETT: Yes, they were. That's not where the burglary occurred. It actually occurred next door. But Mr. Horn exited his residence through the front door. He went through a recessed porch area, made a right turn into his front yard and was virtually immediately face-to-face with the suspects.
DOBBS: And they were approaching him on foot, is that correct?
CORBETT: That's correct, yeah.
DOBBS: And when he, as we just heard on the 911 tape, said, move and you're dead, the response of the two men who were shot?
CORBETT: One of the suspects basically did an about-face and ran eastbound. The other suspect ran northwest, which was at the 8:00 angle. But this particular subject actually came closer to Mr. Horn when he initiated his run than he had been when Mr. Horn first confronted him.
DOBBS: And when horn fired, he hit these two men -- the shotgun blasts hit them where?
CORBETT: Both of the suspects were actually hit in the back. The one who ran off at a northwest angle was hit at more of an angle than the other. The one who ran eastbound, it was a more perpendicular shot.
DOBBS: Now, at this point, let me ask you for the interpretation on the part of your detectives, if you can share that with us and your own and that of the department, the fact that they were shot in the back as they were making a movement of some kind, either to leave the scene or to avoid Mr. Horn, what is the interpretation of your detectives in that?
CORBETT: Well, if you're talking about do they feel there was a threat or --
DOBBS: In their judgment, was there a threat and how do they interpret the fact that these two men were shot in the back?
CORBETT: Well, it's true that they were shot in the back. But because they were does not necessarily indicate that there was no threat. Mr. Horn actually says on a tape, part of which you have not heard --
DOBBS: Right.
CORBETT: He says, I was scared to death. And he indicates that one of the suspects actually, what he described as "jumped." The detective in the street didn't actually describe it that way. But the detective did say that he observed one of the suspects actually get closer to Mr. Horn when he initiated his run than he had been when Mr. Horn first tried to stop these suspects.
DOBBS: We have looked and have examined Texas penal law and it looks rather clear that the Texas law provides for the use of lethal force to protect the property of a neighbor or a third party. And that reads -- this is from the penal code, section 943, "A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property." That seems rather clear-cut. Obviously we're not lawyers here. But that seems like a rather clear-cut statement that permits the use of deadly force in this instance.
CORBETT: I'm sorry, go ahead.
DOBBS: That's all I was going to say, in this instance, it looks as though it's clearly justified.
CORBETT: Well, it is that provision that is coming into play for purposes of grand jury review as well as the self-defense provision under the deadly force statutes.
DOBBS: What is the judgment -- I would like to hear from you. These laws are, as you know, quite different than laws in most states where there is a responsibility to retreat from a threat on the part of the homeowner rather than to take decisive and even lethal action. As a law enforcement officer, I'd like your judgment. Are you more comfortable with the Texas law or the broader custom across the country?
CORBETT: Well, there is a provision in there that says you're not required to retreat. And from a practical standpoint, I've been in the police business in Texas for 35 years, so I really haven't had an opportunity to put to it the test anywhere else.
DOBBS: As a law enforcement officer, you're comfortable with this law?
CORBETT: Yes, I am.
DOBBS: Captain Bud Corbett, we appreciate you taking the time to join us and to help us better understand what transpired on that tragic day. Thank you.
CORBETT: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Coming up next, the development of another story we're covering extensively. The custody case of baby Gabriel and there's a very likely merry Christmas ahead for baby Gabriel and his foster family. We'll have that story next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An incredible case and an absolutely controversial custody battle has finally ended. 2-year-old Gabriel Allred as we reported to you over the past several weeks, known as baby Gabriel, it has been decided will remain with his foster parents in Oregon. The Oregon State Department of Human Services announced that decision after mediation with the boy's Mexican grandmother. State welfare officials had recommended that the boy be sent to Mexico and custody be given to the grandmother. But his foster parents fought to adopt him and to keep him in Oregon.
Joining me now, Gabriel's foster mother, Angela Brandt and Oregon talk show host, Lars Larson, who championed the case of the Brandt family and baby Gabriel.
First of all, if I may say to you, Angela, congratulations. I know -- the last time we talked, I know how much you and your husband had worked, the frustration that you have had to feel. Incredible. How do you feel tonight?
ANGEL BRANDT, GABRIEL'S FOSTER MOTHER: We are absolutely thrilled. We just have incredibly happy. This is the Christmas present we were all hoping for, thank you.
DOBBS: Do you know the basis for the decision by the mediator?
BRANDT: I don't think that I can discuss that. We had signed a confidentiality agreement and we're pretty limited as to what Steve and I can discuss with the media.
DOBBS: Well, to that end, the result is certainly a positive one for you, for baby Gabriel.
BRANDT: Absolutely, yes.
DOBBS: And you're assured there will be no further interference on the part of the state government? Can you say at least that much?
BRANDT: That's what -- I would say that's what I believe.
DOBBS: Okay. And Angela, I know that Lars Larson, who first brought your case and that of your family, including of course baby Gabriel, now I guess it's very near official, let me turn to Lars. When will you officially adopt baby Gabriel?
BRANDT: It's our understanding that paperwork is being attacked right now by baby Gabriel's attorney and Brian Johnston assures us he's going to try and make this as speedy as possible and we are really hoping that that's what happens. I'd really like an adoption by Christmas.
DOBBS: That would be wonderful.
BRANDT: It would.
DOBBS: Lars - I'll tell you what. I think everybody here is pulling for you around the country. So we certainly hope that this happy resolution is made even happier.
BRANDT: Thanks.
DOBBS: Lars, you deserve great credit. You brought it first to my attention when we were talking. Did you expect that you would see the resolution this soon?
LARS LARSON, OREGON TALK SHOW HOST: I hoped that I would see it this soon. But this is a did you see -- disturbing case. And it doesn't stop with baby Gabriel. There are now published report that is part of the agreement says the state of Oregon will force the Brandts to force this child to learn Spanish. You say that's reasonable. But should any state government be telling families how to treat their children? I mean I'm talking about telling them they must teach this child and be ordered by the state of Oregon to learn Spanish. They've agreed to keep secret what it was the state of Oregon did to them; it ought to make you suspicious.
DOBBS: It makes me uncomfortable. At the same time, I don't under any circumstance want to jeopardize and I don't know you don't, the Brandt family's relationship with either Gabriel or with the government agency that has some considerable power still over the lives of this young man and the Brandt family.
LARSON: Lou, there's another big issue here. When we began to investigate this after the Brandts brought to it me and I have no other connection to them. They're wonderful people, but I don't know them personally other than through this case. We came to find out that the state of Oregon's taken 19 other citizens who are children and shipped them off to every corner of the globe, including as far away as Kenya. Farce we can tell, there's no way to know what the status of these children are. They could be dead; they could be in dire emergencies. And we don't know how many other states around America are shipping American children to the far corners of the world, never to be seen again, perhaps. That's wrong.
DOBBS: It's absolutely wrong. It is something that -- and I think at the same time, we've got to give the governor of Oregon some considerable credit for responding to the attention that you brought to this case. We're going to come back with you in a moment with Angela Brandt and Lars Larson about what's turned out to be a wonderful surprise and development for the Gabriel -- baby Gabriel and the Brandt family. We'll be right back with that and new evidence that a comfortable retirement isn't an option for an increasingly large number of middle class Americans. We'll tell you about that as well. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back with Angela Brandt, soon to be the official mother of baby Gabriel and Lars Larson who took up the -- her case and that of her husband in the adoption of baby Gabriel. I want to say first, Angela, your thoughts as we are concluding here, your thoughts about what has transpired and what you expected.
BRANDT: We're incredibly grateful, especially to Lars for how he has raised public outcry. It's created such an awareness that that just wasn't there. We're hoping that Gabriel is not the only child who will ultimately be affected by this. Wouldn't it be awesome if they would take a look at this agency a little bit deeper and perhaps protect our little children? We need to advocate for these people. These are little Americans who, gosh, Gabriel is of inestimatable valuable. He is so precious and he is worth every bit of this fight and there are other children just like him.
DOBBS: You make a wonderful point and I have a very strong feeling that you're going to see a lot of people respond tonight to your presence on this broadcast. We're going to hear from people, I'm sure, in similar situations. We invite them to call us, to join us in what Angela's described and we will try to do what Lars has done there in Oregon and that is, be helpful to their cause.
Lars, you think that when I refer today the governor of Oregon as having stepped in here. You think that I was misplaced in giving that credit?
LARSON: Lou, all credit to you for bringing this to national attention because it should be looked at across the country. But don't give the governor credit. He was facing a firestorm of public protest. After we brought this to the attention, there were Oregonians like Harry Merlot, my friend, who put up thousands of dollars so the Brandts could fight this gigantic bureaucracy. And all across America people should be asking their child welfare agencies, are you doing what's best for the children or are you following some weird political correctness and multiculturalism that says that because a little boy has some Mexican genes and some Mexican DNA that rather to leave him with a quality foster family that wants to adopt him in America because he's an American citizen, we'll ship him off to a foreign country because of DNA. That just doesn't make any sense. These bureaucracies have to be brought under control. And the families don't have the capability to fight these gigantic million dollar agencies.
DOBBS: Lars Larson, thank you for what you've done in this case. And to Angela and your husband, I know it's been a fact of love and commitment. And we salute you as well as garage you and wish you all the very best.
LARSON: Thanks, Lou.
BRANDT: Thank you.
DOBBS: Merry Christmas.
Coming up at the top of the hour, "OUT IN THE OPEN," Rick Sanchez. Rick.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: You are not going to believe, Lou, some of the reaction that we've gotten from the story that we posted a couple of days ago. Elizabeth Cohen put this story together for us. If you go those pictures, put those up. These are young ladies who have put themselves on the internet in seeming drunken stupors and other poses. And the reaction in many ways is coming from them tonight. We'll be sharing that with you. It gets a little bit heated.
Of course, this is now the biggest baseball scandal in about 100 years. We've seen it coming. Who's to blame? Is it major league baseball? Is it the players? Is it all of us? There's really a lot of questions to ask here and who better than Jose Conseco. He was the first one who pointed the finger at this scandal and said, we've got a problem here. And a lot of people laughed at him and said, you're just trying to make money. He's going to be here to talk about that.
And with all the problems we have in this country, you'd think congress would have an important resolution to deal with any of the problems that you talk about every night, Lou. But, no, there's an important resolution they've passed. It's about Christmas. We'll talk about that, too.
DOBBS: All right. Well, I hope you find it as interesting as I did that Congress, some members of Congress found Ramadan to be more important in terms of congressional time than Christmas. Thank you very much.
SANCHEZ: Why not immigration and some of the other issues, right?
DOBBS: I wonder why sometimes we bother with any of these elected officials of either party.
Coming up next, are middle class spending too much, too fast and not saving at all for retirement? We'll have that report and more coming right up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stagnant wages and declining wages, soaring home and energy costs all combining to force working men and women in this country to spend more and save less for retirement; an alarming new federal study, finding that only a third of all American workers are investing in a 401k plan. As Christine Romans now reports, more young workers face a less secure retirement than their parents.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not currently saving for retirement right now because honestly making ends meet is really what's the priority.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm very worried about it.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's paying off law school instead of saving. The Government Accountability Office projected 37 percent of all workers born in 1990 will eventually have no 401k savings at retirement. If you look at just the low income worker, it's worse. Two thirds of them will retire with nothing saved. Young workers are saving so little that they'll eventually replace only 22 percent of their pre-retirement income, far less than the 70 to 80 percent recommended. Not nearly enough.
REP. GEORGE MILLER (D), CHMN., CMTE. ON EDUCATION & LABOR: That doesn't mean these easy because an awful lot of people don't have wages that allow them much money left over at the end of the month to say.
ROMANS: The GAO analysis doesn't include social security benefits. GAO prepared the report at Congressman Miller's request. He worries fees will eat into savings. Miller says out of 50 million Americans who do have a 401k plan, 80 percent of them have no idea how much they're paying in fees. At the same, the next generation of workers faces stagnant wages and tough choices, like paying for college. Tuition at public four year colleges rose 51 percent over the past five years. And health care, 47 million in this country lack health insurance. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I live day by day like most people in this country and might end up a little bit short.
ROMANS: An increasing number of Americans are already living paycheck to paycheck. GAO predicts an even more difficult retirement situation for the next generation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Congressman Miller says the 401k short fall is especially troubling because these are the plans that are replacing the traditional pension plans, Lou, and they're replacing them quickly.
DOBBS: You know, I'm one of those guys, when I was young, I wasn't saving money. I wasn't putting away money for retirement. I happened to get lucky enough to be able to put some aside later, but this is -- the real issue here is what is happening to the quality of jobs and the opportunity for people to make better lives in this country. The American dream -- and George Miller, Congressman Miller is exactly right, I mean, to focus on this -- but the real issue here is what kind of quality of life are we going to create not only for ourselves, but for our children? And none of our -- these people running for president right now -- and forgive me for those who've got a dog in this hunt -- they're not talking about the quality of life in this country. They're talking nonsense. And -- to a person.
ROMANS: For too many people, it's not a choice between spending or saving. There is no choice. They have to spend month to month.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.
Now the results of our poll: 97 percent of you responding that you believe that English should be the official language at all businesses and workplaces across the country. My guess is 100 percent of you no matter what you answered would say, why are we even having to ask these questions?
And time now for some of your thoughts. Rich in Arizona said, "As a recent convert to the independent party, yahoo! I don't see a candidate that will make a difference. There is no difference between Republicans and Democrats and really no alternative for us. That is the sad state of our choices."
The first choice is to be an independent and to tell these parties to not take you for granted.
And Lawrence in Arizona, "It appears the staff of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT treats comments to him the same way George Bush's staff reacts. Give him only the comments which support his views. Never put a negative view on the program. The same disdain which Bush deserves is appropriate for anyone who acts the same. Make sure you don't pass this one along, just as you did with past comments."
There. We put on a negative. I don't like it. I like positives. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit," which includes even putting on negative comments rarely from time to time, infrequently as possible.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Join us here tomorrow. Good night from New York. "OUT IN THE OPEN" with Rick Sanchez begins right now. Rick.
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