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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Tornado Destroys Picher, Oklahoma; 2008 Tornado Season Deadliest in Years; Massive Earthquake Hits China
Aired May 12, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf.
Tonight the State Department is paying attention, finally, to the escalating drug cartel violence sweeping Mexico and the threat to this country finally recognized by our State Department. The spokesman saying they're shocked, shocked.
Well, tonight, what could be the worst tornado season in years. More than 20 people killed over the weekend. We'll have that story and proof of citizenship before you can vote, what an idea, new efforts to ensure the integrity of our voting system.
We'll have those stories, all the day's news and much more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Monday, May 12. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Officials in three states assessing tonight the damage from deadly tornadoes that killed 22 people over the weekend, six people died in the mining town of Picher, Oklahoma, Saturday. A tornado with winds as high as 175 miles an hour destroyed a 20-block area. Susan Candiotti is in Picher, Oklahoma, and has our report. Susan?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou. You know fewer than 1,000 people live in Picher, six of them were killed in that tornado. A community already clinging to life because of air pollution, water pollution and all of that due to a mine that was shut down in the 1970s, so this tornado is the last straw.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(CHAIN SAW)
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): It's salvage day at the 46-year-old Workman homestead where finding little things sometimes means a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here some things you just can't replace, right?
CANDIOTTI: On Saturday, Gloria and Tom were carrying in groceries when they heard sirens and saw a monster funnel cloud coming straight for them. GLORIA WORKMAN, TORNADO VICTIM: And it was just roaring and just getting closer and louder and louder and you could see stuff flying everywhere, so we ran to the bathroom and he got me in the tub as low as he could get me and he put the dog in here on top of me. You could hear it go woo, woo and then it finally, the (INAUDIBLE) just came in on us and I grabbed a hold of him because I didn't know if he could hang on and I was holding on to him and the tree came and hit him in the back of the head and then it went into my arm here and (INAUDIBLE) about that long went into my arm.
CANDIOTTI: The Workmans are among hundreds waiting to hear about an expected expedited government buyout of Picher's homes. The town's long closed lead and zinc mines polluted the air and water. The land has been caving in. A federally funded toxic waste cleanup has been dragging on for years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't care what they offer me. It's going to be a lot more than what I have now.
CANDIOTTI: Saturday's tornado was a final blow to the town.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is good-bye. This is good-bye to Picher.
CANDIOTTI: When the Workmans leave for good, it won't be without their trustee bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It saved our lives and at the least we can do is give it a decent burial with flowers. We're going to plant flowers in it.
CANDIOTTI: As if to make matters worse, Tuesday's forecast calls for the threat of more tornadoes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn't want to see that. I really wouldn't.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: And she's not the only one. Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff and FEMA Director David Paulison will be touring this area tomorrow and, Lou, that's not soon enough for the town of Picher -- back to you.
DOBBS: Susan, thank you very much. What a remarkable couple. They're very tough and I assume the residents of Picher. What is the outlook for the town?
CANDIOTTI: Well, absolutely no one is planning to rebuild here. Something that you normally hear after a tornado strikes a town. People here hope to get their money from FEMA, hope to get that federal buyout money soon so they can pick up and move on and it won't be here.
DOBBS: Susan, thank you very much. Susan Candiotti from Picher, Oklahoma. Well the 2008 tornado season is the deadliest in years and, tonight, residents of Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and other states preparing for even more dangerous storms, including tornadoes. Carrie Lee now reports on what is behind this deadly string of violent weather.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARRIE LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There is no hard and fast tornado season, but most hit the U.S. between April and June. This year, tornadoes struck as early as January.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now the preliminary count of tornadoes in the United States is roughly 860. The final count when we actually get all the data in will probably be somewhat less than that, maybe on the order of 650 to 700. This is a well above normal year and one of the biggest years in the last 50 or 60 years but not necessarily a record-setting year.
LEE: The tornado death count this year is also high, 96. This marks the fifth biggest tornado death toll to date in the last 40 years. A severe tornado season like this comes from a combination of factors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing is happening is weather and the normal spring developments that occur. The second factor is the La Nina, you know the overall pattern of where the storms go and where the storm track is throughout the year and that is dominated out by the La Nina conditions out in the tropical Pacific and then the third factor, a much smaller factor is the overall level of increases in intensity of rainfall that we get because there is more water vapor in the atmosphere associated with global warming.
LEE: While the number of tornadoes recorded per year is on the rise since the 1950s, the numbers may be going up because more people and better technology are allowing the experts to keep better track.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEE: Now, as for property damage from 1950 through 2006 in 2006, dollars Lou, tornadoes cost $48 billion worth of damage, but hurricanes cost in aggregate on average two to three times as much, flooding five times as much, so it's a lot of money, but hurricanes, floods, a lot worse.
DOBBS: The deaths associated with these storms, they're rising as you report. I mean this could be the worst in 50 to 60 years of the number of fatalities...
LEE: Absolutely and the number of tornadoes and number of deaths not necessarily exactly a direct correlation. You can have fewer tornadoes and even more deaths. But one of the highest death years so far on record and we're not even done.
DOBBS: Right, just beginning, point of fact. Thank you very much, Carrie Lee, we appreciate it. Severe weather also hitting other parts of the country today, Florida's governor declaring a state of emergency there, windy weather fueled wildfires in the state's central Atlantic Coast. Three thousand acres burning in Brevard County, fires burning as far north as Daytona Beach. Firefighters are concerned that high winds in Florida could hamper efforts to control those fires.
And there was flooding in areas of Delaware and Maryland as a slow-moving storm system moved through the region, more than four inches of rain falling in some areas, about 70,000 homes and businesses without power.
Well, nearly 10,000 people are dead in a massive earthquake that hit China early today and much of Asia. About 8,600 people are estimated to have been killed in the Sichuan province alone, that according to the Chinese government media reports. The death toll is expected to go much higher. John Vause reports from Chengdu, China.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After a series of powerful tremors across this country, many are spending the night outdoors. This is the municipality of Chengdu, home to about 30 million people and many are now sleeping here in this park. They have tents. They have blankets because, quite simply, at this stage they are too afraid to return indoors.
The epicenter of the quake, though, was about 200 miles from here. That is where most of the damage has been reported in Sichuan province, in particular one county called the Sichuan county, home to about 116,000 people. State media says 80 percent of the buildings there have been destroyed, the death toll there numbers in the thousands.
Also, around the epicenter about 60 miles, about 100 kilometers around the epicenter there are reports that at least six different schools have collapsed. At one of those schools as many as 900 students have been buried. Most of those are in the eight and the ninth grade. Heavy earth moving equipment is on the scene, search and rescue workers.
There are reports that some teenagers have managed to free themselves from the rubble and also there have been cries for help coming from beneath the debris. Also in the quake zone, two chemical plants have collapsed and underneath that rubble hundreds of people, as well, also leaking out from those chemical plants about 80 tons of liquid ammonia.
Across this region, homes, buildings and factories, many of them poorly built have collapsed and roads, too, have been badly damaged and that is hampering rescue teams beginning to those mountainous areas where many people need help. The Chinese government has sent in thousands of troops as part of this rescue effort. The prime minister is here to personally oversee this massive operation as there are fears that this death toll will continue to spiral.
John Vause, CNN, Chengdu, China.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well there are concerns tonight as to whether relief supplies sent to Burma are reaching cyclone victims. As many as a million people are feared to be facing disease, starvation and death. The first U.S. military cargo plane with relief supplies finally landed in Yangon today, but no U.S. officials were allowed to accompany those relief areas, relief supplies to the hard-hit areas. An American official earned the Burmese government to allow U.S. disaster relief experts into the country. Two more U.S. aid flights are set to arrive Tuesday.
Up next here, the State Department says it's shocked by the escalating drug cartel violence in Mexico. Just exactly what does our State Department do? Casey Wian will have the latest for us on a war that Mexico is losing and one which may well spill into this country. Casey?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's almost now a daily occurrence in Mexico. Another top law enforcement official gunned down in a suspected drug cartel hit. We'll have details coming up.
DOBBS: Thank you, Casey, looking forward to that.
And proof of citizenship before you can vote in this country. What a concept. New moves to ensure the integrity of our voting system, some people don't like that. We wonder why.
And Senator Clinton's campaign chairman, Terry McAuliffe, joins me. He'll tell us why he believes Senator Clinton can still defeat Senator Obama. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Mexico's raging drug wars are escalating. The second- ranking police officer in the border city of Juarez was gunned down Saturday and his boss, the police chief, then announced his resignation. The State Department, the U.S. State Department is renewing its call for Congress to release more than $1 billion in aid to Mexico to help it fight the drug cartels. Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (voice-over): A 50-shot fuselage killed Juan Antonio Roman, second in command of the Juarez police force Saturday. At least five senior Mexican law enforcement officers have been assassinated within a week. Roman's name was number one on this suspected drug cartel hit list left at a Juarez police memorial in January.
Of the 12 names on the list, local news reports say eight are now dead, which explains why Juarez police chief Guillermo Preito reportedly resigned Sunday. The death toll from Mexican President Felipe Calderon's year and a half long war on drug traffickers has soared past 3,000 and the cartels are also fighting each other. The son of the suspected head of the Sidaloa (ph) cartel was among those killed in a shootout Thursday, 500 shell casings found near his body.
PRES. FELIPE CALDERON, MEXICO (through translator): During my management there have been many soldiers, many marines, especially federal police who have lost their lives fighting to liberate the citizenry from crime.
WIAN: Mexican media reports say Calderon now travels with a military escort including a helicopter displaying a mounted machine gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are shocked by the escalating violence against Mexican law enforcement officials. They illustrate the serious threat these organizations pose to democratic institutions in Mexico.
WIAN: The State Department repeated its call for Congress to quickly approve the Merida initiative, which would provide $1.4 billion in military aid over three years to help Mexico fight drug cartels. But five Congressmen wrote President Bush last week urging him to withdraw the military aid request for now arguing that until our southern land border is adequately secured there is little chance at reducing the amount of illegal drugs and contraband originating in Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: So far 2,500 Mexican federal troops have been unable to stop the violence in Juarez, the city just across the Rio Grande from El Paso has endured more than 200 drug-related killings so far this year. El Paso police say they've seen little evidence of the violence crossing the border into the United States, but if it does, the sheriff says they're ready, Lou.
DOBBS: Well that's very, very much a statement filled with bravado, but it doesn't mean much since those illegal drug smugglers are moving somewhere between 25 and $45 billion worth of methamphetamines, heroin, cocaine and marijuana into the United States every year. Who do they think they're kidding with those kind of remarkably just empty statements?
WIAN: Well, its clearly a crisis what's going on just across the border from them in Mexico, all along the border with the United States and no one in the federal government seems to be in too much of a hurry to get aid approved for Mexico to help them fight the drug cartels or to get the border secured in a way that would stop the drugs from flowing across it, Lou.
DOBBS: This administration is absolutely responsible for the deaths, literally, of hundreds of thousands of lives either lost or destroyed by illegal drugs moving into this country. This administration's insistence on leaving that border insecure and to permit the level of drug traffic and human smuggling across that border, I mean it is truly a crime for which this administration should be held responsible, so should this Democratic leadership of this Congress. This is inexcusable what they're doing. How are the agents reacting? How are law enforcement agents reacting? Their hands are basically tied here as this blood bath is simply widening in Mexico and drugs continue to pour across our border along with illegal aliens and who knows who else.
WIAN: You know the local law enforcement has been saying for a couple of years, at least now, that their hands are basically tied. All they can do is hope that the federal government gets serious about helping to secure the border and they're just hoping and praying that more of this violence doesn't spill across it, Lou.
DOBBS: Now, if that money were cut off at the border in through our ports, as well, for the drug cartels, there might be quite a different reaction in Mexico and perhaps it would be more valuable than simply a billion four that the Merida legislation would provide. Casey, thank you very much, Casey Wian, reporting.
Federal agents arrested more than 300 illegal aliens today in a raid at a meat packing plant in Postville, Iowa. The Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency says Agriprocessors Inc. employed illegal aliens from Mexico, Guatemala and Eastern Europe. Agents released 44 illegal aliens to care for their children.
They were ordered to report to court at a later date. The illegal aliens are charged with immigration violations of course, but we have absolutely no word tonight of what the company is charged with, so we will try to update you on that as soon as sanctions or charges are provided, if, indeed, they are.
Up next here, the state of Missouri is expected to pass a tough new voter ID law that requires proof of citizenship. We'll have that special report.
And later, does Hillary Clinton think she can still win the Democratic nomination? I will be talking with her campaign chairman here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New efforts tonight to ensure the integrity of our voting system. In the state of Missouri lawmakers there are fighting to require voters to demonstrate proof of citizenship before they can vote, Missouri's efforts being closely watched by states across the entire country. Kitty Pilgrim has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the state capital this week in Jefferson City, Missouri, a push to get voter ID laws into place as soon as possible.
STANLEY COX (R), MISSOURI STATE LEGISLATURE: When you get to such fundamental things as the right to vote and have everyone's vote count the implication of fraud, of any amount is significant because it diminishes our vote. PILGRIM: The Supreme Court ruled last month that requiring a government-issued photo ID to vote in Indiana was not a burden and did not violate the constitutional rights of voters. More than two dozen states required some kind of ID at the polls, but only seven require photo ID, but now the way is clear to make changes in state laws.
THOR HEARNE, ELECTION LAW ATTORNEY: The objective here is to make it easy to vote but tough to cheat and states like Missouri are looking to that. They're looking to it as they adapt their own provisions.
PILGRIM: The National Conference of State Legislatures says the Supreme Court decision was a turning point for a new push for voter ID and a renewal of the bitter fight against it.
TIM STOREY, NAT'L CONF. OF STATE LEGISLATURES: It's very unlikely that states will take any action before this fall's election, but it will ratchet up the intensity of the debate and will probably boil over yet again.
PILGRIM: The ACLU and some other voter rights' groups argue voter ID laws suppress voting because not everyone has adequate ID.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now Missouri is following the Supreme Court ruling and what it called a reasonable requirement to vote. Now, the Supreme Court ruling found it's in the interest of a state to count only the votes of legitimate voters, that seems pretty basic, Lou.
DOBBS: And the likelihood of this passing in Missouri.
PILGRIM: The referendum they hope to get by August and, if they can, they have to pass a law and it will go in for November, but they're not absolutely sure they can get it done for August.
DOBBS: OK and with this issue on the integrity of our voting system Congresswoman Candace Miller also pushing and pointing out that because -- and this is remarkable -- the Congressional Research Service finding that because of illegal aliens living in California -- California has six more Congressmen in the United States Congress than they should have.
PILGRIM: Yeah.
DOBBS: It's extraordinary and people are seemingly and mainstream news media hasn't got a clue what's going on here and refuses to look at because, apparently, they think it's politically incorrect.
PILGRIM: They think it's politically incorrect and in fact some of the evidence points that people who don't have documents that they say are going to be disenfranchised are actually going to be helped if they are required to have ID because the states actually help them get it. DOBBS: And the number of states who are underrepresented in Congress because of illegal immigration -- I think it is 11 states underrepresented because of illegal immigration, illegal aliens living in other states, one example in California when looking at citizens -- the ratio of citizens in some districts in California to say this entire state of Montana with one Congressperson there are more than twice as many citizens in Montana as there are number of Congressional districts in California.
I mean, it's just insane what is being permitted here. It's just, it's utterly nuts. So it will be Missouri, it is going to be interesting. Actually, have to be a citizen to vote in this country. What a concept. And that would be, of course, a significant burden. Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim.
It's also the subject of our poll question tonight. Do you believe all voters should be required to show proof of citizenship before they can vote? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.
And let's take a look now at some of your thoughts. Carl in Illinois said, "Dear Lou, your poll on Friday had 98 percent of us responding, no, we don't believe George Bush and Congress are taking the Mexican drug cartel threat seriously. I think the other two percent were George Bush and Dick Cheney. Keep up the good fight, Lou." We'll sure try.
And Julie in California said "With the Mexican drug cartel supplying drugs to our college students and the constant breakouts of violence at our border just a couple of miles away, I don't have any faith that our representatives will do anything to secure our protection. Why are these people even in office?" You know, I don't think I want to think about that answer because it sounds like it's your fault and mine.
And Michael in North Carolina, "I don't believe the administration is taking seriously the threat of drug cartels in Mexico. We're not even taking seriously the non-violent threat of unabashed illegal immigration. Why would you think the war on drugs would be any different?" Silly me, I apologize. I was hoping.
We'll have more of our e-mail here later in the broadcast and please join me on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show". My guests tomorrow include Steven Greenhouse, author of "The Big Squeeze: Tough Times for the American Worker." And I'll be joined by "New York Daily News" columnist Errol Louis, Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf, as well as we go through that pivotal West Virginia primary.
Please go to loudobbs.com, loudobbsradio.com to find local listings for "The Lou Dobbs Show" on the radio every afternoon Monday through Friday.
Up next here, Senator Clinton says she will not quit the race for the Democratic nomination. Her campaign chairman, Terry McAuliffe, will tell us why. And Senator Obama says he's all but assured of the nomination. He's already focusing on the general election. Is that a wise idea? We'll be talking with three top political analysts.
And more states now taking action to end the harsh impact of illegal immigration, one of those states is Nebraska. I'll be joined by the state's attorney general here next. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Hillary Clinton is expected to win a huge victory in tomorrow's primary in West Virginia. Her chances of winning the Democratic nomination, however, appear slim tonight, but she isn't dropping out of the race.
Joining me now from Washington, her campaign chairman, Terry McAuliffe.
Terry, good to have you with us.
TERRY MCAULIFFE, FMR. DEM. NATL. CMTE. CHMN.: Good to be back with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Let me start by asking, everybody says what's the point here? Let's start with, what's the point?
MCAULIFFE: The point is there are still 7 million Democrats yet to vote. We have six contests to go. We have hundreds of delegates to be chosen. Senator Obama will need the unpledged superdelegates to win. We'll need them as well and the argument is after June 3rd who has the best chance to win in the general election. Hillary has gotten 16.6 million voters. Senator Obama has 16.7 million. This thing goes on, we have six important contests. She's going to win by double digits tomorrow night.
DOBBS: Did you include Michigan and Florida there?
MCAULIFFE: I do. They voted. The delegates is a different issue. But they clearly voted, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, they clearly voted but then the fools of the Democratic National Committee wouldn't count them. So, how about this, when we get a redo in Michigan and Florida sort of unseemly for the Democratic Party to be disenfranchising voters.
MCAULIFFE: I couldn't agree with you more and Hillary offered to do a redo. We even offered to pay for it. Unfortunately, Senator Obama would not accept the challenge to do the redo. I agree. We have got to get Florida and Michigan in the mix. We've got to have them for the general election. Hillary's going to win at least three of the next six. She's going to win the three big population centers. This thing should go on. Millions of people are fighting for her and she will fight for them.
DOBBS: Another question comes, why, let me ask you this. You're the expert here.
MCAULIFFE: Yeah.
DOBBS: Why all of the discussion about when 2,025 votes are needed for a nomination, neither one can succeed with pledge delegates so it's going to be a brokered nomination no matter how you look at it because superdelegates are required to reach that number.
MCAULIFFE: That's right.
DOBBS: Why not have a more deliberative and fully comprehensive approach to this. That is, the Democrats will find a comprehensive and why not include Florida, why not include Michigan and just have a good old time of it? Why rush to judgment?
MCAULIFFE: I agree. This thing is so close. The difference of 100,000 votes out of 35 million cast. Never before have we asked a potential nominee in such a close race to get out of the race. Why should Hillary Clinton get out of the race? She will win by 25 points tomorrow. She's going to win by 25 points in Kentucky. We're going to win Puerto Rico. We're close on the delegates.
DOBBS: In all due respect, we were told before by campaign officials of Senator Clinton that they're going to wrap it up by Super Tuesday, too.
MCAULIFFE: That's right.
DOBBS: What in the world is going on here? It's been quite a different scenario, hasn't it?
MCAULIFFE: It certainly has. We thought after February 5th it would probably be over. It has gone on. But Lou, I make the argument this has been good for the process. Millions of Democrats have come out. Millions more voted for the Democratic candidates in our primaries and caucuses. It's good. We'll come together at the end, but let's let the voters decide, not a bunch of TV pundits who are saying it's over. Not you, you have been good. Lou, you have been very good. In fact, I am recommending a Clinton/Dobbs ticket in '08.
DOBBS: That would be, that would be spectacular. I am sure flattered, but in advance decline that the senator having to make such a choice. The idea, the idea, well, don't go backward on me, there.
MCAULIFFE: You pulled out. All right.
DOBBS: The idea that Senator Clinton is in this position, what is the scenario that takes her to the nomination in your best scenario?
MCAULIFFE: By the time we finish up the next six contests, which will be over in three weeks, she will have moved ahead in the popular vote and we believe will be within 100 delegates out of more than 4,000 chosen and then the arguments has to be, Lou, who is it that best can win the general election? Today Hillary Clinton wins Florida, Ohio, Missouri. Today in poll Kentucky has her beating John McCain in Kentucky. You win Ohio and Florida, you win the election. She is the best, her coalition of seniors, women, blue collar coming together. It's exciting, but it's up to the voters to determine, not a bunch of TV saying it's over. It's not over until someone gets the magic number to be the nominee of the Democratic Party. Everybody ought to stand down and let's let the voters decide.
DOBBS: The voters would like to decide, I'm sure, and many of them think that they are, but the idea here, too, is as you well know, Terry, Senator Obama has a lead on Senator Clinton, therefore, he is the preferred candidate, the only way to break it down further, are you suggesting because she is more popular with non-college educated white working men and women, because he is more popular with African- Americans. What are you saying is the basis for her being the better candidate?
MCAULIFFE: Because she wins, Lou, those states that we have to win in the general election. She won Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Florida. She won those key New Jersey, key battleground states. Senator Obama won a great of great states. Idaho, Utah. We won't win those in the general election. We have to win the basket of states in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Florida. Hillary won all of those pretty much with double-digit leads. She will win tomorrow in West Virginia. She's going to win in Kentucky.
DOBBS: By how much?
MCAULIFFE: I think she wins by 20 plus points and this is a state, as you know, that Bill Clinton carried twice. He won in '92 and won in '96. This is a purple state. We have to pay attention to these purple states, Lou.
DOBBS: All right. Terry McAuliffe, we thank you for being with us.
MCAULIFFE: You bet. Thank you.
DOBBS: Here now for more on what we can expect in tomorrow's West Virginia primary, our chief national correspondent John King who spends endless hours and days and nights analyzing all of this. John, what is that win 20 points plus in West Virginia mean for Senator Clinton?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: First, I have a hard time seeing Lou Dobbs accepting the number two spot on any ticket.
What does it mean, it would mean a number of things. Number one, it would accentuate her strengths. West Virginia is one of the whitest states in the country. It is 95 percent white. It is also one of the oldest states in the country, in terms of the demographics. It would give Senator Clinton a very powerful and persuasive argument.
You just heard Terry McAuliffe make it that she wins white, working class, lunch bucket Democrats, critical in a general election. She wins senior citizens, the most dependable voters in the United States of America. That's a persuasive argument and she has a good constituency. The problem is, she is peaking late, if you will. Obama has those leads among the pledge delegates in fund-raising. He has now passed her in the superdelegates.
Many believe what she is going to do tomorrow, Lou, most of all, is highlight in a very glaring way Senator Obama's weaknesses and some Democrats also say huge wins in West Virginia and Kentucky strengthen her hands as a potential vice presidential candidate if she cannot find some magical way to take the nomination away.
DOBBS: As you would suggest so kindly that I would probably not be interested in the number two position, but I cannot imagine her being interested in the number two. This is, this is a woman working hard for number one for a very long time.
KING: And that is what makes this so hard. If you talk to anyone who has run for the office before or who was involved in the campaign now, the candidates personally put in so much time and effort. They ask so many people to give up their lives and give up their careers to come work for them. They raise all this money. They travel the country. It is an incredibly hard and personal thing and frankly I've covered six of these elections and I don't pretend to understand the personal calculations a candidates goes through. All I can you is anecdotes you get from speaking to the people who have been through it, both losers and winners, about how hard it is and how personal it is and we should give all candidates space.
Terry is right in the sense that Senator Obama is not telling her to get out. He's saying, let's run out the process. Certainly some of his supporters would like her to get out because a big win in West Virginia and Kentucky again will focus all of us and the McCain campaign studying the polling, studying the research saying how do we get this guy? It is to a degree helping the Republicans, but so what? There are more contests left, let's vote.
DOBBS: 7 million of them and I have to say, without equivocation, it is inexcusable that the Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida, irrespective of the decisions made by their leadership are being denied a voice and a vote in this primary election when it's so close. It's absurd and the gamesmanship of the Democratic National Committee and the candidates themselves. You know, it is unseemly at best and down right ashamed for a democracy in this country, in my opinion.
KING: I don't disagree. I know we're short on time. I would only say this. All the candidates agree to these rules up front and so trying to change them now makes it difficult. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered, doesn't mean something doesn't need to be done but all the candidates running for office at the beginning said, no, Michigan and Florida don't count. So it's hard now to argue that they should.
DOBBS: Well, there is one reason, one very simple argument. One is it that it is still a rule of majority and maintain even a basic tenant democracy and the other is the candidates really shouldn't be making that judgment, should they? That should be a decision of this great democracy and all the enlightened leaders that make up the top of the both parties, Democrat and Republican.
John King, I think it is to your credit, still, that you don't quite understand the psychology of these candidates. Thank you very much, John King.
Up next here, Senator McCain blasts President Bush in a new effort apparently to win the support of independents. Our political panel joins me next. Stay with us.
And Nebraska state attorney general also joins me. We'll talk about illegal immigration in his state. We're coming right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, joining me now, three of the best political analysts, all LOU DOBBS TONIGHT contributors, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist, "New York Daily News" Michael Goodwin, Democratic strategist, Robert Zimmerman. Robert also national committee, national Democratic committeeman and Senator Clinton supporter, syndicated columnist, Miguel Perez. Do you want it declare here tonight so we can clean all of this up.
We just heard Terry McAuliffe say 20 points plus, what does she get out of that, Robert, in West Virginia?
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The actual delegate count I can't give you but it just speaks to the strength of her message and the bottom line through the whole process is the voters make this decision, not the political pundits, not the political operatives in Washington. I think it's to her credit.
DOBBS: Not those nasty superdelegates?
ZIMMERMAN: The superdelegates, I am one of the nice superdelegates, but the point is superdelegates are going to follow the popular vote.
DOBBS: What's the point? What's the point of that? Why have them? Just make more pledged delegates if that's the way it's supposed to work. That's a silly thing. That's a herd mentality. That's unimaginative. Come on, give us something.
ZIMMERMAN: I'll give you an answer for it. Superdelegates are ultimately elected officials, party activists they reflect the popular will. That's what's happening here.
DOBBS: When is the last time the popular will was reflected in Washington, D.C., on anything?
ZIMMERMAN: I'm talking about the primaries around this country. You have 50/50 split almost amongst the voters so far and the superdelegates are lining up 50/50 right now.
DOBBS: You feel better, Michael? MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: No, I feel worse, actually. Terry McAuliffe is one of the great spin masters of all time and Robert is working a close second here. But there's a bit of fiction. The race is essentially over. Tomorrow night, if she picks up a net of 10 or 12 delegates, she will be 165 behind instead of 175 or 180.
DOBBS: Including superdelegates.
GOODWIN: Right. Including superdelegates which in the last two weeks he's picked up 21 and she's picked up one. Clearly everybody in the party sees it is over. The question is, how is it going to end? That's the only issue.
DOBBS: Do you agree. Miguel?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Absolutely. I think it is a question of if, if it is not a question of if, but when and how she does it. Obviously, she doesn't know how to get out right now. She probably wants to get out on an upswing after the next couple primaries.
DOBBS: $20 million extra in the bank. She's $20 million in debt in that campaign.
GOODWIN: And counting.
PEREZ: But she's not going to get it back at this point.
DOBBS: That isn't the way it works? So, Barack Obama is it, is that your judgment?
PEREZ: It is my judgment.
DOBBS: It is a broker nomination, so, what's all the talk about not having a broker convention. They brokered the nomination. He hasn't got the pledge delegates. Neither one of them can possibly doing do it. What is the great, you talk about the great fictions, the great fiction here is that these candidates, either one of them will not be a brokered candidate. They haven't won anything.
PEREZ: The great mistake was made by the Democratic Party when they didn't reduce proportionately the number of delegates that are required to qualify. When they disqualified Michigan and Florida they should have lowered that number, lowered that bar. They didn't do that.
GOODWIN: And McAuliffe actually I think said over the weekend that he would, the Clinton campaign would accept reducing the delegates by half, which is what the Republicans did in Michigan and Florida. That wouldn't help Clinton, again, very small, but not enough to make a difference. No matter how this is cut, it is basically she is not going to pass him in delegates. She gets 95 percent of what's outstanding.
DOBBS: Again, I'm lost. These are, let me tell you how lost I am. Then you could fix it.
GOODWIN: Bread crumbs.
DOBBS: It's about the pledge delegates and the superdelegates weigh in and now the superdelegates simply follow the popular vote. So, what is the point of the superdelegate? I am completely and utterly lost.
ZIMMERMAN: Just have to clarify the premise you're working from. It's not about the pledge delegates or the superdelegates, but the voters and the caucuses and the primaries throughout this country. By June 3rd, that process is completed. Some person will have won the popular vote and perhaps win the delegate count. Then the superdelegates who are members of congress, governors, party activists, they should have a role in choosing the nominee.
DOBBS: Does Senator Clinton want to be vice president?
ZIMMERMAN: I don't have --
Is that what this is about? Because for me, it's about -- here's what it is about. I can't believe that the Democratic Party denied the vote to millions of people in Florida and Michigan, for whatever reason. The party leaders, all you folks in the Democratic National Committee completely, utterly absurd. Number one. Number two --
ZIMMERMAN: I don't accept responsibility for that decision.
DOBBS: Well, what's his name, Howard Dean. But the idea that we are not going to see a vote on an election, nomination process this close. Now, look, I understand all the Obama folks, they want the nomination. All the Clinton folks want the nomination. Both sides get mad at me when I say something this advantageous to one or the other. But the truth is, the truth is, this is the party elite deciding who the nominee is and you can't mask that, you can't camouflage it and you can't disguise it.
ZIMMERMAN: Worse than that, I'm even agreeing with you.
DOBBS: You're one of them.
ZIMMERMAN: I'm one of them, one of the Democratic National Committee members. The idea that a group, the Rules and By Law Committee will decide May 31 what the decision is inexcusable. The voters should have made the decision.
DOBBS: You still could do it. It's not too late to be pure for me and restore the virtue.
We'll be back with our panel in a moment. Let's check in first with Campbell Brown in the Election Center.
Campbell, what are you working on?
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Well Lou, we have a lot to report, but tonight we're going to start with the very latest on that terrible earthquake in China. There are now some 10,000 people that the Chinese government are confirming are dead. We're going to talk to our own John Vause who is in the quake zone tonight.
Then there is an important change in the superdelegate totals. As we get back to politics, we'll give you the brand-new numbers and see if there is any scenario where Hillary Clinton can still win the nomination.
Plus, with yet another member of congress in trouble, we're going to look at the stage craft behind surviving a sex scandal. Yes, we will. We'll explain that coming up at the top of the hour.
Lou?
DOBBS: Stage craft and scandal, that sounds intriguing. Look forward to it. Thank you very much.
We'll have much more with our panel and Nebraska state attorney general joins me. He's being criticized for not taking action against illegal immigration. It gets complicated. We'll be right back and straighten it all out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back with Michael Goodwin, Robert Zimmerman, Miguel Perez.
Miguel, basically, the reality is that some say Howard Dean broke the rules to strip all of these delegates, so, why doesn't somebody just sue his brains out and stop it and let's say the Democratic Party will restore itself to its traditions and its roots.
PEREZ: I understand there is a lawsuit that may do that, but, yeah, you're absolutely right. Look, the bottom line here is they messed up and they never knew how to fix it and they still don't know how to fix it.
DOBBS: Do you think Senator Obama should just say Senator Clinton we'll just do a redo in Michigan and Florida?
PEREZ: Absolutely. That is the only solution and, unfortunately, they're running out of time and money. They don't have the money or the time to do it now.
ZIMMERMAN: Look, I think Senator Clinton cares about this mostly because she's behind, of course.
DOBBS: That would be a powerful motivator.
GOODWIN: But for Democrats what they do have to worry about is a general election. These two states are very important states. Florida trends Republican.
DOBBS: You tell me one reason why a Democrat in Florida or Michigan would vote for either one of these candidates and not walk out of the Democratic race. GOODWIN: That's the incentive.
DOBBS: Because I'll tell you, you want to talk about somebody being foolish. You get treated the way the voters, Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida did, I can't even imagine what the rationale there would be to support that party.
GOODWIN: Right. And the fact that Howard Dean and his friends, I don't know if Robert was among them or not.
DOBBS: Howard Dean has friends?
GOODWIN: Well, his colleagues, that they didn't see this coming. It's amazing. The Republicans already did what the Democrats should have done earlier and the Democrats still walk right into this.
ZIMMERMAN: What is amazing the Rules and By Laws Committee is making decisions and not the voters. What is astounding it is being made on May 31 which of course nullifies its impact in terms of momentum and truly what is tragic that transpired is it hurts Democrats' credibility going forward in Michigan and Florida come Election Day. A lot of ground to make up here. Obama's credit now, as he is planning his strategy going forward, he is going into these states.
DOBBS: As he goes into these states, the question is, what is the Democratic Party? I mean, you people will have brokered a candidate and tried to pretend that you didn't and you will have avoided and then go into it and pretend you did.
ZIMMERMAN: Why he didn't fight harder for a revote without question. Why he didn't fight at all for a revote.
PEREZ: What is he going to say? Look, I'm here now because the party wouldn't let me come. This is why I ignored you all this time and now you should pay attention to me. It's kind of hard, don't you think?
ZIMMERMAN: I agree.
GOODWIN: I think, Miguel --
DOBBS: He wasn't going to argue.
GOODWIN: You pointed out before, Florida was going to be tough for Obama because he said he was going to meet with Castro. But Michigan is a real important state for the Democrats and that's the big one.
DOBBS: A lot of other folks to meet with, too. Maybe, maybe a few delegates at the convention first. All right. Thank you very much, Miguel, good to have you with us. Michael, thank you. Robert, thank you.
Still ahead, I'll be talking with Nebraska's attorney general about the illegal immigration crisis in his state. Stay with us, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, another local official taking action to deal with the illegal immigration crisis and state officials doing so, as well. State officials driven to action by the federal government's inability to enforce our border. Nebraska's Attorney General Jon Bruning said he won't file lawsuits to seek monetary damages on behalf of illegal aliens. That's the acquisition by his critics. Mr. Attorney general, good to have you with us. Welcome.
JON BRUNING (R), NEBRASKA ATTY. GENERAL: Thanks, Lou, good to be here.
DOBBS: You're being accused of not representing illegal aliens who have been victimized by discrimination, a serious charge. Why are you not acting?
BRUNING: In Nebraska, like every other state, our taxpayers have had enough and they don't want to see their state attorney representing illegal immigrants. Not enough money to go around the way it is. I made a decision my office isn't going to be the free lawyer for illegal immigrants.
DOBBS: What has been the reaction of the federal government?
BRUNING: The federal government has stopped paying the NEOC, the Equal Opportunity Commission, for some of the cases.
But listen, if discrimination does occur against Nebraska's citizens, I'm still going to act. The federal government can act. There's lots of ways to get redress. We're not going to stand for discrimination. I'm just not going to be the free lawyer for an illegal who wants to get money from a citizen of this country.
DOBBS: And is it your judgment based on empirical evidence that that's what's going on here?
BRUNING: Well, that's what the equal opportunity commission's asking me to do. The case they sent over, I mean there, was very sketchy evidence of discrimination to start with. This guy simply was asked for his driver's license, and he didn't like that. As you talked about earlier in the show, you have to have a driver's license to vote in some states. Well, he didn't want to provide it. So they decided it was discrimination, they sent it over to me, and I said we're not going to file it, there isn't discrimination, but even if there was you're not even a citizen of this state. And non-emergency benefits I don't think are a proper thing to extend to people who aren't citizens of the country.
DOBBS: To deal -- you know, that's an interesting position. Because they're complaining that you won't enforce the law. Yet you -- you put yourself in the position of, say, George W. Bush, who's not been enforcing our laws for some time. What is the recourse? I mean, I guess you're -- I don't know if you're flattered or insulted by the comparison, but this administration has refused to secure our border. It has refused to enforce our immigration laws. You're refusing to take action and being criticized for it by some for not enforcing the law.
BRUNING: Well, and there's other federal laws that say you can be prosecuted if you harbor an illegal. So if a landlord knowingly rents, you can be prosecuted for harboring. And there's federal laws that say we can't extend non-emergency benefits.
So the debate is are legal services from my office a non- emergency benefit? I would argue that they are, and that they can't be provided under federal law.
DOBBS: So what has been the reaction of, say, the governor, the state legislature, the citizens of Nebraska?
BRUNING: Well, the citizens of Nebraska have a lot of common sense, and certainly they have been very, very supportive. There have been those who have argued that I ought to prosecute these cases, but the governor's been very supportive. We offered a bill to the legislature this year to force state agencies to run a check on background before non-emergency benefits were provided. Legislature managed to kill that thing, but I think we'll see it again next year. I mean, it's important, I think, that we are judicious with our precious tax dollars, and that we don't spend them willy-nilly on anybody that's not a citizen.
DOBBS: And the attorney general of Michigan, by the way, demonstrating that the burden didn't rest with the state, but rather with the person who had violated U.S. law, namely the illegal immigrant. So it all gets very interesting indeed and very difficult for all of us, including those who are here illegally, of course.
We thank you very much, Mr. Bruning. Thank you very much. The attorney general, state of Nebraska. Thank you.
BRUNING: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Tonight's poll results -- 97 percent of you say all voters should be required to show proof of citizenship before voting.
We thank you for being with us tonight. Join us here tomorrow. For all of us, we thank you for watching. Good night from New York. "THE ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown begins right now -- Campbell.
