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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Senators Obama and Clinton Battle for Wisconsin and Texas; Economy: Critical Issue All Voters; Texans Rally against the TTC
Aired February 19, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you very much, Wolf.
Tonight, we're going to be taking a look at what is happening particularly in Wisconsin and preparing to move ahead to a number of important events such as making some determination as to whether or not Senator Obama or Senator Clinton will be picking up a decisive number of delegates this evening, all of that and more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Tuesday, February 19th. Live from the Election Center in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Senator Hillary Clinton tonight is hoping to break through Barack Obama's winning streak in the contest in Wisconsin tonight. Senator Clinton believes that she has a fair chance of doing so. We're taking a look now at Senator Obama though confident he is obviously in a very serious contest from both Wisconsin and Hawaii, the second Democratic contest of the evening.
Meanwhile, Senator McCain tonight he is hoping to win a convincing victory in Wisconsin. We will have extensive coverage throughout the next hour.
We begin with Jessica Yellin at the Clinton campaign headquarters in Youngstown, Ohio -- Jessica?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the campaign on both sides in this Democratic primary has taken on a sharper, more populous tone in recent days as both Clinton and Obama vie for every vote and every delegate in Wisconsin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN (voice-over): In the lead up to the Wisconsin primary, voters saw Clinton and Obama, part two, the angry sequel. Clinton unveiled her first negative ads, both campaigns sent out nasty mailings and there was that back and forth over words.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is a difference between speeches and solutions, between rhetoric and results.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She said while speeches don't put food on the table. You know what? NAFTA didn't put food on the table.
YELLIN: Here the contest took a populous turn as the candidates appealed to voters suffering economic hard times.
H. CLINTON: Because our economy is not working the way it needs to.
OBAMA: The workers are left holding the bag. Something has to change.
YELLIN: The state's demographics hold advantages for each candidate. In Clinton's favor, 55 percent of the state's Democratic voters have no college degree, half make less than $50,000 a year. There are few African-Americans, but plenty of Catholic voters.
But there is a real bright side for Obama too. Twenty-seven percent of Wisconsin's voters are Independents, a key constituency for him and they can vote in today's primary. And the state does have a history of electing iconoclasts (ph).
Both campaigns publicly set expectations low, but actually invested real time, money and surrogates here. And for Clinton in particular, a strong showing could be game-changing.
STUART ROTHENBERG, EDITOR AND PUBLISHER, "THE ROTHENBERG POLITICAL REPORT": But even if she doesn't win, if she shows pretty well, if it's a close race, she is probably going to get a little bump out of this. There will be a renewed sense that this campaign really has some stuff left, some energy left.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN: Lou, on the other hand, if she does not have a strong showing tonight it will be that much harder for Senator Clinton to build up momentum for that big win she says is essential in the next contest in Texas right here in Ohio where she is holding this rally tonight -- Lou?
DOBBS: OK, Jessica, thank you very much, Jessica Yellin.
Senators Clinton and Obama battling for every vote and every single delegate in today's contests in Wisconsin and Hawaii. The candidates virtually tied in the national polling. Ninety-four Democratic delegates are at stake tonight, 74 of them in Wisconsin, 20 in Hawaii. And 56 Republican delegates, 37 in Wisconsin, 18 -- 19 rather in the state of Washington.
The biggest remaining primary is in Texas on March 4th. One hundred and ninety-three Democratic delegates are at stake there, which means Texas could play the decisive role in the Democratic contest. Candy Crowley with the Obama campaign joins us live now from Houston.
Candy, let's talk about the Texas race in just a moment. Which Democratic candidate in your best judgment has the most to lose in today's primary contest in Wisconsin and Hawaii? CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well let me first just tell you that each campaign says the other, but as far as I'm concerned I think you have to look at this and see that Hillary Clinton probably has the most to lose precisely because of what Jessica was reporting on. When you look at the typical Wisconsin Democratic primary voter in 2004, compare it to the Democratic primary voters so far this year. The Wisconsin voters are whiter and they are more working class. That is defined as making $50,000 or less.
Those are her core voters. If she loses here and in a primary, this really is a problem for her because it shows that Barack Obama is cutting into her core. I also -- you know we have to mention the momentum again. Obviously if he comes out of tonight 10 and zero, taking Hawaii and Wisconsin, he really goes in to Texas and Ohio two weeks from today sailing high -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sailing high and just a couple of weeks ago, everybody it seemed to me at least they were saying that Senator Clinton didn't have a chance in Wisconsin. What's the deal?
CROWLEY: You know, I mean I think everybody jumped to that conclusion because Wisconsin does have this reputation for being a bit of a maverick and for electing people that are sometimes outside what you would think of as a typical main line Democrat or Republican. When you -- again you look at the demographics of Wisconsin, it really does seem that it is made for her.
It is those voters that she has done best with. Obviously he got some bounce out of Virginia and some bounce out of Maryland and Washington, D.C., which (INAUDIBLE), but you know we have seen some polls lately where she has led or he has not led by much.
DOBBS: And Texas, which way is that state looking now?
CROWLEY: Well right now it looks likes like he has wrestled her into something close to a tie. I can tell you I'm in Houston so they have already moved ahead here, Barack Obama expecting to fill this auditorium here. One of his people say look, they expect to have over 30,000 people.
I can tell you they can't fit them in here so they will be spilling out on to the streets if that's so. But the whole idea is momentum, momentum, momentum. You know come out of Wisconsin regardless and say here we are and look at what we have got, a little muscle flexing here tonight, Lou.
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much, Candy Crowley from Houston with the Obama campaign.
In the Republican contest, front-runner Senator McCain today appealing to Independent voters to support him in Wisconsin's primary. Senator McCain has a big lead over Mike Huckabee in the national battle for delegates, but Huckabee says he will remain in this race and continue his fight in states such as Ohio. Dana Bash who is with the McCain campaign reports now from Columbus, Ohio.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This last minute campaign day rally is aimed at avoiding an embarrassing finish and planting a seed in a swing state.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'll be back and we will carry the state of Wisconsin in the November election.
BASH: Speaking of November, these days John McCain's campaign schedule has been as much if not more about following the money as votes, 10 fund-raising events in 10 days all over the map. Since last Tuesday McCain has raised money in Virginia, D.C., Wisconsin, Texas and several in Ohio. This week he will be traveling for cash in Illinois, Michigan, as well as Indiana.
MCCAIN: We are going to be very aggressive and try to balance both our fund-raising as well as our campaigning. But we have got a lot of work to do.
BASH: McCain advisors say their goal is to raise tens of millions of dollars to use up through the Republican Convention in early September. That money would officially be primary money which is unlimited, but will be focused on building McCain's case and operation for the fall campaign against the Democrats.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm very proud of my country.
BASH: Training for that fight is well under way and took a surprising turn when the biggest whack of the day at Democrats came from McCain's wife, Cindy. She was asked about this Monday comment from Michelle Obama.
MICHELLE OBAMA, WIFE OF BARACK OBAMA: For the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country.
BASH: Cindy McCain said this.
CINDY MCCAIN, WIFE OF JOHN MCCAIN: I just want to make the statement that I have and always will be proud of my country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Cindy McCain usually limits her role in the campaign to humanizing her husband, talking about the kind of man that he is, so jumping into the fray like this especially about a fellow spouse is new territory for Mrs. McCain. She was asked here in Columbus just a few hours ago to elaborate or explain her comment. She declined to do so except to say once again she has always been proud to be an American and Lou, for the record, the Obama campaign in trying to clarify Michelle Obama's remarks says so is she -- Lou.
DOBBS: OK. Thank you very much, Dana Bash.
Coming up next here, much more on the presidential campaign. Bill Schneider will have the latest exit poll results for us from Wisconsin. He'll be sharing with us what voters are saying are the most important issues in this election.
Also a major setback for working men and women and their families in the country, just when none of them really needed a further setback as our struggling middle class tries to survive this, first the home mortgage crisis and the credit crisis. We'll have a special report for you.
And Texans fighting back against corporate and political elites who are trying to create a North American Union. You don't want to miss that upcoming report.
Stay with us. We are coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Polls will close in Wisconsin in just over an hour. There is there a very tight race between Senators Clinton and Obama.
Bill Schneider now joins us with a look at what the candidates will possibly learn from voters in today's primary election -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Lou, well one thing they're going to learn is they are very unhappy with the economy. Very negative assessment, take a look at Democrats. Well here it is, all -- these are Democrats.
How do they assess the nation's economy? Only 10 percent, 10 percent of Democrats, that's like nobody, says the economy is in good shape. Ninety percent, virtually unanimous say the economy is not in such good shape or poor. How do the Republicans feel? They are the party of President Bush.
They are the in-party, but they're not so hot either. Thirty- nine percent say the economy is in good shape, 61 percent, a solid majority of even Republicans say the economy is in bad shape. You're also going to find among Democrats we asked if trade loses jobs or gains jobs. And the overwhelming consensus, 70 percent of Democrats today said that on balance trade loses more jobs than it gains and this was agreed to by both Clinton voters and Obama voters.
Now, something interesting we found out in the exit poll. We asked the voters if you'd be -- if the Democratic voters, would you be satisfied if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic Party nominee. Now take a look at Obama supporters. Forty-six percent said yes, but the majority, 53 percent said no.
They would not be happy if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic Party nominee, getting a little bit of attention, a little ill will here. How about Clinton voters? Would they be happy if Obama is the nominee? Yes, they would. Fifty-seven percent of Clinton voters said fine with them, 40 percent say they would not be happy. So we are seeing a different showing up here for the first time between Clinton voters and Obama voters when they look at the rival candidate -- Lou.
DOBBS: I wonder if that isn't also, Bill Schneider, an indicator or momentum on the part of Senator Obama to see that little gap there in terms of whether or not they will be satisfied with -- the Clinton supporters would be satisfied with an Obama candidacy.
SCHNEIDER: That's exactly what momentum is all about. It means that more and more people who may not be inclined to support you believe you are probably going to be the nominee and they could live with that. Momentum means precisely that. They are not supporting you. They may not agree with you, but they are willing to accept you. We are seeing that on the part of Clinton voters' view of Obama.
DOBBS: And the breakdown on the economy looks somewhat similar to the breakdown that we've seen in previous primaries on the issue of Iraq. I am also wondering and you pointed out that the Democratic voters are not in any question at all about whether or not so-called free trade policies cost jobs. What about the Republican voters?
SCHNEIDER: Well it wasn't asked of the Republican voters.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I am going to have to talk to this (INAUDIBLE) yours, Bill. This is absolutely just -- it's unacceptable.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, well the Republican -- trade has not been a big issue of debate among Republicans. It has been among Democrats except for the fact that they all are critical of trade agreements because their supporters are overwhelmingly critical of trade agreements. We are just not seeing any differences between Democrats and Democrats on trade.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, as always thank you very much.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Well as Bill just reported, our economy is a critical issue right now for voters of both parties. The price for a barrel of crude oil today closed at more than $100 a barrel for the first time and it won't be long before that means higher cost to heat our homes and put gasoline in our cars. The current administration is I think it might be safe to say unlikely to solve this economic crisis, leaving that job to our next president. Christine Romans has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the campaign trail, candidates stressing their middle class strike. Senator Hillary Clinton.
H. CLINTON: And I know that it's tough times for a lot of people.
ROMANS: Senator Barack Obama urging a bipartisan effort.
OBAMA: To help middle class families.
H. CLINTON: And Senator John McCain.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We can't leave people behind in the heartland of America.
ROMANS: Appealing to a widespread anxiety evident in the polls and across the country where the housing crisis has ravaged neighborhoods. The mortgage on this New York house is for far more than the place is now worth. The same for many homes in this Ohio neighborhood.
Goldman Sachs estimates 30 percent of all mortgages or some 15 million households could have negative equity by the end of the year. Homeowners with their upside down mortgages, holing on if they can and paying more than the house is worth or in some cases walking away. For some strapped homeowners, it will mean foreclosure, for others hanging on declining home prices.
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: When this house is sold in foreclosure, it is sold at a depressed price, which means that when you do the comparables, everybody's house value goes down.
ROMANS: The housing recession laying there some ugly realities for American families.
DAVID MADLAND, CTR. FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: The house prices were appreciating and that was the one thing that has worked for most Americans, but that was really just a bubble. And now that we are seeing the bubble burst, we see that the economy really was hollow at its core.
ROMANS: He says the economy was not creating enough jobs and those jobs were not paying enough. And then there are rising prices for everything from energy, food, tuition and health care.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Health care a major reason a new study finds most Americans are unprepared for retirement. According to the Center for Retirement Research, 61 percent of households are at risk of not being able to maintain their living standards and pay health care costs which for many, Lou, as you know have been skyrocketing.
DOBBS: If the economy is not the top issue for all voters right now, I don't know what one could say to explain it because the risks are immense here, a recession or possibly worse. We are talking about as many as 15 million homes in this country being under water in terms of the value of the house against the amount of the mortgage loan. I mean that is -- that's scary.
ROMANS: It's remarkable. It really is remarkable and those analysts there at Goldman Sachs even point out that the amount they're under water is just unheard of in post war history.
DOBBS: And I would like to remind the viewers of this broadcast that you heard on this broadcast for a number of years that the economic policies that we have been following are absolutely bizarre, untenable, unsustainable and one hopes that the wreckage will not (INAUDIBLE) wreckage will not be the result. Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans with that sobering report. I don't think we need any more sobering reports, but there it is.
Coming up here next, a massive super highway project in Texas, it is being called a step towards a North American Union and with good reason. We will have that special report. You will either laugh or cry.
And Senator Obama using parts of another politician speech, is it plagiarism, does it matter, and to whom does it matter? We will discuss that amongst others with our panel of top political analysts. Stay with us. We're going to have more fun ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Clinton and Senator Obama will square off Thursday in a CNN/Univision sponsored debate in advance of the Texas and Ohio primaries March 4th. The debate will be at the University of Texas. Many Texans, however, are simply furious about an issue that the presidential candidates are just trying their darnedest to ignore.
It's the plan to build a massive super highway. The Trans-Texas Corridor, the NAFTA super highway, which will run from our border with Mexico across Texas and that super highway intended to go all the way up to Canada. Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's known as the TTC, the Trans-Texas Corridor, I69 or just the NAFTA super highway.
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: One, two, three, four...
TUCKER: It's highly controversial. The proposed route from Laredo, Texas to Texarkana, Texas would be a four-thousand mile network of new toll roads with truck and car lanes, rail lines, pipeline and utility zones, its projected cost, $183 billion over 50 years. The purpose of the Trans-Texas Corridor would be to speed up the movement of goods from Mexico to propose inland ports in America.
TERRI HALL, TEXAS TURF: This is about international global companies that are coming in and having their way with our politicians and making sure that this kind of international corridor happens, it doesn't matter what it does to the people in the path, it doesn't matter what it does to our way of life.
TUCKER: And that's not going-over well with thousands of people in the way of the massive project who have shown up at town hall meetings held by the state.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Citizens here are not going to bear the burden so Wal-Mart can get their cargo into the U.S. cheaper and faster.
TUCKER: So far none of the companies interested in financing the corridor are American. And among its opponents, presidential candidate and Texas Congressman, Ron Paul.
REP. RON PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We don't know exactly what the long-term plan are and what the motivation is. Is this part of the North American Union or is this just to enhance travel in Texas. And I suspect it's a lot more and it's very costly. It involves millions of acres that may be taken under imminent domain. And besides that everybody I have run into Texas, the people here don't want it.
TUCKER: The Texas Department of Transportation notes that three quarters of the traffic coming out of Mexico to the U.S. comes through Texas. It argues that Texas has to find a way to accommodate the traffic and fund the corridor's construction.
PHIL RUSSELL, TEXAS DEPT. OF TRANS.: Frankly we are in a different day and age right now and the way we built our roadways 50 years ago simply is not keeping up with the congestion that we're seeing here in Texas now.
TUCKER: There is no voter approval needed for the project.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: So like it or not, Texans could just have to live with the corridor and the state is vowing to use imminent domain to lay claim to any landowners who oppose the project and those opposed say, Lou, they are not against new and better roads. They just would prefer to see the expansion improvement of existing roadways rather than something on the size and scale of I-69 or TTC.
DOBBS: You know that expression that Texans love set up by the Department of Transportation, don't mess with Texas...
TUCKER: Yes.
DOBBS: They put it up in terms of protecting the roads and beautifying the highways, this is really messing with Texas. You can't tell me that Governor Rick Perry (ph) and the head of the Department of Transportation down there that they are dumb enough to say that because of all this traffic is coming out of Mexico that Texas citizens should be funding the highway that is needed as a result of that traffic.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: That is absolutely idiotic.
TUCKER: The folks at the Department of Transportation told me today look we can't -- it's not our job to stop...
(CROSSTALK)
TUCKER: You know these trucks are coming in...
DOBBS: Whose job is it?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Whose job is it?
TUCKER: They would say that's above their pay grade...
DOBBS: I'll tell you what. It isn't above their pay grade. There is not a single American who has -- that's a cop out. Every American gets a voice in these issues and every Texan certainly should. And I got to say if people are putting up with this nonsense from their state government and Governor Rick Perry (ph) and their Department of Transportation, these are not the Texans that I know and who I respect mightily. I mean to put up with this is just idiotic.
TUCKER: Well they are not putting up with it. By -- some of the estimations that I got this afternoon, 10,000 people have shown up at these 46 town hall meetings, which wrap up this week and they have been very vocal. There have not been any supporters at these meetings. There have been a lot of opposition.
DOBBS: Well this is another example they are trying to ram this nonsense through -- you know this is not -- they are trying to be so cute. All of these folk who want to put together this highway that would run in their dreams from Mexico to Canada. I just -- I cannot imagine why there is not just complete outrage here throughout the state of Texas at this, the very idea of it. It makes no sense on any level.
TUCKER: We'll get a look at some of that outrage because we are attending some of the meetings tonight, Lou, and we will be back to talk about that tomorrow.
DOBBS: You got a deal. Bill Tucker, thank you. And what happened to don't mess with Texas. I am worried. I'm worried. I tell you.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is: Do you believe the presidential candidates of both parties should be required to take a position on the North American Union and the NAFTA super highway? Oh god forbid. Yes or no. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts. We'll bring the results here later in the broadcast as you vote.
And time for some of your thoughts. Thousands of you e-mailing your opinions in about Senator Obama and his use of Governor Deval Patrick's words without attribution or plagiarism as Senator Hillary Clinton's campaign put it.
Charles in Georgia said: "Obama's forgetfulness is unfortunate. We should be concerned about having a forgetful president. It seems like an unwillingness to be accountable. Maybe he fits in with Washington after all."
And Margaret in Wisconsin disagreeing: "Dear Lou, your austere views about plagiarism not withstanding the point that both Patrick and Obama were making was that the various statements were not in fact mere words and that words are important. Knee jerk outrage can go very far, but sometimes it just makes you end up looking like a jerk."
Well in this case I think both Deval Patrick and Senator Obama need to think about what they were saying. Because these are campaign words and none of the words that they were quoting were campaign words. In fact they were marked with great action on the part of everyone who had uttered those words. Neither Deval Patrick nor Senator Obama can yet make that claim.
And Mark in Virginia: "Lou, I recently heard Senator Clinton give a speech where she used Obama's yes, we can. She failed to credit him for the phrase. Isn't she also guilty of what she is accusing him of?" Perhaps, but certainly not in this case, Mark. Actually she is no way in this case.
In point of fact, (INAUDIBLE) is the rallying cry for the United Farm Worker's Union and it has been the rallying cry for more than four decades, so actually it is Senator Obama who should be crediting Caesar Chavez and the United Farm Workers Union for (INAUDIBLE) or yes we can.
But that gets complicated in a primary like this. Because you see, the United Farm Workers Union has endorsed Senator Clinton for president. We will have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Coming up next, more on the face-off over what the Clinton campaign calls a pattern of plagiarism by Senator Obama. I'll be joined by three of my favorite political analysts. We will be discussing this increasingly nasty business called a presidential campaign.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Clinton spoke out about Senator Obama's use of someone else's words in a campaign speech without attributing those words. Senator Clinton said, "If your whole candidacy is about words, then they should be your own words. That's what I think."
Well, joining me now, we're going to find out what some other folks think as Joe Madison, radio talk show host WOL Washington, D.C. and also XM Radio.
You thought I was going to forget that, didn't you, Joe?.
JOE MADISON, WOL: I know they didn't want you to.
DOBBS: Miguel Perez, syndicated columnist. Miguel, good to have you with us.
And CNN contributor and LOU DOBBS TONIGHT contributor, Carol Swain, professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt University. Professor, good to have you with us all the way down there in Vanderbilt.
Let me ask you, Carol, your thoughts. First the reaction to the borrowed rhetoric as the expression has become.
PROF. CAROL SWAIN, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: There was certainly merit in the way -- I was almost going to call it sister Clinton, but the way Senator Clinton, the points she made about the merit in it because so many see Senator Obama as being inspirational and it's his words that have drawn people to the campaign. Because it's his words that make so many people want to follow him, you would want them to be his words.
DOBBS: OK. Joe Madison?
MADISON: I think it's ridiculous quite honestly. The governor of Massachusetts said look, I have told him he could use those phrases. As a matter of fact, I helped write his speeches. I can't tell you how many times I have been in the presence of even Lou Dobbs and said I am going to use that.
I said make sure you give me credit. I don't know if you do or not and it doesn't make a difference. I've been where I've heard Jesse Jackson speak and Dick Gregory has borrowed my jokes from my speeches and he didn't say I got this from Joe Madison. It's just -- this story got about more day of life to it and that's it.
DOBBS: Do you agree?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: I think it would have been better if he said my friend from the governor of Massachusetts uses this all the time and agree with him when they accused him of using simple words. And then he would have attributed it to someone. I don't think it's as big of a deal as Hillary Clinton's camp wants to make it and I certainly think that it shows that there is a certain amount of frustration.
MADISON: And desperation.
PEREZ: Desperation.
MADISON: They are grasping now and I'm telling you, it's a one- day story. That's it. It's over.
DOBBS: OK. Are they grasping and pointing out as Mrs. McCain did today that she has been proud of this country throughout. As Michelle Obama said for the first time in her adult life she is really proud of this country.
What do you think, Joe?
MADISON: I didn't hear what she had to say. I have to tell you ...
DOBBS: We have that available.
MADISON: I had a bunch of people call me today jumping you. I'm going, what was this about? I didn't hear what she said honestly.
DOBBS: Jump at me?
MADISON: I was trying to defend you.
DOBBS: If we can play what Michelle Obama said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, WIFE OF BARACK OBAMA: And let me tell you something. For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: All right. That's what we played.
MADISON: In what context was she referring to? A lot of people are kind of proud now of the way this country has changed. In the barbershops where I go, we're sitting there amazed about Idaho. We are going Idaho went with Obama? This is a seat change.
DOBBS: Don't be messing with Idaho.
MADISON: I'm not messing with it but give me a break.
DOBBS: Come on.
MADISON: Well, you don't live in my neighborhood and you obviously don't go to my barbershop.
DOBBS: Well, you don't go to Idaho.
MADISON: Right. It's the only state I haven't been to. I want to go. I would like to visit Idaho. Please invite me.
DOBBS: We're going to be back. We're going to give Carol Swain an opportunity to speak. We're also going to let Miguel Perez talk.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We are back with Joe Madison, Miguel Perez and Professor Carol Swain.
Professor, just before we went to break, you were about to say something about the comments by Michelle Obama.
SWAIN: Yes. I think that within the academy, we certainly consider plagiarism as a serious offense and we teach our students not to do that. And the problem with Senator Obama's comments, they were almost verbatim.
I think we expect more of him because of the fact that he has been so inspirational, and he has so many young people following him. And if he is the candidate of change, we don't expect him to act in the same way as other candidates. We expect a higher standard.
PEREZ: Well, I'm a professor too. I teach journalism. We do and are always concerned about plagiarism. This is not plagiarism. It would have been plagiarism if the governor of Massachusetts had said hey, this guy stole my speech. But obviously he had permission to use this speech. He obviously made a mistake in not giving him credit. He should have attributed it, but it's not --
SWAIN: But why use the speech?
PEREZ: Besides, what he was quoting, it's quotes from other people. It's not something terribly original here that was being quoted.
DOBBS: All right. Let's turn now to another development.
Fidel Castro stepping down as president of Cuba -- Miguel?
PEREZ: Why are you looking at me?
DOBBS: Perhaps because you are a Cuban-American.
PEREZ: I was born there. Yes, I came when I was 11-years-old. This is the day that I have and my family have been waiting for 40 something years. It's a historic day only because of this, Lou, because it's the end of the longest dictatorship in the modern world, in the history of the modern world.
Korea had the record of 44 years. Castro already beat him by four years. He is the longest lasting dictator in modern history. We are talking about a guy who has been there for 10 U.S. presidents. He lasted longer than 10 U.S. presidents.
We're talking about a guy who has suppressed his people for all this time and people who are hungry for freedom. You know my parents and grandparents died in Florida waiting for today and waiting to see this man dead. I am here on their behalf.
Today is an important day for all Cuban Americans and all Cubans. It's going to be a much bigger day when he finally dies and it's not over until there is freedom in Cuba, until there's free elections, until the dissidents are freed for just speaking. He has hundreds of people in jail for just speaking out. There has god to be an end to it now.
DOBBS: Professor Swain, do you think that end is really near?
SWAIN: I hope it's near but I think it remains to be seen. It depends on what happens with his successor.
DOBBS: Cuba is a fascinating country and people.
MADISON: I don't think much is going to change because it's still in the family. It is a fascinating country. My youngest daughter visited Cuba as part of a semester at sea program and of all the 10 countries that she visited, she fell in love with the people of Cuba.
I just find it interesting. I hope that both sides send signals to each other to make a change because that's the only way it has to happen. We are not going to signal Cuba because of the political ramifications so there has to be some type of joint communicating.
Something is crazy in this world where a communist country like Vietnam, our clothes are made there and China owns us. And it's the largest communist country on the planet and here is this little country off the shore of Florida and we don't have a relationship with it that is meaningful. Something has to change.
PEREZ: But you have all this talk about lifting the embargo. I was for the embargo all my life and I recognize that it hasn't worked. OK. But at the same time, what do you do? Do you reward them, lift the embargo without them having free elections, without them getting the free press and letting people speak? There has to be signals.
DOBBS: I'm going to upset viewers again. This country is sitting there 90 miles from our shores and the fact that we cannot reach with that country under Fidel Castro or Raul Castro or whomever succeeds and we can invest billions and billions of dollars in communist China while we don't in this hemisphere, in Mexico, throughout this hemisphere.
It is preposterous to think we had 10 presidents over the course of time and we have not reached a rational approach with Cuba is unthinkable. If this is the level of gift that we can expect from our national leaders, I think we are in serious trouble.
MADISON: I think there has to be back channeling discussions that go on, Lou, because politically, look at the emotion that we have here. It's not going to have that happen and there's no president has the guts to take on Cuba.
DOBBS: Thirteen years ago, I was greeted in the Miami Herald with Dobbs's left wing offenses on Cuba. The nonsense that is, the pandering that has been going on with the Cuban American community, particularly in southern Florida is insane.
PEREZ: For no good reason. No president that has gone to Miami from both sides, from both parties that promised all kinds of things has done nothing anyway.
But one point I really need to make about the embargo, it really is Castro who doesn't want it lifted. Every time this country has been close to lifting the embargo, Castro shoots down some planes or goes to Angola or exports to South America. Castro doesn't want to lift it.
DOBBS: You are right, but I have to say this. 300 million people, the world's only super power, we are smart enough to get this right if we want.
MADISON: Well maybe instead of me going to Idaho, I ought to go to Havana.
DOBBS: We'll make it a tour. You and I will head for Idaho and then we'll go to Havana.
PEREZ: I'll wait for you guys in Idaho.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Appreciate it, Miguel. Carol Swain, thank you very much.
SWAIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Joe Madison, what the heck. It's good to see you.
MADISON: Always good to see you.
DOBBS: Up next, the polls in Wisconsin will close in just bout an hour, we'll have the latest for you on that race. And looking ahead to the next political battleground.
Stay with us. We are coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT contributor, Michael Goodwin, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist, "New York Daily News."
Good to have you here.
Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf, also LOU DOBBS TONIGHT contributor.
Hank, great to have you here.
And way down in Washington, D.C., Jonathan Martin, senior political reporter, Politico.com.
Jonathan, good to have you with us here tonight.
Let's start Michael Wisconsin, is this a make or break or is it a non-event for Senator Clinton and Senator Obama?
MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well look, she clearly -- a victory for her would mean a lot. First of all, she was not supposed to win here more recently and if she can pull it off, she gets herself a second leg. It's an important time for her going forward.
On the other hand, if he wins, it's a really big deal. I think it continues the winning streak. He's more likely to also rack up Hawaii tonight. He will have a big delegate night. And of course, at this point, it is about delegates.
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The problem is to break his momentum, that's her tactical imperative. That's her strategic imperative. They probably will not do that tonight. Wisconsin, younger voters and blue collar people breaking the wrong way for Hillary Clinton, not so good. If it works for her, fine. If not, she has a lot of back pedaling to do. She's got to somehow catch up and it's going to be much more difficult.
DOBBS: And the next catch-up point is Texas. Jonathan, what are your thoughts?
JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO.COM: I think that she could have scored a moral victory tonight if she say you know came within a two or three points of Obama. However if Obama is able to win this thing by a considerable margin, I think that's really going to be an emphatic statement that his momentum is going forward here unabated and even in a place with plenty of down scale voters, blue collar voters that Senator Clinton has done about well with, he still has not been stopped.
GOODWIN: You know Lou if I could, Jonathan used the moral victory motion. I mean I remember people talking about the NFL, that there no moral victories in the NFL. I think that's the way it is in politics, too. When you get down this close to the delegate hunt, there no moral victories. You need delegates.
SHEINKOPF: She needs to win. You have to get Ws on the board. It's just that simple. And what happens is that voters tend to follow the momentum, as political reporters do and as the press corps generally does. That's her problem tonight.
DOBBS: Is it really that straight forward, Hank, that victory produces victory? I mean is that what's going on here?
SHEINKOPF: Look, the politicians tend to follow public opinion. That's why they stay in office. That's the rational move. The voters do the same. They follow their own opinions and they build up momentum as they go. There is a lot of literature on it. As he keeps winning, it makes it more difficult for her to win. Why? Because people want to be with someone who is winning.
MARTIN: That's right.
DOBBS: Jonathan Martin as you say that's right, I get the sense that there is almost something settling in here and that Senator Obama in your mind is going to prevail. Am I incorrect in what I'm inferring?
MARTIN: Well I think that if you just look at some of the exit data that we have seen so far, demographically he is doing better among women and among down scale voters to the point where it does seem like he is on track for a victory tonight.
My only point previously was that I think there obviously differences between a win and a big win. If he has the kind of success anywhere near what he had last week, anything approaching 10 points or more, I think it puts an exclamation point on his momentum here going forward.
DOBBS: There is some shaking of the head here, Jonathan. We are going to return to Hank Sheinkopf and to Michael Goodwin and of course, Jonathan Martin in Washington, D.C. as our discussion on this primary evening continues.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We are back with our panel. But first, 97 percent of you according to our poll say you believe the presidential candidates of both parties should be required to take a position on the North American Union and the NAFTA superhighway, 97 percent.
Well, back with Michael Goodwin, Hank Sheinkopf and Jonathan Martin in D.C.
Jonathan, let's ask you first. The idea that Obama has an irrepressible campaign here, is that settling in?
MARTIN: I think if he wins tonight with a significant margin, that's going to be much more cemented, Lou, absolutely. I think that his victories last week were so decisive here in Virginia, Maryland, and Washington, D.C. that you started to pick up that buzz.
Another big night this evening would really make that I think a reality and also it would make Ohio and Texas unquestionably must wins for her and would make those two states so that she didn't win there, everybody will be asking for her to come out of the race.
DOBBS: Hank Sheinkopf?
SHEINKOPF: Look, the problem here is the demographics in the state of Wisconsin, a population Hillary should have done better with no matter what happened. She should do well. Why? Fifty-five percent of that population, no college education and blue collar, a place where democrats need to do well. If she is going to be the nominee, she's got to do well. If he does well there, if that's what happens tonight, it's an indication of where this thing is going.
DOBBS: Do you agree?
GOODWIN: Well, I don't mean to be the contrarian, but I think it's too early to say Hillary can't win. I think the sense that Obama if he wins tonight he is a big step closer. Sure it helps, but I think there are still a number of states and there is going to be a fight over the superdelegates. Neither one of them can win without superdelegates and of course, she is still going to play the Michigan and Florida cards. It's not over yet no matter what happens tonight.
DOBBS: Well I can tell you not having a dog in this hunt as an independent, I really hope that it goes all the way to the convention and perhaps beyond the convention if that's possible.
But in terms of the republicans, this thing is really over, isn't it Jonathan Martin? At what point does Huckabee lose standing to even continue?
MARTIN: Well, I think the question right now on the Republican side is what exactly is Huckabee up to? I've been talking with some folks actually the past couple of days about just this topic, Lou, and I think he increasingly recognizes that it's not happening this year, but he wants to emerge as sort of the second to last man standing in this race and his folks think around him that that puts him in a pretty good spot for whatever he wants, either next year or perhaps four years or eight years down the road.
DOBBS: Are they right, Hank?
SHEINKOPF: What it does is it puts him in as an also ran in a presidential contest that no one will remember next month. That's putting it in context.
GOODWIN: I think the issue is --
DOBBS: Hank's feeling tough tonight.
GOODWIN: Harsh.
SHEINKOPF: That are breakfast cereal works. You should try it.
GOODWIN: I think the issue is really not so much about Huckabee, but about McCain, why he can't put him away and that's what Huckabee keeps reminding everybody that McCain can't seal the deal.
DOBBS: Well the Republicans, they can't blame proportional delegates.
GOODWIN: That's right and look, there are lots of problems with McCain. So I think McCain should view this as I said last night an opportunity to step up his game. Instead he is kind of sleep walking through this period. And that he hasn't knocked Huckabee out I think is his own responsibility.
MARTIN: Yes. They've made a choice to I think basically Lou try to ignore Huckabee and focus on the general rather than try and engage him, which is basically I think helped to marginalize Huckabee but you're absolutely right. By not putting him away and by letting him pick up some of these counties here and there, some delegates here and there, I think it does remind folks the challenges McCain has on his right.
GOODWIN: Right.
DOBBS: Well McCain has certainly done one thing amongst the many others but one thing is to come back. I mean this guy was written off several months ago and he has come back to be the presumptive nominee. I mean you've got to give him a lot of credit.
GOODWIN: I do and I think too, Lou, you see a day like today with Kosovo, with Cuba, and with Pakistan, it's going to be a foreign policy election.
DOBBS: OK. We thank you very much, Michael Goodwin, as always, Hank Sheinkopf and Jonathan Martin in Washington. Thanks for being with us tonight.
Our special election coverage continues right now.
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