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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit
Aired January 15, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Independent voters could determine the outcome of today's Republican primary in Michigan., In fact, independent voters could determine the decision 2008 results for this presidential contest.
The first results from Michigan are expected within the hour. We will have those results for you as soon as they come in.
We're also on standby at the candidates' headquarters for the very latest from them, Mitt Romney, Senator John McCain, Mike Huckabee all making our worsening economy the top issue in their campaigns over the past two weeks. Michigan is on the front line of the war on our middle class. The state's manufacturing industry has simply been devastated by faith-based economic policies.
The unemployment rate in Michigan is nearly 7.5 percent. That is the nation's highest.
Bill Tucker has our report from Madison Heights, Michigan -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as you noted, the economy is the number-one issue here in Michigan. And this factory where I'm standing now is a good example of why. They used to make auto parts here. Some 90 people on any given day came here to work and earned a paycheck. They don't anymore. And their story, the story of Michigan, is the story of America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): Michigan is losing manufacturing jobs at an annual rate of 34,000. The annual rate loss for the country over the last seven years, 425,000, according to analysis of labor statistics by the Economic Policy Institute.
Five decades ago, more than a third of American workers earned their paychecks in manufacturing. Today, only 12 percent do. Over the last 10 years, not only has employment shrunk. Real factory output, output adjusted for inflation, has fallen, according to a study by the U.S. Business and Industry Council, an advocacy group like many others that is concerned about the effect the losses are having on jobs in this country.
ALAN TONELSON, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: It matters because manufacturing is the American economy's leader in creating high-wage jobs. And manufacturing is also the American economy's greatest generator of technological progress.
TUCKER: Those losses have come under the banner of free trade agreements, which have resulted in record trade deficits and granted multinational corporations access to cheap foreign labor at our expense.
ROB DUMONT, TOOLING, MANUFACTURERS AND TECHNOLOGIES ASSOCIATION: The reality is that the people who are voting are being put out of work and are finding themselves working part-time in Starbucks or working part-time in a hamburger joint. And the wage levels are completely different.
LIANA FOX, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: The manufacturing jobs that are leaving were on average paying $725 a week. And they're being replaced by lower-end service jobs. And on average the jobs, the overall jobs in Michigan pay about $608 a week.
TUCKER: Increasing stress on families and communities. In the Detroit area, local food bank resources are strained with demand up 13 percent. Manufacturers worry that our neglected policy means we're about to lose our manufacturing ability.
DAVE FRENGEL, COALITION FOR A PROSPEROUS AMERICA: The society doesn't seem to value it. The community doesn't value. A lot of the reason is because they have seen their grandfathers and fathers and uncles and aunts lose their jobs and invest a lot in a career and not be able to do anything there.
TUCKER: A manufacturing job supports approximately four other jobs in the economy. Nine percent of our scientists are employed in the manufacturing sector according to the Economic Policy Institute. But not all manufacturing or business groups see the job losses or rising trade deficits as signs of trouble.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: No, Lou, multinational companies and the groups they support, such as the National Association of Manufacturers, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, think that manufacturers taking advantage of cheap foreign labor overseas is exactly what they should be doing -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Bill Tucker from Madison Heights, Michigan.
Well, joining me now for more on the state of our economy and the challenges facing us all and whether any of these presidential candidates have any effective policy description, three of the smartest political analysts and observers in the country, in our Washington, D.C., bureau, CNN contributor Donna Brazile. She was Al Gore's campaign manager in 2000. Donna, good to have you with us.
DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: CNN contributor Bill Bennett, former education secretary and talk show host.
Good to have you with us, bill.
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: And here in New York, our very own senior political analyst, Bill Schneider.
As always, good to see you, Bill.
Bill Tucker has just laid out what is happening in the state of Michigan. How in the world is it that the two political parties could, first in the case of Republicans, cut the number of delegates for Republicans by half, and in the case of the Democratic Party tell the people of Michigan, go to hell, we're not going to give you delegates as a result of moving your primary up?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you might well call it an arrogant move. They say, they made the rules. They want to make sure the primary process is under control.
Here's a little secret. It ain't. It's not under control. The parties will have the primaries whenever they want, and the authorities in Michigan say, look, we're going to be seated at the convention. We're not worried.
DOBBS: They may not be worried. But the people of Michigan ought to be. They ought to be concerned with both their leadership in the state of Michigan, as well as the national leadership.
Donna, how in the world can a state that has the highest unemployment rate suffering the greatest impact from these faith-based trade policies that have resulted in devastation of manufacturing and certainly the automobile industry, rendered Detroit, a city in which 25 percent of its high school students graduate, 75 percent of whom drop out, how in the world is that tolerable to anyone?
BRAZILE: Well, Lou, we had a process. And while Michigan did apply to be one of the first states to go in this country, the Democrats and clearly the Republicans decided that we wanted some order in the process.
And this isn't about the people of Michigan or the issues or the concerns that they have. But it's about having an orderly process. As you well know, several states tried to jump ahead of the line. And on the Democratic side we had to impose a penalty, a sanction for essentially disobeying the rules.
DOBBS: Well, it's one of the reasons, Donna, that I think both political parties, you know, as I'm an independent populist, I think both political parties are well worth ignoring, if I may put it that way.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Bill Bennett...
BENNETT: Ignoring? Ignoring?
DOBBS: We're starting to hear a Republican talk a bit like a populist.
BENNETT: Yes.
DOBBS: Instead of talking about tax cuts to the wealthiest corporations or the wealthiest individuals, Mike Huckabee is starting to make noise like he's a Republican who actually cares about people. What in the world is happening?
BENNETT: Yes. That's what he's been saying all week.
Don't ignore the parties, Lou, at least not for now. Until you're ready to throw your hat in, or get Mike Bloomberg to, these are the parties we're working with.
Listen, I was on the phone today on my radio show for three hours with folks from Michigan. And they were actually a little more upbeat, I must say, than that segment. They think things can turn around. They were liking some of what they heard from Mike Huckabee.
Heard a lot of calls for Mitt Romney today. They thought he was on track with a lot of things. And, of course, John McCain was making a different move than he had earlier.
But I want to focus on one thing you were talking about...
DOBBS: Sure.
BENNETT: ... because I know we're going to do it later in the show, when you talk about Cincinnati -- Detroit public schools.
You talk about graduation rates of 25 percent, you're not going to build anything, not going to build any kind of future if kids don't know how to read and write and count and think. We know how to teach these things, but the lack of accountability in American public education -- I know that's a longer-term solution than what the politicians are talking about, but it's got to be addressed, because education is the key predictor in a child's life, after family.
DOBBS: Well, as the three of you know, this broadcast focuses on public education mightily...
BENNETT: Yes.
DOBBS: ... because we -- I certainly believe that public education is the absolute great equalizer in this society.
And why is it, Bill Schneider -- and I want to ask each of you -- why is it that both parties and all of these candidates haven't made a failing public education system a priority? Because it's an emergency. It's a crisis.
SCHNEIDER: It certainly is to the voters. Whenever we do a poll and we ask people what's the most important problem government should deal with, education is always right near the top. We're not hearing very much about it. I think the answer is, they don't have a lot new to say.
BRAZILE: That's not true.
Senator Clinton put out a very excellent pre-K through high school plan. Senator Obama has also got a very strong plan to strengthen our nation's public schools. They have criticized the No Child Left Behind because there's clearly not enough resources.
I think Democratic candidates have really talked about economy. They talked about trade, talking about jobs, maybe perhaps not in Detroit, but they're talking about it all over the country.
DOBBS: Yes.
BENNETT: They have got a -- Democrats have a basic teachers union program for education, which will improve a lot of teachers and the unions, not necessarily a lot of students.
All of the Republican candidates have plans. We can argue the merits of these later. But I will tell you, one other problem is they are not asked about them. In these interviews on TV, go to "Meet the Press," go even to good CNN, you are not going to get questions on education.
So, there's a media problem, too. People want to talk about race. People want to talk about the war. People want to talk about the things that titillate. Education, this generator of our well- being -- life is a race between education and catastrophe, H.G. Wells said -- they don't want to talk about that.
And everybody needs to talk about it more.
DOBBS: Well, this broadcast loves to talk about all those exciting issues, like public education, free trade, outsourcing of jobs...
BENNETT: Yes, sir.
DOBBS: ... border security, all that, because we're just drawn to those exciting topics and issues.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Bill Bennett, thank you very much.
Donna Brazile, thank you very much.
And, Bill Schneider, thank you very much. We will be talking with you soon. Thank you.
Up next: the grim reality of the war on our middle class. Working men and women in their families are facing immense challenges. We will introduce you tonight to a family who lived the American dream and who lost it.
And we're standing by to bring you the very first results from the Michigan primary. Romney supporters, as you see there, gathering at their campaign headquarters in Southfield, Michigan, they're of course anxious, as are all the rest of us, to find out just exactly what will happen tonight.
Stay with us. We continue in one moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Most polls in Michigan are now closed. And we are going to have those results as they begin to trickle in here. And that should happen within a matter of minutes. So, we will have the very latest for you from the Michigan primary.
Turning now to the harsh realities facing our middle class and the war on our middle class, that impact being felt all across the country, many Americans in fact are on the verge of losing everything they have ever worked for.
Christine Romans reports now on how one family went from living the American dream to fighting to survive.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wayne Young used to be a manager in the homebuilding industry. He worked 40 years to build his American dream. Then, two years ago, he got sick.
At first, doctors thought it was only a hernia. Last August, they realized he also had a rare form of abdominal cancer. After using up all his paid time off, he realized he would have to quit working.
WAYNE YOUNG, CANCER PATIENT: Even the doctors couldn't tell me what type of recovery period I would have. In fact, I was told that they anticipated that I would possibly be in the hospital 10 to 12 days. That turned into 51 days.
ROMANS: With the job went his family's health insurance. They have struggled to maintain coverage through a complicated web of secondary insurance and social services. For now, Wayne's wife, Vickie, stays home to take care of him. Social Security disability payments don't begin until March. They have little remaining savings and no income.
W. YOUNG: One day in the hospital is $600, $700. Spent 51 days in there, and it's a pretty healthy bill.
BENNETT: Now they're forced to sell the family home they bought just four years ago.
VICKIE YOUNG, WIFE OF WAYNE: I pulled halfway up in the driveway and called my husband I told him that I found our dream home. This is where we were going to live. And I really honestly felt like we would be here forever.
ROMANS: The bank says it will foreclose if they can't come up with six months of back payments by March 1. They expect to spent what's left of their $70,000 401(k) on a much smaller house.
W. YOUNG: I had just assumed I would work until I was 65 or 67 maybe, be ready for my Social Security, my wife and I spend our old age together in our retirement and live our life in a comfortable setting. This cancer came along and ended all that.
ROMANS: They played by the rules, working, saving, avoiding credit cards. Now they live day to day, the focus, beating Wayne's cancer.
V. YOUNG: The fact that he made it through surgery, that means more to me than this house or any car or anything else could. And that means more to me than anything else that they could take from me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Wayne and Vickie feel like the American dream has failed them, but their community has not. They say the utility companies forgave their bills and local church members paid one month of their mortgage.
He's determined to get back on his feet so that they can return that generosity. But, after 40 years of building the American dream, Lou, they are starting all over.
DOBBS: Well, as everyone else, certainly, we wish them the very best and hope that he recovers from his cancer soon.
The reality is, half of the bankruptcies in this country, just about half, are caused by a tragic illness like his, or chronic illnesses that just sap a family's income and their wealth. It's horrible. And the solutions are tough to get to.
BENNETT: That's absolutely right, Lou.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks -- Christine Romans.
Well, coming up here next, for many American business owners, illegal immigration is a deeply personal issue. We will have a special report next on the impact of our failed immigration policies, and we will take you live to the front lines of this presidential campaign -- reports tonight from McCain and Romney headquarters in South Carolina and Michigan.
We will have the results coming in from the Michigan primary. Most polls there are now closed, nearly all of them. And we should begin to get some results here pretty quick. And I want everybody to hurry up and get us those results.
We're coming right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Both political parties have been failing the American people when it comes to the issue of illegal immigration, border and port security. The issue has been all but ignored by presidential candidates, primarily Democratic presidential candidates, this year.
But, for countless Americans, it is a critically important and personal issue.
Casey Wian now has the story of one business owner who refused to hire illegal aliens. He played by the rules and he paid for it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joel Pierson owns this punch press, a quarter of a million dollar machine that makes holes in sheet metal. It used to be here at his former metal fabricating business in Simi Valley, California.
JOEL PIERSON, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT: I didn't get rich, but it was much better than I would have done had I worked for somebody else.
WIAN: Pierson's five-employee company grew to about a million dollars a year in sales, mostly to tech companies. The dot-com bust hurt, but Pierson says competitors employing low-cost illegal aliens finally drove him out of business.
J. PIERSON: I didn't hire illegal aliens. I was adamant about that.
WIAN: Pierson says his company collapsed after a competitor underbid him for a job by more than 50 percent.
J. PIERSON: He would not be able to take all the work that he has taken if it was not for the availability of illegal workers. I know that for sure. I have no doubt in my mind.
WIAN: Pierson's attorney specializes in cases like this and is considering suing the competitor under a novel legal theory.
DAVID KLEHM, ILLEGALEMPLOYERS.ORG: By subverting the law, by using illegal workers, they're gaining an unfair business advantage and are thus able to undercut somebody who is playing by the rules legitimately.
WIAN: Now Pierson occasionally uses his punch press on loan at a friend's shop 75 miles away. Tax regulations would wipe out any profit from selling the machine. The scattered fragments of his business only generate about $12,000 a year.
J. PIERSON: I blame the federal government. They're the enemy. I'm not the enemy of the people crossing the border. I understand their plight. I have lived in Central America. I know what poverty looks like.
WIAN: Pierson's wife is a legal immigrant from El Salvador .
MARTA PIERSON, WIFE OF JOEL PIERSON: I resent illegal immigration, because it is taking so much of people who have done it the right way.
WIAN: She works part-time teaching English to the children of immigrants, legal and illegal, at a public school.
M. PIERSON: We have our savings. That's what we live on right now, and my little income. But it's been hard, the adjustment.
J. PIERSON: Because I'm almost 60. And the only thing I know how to do is run these machines. I'm resilient. I can pick myself up. But I do wake up in the middle of the night thinking about what I was talking about with the federal government. Why don't they do what they're supposed to do? It's just that simple.
WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, Chino, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well, joining me now, CNN contributor Roland Martin, radio talk show host and nationally syndicated columnist, CNN contributor.
Roland, good to have you here.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Glad to be here.
DOBBS: Once again, our senior political analyst Bill Schneider joins us. And our senior political analyst Gloria Borger joins us.
Gloria, good to have you here.
The reaction when you watch a story as Casey Wian reported from Chino, California?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that immigration is going to become a very large issue in this presidential campaign because it is intertwined with the issue of the economy, which in all of our CNN polls and everyone else's polls show economy has now trumped every other issue in the American mind.
And when you talk about the economy, immigration is a natural spinoff of that, just as Casey's story showed. So, I think it's going to be front and center.
DOBBS: Would it surprise you if I were to tell you right out here in front of God and everybody, I had to convince CNN a couple years ago to include illegal immigration on a poll? Because we didn't even, in this organization, believe it was an important issue? Some of us didn't. Bill Schneider, the idea that the Democratic Party is not being polled in exit polls on the issue of illegal immigration, now, you and I have talked about this, the idea that the national press corps doesn't think it's an important issue for Democrats, making that a priori judgment, your thoughts?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it's not included in polls because the Democratic candidates don't talk about it much. There's kind of an agreement. They don't want to stir up a lot of passion on the issue.
Democrats certainly care about the issue.
DOBBS: And the national news organizations act in complicity with that motive on the part of these candidates and the Democratic Party.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, they do.
DOBBS: But shouldn't that bring a sense of shame to these organizations?
SCHNEIDER: I think it should. I think that they should poll on the issues that are of concern to the voters, whether or not the candidates talk about them.
DOBBS: Amen, brother.
Roland, the idea of illegal immigration not being put forward as -- we could see in poll after poll it was important to Americans all over the country, the idea that, so long, the national news media did not force these candidates to deal with issues of driver's licenses for illegal immigration, the issues of border security, it's remarkable, isn't it?
MARTIN: I'm an old newspaper guy. And they always said you write for the third- or the fifth-grade level.
Look, this is a complex issue. It's not a simple issue just cut and dry.
DOBBS: Right.
MARTIN: And, I think, oftentimes, we want to run away from the difficult issues. That's what happens.
And, so, this story was a great story, because we have been told illegal immigrants are doing jobs we don't want to do. This story says, that's not the case.
DOBBS: And we have been reporting these stories for four years. And it's starting to kind of sink in on some folks on that campaign trail.
The reality in Michigan, as we await those early results, any thoughts? BORGER: No. I think it will be interesting to see what is the top issue out there in Michigan. Obviously, you have to guess it's the economy, because the economy in Michigan is not doing very well.
DOBBS: And we should say -- Roland, I'm going to come to you -- we just received -- we about 100 votes in right now from the Democratic side. And amongst those 100 votes -- I don't have an exact vote total -- I'm not being given that by our producers -- but among those 100 votes on the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton has just moved ahead of uncommitted, which is the only other choice on the candidates.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: I have to say this in terms of -- I heard John McCain talk about retraining workers. To do what? When you talk about manufacturing jobs being lost...
BORGER: This job.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: And, then all of a sudden -- well, precisely.
Then, all of a sudden, you say computer jobs are now going overseas. What are we going to be left with? What are we retraining them for? How to shine shoes? How to clean bed -- how to change beds in hotels?
DOBBS: And what is remarkable is, these candidates in both political parties, Bill Schneider, continue to talk about that as an appropriate public policy response, to train somebody, instead of create the policies that would preserve a job, so that a man and woman can support themselves and their families and assure the American dream.
DOBBS: The American dream is about jobs. This country is not about politics. This country is about money. People come here to live the good life, to get rich. The job is at the center of that dream. Without a job, the American dream vanishes.
MARTIN: No job, no house. No house, you can't afford to pay school districts. You can't afford that, then you have cities that collapse. These why these cities are struggling with money as well, because you have no homeowner base. And, of course, with the mortgage crisis, it's going to get worse.
DOBBS: Yes.
And I want to say this country is about a hell of a lot more than money. I have got to get that in.
And we will take that up at another point.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: ... money, though.
(LAUGHTER)
BORGER: Values. We're about values.
DOBBS: Gloria, Bill, thank you very much.
Roland, thank you very much.
MARTIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next: more on the false choices that these presidential candidates of both parties are trying to offer voters. We will be focusing on the critical importance of independent thinking in this election.
And we will bring you the very latest from Michigan. The primary there is winding down, just a few more polls to close. About a percent of the vote, we're told, has just about been tallied.
And we will have reaction from the campaigns, including Huckabee headquarters in Lexington, South Carolina, next up.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The last of the polls in Michigan will be closing in just 30 minutes. Nearly all of the polls have closed. The first of the results are coming in. We have just about one percent of those ballots now counted. Wolf Blitzer is in our CNN Election Center. He has the very latest for us -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Let's set the stage, Lou. Remember, these are very, very early numbers. As you point out, most of the polls in Michigan are closed. There are some precincts where they remain open are the western side and the central times. All of those precincts will be closed by the top of the hour. And that's when we'll be able to make some projections, possibly make some projections.
Let's take a look at the key race right now. The Republican primary with one percent of the precincts now reporting. Mitt Romney has 41 percent of the votes, so far. John McCain is at 30 percent. Mike Huckabee, 13 percent. Ron Paul, 6 percent. If we take a look at the actual numbers, you'll see it's still very, very tiny right now. Only a small number have voted.
Romney, 2,600 or so. McCain, 1,900. Huckabee, 800 or so. Ron Paul, 300. Giuliani, 275. Fred Thompson, 245. It's still very, very early. But these are real numbers coming in, Lou, from the precincts so far.
On the Democratic side, you remember, this is really not all that significant because the Democrats in Michigan have been penalized by the National Party for holding their primary this early. They weren't supposed to go until February 5th. But right now, Hillary Clinton's name is on the ballot and she's getting 66 percent of the vote. Uncommitted 29 percent, everybody else a lot less. This has no real significance, as you know, Lou, because it's largely a beauty contest between Hillary Clinton, Hillary Clinton and uncommitted right now. So the Democratic contest, Michigan not very important.
We'll continue to watch it. All these numbers, Lou, very preliminary. We'll update our viewers all the time, and we'll keep a running tally at the bottom of the screen for viewers who are interested in the hard numbers. We'll see what happens when all the polls close at the top of the hour -- Lou.
DOBSS: Wolf, I mean, let's be fair to uncommitted here. Obama and Edwards both were urging people to vote. Their campaigns were urging people to vote uncommitted.
BLITZER: Right.
DOBBS: Even though Hillary is the only one on that.
BLITZER: But I'm saying that it really has no practical import as far as delegates are concerned to the Democratic party --
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: The Democratic party screwed the people of Michigan.
BLITZER: That is one way of interpreting it. That would be the Lou Dobbs way of interpreting it.
DOBBS: That would be the Lou Dobbs and the interpretation of this hour. So anyway, thank you very much, Wolf.
BLITZER: We'll be keeping an update all the time for you.
DOBBS: We appreciate it. You know, and it's great that you have got those raw totals because, you know, as we talk about one percent, two percent, the ability that you all have to bring those numbers up in absolute numbers is great. So thank you very much, Wolf. We'll look forward to the next round of results.
DOBBS: Dana Bash is live. She's with the Romney campaign in Southfield, Michigan. Dana?
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, there is definitely a raucous crowd here for Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney is actually upstairs in the hotel waiting and watching these results, but there is a feeling here in the Romney campaign that they have not had the entire election season. Even though he has spent more than $25 million on TV ads alone, despite the fact that he has campaigned very hard in the early contest days, they are feeling pretty good right now. They're cautiously optimistic, but they are feeling very good about the fact that he might have his very first big win here in Michigan.
It is a win that every Romney advisor says that he needed in order to really stay a viable candidate. So they are definitely watching. They're waiting. But they do think that, also, after -- on election season where he had a lot of trouble finding a message that worked for him, that he found a message here in his home state of Michigan. A message about the economy. A message about changing Washington.
And they say that even if he doesn't win, but they hope he does win, that if he will go on and continue that message that they think worked for him here because as you well know, Lou, the economy is now the number one nationally in the voters' minds. They think that if he can do it here, he can continue that in the days ahead -- Lou.
DOBBS: OK. Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash with the Romney campaign. And as Dana was talking about Romney's early lead, and we do mean early, it's about one percent of the votes have been counted at this point. Let me turn now again from our Washington, D.C. Bureau. CNN contributors Donna Brazile and Bill Bennett here in New York, senior political analyst Bill Schneider.
It looks like it's going to be from those early votes, if they were to hold up, Bill Schneider just observed, Bill Bennett, that we'd have our third comeback kid of this early primary process.
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That's right.
BILL SCHNEIDER, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: We've had one week. Over last week, there were two. Hillary Clinton and John McCain were comeback kids. Now, we've got Mitt Romney who comes in second, loses Iowa, loses New Hampshire and suddenly he rises from the ashes in Michigan and puts the Republican race in a lot of confusion.
DOBBS: Confusion, Bill Bennett?
BENNETT: Well, who's next? You know, it's got to give Fred Thompson, Rudy Giuliani help. It felt like Romney this morning on my radio show, I had a lot of calls from Michigan. It sure felt that way and that's the way it seems at headquarters. This really throws the thing into a cocktad (ph), though. We don't know where it's going from here.
Where does Romney go? If he wins this, where does he go? My guess is he stops in South Carolina, but he really goes to Florida. But who knows? Men, three primaries or caucuses, three different winners. It's really something.
DONNA BRAZILE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He goes to Nevada, Bill, and he goes with a message on the economy. Look, I think Mitt Romney campaign is a favorite son when John McCain dismissed a couple of weeks ago that those jobs that people have lost in Detroit perhaps will not come back. Mitt Romney jumped on John McCain's case and he went back to Michigan and he said I'm going to make sure we get those jobs back. He handled it like a businessman, and I think you see the results. He's a favorite son, and they gave him a big shot in the arm it looks like.
BENNETT: The most optimistic and hopeful of the candidates. Lou, unlike your last segment where you and Roland were looking down at your shoes about America. You know, I mean --
DOBBS: Woe, woe, woe, woe, woe, woe. You'll never see me look down my shoes at America. You may see me try to scrape something off my shoes when it comes to partisan politics, partner, for these candidates.
BENNETT: But Lout -- Lou, it is America. The notion that you shouldn't go to school and get knowledge because all you've got is a shoe shine job which was said by one of the people in your panel and you agreed with is wrong. Absolutely wrong.
DOBBS: What in the world are you talking about?
BENNETT: That was what Roland Martin said. Why should we educate and train people? For what jobs? Like shining shoes? That was said. Play back the transcript. Education is the key to success in this country.
DOBBS: You said I agreed with any -- partner, you know what I think about education in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: I know --
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You also ought to think about the free trade, faith-based idiots like the Republican party has produced for the past decade in this country who created those job disasters in the state of Michigan and around the country.
BENNETT: Well, I thought you -- I thought you --
DOBBS: And let's get to the reality here. The fact is the public education system in this country is getting -- is devastated. Not only because of the public.
BENNETT: I agree. I agree. But do you agree that if you get a good education your opportunity of getting a good job in America is greatly enhanced?
And there are jobs in America. And we go through this --
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Partner, I don't look at this --
BENNETT: Yes.
DOBBS: I don't look at this in terms of jobs, and although what you're saying is absolutely true. I look at that education system for a silly reason. I want everybody in this country to have the same shot at the American dream.
BENNETT: I do, too. DOBBS: Both spiritually and physically and materially.
BENNETT: I do, too.
DOBBS: But the reality is they're not getting it, and the Republicans know it. The Democrats know it. And these presidential candidates know it and they're ignoring it, Bill.
BENNETT: They're not ignoring it.
DOBBS: Oh, Bill.
BENNETT: That's why they're responding in Michigan. That's why they're responding to Romney. How can you say that? I had a hundred calls today.
DOBBS: Right.
BENNETT: The people from Michigan are saying they're responding to this message.
DOBBS: Let me tell you how I can say it. Let me tell you how I can it. The disaster that is no child left behind is a by partisan program brought to you by George W. Bush, Senator Ted Kennedy. And it is a disaster, you know it.
BENNETT: I don't think it is a disaster, Lou.
DOBBS: We don't have time for a disaster. We don't have time for a 10-year program. These young people need an emergency response now from this government.
BENNETT: Do I get a response?
DOBBS: Go.
BENNETT: I don't think it is a disaster. I think there are a lot of things wrong with it. It needs fixing, but to tie educational results to funding is absolutely right. That basic principle that established accountability for results, you don't get the money if you don't produce results is right. That thing needs a ton of overhaul. It's absolutely right. But we have been putting billions and trillions of dollars into this educational system with no accountability. That piece you're going to do on Cincinnati is going to show when you tie results to accountability and when you tie money to it --
DOBBS: But we appreciate -- we appreciate you anticipating our reporting. But the reality is this broadcast has done more reporting on public education and the prescription for resolution.
BENNETT: I know.
DOBBS: And when you say to me that the public education system in this country is about what people make, it's about what people learn. (CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: I didn't say that.
DOBBS: And the idea is that this country is about an economy instead of a nation, about consumers and workers instead of about people and citizens, you and I got a basic division of view.
BENNETT: I never said that, Lou.
DOBBS: All right.
BENNETT: It has a lot to do with how well you do in life is what you get in your education. That is just a fact of life.
DOBBS: Yes.
BENNETT: And to think otherwise is silly. But is that the only purpose of education? Of course not. That's why I wrote a two volume history of the United States because history is our worst subject.
DOBBS: Yes.
BENNETT: We can be good and good for something and know our country as well.
DOBBS: With that, I will concur.
BENNETT: OK.
DOBBS: I'll let you take two deep breaths and then I'll come back, I'll beat you about the head. Bill Bennett, thank you very much. Donna Brazile, Bill Schneider, thanks you. We'll hear more from our political panel, believe or not. We'll have more results from the Michigan primary.
More than two percent of those votes are in now. We'll have the very latest for you. Next, Wolf Blitzer. And an incredible success story as Bill Bennett suggested. Tonight, we're talking about schools that prove they can make a huge difference. That we don't have to accept failure and a public education system that right now is not graduating just about half of the black students in high school in this country, about half of the Hispanics students. That's not a record any of us should be proud of. We'll have that special report, and we'll show you what schools can do with the proper leadership. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As I've maintained, education is the great equalizer in this society. But as we've reported here, education is not working as it should. Tonight, we have some good news for you.
An Ohio school system succeeding where others have failed. In less than a decade, the graduation rate in that school system has climbed from roughly 50 percent to more than 75 percent. Kitty Pilgrim reports now on how this school system has made an amazing turnaround.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cincinnati public school system had a 51 percent graduation rate in the year 2000. Seven years later, the graduation rate had climbed to 79 percent.
ROSA BLACKWELL, CINCINNATI PUBLIC SCHOOLS SUPT.: Within the schoolhouse, we do control the conditions, and that given the right environment, that our young people who are very competent and capable can and will achieve.
PILGRIM: In 2000, Cincinnati began radically changing the school environment. Large, underperforming schools were broken up into smaller schools. A database was created to track student performance. Teachers were provided ongoing training and education.
BLACKWELL: You must have highly qualified teachers in order to have highly successful students.
PILGRIM: Now, 11 of Cincinnati's 14 high schools exceed the district's 79 percent graduation rate. Six years ago, Withrow University High School was one of the poorest performing schools in the district. And today --
SHARON JOHNSON, PRINCIPAL, WITHROW UNIV. H.S.: The graduation currently here at this school is 95.8 percent. What made a difference that this school started with having high expectations coming in the door.
PILGRIM: Sharon Johnson became the principal at Withrow High School in August 2002. She separated classes by gender, required students to wear uniforms, hired teachers that share her vision of excellence and provide tutoring and assistance for families in need.
JOHNSON: We want to prove to the nation that even though you're from different backgrounds, whether socioeconomic, whether middle class, a child can be taught to be smart.
JOE NATHAN, UNIV. OF MINNESOTA: The real lesson of Cincinnati is not, here is a brilliant teacher or even here is a brilliant principal. The real lesson of Cincinnati is that here's how a whole system was able to transform itself.
BLACKWELL: We know that we can get many more of our young people in a position where they are able to graduate. And until that happens, we have a lot of work to do.
PILGRIM: The money to restructure the schools was not done through tax increase, but through allocation of district resources along with grant funding from charity. Kitty Pilgrim, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBB: I'm joined again by Donna Brazile and Bill Bennett, also as I mentioned, the former secretary of education. Senior political analyst, Bill Schneider.
Let me, first of all, I want to apologize to you, Bill and to Donna. Mr. Bennett and I got into a little bit of an exchange and unfairly took some of your time. Donna, I'm going to turn to you. Your reaction to what you just saw there.
BRAZILE: Well, first of all, as a proud graduate of our nation's public schools, Lou, I understand why you're so passionate. Of course, I understand Bill's history as not just a historian, but also the former secretary of education. So I enjoyed the debate between the two of you. Look, there's no question that our economic success depends on us improving our public schools, putting resources there. And we must value our teachers because without quality teachers, teachers that are able to not just help students develop and learn, we're not going to be successful and making America great again.
DOBBS: Don't you love hearing Sharon Johnson, the principal of the school, say teachers have to be accountable? That when these students are in our charge, we're responsible for them as a doctor is responsible for his or her patient. I love the sound of that.
SCHNEIDER: Teachers do have to be accountable. Absolutely. But accountable to whom is the big, big question because every piece of research I've ever seen on educational achievement shows the family is at the core of it. If the family cares about education, the students will want to achieve and they'll be motivated. The teachers have to be accountable, more than anything else, to the parents, to the families. And that's where a lot of the problem is.
DOBBS: Do you believe that, Bill Bennett?
BENNETT: Yes. The family is the first teacher and all but indispensable teacher, but not absolutely indispensable. Kids can succeed in good schools, Lou, even if there's lack of parental interest. And, by the way, no one admires your commitment and interest in education more than I do, Lou. We have our disagreements, but you are one of the few people who talks about this stuff.
DOBBS: Yes.
BENNETT: Let me just say what Cincinnati did. They modeled themselves. They went out first and looked at schools that worked, school systems that worked. They modeled what their reforms on the reforms of other systems. They put in systems of accountability. They accepted competition.
When you looked at their classroom, what did you see? You saw those kids dressed neatly. They did boys and girls because that works better by a lot of teachers' lights, and they rewarded their good teachers, rewarded their good teachers.
DOBBS: And you know, they actually worked with the teachers union, too.
BENNETT: Yes, they did. DOBBS: End the nonsense and actually put the kids in focus. So anyway, we just want to compliment Cincinnati and those wonderful teachers and those wonderful kids. A model for all of us. And we thank you very much, Donna, for being with us. Bill, thank you very much.
BENNETT: Thank you.
DOBBS: And you're very gracious and I reciprocate your respect.
BENNETT: OK. Round two sometime, huh?
BRAZILE: I'll referee.
DOBBS: It's unavoidable, and absolutely a certainty. Bill Schneider as always, my friend, thank you.
Coming up next, the very latest results from Michigan. Romney is in the lead. McCain is closing the gap, and Clinton is ahead of uncommitted. Wolf Blitzer and our entire election team will have some results for us here coming up shortly. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Six percent of the Michigan vote is now in. We can tell you Mitt Romney is leading at this early point.
(AUDIO GLITCH)
From the Election Center, Wolf live.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Lou. Let's take a close look at where this contest stands right now. Still, only a small percentage of the precincts, as you say, have reported. In seven minutes, all the precincts will be closed in the Republican contest, so far, with six percent of the precincts reporting Romney ahead with 37 percent to McCain 31 percent. Huckabee at 16 percent. Ron Paul at six percent.
If you take a look at the hard numbers on the Republican side right now, you can see a small number, 24,000, almost 25,000 for Romney, 20,500 for McCain, Huckabee at 10,000. Everybody else way less. But only six percent so far.
By the way, you can always go to CNN politics.com and you can see a running tally, city by city, county by county as the vote is coming in. The Democratic side is a beauty contest, has no real significance. Hillary Clinton at 62 percent uncommitted because her name among the frontrunners is the only name on the ballot. No one was really campaigning there. Thirty-two percent, seven percent of the Democrats are there.
Larry King is going to have a full hour of live coverage coming up at the top of the hour. Larry, give us a little preview of what you've got going. LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": We're going to be all over the map, Wolf and Lou. We're going to give you guests right here. We'll be checking in with candidates in South Carolina and in Michigan as well. We'll stay right atop the scene. Michigan, as Wolf has explained to me, is historically slow in reporting. So we may not have really good solid results for you until after midnight.
So in that regard, they'll be two editions of "LARRY KING LIVE," one coming up in five and a half minutes and then another one at midnight. And for the remaining moments of his extravaganza tonight, back to Lou.
DOBBS: Thanks you very much, Larry. Looking forward to that, looking forward to Wolf and those results. And in just a moment, I'll be talking with Roland Martin who's got a couple of things to say about education and a fellow by the name of Bill Bennett.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Just a couple.
DOBBS: We'll have the results of the Michigan primary, and I'll have a few thoughts on the recent argument over race between Senators Obama and Clinton. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: After Bill Bennett's comments, I've got to give my colleague Roland Martin a little equal time.
MARTIN: Well, to correct Bill, my problem is our manufacturing jobs are leaving. We told him retrain computer jobs. Now, those jobs are leaving. What is going to be left? That is the fundamental issue and so, I never say look down on America. The problem is, what jobs are we retraining? No. Take the jobs back.
DOBBS: Roland Martin, thank you, sir.
MARTIN: I did it in 18 seconds, Lou.
DOBBS: You are my hero. The ugly race-based, gender-based spectacle that we've seen Senators Clinton and Obama create shall serve as a reminder to all of us. The group and identity politics have outlived their effectiveness, their usefulness and the pandering to socio-ethnocentric groups and special interest, whether as large as corporate America or as small as a construction company and a congressman's district, has no rightful or proper place in 21st century American politics.
The Democratic and Republican candidates for president have done hardly better than President Bush and a Democratically led Congress on the issue of the war in Iraq. The candidates trip over one another now to bring more of our troops home faster than the other candidates or refuse to withdraw our troops from Iraq until the job is done without defining the job.
Policy choice is not dissimilar, by the way, to the simplistic White House false choices in either staying the course or cutting and running. Both parties and nearly all of their candidates continue to drive false choices. For the illegal immigration debate as well, the centrists and appropriate policy there to that crisis is to simply secure our borders and ports and enforce current immigration laws.
And now that our economy has become the number one issue for primary voters of both parties, we can expect these candidates in both parties to come up with new economic programs that will solve every problem in our society. These candidates won't have addressed the causes of our economic malaise, I assure you. The critical issue of our faith-based free trade policies of the past decade that have devastated our working men and women and their families, policies that have enlarged our trade debt to more than $6 trillion.
In a while, the presidential candidates of both political parties talk about public education in terms of globalism and American competitiveness. They fail to recognize the crisis in our public schools, and they fail to prescribe urgently needed solutions. Their partisan nonsense and predictable platitudes in this presidential campaign simply don't auger well for this nation for us.
I fear none of the candidates of either party is capable of extricating us from this mess that their partisan politics have created. That will ultimately be up to you and me. CNN's election coverage continues now with Larry King.
KING: Thank you, Lou. We're at Election Central here in New York covering it from tip to toe. We've got an outstanding group of panelists and analysts and pundits. But first, we, of course, go to Wolf Blitzer, our man on the scene for the latest in the results from the Michigan primary -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Larry. Let's take a look and see what we know right now. These are votes that have actually come in.
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