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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit
Aired February 09, 2008 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Millions of Americans, independents, Democrats, Republicans, demanding that the presidential candidates now take notice of the critical issues that are facing this country.
Independent voters, in fact, are leading the fight to hold those candidates accountable. Our economy is the most important issue for voters, as our middle class is struggling. The mortgage crisis is spreading from inner cities to once-affluent suburbs. In the city of Cleveland, there were 8,000 foreclosures last year, 15,000 in the county that includes Cleveland.
The crisis in our public schools is worsening. The system has failed an entire generation of students. And, according to the government's figures, only 60 percent of black students, only 64 percent of Hispanic students are now graduating from high schools across the country. That compares with a graduation rate of 80 percent for white students.
Meanwhile, our illegal immigration and border security crisis worsens. More state and local governments, however, are beginning to take action. Because the federal government is the failing to address the crisis, state lawmakers have introduced now more than 1,500 pieces of legislation to deal with the impact of illegal immigration in all 50 state legislatures.
Also, this nation's roads, bridges, tunnels and dams literally falling apart. And, yes, the Bush administration's new budget offers no additional spending. One estimate say that repairs could cost as much as $1.6 trillion, three times the cost of the war in Iraq so far. Democratic, Republican, independent leaders now all demanding action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ED RENDELL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: This coalition is going to demand that the presidential nominees tell us what their position on infrastructure is, talk to us about what their goals and dreams are for building a better American infrastructure.
GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I mean, you have an independent here. You have a Democrat here, a Republican. How much better can it get? We are soul mates. We totally believe that we must rebuild America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger there.
We will have much more on all of those issues in this broadcast.
One of the country's leading authorities on the role of independent voters, Doug Schoen, will be here, who says our two-party system is beginning to fall apart.
But, first, let me introduce three of the finest political analysts anywhere in the country, Errol Louis, columnist "New York Daily News," CNN contributor, member of the "Daily News" editorial board, Mark Halperin, senior political analyst "TIME" magazine, co- author of "The Way To Win: Taking the White House in 2008," and Reverend Jesse Jackson, founder, president of Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, leading supporter of Barack Obama and himself a candidate for his party's nomination for president.
Good to have you all with us.
Let me turn to you first, if I may, Errol.
This, the withdrawal of Mitt Romney, is it over now in the Republican Party?
ERROL LOUIS, "THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Oh, no, I don't think so. If you stayed to watch, after he left, the response at the Conservative Political Action Conference, that John McCain, the new front-runner, got, including some boos, let you know that the conservative base of the party, that had staked much of its hope in Mitt Romney, is not at all satisfied with the turn of events.
And I'm not just talking about the -- sort of the radio conservatives, the Rush Limbaughs and the Ann Coulters, who have been trying to sort of stampede the Republican Party in their direction. You're also talking about serious movement conservatives who feel as if their voice has not been heard. The voters have just kind of walked in a different direction.
DOBBS: And, Mark, the outcome, is it assured, in your judgment, in the Republican Party, or do you agree with Errol?
MARK HALPERIN, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST, "TIME": I sort of disagree with Errol. It's a mathematical certainty that John McCain will be the nominee.
I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Huckabee stays in the race and maybe even beats him in one or two of these primaries. But very few are winner take all. McCain is on a march to the nomination. And he now has a lot of luxuries that the other -- the Democratic candidates don't have. I agree he has got a problem with some people, but I think he will be able to fix those.
DOBBS: And the Democratic nomination up for grabs? HALPERIN: As up for grabs as it could be, at point, I think more likely to go at least until Pennsylvania and maybe to the convention than it is for one of these two to break through.
DOBBS: Jesse, let me ask you, are you shocked that we're sitting here, after Super Tuesday, and we have a race that couldn't be any tighter for the Democratic presidential nomination?
REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, FOUNDER, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: Well, I guess I am astonished.
Super Tuesday was designed to be an end of all. It is obviously going to go far beyond that. You have two candidates who share similar points of view, who have similar amounts of money, 100-plus million dollars, and now there will be a showdown.
Their great challenge, it seems to me, is to distinguish themselves without having differences that tear them apart, because this really is the playoff. The Super Bowl is in November, and they must not run the danger of becoming so antagonistic in their competition, that they cannot reconcile in Denver.
DOBBS: Errol, do you think that's a possibility?
LOUIS: Yes, I think there's a real problem here or something new. Let's put it that way. Normally, in these contests, you see both parties starting out with their -- satisfying their base, kind of off at the extremes and then gradually tacking back into the middle.
This is in some ways is almost the reverse, where you see the front-runners, or at least some of the most dynamic candidates, McCain for the Republicans, and Obama for the Democrats, specifically trying to cross party lines, specifically trying to stake out a centrist, moderate kind of position, and they are doing quite well with it.
And now, as we heard when Romney was sort of throwing in the towel today, and as we have started to hear on the Democratic side, some off in the wings, the left wing of the Democratic Party, the right wing of the GOP, they're not that happy with this turn of events.
DOBBS: Well, if the left wing of the Democratic Party and the right wing of the Republican Party isn't happy, what in the world has happened to the primary system? They inhabit this. They own it. What in the world is happening?
HALPERIN: These are three candidates who know the way to win, and they know that independents are important.
All of them throughout their career, Senator Clinton less than she's credit for, the other two almost defining their public life and their rhetoric, have always focused on the notion of the middle, of trying to be unifying figures.
DOBBS: Issues like illegal immigration, public education, free trade -- did I say public education again, which is a real crisis in this country?
Jesse, I mean, I don't see anything coming from these candidates that constitutes a real original idea or a program. It is as if each of these candidates, in both the Republican and the Democratic parties are fighting like the dickens to avoid revealing their position, let alone an idea, their position on these critical issues.
J. JACKSON: We do not have the kind of broad-based Roosevelt New Deal, for example.
There's been a lot of focus on ending the war in Iraq, where we have invested billions of dollars, but no end in sight. We have lost money and lives and honor. And next to it, of course, is Afghanistan, and Pakistan. They have spent a lot of time on that.
I would think that the turning point ought to be, Mr. Bush has a stimulus package that's kind of some Wal-Mart gift certificates, made in China products of Wal-Mart, as opposed to Roosevelt, bottom up. We have bridges collapsing in Minnesota, levees collapsing in New Orleans. Why not have a stimulus to invest in infrastructure, roads and bridges and levees?
DOBBS: You mean actually put money into the United States, instead of the economies of, say, Vietnam, China, Indonesia, Germany?
J. JACKSON: Absolutely. It's a way of putting people back to work.
DOBBS: You are being radical here, Jesse. You can't do that.
J. JACKSON: It seem to me it would be so sensible and so centrist.
After all, when you have the need to rebuild roads and bridges and sewers and railway and port security, it seems to me, it's not -- it's investing money where you will get good returns, like put America back to work.
DOBBS: OK, Jesse, let me ask you a question. Why in the world -- you're supporting Barack Obama. Why isn't he talking like that. That isn't his stimulus package. Why in the world isn't Senator Clinton talking like that?
John McCain, who says he doesn't know anything about economics, isn't talking like that. Where are -- these are people are going to -- one of them, ostensibly, is going to be our leader come November.
LOUIS: Well, let's remember, Mike Huckabee is still in the hunt. And he's the one who has said let's rebuild I-95 from Boston to Miami and use that as the stimulus package. It struck me as a pretty good idea.
I was a little surprised it didn't get more traction.
DOBBS: I said...
(CROSSTALK)
J. JACKSON: Really, I think that you Barack and Hillary have talked in some modest terms about reinvesting in infrastructure.
I think if you could get somebody like (INAUDIBLE) who helped to restructure New York when it had its crisis, and look at the real possibility of putting America back to work. I don't like the idea of dropping some Wal-Mart gift certificates, $300, $500. Can they help you when you have lost your house; you can't pay your tuition for your child in school? We need to reinvest in our infrastructure and put America back to work.
DOBBS: Well, Jesse, you obviously just don't understand the nuances and the very difficult details of the Hope Now program in which you can get help from our government if you don't actually need it.
We will be right back with Jesse Jackson, Errol Louis, and Mark Halperin in just a moment.
And our bridges, roads and tunnels are falling apart. We will have a special report for you here tonight on those shaky foundations and what for this nation and what your government isn't doing about it.
Working men and women, their families still struggling to survive this mortgage crisis, one that is threatening the survival of our middle class.
We will have that story, and much more, and my distinguished panel will have a few thoughts for our surviving presidential candidates to consider.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This nation is facing what many call a crisis in our credit markets, a credit crisis, a mortgage meltdown, a foreclosure crisis. It's a crisis of a quality of life and a crisis in the American dream as well, and, first and foremost, in the minds, unfortunately, of millions of our fellow Americans.
It is a blight that's touching nearly every community in this nation. Cleveland, among many, has the distinction of being rated by the Census Bureau as one of the poorest large cities in this country. Yet, mortgage lenders there wrote thousands of subprime mortgages. Now the city is trying to fight back, suing those lenders over mortgages that should never, ever have been granted, simply criminal behavior.
Christine Romans has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANTHONY BRANCATELLI, CLEVELAND CITY COUNCILMAN: It's too cold for the rodents.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): City Councilman Anthony Brancatelli walking through the wreckage of another Cleveland subprime mortgage.
BRANCATELLI: We ended up with a house that gets abandoned, foreclosed, and then stripped. And now we all have left is a wrecking ball.
ROMANS: The city has spent $6 million tearing down foreclosed homes, homes abandoned and stripped of everything of value.
Cleveland Mayor Frank J. JACKSON:
FRANK JACKSON, MAYOR OF CLEVELAND: Just imagine having 50 foreclosures 45 years ago and having almost 8,000 now. So, you can see the magnitude of it, the intensity of it.
ROMANS: The city is suing 21 banks and financial firms for negligence over what it says was the way Wall Street bundled and packaged and resold these risky mortgages. Cleveland wants to recoup millions of dollars in lost revenue, the cost of extra police to combat vandals, and demolition costs.
Many of the 21 banks have not commented on the case. Citigroup will -- quote -- "contest the suit vigorously." J.P. Morgan says it shares the city's concerns over foreclosures and will work with borrowers when appropriate to keep them in their homes.
But there's an overwhelming sense of anger here.
F. JACKSON: First of all, we were done wrong.
ROMANS: City officials say Cleveland was never a suitable place for mortgage lenders peddling high-interest loans to people with poor credit. The Census Bureau calls Cleveland is one of America's poorest big cities. The jobless rate of 6.1 percent is higher than the national average.
County Treasurer Jim Rokakis says he's been warning about lending abuses since 2000, and questioning mortgage lenders' motives.
JIM ROKAKIS, CUYAHOGA COUNTY TREASURER: If you knew the economy was weak here, why did you continue to pump mortgage dollars into this economy? Why did you continue to make loans in areas that already had shown really high foreclosure rates? Still waiting for the answer.
ROMANS: He places the blame squarely on an aggressive Wall Street and lax regulators.
ROKAKIS: A bunch of poor folks in America didn't cause a multi- trillion-dollar crisis. Trust me. That's not who caused this crisis.
ROMANS: A crisis that is spreading, each of these red dots another foreclosed house, spreading now well beyond Cleveland's urban center, beyond subprime to adjustable rate prime loans and into the suburbs. Mayor Jackson's advice?
F. JACKSON: Prepare. You have to be ready.
ROMANS: Christine Romans, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Another Jackson has been paying careful, close attention to this subprime mortgage crisis, holding a conference a few weeks ago here in New York City.
Jesse Jackson, what we are watching is -- I truly believe it is criminal. I think we're all appalled, and our hearts go out to people who have been absolutely defrauded.
J. JACKSON: Well, banks and brokers made money exploiting people. For example, we contested banks not lending money, called it red-lining. They did reverse red-lining.
Within those zones, half of the people who got subprime loans were eligible for prime loans. That's why state attorney generals must sue and find records. That's what they found about Countrywide in Chicago, for example. Cities are right to begin to sue for recovery of their losses.
The federal government cannot stand idly by and not have some plan to restructure loans and not repossess homes, since you're talking about seven million homes in subprime.
DOBBS: Why is it that, in 2008, people haven't got the guts in elected office, in this government, and these political candidates, frankly, to say, these financial -- I love the gentleman who said, we were done wrong.
This nation's been done wrong by a financial industry and financial markets that have been left unregulated, literally, for dozens of years in this country.
J. JACKSON: Well, they were -- that was allowed to happen by the government. Maybe it was the influence of bankers on our government. But this whole mortgage meltdown has driven the recession.
I don't understand why the president can speak of a bailout with some, these gift certificates, tax gift certificates, and ignore what's driving the recession, which is foreclosed homes and auctions and evictions, and diminishing the tax bases of our cities.
DOBBS: Right.
Mark?
HALPERIN: Well, look, you have got three people, one of whom is going to be the next president.
I think the one who finds his or her voice on these issues will be the next president. I think they all roughly have an equal chance. They all strengths to it. None of them have, as we said before, specific ideas on these issues that they're really breaking through it.
DOBBS: Right.
HALPERIN: And none of them are showing the passion that, say, a Lou Dobbs does about how important it is to emphasize these issues.
DOBBS: Well, perhaps they feel they can't afford to show how much they care about something, but, if that's the case, it's a damn sorry state in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
J. JACKSON: ... point is significant, it seems to me, is that, if you win the top 10 states with the most foreclosures, if you win those 10 states, you're within 60 votes of Electoral College. So, it makes political sense and economic sense to have some restructuring plan to restructure loans and not repossess homes. If we can do it for Europe, we can do it for ourselves.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: And I think you are right, but I think Mark is right, too.
If we have reached a point in 2008 where a presidential candidate doesn't have the guts to reveal their policies, to reveal how much they care about it and what they should be caring about, the people they are going to be leading, for crying out loud, we're in a lot of trouble here.
LOUIS: I think we are in a lot of trouble.
You know, what you are hearing from the candidates are these sort of, let's freeze the interest rates, let's kind of stop things right where they are, and figure it out somewhere down the road, conveniently after the election...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Senator Clinton was the first to come out with that, and I think she was right to at least advance an idea. At least she had an idea. Is it the complete or the correct idea? I don't know.
LOUIS: Well, I think part of the -- coming right out the gate, just to talk about this, you have to bring it out some of the terms that you're talking about: Who was responsible for this?
In case after case, in New York in particular, when attorneys general tried to figure out what was going on, they were specifically -- banks were specifically told by the Bush White House not to cooperate, to take it as a federal issue, to deny the states any kind of jurisdiction, so that they couldn't find out what was going on.
That's got to be reversed or we could go through this again four or five years from now.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: No one believes more in free enterprise and democracy than I do, in free enterprise democracy and capitalism.
But if this country does not awaken to the fact we cannot permit unfettered capitalism, crisis will be a mild word for what the consequences will be.
We're going to be back with our distinguished panel. They are going to be with us throughout this broadcast.
Coming up next, lawmakers in Virginia, well, they are fed up with waiting for Washington to act. They are fighting back against the impact of illegal immigration. We will have that report.
America failing an entire generation of students in our public schools. Tonight, we take a look at an experimental program that measures not student performance, but teacher performance. And we will try to fathom why, despite its promise, this program is being criticized and facing stiff opposition. We're going to try to change some of that here tonight.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In Virginia tonight, there are dozens of new bills before the state legislature designed to combat the impact of illegal immigration. Those bills range from enforcement employer verification laws to prohibiting illegal aliens from receiving instate college tuition.
Louise Schiavone has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tired of waiting for Washington to act, Virginia lawmakers are taking on illegal immigration themselves with dozens of measures awaiting consideration as the state's general assembly convenes.
CHRISTOPHER PEACE, VIRGINIA GENERAL ASSEMBLY: There is a general distrust of government. I think that there's sort of people tired of the apathy in Washington and the lack of desire to enforce our laws, to enforce the border.
SCHIAVONE: Delegate Christopher Peace's bill would deny illegal aliens admission to state colleges and universities. Other measures involve verifying workers' immigration status, English as the state's official language, inspections of residences for overcrowding, requirements that schools and law enforcement identify place of birth, and many other proposals targeting crime involving illegal immigrants.
DAN STEIN, PRESIDENT, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Unless we get some serious federal leadership to solve this problem -- and I don't mean amnesty -- I'm talking really solve the problem -- with serious, meaningful proposals, we are going to continue to see this political earthquake all across the country.
SCHIAVONE: In his state of the commonwealth address, Governor Tim Kaine told Virginia legislators the state must consider the consequences of illegal immigration. But he went on to say -- quote -- "We cannot afford to let supercharged political rhetoric unfairly paint a picture of Virginians as a people who are hostile to new Americans" -- end quote.
Governor Kaine declined our invitation for an interview, but his spokesman told CNN -- quote -- "The governor will consider measures as they come to his desk."
TODD GILBERT, VIRGINIA GENERAL ASSEMBLY: Frankly, I'm offended any time somebody tries to paint this as a hostility toward immigrants. We are a nation of laws.
SCHIAVONE: Delegate Todd Gilbert's bill would deny bill for an illegal alien charged with a felony.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, these Virginians say they are listening to constituent, who say that illegal immigration has diminished their quality of life, even as Congress continues to stumble over this issue -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Louise Schiavone, from Washington.
Well, as we reported, Virginia is far from alone. In fact, all 50 state legislatures introduced legislation on the critical issue of the impact of illegal immigration last year. More than 1,500 bills were introduced. More than 240 of those bills became law in 46 states. They covered almost every policy area, from housing and employment, to driver's licenses.
And you might ask yourself, when was the last time I read that report about that level of activity at the state level in one of our national newspapers or mainstream media outlets?
Coming up next: The nation's infrastructure is literally crumbling. Can partisan politics be put aside to fix this critical crisis? We will have a special report for you and some answers.
And I will be talking with an author who says that an independent candidate may be the best way to get all the candidates to focus on the critical issues that face us.
And with dismal graduation rates for minority students in this country, some states now want to hold teachers accountable. They are having a tough time of it, however. We will have the report, and a great deal more.
Stay with us. We will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This nation's crumbling infrastructure is a critical issue of national importance. It is an issue that you may have noticed that's been ignored by both the Bush administration, this Democratically-led president (sic), and our presidential candidates in both parties.
Now a coalition of well-known political leaders beginning to stand together to demand that these candidates make infrastructure a priority in their discussions of our national priorities.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Clogged roads in California, water shortages throughout the West, electricity bottlenecks in the Northeast, bridges from coast to coast, all in desperate need of repair.
The United States should invest $1.6 trillion to fix its crumbling infrastructure, according to the American Society of Civil Engineers, or about three times what we spent on the Iraq war.
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), NEW YORK: We have an infrastructure crisis. A non-stop television showed us in New Orleans when the levees broke and Minneapolis when the bridge collapsed. But the governors and the mayors of this country, every day see it an operational level, bridges that are rusting away and tracks that can't carry high speed trains and power transmission lines that can't keep up with demand and airports that need new runways and water lines that need backup systems and sewage plants that leak into the rivers and the oceans. If we continue to ignore these problems, we are going to suffer more collapses, more human tragedies, and more economic pain.
WIAN: The mayor of New York and the governors of California and Pennsylvania are forming a coalition to pressure presidential candidates to make infrastructure a national priority.
GOV. EDWARD RENDELL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: This coalition is going to demand that the presidential nominees tell us what their position on infrastructure is, talk to us about what their goals and dreams are, for building a better American infrastructure.
GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I mean, you have an independent here, you have a Democrat here, a Republican, I mean, how much better can it get? I am just so amazed. We totally believe that we must rebuild America.
WIAN: The coalition commissioned a poll that found voters, by a margin of more than two to one, are willing to fund infrastructure projects. They also argued that investments in infrastructure are a much more effective economic stimulus than one-time rebate checks.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WIAN: The last available numbers from 2004 show the United States spending about 2.5 percent of our Gross Domestic Product on infrastructure. China, by comparison, spends about nine percent -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: It is remarkable. This broadcast we have been reporting on our shaking foundations in this country, literally for years and years now. This is not a new development. But it is, I think to the credit of Governors Schwarzenegger and Rendell and Mayor Bloomberg, that they are taking the effort to drive this, and they certainly have our full support and commendation for doing so. Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
My next guest says this election will be decided by not Latino voters, evangelical voters -- independent voters, who comprise somewhere between 35 percent and 45 percent of the electorate now. My guest says independent voters are fed up with "partisanship and the extremist wings of either party." Doug Schoen is the author of "Declaring Independence: The Beginning of the End of the Two-Party System." Is that music I hear playing in the background? Good to have you with us.
DOUGLAS SCHOEN, AUTHOR, "DECLARING INDEPENDENCE": Thanks for having me, Lou.
DOBBS: We have -- first, your thoughts on what has been produced with Mitt Romney stepping out of the campaign. What are we looking at now in terms of presidential politics?
SCHOEN: Lou, I think we still have a divided Republican Party. Mitt Romney has made it clear he's not ready to gently accede to John McCain. Mike Huckabee is fighting on. The conservatives are restive. The Democrats are going to keep fighting for at least a few more months. So we have an electorate that's angry, parties that are divided, and no clear solutions as you suggested before to the problems we're facing.
DOBBS: Well, the reality is that, and this is, again, a reality that not many people are picking up on, is independents. People are registering as independents in this country at a faster rate than either as Democrats or Republicans. Democrats comprise a huge, huge element of the electorate.
SCHOEN: That's really the point in my book "Declaring Independence." I'm saying the two-party system is beginning to end, because fundamentally, people have had it with the major parties. I mean, yes, they participate and vote if that's the only game in town. But they are really looking for centrist alternatives.
DOBBS: Right.
SCHOEN: That's why they're independents.
DOBBS: Now, we just showed one man whose name is put forward as an independent candidate, Mayor Bloomberg. Why in the world are we not producing people who will step forward from some quarter of our society as independents, and take on these parties? These two parties and their candidates are the reason we're in the mess we're in.
SCHOEN: Because it's really tough to do it. You have to get on the ballot. In 50 states, you have to raise the money. You have to build an organization. The people are ready for it, Lou. You're right. Forty percent of the American electorate thereabouts will consider and vote for an independent if circumstances are right. But the major parties have conspired to make it much more difficult to happen than it should be.
DOBBS: The issues. How is it that the American people have not awakened to the reality that in 2004, we were looking at a John F. Kerry and a George W. Bush, both graduates of Yale Law School -- both Yale College, both graduates of skull and bones, if you graduate in skull and bones, and both sons of privileged families. I mean, this is hardly the diversity that one would expect.
SCHOEN: It's not only the diversity or lack of diversity that one would want. There is no clear common sense solutions. Everybody is pigeonholed into Republican or Democratic solutions. There is no common sense approach. That really is another serious issue.
DOBBS: What are we going to do? What will be the result of 2008? What will be the impact of this year on this country's future?
SCHOEN: Well, I think we run the risk, Lou, of having a further divided country. To be sure, the power of the independents is reflected in the fact that when Barack Obama talks in generalities about coalitions and bridging the gap, and John McCain does the same, they get a very, very good response from independents. And I think what's going to happen after this election is, there is going to literally be a demand from the electorate for solutions, not rhetoric.
DOBBS: Well, that would be nice. It would be nice as a beginning point to hear any of these candidates, Republican, Democratic, or perhaps independent, actually say something about what they are going to do, be able to fund it, be able to articulate it and mean it. We would give them extra points for that, wouldn't we, Doug?
SCHOEN: We absolutely would. And the reason I think an independent candidate is so important, Lou, is they will force a Democratic standard bearer and a Republican standard bearer to confront the issues in common sense practical terms.
DOBBS: Doug Schoen, thank you very much.
SCHOEN: Thank you.
DOBBS: The book is "Declaring Independence." That does sound nice. "Declaring Independence."
SCHOEN: Thanks very much.
DOBBS: Up next here, a controversial new plan to bring better qualified teachers to our classrooms. We'll have a special report, and I'll be talking with one of the country's leading authorities on education in this country, Professor Pedro Noguera, and our panel, Jesse Jackson, Errol Louis and Mark Halperin of "Time" magazine. They'll be back with us as well. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New York City, one of the country's largest public school systems is experimenting with a new way to determine whether students are actually learning, and whether or not teachers are really teaching. The system is already being used in Tennessee to rate the effectiveness of teachers there. But as Kitty Pilgrim reports, this program faces now stiff opposition as it comes to New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The nation's public education system is in danger of failing an entire generation of students. The U.S. Department of Education estimates that in 2005, the latest available numbers, just 60 percent of black students graduated from high school, 64 percent of Hispanic students, and 80 percent of white students. Some critics of the schools contend, one reason might be that some teachers are ineffective.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to do everything we possibly can to attract and retain really great teachers. And if there's a teacher who isn't in the right line of work, it's better for that teacher and more important it's better for our kids to make sure that that teacher either improves or doesn't stay in the classroom.
PILGRIM: Across the nation, educators are scrambling to figure out ways to evaluate and improve teacher quality and effectiveness, and to get more great teachers into the room. Tennessee started using a system called Tennessee Value Added Assessment System in 1992. It was designed by William Sanders, a senior research fellow at the University of North Carolina, and measures the effectiveness of teachers based on their students' performance.
WILLIAM SANDERS, VALE ADDED RESEARCH AND ASSESSMENT: Differences in teaching effectiveness is the single largest factor affecting the academic growth rates of populations of students. It's not race. It's not poverty. It's not educational attainment of parents. It's not household income. It's the effectiveness of the individual classroom teacher.
PILGRIM: The principal at Brighton High School in Tipton County, Tennessee, outside Memphis, likes the system.
GRANT SHIPLEY, PRINCIPAL, BRIGHTON HIGH SCHOOL: One thing Value Added did for me is an immense stride (ph). It helped me see that some of the teachers I didn't realize was as good as they are. It helped me see that we've got some great teachers that are moving students.
PILGRIM: New York City is experimenting with the system similar to Tennessee's, but its use is very contentious between the teachers' union and the schools. RANDI WEINGARTEN, PRES., UNITED FED. OF TEACHERS: What's happened in education right now is that there's two terrible presumptions. One is that teachers don't work hard enough. And two is, that we can just adopt a business model and have a niche market and all of a sudden, the market will tell us how good or bad teachers are, or kids are. It just doesn't work in education.
PILGRIM: CNN contacted New York City school officials, but they would not talk about the experiment. But the school's deputy chancellor overseeing it told "The New York Times," "If the only thing we do is make this data available to every person in the city, every teacher, every parent, every principal, and say, do with it what you will, that will have been a powerful step forward."
It is broadly accepted that there are many variables, including parental involvement and class size that impact a child's success. It would be fair to say a lot of people would agree that the Value Added System should not be the only component of testing teachers, but perhaps should be one of them. Kitty Pilgrim, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now for more on this nation's troubled schools is one of the nation's leading experts, Pedro Noguera. He is an urban sociologist. He's professor at New York University and also co- editor of the book "Unfinished Business: Closing the Education Gap in Our Schools." And, indeed, "Unfinished Business" is right. Pedro, good to have you with us.
PEDRO NOGUERA, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Good to be here, Lou.
DOBBS: Professor, let me ask you this. Do you agree with the sentiments you heard concerning the Value Added approach that's being taken to Tennessee, being brought to New York?
NOGUERA: I agree with the sentiment that there's got to be evidence that kids are learning. That's got to figure into how we evaluate schools and even teachers. I'm concerned, though, about how we implement something like this. If you have teachers who are teaching the kids who are high achievers, what's the evidence that those kids continue to learn?
DOBBS: Right.
NOGUERA: And what are the incentives to get teachers to teach the lowest achievers, for whom it's hardest to get the evidence that they're really making progress?
DOBBS: And you heard the Federation of Teachers spokeswoman. Your reaction to her thoughts?
NOGUERA: I think she's making a mistake in not weighing in on this. I think we need to make sure --
DOBBS: She's just pushing back. NOGUERA: Yes. And the public wants to know that the kids are learning. When you look at the kind of numbers we saw earlier with the dropout rate in the country...
DOBBS: Yes.
NOGUERA: ... it really just speaks to a huge national problem. And to say that we're not going to look closely what's going on in schools, I think is a mistake.
DOBBS: You agree that we need to understand the effectiveness of teachers. We need -- you also call for a serious effort to reduce the size of classrooms,...
NOGUERA: Right.
DOBBS: ... the number students in those classrooms. And I have, by the way, heard no one argue with your call for that. Why is it this country cannot? We look out at millions of our young people, and we see these public schools which is the great equalizer for this society. Parents know we're in crisis. Teachers know it. Principals, the students understand it. Our elected officials know it, and they waive something called No Child Left Behind.
We've got teachers all over the country teaching to a test, and our teachers and our schools are failing these students. I mean, it's clear. Why can't we get concerted, urgent national action?
NOGUERA: I think that we are still playing games. The rhetoric is there, but the action doesn't follow. I mean, if the most important thing we could do is to find ways to recruit the very best people into teaching, to reward them, particularly to teach in high need areas, and to make sure they have the conditions where they can meet the needs of the kids, but we don't do that now. We put the least qualified people in the schools with the greatest needs.
DOBBS: And half of our teachers in public schools are gone after five years in the profession. That's just stunning.
NOGUERA: You can't make a difference like that. You're losing people just as they begin to get experience. You're not going to make a difference. It happened in New York City. We lose 6,000 teachers a year on New York City on average.
DOBBS: And as you listen to these presidential candidates, whether McCain or Huckabee, Obama or Clinton, are you stunned that they are not standing up on a soap box screaming their heads off?
NOGUERA: I think right now they're engaged in very broad generalities about education, because they know the public cares, but they are not talking specifics about what they'll do about these issues. And I think that's the real problem because the public is very dissatisfied with the state of public education and does understand how important it is to our future.
DOBBS: Are you hopeful? NOGUERA: Not right now. I am sometimes. I get to travel the country. I get to --
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I wanted to ask you a quick --
NOGUERA: You know, I'm not hopeful with the politics. I'm hopeful when I speak to broad audiences of educators and parents who are genuinely concerned.
DOBBS: Well, we thank you for, as always, sharing your concerns, and more importantly, your thoughts and analysis with us here on this broadcast from time to time. We're going to hope you will be joining us more frequently and more often.
NOGUERA: I'm glad you are sticking with this issue, Lou. It's really important, and I think that the public doesn't get the kind of information it needs to make informed decisions about what's going on in our schools.
DOBBS: Oh, I know that you and I and all the folks that we know will be working very hard to keep it out there.
NOGUERA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you for all you are doing.
NOGUERA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Pedro Noguera.
Coming up at the top of the hour, "LARRY KING LIVE." Mr. King is in Los Angeles. Larry, what have you got?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Mr. Dobbs, we got a triple bill for you tonight. We'll toss around the Mitt Romney shocker and what his exit from the presidential race might mean. And then, another stunner, those hidden camera tapes that may reveal once and for all what really happened to Natalee Holloway. And finally, Britney Spears, the tragic situation that seems to get worse day by day. All that on "LARRY KING LIVE" immediately following his eminence, Mr. Dobbs, at the top of the hour.
DOBBS: Thank you. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. I humbly, humbly express that appreciation.
KING: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Thanks, Larry.
Up next, Mitt Romney has dropped out. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are fighting on and fiercely. Three of the best political analysts join me, rejoin me with their perspective on those stories. The role of independent voters and why you and I should be trying to do as the countdown begins toward November of this year. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back now with our panel, "New York Daily News" columnist, Errol Louis, "Time" magazine senior political analyst, Mark Halperin, and in Washington, D.C., Jesse Jackson. Thank you all for staying with us through this broadcast, bringing your thoughts and insight.
Mark, let me turn to you. McCain seems to have it wrapped up in the minds of many I know. With the -- with the absence now of Mitt Romney, what do you think?
MARK HALPERIN, SR. POLITICAL ANALYST, TIME: Well, for months and months, we were told the Democrats were the shoo-ins to be the next president depending on who the nominee was. McCain has always had great appeal to centrists. If he can clean up his problems on the right, he now has the luxury of months potentially, where the two Democrats continue to fight, he can raise money. He can rest. He can think about a running mate, a convention and a presidency. They don't have that luxury.
DOBBS: And you really think that that is a significant and perhaps determining advantage?
HALPERIN: I think it is a big advantage. Just go to the physical thing. These candidates and their staffs are exhausted. I deal with them every day. They are dead tired. McCain now can rest. He can travel abroad. He can do anything he wants without having to worry about being attacked every minute by a rival trying to stop his career.
DOBBS: Persuasive suggestion there, Errol.
ERROL LOUIS, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well --
DOBBS: The idea of perhaps you will use some of that time to think about the ideas that haven't been expressed in this thing.
LOUIS: That would -- he does have that opportunity. I'm not sure it's necessarily going to work out spectacularly well. Because on the flip side, you see the Democrats going through state after state, and because they didn't do winner-take-all this time, they have gotten intimate detail, knowledge and organizational strength going through every congressional district in the country.
DOBBS: That's a wonderful thought.
LOUIS: And I think it's going to serve them well when it comes down to, you know, -- who's going to have the best 72-hour turnout plan in November? I think the Democrats who -- the operation that just pulled off Super Tuesday, I think they're going to have a much better shot at it.
HALPERIN: Those aren't necessarily battleground states in the general election. It's good practice, but some of them are states that the Democrats will never be back to after the primaries.
LOUIS: Well, that's true. I mean, a strong organization in Utah is not going to do much for the Democrats. Missouri is another story, though.
DOBBS: Jesse, you're laughing. At this point, we're really bereft of big ideas in this campaign from either side. Do you expect that to change?
REV. JESSE JACKSON, PRES., RAINBOW PUSH COALITION: Well, we put a lot of focus on who the horses are, and not enough focus on what's in the wagon.
DOBBS: Right.
JACKSON: Why can't we debate some plan to improve public education? We know that parents who have a job, a decent house and an investment matters. We focus on the end result. What about prenatal care, head start, day care on the front side, and the chance to go to college when it's all over?
It's a big idea to reinvest in our infrastructure. Put America back to work. A big idea. Let's not waste money. That not investment with great returns. And I'm anxious for us to get on with the rest of the campaigns, but I'm very determined that we fight for putting America back to work. I can't put it into simpler than that.
DOBBS: Yes. Now, I don't know about you guys, but when Jesse says, "Put America back to work," and I'm not a particularly wonkish fellow, but I'm also somewhat inured to these sort of calls for hope and all that. But when Jesse says, "Put America back to work," I get a little excited.
HALPERIN: Sounds like you need too.
DOBBS: Well, he -- Jesse has the tendency -- whether you like Jesse Jackson or not, he usually means it.
HALPERIN: One of the mysteries of Jesse Jackson's candidate, Barack Obama, is he's extremely passionate. He's a great orator, and yet he's not been able to get forward a sense on the economy, particularly on these big economic issues, that he's got a plan and that he's going to make it happen. That is a big challenge for him.
LOUIS: But, you know, I think what happens is, it's because of the nature of his campaign. If you've got, you know, 14,000, 20,000 people in an arena, if you -- if you can tick off a bunch of really interesting ideas about education, infrastructure and everything else. But what these candidates tend to do is what works for them, what's going to get them their votes. And so, they go to what is either focus group tested and poll tested, or what gets you a big cheer in that arena.
DOBBS: Well, I know a fellow who could give Barack Obama and anyone of these other candidates a couple of thoughts of advice. And so what we're going to do is we're going to take a quick break, and I'm going to leave it a mystery as to who that fellow might be. But we'll be talking to him in just a second as we come back here with Mark Halperin, Errol Louis and Jesse Jackson. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back now with our panel, Errol Louis, Mark Halperin, Jesse Jackson. Jesse, I was kidding. As I said we might have some thoughts of advice for the candidates, but not really. I really think that it would be helpful perhaps to all four of these folks, to hear what you've got to say on those issues.
JACKSON: Well, I'm concerned that we're over in debt to China. Never come up or giving up these tax certificates and buy some more products to Wal-Mart made in China. We've got to mail (ph) this billing out Wall Street back up. To me, that's a matter of economic security. On the other hand, Lou, jobs out, investment out, drugs and guns in. First class, just second class school. Let's have an independent idea, not just an independent party.
DOBBS: I like that. Two independents in one sentence. And I hope they're listening because I think -- if there's ever been a time here, Errol, it is now for independents of thought, independents of action, whether you're partisan or not. But I think Jesse Jackson is exactly right.
LOUIS: Well, I'll throw in a third independent. How about some independent activity from the civic groups, the think tanks, the people who care about these issues, who are at the cutting edge of innovation? There's somebody out there who's got an answer to this infrastructure problem.
It's been thought through some place. And, there are good models in our federal system. You'll find a great innovative product, a project. It's got to be found. It's got to be surfaced, and with the technology,...
DOBBS: Yes.
LOUIS: ... at our command, with YouTube and with the Internet, with all of the things that we've got, we got to find a way to surface that. It's got to get to the news organizations.
DOBBS: And I would hope that we could find somebody, man or woman, that's raised a few kids, who has worked, gone to school or not gone to school. If they've gone to school, gone to a -- you know, a state university, has lived the life, if you will, and knows what the American dream is from experience, and how precious it is, we should be turning to those people for a lot more. We need to hear their voices a lot more in this country. Mark, your thoughts.
HALPERIN: Lou, the American people, I think, want and should have is a president who's got the heart of a populous but can also be reassuring. It's hard to do both, but I think as someone might say, we need someone who will not complain but will explain how they are going to change the country in a populist way with a focus on the middle class but also again, be reassuring. And all three of these people, McCain, Clinton and Obama, have the capacity to do that. But none of them have shown they can do it completely.
DOBBS: At the risk of offending all of these candidates, I'm not really too concerned about it, because I don't have a dog in this. But Bill Clinton said, and he was the only one who said so far in this campaign, this economy of ours, this society of ours, is not sustainable with the current model. The demand for resources, the way in which we're choosing to live. These candidates have got to reach to the depths of our hearts and our aspirations in truth, and look to the future with a vision.
I want to thank each of you for being here to help us, to look toward what's happening to us, how we're proceeding and hopefully, how we can proceed from here. We thank you very much, Jesse Jackson, appreciate it. Good to have you with us. Errol Louis, thank you. Mark Halperin, thank you very much, sir.
Thank you for being with us tonight. We hope you'll join us tomorrow. For all of us here, we thank you for watching. Good night from New York. "LARRY KING LIVE" begins right now.
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