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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Clinton and Obama Slug it Out; Race and Politics; Mayday Protests are Planned; New Charges of China Spying; War on the Middle Class, Little Help for Homeowners; Whose Side is Henry Paulson On?; Rhode Island Cracks Down on Illegal Aliens; Real I.D. Backlash, South Carolina Says No to Real I.D.

Aired April 03, 2008 - 19:00   ET


LOU DOBBS, HOST: Suzanne, I have a lot of fun with those babbling sounds from time to time myself. Thank you.
Tonight, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and the Bush administration strongly defending that $30-billion bailout of Wall Street, but offer nothing to middle class families in danger of losing their homes, sounds like business as usual in our nation's capital. We'll have that report.

And stunning new charges that communist China is trying to steal American technology and U.S. military secrets, is anyone in Washington beginning at least to pay attention? We'll have the story for you.

And the illegal alien, open borders amnesty lobby, well they're at it again, they're really at it again defying of course the will of the American people on the issue of amnesty playing the race card in some cases.

And San Francisco's mayor, one of my very favorite people, Gavin Newsom, attacking me for opposing illegal immigration. I'm sorry, Mr. Mayor, it's just one of those days. By the way, it seems a number of people want to attack me. We'll have those attacks, all the day's news and much more straight ahead here tonight.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Thursday, April 3. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.

Senator Clinton today asserted she has absolutely no attention of quitting the presidential campaign. Clinton emphatically declared she can win the Democratic nomination and the general election.

Meanwhile, church leaders in Chicago today tried to it appears end the controversy over Senator Obama's former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright. Those church leaders demanding what they called an honest conversation about race, but they declined to criticize Reverend Wright's comments or in any way to distance themselves from him.

We have extensive coverage tonight of this presidential campaign. We begin tonight with Candy Crowley in Chicago.

Candy, Senator Clinton on the offense today. What is her strategy here?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well her strategy in the short-term is to try to win big in Pennsylvania. She wants to then use that victory to propel herself into Indiana, into North Carolina, and North Carolina at least to bring down what now is a double-digit lead for Barack Obama.

What she's trying to do is at the end of this process, and that will be June, is to be at least close to him in pledged delegates, to be able to argue to those superdelegates that she's the most electable.


SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have consistently made the case that I can win, because I believe I can win. Sometimes people draw the conclusion I'm saying somebody else can't win. I can win. I know I can win. That's why I do this every day. And that's what my campaign is about. I'm in it to win it.


CROWLEY: Now, in that press conference, Clinton also said that she believes that she can win Pennsylvania despite the advantages that Barack Obama has. It was sort of a pre-victory kind of statement by saying, look, despite the fact that Barack Obama has more money, despite the fact that he's putting more ads up in Pennsylvania, if she can win, she can make that argument. And certainly, we can tell you, Lou, that Barack Obama is still raking in the money, $40 million in March compared to Hillary Clinton's about $20 million, at least according to sources in her campaign.

DOBBS: Am I correct -- is that amount just about $170 million, almost $200 million that Senator Obama's raised so far?

CROWLEY: Over $200 million, actually. It's astonishing. Both of them are --


DOBBS: I dropped a $50 million pocket there somewhere. That's incredible.

CROWLEY: Yes, it's pretty amazing. Yes, I know it really is. And I mean -- you know, he has now surpassed John Kerry's fund-raising in his primary. So -- and that was a record, so it keeps on going.

DOBBS: Absolutely. Candy, church leaders, as you know, in Chicago today, it's not entirely clear what they were trying to do, but it did seem they were trying to shift the agenda away from Senator Obama's controversial former pastor, Jeremiah Wright.

Do you think by any stretch of the imagination they succeed today? CROWLEY: I think there are two different things going on here. I think with Pastor Wright, that controversy is bound to keep coming up, particularly if more video is found, particularly when you get into the general election of Barack Obama is the nominee for the Democratic Party. But I think that the gist of this news conference, Lou, was to try to get reporters off the back of this particular church.

They've had threats to the church, so they brought in other churches in this particular denomination and said listen, you know our members are being harassed. Apparently reporters were sitting on pews in Sunday and handing out their business cards --


CROWLEY: That kind of thing.

DOBBS: Can you believe it? I mean I cannot imagine reporters doing what they were accusing them of doing. Obviously, it happened, absolutely disgusting behavior.

CROWLEY: Yes. I mean, there's ways to go about it...

DOBBS: Right.

CROWLEY: ... and there's ways to go about it. So I really feel that this church -- and mind you, Jeremiah Wright is no longer the pastor at that church. He's retired. So this particular church is trying to kind of separate themselves and say listen, you know we need to get back to what we do, and we really want our church to kind of -- to move away from these reporters and all of this focus because it's really beginning to bother the parishioners.

DOBBS: And then they throw out the date of May 18, let's talk about race, for crying out loud. I don't know if they're being consulted by a crisis management consultant or firm, but, man, I don't know that that firm would want that name released if they are.

Candy, thank you very much. Candy Crowley.


DOBBS: Joining me now, two of the best political analysts in the entire country, Keith Richburg, he's the New York bureau chief for "The Washington Post" --

Keith, good to have you with us.

-- and Julie Roginsky, she's a Democratic strategist.

Julie, thank you for being with us.


DOBBS: You just heard Candy talk about this press conference this afternoon. I mean I literally cannot imagine why they would -- I can understand them wanting to reclaim their church from these idiot journalists who would infiltrate their church, if you will, and confront the parishioners or the churchgoers, but what in the world is with these press conferences and creating these dates.

I mean, what's your reaction?

ROGINSKY: Yes, you know I agree with you. I would have had a press conference if they felt the need to have one. They are being harassed and they had an article in "The New York Times" yesterday, the United (ph) Church of Christ, the entire church, not this particular parish, but saying, look, leave us alone, we are an inclusive church.

But that's fine. That's great if they had left it at that. To continue the dialogue and to continue this conversation only invites the kind of attention they claim they don't want, so you're right.

I would say they had their press conference, enough is enough, move on. They should go back to being the church that they are and stop getting themselves involved in the political process.

DOBBS: Is it possible -- and I'd love to -- Keith, for you to weigh in on this as well. Did it seem confrontational, that ad, on the part of the church? I mean it seemed like they were sort of looking for trouble in tone to me, at least.

ROGINSKY: That ad in "The New York Times"?

DOBBS: Right.

ROGINSKY: No, actually I thought it was a pretty good ad. Because I think it went to show that they weren't just a particular church that was aligned with a particular point of view, in this case, Reverend Wright's point of view. They went out of their way to say they have defendants (ph) going back to the Mayflower, which makes them looks a lot more than just a black church. Made them look at the very sort of inclusive, multi-ethnic, (INAUDIBLE) multi-ethnic church.

DOBBS: Which I think they certainly are.

ROGINSKY: Which I think they certainly are, so I think they were trying to explain themselves and saying look, the impression you may have of us because of one particular pastor's comment is not the totality of what our church represents.

DOBBS: Keith?

KEITH RICHBURG, "WASHINGTON POST": That's exactly right. I mean their view is that this whole thing has become a bit of a cartoon or a parody. And they always say, you've taken snippets of what Reverend Wright said and replayed those over and over again, that's not the totality of the man. But they really would like to get the focus off of them and get it back on to the campaign again --

DOBBS: Or back to Reverend Wright. RICHBURG: Or back to Reverend Wright, who is no longer with them, but also they didn't distance themselves. They can't. I mean he was there for 20 years. He's a staple there and I think the streets in front of the church is named after him, so they're in a difficult position. They don't want to distance themselves from their longtime pastor, but they want the press to say, focus on Obama and Clinton, not on us.

DOBBS: Well, Keith and Julie will rejoin us here in the broadcast. We're going to have much more on this peculiar -- I think it's fair to say -- peculiar presidential campaign we're having this year.

Also ahead, new charges that communist China has a tremendous spying operation in the United States.

Christine Romans will have our report -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, a Chicago woman has been indicted on charges she stole telecommunication secrets and tried to smuggle them to China. The latest on what espionage experts fear is the wholesale theft of American technology secrets -- Lou.

DOBBS: Communist China, there's a reason we use that term on this broadcast. Christine, we look forward to your report.

And some members of the pro-amnesty lobby are playing the race card, illegal alien supporter and Mayor Gavin Newsom (ph) of San Francisco attacking me for my opposition to illegal immigration.


MAYOR GAVIN NEWSOM, SAN FRANCISCO: And on cable TV where careers are literally being saved and salvaged, like Lou Dobbs.


DOBBS: We'll have that story and more straight ahead. Stay with us.


DOBBS: New attacks tonight by some open border advocates and pro-amnesty groups suggesting that immigration enforcement is racially motivated. These groups are apparently planning a new round of mayday protests around the country because government is trying to enforce law. Of course, those protests will be taking place in, amongst other places, Los Angeles, California. Last year's marches in L.A. ended in confrontation with the police.

Casey Wian has our report.


CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Last May 1st, thousands of pro-illegal alien amnesty activists marched in Los Angeles. Rallies ended in a violent confrontation with police. This May 1st, amnesty proponents are coming back for more.

ANGELINA CORONA, HERMANDAD MEXICANA NACIONAL: We're organizing our people to participate in the march. We are calling the Spanish- speaking immigrants for action.

WIAN: And calling immigration law enforcement racially motivated.

JUAN JOSE GUTIERREZ, LATINO MOVEMENT USA: It's unconscionable that now that you have a majority of immigrants that are nonwhite to reject them and to condemn them to the role of modern-day slaves in 21st century America. We are not going to stop until we get comprehensive immigration reform, which means granting legalization to the 12 or more million undocumented workers in America.

WIAN: A New York-based pro-illegal alien group is demanding that Amtrak and Greyhound begin warning passengers they could be inspected by immigration authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: Transportation, not deportation!

WIAN: They also want refunds for passengers who are deported.

MARIA MUENTES, FAMILIES FOR FREEDOM: I'm here today to demand that Amtrak stop collaborating with immigration and laying a trap for immigrants.

WIAN: Amtrak says it will continue to cooperate, not collaborate with Customs and Border Protections random inspections. Greyhound says it is under no obligation to inform customers of law enforcement actions. In San Francisco, city officials are spending more than 80,000 taxpayer dollars on an advertising campaign to publicize the city's status as a sanctuary for illegal aliens.

MAYOR GAVIN NEWSOM, SAN FRANCISCO: We have been very concerned in the last year and a half or two years with the renewed vigor by the federal government and ICE to adopt more aggressive strategies for immigration raids. We are very concerned about a lot of the language, the incendiary language that has been used in the last number of years, both in Congress and on right wing radio, and on cable TV, where careers are literally being saved and salvaged, like Lou Dobbs.


WIAN: And Lou, you might be interested to know that Mayor Newsom reportedly is considering a run for governor in 2010. It raises the question, does he plan to make all of California a sanctuary state -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well there are those of course, as you know Casey, who would suggest that California is a sanctuary state.

WIAN: We still have cities in this state that do try to help the feds enforce immigration laws. They're few and far between, but they're here. DOBBS: I understand. And it's appropriate and important to acknowledge them as exceptions to what I think is a California rule, is it not?

WIAN: Absolutely.

DOBBS: Well while Mayor Newsom was taking shots at me, I have to say, Casey, he's done this -- we counted up -- I think the number he has declared -- whenever he's sort of, I guess, feeling wistful and neglected by the media, he declares again that San Francisco is a sanctuary city. He's done this -- do you have the count? I think it's something like...

WIAN: Yeah, we counted. Since 2006, including this latest declaration, nine times is what we've counted. You know, and this is just taking it a step farther, actually spending taxpayer money to promote the fact that San Francisco is not going to do anything about illegal immigration. Apparently, you know all of the legal residents and the U.S. citizens in San Francisco have all the social services they need, because the city has plenty of money to promote this for illegal aliens -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well the mayor is suggesting -- and by the way, that comment he made, I think the mayor really -- it's unfortunate. And I'm very concerned, the mayor said he was concerned -- I'm very concerned that he's not being fair and frank and fully disclosing what he's doing here. He did not give credit Casey Wian to Geraldo Rivera (ph), whose charges he was repeating there, and I think that that just shows a lack of originality on the part of Mayor Newsom. That is just -- I think it's regrettable, don't you?

WIAN: Absolutely. And there's a lot -- there's a lack of originality throughout this pro-amnesty movement. They're talking about immigrants. They're not talking about illegal aliens...

DOBBS: I love the fact that the group there -- and you'll have to refresh me. I don't remember the name of the group. They're demanding that they be given citizenship in this country. Just completely obviating any suggestion that of course it's a privilege to be a citizen of this country and that it is a matter of public policy decision in this country by our lawfully elected government. I mean, what was that group again?

WIAN: Yeah, that particular group is Latino Movement USA. They're just one of several pro-amnesty groups that believe that you know breaking the law...

DOBBS: Right.

WIAN: ... allows you a ticket to U.S. citizenship.

DOBBS: Well, if anyone wanted to stop absolutely any suggestion of amnesty, they would allow that group to continue to make those kinds of statements, because they're just about as ignorant and arrogant as you possibly could be at a time when we need to be reasoning about first border security, establishing border and port security, and then discussing at some point after that security is established what our public policy will be on immigration. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, Casey Wian.

While Mayor Newsom was attacking me, taking a shot at me over on the West Coast, I was also being attacked -- well, relatively nicely, on the East Coast from none other than Senator Bob Menendez, who was restating his support for again so-called comprehensive immigration reform. You thought it had died.

That's what some folks want you to think. Senator Menendez and Mexico's ambassador to the United States speaking before a pro-amnesty group today in Washington. Senator Menendez was asked about media influence over government strategies dealing with illegal immigration, enforcement, and border security.


SEN. BOB MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: Not only can you be swatted down by a newspaper, but by Lou Dobbs. So I...




DOBBS: Well, Senator Menendez, I love you too, and you're welcome to join us here on this broadcast at any time to talk about, well, certainly, immigration, illegal immigration, and border security, and some reason and the rule of law, of course, as well.

Coming up next, shocking new charges that communist China has an extensive spy network in this country. We'll have that special report. And the Senate's mortgage relief plan. It starts with Bear Stearns and then -- and then it doesn't do much. We'll have that special report and a great deal more coming up here next. Stay with us. We'll be right back.


DOBBS: A former engineer has been indicted on charges that she stole U.S. telecommunication secrets and then tried to smuggle them out of this country to communist China. These charges come just days after a Pentagon official pleaded guilty in a Chinese spy case, and a month after a Chinese-born engineer was sentenced in another espionage case. Christine Romans has our report.


ROMANS (voice-over): It was a random customs search at O'Hare Airport, authorities say that uncovered a Chicago software engineer's alleged plot to smuggle trade secrets to China. (INAUDIBLE) Jin (ph) with a one-way ticket to Beijing told Customs authorities she had $10,000 in her carry-on. Instead, officers found $30,000, and in her possession, more than 1,000 documents, many containing trade secrets. U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald identified Jin's (ph) employer in the indictment only as company "A," a telecom company based in suburban Chicago.

But that company is widely believed to be Motorola and an online search shows a woman by Jin's (ph) name was an employee. A Motorola spokeswoman said, "The company does not comment on pending prosecutions or ongoing governmental investigations."

The FBI affidavit says the research and development spent on the information in Jin's (ph) possession exceeded $600 million. Over the past year, counterintelligence officials and China watchers have publicly warned that China's spying has become a threat to U.S. technology.

MICHAEL PILLSBURY, FORMER SR. PENTAGON OFFICIAL: So, these, what appear to be minor espionage cases actually are part of a much broader national strategy China talks openly about. That they want to be the world's number one economy.

ROMANS: The Chinese government has denied it conducts espionage in the United States. Earlier this week, a former Pentagon official pleaded guilty in an espionage case linked to China. And last month engineer Chi Mak (ph) was sentenced to 24 years in prison for trying to pass sensitive military information to China.


ROMANS: As for the Jin (ph) case, the U.S. attorney's office says she is free now on $50,000 bond and has turned in her passport. The U.S. attorney says she will be arraigned, Lou, April 9th.

DOBBS: This is incredible, what continues to go on. We've known that there are over 3,000 Chinese front companies operating in this country for years now. There is no surprise here. Is it possible -- is it possible that the U.S. Justice Department, the FBI, simply lacked the resources and because of the political position of this administration, the political will to carry out appropriate investigation and enforcement?

ROMANS: One of the things that Michael Pillsbury, the former Defense Department official that we spoke to today said -- he said there has been a lack of will over the past 35 years actually. There's been a view from Washington that China's our friend and that our technology is available for the Chinese, and so that makes it less important in these sort of cases. But he is noting an increased interest in counterterrorism -- in counterintelligence officials to try to fix this.

DOBBS: An increased interest?

ROMANS: He's hoping that these most recent cases...

DOBBS: Unbelievable.

ROMANS: ... show that there is a move afoot to really sort of crack down on these, what look like small individual cases, but taken altogether, it's how the intelligence is gathered. DOBBS: The reality of what communist China is doing is so apparent, we have been reporting on this broadcast for at least four years on this very issue. And for the federal government, this administration, this president, this Congress, this executive branch not to fulfill its responsibilities -- I mean this is -- everyone watching this broadcast tonight and listening to you should -- I mean they should be deeply, profoundly concerned.

ROMANS: Six hundred million dollars was the value of the research and development of all the things that the affidavit, the indictment say was on these you know -- on these drives and on these tapes and on these other things. And it was caught in a random Customs interview...

DOBBS: God bless the Customs folks.

ROMANS: ... you know at Chicago O'Hare, that's right, a random interview at O'Hare.

DOBBS: This is -- this is unbelievable. This president keeps -- you know I shouldn't say he keeps, I think he's quit talking about his legacy, but this certainly will be part of that legacy. Christine Romans, thank you very much.

Well time now for our poll. The question is do you think the U.S. government and corporate America have underestimated, perhaps, the threat posed by communist China? Yes or no? Cast your vote at We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.

Let's take a look now at some of your thoughts. Duane in Florida saying, "Lou, in the old days spying on the United States was punishable by death. How do these new spies, even in the Pentagon, get only a jail sentence?" Well, you see it's a new world. It's a globalized economy and it's one big, happy world.

Ron in Florida -- I'm just kidding -- Ron in Florida, "Dear Lou, to sum it up, thank you. This is coming from a Democratic household from Florida that's changing its affiliation to Independent. We appreciate your views on the state of this year's Democratic primary. It is a sham and a travesty. You, sir, are the only one who has had the nerve to stand up and say so." Well, I hope some other people will, because the Democrats in Florida, Democrats in Michigan should not be disenfranchised by the people who have the willful temerity to call themselves leaders of your party.

We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast. And each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Independents Day". Please join me on the radio afternoons Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show". Go to to find the local listings for "The Lou Dobbs Show".

And up next here, rising anger over the government bailout of Wall Street, while millions of Americans face the prospect of losing their homes to foreclosure. We'll have that report.

And Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson goes to Beijing to criticize our financial system and praise that of communist China.

And I'll be talking with Governor Mark Sanford (ph) of South Carolina who poses a critically important law to protect our national security, the Real ID Act. We'll be talking about that and more. Stay with us. We're coming right back.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke today defended the government's $30 billion bailout of Bear Stearns, the country's fifth largest investment bank. Chairman Bernanke faced tough questioning from members of the Senate Banking Committee, but critics outside congress say the senate's plan also does more for business than for working men and women and their families.

Lisa Sylvester has our report from Washington.


LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: For sale signs, homes in foreclosure, worried middle class families. Critics say the senate's new housing bill isn't a help to middle class families, it's a corporate giveaway.

TERRANCE O'SULLIVAN, LABORERS' INTL. UNION OF N. AMERICA: This is a government handout to corporate home builders who have created this crisis through their mortgage subsidiaries and now like pigs at the trough, they're looking for billions of dollars in government handouts.

SYLVESTER: The bill is expected to cost $15 billion. 40 percent of that goes for corporate tax rebates to homebuilders and investment banks. The plan does include $4 billion for communities to buy distressed properties, offers $100 million for homeowner counseling, and allows states to offer bonds to help homeowners with subprime loans refinance.

But some congressional members say it's not enough and point to the recent bailout of financial giant Bear Stearns.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Everyone agrees that Bear Stearns was staring into the abyss. What about homeowners who are also staring into the abyss?

SYLVESTER: Federal Reserve Chair Ben Bernanke in a hearing justified the quick action to save the financial firm from collapse, saying the fallout could have been severe and far-reaching. But worried homeowners are also looking for relief from the federal government and not finding it, which could be a factor in the November elections.

ANDREW JAKABOVICS, CTR. FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: This will be a litmus test for people to basically go back to their representatives, go back to their senators, and even potentially go back to the presidential candidates and say, look, this is what you were saying back in the spring and where are the benefits that were promised? And they may hold them accountable, I think.

SYLVESTER: As more homeowners lose their houses, more congressional members could lose their jobs.


SYLVESTER: An amendment was offered by Democrats that would have allowed bankruptcy judges to change the terms of subprime mortgages to help keep people in their homes. That provision was supported by housing advocates, but it was defeated this afternoon.


DOBBS: Well, the senate's not doing such a charming job, the house not getting it done. Democratic leadership in both houses. This is nuts. $30 billion put up against the bailout of Bear Stearns, and how much for homeowners in this country facing a quarter of a trillion dollars in losses?

SYLVESTER: They have gotten almost no relief. And everyone was counting on looking at this bipartisan bill that they were talking about. They unveiled this bill and what did they see? It was corporate giveaways, it was benefits to the home builders, and very little in there, Lou, for actual homeowners.

DOBBS: Well, I hope that there are at least enough people of conscious in the United States senate to stand up and say, this doesn't make any sense. Whether -- I mean, it's just unbelievable that we're in this position. I say that it seems every night. But in this case, we're talking about real pain for 2 million Americans, 1 million over the next four months who are facing the loss of their homes.

And for this -- you know, I've said for some time, the greatest crisis in this country is simply the fact that the majority is ignored in Washington, D.C. the middle class has no representation. But if we don't return this country and this government to a ruling majority, we've lost our democracy. Hopefully something will happen here.

Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester, reporting from Washington.

Well, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, he wasn't giving testimony on congress today. He was in Beijing. Secretary Paulson, as you know, is not one of my favorite people. There in Beijing, he said our mortgage crisis has no doubt given the communist Chinese government, as he put it, pause on the issue of economic reforms and market economies. Paulson also praised China for what he said significant progress on currency reform.

Kitty Pilgrim has our report.


KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: In Beijing, a preliminary meeting in advance of trade negotiations in Washington in June. His mission was to pressure the Chinese into trade reform, but Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson leveled criticism at the U.S. financial system, saying the subprime mortgage crisis in the United States had no doubt given the Chinese "pause" about instituting their own reforms.

U.S. economists are outraged, the treasury secretary, instead of sticking up for Americans, would give the Chinese more excuses to backslide on currency reform and fair trade.

ALAN TONELSON, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: U.S. workers really don't seem to be on Secretary Paulson's mind whatever. If they were, he wouldn't be helping the Chinese to manufacture excuses for their continued go-slow policy on currency revaluation. Secretary Paulson seems to be more concerned with the well being of the Chinese can economy than with the well being of the American domestic economy.

PILGRIM: Paulson noted the recent gains in the Chinese currency, which has risen about 20 percent since 2002 and about 4 percent this year. But by most U.S. estimates, the currency is still grossly unvalued, giving Chinese manufacturers an unfair advantage in U.S. markets. Imported Chinese products are artificially cheap, driving U.S. producers out of business.

GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "THE COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA": Paulson going to China and saying they shouldn't reform, he can understand why they might not, is certainly moving not only China, but the rest of the global financial system backwards.

PILGRIM: China needs to keep its currency low, especially in the event of an U.S. economic slowdown to maintain its huge volume of exports to the United States and to keep Chinese workers on the job.


PILGRIM: Secretary Paulson said, I think the biggest threat to more reform in China is the strong domestic Chinese industry that doesn't want competition. So it's really an outrage that he gave the Chinese an excuse to backslide on reform, Lou.

DOBBS: This administration, this economic team lead by Secretary Paulson, as I have said here since basically he took office, this is a joke. It's a joke on the American worker. And there's nothing funny about it.

PILGRIM: It certainly is a strong negotiating position today.

DOBBS: Oh, I mean -- and he ran Goldman Sachs. I've got to tell you, running Goldman Sachs must be a heck of a lot easier than it once was given the talent we're seeing express itself from the executive suite there.

Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim.

Up next, do you ever feel like you're a day when, well, some people just sort of want to aggravate you? I've been having sort of that kind of day today. I'll tell you about it here later.

And we'll have the latest on states rebelling against the real I.D. act. Not so smart in my opinion. Governor Mark Sanford of South Carolina says it is smart. He's one of the real I.D. law's most prominent opponents. We'll be talking.

And Governor Don Carcieri of Rhode Island join us. His state is cracking down on illegal immigration. A bumper sticker there that says, if you're in this country illegally, you're in this country illegally. Imagine that.

We'll be right back.


DOBBS: Rhode Island, the latest state to take action in the fight against illegal immigration. Last week, Governor Don Carcieri signed an executive order that requires employers who do business with the state to verify the legal status of their employees. It also gives state law enforcement the authority to fine and deport illegal aliens.

Governor Carcieri joins me now from Providence.

Governor, good to have you with us.

GOV. DONALD CARCIERI (R), RHODE ISLAND: Thank you very much. Great to be here, Lou.

DOBBS: Governor, why was this necessary for you to draft and to issue an executive order?

CARCIERI: Well frankly, because congress isn't acting. As you know, last year it looked like there might be some action. It didn't happen. Now there's nothing happening.

At the end of the day, the states and governors around the country are bearing the burden, and our citizens, hard-working citizens are bearing the burden. We're seeing it in our hospitals, we're seeing it in our schools, we're seeing it in our prisons, in all the social service agencies.

So if congress isn't going to move, and the reason I'm on here tonight, because I know this is an issue you care about.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

CARCIERI: We've got to get that issue to congress. They need to act and move on this.

DOBBS: Well, maybe you can say that again. Because you know that the amnesty advocates, open advocates, those supporting illegal immigration say there is no cost to social services, medical services, education, incarceration for illegal aliens and that they are a net benefit to our society.

CARCIERI: Well, I think they're entirely wrong. When I look at our little state, and when I see what's happening in our schools and the influx in our schools and in our hospitals, our law enforcement, it's crystal clear the impact that illegal immigration is having. And we need to deal with that.

And if congress isn't going to do, I feel as a governor, I'm responsible for enacting and following the laws of our state and our nation.

DOBBS: Well, we -- as you know, more than 40 religious leaders in Rhode Island are criticizing your plan and Rabbi Alan Fram, the president of Rhode Island's Board of Rabbis sent us a statement saying, "These are clearly challenging times for a state, but it is crucial that Rhode Island not institute fundamentally flawed immigration policy as a response to our economic woes."

What is your reaction?

CARCIERI: Well, I understand the rabbi, the pastors, the bishops, they've got a role in the pastoral ministry, if you will Lou, in what they do, but my role is different. And it's not fundamentally flawed. It's the law of the land. My grandparents immigrated here from Italy and Sweden. They came here legally. Many people are doing this today. But this is about illegal immigration and putting in place common sense practices that I believe will begin to get control of this in our state.

DOBBS: And that control, you think, will be assumed by when?

CARCIERI: Well, it's going to take time. As you indicated, we're putting in place and making sure any employer doing business with the state is checking the status of their employees, but we're also enacting an agreement with our Department of Corrections with I.C.E. to make sure people that have committed a crime are here illegally, that are in our prison, that when they come out, that they're deported. There are a number of these processes that I think are common sense things.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

Well Governor, the idea that this is necessary for a state is disgusting to me. It should have been handled responsibly by a president, well, two presidents in a row, who have refused to enforce both border security, port security, and illegal immigration.

Are you hopeful at all that we're going to see something change?

CARCIERI: Well, the reason I'm on tonight, Lou, is that this is a message that has to go across the country.

I know I just came back from the National Governor's Association a few weeks ago. It's the topic amongst the governors. Because we're all having to deal with this, and our citizens, our hard-working tax- paying citizens are the ones that are bearing the cost of this. Congress has got to move.

DOBBS: Is business in Rhode Island falling in line with this order? Do you expect them to be supportive or do you consider - do you expect them to continue just to flop the law and to continue to hire illegally? CARCIERI: I'm hopeful. We're going to put it in place for anybody doing business with the state that they have to certify that they have not employed or do not have in their employ an illegal immigrant. In fact, there's a bill before our legislature to require all of the employers in our state to do likewise. I support that.

DOBBS: Well, Governor, thank you very much. We appreciate you being here.

CARCIERI: My pleasure, Lou. Stay on it.

DOBBS: Guaranteed. Governor Don Carcieri, we appreciate it.

Up at top of the hour, "ELECTION CENTER" and Campbell Brown.

Campbell, tell us all about it.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: We've got a lot of ground to cover in the "ELECTION CENTER" tonight, Lou.

The $20 million woman takes a new swing at the $40 million man. Those are the latest fund-raising numbers. We're going to tell you why Hillary Clinton is calling Barack Obama timid.

And, get this, she said it again, that there is no such thing as a pledged delegate and that she's going to fight all the way to the convention.

We've got all the news and see you at the top of the hour, Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, Campbell. It's amazing that we even have to discuss whether or not candidates will complete campaign, but there it is. Thank you, Campbell.

BROWN: You bet.

DOBBS: The Department of Homeland Security has granted all 50 states and the District of Columbia now an extension to comply with the real I.D. program, but South Carolina is one of several states that simply want no part of real I.D.

Governor Mark Sanford joins me from Columbia, South Carolina.

Governor, good to have you with us.

GOV. MARK SANFORD (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: My pleasure to be with you.

DOBBS: Governor, it's a federal law. Why would you not want to comply?

SANFORD: Well, I think the most American of all themes is this idea that we may come from different perspectives, we may come from different points of view, but at the end of the day we debate ideas in America, and based on that debate, law becomes indeed the law of the land. What you have here is a law that was never debated in congress. There were never hearings held in the house, never hearings held in the senate. And you had simply a bill that was attached as a rider to an emergency supplemental bill to help tsunami victims in Southeast Asia and military folks in the Middle East.

DOBBS: I take your point. But you wouldn't deny that it's the law of the land.

SANFORD: Well, it is. But it's got a number of different foibles. Among them, it's a huge unfunded mandate to every state and every individual out there --

DOBBS: Well, if it were funded -- by the way, I happen to agree with you. It is an unfunded mandate. And to that degree and in that regard, I think there are certainly -- reasonable objections can be raised.

But if the federal government were to fund the expense and the cost of real I.D., would you then be in favor of real I.D.?

SANFORD: I would still have problems with it.

DOBBS: See, there we go.

SANFORD: Because I think that states are perfectly capable of issuing driver's licenses. And if there are a couple laggards, you can provide incentives to those laggard states rather than nationalizing the driver's license process in America.

DOBBS: Here's the deal --

SANFORD: I think that -- sure.

DOBBS: Here's the deal. We've got a number of states, for example, Maine, there's no residency requirement for welfare, for a host of services. There is no requirement residency for a driver's license. We have now -- that's gone from eight now down to four states. The trend is going in the right direction as people are becoming more responsible.

We have to have standards for national security reasons. Don't you agree?

SANFORD: You can have a standard, but you don't have to have a mandate. You don't have to have the federal government taking over this function. You don't have to have for the first time in American history an I.D. card basically issued by the federal government to visit your congressman or senator, which would be the case with the real I.D.

I think that there are a lot of questions about a national I.D. card that ought to be debated. And this whole nation that we're going to dictate from Washington, D.C., without debate an idea that was never able to pass muster within the halls of congress without slipping it in as a rider, I think, is problematic. And I think, particularly, given the money trains in Washington, D.C., their idea now is to pass the bill to individuals and to states, in this case to the tune of somewhere between $23 billion and $29 billion, again I think, really wanting.

DOBBS: You know what? I happen to agree -- be one of those people that agrees with you about dialogue and debate, but I'm also a fellow that likes to know what the real issue. And the real issue is, if it's state control of your driver's license and a refusal to take national security issues into context and into consideration, you know that's a hard one to push through in this era where everybody's taking their shoes off at the dog gone airport to have somebody wave a wand over them.

SANFORD: But again the issue here is real I.D. You have a whole number of costs and hoops that citizens in America would have to contend with it.

It has no jurisdiction over a foreign passport. So the idea that a terrorist is going through the hoops involved with real I.D. when they can go to a third world country and get a passport and come to this nation on that basis doesn't make sense.

Or for that matter that the ninth circuit court has now ruled that you basically need a pat down search and no identification whatsoever to get on an airplane --

DOBBS: Forgive me, Governor, as far as I'm concerned, the ninth circuit court can slip into the Pacific Ocean. It's liberal radical to the extreme that I think it would nauseate even you, sir.

SANFORD: I'm not disagreeing.

DOBBS: OK, so let's return to reality here. How about this? What about if we decided in this country we're going to have a nation has an absolute commitment to individual rights, freedom.


DOBBS: We're going to possess and preserve our national heritage and our national values, the quality and individual liberty. And we're going to secure our borders so that people within those borders don't have to go through a pat down and an electronic search every time, because we know who's coming into this country and we know what is happening with our citizens.

SANFORD: I'd say amen. I'd say amen.

DOBBS: Then amen, brother.

SANFORD: You would begin with -- you would begin with have the federal government take care of, indeed, their responsibilities, which is indeed, securing the borders and things like that.

The idea of stepping in and nationalizing the driver's license system so that you've got to walk around with a national I.D. card. And for the first time, to visit so much as a member of the congress, house, or senate, you've got to walk in with that real I.D. card, to me to be a breach of what the founding fathers talked about in your ability to address your congressman or senator without the card.

DOBBS: I think you and I can agree on a whole lot.

I do, however, think that one of the little issues we've got is we've got a number of states who haven't got the sense to secure their driver's licenses, and that's a problem.

And we've got a huge problem with fraudulent documents in this country. That's an issue for a host of reasons. It's great to have you on the show.

SANFORD: As well and I want to come back to that.

DOBBS: Take 15 seconds real quick and wrap it up, if you will. Can you do it in 15?

SANFORD: The question would be, yes, would documents be more secure in a one stop shopping to hackers around the world in Washington or spread across 50 different states? I think they'll be more secure spread across 50 different states.

DOBBS: Let's have the debate, get it wrapped up, because national security is at stake.

And by the way, there's a little thing also at stake here called our national values above liberty and equality. Governor, thanks for getting here. Let's get that debate underway. Oh, that's what you're doing. Thanks.

Up next, I'm having -- people are picking on me. I'll have a few thoughts about some of my most recent and best critics.

And later, Senator Hillary Clinton asserts she can win the Democratic nomination. She denies ever saying Barack Obama can't win. We'll examine that carefully.

Stay with us.


DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts in the country, here in New York with me, New York bureau chief, "Washington Post," Keith Richburg, Democratic strategist, Julie Roginsky. And in our D.C. bureau, professor Vanderbilt University Law School and contributor to LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, Carol Swain.

Professor, good to have you with us, even if it's way down there. Carol, let me start with you. This race where Senator Clinton is denying she ever said Senator Obama couldn't win, but says she can win, I mean, is this going to get even more puerile in your opinion than this current level or are we going to see new depths reached?

PROF. CAROL SWAIN, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Well, I don't see how we could go any lower, so I'm hoping that it comes to an end and comes to an end swiftly and painlessly.

DOBBS: Well, Julie, you're the expert. Guide us through this.

JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Lou, I'm in politics, I'll tell you, you can always go lower. There's never a bottom line here.

DOBBS: Keith, if we continue at this rate, we have -- we still have Obama's church out saying that they're going to talk race, they're going to do all sorts of things. We've got Bill Clinton and Bill Richardson saying that one said this, the other said that. They're denying what was said and what was promised. What's going on?

KEITH RICHBURG, WASHINGTON POST: It's just going on and on and on. Obama said it's like a movie that's gone a half hour too long. One of his aides said this thing is starting to feel like a hostage crisis. The only difference is in a hostage crisis, you can usually negotiate a surrender.

DOBBS: There is one thing I like to remind the little darlings as they complain about the length of this movie, they're the ones that signed up for the movies, they're the ones that want to be the leaders of the free world, and they're the ones that have the arrogance, the impudence, the imperiousness to suggest that they are qualified, somehow, to lead 300 million Americans. And now we're supposed to worry about whether the little darlings think it's going a little bit long. I mean come one.

ROGINSKY: Well nobody's actually saying Obama's certainly not saying Hillary should get out. He's actually encouraging her to stay in.

DOBBS: This week, this week. Before the movie was too long, throw in a short subject. Maybe we could have a double feature.

ROGINSKY: I said this last week and I still stand by it. Let us put a marker on this as soon as the primaries are over in June. I'm begging these superdelegates. Please have a convention in June and let's get this out of the way one way or the other. We need a nominee. We need one before we go to the convention in August.

SWAIN: It's not clear that the voters are going to be able to forget and put all of this behind them so quickly that the Democrats will have a convention and voters forget about the past six months.

DOBBS: Well you say that, Professor, I wonder though isn't there some tremendous benefit here to the Democratic Party? We're not talking about John McCain here tonight. We're talking about Obama and Clinton. Isn't that to net good of the party to the chances in November?

SWAIN: The bickering that's going on?

DOBBS: Yes, I didn't say I was being rational. I'm just putting forth a possibility. SWAIN: I see - I mean it makes the voters - it makes me feel just really frustrated. I feel like the ... (audio gap) ... of unity and diversity. And look at them bickering and destroying each other.

DOBBS: Well -- yes, Julie.

ROGINSKY: No, look, I would actually say to you that a lot of these issues that would have gotten aired in November are getting aired now for whoever the eventual nominee is going to be. And that's not a bad thing.

For example, this Reverend Wright thing is getting aired now because there's the -- there's a primary which means that it's hopefully not going to get as much attention come November if Obama is the nominee, which is not a bad thing for Obama.

DOBBS: Keith, you get the last word.

RICHBURG: Just look at how much money the Democrats are still raising this late in the process -- $40 million, $20 million. This late, people giving that much money means -- it's pretty good for the Democrats in terms of getting that fundraising list up.

DOBBS: Senator Obama alone, over $200 million.

RICHBURG: Incredible.

DOBBS: I think there's an expression, crying all the way to the bank -- the length (ph) of this movie (ph).

Carol Swain, thank you very much.

SWAIN: Thank you.

DOBBS: Julie, thank you very much.

ROGINSKY: Thank you.

DOBBS: Thank you.

RICHBURG: Thank you.

DOBBS: The results of our poll now. Our poll -- 97 percent of you say the United States government and corporate America have underestimated the threat posed by Communist China to this nation's interest.

And finally tonight, did you ever have one of those days when you feel like, well, some folks are kind of on you? I'm having one today.


SEN. BOB MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: Not only can you be swatted down by a newspaper, but by Lou Dobbs, so I --

I love you, Lou. (END VIDEO CLIP)


MAYOR GAVIN NEWSOM, SAN FRANCISCO: And on cable TV, where careers are literally being saved and salvaged, like Lou Dobbs.


DOBBS: You know -- Mayor Newsom is just a -- he's jsut an annoyance. Senator Menendez said he loved me, and so I'm going to say I love you back. I can't say I love to a fellow in San Francisco I suppose. But anyaway, Gavin Newsom, who has been saying that they are a sanctuary city for the -- nine times over the past two years. So I'm kind of over him.

And my old boss, Ted Turner, he's still a buddy, but he was asked on the "CHARLIE ROSE SHOW" about me and he said, "I think he's kind of flipped out...I wouldn't let him do this when he was working at CNN...fill it up with his opinions about who he hates. He doesn't like the Mexicans and immigration."

Turner said a lot of things. He also said we're still buddies. But I've got to be honest with you, we are buddies but I'm not the one who is flipping out here, Ted. We'll talk about it the next time.

We thank you for being with us. The "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown begins right now -- Campbell.