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Lou Dobbs Tonight
The Latest on Campaign '08
Aired February 25, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, is anyone listening to these presidential candidates? This is supposed to be the year of change, remember, but listen to this, the Obama campaign accusing the Clinton team of shameful fear mongering, Senator Clinton sarcastic and blasting Senator Obama. Yes, it is politics as usual on the presidential campaign trail, so much for change. We'll have all of that, the latest on the Republican race, all the day's news and much more straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Monday, February 25. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening everybody. The increasingly nasty campaign between Senators Clinton and Obama today became even uglier. The Obama campaign accusing Clinton staff of releasing a picture of Obama wearing traditional African clothes, the Clinton campaign called the charge a transparent effort to distract voters from serious issues.
Meanwhile, Senator McCain today acknowledged that the progress of the war in Iraq will be a significant factor, as he put it, for the future of his candidacy, McCain, a strong supporter of the surge strategy. We have extensive coverage tonight from the presidential campaign trail and we begin with Candy Crowley on the Clinton/Obama battle -- Candy.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, remember that mostly nice respectful debate of last Thursday? All gone.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): Democrat to Democrat, it is the unkindest cut of all, a comparison to George W. Bush.
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've seen the tragic result of having a president who had neither the experience nor the wisdom to manage our foreign policy and safeguard our national security. We can't let that happen again.
CROWLEY: After declining last Thursday to say Barack Obama doesn't have enough experience to be president, Hillary Clinton went after him Monday in a foreign policy speech doing just that.
H. CLINTON: The American people don't have to guess whether I understand the issues of whether I would need a foreign policy instruction manual to guide me through a crisis. CROWLEY: As Clinton questioned Obama's credentials, his campaign accused hers of shameful and offensive fear mongering by circulating this, a picture of Obama in African garb while visiting Kenya in 2006. It appeared on "The Drudge Report". There is no evidence at this being circulated at all and the Clinton campaign says it knows nothing about it. The fractious Monday followed a rough and tumble weekend as the two sparred over an Obama leaflet accusing Clinton of saying the North American Free Trade Agreement was a boon to the economy.
H. CLINTON: Shame on you, Barack Obama. It is time you ran a campaign consistent with your messages in public. That's what I expect from you. Meet me in Ohio, let's have a debate.
CROWLEY: NAFTA is estimated to have cost Ohio 50,000 jobs. The Obama campaign admits the word boon is not hers, but says she made frequent favorable comments about NAFTA including this one in 1996.
H. CLINTON: Oh I think that everybody is in favor of free and fair trade and I think that NAFTA is proving its worth.
CROWLEY: Obama has been hitting Clinton for days on the subject and mentions the trade agreement at most stops.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Foreign trade agreements don't have strong labor standards, strong environmental standards so that U.S. workers are not being undermined. NAFTA didn't have those things. That's why I oppose NAFTA.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: It came as a surprise to no one that late in the afternoon the Clinton campaign put out a press release with a long list of quotes from Barack Obama, the Clinton campaign says proves he too has said nice things about NAFTA -- Lou.
DOBBS: Candy, this is really remarkable, the level at which these two are really descending. I mean in point of fact, Senator Clinton, irrespective of her support for her president's signing of NAFTA, has been extremely critical of NAFTA and the fact is that Senator Obama has suggested that changing this would not be -- changing the NAFTA treaty would not be realistic. I mean how silly is it going to get?
CROWLEY: Well I can only say stay tuned, but you know you're absolutely right. I mean the fact of the matter is when you look at their policies, whether it is NAFTA, whether it's health care, they don't tend to have that much difference between the two of them. And when they find the difference they just go at it. I mean they are -- you know they are really going at each other. And frankly you know as well as I know, Lou, this is because the stakes are so high coming up next Tuesday. As we know, certainly former President Clinton has said and they believe inside the Clinton campaign that if she doesn't win Ohio and she doesn't win Texas next Tuesday it's over with, so that accounts for a lot of the veracity.
DOBBS: Well as you put it, the stakes may be high, but let me say it this way. The standards are certainly not. Thank you very much, Candy Crowley.
Senator McCain today linked his prospects of success in the presidential campaign to success in the war in Iraq. McCain told reporters that if he cannot convince voters that the United States is succeeding in Iraq, then quote, "then I lose." But McCain quickly retreated from his remarks, saying Iraq will play a role in voters' judgment of my ability to handle national security. McCain of course has been a consistent support of the surge since it began a year ago. Dan Bash has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Campaigning in Rocky River, Ohio, John McCain got his one standing ovation from this line.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will never surrender and they will and I want to assure you of that.
BASH: But as defiant as the likely Republican nominee is about staying in Iraq, new evidence that McCain realizes the political battle against Democrats who want troops home now will not be easy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would be some benchmarks as far as progress in Iraq?
BASH: When a voter asked about Iraqi progress, McCain used the opportunity to clarify a controversial remark he made in early January.
MCCAIN: By the way, that reminds me of this 100-year thing. My friends, the war will be over soon. The war for all intense and purposes, although the insurgency will go on for years and years and years, but it will be handled by the Iraqis, not by us.
BASH: Last month McCain said this when asked how many years the U.S. will be in Iraq.
MCCAIN: Maybe 100...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: We have been in South Korea -- we have been in Japan for 60 years, we've been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That would be fine with me...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: ... as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed.
BASH: Democrats pounced and regularly use the 100-years line to warn voters a McCain presidency would be a third Bush term.
OBAMA: He says we can stay in Iraq for 100 years. That's the politics of yesterday. H. CLINTON: Continue the war in Iraq for 100 years. I will start bringing our troops home within 60 days.
BASH: McCain denied those attacks are resonating with voters, but...
MCCAIN: They hear it repeated by the Democrats, they don't talk about their predictions (INAUDIBLE) that the surge would absolutely fail.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Earlier today, John McCain made a stark prediction that he would lose the election if things don't turn around in Iraq. He quickly took that back, but here in Parma just a short while ago, we talked to him, he did admit that his political fortunes are tied to what happens on the ground in Iraq.
Now, Lou, you talk to John McCain, he is the first to admit that he came back from the political dead over the summer because things did turn around in Iraq because he is so tied to what's going on there in terms of the military strategy. But his advisers fully understand that making the case to stay the course of Iraq to GOP primary voters who are for the most part pro war is very, very different from making that case to the general electorate who are a lot more war weary, especially in states like this one in Ohio -- Lou.
DOBBS: Certainly not as war weary, to put it in balance, if you will, Dana, as the left wing of the Democratic Party, which is the wing of which both Obama and Clinton are focusing their appeals, correct?
BASH: Absolutely, there is no question about that. That's why at every stop John McCain makes the case that he will be quite a different candidate, quite a different president, that the dividing line could not be more stark between John McCain either Clinton or Obama in the general election...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Senators Clinton and Obama suggesting that they can withdraw troops quickly from Iraq, Senator Clinton said what was it, 60 days?
BASH: Correct.
DOBBS: I mean is there anyone...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Is there anyone in this country who believes either of them would be capable of doing so?
BASH: That is a very good question. It's a very you know realistic pragmatic question and it is one I think that both of them have been asked during debates by reporters like us. And you know that is one of the reasons, Lou, why at least a few months ago Senator Clinton tried to use her perks on the Senate Armed Services Committee to push the administration to come up with a plan. That was part of the reason why because realistically any Democrat knows that would be virtually impossible to do that so quickly.
DOBBS: Yet they continue to press that on the primary campaign trail and we would suggest that Senator McCain has a problem in the general election? Doesn't it seem that the Democratic candidate if they continue that rhetoric will have a very difficult time in the general election?
BASH: That is certainly the case John McCain is going to make over and over again. But the reality is you know the polls, you know the sentiment in this country, regardless of the details, the details are incredibly important, you're absolutely right, the sentiment is the fact that people are just you know tired of the war and that is, there's no question why John McCain continues to make the case, just like you heard in the piece, just like you're going to hear at every single stop that he would be quite different in terms of a candidate, in terms of a president than Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton because his perspective...
DOBBS: I real guarantee you on this broadcast irrespective of the polls, we're going to be reporting on what the candidates are saying and they're going to have to back it up. And I think it's going to be a very interesting general election in this country because I think both Republicans and Democrats are going to have a heck of a lot of explaining to do. Dana, thank you very much, Dana Bash.
The editor who represents "The New York Times" readers, the ombudsman at "The Times" is strongly criticizing "The Times" now over an article about Senator McCain last week. "The Times" public editor, Clark Hoyt, challenged the newspaper editor's suggestion that Senator McCain had a quote, "romantic relationship with a female lobbyist", a charge that Senator McCain said -- that the lobbyist and Senator McCain said is simply untrue.
Writing in "The New York Times" Hoyt said, quote, "if a newspaper is going to suggest an improper sexual affair, whether editors think that is a central point or not, it owes readers more proof than "The Times" was able to provide", end quote. "The Times" editors are standing by their story, of course. They say it speaks for itself and so does that statement by their ombudsman.
Republican and Democratic candidates are stepping up their campaigns in Texas before the primary there March 4th. The race between Senators Clinton and Obama as you would expect and probably know extremely tight. In a new CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll there is nothing to dissipate that clear suggestion indicating last week's CNN debate did influence, however, some voter's opinions of the contest. Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Before last week's debate, the Democratic race in Texas was close and after the debate, still close; Barack Obama 50; Hillary Clinton 46. Obama may have gained from the debate.
H. CLINTON: Whatever happens we're going to be fine. You know we have strong support from our families and our friends.
SCHNEIDER: Among Texas Democratic primary voter who watched the debate, Obama leads Clinton by 20 points. Among the 42 percent who followed news about the debate, Clinton and Obama are neck and neck. Among Democrats who paid no attention to the debate, Clinton leads Obama by nearly 20 points. In Texas as in other states, Clinton does best with older blue collar and rural voters. They want a leader who can deliver.
BILL BISHOP, AUTHOR: I think rural areas have had a tough time the last 20 years and so they're looking for candidates that have some specific answers about changes in the economy.
SCHNEIDER: Clinton delivers. Obama inspires. He appeals to voters who identity with his values like the ones who rallied for him in Austin Friday night.
BISHOP: They approach politics as self identification and it's not what can this person do for me. It is how can this person represent me and be like -- the kind of person that I am.
SCHNEIDER: Identity politics has a lot to do with how Democrats are lining up in the Texas standoff. White men for Obama, white women for Clinton, African Americans six to one for Obama, Latinos, nearly two to one for Clinton who claims to identify with Latino voters' needs and aspirations. She's even got a new Spanish language theme song.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: So how does the Democratic race look in the other three states that will be voting on March 4th? Well three Ohio polls all show Clinton leading and the average is about 10 points. She's leading by 12 in Rhode Island, but Obama has a big lead in Vermont. The Super Tuesday two states seem to be split just like the Super Tuesday one states -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let's hone in on something and that is in particular the white vote, as you say, going for Obama, that is an amazing statistic I suppose in the context of group and identify politics, as you're reporting on it, and the overwhelming preference among Latinos in that poll for Senator Clinton. Square that up for us.
SCHNEIDER: Well the while vote of course is closely split over all, men for Obama, women for Clinton. Remember this is Texas. White men in Texas are voting for Barack Obama, African American times certainly seem to have changed. They're Democrats of course, keep that in mind. On the Latino side, there really isn't identity politics in play. Neither candidate is a Latino, but Latinos have a long standing in Texas, particularly have long standing ties with Hillary Clinton. She has been there a great deal. She has worked in South Texas. She lived there for awhile. Her husband worked in Texas and they identify her as someone they're familiar with.
Obama they simply don't know very much about. And he's making a very strong effort to reach out to them so they will get to know him.
DOBBS: Well I mean here we go with this group and identity politics, Bill Schneider. You said you thought that was explained that white males were going for Obama because they're Democrats. Are you suggesting Republicans wouldn't? There was an interesting sort of inference to be drawn there.
SCHNEIDER: I'm suggesting they're going for Obama not just because they're Democrats. They all were in this poll, but they're men. And women are voting for Clinton because they're women. And that's part of the identity politic system. That seems to be playing out in this campaign, at least among Democrats.
DOBBS: Well this is -- it is really a very ugly thing we're looking at here when we look at it from one perspective. If this is all about group and identity politics in this country, we're in one level, I mean I can tell you we've in my judgment come a long way when we don't have whites voting just for whites. But at the same time, when you have an issue of overwhelmingly one racial group showing up for one of the candidates, what does that imply?
SCHNEIDER: It implies not necessarily that it is prejudice but it is pride. African Americans clearly are voting for...
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa partner.
SCHNEIDER: What's that?
DOBBS: I appreciate you know as our friends Senators Obama and Clinton would say, you know let's talk about the rhetoric here for a moment. We won't borrow any. But this, you know we've got the same standard, don't we? I mean there is such a thing as pride and there is such a thing as prejudice. How do you make a distinction between the two...
SCHNEIDER: One is positive and one is negative.
DOBBS: Yeah, I know. I understand the connotation...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm asking how do you arrive at the definition.
SCHNEIDER: Well because I arrive at the definition by concluding from the poll and from observations that most -- almost all the African-Americans who are voting for Barack Obama are not voting for him because they're anti-white or anti-female. They're voting for him because they're proud of him.
DOBBS: And the women who are voting for Senator Clinton are proud?
SCHNEIDER: Yes, a lot of them. You talk to women out there -- I have been out on the campaign...
DOBBS: No, no...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm just curious and those white folks who are voting for Obama, what are they?
SCHNEIDER: Some of them are men. A lot of them are men who may not want to vote for a woman. That could be prejudice. A lot of people think it is. A lot of them simply think a man can do the job better. That of course would be a prejudicial view.
DOBBS: That would be, but why wouldn't they just be voting for a person they think who happens in this instance to be black, is just a pretty good fellow.
SCHNEIDER: Well certainly a lot of them are. That's the amazing thing. These are white voters in Texas who are not voting identity politics. They're voting for an African-American man who inspires them. I saw that happening when I was in Austin last week.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't want to get on that -- we don't want to get on "Saturday Night Live" here.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Thanks, Bill Schneider. Appreciate it.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Iraq is no longer the number one issue for voters in this country, but the fighting in Iraq goes on and the deaths continue. Insurgents killing two more of troops; the soldiers were killed in separate attacks in Baghdad; 28 of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month; 3,972 of our troops have been killed since the war began; 29,203 of our troops have been wounded; 13,060 of them seriously.
And the Pentagon today said 140,000 of our troops will remain in Iraq in July after the surge troops are withdrawn; 8,000 more troops sent in January of last year when the president announced the surge strategy; the U.S. military deciding to keep those additional support troops in Iraq, such as military police and aviation units.
Coming up here next, the battle over so-called free trade intensifying on the campaign trail, ye ha, (ph). Christine Romans will have a special report for us -- Christine. CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Democrats who want to be president are trying to out-anti-NAFTA each other in Ohio, a state that has lost a quarter of its manufacturing jobs since 2000, many say because of failed American trade policies -- Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely, we're looking forward to it, Christine, thanks, Christine Romans with that report coming up.
And at least one presidential candidate refusing to support federal agents who are trying to crack down on illegal employers of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have that report.
And top Democrats in the House of Representatives ignoring the will of the people, again, still, you decide. Those Democrats trying to kill a bipartisan piece of legislation that would toughen our laws against illegal immigration. Amnesty, anybody smell amnesty? We'll have that report and a great deal more straight ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents aggressively targeting illegal businesses hiring illegal aliens illegally and at the same time advocates of amnesty for illegal aliens including one, at least one of the presidential candidates say they want these raids stopped, saying the raids are inhumane. Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When immigration agents arrested 138 suspected illegal aliens at Micro Solutions Enterprises in Los Angeles this month, ICE notified local Latino advocacy groups that the raids were under way. ICE is trying to address criticism that past raids have sometimes resulted in parents being separated from their children. In fact, 46 of the Micro Solutions workers were released because of child care, health or other humanitarian issues.
MARC RAIMONDI, FORMER ICE SPOKESMAN: ICE takes extraordinary steps to ensure that they evaluate everybody arrested for any humanitarian concerns which might be present. Then they make the appropriate decision based on the information they gather. Sometimes that means releasing them with a notice to appear.
WIAN: Still Senator Hillary Clinton says she would consider ending ICE work place raids if elected president.
H. CLINTON: I would consider that except in egregious situations where it would be appropriate to take the actions you're referring to. But when we see what has been happening with literally babies being left with no one to take care of them. Children coming home from school, no responsible adult left. That is not the American that I know.
WIAN: Barack Obama did not answer the question directly but indicated he is concerned the raids might be discriminatory. OBAMA: We have to crack down on those employers, although we also have to make sure that we do it in a way that doesn't lead to people with Spanish surnames being discriminated against.
WIAN: Two leading Catholic bishops recently complained in a letter to the Department of Homeland Security that its new policy addressing humanitarian concerns of illegal aliens arrested in work site raids quote, "falls short of what is necessary."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: ICE says it asks suspected illegal aliens twice, once at their job site and again at a processing center if they have child care or any other humanitarian concerns. And it is worth noting that of the estimated 12 to 20 million illegal aliens now in the United States, only about 5,000 were apprehended in work site raids last year -- Lou.
DOBBS: Yeah, this is really quite something and the fact that ICE is going to these -- to this extent, to be considerate of those who have small children, which is in my judgment entirely appropriate, but for the senators to trade as Senator Obama did, talking about discrimination against Spanish surnames. I mean I'm not quite sure what Senator Obama meant by that. Are you?
WIAN: Not sure either because when have you got a phony identity in terms of a stolen Social Security number or some other phony form of identification that allowed you to get that job, has nothing to do whether your surname is Hispanic or not.
DOBBS: And Senator Obama understands that, so does Senator Clinton. And Senator Clinton's suggestions here, I mean what we have got frankly in these three presidential candidates is to me just an amazing collection of thoughts on the issues of illegal immigration and border security and an amazing collection of what they think U.S. sovereignty and the American people, which apparently isn't much. Thank you very much, Casey Wian.
Up next here, Senators Obama and Clinton trading charges over their positions on free trade, NAFTA and its impact on this country's struggling middle class. We'll have that report.
And a photo of Barack Obama in African dress circulating on the Internet. His campaign calls it fear mongering. Is it that or is it just bad judgment in dress or is it just presidential politics as usual? We will hear from three of the country's leading political analysts. Stay with me. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senators Clinton and Obama tonight fighting to distance themselves from NAFTA ahead of a presidential Democratic debate that will be held in Ohio tomorrow. NAFTA of course has cost just about a million jobs in this country and tens of thousands of jobs in the state of Ohio. Senator McCain meanwhile remains a firm supporter of what he calls free trade. Christine Romans has our report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): To Ohio audiences, NAFTA is a dirty word.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NAFTA has devastated this country.
ROMANS: Something the Democrats clearly understand.
OBAMA: She was great -- saying great things about NAFTA until she started running for president.
ROMANS: In Lorain, Ohio, Senator Barack Obama tells the crowd 50,000 jobs have been lost in the state because of NAFTA, 1 million nationwide.
OBAMA: Yet 10 years after NAFTA passed, Senator Clinton said it was good for America. I want to be very clear. I don't think NAFTA has been good for America and I never have.
H. CLINTON: I have been a critic of NAFTA for years.
ROMANS: This dust up began Saturday when Senator Hillary Clinton blasted two mailings to Ohio voters, one showed a locked factory gate and claimed Obama is the only candidate who has consistently opposed NAFTA. Clinton said Obama was spreading lies.
H. CLINTON: Enough with the speeches and the big rallies and then using tactics that are right out of Karl Rove's playbook.
ROMANS: Ohio, a state reeling from lost jobs. Government statistics show Ohio has lost almost a quarter of its manufacturing jobs since 2000. The candidates blame in part the 1994 trade agreement championed and signed by President Bill Clinton, as well as failed trade policies with China.
JOHN GEER, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: They are both kind of out- NAFTA each other and they're just struggling to find these kinds of differences between them and there isn't much light.
ROMANS: Indeed, Clinton and Obama both opposed CAFDA, the controversial Central American Free Trade Agreement that narrowly passed Congress in 2005. Even as Obama tried to be more anti-NAFTA than his rival, he said repealing the trade deal
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Would probably result in more job loss in the United States.
ROMANS: Meanwhile, the Republican front-runner voted for NAFDA and CAFTA and has been consistently unapologetic on the campaign trail. Senator John McCain calling himself the biggest free trader out there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: In recent years, Senator Clinton has said NAFTA was flawed, most recently she had called for a trade time-out to review all trade deals. Obama wants tax-breaks for companies that keep jobs in the United States, don't ship them overseas.
DOBBS: Well Christine, so Senator Obama wants to just get rid of NAFTA.
ROMANS: No, he said that wouldn't many any sense, in fact it might cost more jobs than it would add. He would like some amendments or some protections. But after all that, he says you still can't take it away.
DOBBS: Ah, so what's this little mailing all about?
ROMANS: The mailing, Lou, is about trying to out-anti-NAFTA each other in a state where NAFTA is a dirty word.
DOBBS: Well you know, what's getting to be a dirty word here are the kind of politics these two are playing. That is I would think immensely objectionable to Democratic voters that Obama would sit there and say something like that and then say, oh, what the heck, I can't do much about it.
ROMANS: We'll see in the debate if they really have to get into it and tell Ohio voters what the real position is on some of these free trade agreements and where they stand on free trade agreements going forward.
DOBBS: Well you know, there are two folks in the state of Ohio at least that they ought to be paying some attention to. One is Senator Sherrod Brown and the other one Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur. Those are true critics of NAFTA who have been thinking about this intelligently, deeply for years. And for them to play these kinds of games in Ohio, I don't care what they're thinking, the people in Ohio are too smart for this nonsense. I think the people of the United States are too smart for it. And they will take up the issue of John McCain and his free trade at any cost later.
ROMANS: Story for another time.
DOBBS: Good grief. You've got to believe people are going to learn something at some point over time. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. We'll leave that story for another time -- Christine Romans.
Time now for our poll. The question is, do you believe any of the leading presidential candidates has a record of putting American workers first when it comes to trade policy? A single one, yes or no. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here for you later and the answer.
Time now for some of your thoughts. Richard in Georgia said: "Lou, there used to be an old joke of sorts when I was in the military that went 'the beatings will continue until the morale improves.' It wasn't just in the military that I heard that. It is obvious that the Bush administration operates under this principle as they seem to believe that the exporting of hundreds of thousands of jobs and the importing of millions of illegal aliens will continue until the economy improves. Can't they see what the results have been to our economy?"
Apparently not.
And Cathy in Missouri said: "Dear Lou, I would like to let you know that my husband and I are now proud Independents after over 30 years of voting. Thanks and keep up the good work."
We'll have more of our thoughts here later in the broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Up next, Ralph Nader joins this campaign as an Independent presidential candidate. Three of the best political analysts join me to discuss the impact of that announcement and more.
Also, racial identity and group politics on the campaign trail. My guest tonight, Larry Elder, national syndicated radio talk show host and author of a very important new book.
And a powerful teacher's union opposing plans for a major shake up of one of this country's biggest school districts in Chicago. The leader of the teacher's union joins us. We will have all of that and more straight ahead. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, this is the year of the Independent voter, voting in the upcoming Texas and Ohio primaries of course and that could decisive for the Democratic Party, certainly. A third party candidate, Ralph Nader, has now entered the race as an Independent.
Joining me is Doug Schoen, he is the author of the new book "Declaring Independence: The Beginning of the End in the Two-Party System." And Mark Halperin, senior political analyst at "Time" magazine and Carol Swain, professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt University. Thank you all for being here.
Doug, let me turn to you first, the role of the Independent in both Ohio and Texas. How significant will it be? Which way will they vote?
DOUG SCHOEN, AUTHOR: Critical, Lou. In Texas, Independents are the difference Barack Obama between even with or slightly ahead of Hillary Clinton or being behind. In Ohio, he is 16 points ahead with Independents, 15 points or thereabouts behind with Democrats. Independents are the key to this Democratic primary.
DOBBS: Why in the world are Independents voting for one or the other?
SCHOEN: They're angry. They're just plain mad. Obama offers at least rhetoric, Lou, if nothing more.
DOBBS: All charged up to hear a candidate who's got great rhetoric now.
SCHOEN: Well you know what? For voters who are seeing nothing that responds that their needs, rhetoric is better than nothing.
DOBBS: Mark Halperin, do you agree?
MARK HALPERIN, SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: TIME MAGAZINE: I think that's a big part of his appeal, it's the message of change. Independents have always been attracted to that. They are not as angry, I think, as they've been in a few past presidential cycles. But they're plenty angry, they're plenty frustrated and Obama represents new. Now looking down the road at the general election, McCain has made his whole national political career on an appeal to the Independents. And the question is going to be, if Obama is the nominee, does the appeal he has for them now hold up, or does McCain win a lot of them back?
DOBBS: At this point, what do you think, Professor Swain?
CAROL SWAIN, PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: I think that the research shows that Independents tend to lean either Democrat or Republican and so I think that people will -- if you are an Independent and you lean to you left, you are you going to support the far left candidate. And the opposite - if you are conservative, you look for the conservative candidate, you'll lean in that direction. The problem is that none of the candidates seem very attractive.
SCHOEN: Carol, right now, the Independents are just plain angry. They're mad at George Bush. They want change. They're voting in the Democratic primary. They want something difference. They don't know what they're going to get, but they know that they're not going to get more of the same.
SWAIN: It has to be about more than replacing George and Laura with Michelle and Barack.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Professor Swain. We have just reported on this broadcast something that many people I think are coming to terms with. One is Senators Obama and Clinton, there is not much dividing the two. They're attacking one another on the least of issues and causes. In the case of NAFTA, Senator Obama suggesting that she is weak on NAFTA, while he acknowledges he'll be just as weak. I mean, at what point do group and identity in politics in this campaign start to move over in favor of real, substantive issues?
SWAIN: Well I wish the African-Americans that are supporting Obama would look at his record on immigration and look at what he's saying. And if they do, they'll see that there is no way that he can accomplish all the things that are promised and at the same time, maintain his position on immigration.
DOBBS: Mark Halperin?
HALPERIN: Lou, one of the reasons that I think our colleagues are too dismissive of Ralph Nader is on many issues, many important issues, he represents the views of tens of millions of Americans, otherwise unrepresented by McCain, Clinton and Obama. Trade and immigration would probably the first two you would name. But there's others as well -- single payer health care, for instance, something lots of Americans would like to see -- not supported by Obama, Clinton or McCain. So I think you're going to see between the two Democrats to the extent that race continues to play out and in the general election. You're going to see a fight over the middle with a lot of dissatisfied people perhaps in the middle and on the left and on the right.
DOBBS: Well I've got to tell you, I want to hear a great fight over the middle because the middle is where most of America lives.
SCHOEN: And Mark Halperin is exactly right. There are 50, 60 percent in the middle who are really angry. There are a lot on the left, 5-7 percent that are angry and respond, as Mark suggests. And there are plenty on the right who are equally angry with John McCain.
DOBBS: We're going to be back with Doug Schoen and Mark Halperin and Professor Carol Swain in just one moment.
And Senator Clinton regretting racially-charged comments made by her husband. What effect will that have on this campaign? I will be talking with radio talk show host Larry Elder as well here as we continue. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: I'm back with Doug Schoen. He's the author of "Declaring Independence." Mark Halperin, author of "The Way to Win." Also a senior political analyst, "Time" magazine in the way of a day job. And Professor Carol Swain, author of "Debating Immigration." Good to have you all back.
At the top of this broadcast, Bill Schneider taking a look at what was happening with the votes in Texas in particular, talking group and identity politics Doug, suggesting that there was in point of fact, you could explain white males voting for Barack Obama in this primary because they're Democrats, saying in point of fact that the reason that that was occurring may have been some basis of sexism because they don't want to vote for a women. I mean this is the root of identity politics. I understand that and that analysis, and I have the greatest respect for Bill Schneider and his analysis is not unlike that being brought to us by analysts across this entire political year.
SWAIN: I think white people are supporting...
DOBBS: ... Go ahead Carol. I was actually talk to Doug Schoen, but that's all right. Go ahead, please.
SWAIN: I think they're supporting Obama because it's an opportunity for them to prove that they're not racist.
DOBBS: Oh, that's an interesting thought.
SCHOEN: I must tell you Lou, I think we've got a lot of anger. We've got African-Americans for Obama, Hispanics who are frankly alienated from frequently African-Americans are going with Clinton in reaction. White females are with Hillary. While males with Obama. This is identity and racial politics. People are divided because the candidates are divided. There aren't really differences on the issues, as you suggest, so they're falling back on ethnic and racial identity as a means of making choices.
DOBBS: But white males are voting for Senator Obama and the fact is, I see to me, there are very positive signs in all of this.
SCHOEN: There are a lot of positive sides and there are a lot of negative sides. They're rejecting Hillary Clinton. They see at least Obama as offering an alternative that rhetorically they can accept. But Lou, there is a lot of anger because there is a lot of frustration that is not being addressed.
HALPERIN: Lou, one think I think you have to remember is that this is not like a laboratory experiment with controlled conditions. Hillary Clinton is not a quote on quote, normal female candidate for a number of reasons. She is a Clinton and that comes with a lot of baggage. She's got a stronger image on national security than I think any of us thought the first female credit presidential candidate would have. And that kind of scrambles things up. And of course early on when she has leading in the polls, she was leading with white men. She was leading with all men. This is a change over time. I don't think it's just identity politics. I think to some extent, Obama has done a good job of getting his message out.
SWAIN: I think also it's part about culture. I have said for a long time that America would elect a black man before a woman of any race.
DOBBS: Really? Why is that?
SWAIN: Because I think that the culture has a lot invested in roles for women and they see women as being subordinate to men and they're not ready for a female commander in chief and it would be a long time before they will be ready.
SCHOEN: I hope Carol Swain is right, but I fear that we're going to see a degree of racial divisiveness in this general election campaign if Barack is the nominee.
DOBBS: Mark, you get the last word.
HALPERIN: The proof that she's right is that "24" has been a more successful show than that Geena Davis show on ABC.
DOBBS: I am going to be thinking about that that for days. Thank you very much, all of you. I am going to hope that you're all wrong. I think this is a lot better country than we're giving our folks credit for being. Thank you very much, Mark. Thank you very much, Professor Swain. Thank you, Doug.
At the top of the hour, the "Election Center" and John Roberts. John, what are you working on?
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much. Coming up at the top of the hour on the "CNN Election Center," Hillary Clinton has gone negative. But will it really help her catch Barack Obama? We are fact checking the claims and counter claims behind all the finger pointing. You're going to want to see what he found out. And John McCain has got second thoughts about some unusually candid straight talk, all coming up at the top of the hour, Lou, on the "Election Center." We'll see you there.
DOBBS: Thank you, John. Up next here, the race card, the race for the White House. The author of the new book "Stupid Black Men" says the Democratic Party wants blacks to focus on white racism. Why? We'll be finding out.
And should bad teachers be fired? A Chicago school system says yes. I will be talking with the president of the Chicago Teachers Union here next about what they're trying to get done. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest now says white racism is not a major problem in this country now. He says anyone who goes to school and stays out of trouble can make it in America. Larry Elder, nationally syndicated radio talk show host and the author of the new book "Stupid Black Men: How to Play the Race Card and Lose." Larry, good to have you here.
LARRY ELDER, AUTHOR: Thanks for having me, Lou, appreciate it.
DOBBS: Let me ask you before we turn specifically to your book. You just heard the conversation almost Mark Halperin and Professor Carol Swain and Doug Schoen on the issue on group and identity politics. Your thoughts?
ELDER: My thought is that racism is not longer a major problem in American anymore and people are voting for Barack Obama for reasons having nothing to do with his race, except for black people. They are identifying with Barack Obama, the same way they did with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when he ran. But as far as whites are concerned, whites are voting for Barack Obama or against him not because he is black. Barack Obama himself said accurately, if I don't get elected president of the United States of America, it won't be because I'm black. It will be because I have not articulated an image or a view that America can embrace. That's where we are right now, Lou, in 2008.
DOBBS: Well right now, he is certainly articulating that vision and managing the best-run campaign of this campaign season.
ELDER: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Let's turn to "Stupid Black Men" and I have heard, it's just provocative, what's Larry Elder really doing here? He's selling books. I didn't hear that, by the way, when Michael Moore wrote a book called "Stupid White Men."
ELDER: Right, and he was everywhere. He was on every major television show. He was everywhere.
My book make the argument again, Lou, that white racism is no longer a major problem in America anymore, but it is in the best, best interest of the Democratic party to convince blacks that racism is a major problem.
That is why you have Hillary Clinton saying of the Republican Congress, they run this place like a plantation - nudge, nudge, wink, wink. That's why you have Barney Frank saying if Republicans were in this hotel, the only blacks would be waiting tables - nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
That's why you've got Charlie Rangel, the head of the House Ways and Means Committee saying Republicans don't say the "N" word or "S" word, a slur for Hispanics anymore. They just say, let's cut taxes.
The message to black people is focus on white racism and we Democrats wear the white hat in that regard and Republicans, the racist party, wears the black hat in that regard. And it's all nonsense. They need that 95 percent monolithic black vote, without which they cannot win at the presidential level.
DOBBS: And that vote right now is going predominantly to, in the Democratic Party, to Senator Barack Obama. While whites are to support your vote, whites are voting for Senator Obama by a majority in nearly every case. I think that says something very healthy about this country, don't you?
ELDER: Absolutely. And remember, blacks were not voting for Barack Obama at first. After they got to know him more, they began to be on the ship. Initially, they were in favor of Senator Clinton. And so were white males and females. But you saw what happened in Wisconsin. Barack Obama was leading in every demo, every economic category, both genders. He has run a campaign that Democrats anyway feel that they can embrace.
DOBBS: And now Senator Obama's campaign upset because traditional Kenyan garb, clad Senator Obama shows up on the Internet. His campaign calls that fear mongering. Frankly to me Larry, it looks like really bad judgment in how to dress no matter where you are. Do you see it as fear mongering?
ELDER: Are you telling us, Lou, you don't have an outfit like that in the your wardrobe to round it out?
DOBBS: I've got to be honest with you, Larry. I look at some of the outfits that President Bush has worn, whether it's in Indonesia. It's tough enough to maintain your dignity in certain circumstances. Tossing it out the window quite voluntarily is an absurdity to me, but that's just my opinion.
ELDER: Politicians wear funny hats, they where funny outfits in order to cater the votes. And if this is what Senator Clinton's campaign is putting out, and they've not owned up to it by the show, it just shows you how desperate she is.
DOBBS: And if she is desperate, why would the Obama campaign call it fear mongering? ELDER: They are responding. You always respond to what you perceive to be an attack, or what you perceive to be something that will be considered to be negative. You don't just let it go. But it's going to be nothing. Just as Bill Clinton tried in South Carolina, he said that you can expect blacks to vote for Barack Obama because they did for Jesse Jackson in '84 and '88. Why? He wanted to portray Barack Obama as the black candidate. He was appealing to what he perceived to be America's inner bigot, and nobody was home. It backfired.
DOBBS: And you have said point black in your book that the race card is no longer a way for anybody to conduct themselves, but race is insinuating itself all around the Democratic presidential nomination contest. Give us your thoughts on how this is going to unfold.
ELDER: Well, I don't think it's going to work. Again, Bill Clinton played the race card in South Carolina. Not only did it not work, Hillary later on had to apologize for that. If you try to portray Barack Obama as somehow unhealthy for the country because he's a black guy, there will be a backlash. Why? Because white racism is no longer a sellable commodity in this country. Thank God, because of all the hard work that men and women have down in this country, not last of whom is Martin Luther King.
We have now arrived at a point where for the most part, if you work hard, get an education, invest in yourself and don't make bad, moral mistakes, you can make it no matter where you start out.
DOBBS: And I would hope that that would be the case. I'm very fearful as you know Larry, personally, that the public education system is disappointing millions of Americans, young Americans. We have so much work to do and we've got so many people talking about everything it seems but the things that really count. And public education to me is sort of the foremost among them domestically.
ELDER: And Lou, I couldn't agree with you more. And if you look at it, what can improve public education? It's competition, vouchers. Who wants vouchers?
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're coming out there with that conservative stuff. I'm the Independent populist, Larry. I've got to stop you.
But the one thing I do want to say is may we get rid of -- I'd like you to have a best seller in your hands, like Michael Moore. But let's not - I'd like to reach the point where we can put quotation marks around stupid, black man or white man, whoever it is. We can't afford any more stupidity in this country. Let's hope we're at the end of that era.
ELDER: I think we already are.
DOBBS: Thank you Larry. Great talking to you, much luck with the book, "Stupid, Black Men," Larry Elder.
We'll be right back with much more. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We'd hope to be speaking with Marilyn Stewart right now, the Chicago public school system. Unfortunately, the fact is we've got some technical problems between here and Chicago and for that, we apologize to you and to Marilyn Stewart. We will ask her to come back at her earliest convenience.
And tonight's poll question, the answers are very, very overwhelming, if you can be overwhelmed by very - 86 percent of you do not believe any of the leading presidential candidates has a record of putting American workers first when it comes to trade policy, and you would be correct.
Time now for e-mail. Sharon in Pennsylvania: "Lou, where are all the environmentalists on the NAFTA superhighway? They were there for the border fence, where are they now?
I think that's one of the best questions in a long time about where are the environmentalists.
Lois in Pennsylvania: "Well Lou, I finally did it. I am a proud Independent. Keep up the good work."
You too, thank you.
Dane in Arizona: "You've convinced me to become Independent, and I have. Thanks for your insight."
And we thank you for joining the ranks of Independent Americans. We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. And each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit." We thank you for being with us tonight and we ask you to join us tomorrow. For all of us here, good night from New York. The "Election Center" with John Roberts starts right now.
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