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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Iraq Pullout to be Suspended; McCain Attacks Rivals on Iraq; Border Fence Fight; Veterans Affairs Waste and Abuse
Aired April 08, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: Thank you, Wolf.
Tonight the economic slowdown is intensifying, the unemployment rate rising. What is the Bush administration doing to help jobless Americans? We'll have that special report.
And stunning charges tonight that employees of the Veterans Administration squandered huge sums of money that should have been given to our veterans. We'll have that report.
And the battle over a fence along our border with Mexico is escalating and incredibly now the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, Congressman Benny Thompson, is among those trying to stop the fence. The head of the Homeland Security Committee trying to stop homeland security from securing the homeland, it's got to be Washington, D.C. We'll have that story, all the day's news and much more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Tuesday, April 8. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
The U.S. commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus, today declared he will suspend troop withdrawals from Iraq in July. In testimony before the Senate, General Petraeus said he would not resume troop withdrawals until he is satisfied that security has been improving in Iraq.
Today's testimony gave all three presidential candidates an opportunity to headlight their own policy prescriptions for Iraq. Senators Clinton and Obama emphasizing their determination to withdraw troops quickly. Senator McCain declaring Congress must not choose to lose in Iraq.
We have extensive coverage tonight and we begin with Jamie McIntyre in Washington -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the question to General Petraeus today was how long will U.S. troops be stuck in Iraq? It was a question he wouldn't or couldn't answer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Acknowledging Iraq is far from stable America's top commander there said after the surge ends in July, he plans to halt U.S. troop withdrawals for at least 45 days and maybe much longer.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), ARMED SERVICES CHAIRMAN: I'm just asking a direct question; could that be as long as three months?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It could be, sir.
LEVIN: Could it be as long as four months?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, it is when the conditions are met.
MCINTYRE: General Petraeus came armed with a dozen charts intended to document what tenuous progress there is, but all underscored significant problems as well. One map depicting the expanding Iraqi responsibility over the country counts Basra as under government control, even though the recent fighting there showed Iraqi forces were overmatched by the Shiite militias and that as many as 1,000 Iraqi troops deserted.
Botched defensive underscored serious shortcomings in the Iraqi military that some senators, including one presidential hopeful, labeled incompetence.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And it was not something you had recommended.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not something I recommended, no, sir.
MCCAIN: Suffice to say it was a disappointment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was, although it is not over yet, Senator.
MCINTYRE: The charts showing more than 100 Iraqi battalions ready to lead operations were undercut by CNN's direct reporting of the reluctance of units in Baghdad to engage the enemy without U.S. prodding.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: Success always seems to be just around the corner when it comes to training and equipping of Iraqi forces.
MCINTYRE: Senators were frustrated that General Petraeus could give no assurance that U.S. troops could leave Iraq any time soon.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DE), COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Fifteen months into the surge we have gone from drowning to treading water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess the best answer to that is we'll know when we get there. We don't know when we are going to get there.
GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDER, MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE, IRAQ: That's why I have repeatedly noted that we have not turned any corners. We haven't seen any lights at the end of the tunnel. The champagne bottles been pushed to the back of the refrigerator, and the progress while real is fragile and is reversible.
(END VIDEOTAPE) MCINTYRE: President Bush has given General Petraeus a free hand, so even Pentagon officials are unsure when he might recommend troop withdrawal. Meanwhile, the hope for big troop cuts by the end of the year have basically evaporated. Some Pentagon officials still say privately they hope that one or two additional brigades could come home before Christmas -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie McIntyre.
Well, as General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker delivered their testimony today, the military said another one of our troops has been killed in Iraq. The soldier killed by a roadside bomb in Baghdad. Twelve of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month; 11 of them since Saturday; 4,024 of our troops have been killed since the war began; 29,676 of our troops wounded; 13,249 of them seriously.
Our troops in Baghdad today fought new battles with gunmen loyal to anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, U.S. and Iraqi troops trying to force al-Sadr's militia followers to disarm. Al-Sadr himself today threatening to end his so-called cease-fire if the U.S. and Iraqi offensive doesn't end, that so-called cease-fire has been in place now for seven months.
A Navy SEAL who gave his life to save his comrades in Iraq was today awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously. Petty Officer Michael Moonsur threw himself on a grenade in the Iraqi city of Ramadi to save the lives of two other SEALs. In a ceremony at the White House President Bush said this country will always honor and always cherish the memory of Petty Officer Moonsur. He is the fourth serviceman to receive the Medal of Honor since the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan started.
Senators today praised the heroism and bravery of all our troops in Iraq, but there was plenty of criticism of President Bush's management of this war. During the hearings on Iraq, Senators Clinton and Obama both calling for a measured and orderly withdrawal of our troops from Iraq and as soon as possible.
Candy Crowley has the report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Senator Clinton...
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before turning to the witness, Hillary Clinton conducted a little campaign business. A shot at John McCain who said yesterday a quick withdrawal from Iraq would be a calamity. And anyone who suggests it is irresponsible.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it could be fair to say that it might well be irresponsible to continue the policy that has not produced the results that have been promised time and time again.
CROWLEY: With that, the woman who would be commander in chief in low deliberate tones told the general in charge of the Iraq war his recommendation notwithstanding it is time for the troops to come home.
CLINTON: And for the past five years, we have continually heard from the administration that things are getting better, that we are about to turn a corner, that there is, finally, a resolution in sight. Yet, each time Iraqi leaders fail to deliver.
CROWLEY: When Petraeus testified before the Foreign Relations Committee, the man who would be president struck a tone similar to Clinton's, respectful disagreement. He, too, made campaign trail points in his case, the need to sit down with the enemy.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But I do think it has to be a measured, but increased pressure, and a diplomatic surge that includes Iran because if Maliki can tolerate as normal neighbor-to-neighbor relations in Iran then we should be talking to them as well.
CROWLEY: It was pretty much the campaign trail without the yard signs. Nobody thought the Petraeus report would change minds, and it didn't.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: Two things about today, Lou, General Petraeus met his future commander in chief, and whoever that turns out to be will be the commander in chief that has to figure out how and when to withdraw the bulk of those troops -- Lou.
DOBBS: Candy, I love that description, the campaign trail without the yard signs. It was all of that and less.
CROWLEY: Yes. Yes.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Candy Crowley.
Senator McCain today used the hearings on Iraq to attack his rivals in the Democratic Party. Senator McCain declared success in Iraq is within reach, as he put it. The senator accused both Clinton and Obama of a failure of leadership.
Dana Bash has our report from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Any question about just how critical this day in the Senate was to John McCain can be answered by looking at how he started it, a campaign rally with veterans right on Capitol Hill.
MCCAIN: My friends, we will never surrender to the extremists...
BASH: Next, the presumptive Republican nominee used his position as the committee's top GOP senator to take on his urgent challenge, proving (INAUDIBLE) Democrats wrong on Iraq.
MCCAIN: Today it is possible to talk with real hope and optimism about the future of Iraq.
BASH: Trying to tap into Americans' desire to win, McCain declared success within reach and used a favorite stump line to chastise Democratic rivals as one sat listening.
MCCAIN: The promise of the withdrawal of our forces regardless of the consequences would constitute a failure of political and moral leadership.
BASH: On the trail, McCain regularly applauds General Petraeus.
MCCAIN: He's one of the great generals in American history.
BASH: But as rosy an Iraq picture McCain hopes to paint, he's trying to gain credibility with more weary voters by acknowledging problems.
MCCAIN: The thousand Iraqi army and police deserted are underperformed.
BASH: He gently questioned Petraeus about Iraqi military defections during battle in Basra.
MCCAIN: What's the lesson that we are to draw from that?
BASH: He led the witness, too, especially to make the crocks of his argument for staying in Iraq.
MCCAIN: Do you still view al Qaeda in Iraq as a major threat?
PETRAEUS: It is still a major threat, though it is certainly not as major a threat as it was.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: McCain also had some help from his wingmen on the Senate Armed Services Committee, Joe Lieberman and Lindsey Graham. Lou, they both used their time questioning Petraeus to also scold Democrats saying they are simply not admitting that there is any progress in Iraq, but even McCain has admitted that that progress is hard to convince voters of when the violence in Iraq has been going up -- Lou.
DOBBS: And especially when General Petraeus, the man in charge of the theater, is being extraordinarily cautious about the fragile progress that has been achieved.
Thank you very much, Dana. Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
While lawmakers were focusing on Iraq, Iran stepped up its nuclear confrontation with the United States, Europe and the rest of the world for that matter. Iranian President Ahmadinejad today said another 6,000 centrifuges will become operational in Iran this year. Iran already has 3,000 operational centrifuges. Those centrifuges make nuclear fuel that can be used to manufacture nuclear weapons.
Coming up here next, outrage after top Democrats try to prevent the construction of a fence along our southern border with Mexico.
Casey Wian will have the story -- Casey.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Homeland Security Department is in a hurry to build more border fencing, congressional Democrats are moving just as fast to stop the fence. We'll have details coming up.
DOBBS: Whatever are they thinking? Look forward to your...
(CROSSTALK)
WIAN: ... politics, Lou.
DOBBS: Look forward to your report, Casey, thank you.
Also, you won't believe what employees of Veterans Administration have been doing with your money and what they haven't been doing for our veterans.
And unemployment is rising, incredibly our government is doing nothing to help the jobless. We'll have that report and a great deal more. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, Congressman Benny Thompson, and 13 of his fellow Congressmen are now trying to block the construction of that fence along our border with Mexico. Chairman Thompson and his Congressional colleagues are arguing the Department of Homeland Security is breaking the law by building a fence to stop illegal aliens and drug smugglers from entering this country. That's right; he's the chairman of homeland security.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (voice-over): The Homeland Security Department is waiving more than two dozen environmental and other laws to speed up fence construction on the southern border. The Republican control of the Congress granted that authority in 2005. Now 14 members of the current Democratic majority, including Homeland Security Committee Chairman Benny Thompson, are joining environmental groups in asking the Supreme Court to force Homeland Security to obey the laws.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is not going to be any fence big enough that they can't go over it or deep enough that they can't go under it or long enough that they can't go around it. Why destroy all our environment for something that's really of marginal value?
WIAN: Some of the laws were passed by Congress as far back as the 1800s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Congress has given Congress has taken away. In this case, the fence is a national security priority. It must be built.
WIAN: Other Democrats are also fighting the fence. At a Senate hearing last week, Ted Kennedy claimed fence construction waivers, not drug and alien smugglers, promote lawlessness.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: These new waivers create sweeping zones of effectively lawlessness along the entire U.S./Mexico border.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We are currently in a lawless situation at the border because we have not just human smuggling, but drug smuggling and violence occurring there. I had to go visit with a family of the border patrol agent who was killed a couple of months ago, because a smuggler ran him over with a jeep. And that vehicle wouldn't have been there if we had a vehicle barrier in place. So I feel an urgency to get this tactful infrastructure in.
WIAN: The department says it is roughly halfway to its goal of building 670 miles of fencing by year's end.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Congressman Filner says the legal waivers could allow the Department of Homeland Security to build the fence with lax workers safety standards and even with illegal alien labor, even though his district in San Diego includes a fence that has dramatically reduced illegal crossings, he remains opposed to extending it elsewhere -- Lou.
DOBBS: What is wrong with Filner? I mean he's out of his cotton-picking mind.
WIAN: He says the fence works in urban areas near San Diego and it works there because they've added so many more border patrol agents in that area. He says that it's not going to work as well in more remote areas, but it is clear that the real issue here for the members of Congress is politics. They want to stop this fence at all costs, Lou.
DOBBS: Sure they do. And they're doing so because they are basically supporting illegal immigration through amnesty, open borders. And every parent, in my opinion, every parent of children in this country, every grandparent, should be writing to Benny Thompson, the chairman of Homeland Security and telling him exactly what they think, and reminding him and Filner as well, and every one of those other people, and let's put them up on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, make sure everybody has got a list of these people, and remind them that that border, that Mexico is still the primary source of methamphetamines entering this country, marijuana, cocaine, and heroin.
And if they want to be responsible for the deaths and the shattering the lives of millions of young Americans, if they want to continue that, then they should keep playing politics with border security and with the lives of young Americans. It won't solve the war on drugs. It won't win it, but it is part of the solution. And it's one that we've got to quit ignoring in this country. Casey... WIAN: Absolutely, Lou.
DOBBS: ...thank you very much. Casey Wian.
Congressman Benny Thompson, the chairman of Homeland Security is scheduled to be our guest here tomorrow.
Time now for our poll: Are you outraged that the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee is working to stop the construction of that border fence?
We would like to hear from you. Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.
The federal government says it's reached the limit of H-1B visa applications that it will accept for next year's program. The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service won't say how many applications that it received, but the number could be as high we're told as 400,000 -- the official limit, 65,000 H-1B visas.
And by the way, seven of the top ten destinations for those H-1B visas not American firms looking for talent, but Indian companies in the United States seeking to bring in cheap labor, primarily from India, so that they can continue to outsource from American companies those middle class jobs.
Well, last week the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services began accepting applications from companies to bring in even more cheap foreign labor. The United States already has by the way -- now you remember we have listened to this president parade around the country asking for a guest worker program, well, the United States already has 10 guest-worker programs just in case the White House is watching.
Still ahead here, I'll tell you what Veteran Administration workers are doing with some of your tax dollars when those dollars should be going to our veterans.
And our middle class paying the price for years of rising indebtedness, we'll have that report and more.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An incredible example of government waste, government mismanagement within the Veterans Affairs Department. CNN has learned that employees of the Veterans Affairs Department charged hundreds of thousands of dollars in luxury goods and entertainment on their government credit cards. Now the Government Accountability Office is investigating.
Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): According to records released by Veterans Affairs, employees of the department racked up more than $26,000 in charges at luxurious Las Vegas hotels, bought $21,000 in movie tickets, spent nearly $8,500 at the Sharper Image gadget store and more than $6,600 at Macy's department stores, the charges on government credit cards has grabbed the attention of several key lawmakers.
SEN. DANIEL AKAKA (D), HAWAII: The VA needs to take an audit on these purchases to be sure that we are not overspending and that the procedure that they are using now in purchase card charges is a good one to use to service our veterans.
SYLVESTER: All told VA employees spend about $200 million a month on government charge cards in 2007. Most of those charges raised no red flags. A department spokesman says there are checks to root out abuse and argue that the hotel charges were legitimate, used to cover the cost of conferences and a town hall meeting.
And the movie tickets and store charges provided disabled veterans with entertainment and other needs, such as clocks for low- vision veterans. But taxpayer groups say instead of bargain shopping to keep taxpayer costs down, employees are spending it high in stores and staying in first-class hotels.
TOM SCHATZ, CITIZENS AGAINST GOVT. WASTE: I'm outraged that the taxpayer and the head of a taxpayer group, that this type of abuse continues. We have seen it before. It has to stop. This is a big waste of money.
SYLVESTER: This is not the first time the VA has been criticized for credit card charges by its employees. A 2004 VA inspector general audit found hundreds of thousands of dollars of waste involving government purchase cards.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And auditors have launched a new investigation. The Veterans Affairs inspector general expects to release that report in the summer. There is also a congressional hearing scheduled for July. Lou?
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Time to look at some of your thoughts now, thousands of you e- mailing us in about this Absolut Vodka map that was running an ad in Mexico depicting much of the United States as part of Mexico. As we reported here last night, Absolut has stopped running those ads and issued an apology.
Gary in Florida said: "Dear Lou, I absolut-ly -- get it -- absolutely poured out all the Absolut vodka in the house. Now we only drink Samuel Adams beer." And Gloria in South Dakota: "Lou, Absolut has it all wrong. Mexico does not control the southern United States. Rather, it controls Washington, D.C." I think that is a fair point.
And Michael in Texas said: "Lou, I do drink Absolut Vodka or did. I just dumped the last of one and a half bottles. I will be taking those empty bottles to the range when I go. Don't mess with Texas." Indeed.
We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast and each of you who receives a -- who reads a -- let me try this all over again. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Independents Day". See how easy that is when I just go a little slower?
And join me on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show". Go to loudobbs.com to find local listings for "The Lou Dobbs Show" on the radio in the afternoons Monday through Friday.
Up next here, is anyone in the Bush administration or our Congress doing anything to help the unemployed? We'll have a special report.
And General David Petraeus says troop withdrawals from Iraq will be suspended. Three top national security experts join me, each supporting obviously a different presidential candidate. We'll hear their views and that of their candidates.
And Senators Obama and Clinton return to their day jobs on Capitol Hill. Did they have any impact? We'll discuss that and more with three of my favorite radio talk show hosts. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: House Speaker Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi tonight is pushing for a second economic stimulus package that would extend unemployment benefits for millions of Americans. The White House says the current stimulus package is sufficient to help struggling middle class families.
As Kitty Pilgrim now reports, any of the federal government's plans come with a very high price tag.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the first six months of this year, 1.3 million people are expected to run out of their unemployment benefits and still not have a job. Nearly two million people are projected to lose their jobs by the end of this year.
MARTHA COVEN, CTR. ON BUDGET & POLICY PRIORITIES: One out of every six unemployed workers has run through six months of unemployment insurance benefits and now isn't getting any help from the government and isn't finding a job in this very weak job market. PILGRIM: Congressional Democrats are expected to propose extending the unemployment benefits past the traditional 26 weeks, a proposal the White House rejected in its $152 billion stimulus package. The Senate has put forward a proposal to extend current benefits another 13 weeks with a price tag estimated at $10 billion. House Democratic sources say it is too soon to put a cost on what their plan will include, but some say there are limitations to what the government can do to bring the country out of recession.
PROF. STEVE FAZZARI, WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: The problem is that the federal government I think does not have the tools to completely offset the weakness in the economy at this point. The stimulus package I think will help. This size of the problem is such that this is beyond what the federal government can do.
PILGRIM: President Bush's spokeswoman today said enough is being done for Americans in distress.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that something the president would extending unemployment benefits?
DANA PERINO, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: At this point, no, given that the unemployment rate that we have is historically and relatively low at just over five percent.
PILGRIM: The federal government re-training programs already cost $7 billion this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama both support the extension of unemployment benefits to laid off workers. Senator McCain, worried about overspending, has not come out in support of extending unemployment benefits, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, just so we keep enough money to bail out Wall Street that's all I'm concerned about because you know that's really what is important. Don't worry about the American people, don't worry about workers, just hang in there and make sure we don't lose any of those banks, because that's really important. Unbelievable.
Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan today confirmed what millions of middle class Americans already know. Greenspan says the economy is in the throws of a recession, his words, the R-word, all of that. Prices are rising on everything from cheap imported goods, which are not as cheap as there were, to basic food products whose prices are of course rising.
And as Christine Romans now reports, middle class homeowners can't turn to their homes as a source of credit now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The party is over. Americans gorged themselves on debt for two decades. They bought ever-bigger houses and they spent with abandon at Wal-Mart and the mall, just as the U.S. trade policy allowed our ports to be flooded with cheap imported goods.
How do they pay for it? By opening credit cards. Americans own four cards each on average and by taking money out of their homes. As home prices rose, Americans borrowed $1.1 trillion in home equity loans. Lenders peddled ever more exotic home financing, and the amount of money Americans borrowed from their homes soared more than 1700 percent over the last decade.
ROBERT MANNING, ROCHESTER INST. OF TECH.: The economy was never as good as it looked, and the real question is, now that the debt dependency is very clear, the question is how serious is this problem? Where are they going to turn to for help, especially as we start going into the job loss phase of this recession.
ROMANS: And a housing crash means Americans are tapped out, at the same time, basic costs are rising. Of course for many, it was never really much of a party.
TAMARA DRAUT, DEMOS: I think if you ask the typical American consumer, they would gladly trade the iPhone and the iPod for a decent affordable health care plan or for cheaper college tuition. We have been sold that the quality of life is so much better because we have all these great gadgets that are relatively inexpensive.
ROMANS: At the same time, especially in parts of the Midwest, manufacturing jobs have disappeared at an alarming rate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: A generation ago, a full-time worker could support a middle class family. Today, it takes two incomes. That's according to government statistics. In the short run, this downturn means belt tightening for American consumers, but ultimately Lou it may have to mean lower living standards. Structural problems here that have to be addressed and aren't.
DOBBS: Well, let's not accept lower living standards for Americans. Let's make that part of the decision this election year. Let's celebrate by demanding that if we're going to lower anyone's standard of living, it will be the people we elect to office, it will be the Democratic and Republican National Committees. We'll lower their standards of living, but we are going to let working Americans have the quality of life they deserve. Can we do that?
ROMANS: Should we change all our policies so wages start to rise again and so health care becomes affordable and so that you can get a home if you work in a decent average job?
DOBBS: And all these dummies who think that this is some sort of Mr. Market and when he smiles it is all good. We're going to rehabilitate those libertarians. It will be fascinating. I can't wait to see which one of these candidates comes forward with that program, can you? We should put in very specific contest, because it is a serious issue, what we have seen happen to our housing market has been the reduction in the value of homes in this country, residential homes, by $2.2 trillion. That's a lot of money. But, of course, it's not as much money as of course what would be at risk on Wall Street, because we have to really take care of those boys and girls.
That's $30 billion for Bear Stearns to be bailed out, $2.2 trillion in lost value in the residential market. It's a great tradeoff.
ROMANS: And yet in all of this, if you are a firefighter or a nurse, or you work at a job close to the median income in this country, you still are having a hard time finding an affordable home in a neighborhood with good schools.
DOBBS: Absolutely. If you do find the good schools, the likelihood is that you are going to soon be in the same shape as many others faced with a declining public educational system, because we are not pursuing policies to preserve the education system. We are going to get this fixed.
Christine Romans, thank you very much.
I'm getting a little upset right now, so we are going to a break.
Up next, the presidential candidates go back to work on Capitol Hill. Three of the best radio talk show hosts in the country will be joining me to rate the candidates' performances.
And the top general, the top diplomat in Iraq war and Iran's growing influence, I'll be talking to three of the candidates, that is McCain, Obama, and Clinton, their top military analysts here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: General Petraeus today said he wants to suspend the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq in July. As many as 140,000 of our troops could still remain in Iraq when the next president takes office.
Joining me now are three leading authorities on national security, each supporting a different presidential candidate. Congressman Joe Sestak, retired navy vice admiral who supports Senator Clinton.
Good to have you with us.
REP. JOE SESTAK (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Good to be aboard.
DOBBS: And General David McGinnis served in the army and the National Guard. He supports Barack Obama. John Lehman former secretary of the navy, he supports Senator McCain. I think everybody figured out you supported McCain, because that's all that was left in that fight.
Mr. Secretary, let me ask you, if I may to begin with, did you feel that John McCain got his points across today in a way that was differentiating? He attacked, at certain points, clearly, the conduct of the war in Iraq?
JOHN LEHMAN, FMR. NAVY SECRETARY: Yes, I think he did. I think he underlined the fact that we are making progress, but this is not something that is a slam dunk. He also made clear that the consequences of a willy nilly withdrawal will bring about a situation there, where we may well and probably will have to go back in on a much larger scale, because it will become a base for terrorism to spread further in the Middle East and plan attacks against the U.S.
DOBBS: And Congressman Sestak, your candidate, in terms of advancing, if you will, the agenda from her perspective.
SESTAK: I think Senator Clinton placed it exactly in the right context because she talked about the costs of this war and rebuilding our military. She made it very clear that it was the questions that General David Petraeus cannot or should not answer that should have been actually addressed there.
For example, she made it clear there's no army unit here at home. They could deploy anywhere in the world to meet one war plan's timelines; for example, to defend the 28,000 troops in South Korea. She made it very clear that al Qaeda has a safe haven now as the head of the CIA has said in Pakistan.
So she made it clear that at how long and what cost should not be answered by a man who is purely responsible for one part of America's security, and that's the part of Iraq's security that we needed a different canopy of people to address that national security issue. And that's why we need to change the strategy. It's hurting America.
DOBBS: General McGinnis, your candidate asked what I consider to be an extremely important question, that is concerning the definition of success in Iraq. What did you -- what do you think of the answers?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID MCGINNIS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Lou, I think that he made it clear through his question and with the answers that the administration has never had a sound strategic objective in Iraq. The state of objectives and the state of the objectives of the recent debate have been across the spectrum of spin.
My candidate looks at Iraq as a strategic distraction, quite frankly, in dealing with global issues that we face today, including the war on terror, nuclear weapons, and the whole spectrum of threats that America faces. I believe that he was clear at bringing that out with his questions.
DOBBS: And as we listened to General Petraeus, John Lehman, he was modest, he was cautious, he was careful. As he put it, he didn't talk about success around the corner or light at the end of the tunnel, an expression anyone who lived through the Vietnam era is certainly weary of, and suggested that the champagne be pushed to the back of the refrigerator.
Do you think that he was strong enough in straightforwardly saying what the American strategy in Iraq is, as he is pursuing it, and what the ultimate vision is from a military standpoint?
LEHMAN: I think from his point of view on the ground, he did a very good job. But John McCain has very clearly articulated what our goals are there that it is important to understand what is success. He has defined success very clearly as the ability for us to withdraw our troops with leaving behind a government that can provide stability and freedom for the people of Iraq and ensure that it will not become a threat to its neighbors and will not become a base for training al Qaeda and other terrorists to attack Israel and the United States and Europe.
DOBBS: Would your candidate, Congressman, disagree with that definition? If so, how?
SESTAK: Yes, Senator Clinton would disagree with General David Petraeus saying that our future has to be - what we do in Iraq is conditions based, because that by definition is an open-ended commitment, and the conditions are being set by Iraq.
She has stated, let's redeploy one to two brigade combats at a time because that's the only remaining leverage to have the Iraqi government, the politicians there come to a political accommodation.
There's a wonderful saying in Iraq. God willing tomorrow. She recognizes that until we get them to come together in a political accommodation, you can't have enduring military security. That's why she sees the goal of political accommodation being achieved first. Then military security comes about as has happened in Northern Ireland.
DOBBS: General McGinnis from your candidate's perspective?
MCGINNIS: From our perspective, the stability in Iraq is important, because as Colin Powell said, if we go after Iraq, we break it, we own it. But, from the standpoint of how we withdraw from Iraq and why we withdraw from Iraq, the object is to regain the strategic initiative. Right now we are on the strategic defensive. General Petraeus is in a situation where the other side can generate violence at any moment.
What we need to do is, as Joe said, push the Iraqis, but we also need to be able to engage the other nations in the region and be in a position to help the Iraqis. The only way we can do that is to pull military force out so we can regain the strategic initiative and react and place a hammer on those people so they have no choice.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, you might have a hard time convincing the Iraqis that is strategic initiative, that is the withdrawal of our troops.
Let many ask you this. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that the discussion of a quick and orderly withdrawal of American troops without considering the conditions on the ground in Iraq is even possible or desirable -- General McGinnis?
MCGINNIS: Yes, I think it is possible from a standpoint of how we withdraw, where we place those forces, and how we deal with the other nations in the region, because the violence in Iraq is not solely, as General Petraeus discussed today, is not solely focused in Iraq. There are other players in the situation. We need to deal with those other players in an objective way from strategic strength, not from strategic weakness.
DOBBS: Congressman Sestak?
SESTAK: Yes, a deliberate safe redeployment is absolutely the key to having stability, as long as there's a recognition that the road out of Iraq diplomatically is through Iran and dealing with Iran and bringing it in, as it did in Basra last week, and was able to have influence one the extreme elements.
We have to recognize when we left Somalia after Black Hawk Down to get 6,300 troops out of that country took six months. To get 40 brigade combat teams equivalence will take between 15 to 24 months. That timeline gives us time to deal with Iran to have stability.
DOBBS: Congressman, thank you. John Lehman, you have the worst word hear tonight.
LEHMAN: Well first of all, I think it is absurd to postulate that by withdrawing troops regardless of conditions that somehow this will improve the situation in Iraq and will make it less likely it becomes a terrorist base and haven. And that somehow the Iraqis have been sitting back and not wanting to develop the kind of political stability that we are trying to achieve. So it's clear, if you set the stage now, we are pulling out regardless at whatever pace or condition that is the result will be chaos.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, thank you very much. John Lehman, thank you. And General McGinnis, thank you. And Congressman Sestak, thank you. Appreciate it.
Up at the top of the hour here, the "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown.
Campbell, what are you working on?
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Lou, we got a lot to talk about at the top of the hour. We are going to see which one of the three would-be presidents looked most presidential at today's Iraq hearings. General Petraeus testified that progress in Iraq is real but fragile and reversible. We're going to get a reality check on that from our Baghdad correspondents as well.
And then also tonight, we are starting to hear again from wrestler-turned-governor Jesse Ventura. He's been quiet for a few years but we're going to ask him tonight why he is speaking out now. He has a lot to say -- Lou.
DOBBS: A lot of people would be curious about why now. Campbell, thanks a lot, Campbell Brown.
Up next, three of the most popular radio talk show hosts in the entire country join me to straighten me out about my views on the presidential candidates and the role of the populous vote.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now three of the most popular radio talk show hosts in the country and my favorites, Steve Cochran WGN in Chicago, Mildred Gaddis WCHB in Detroit, Mark Simone WABC here in New York.
General Petraeus today questioned by Senators McCain, Clinton and Obama.
Mildred, who did you think did best in questioning? I know this is sort of a perverse way to look at it, but who was best among those who would lake to like to be commander in chief?
MILDRED GADDIS, WCHB IN DETROIT: Well I've got to tell you, I thought all the performances were quite well. I thought that they all did well. I think that Senator Clinton really had a point to prove today. I think she succeeded with that. Senator Obama, who wanted to remind America that he felt from the very beginning, although he couldn't vote on the measure, that it was an ill-advised invasion. Senator John McCain pretty much stayed the course.
DOBBS: Mark, what do you think?
MARK SIMONE, WABC RADIO IN NEW YORK: They all sounded great. They all said the right things and got absolutely nothing, which is what we expected. There is something they can get done. The Iraqi oil industry is struggling. It now makes $100 billion. Maybe we can't get the troops out, but let the Iraqis start paying for reconstruction and our military effort.
DOBBS: That would be radical, wouldn't it? That would be exactly what the Bush administration promised to do at the outset.
SIMONE: $100 billion a year they are going to make in the oil industry.
DOBBS: Steve Cochran, do you think it is time to cut into the profits?
STEVE COCHRAN, WGN IN CHICAGO: The money part of it is certainly part of the argument, an important part of the argument, but I get tired of hearing folks in Washington gentlemen David Petraeus over there doing the job. We can argue all day long about what motives got us there, but we have to deal with the present and the immediate future.
We have to be grown-ups about it. The idea that we somehow are entitled to a specific date that we'll announce on our shows and all over the place, as far as when we are pulling out goes -- the common sense amazes me. Why can't there be a conversation between our military and our government and their government that goes, here's the number? Here's when we are leaving.
If you say it out loud, we leave sooner. The pressure is applied, and we move forward. I don't know I'm entitled to know exactly when that troop pullout will happen, nor is it realistic, because we don't know what the world is going to look like tomorrow or when the next president gets in.
DOBBS: I think we should send Cochran over with a State Department airplane and get the deal done, what do you think?
GADDIS: I tell you something, Lou, one thing every American is thinking about today after the hearings is that most of us were unaware of the $100 billion. As we look at what's happening with the housing industry and the economy, I think the question is how much of this are we going to continue to finance?
DOBBS: Yes, I think it's a great question that goes to the very issue that was sort of touched upon today. The number of troops that we have, 30-some-odd thousand in Germany and Korea, those countries are capable of supporting their own militaries and are in better economic shape than we are.
What in the world are we doing?
SIMONE: The fact is that we are paying for the military service we provide. We also made a big mistake in the '90s cutting down the size of our military by hundreds of thousands of troops. That mistake should be corrected.
COCHRAN: The other thing I'm hearing, Lou, I'm hearing people that say that Eisenhower was able to pull troops out of Korea, Nixon pulled troops from Vietnam, we need to grow up and understand this is a different kind of war. We are dealing with some very crazy people in small groups, not giant countries to keep an eye on. Because of that it needs to be fought in different ways.
You know me, Lou, I don't like to beat on a dead horse here but I just wish Petraeus would look at congress and say, I tell you what fellows and ladies, I'll give the exact date that we'll pull troops out when you give me the exact date you do something meaningful for the American people.
GADDIS: They would say bringing the troops home would be a benefit to the American people.
DOBBS: I can tell you what every one of them would say, Steve, honestly. Try this date. Some time after November 2008 that will kick in.
We'll be back with our panel here of my favorite radio talk show hosts in just one moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We are back here in New York.
Mildred, let's go to these polls. Clinton 49 percent, Obama 42 percent. This our poll of polls for Pennsylvania. Obama is closing it looks like very fast in Pennsylvania.
Should Senator Clinton get out now? I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
GADDIS: Let me just tell you, I think New Hampshire taught us to be very cautious about polls, but I tell you what, no matter what happens in Pennsylvania, I sincerely believe that had Hillary Clinton been anybody other than Hillary Clinton, the power structure of the Democratic Party would have asked her prior to now to step out.
I think Pennsylvania is going to be very telling, but I think that no matter what happens in Pennsylvania, if by some effort Barack seems to surpass her, she's still going to hang in there.
DOBBS: Do you think that's a good idea, Mark?
SIMONE: It's a terrible idea, but she'll hang in until the very end. She gets caught lying constantly every week in something. I don't know how she even hangs in after all of that. Lying about sniper fire, the centerpiece of her campaign, that story about the poor woman who died with no health insurance, she turned out to be lying. How do you stay in the race after that?
GADDIS: You have to be Hillary Clinton.
SIMONE: I think the 3:00 a.m. phone calls, what about 3:00 p.m.?
DOBBS: Let's talk about somebody who is living a rather benign existence right now, that is John McCain. Nobody to pick on him. Nobody to fight with. I mean, and he is running -- the thing is that the national news organizations aren't focusing on, John McCain in a head-on-head contest each time, whether it is Obama or Clinton, he wins. What is that about?
SIMONE: He's taken a lot of flak. He had the Ed Schultz call him a war monger.
DOBBS: Wait a minute. You say that's flak. Some people would consider that air cover. It's a joke, Mark. It's a joke.
SIMONE: But he's gotten trashed left and right this past week. The things Jay Rockefeller said about him that he flew high in the air and he never saw the destruction, that was just horrible stuff.
DOBBS: Mildred did you --
GADDIS: I think what's interesting about John McCain is how he's flipping a little bit. He's heard from the conservative right or those who are the most conservative of the group saying that he's just not as strong and then the other Republicans are saying they want to see something different. I find it interesting that with this housing scandal and the CEOs of Countrywide and the other mortgages --
DOBBS: Well we -- you know what? We lost her signal.
Mildred, I apologize --
Have we got her -- have we get that back?
SIMONE: Well this is perfect for me.
DOBBS: Mark, what were you thinking?
SIMONE: It's all mine now.
DOBBS: Well, not quite all. I get to participate at the margin.
SIMONE: McCain's proposal to limit CEO pay -- we'd all love to see CEOs get a lot less money. But I don't think that is the government's job. You're talking about waging price controls all over again in some form.
DOBBS: Mildred, you get the last word because we cut that line to the satellite, if one can do such a thing.
GADDIS: Well I think that John McCain has flipped a little bit. I don't think he's going to stay the course. He said in March that the government should not be involved in the housing industry whatsoever, whether it be the mortgages or the consumers. And now he's talking about there should be some relief. So I think there's more to come.
DOBBS: You know what I call that? I call that populist enlightenment. As it has come to Barack Obama and to Senator Hillary Clinton, so it comes now to Senator John McCain.
I think the three of us would agree it would be a good idea if all three of these candidates embrace the idea that we put the people first in this country. Am I right?
GADDIS: Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?
DOBBS: I just can't wait.
And John McCain, as you suggest, he's showing signs of movement here. I like that.
Mildred Gaddis, thank you very much.
GADDIS: You're quite welcome.
DOBBS: I apologize to you and to our audience for the satellite problem.
Steve Cochran had to get back to work there on WGN.
And Mark Simone was kind enough to help me through these terrible times of technical difficulties. Thank you, sir.
SIMONE: Thanks. DOBBS: Good to have you with us.
And our poll results tonight -- 88 percent of you say you're outraged that the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee is working to stop the construction of that fence along our border.
Time for some of your thoughts.
David in Maine said about the Absolut Vodka ad: "The first piece of property that should be returned to Mexico is located in Crawford, Texas. Isn't that the capital of Mexico?"
And Patrick in Arizona said: "Lou, I told my wife we're gathering all our credit card bills and anything else we can gather, and sending them to Washington. We need a bailout too."
We thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow.
For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
The "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown begins now -- Campbell.
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