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Lou Dobbs Tonight
U.S. Aircraft Launch Strike Against al Qaeda in Iraq
Aired January 10, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you.
Tonight one year after President Bush announced the surge strategy our troops in Iraq are on the offensive, American aircraft today launching one of the biggest air strikes of the war against al Qaeda. We will have all of that, all the day's news and much more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Thursday, January 10. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. Tens of thousands of our troops and Iraqi troops are sweeping tonight through insurgent controlled areas of Iraq. The offensive comes exactly one year after President Bush announced plans to send five additional combat brigades to Iraq, the so-called surge strategy. Defense Secretary Robert Gates today said the job is not finished, there is more to do and one day after six of our troops were killed in a bomb explosion in northern Iraq, Secretary Gates warned there will be higher casualties. Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon. She has dramatic new video of this offensive -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Lou, any way you cut it, major combat operations are under way once again in Iraq and a lot of questions about what is going on.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STARR (voice-over): These are the first pictures of punishing U.S. bombing runs on the southern outskirts of Baghdad near the town of Arab Jabour. U.S. war planes dropped 40,000 pounds of bombs in just 10 minutes on insurgent targets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go!
(SOUNDS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go!
STARR: Nearby, soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division were in a fierce firefight. It is part of a massive military offensive to clear out what the U.S. hopes are some of the last al Qaeda strongholds. Thousands of U.S. troops are involved, many in Diyala province. It was exactly one year ago when President Bush announced the troop surge that sent 30,000 additional forces into Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The new strategy I outline tonight will change America's course in Iraq.
STARR: The surge was supposed to improve security and buy time for the Iraqi government to get its act together. So why a year later are there still al Qaeda strongholds, especially deep in northern Iraq and south of Baghdad?
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: General Petraeus anticipated this in the sense that they would move, and the key is to do in these provinces and where this offensive is underway what he has accomplished elsewhere, and that is to clear and then hold.
STARR: But it's been tough going. In Diyala, six U.S. soldiers were killed and four wounded Wednesday, when a booby-trapped house exploded. More heavy casualties are likely but Gates is hoping this offensive will turn a corner against al Qaeda.
GATES: Frankly, after these places, there's not much else -- not many places they can go.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: But Lou, there aren't any U.S. military commanders just yet ready to declare light at the end of the tunnel -- Lou.
DOBBS: At the same time, it has undeniably been a strategy and we have been extremely critical on this broadcast of the conduct of this war. But there is no question that this strategy over the course of the past four months has been successful, correct?
STARR: Oh, I think by any measure in terms of combat operations, most certainly. The really unexpected thing for the U.S. military was the extent to which security would really bubble up from local towns and villages and tribal leaders that perhaps one of the most unexpected benefits of the surge -- Lou.
DOBBS: Barbara, thank you, Barbara Starr reporting tonight from the Pentagon.
The surge strategy an issue in the presidential campaign trail today as well for one candidate at least. Senator John McCain, a strong supporter of the president's strategy, declared the surge is working. Senator McCain is campaigning in South Carolina, where he hopes for a second primary victory, that on January 19th. Dana Bash now reports from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One year to the day President Bush adopted John McCain's call for an Iraq troop surge, a chance to say I told you so.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This strategy is succeeding, my friends. They are safer neighborhoods. We are seeing the Iraqi military taking over more and more the responsibilities. BASH: In veteran rich South Carolina, McCain's war hero status and national security credentials are a huge plus, his support for giving illegal immigrants a path to citizenship, a big problem.
DEIRDRE FARRA, SOUTH CAROLINA VOTER: I have every bit of confidence for you as far as the military is concerned. I would love to hear you speak on immigration.
MCCAIN: I want to look you in the eye and tell you I know what the message is. The message is we must secure our borders. I will secure our borders. I will secure our borders.
(APPLAUSE)
BASH: South Carolina is where superstitious McCain is trying to break a curse. Eight years ago, he came in riding momentum of his first New Hampshire win, only to suffer a brutal defeat to George W. Bush, fatally wounding his presidential bid. He blames dirty tricks, lashed out at evangelical leaders who opposed him.
MCCAIN: The agents of intolerance, whether they be Louis Farrakhan or Al Sharpton on the left or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell on the right.
(APPLAUSE)
BASH: Since McCain has tried to mend fences even with the late Jerry Falwell. Here, he insists he's focused on now, not then.
MCCAIN: South Carolinians make up their own minds on the merit of their candidates, not particularly on what happened before.
BASH: This time is different. No Bush juggernaut and South Carolina is changing, booming Sun Belt growth means a larger pool of moderate, non-evangelical Republicans than eight years ago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: McCain himself brought up what he thinks is a big difference this time around and that is back in 2000, most of the Republican establishment here in South Carolina backed Bush. Now, most of them are backing John McCain, but the big question, Lou, is whether or not that establishment can beat back his chief rival here, Mike Huckabee, because Huckabee has intense support inside the grassroots, especially from evangelicals -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much, Dana Bash reporting from Myrtle Beach. We will have much more on the presidential campaign here later.
President Bush tonight is paying little attention to this presidential campaign. That's because the president is focused on the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Speaking in Jerusalem, President Bush today says he's confident of reaching a peace deal before January of next year, when he leaves office. Ed Henry has our report from Jerusalem -- Ed. ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the significance is that the president is pushing harder for a peace deal than ever before, but the question remains, can he deliver on it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): After two days of intense meetings with Palestinian and Israeli leaders, President Bush for the first time declared he believes a Mideast peace deal will be signed before he leaves office.
BUSH: The peace agreement should happen and can happen by the end of this year. I know each leader shares that important goal and I am committed to doing all I can to achieve it.
HENRY: Mr. Bush may return to the region several times this year, a significant personal commitment from a president who had not been as hands-on. There's a new forcefulness, the president using the loaded term occupation.
BUSH: There should be an end to the occupation that began in 1967. The agreement must establish Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people. Just as Israel is the homeland for the Jewish people.
HENRY: That would be a major concession from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. But Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is being nudged, too.
BUSH: On the Israeli side, that includes any settlement expansion and removing unauthorized outposts. On the Palestinian side, that includes confronting terrorists and dismantling terrorist infrastructure.
HENRY: But he's pointedly leaving those thorny details up to the two parties.
BUSH: Now is the time to make difficult choices.
HENRY: Under extremely tight security, Mr. Bush also met Abbas at the presidential compound in Ramallah ironically speaking beneath a portrait of the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: It was Mr. Bush's disgust for Arafat that kept him from getting more actively involved in the process. Now Arafat is gone and the president has a motivation to get more aggressive. He noted he's on a timetable, only 12 more months in office -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Ed Henry reporting from Jerusalem.
Joining me now to discuss the progress of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan, General David Grange; General Grange, one of the country's most decorated former military commanders. General, one year since the surge strategy was announced by President Bush. It's unquestionably working. Where do we go from here?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it's working well. We know the results already. No need to go over those again, but where we have to go from -- go ahead is that we -- it's important that we have the momentum, that we keep the pressure on, we don't slack off, we shouldn't get in a hurry to get home, though some troops are redeployed because that's the only way to exploit the success.
DOBBS: And in Afghanistan, Secretary Gates calling for an additional 3,000 troops to be sent there, Marines. How much difficulty are we in, in Afghanistan, how much new difficulty?
GRANGE: Well, the problems right now in Afghanistan is there is a Taliban and al Qaeda resurgence. They do control some of the areas. They need to be taken on; more troops are needed for that. Something must be done with the to-and-from Pakistan of Taliban from the sanctuaries there and something must be done about the increasing heroin trade. So not only troops, but other governmental agencies and resources must be applied in order to make that country work.
DOBBS: During the course of the U.S. involvement in Pakistan since the invasion six years ago, the reality is that the poppy trade in Afghanistan has reached record levels. Why in the world would the United States military permit such a thing?
GRANGE: The military can do very little about it. The whole issue on the poppy trade is this. Substitute crops will work, but you need a transition phase. In other words, it has to be proven to the locals that something else is viable, so what we must do is out buy the Taliban on the poppy crop and actually get into the drug business during the transition to an alternate crop substitution.
DOBBS: Not a favorable or positive alternative there for the U.S. interests and certainly not for the U.S. military. Is it your judgment that we are going to see this war in Iraq progress satisfactorily to the point that we will see substantial withdrawal of our troops over the course of the next 12 months?
GRANGE: I think they will go down in the next 12 months to at least 15 brigades, three to 5,000 apiece, maybe less. You know there are very positive results of the Iraqi security force training, over 100,000 trained this year with 80 percent reliability, which is definitely different from the years prior to this.
DOBBS: Absolutely. General David Grange, thank you.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: A critical flaw in one of this country's oldest fighter jets could ground nearly 200 F-15 aircraft forever. Investigators have found that a manufacturing defect caused a sudden breakup of an F-15 over the skies of Missouri on November 2nd. The pilot ejected but he was severely injured. The air force has grounded 170 older F- 15s. That leaves about 240 of the aircraft still in service. The stand-down does not affect nearly 300 of the newer F-15E aircraft, those aircraft used for ground attack missions in both Iraq and Afghanistan still today.
Coming up next, new evidence that foreign governments are trying to profit from the mortgage crisis threatening the very survival of this country's middle class. What is your government doing about it? Christine Romans will have the report for us -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as middle class homeowners search for relief from the housing crisis, the crown jewels of America's financial system are looking to foreign governments for help -- Lou.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks, looking forward to that. And a new warning about a highly addict difference drug pouring across our border, but incredibly Congress has slashed funds for law enforcement agencies fighting the drug cartels. And Mexico, well it is losing its war against those cartels. A defeat for Mexico could have very serious consequences for the United States. Why aren't we doing more? We'll have the special report and a great deal next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Startling evidence tonight that former armed Mexican military personnel are crossing the border with the United States into this country while working for Mexican drug smugglers. At the same time, the war between the Mexican military and those drug cartels is escalating just south of the border. Casey Wian now reports on the vicious battles raging along our border with Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another wave of deadly shootouts involving Mexican federal troops and alleged drug cartel members just across the Texas/Mexico border. Wednesday in the town of Rainoso (ph), two Mexican federal soldiers were killed, the latest victims of President Felipe Calderon's war on drug traffickers.
FRANCISCO LOPEZ, WITNESS (through translator): Shots were heard. They started over there by the corner and ends up here. And later we heard bazookas or grenades or something.
WIAN: Tuesday nearby Rio Bravo, Mexican troops killed three suspected drug cartel members and apprehended 10 others.
PRES. FELIPE CALDERON, MEXICO (through translator): Our obligation is the authority of order within the government is to persevere in the fight against organized crime until we take complete control over public life in the country.
WIAN: Two of the captured suspects are residents of Detroit, and another is from Texas. It is another reminder that Mexican drug cartels have spread far into the United States. Also this week, more evidence of possible links between those cartels and some Mexican troops in law enforcement. The conservative group Judicial Watch released documents it obtained from the Department of Homeland Security revealing 253 Mexican military and law enforcement incursions across the U.S. border from 1996 through 2006. Many of those incidents involved armed uniformed personnel assisting drug and alien smugglers.
CHRIS FARRELL, JUDICIAL WATCH: There never seems to be a really very strong sort of hey, cut it out, you know, this is -- you're crossing our border armed deliberately. Just seems like it's treated as sort of a diplomatic affair where you know perhaps notes of protest are exchanged but that's about it.
WIAN: Yet violence between drug smugglers and Mexican troops and police continues all along our nation's southern border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: In a statement, the Department of Homeland Security says irrespective of the circumstance, every incursion is taken seriously and appropriately resolved. At the local level, U.S. customs and border protection leadership maintains open dialogue with Mexican government officials to resolve and implement measures to prevent accidental incursions -- Lou.
DOBBS: Whatever in the world that meant. Thank you very much, Department of Homeland Security as usual, for straightforwardness and honesty and vibrant, vigorous response to an affront against this nation's sovereignty. Michael Chertoff, at what point could there be a proceeding against him? He has become an absolute embarrassment to this country.
WIAN: I'm not sure how to answer that, Lou. I don't know what kind of proceeding you mean.
DOBBS: The proceeding I would mean would be any that would remove him from office, but I suppose that if we got that started the entire administration would unravel in a matter of time. Thank you very much, Casey Wian. Appreciate it. This is an outrage and the fact that this administration is not speaking directly to it with considerable conviction is an embarrassment enough for all of us. Thank you, Casey Wian.
Well up next, Mayor Bloomberg weighing that Independent presidential bid that he said he didn't want to make. Why he just might succeed where other Independents have failed should he decide to do something he said he wasn't going to do. We'll have all of that and more up here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, a warning from the federal drug czar who says skyrocketing amounts of a new and highly addictive illegal drug are flowing into the United States across our border with Canada. This new development comes as lawmakers cut hundreds of millions of dollars from a law enforcement program to fight drug crimes. Louise Schiavone has our special report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's drug czar comes this alarming word. The illegal recreational drug ecstasy now laced with methamphetamine is pouring across the Canadian border, almost six million tablets seized at the border at last count, up from half a million in 2003.
SCOTT BURNS, DEPUTY DRUG CZAR: This news today is the first attempt to get the word out to law enforcement and others that it's starting to creep back. We don't want to go back five or six or seven years when methamphetamine and ecstasy was so popular.
SCHIAVONE: Law enforcement across the nation warns that's exactly what's going to happen as a result of a last-minute assault on federal funds to state and local law enforcement.
RON BROOKS, NAT'L NARCOTICS OFFICERS ASSN.: Drug use in America is really our own homegrown domestic terrorism. It's a bio-chem attack on America. They're not looking at the impact in communities big and small across this country.
SCHIAVONE: As Christmas approached and Congress and the president crammed hundreds of billions of dollars into a catch-all spending bill, negotiators agreed that a federal grant program to boost law enforcement at states and localities would be slashed by roughly $300 million. Critics say it couldn't have come at a worse time.
MICHAEL W. CUTLER, FORMER AGENT: Downright outrageous that they would at this point in time, especially during an election season, have the chutzpah as we say back in New York to cut the funding to such a critical portion of the law enforcement community, whose mission it is to protect our country against the flood of illegal drugs. It makes absolutely no sense.
SCHIAVONE: The Bush administration says it is part of an overall effort to restrain spending.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With diminishing resources in all categories, tough decisions have to be made.
SCHIAVONE: Police departments across the nation are raising red flags about the cuts, warning they stand to lose whatever momentum they have made in the fight against illegal drugs and the violence it breeds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, representatives of law enforcement are lining up allies in Congress to reverse these cuts and they plan to make the case in person when Congress returns later this month -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, making it in person, it is disgusting. I was talking about Michael Chertoff and the Department of Homeland Security. This entire administration should be held accountable for what they are doing to the American people. Trying to rationalize a failure to enforce border security, port security, to win the war on drugs and at the same time, slashing budgets while sacrificing millions of young lives to alcohol and to substance abuse. I mean this is a disgusting performance, a legacy this president, I can't imagine being too proud of. But more than that, why in the world the American people are tolerating this level of performance from our government is beyond me. Louise, thank you very much, Louise Schiavone from Washington, D.C.
Let's take a look now at some of your thoughts. Timothy in New York wrote in to say, "Lou, Hillary and Barack both talk about wanting change but neither defines exactly what type of change they want, so I'm thinking of going into my coffee can full of change and sending them some pennies, pennies for their thoughts."
And Bobbi in Illinois wrote in about our poll last night. "Voting is the right of American citizens and no rights are violated if they are asked to show absolute identification before they are allowed to vote in any election. If they are legal citizens, they shouldn't have any problems with showing identification to prevent fraud."
And Joseph in New York, "Dear Mr. Dobbs, I have to show I.D. to get money out of the bank, use my credit cards, enter a federal building, go on an airplane, get a library card, et cetera, et cetera. Which one of these activities is more precious than voting?"
I think you have a wonderful point. We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read receives a copy of my new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit". It's the book that corporate America, the ACLU and the Democrats and Republican Parties simply don't want you to read. Let's spoil their day.
Time now for tonight's poll -- the question is do you believe the failure of the Democratic candidates to deal decisively with illegal immigration and border security crisis in this campaign will cost them the general election? Yes or no. We would love to hear from you at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.
Turning to another critical issue facing this nation, our mortgage crisis, financial institutions making huge profits before the crisis from middle class Americans primarily, who are now, many of them, in danger of losing their homes. Those very same institutions are looking for bailouts now, not just from our government but from foreign governments as well. Christine Romans has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): The U.S. economy is on the verge of recession if not already in one. It's the worst five-day start of the year for the stock market since the 1930s. And the sub prime crisis may be just beginning, a fifth of all sub prime loans today are delinquent by 90 days or more. The fed chief acknowledges the chilling effect on the rest of the economy.
BEN BERNANKE, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: Other types of assets that have seen a cooling of investor interest include loans for commercial real estate projects and so-called leveraged loans which are used to finance mergers and leveraged buyouts.
ROMANS: That hurts the big banks and financial companies, the crown jewels of the American financial system who have already suffered tens of billions of dollars in losses. While middle class homeowners desperate for relief have few places to turn, those banks, who made huge bad bets on mortgages, are now turning to foreign governments for help.
Citigroup and Merrill Lynch said to be courting foreign governments for cash, eager to tap into so-called sovereign wealth funds for much-needed capital. Morgan Stanley and Bear Stearns have already turned to Chinese-government linked investors for billions.
Senator Chuck Schumer, chairman of the powerful Joint Economic Committee, warns quote, "Foreign investment in general strengthens our economy and creates jobs, because sovereign wealth funds by definition are potentially susceptible to non-economic interests. The closer they come to exercising control and influence, the greater concerns we have."
But the fact is America is for sale. The dollar is weak and there are trillions in the coffers of foreign governments because of America's reliance on imported manufactured goods and oil and years of deficit spending.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: The powerful players are lining up to protect themselves while hundreds of thousands of American homeowners are worried they will soon be packing their bags. A note tonight, Lou, also on Countrywide Financial, the nation's largest mortgage lender and the target of fierce criticism that have put Americans into loans they could never afford, numerous reports have Bank of America in final talks to buy Countrywide. That could mean according to the proxy, a substantial, substantial payment for its CEO, Angelo Mozilo, by my count here, some $87 million.
DOBBS: Just 87 million in a separation package if they sell out.
ROMANS: According to the proxy statement, yes, 87 million...
DOBBS: What was the stock a year ago?
ROMANS: I think it was in the 70's a year ago, $70 a share.
DOBBS: What is the stock now?
ROMANS: It got down to $5 and change this week, so...
DOBBS: So he can make $87 million for destroying a company. Oh, that's beautiful. You know, you're right. I want to apologize to all those brilliant economists out there, those faith-based economists who told us how brilliant free trade is, how you have got to be able to pay for talent like this. You geniuses are teaching young people in our universities and colleges this nonsense. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Wake up. Start thinking independently. Start applying critical judgment and for crying out loud, read those books that supposedly underlie your education in economics because I have a feeling you have forgotten a few basic tenets. This is embarrassing. It is disgusting. It is outrageous and it goes on and on in this administration with this grinning President Bush at its helm while this mess widens and worsens. It's incredible.
ROMANS: You can only hope that the sub prime crisis isn't just beginning as a lot of people are saying they think it is, Lou, and that we are moving down the track to try to get some real solutions.
DOBBS: I'll tell you, the shareholders of Bank of America better hope that this is -- we are nearing the end of this crisis because for them, it could only be beginning if Countrywide's problems were to worsen while being purchased by BOA.
ROMANS: And if indeed that deal does go through.
DOBBS: And of course we need to look of course to our friends in the Middle East and elsewhere, because these companies, these geniuses, by the way, who keep talking about free trade, these CEOs and their investors all now dependent on foreign capital to save themselves.
I mean, this is what we're looking at here today. We are seeing stripped away the lies, the subterfuge, the outright disgusting dishonesty of corporate America and the policies that they have been pursuing and the public policies that have been perpetrated by this administration and the previous administration and both political parties. Christine, thank you very much. Stay on them - Christine Romans.
Coming up next, voters have had a belly full of Washington insiders and partisan blather but will they support an Independent presidential candidate? We'll have a special report.
Also tonight, Democratic and Republican presidential candidates. You know the two parties that brought you this current mess? Well, they're trying to avoid discussing their experience and their records on the campaign trail. Wait a minute. What's this all about? We'll tell you.
And Senator Hillary Clinton facing a tough fight with Senator Obama, who's also facing a tough fight with Senator Hillary Clinton. They're both facing a tough fight with John Edwards. It gets more complicated. Three top radio talk show hosts join us to tell us what they think is important in this critical political year. Stay with us, we're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New York's Mayor Michael Bloomberg will decide by early march whether or not he will, in fact, enter the presidential race as an Independent, according to a source close to the mayor. Mayor Bloomberg this week called for an end to the partisanship and the special interest control of Washington. Yay, Mr. Mayor. The question is now, what can he do about it, can he win? Our senior political analyst Bill Schneider says he just might have a shot.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Oh, Mayor Bloomberg. Your lips say no, no, no.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: We even have two people from New York who are candidates for president of the United States. I'm not sure the state needs a third.
SCHNEIDER: But your actions say, maybe.
There was the New York mayor last week at a bipartisan forum called to explore new political options.
DAVID BOREN, BIPARTISAN FORUM HOST: We might have to have some shock therapy through an independent candidacy.
SCHNEIDER: Now Bloomberg is starting an expensive research effort to assess whether there's a market for an Independent candidate this year. Is there?
Americans are certainly fed up with Washington and with politics as usual, just as they were in 1992, when Ross Perot ran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS PEROT (I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you want to fix the engine, you got to lift up the hood, get under there, and go to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER: Bloomberg, who has been a Democrat and a Republican and is now an Independent, has a similar message.
BLOOMBERG: What we want to do is find ways to get the partisanship out of politics, to get the special interests out.
SCHNEIDER: Bloomberg, like Perot, is rich enough to finance his own campaign. Perot got nearly 20 percent of the vote in 1992, but he didn't carry a single state.
Do Bloomberg's prospects look any better? It depends on who the Democratic and Republican candidates are. Will the parties nominate candidates who have broad enough appeal to unite the country or will they nominate divisive candidates with highly partisan support?
Partisan and divisive nominees would leave a lot of room in the center for a Bloomberg candidacy. He has to wait and see who the nominees are.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Mayor Bloomberg is from the most Democratic part of the country, the Northeast. And his views are much closer to the Democratic Party than to the Republican Party. That's why Democrats are worried that he would split the Democratic vote and help elect a Republican, just what they need, they say, a Ralph Nader with money. Lou?
DOBBS: Well he has quite a bit of money, too. As a matter of fact, he makes Ross Perot look a little impoverished by comparison. But I thought it was interesting you talked about partisanship and divisiveness. The fact is this country is divided. It is a partisan divide. It is a divide that has been with us now for the better part of certainly 25 years. That really can't fall on his shoulders. As we look at that conference that he went on out in Oklahoma, that looked like, frankly, political cover, contrived by either he, Bloomberg, or his supporters to give him the opportunity to go into a campaign where he just might cost the Democrats some considerable support.
SCHNEIDER: That's right. That very well could happen. But you know, the question is does he have a chance to win? That could happen if the Republican Party splits. I can see a scenario if the Republicans nominated McCain or Giuliani or Huckabee, I think there's a scenario where the Republicans might divide, too. And that would open the door for an Independent to get elected.
DOBBS: You left out Romney. Any reason?
SCHNEIDER: Well, OK, Romney. I just didn't think of him.
DOBBS: And the other idea that this campaign, you know, has a few surprises left in it, that appeals to me as well. Appreciate it. Bill Schneider, thank you.
Governor Bill Richardson based his campaign on a long record of public service and today, his campaign ended. Governor Richardson raised the question of whether experience counts in the minds of American voters. Dan Lothian has our report from Columbia, South Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D-NM), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How are you, sir? I'm Bill Richardson.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If experience were the only qualification, New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson would be a shoo-in for president. But the former congressman, ambassador and cabinet member couldn't get any traction.
RICHARDSON: It is with great pride, understanding and acceptance that I am ending my campaign for president of the United States.
LOTHIAN: In his final debate, Richardson seemed frustrated by the notion that experience was a liability.
RICHARDSON: Look, what we need is change. There's no question. But, you know, whatever happened to experience? Is experience kind of a leper?
LOTHIAN: After all, two other veteran politicians, long-time senators Joe Biden and Chris Dodd, had already dropped out. They all have the kind of experience that some say still matters.
DENNIS BUTT, RESIDENT OF SOUTH CAROLINA: I want somebody that knows what they're doing.
CHARLES BIERBAUER, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA: We want people who understand what's going on, but those aren't always the people that excite us.
LOTHIAN: Charles Bierbauer, at the University of South Carolina, says many voters are looking for much more.
BIERBAUER: They want people who they are comfortable with, they are confident with, and they know have good advice coming to them.
LOTHIAN: Jason Ertter says, frustration with Washington has given experience a bad name.
JASON ERTTER, RESIDENT OF SOUTH CAROLINA: So, they don't want somebody who has been there for decades or, you know, 20, 25 years. They want somebody that is new.
LOTHIAN: Senator Barack Obama got attention with his message of change. And that theme is now being echoed by Senator Hillary Clinton, who had built her campaign on experience.
BIERBAUER: Change, change, change, you hear it from every candidate now, even those who might normally be touting their experience.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: There is a difference certainly here in South Carolina between how the older voters and younger voters view this issue of experience. Seniors tend to want their presidential hopefuls to have a long, established track record, and to really know a whole lot about all the issues that directly impact them. Lou?
DOBBS: With some knowledge, it would be refreshing to know what in the world are their positions on these issues. The Democrats in terms of illegal immigration, border security, what they are going to do about failing public schools. The Republicans, what they are going to do about the idiotic free trade policies that have been pursued irrespective of the damage to working men and women in this country. What they are going to do about the crisis in public education, our illegal immigration crisis. And what we hear is blather and more blather, and national news media, all of us, have got to do a far better job of driving them to a position and a clear position on each of these critically important issues. Don't you agree, Dan?
LOTHIAN: Well, certainly the voters out there do want the message. That can't be discounted. They want more but they still want to go through the message each candidate will have. The candidates have to give it to them. And certainly, yeah, a lot of the things that are covered sometimes are personality. In this campaign, we have heard a lot about personality but the message is still important.
DOBBS: And that position, no matter how uncomfortable it is for those candidates, we will keep trying. Dan, thank you very much -- Dan Lothian from the next battlefield or certainly one of the next battlefields, South Carolina.
Coming up next, experience endorses change, my gosh. Senator Kerry endorsing Senator Obama. Is that good or is that bad for Obama's campaign? I'll be talking with three of the country's top radio talk show hosts, here next.
And states backing away from plans that we have been told were certain to give legal driver licenses to illegal aliens. And more states moving to fight illegal immigration because they have had a belly full of what we call a government - a federal government. We'll talk with the governor of Minnesota Tim Pawlenty here, who is taking action on his own. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
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DOBBS: You know the furor that ensued when Governor Eliot Spitzer of New York tried to give driver's licenses to illegal aliens. Well it turns out four of the seven states now are talking about withdrawing. Three of them have done so, the opportunity for illegal aliens to have driver's licenses. Those being Oregon, Michigan and Hawaii.
The state of Minnesota now is one of a rising number of states fighting back against the impact of illegal immigration. Among a number of executive orders this week, Governor Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota has decided to root out any state documents, including driver's licenses, that have been obtained through fraud. Governor Pawlenty joins us now. Good to have you with us.
GOVERNOR TIM PAWLENTY, MINNESOTA: Good to hang with you, sweet Lou.
DOBBS: This is Governor Pawlenty, right? It's good to have you here.
PAWLENTY: Yes, yes it is.
DOBBS: The reality is you have taken action through executive order. Why so?
PAWLENTY: Well, my legislature refused to act after we made similar proposals a few years ago, so we went back to the drawing boards and decided we could do some of this through executive order and just did it unilaterally through executive action.
DOBBS: And why take this route rather than through legislative means?
PAWLENTY: Well, the legislature refused to act. As you know, we have a crisis in the country. Our immigration situation is chaotic. It is undermining the rule of law and it's hurting our economy, in many respects and our criminal justice system. So we just couldn't stand by any longer, Lou. We had to take some action.
DOBBS: Now when the state legislature begins its session, you are going to call for more action to deal with the impact of illegal immigration. I would like to put this up for our viewers to see amongst the things you are calling for, to cut funding to sanctuary cities in your state.
I understand there are three in your state. Strengthen human trafficking law and to increase employer sanctions and strengthen penalties for identity theft. You call these common sense measures. Your state legislature, are they going to, do you believe, to the best of your knowledge and understanding, do you believe they are going to support you?
PAWLENTY: No. Their reaction to those proposals was that they're against it and they question my motives or call it political but if you go down that list, I would suggest to you a majority of Minnesotans and a majority of Americans would say that's the least we can do with respect to combating illegal immigration.
My goodness, who's against cracking down on human trafficking and stiffer penalties for that? And who would be against cracking down on identity fraud and theft generally or as applied to illegal immigration and the like? It just goes to show how inane the debate has become where people won't talk about the merits of the issues, they just slap on labels.
DOBBS: And do you think you're going to have sufficient support to sustain the fight against the impact of illegal immigration in your state?
PAWLENTY: Yes, we can't go as far as we would like without legislative help but we will go as far as we can through executive action. And we'll keep promoting this and eventually the people of Minnesota will demand action from the legislature, Lou. So we'll make some progress. We have in the past, too.
DOBBS: All right, governor. I have to say, I haven't been taken aback too often but being greeted with Sweet Lou and hanging with you took me there. I appreciate it.
PAWLENTY: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Thanks a lot. Coming up at the top of the hour, "OUT IN THE OPEN" with Rick Sanchez. Rick, what have you got?
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Lou. Gloria Steinem is a feminist and she's come out and said something that's somewhat controversial. She's saying that it's harder for a woman to run for president than it is for a black man. It's almost like a debate between racism versus sexism. We're going to debate it ourselves and look into that. Also, politics, politics, politics, there's a lot of that going on. And we're going to bring it to you from both sides. But the big story we're going to focus on today is a woman who's a Marine, she's missing, she's pregnant, and she was supposed to testify in an upcoming case in Camp Lejeune. There are new details about what may have happened to her and we're going to have it for you. We're going to nail it down and drill down on it right here at the top of the show.
DOBBS: Look forward to it, Rick. Thank you very much.
Up next here, a third party campaign in the wings? Mayor Mike Bloomberg appears to be ready to take steps to join the race for the White House 2008.
And Rudy Giuliani telling pundits to turn down the noise. He put my picture in that ad. That was a mistake, Mr. Mayor. All of that and more when we continue with our political roundtable. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Joining me now, three of my favorite radio talk show hosts. In our D.C. bureau, Joe Madison, WOL Radio, XM Radio and just about every other media of communication. Good to have you with us.
In Chicago, Steve Cochran, WGN Radio.
STEVE COCHRAN, WGN IN CHICAGO: Can I be your favorite? Can I actually be your favorite, Lou?
DOBBS: You will have that, I bestow that great honor upon you even though you threatened me with a meeting on my tardiness in coming to you. I heard that.
COCHRAN: That's not true. I hate meetings as much as you do.
DOBBS: Amen, brother.
And joining us in our studios in New York City, Laura Flanders, Air America. Laura, good to have you here.
Let's start with John Kerry endorsing Barack Obama. Laura, my gosh, he's a shoe-in now, isn't he?
LAURA FLANDERS, AIR AMERICA: Well, I don't know about that. I mean this is all about vets and lists and Massachusetts. It's not going to do him much good in South Carolina. Let's remember, Edwards beat Kerry handily.
DOBBS: Exactly and the timing.
FLANDERS: You were talking about the system. One of the aspects of our system is the candidates walk away with unbelievable mailing lists. I think that one thing Obama may get out of the Kerry list is a lot of veterans' names. That's not a group he's been doing very well with. So I think there may be advantage for him there. In Massachusetts, he has now got two of the big three elected officials up there, Deval Patrick and Kerry.
DOBBS: Steve?
COCHRAN: I'm just glad to hear that there is something positive that comes out of this because my initial response when I heard about this was that Edwards and Obama would be fighting over who had to take the endorsement because this is not exactly thunderous. This is not something like OK, we can order balloons for the party now. You know what I'm saying?
JOE MADISON, WOL IN WASHINGTON: I honestly think that Hillary Clinton is probably going to get more traction now out of Jackie Jackson endorsing her in South Carolina, you know, Jackie Jackson is from South Carolina. Obviously it's going to play to that 50 percent African-American Democratic registered vote. Here's a Yankee coming to South Carolina, one who failed down there. I mean, you know --
DOBBS: Tell everybody who Jackie Jackson is.
MADISON: Jesse Jackson's wife. Oh, OK, I'm sorry. I assumed --
DOBBS: What's Jesse's son doing these days?
MADISON: And Jesse's son is supporting Obama. You know, hey, it sounds like my family.
DOBBS: Or mine or I'm sure any of us. I'm the guy calling for everybody to focus on the issues but this is getting too bizarre and too delicious, I suppose.
MADISON: But it's early. It's like Edwards said, one down and 99 to go. Enjoy it.
COCHAN: Well Joe and Lou and everybody, this is like a marriage. And that's why what happened the other night was great because we shouldn't know the answers now. Because these candidates are trying to get us to marry them. And when you get married, before you, you know, before you well fool around, you better at least make sure you like the person. So that's what this whole period's about. And then we'll have four years with somebody and then we'll decide we're sick of them and we want to marry somebody else.
DOBBS: I think you're one of the wittiest, cleverest, most intelligent, informed people in communications and the media. But I have to tell you, the metaphor of marriage as applied to presidents, you have just scared the dickens out of me.
FLANDERS: I don't want to go there for sure.
MADISON: What I'm really sick and tired of is all this change, change, change, and no one is giving details, and you know --
DOBBS: Absolutely. Amen. Amen. MADISON: When I saw yesterday's program and they were jumping you, Lou, about immigration, I'm going to tell you something. On my show today, they better start listening to the people because if they think that they aren't going to be taken to task on that issue --
DOBBS: Absolutely.
MADISON: They are going to have a rude awakening and I hope we in the media make them as uncomfortable to answer these questions as possible.
FLANDERS: I hope that with the departure of Richardson from the race, we don't lose some of clarity of the issues around Iraq. But his failure to gain traction is something we can talk about. But at least he was establishing some clear agenda on Iraq. No residual troops, no permanent bases. I hope we're not going to lose even that bit of substance in this afraid. But I'm afraid we are.
MADISON: Well, I'm disappointed. I had him on my show the other day and he promised to name me assistant secretary of the state of African-American affairs. So there goes that job.
COCHRAN: The only job he doesn't have.
DOBBS: Seriously though Joe, whoever wins, in all seriousness, whoever does win ought to consider you for that job because nobody has done any more than you.
MADISON: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Your knowledge and activity there has been remarkable.
COCHRAN: You know, Lou, before we run out of time too, the other thing that I think is crucial, because this whole thing about not bringing up issues is a big, big, big deal. I love Barack Obama's speeches. I would buy them on DVD, but there's not a lot of content there yet.
And people need to start demanding content. I want to know what these people plan to do about China. When are we going to hold China's feet to the fire? Afghanistan, Pakistan? How about a living wage for the military? There are a million issues out there. Some stance needs to be taken on this.
FLANDERS: You're absolutely right, Lou, to be criticizing the media coverage of this race for being too much about style and not enough about substance, but that's the nature of the media today on all sorts of issues.
COCHRAN: Don't put up with it, voters. Don't put up with it.
FLANDERS: Don't put up with it, but we've got to do better not just on the demanding of the candidates, but in our own reporting.
DOBBS: I think you're right, Laura. And we're going to have the opportunity to do better in just one minute. We are going to come back. We're going to talking with Steve Cochran - well, we're not going to be because Steve has to go. He's being a little snooty, throwing me aside.
COCHRAN: I'm fine Lou. Lou, here's the deal. Just for you, just tonight, I have extended the program. So all of our affiliates along the networks. So I'm fine, you do what you need to do.
DOBBS: You're great, Steve, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Laura Flanders, Joe Madison. We'll all be back in just a moment. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Joining us again here Joe Madison in Washington D.C. Here in New York with me, Laura Flanders. Steve Cochran in a huff left, even though he promised he would faithfully stay with us. He had to break away. We forgive him for that, I think.
Let me turn to you, Joe Madison. You talked with Bill Richardson. The impact of his withdrawal, who do you think he will support? Do you have any instinct on that?
RICHARDSON: I really don't know. It did come up today. He told me that he was going to stay through February and he had enough resources to do it. There are those who are suggesting that maybe...
DOBBS: ... Well maybe it doesn't matter else he said then after that.
MADISON: Well, that might be true. But there are some suggesting that maybe he was tempted to get out so that he could in fact endorse someone like Hillary Clinton. It could go either way. I really honestly don't know. But I think that's probably what's going on now that they're getting ready to go into the southwest and I look for him to be a major endorser and a player in that are.
FLANDERS: Yes, I think it's interesting that he bailed out before the Nevada primaries, where he was liable to pick up a bunch of delegates.
DOBBS: He was talking about how eager he was to get to that race.
MADISON: He was very eager.
FLANDERS: More of a pitch for the vice presidential position, it seems to me. But again, I do want to stress I hope that his clarity around Iraq doesn't disappear from this race.
DOBBS: Well, the clarity for the Democratic candidates around the war in Iraq may be a major liability for them, because we continue to see the surge strategy work.
FLANDERS: We continue to see U.S. forces killed. And while they talk about the effect of the surge, what they are really looking at is the effect of ethnic cleansing. So that's a whole other conversation. MADISON: And Democrats quite honestly are just the polar opposite on Republicans on this issue, so, I don't think that that's -- the surge discussion is going to hurt them. I think they are going to stay true to the call to withdraw, withdraw, withdraw.
DOBBS: Real quickly. Gloria Steinem says it's tougher for a woman to run than a black man.
FLANDERS: Gloria Steinem said very clearly that racism and sexism are joined. You have to uproot one to uproot the other. We want to believe there's an either/or. What we need is more discussion of both.
MADISON: Well, I don't know how much she knows about being a black person running for president, you know. She obviously may know something about a woman, but you know, if it was Shirley Chisholm, I guess Shirley Chisholm would have had a very difficult being a woman and black, and she did pretty good. The reality is, that that kind of discussion, look, it's difficult running for president no matter who you are at this point in time. Period.
DOBBS: And I think it's pretty interesting, if I may be the Pollyanna in the group, that both the woman in this race and the black man in this race are doing pretty darn good.
MADISON: Not bad. Not bad at all. That's right.
DOBBS: Joe Madison, Laura Flanders, thank you very much. Thank you for being here.
MADISON: Thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: Our poll results, 78 percent of you say the failure of the Democratic candidates to deal decisively with illegal immigration and border security crisis will cost them in the general election.
We'll have your one last thought here, an e-mail from Carolyn in Indiana saying: "For my Christmas present to me, I bought your book 'Independents Day' and it's the best present I've ever gotten, even if I bought it myself. As a result of watching you the last two years and reading your book, for the first time in my life, I have registered to vote. I have officially the ranks of the Independents. God bless you, and thank you."
And if your e-mail is read here, you receive a copy of my new book. And by the way, after those kind words, you are going to receive more than that. We're going to think of something kind of special. The book is "Independents Day." Buy it. Thanks for being with us tonight. Join us here from tomorrow. Good night from New York. "OUT IN THE OPEN" with Rick Sanchez begins right now. Rick?
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