Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Democrats Can't Decide who is More Electable; McCain Releases Tax Information; White House Defends NAFTA Amid Democratic Criticism
Aired April 18, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Wolf, thank you.
Tonight a heated showdown on the campaign trail. The Clinton and Obama campaigns blasting each other over who is most electable, who is toughest.
We'll have complete coverage and new charges that prosecutors betrayed two former Border Patrol agents given harsh prison sentences on the testimony of an illegal alien drug smuggler they had wounded and who was given immunity by the prosecutor. Incredibly that drug smuggler likely is to receive a shorter sentence than the agents.
And Pope Benedict XVI can't stop criticizing the United States as he continues his visit to this country. We'll examine the rising political agenda of the Pope and the Catholic Church.
And all of the day's news and much more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT. News, debate and opinion for Friday, April 18. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Sharp exchanges today between the Clinton and Obama campaigns four days before the Pennsylvania primary. Senator Clinton today told Obama if he can't stand the heat he should get out of the kitchen, a reference to the senator's complaints about Wednesday's debate when Obama was on the defensive. Today the Obama campaign accused Senator Clinton of blatant hypocrisy.
Meanwhile Senator McCain is continuing his efforts to establish himself as a populist. Senator McCain today released his 2007 income tax return.
We have extensive coverage tonight beginning with Suzanne Malveaux in Winston-Salem, North Carolina -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Senator Clinton began her day in Pennsylvania. She's now here at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. She was just introduced by poet and professor Maya Angelou. She is here to say that she is going to go much beyond Tuesday's Pennsylvania primary. She's going to be moving ahead.
And both of the candidates today outlining what they say are important issues to the voters especially when it comes to character.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Countdown to the do-or-die primary for Hillary Clinton four days, the Pennsylvania contest, a potential game- changer. So as far as Clinton is concerned, all the issues, including Barack Obama's recent gaffes and missteps, are fair game.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And just speaking for myself, I am very comfortable in the kitchen.
MALVEAUX: Lately, the race has become quite heated. Clinton taunted Obama after he complained that Tuesday's debate in Philadelphia focused too much on trivial issues that didn't matter to voters.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Forty-five minutes before we heard about health care, 45 minutes before we heard about Iraq, 45 minutes before we heard about jobs.
MALVEAUX: Much of the first 45 minutes were questions about Obama's patriotism, his controversial pastor, and his characterization of small-town Pennsylvanians as bitter. Clinton is trying to paint Obama's criticism about the substance of the debate as evidence he's not tough enough for the top job.
H. CLINTON: Having been in the White House for eight years and seeing what happens in terms of the pressures and the stresses on a president, that was nothing.
MALVEAUX: Her husband, former president Bill Clinton, added this.
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But you know, this is a contact sport. If you don't want to play, keep your uniform off.
MALVEAUX: When asked about Hillary Clinton's accusation, Obama was complaining, he said, "You tell me who's been complaining about the press over the last six months." But much of the day Obama focused on the issues he says voters care about.
OBAMA: Instead of giving tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans, we're going to start giving tax breaks to ordinary workers.
MALVEAUX: Since the candidates are generally in agreement on issues like giving tax breaks to the middle class, withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, and providing universal health care, the campaign's focus has shifted to the candidates' character.
H. CLINTON: Just didn't jive with what he had written about and knew to be the truth.
MALVEAUX: Clinton's administration and apology about lying about arriving in Bosnia under sniper fire so far has not been exploited by the Obama campaign.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou, there are three political figures who say they believe Barack Obama is tough enough for the job. They have endorsed him today and it include Bill Clinton's former Labor Secretary, Robert Reich, as well as former senators, Sam Nunn and David Boren, both of them who have decades of foreign policy experience -- Lou?
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
Susan Malveaux, traveling with the Senator Clinton tonight in North Carolina. Thank you.
The battle over endorsements illustrating the high-stakes contest to win the support of the superdelegates. The superdelegates will determine like -- in all likelihood who wins the nomination.
Candy Crowley joins us now from Philadelphia.
Candy, how are the senators trying to win over these superdelegates?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think you saw some of that in Suzanne's piece. This whole idea from Clinton, you can't stand the heat, you need to get out of the kitchen, he was complaining, this all goes to one of their central arguments, and that is that Barack Obama is untested and not tough enough to take on a Republican machine that Hillary Clinton has taken on for the past couple of decades.
So one of her arguments has been, if you want to win - electability -- then I'm the person that you need to elect because, boy, he can't even, you know, stand this debate. So it is all part of that -- look sort of on the top of it, you sort of look as if why are they complaining about complaining, but it goes to the central superdelegate argument from Hillary Clinton which is, look, I can win and he's untested and heaven only knows what will come up if you put him into the fall campaign.
DOBBS: And whining about whining, many Obama supporters, as you know, Candy, are just simply seething over what they say was Obama's unfair treatment in the ABC debate Wednesday.
Why are they upset or is it just simply -- is this some sort of strategy? Why are they, in point of fact, whining so much?
CROWLEY: I think it's one of those things that's organic to the Internet. I do think, you know, one link leads to another leads to another, and pretty soon you've got this giant snowball running through the Internet. So I think that's part of it. And I think what -- as far as I've seen when reading these, a lot of it is, they felt that it was too much focus on him.
But the fact of the matter is that's what happens with frontrunners. Hillary Clinton did complain when she was a frontrunner in a very tough debate at Drexel University. They complained later about piling on, that sort of thing. It just happens to frontrunners. But, you know, Lou, one of the things that we have seen over the course of the past couple of months is a real hardening of positions between the Obama campaign supporters and the Clinton campaign supporters.
And more and more, they cannot see the other point of view. Used to be, you know, when we started out Democratic voters were going, oh, I'll take any of them, they're wonderful. But boy, as we have gone on, it's gone down to the two of them. We are really seeing some hardening on both sides.
DOBBS: Yes. It's quite a different campaign than six months ago. These candidates in many respects quite different people than they were at the outset.
Thank you very much, Candy Crowley in Philadelphia tonight.
CROWLEY: Sure, Lou.
DOBBS: Senator McCain today kept something of a low profile on the campaign trail but his advisors released his 2007 income tax returns showing a total income of only about $400,000 last year. Senator McCain is, by far, the -- well, he's earned the least of any of these three senators. He's refusing, however, to release his wife's income.
Cindy McCain reported to have assets worth up to $100 million.
Dana Bash has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Senate faces once again...
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John McCain is considered one of the wealthiest members of congress. But you wouldn't know it by looking at the tax returns released by his presidential campaign. In 2007, McCain's total income was $405,409. His taxable income, $258,800. He paid $188,660 in taxes.
The campaign did not release tax returns for McCain's wife Cindy, heiress to a fortune from her father's beer distribution empire, Hensley & Co., which she now serves as chairman.
According to last year's Senate financial disclosure form, the McCains have assets of at least $36.5 million. Some estimates put her worth at $100 million. Before marrying 27 years ago the McCains signed a prenuptial agreement to keep their finances separate and file their taxes separately. McCain's campaign said Cindy is not releasing her returns, quote, "in the interest of protecting the privacy of her children."
Michelle Obama who also has young children did release her tax records filed jointly with her husband.
MCCAIN: My life has not been one of privilege and luxury. I had the great honor of serving in this country.
BASH: As for McCain, he received more than $58,000 from the Navy for his pension. That 71-year-old presumptive GOP nominee also got some $23,000 last year in Social Security, and paid nearly $18,000 in alimony to his ex-wife. He earned nearly $177,000 in book royalties, which he and his wife donated to charity. And McCain gave an additional $17,000.
All told, McCain donated about 26 percent of his income to charity. By comparison, the Clintons gave 15 percent, the Obamas gave 6 percent.
Almost all of McCain's donations went to the John and Cindy McCain Family Foundation, which gave most to helping children with cleft palates which their adopted daughter suffered from and clearing land mines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Democratic chairman Howard Dean issued a statement calling McCain's lack of transparency, quote, "troubling," and said not releasing Cindy McCain's taxes raises questions about what he is hiding. Ironically, McCain campaign advisers defended not releasing his wife's tax returns by comparing it to Democrat John Kerry's campaign four years ago, when he is multi-millionaire wife refused to disclose all of her tax returns.
And Lou, that was something Republicans complained bitterly about back then.
DOBBS: Well, point of fact that neither complaint is worth -- means anything. I mean we're talking about the candidates themselves and they happen to be married to women who are independently wealthy. What is the point here and to what degree should we even pay attention to this sort of whining nonsense that they're spewing?
BASH: That is precisely -- maybe in different words but it's pretty much precisely what we're hearing from McCain campaign tonight, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, and it was entirely appropriate in the case of Senator Kerry, it is entirely appropriate in the case of Senator McCain. Everybody needs to grow up just a tad, I think.
All right, thank you very much, Dana Bash.
BASH: Thank you.
DOBBS: Turning to the war in Iraq, insurgents today killed another of our troops. Our soldier was killed by a roadside bomb just north of Baghdad. Twenty-five of our troops have been killed so far this month, 4,037 of our troops have been killed since the war began, 29,780 troops wounded, 13,297 of our troops wounded seriously. In Afghanistan, two of our Marines were killed in Kandahar province. 412 of our troops have been killed in Afghanistan since that war began nearly seven years ago.
Rising anger tonight over former president Jimmy Carter as he continues his maverick tour of the Middle East. Today President Carter met with two Hamas terrorists in the Syrian capital of Damascus. This is the third time President Carter has met with Hamas this week. And by meeting with Hamas, President Carter has defied the State Department and the Bush administration, which says Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel, which says Hamas is responsible for suicide bombings and kidnappings.
President Carter himself says he's simply trying to understand different opinions and communicate with people who don't talk with each other.
Coming up next here, new questions about prosecutorial conduct in the case of former Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean who are now serving a sentence that has lasted some 15 months.
Casey Wian will have our report -- Casey.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Texas U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton told you last night there is no plea agreement in the case of a drug smuggler who helped convict Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean. But he may not have told you the whole story. We'll have more details coming up.
DOBBS: Looking forward to it, Casey. Thank you.
Also new evidence of the devastating consequences of our government's failure to insist on fair trade with communist China.
And Pope Benedict XVI at it again. Today again criticizing this nation, this time at the United Nations. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Illegal alien drug smuggler Osvaldo Aldrete Davila remains behind bars tonight. His guilty plea to four drug smuggling charges raises new questions about the truthfulness of his testimony against former Border Patrol agents Ramos and Campean. And in what is an outrageous turn of events, Davila may end up serving a much lighter sentence than the two agents who tried to arrest him.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (voice-over): Osvaldo Aldrete Davila pled guilty to four counts of marijuana smuggling Thursday, each count carries a potential penalty of five to 40 years in prison, plus a $2 million fine.
In 2005, during another drug run, illegal alien Aldrete Davila was shot and wounded by the former Border Patrol agents Iganacio Ramos and Jose Compean. Davila received immunity to testify against the agents and they were convicted of charges including assault and not properly reporting the shooting. The agents received 11 and 12-year prison sentences.
Aldrete Davila is likely to receive a shorter sentence even though Judge Kathleen Cardone and the U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton who were involved in both cases deny there is a deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Any plea bargain?
JONNY SUTTON, U.S. ATTORNEY: No. He pled straight up to the indictment, pled to all counts and the sentencing hearing will be later this summer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WIAN: But a source close to the case says Aldrete Davila has agreed to cooperate with prosecutors investigating drug trafficking organizations and is expected to receive a sentence of between six and 10 years.
According to federal sentencing guidelines, judges may reduce a prison sentence, "upon motion of the government stating that the defendant has provided substantial assistance in the investigation or prosecution of another person."
PROF. JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Most judges are not happy to see people like this in their courtroom again. The view of the court is often, if you got an immunity deal, you really did hit the lottery and you better not push it. And if I see you back again for trying to bring drugs into the country, then all bets are off. So the sentence that he received is going to get a great deal of scrutiny.
WIAN: Aldrete Davila's credibility and drug smuggling history are key components of the Border Patrol agents' ongoing appeal. For example, Davila testified during the Ramos and Compean case that he didn't know these bundles in the van he drove contained some 750 pounds of marijuana.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: And during yesterday's guilty plea hearing, Judge Cardone warned Aldrete Davila that he had taken an oath to tell the truth and that she expected him to listen and answer truthfully. His track record on that, undoubtedly, is questionable.
And also in a statement released late this afternoon, U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton said Aldrete and his attorney have met with an assistant U.S. attorney and provided a statement concerning Aldrete's involvement in the offenses charged in the indictment. His statement, Sutton says, were consistent with the evidence available to prosecutors.
So maybe, Lou, Mr. Aldrete Davila is learning how to tell the truth in court.
DOBBS: Yes, I -- that may well be, but it seems entirely beside the point. The man obviously was lying and was engaged in criminal activities while under the cloak of immunity from the prosecutor in that trial in which these two agents were convicted without the knowledge on the part of the jury of Davila's background -- Aldrete Davila's background and his activities.
At this point, I cannot, for the life of me, see any reason in the world why this trial would not be just simply overturned in whole. I would be astonished if the appellate court didn't admonish both the trial judge and the prosecutor.
WIAN: Well, they've already done that to a certain extent, Lou. A couple of the judges expressed outrage, at least as much as a federal appeals judge can express outrage. They said that the prosecution overreacted in charging this case. Prosecutors themselves admitted that Aldrete Davila, their star witness, told some lies on the stand.
I mean just the fact that he would get up there and say he couldn't smell 750 -- didn't know that there was 750 pounds of marijuana in his van. Anyone who's ever been around a drug bust knows the smell after big marijuana haul like that and it is unmistakable, Lou.
DOBBS: All right. Well, what's -- also unmistakable in this case is the absolute miscarriage of justice. Any indication whatsoever when we're going to hear from the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals on Ramos and Compean, who, frankly, are my primary concern, not Aldrete Davila.
WIAN: Absolutely. There is no indication. Court watchers expected the decision to be handed down much sooner than this. Supporters of the Ramos and Compean think that it's a good sign that the justices are taking a long time to study this and taking it very seriously, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, I'm sure Ramos and Compean are not pleased with the length of this -- time being taken. And I'm certain that they and lots and lots of other people will not be pleased if, again, this trial judge puts a sentence of something on the order of six to ten years against a man who has lied and violated the terms of his immunity, as well as U.S. drug smuggling laws? I mean it's incredible what we're watching happen here in Texas justice.
WIAN: It sure is, Lou. But I will tell you that family members of the agents were encouraged by this guilty plea by Mr. Davila. They think that this provides more credibility to their case, the fact that he has admitted to being a repeat drug smuggler, which is completely contrary to the way he was portrayed by the government during the trial, Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian. We'd like to know what you think of all of this. In our poll question tonight, we'd like to ask you: "Are you outraged that the drug smuggler who testified against Ramos and Compean may receive a lighter sentence than the two former Border Patrol agents who were sent to jail on his immunity and testimony?"
Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.
Congressman Dana Roarbacher is one of the congressmen fighting to have Ramos and Compean released from prison and their names cleared. She'll be joining me here later in the broadcast.
Up next, four days before the Pennsylvania primary, senators Obama and Clinton at each other's throats instead of talking about issues that matter. We'll be talking with three of the brightest political thinkers in the country about whether any of that does matter.
And red storm rising. An American industry struggling to survive as chief imports from communist China flood into the United States. We'll tell you what the Bush administration is doing about all of that. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Another American industry fighting to survive against the unfair trade practices of communist China. The Commerce Department is imposing a tariff on wire hangers that China is dumping in this country at prices well below manufacturing costs.
But as Bill Tucker now reports, these tariffs come far too late to help most of the American hanger industry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The price of hangers is rising from about four cents to roughly nine cents. The increase is because of a tariff being placed on hangers from communist China. It follows the Commerce Department finding that the hangers are being dumped on the American market well below the cost it took to make them. That decision means this American-owned hanger plant in Alabama in the jobs it provides have a fighting chance of competing against the Chinese product.
It is the last hanger maker in America.
Advocates of American manufacturing say the tariff is a small price to pay to protect jobs and industries.
SCOTT PAUL, ALLIANCE FOR AMERICAN MANUFACTURING: China's acting against the rules of international trade time after time. You have American industries that are facing layoffs, that are facing plant closings, and are facing bankruptcies because China is cheating.
TUCKER: It is, they claim, a dangerous cycle. ALLAN TONELSON, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: When foreign competitors can get away with subsidizing industries and dumping their U.S. counterpart out of existence, that means that foreign governments are making the basic decisions as to what the U.S. economy will look like, what we actually produce, where our jobs will come from.
TUCKER: And it is a cycle that is hard to break.
MATTHEW JAFFE, ATTORNEY: We all like to have cheap prices. What I think people are forgetting is that you need a wage. You need a salary in order to buy goods in a store.
TUCKER: Jaffe knows firsthand, he represents a hand truck manufacturer who is facing possible bankruptcy because of unfair practices by a Chinese manufacturer. At stake is a company with more than 500 jobs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now Gleason, the hand truck maker, claims the Chinese company which is on the brink of driving Gleason out of business is owned by the Chinese government and it has the documents to back up those claims. The Department of Commerce is currently in China investigating those claims. We should note that every day the United States buys $700 million more in products from China than what we sell to China.
And Lou, that inequity, of course, means more money in the foreign coffers and less dollars here at home.
DOBBS: Yes, and you'll have a number of idiotic columnists around the country writing stupid articles about the fact that I'm a protectionist when what I'm calling for is absolutely reciprocal, mutual, balanced trade.
And by the way, I want to say this, because, if by any chance anyone at the Commerce Department is listening or watching or paying any attention at all, or anyone in the White House, or any member of this administration, I would like you to take back to the president of the United States -- and think about this, Carlos Gutierrez, the secretary of commerce -- you're watching the destruction of American jobs, lives and capital because of the ignorant policies followed by this administration for the course in the past seven years.
It is inexcusable, it's part of the legacy of the madness and the foolishness of -- that was created by George W. Bush and everyone associated with him in this administration. It's disgusting, it's deplorable, it's unforgivable.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Bill Tucker.
Well, the White House today vigorously defended NAFTA against criticism from the Democratic presidential candidates and others who say that agreement needs to be fixed or simply eliminated.
National security counsel official -- National Security Council, the National Security Council, not the Commerce Department, not the trade representative -- the National Security Council official Dan Fisk said, "there's nothing broken, why fix it?"
This calls into question how broken is our National Security Council that they have morons like this holding forth on something like NAFTA. This Fisk says NAFTA works and the problem is one of perception, he said. In order words, you and I are such idiots there's no real problem, it's just the way we perceive it.
Forget the $70 billion in trade deficits with Mexico, forget the $64 billion in trade deficits with Canada, or the fact that we had surpluses with both at the onset of the NAFTA agreement. Fisk goes on to say, this genius in economics, says the administration needs to better explain the benefits of the agreement.
Yes, Dan Fisk, that's a very good idea. Please send out your number one economist, George W. Bush, to explain to all of us who happen to know that the -- about a million jobs have been lost and that we continue to set records and deficits with both of our principle trading partners under NAFTA, and explain then how NAFTA's expected to be addressed when President Bush, Canada's prime minister and the president of Mexico meet next week in New Orleans.
We'd like to hear that. Please be sure to let us know. I am so proud that we have a National Security Council that is that clever. This could explain why so much has gone so well around the rest of the world. Statements like the idiocy, the moronic statements, the banalities coming from the National Security Council.
We will continue here in just one moment. And when we do, we will be revving up for the North American Union and the other madness that will be coming out of New Orleans next week.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, joining me now, three of the best political analysts in the country. In Washington, D.C., Ken Vogel, politico.com.
Ken, good to have you with us here.
And in New York, "Lou Dobbs Tonight" contributor, Pulitzer prize winning columnist, "New York Daily News," Michael Goodwin.
Michael, good to see you.
And "Lou Dobbs Tonight" contributor, Democratic strategist Robert Zimmerman, also a Hillary Clinton supporter, also a superdelegate.
Good to have you with us despite all the weight of all those titles that you carry with you.
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I'll carry on. DOBBS: Well, Senator Clinton told Senator Obama today get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat. In all fairness she did give attribution to Harry Truman. That's a bit of a - well, she sets progress.
MICHAEL GOODWIN, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Certainly, didn't mean that.
DOBBS: I thought she wanted everybody to stay in the race for the longest time possible.
ZIMMERMAN: She does. She wants him to take the heat though. The real test for Democrats is going to be - and this is the real battle in our party -- those who are -- primarily those in the beltway, in the establishment of what we have of the establishment, those who want to avoid a fight and the Democratic grassroots that are loving this race, watching the debate in record number, voting in record number and that is an important, very important fight to keep, for us to keep going.
DOBBS: Is she going to win in your opinion, Michael?
GOODWIN: I think she's going to win in Pennsylvania. The question is by how much. That's going to make all the difference in the world. I think any victory at all --
DOBBS: What is all the difference in the world? Let's say she wins by 6 percent, 8 percent or 10 percent. What's the difference?
GOODWIN: Ten percent is better.
DOBBS: All right.
But she'll take 6 percent. Or five percent, or 4 percent or 3 percent.
GOODWIN: I mean, I think that a small victory will keep her in the race but there will be a big tsunami of Obama people and even some neutrals saying get out, get out, get out. So she needs a big...
DOBBS: But look, she's made it pretty clear she doesn't care how many Obama supporters tell her to get out, she's going to tell them to stick it. Right?
GOODWIN: Except that after Pennsylvania it becomes a more difficult argument if she hasn't racked up a big win and dented his delegate lead. So, she's got to have a big win to do both of those.
DOBBS: Ken Vogel, do you agree?
KEN VOGEL, POLITICO.COM: She needs a big win for two reasons. First of all, as you said, she needs a big win to sort of cut into to some extent Obama's pledged delegate lead but she also needs a big win to justify her continued presence in the race to superdelegates and the folks who are really deciding this nomination to say, hey, I am going to be better at Senator Obama at a general election against John McCain because I can win the big states. That's an argument we've heard her make repeatedly. Without a big win in Pennsylvania, I think eight points is a big win, less than that, she'll have a tougher time making that argument.
DOBBS: Well, let's go to the issue of Indiana. She has to win Indiana, point blank.
ZIMMERMAN: I think Barack Obama said Indiana is the tiebreaker. And I think that's very true. I think...
DOBBS: That makes it sound like he feels pretty good about how he is going to do in Indiana.
ZIMMERMAN: It does. But, you know, it's funny, I think, clearly he is running a strong campaign there and it's going to be a very close and competitive race. But it looks interesting to me with Barack Obama outspending Hillary Clinton two or three to one depending on the week, why the assumption is that Hillary Clinton will win that state? I believe she will win.
DOBBS: Which state?
ZIMMERMAN: Pennsylvania, I'm referring to. With Barack Obama outspending here so...
DOBBS: Well, let's get back to Indiana. Come on, it doesn't matter who spends what now, it is about who does what.
ZIMMERMAN: Well, the money does help with the organization, helps you get out the vote --
DOBBS: I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying nobody's going to care. If Hillary Clinton loses Pennsylvania, who cares, it's done.
ZIMMERMAN: I agree with you. It's a must win. Pennsylvania is a must-win.
DOBBS: Let's go back to Indiana. Indiana she has to win.
ZIMMERMAN: Sure.
DOBBS: Is she ahead?
ZIMMERMAN: Right now, most of the polls show her within the margin of error but behind Barack Obama and I think it's going to be a very interesting test for both of them in terms of the fact that Indiana has become such a critical state because Obama's expected to win North Carolina. And so therefore, if he can win Indiana that's really going to create a lot of momentum for him.
DOBBS: Is Indiana the deal closer, the tiebreaker? Is it a rap if she loses Indiana.
GOODWIN: Well, I think it's a wrap if she loses Pennsylvania.
DOBBS: Well, yes, no, we agree about that. But let's assume that five-point margin holds up right now. Let's talk about Indiana because she could win Indiana. We still have -- win Pennsylvania, we still have Indiana in play. She has to win that as well or not?
GOODWIN: She's in a single elimination situation. Anyone she loses, perhaps except in North Carolina, knocks her out. Because Indiana and Pennsylvania have somewhat similar demographics, just as Ohio did. She won Ohio by ten points. If she could win Pennsylvania big, there is no reason to believe she couldn't and also repeat it in Indiana.
DOBBS: You agree, Ken?
VOGEL: Well, the longer this goes on the better it is for John McCain. There is a lot of divisiveness right now that is going to take some time to sort of soothe over. There are so many Hillary Clinton supporters who just can't imagine voting for Barack Obama, and the opposite is true, so many Obama supporters who can't imagine voting for her. And unless the Democrats have some time to really work to bring the party together after this nominating fight, they're going to find themselves at a disadvantage in an election which in many ways should favor them.
ZIMMERMAN: You know something, Ken? If the Democrats are not disciplined enough, mature enough and committed to the issues enough to pull together, if they can't pull together then they don't deserve and we, my party, doesn't deserve the White House. This competition is not divisive. This competition actually has been an energizer. And my feeling is it is nothing compared to what we're going to face from the Republicans.
VOGEL: Well, you're right and it adds to that. Because all these attacks that are being volleyed about right now are ones that the Republicans are watching closely, they're helping to establish the narrative that they will use against whichever of these candidates win the nomination.
ZIMMERMAN: The Republicans don't need any help in establishing a narrative. Democrats have got to get off the defensive and start debating the serious issues in this campaign and really confront each other on them.
VOGEL: Well, the attacks that are going back and forth are not over serious issues. They're over personality and they're over questions about patriotism. We heard Senator Obama complaining about last night --
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, Ken!
VOGEL: Those are things that the Republicans will use in the general elections.
DOBBS: You can you keep talking when you're talking to Mr. Zimmerman. When I speak to you, Ken, please. Or Michael Goodwin.
VOGEL: Touche. DOBBS: Here's the deal. Senator Obama said what about anti- immigrant and anti-trade policy in that little statement in which he insulted every working man and woman in Pennsylvania. Those were substantive issues, weren't they?
VOGEL: Those were substantive issues and they --
DOBBS: And he said that the policy and the viewpoints of those in those poor working louts in Pennsylvania was based on their emotional reaction to being stiffed by the system. Right?
VOGEL: He did say that.
DOBBS: Thereby dismissing their entire -- their entire viewpoint with his summarized superior condescension. I consider those substantive issues and I consider his approach to be utterly ignorant on the issue.
VOGEL: And certainly both Senator Clinton and Senator McCain have been hammering him over that for many of the reasons that you just summarized there in a way that is going to hurt him if he wins the nomination.
DOBBS: Well, let's get to this, Michael Goodwin. John McCain, all right. Ken Vogel wants to get back to John McCain. Here's the deal. He doesn't release those doggone tax returns. What are you going to do?
GOODWIN: Well, it is a Friday afternoon so when they decide to put them out on a Friday you know there's something in there he doesn't want to talk about. And of course, it's - I think the only legitimate defense he has, and it could be pierced by someone really pushing on it, is that he and his wife have for 20 years have filed separate returns, ergo, it's hers, not his.
DOBBS: And there's a prenuptial that says exactly the same thing.
GOODWIN: Right, very convenient.
DOBBS: By the way, there was a little similar issue, was there not, with John F. Kerry.
ZIMMERMAN: That's exactly right. And she put out a summary and the Republicans went after the Kerry's for not putting out a summary. John McCain wants to be an image of transparency, let him step up and play by his own rules.
DOBBS: Come on, all of you, grow up.
I mean, there are enough real issues. Ken Vogel wants to talk about the real issues, you know the stuff besides illegal immigration, the other stuff besides free trade, the other stuff beside Kerry.
Ken, you get the last word. VOGEL: Certainly on the tax returns, I think what that shows is that their assets really are separate and this is going to be a problem for McCain if he's unable to raise money or if e doesn't opt to go with the public financing system. He can't write himself a $5 million check this campaign.
DOBBS: Ken, are you married? Are you married?
VOGEL: I'm not married, no.
DOBBS: Well, let me tell you these very famous, words. Please, darling, please. Ken Vogel, politico.com, thanks for being here.
Michael Goodwin, we appreciate it "New York Daily News."
Robert Zimmerman, Democratic National Committeeman extraordinaire, superdelegate, supporter of Senator Hillary Clinton and good guy.
Up next, more on the Pope's visit. His criticism of this country and Father John Paris will join me to make sense of all of that and one of the staunchest supporters of Ramos and Compean, Congressman Dana Rohrabacher joins me for the latest developments.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Pope Benedict XVI arrived in New York today where he addressed the United Nations General Assembly. The Pope issued a warning apparently directed at the United States that the international community should not be ruled by the decisions as he put it, of a few. Father John Paris, professor of bioethics at Boston College joins me tonight from San Francisco.
Father Paris, good to have you with us.
REV. JOHN PARIS, BOSTON COLLEGE: Good to be back, Lou.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this. If during his comments at National Stadium yesterday, he said we're at a crossroads, and then he said this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE BENEDICT XVI, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: What does it mean to speak of child protection when pornography and violence can be viewed in so many homes through media available today?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: What, how would you -- what is he trying to say there? Is it a rationalization, it is a contextual statement or what?
PARIS: Well, I think he's saying we missed the boat, we mishandled the child abuse because there were signs of this activity and we ignored them. And he said the lesson we've learned is you must be vigilant, you must respond to what you see as a problem.
And he said, take for example some of the advertisements that we have, turning children into sex objects in order to sell men's shorts. He says, all of these are dangerous to children and dangerous to the society and you must be aware of it and we've certainly learned that ignoring the danger signs is at the peril not of yourself but of the vulnerable children.
DOBBS: He wasn't in anyway attempting to be exculpatory of those priests or the church, was he, by looking to the broader issue of media?
PARIS: Oh, I don't think so at all. I think he was saying we have to be continuously vigilant and we failed that and let's not fail it again.
DOBBS: Let me ask you, because this thing with illegal immigration has come up now twice on this trip. What in the world is he trying to do? He is suggesting that the United States -- he's been implicitly critical of the United States, he's been directly critical of the United States.
What is -- this is a very uncomfortable point for many of us who are not Catholic and who do not understand why he would choose to call us out, if you will, in our own homes.
PARIS: Oh, I think the Pope is coming and speaking to the American Catholic Church but from the perspective of a man who's got 1.1 billion Catholics. And so his concern is not simply this small community, which is huge. We have 67 million Americans. But putting it into the context of 1.1 billion, we're not the only people he's concerned with and the only party in the game.
DOBBS: OK.
And does that go to explaining his comments about something that the few should not be ruling the world?
PARIS: I think that's a part of it as well, yes.
DOBBS: And what would you say he meant? Does he mean the United Nations should or what?
PARIS: I think he means that unilateral activity is just detrimental to the well being of a major society.
DOBSB: All right.
Father John Paris, as always, we thank you very much for being with us here. Thank you.
PARIS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, the "ELECTION CENTER" and Campbell Brown.
Campbell, tell us all about it.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Lou.
Just ahead on the "ELECTION CENTER," we are going to have the very latest on the polygamy custody hearing in west Texas. The court is just ending and there has been some startling testimony today. We're going to have details on that.
We are also of course counting down to the crucial Pennsylvania primary, the candidates on the attack. No big surprise there. But we're going to look at what they have to do in the final days before voters head to the polls.
Plus, yet another surprising move from Pope Benedict today. It was the first for any Pope and we will show you what he did coming up -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Campbell.
And coming up here next, how the latest developments in the Ramos Compean case could affect efforts to free those two men. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher will join me here next.
And "Heroes," our tribute to our service men and women. Tonight, the story of Marine Matt Kutilek. He is passing along his experience to the next generation of marines.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The guilty pleas of drug smuggler, illegal alien Oswaldo Aldrete-Davila raises critical questions about the truthfulness of his testimony at the trial of Ramos and Compean. How will all of this affect the efforts to free these former border patrol agents from prison and clear their names? Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, one of the leaders in that fight, joins us tonight.
Good to have you with us, Congressman.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: Well, thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: It is outrageous that we're having this, I guess, this discussion 15 months in prison. Do you believe that Aldrete-Davila, his guilty plea, will lead to the overturning of their conviction, Ramos and Compean?
ROHRABACHER: Well, it certainly adds a new layer of despair and discrepancies to this case. What it means, we all knew that number one, this man had been interdicted while trying to bring $1 million worth of drugs into the country and after an altercation with Ramos and Compean, they -- the government ended up filing charges against Ramos and Compean. We know that. We also knew that before Ramos and Compean had their trial, he was fingered for another drug deal even --
DOBBS: This is...
ROHRABACHER: He was on a free pass --
DOBBS: This is now the third.
ROHRABACHER: and now we know there is a third!
DOBBS: Right.
ROHRABACHER: The fact is his pleading guilty to yet a third count suggests -- and totally underscores the position we've been taking that the jury was lied to. You don't have to tell a direct lie to lie to a jury. You just have to lead them intentionally with a false impression. Mr. Sutton and his prosecutors left the jury with the impression that this guy was not a committed drug dealer, he'd only done this once.
DOBBS: Do you believe that the prosecutors in this case should be investigated?
ROHRABACHER: I think that once -- that this is overturned -- and I pray to god that it is overturned -- that we should focus on Mr. Sutton and the prosecutors and decide whether or not they are guilty of criminal activity in terms of violating the rights of these two men.
DOBBS: What -- I want to ask you something in regard to that as well. But also, what do you think if this Aldrete-Davila receives less of a sentence than the agents Ramos and Compean.
ROHRABACHER: Well, here is a man who was smuggling millions of dollars. The first load was $1 million, the second load was a million, we don't know how big the third load was. And yet these men in the performance of their duties stopped him and after a scuffle, you know, they used their weapons.
Was that out of procedure or not? Well, that's the question. But it is not a criminal act. And here they end up with ten years in prison. They're in solitary and the drug dealer is probably going to be in jail for five years.
DOBBS: Well, in addition to this, as you know, Deputy Gilmore Hernandez also brought cases brought by Johnny Sutton against him in 2006 in Rock Springs, Texas. Hernandez opened fire as a deputy there on a vehicle that was trying to run him over.
ROHRABACHER: That's right.
DOBBS: The vehicle carrying illegal aliens. Now, one of the aliens in the vehicle was slightly injured. A local investigation found absolutely no wrongdoing found. The Mexican consulate intervenes there. Johnny Sutton steps into the cases, he brings charges, Hernandez is convicted of violating the civil rights of those illegal aliens.
Hernandez was then sentenced to a year in prison, released late last year. Those illegal aliens were never charged with trying to kill that deputy. In fact, the United States government gave them green cards and a six-figure cash settlement. What in the world is going on?
ROHRABACHER: Well, what we have here is obviously a pattern and it's not just Ramos and Compean and this other case, but we have a pattern of where Mr. Sutton and his prosecutors are going after the people who are protecting our border. And let's take a look at it. With the Ramos and Compean, Mr. Sutton called them on radio, called them corrupt. Mr. Sutton, these are two guys that were out -- have an unblemished record.
They were in the military before they were on the border patrol and Mr. Sutton is trying to assassinate their character before the American people. He was bringing up personal issues with one of them in a family dispute. They were out to get this. This is criminal targeting of these guys in order to make a political point and the president of the United States bears the responsibility.
DOBBS: I couldn't agree more with you in that regard certainly.
Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, thanks for being here.
Coming up next, "Heroes." Our tribute to the men and women who serve this nation in uniform. Tonight, we meet Captain Matt Kutilek, the former marine who is helping educate new military leaders.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: And now "Heroes," our tribute to the men and women who serve this nation in uniform. Tonight, we introduce you to Marine Capt. Matt Kutilek. Capt. Kutilek served two tours in Iraq. The captain was honored with the Marine Corps Medal of Achievement and Commendation with Valor. Now, Capt. Kutilek is focusing on turning cadets into future marine leaders at the Citadel Military College.
Philippa Holland has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPPA HOLLAND, CNN, CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As a marine platoon commander at the beginning of the Iraq War. He was among the first conventional forces inside Mosul to seize and secure Baath Party headquarters.
In 2004, he led numerous mobile assault platoons near Haditha and evacuated casualties from the heart of Fallujah. There, he ran through insurgent fire to save the life of a wounded marine.
CAPT. MATT KUTILEK, U.S. MARINE CORPS: For one straight month -- this is the last month of --
HOLLAND: Today, far from the urban combat zones of Iraq, Citadel alum and junior Marine Officer, instructor Captain Matt Kutilek, teaches evolution of warfare, and his battlefield experience commands respect.
KUTILEK: There are at least 7,000 POWs. A lot of them are getting killed ..
(on-camera): It's a difficult transition at times because I had a very high level of focus coming from intense battlefield in Iraq, coming in to here, and some of the cadets and Marines didn't necessarily have the same focus, drive, that I possess. That was my goal -- to convince them that is serious business. The more energy they can dedicate, the more focus they have now, the better it will payoff in the future.
Being a lieutenant in the Marine Corps is not about yourself, it's about leading your Marines and taking them underneath your wing and taking care of them, and making them endure hardships so they learn to become tougher and more disciplined.
And hopefully, in the long run, they appreciate it even more when a Marine's life is saved.
JARED COOPER, CITADEL MILITARY COLLEGE: We call him Captain America a lot of times, because of all the things he has done. He just brings a lot to the table. And he's one that we always try to always emulate that.
HOLLAND: Yet for Captain Kutilek, it's far more than admiration. He also wants his students to live up to the values of the Citadel and the Marine Corps.
KUTILEK: If you go into a combat zone, you're not going to find out who you are in a time of trial. You're only going to act out who you really are. So in order to do that, you need to be a good person, and go on the right path and learn and have a good guiding light in peacetime. So when you get to a difficult situation in wartime, you are merely acting out who you really are.
HOLLAND: Phillipa Holland, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And the results of our poll tonight -- 98 percent say you are outraged at the drug smuggler who testified in against Agents Ramos and Compean may receive a lighter sentence than the two former border patrol agents.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Join us here tomorrow.
For all of us, we thank you for watching. Good night from New York.
The "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown begins right now -- Campbell.
