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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Edwards Endorses Obama; Plans to Build Border Fence in Arizona Stirs Controversy; New Concerns About Heparin; Gun Rights under Fire
Aired May 14, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Barack Obama accepting John Edwards' endorsement. As expected, a 20-minute speech given by Senator Edwards. And he wound up pretty strongly and for some considerable period of time before delivering that endorsement. But endorse Senator Obama he did. He did give a tip of a hat that may have been a bit strained in the way in which he did tip his hat to Senator Hillary Clinton.
We'll have to wait and see what the experts say about that. But nonetheless, a rousing endorsement from Senator Edwards. He brings with him 19 pledged delegates, which he won in Iowa and South Carolina and New Hampshire, so those will be, of course, of interest as well to Senator Obama as well as the well-wishes of Senator Edwards.
Right now let's go to Bill Schneider, our senior political analyst and get first his reaction to both the import and the, if you will, the presentation of the moment by Senator Edwards and the Obama campaign -- Bill Schneider.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, the timing of this is very interesting, because by coming out tonight, Senator Edwards has stepped right on what is supposed to be Hillary Clinton's news cycle. She won a big victory in West Virginia yesterday. She is trying to use that to revive her campaign to give her supporters hope that she can reach the finish line.
She gave interviews here on CNN a few minutes ago. We saw her interviewed by Wolf Blitzer. She was on other networks and here comes Senator Edwards to just try to deliver what he probably thinks is the coup de grace to her campaign. I'm not sure it is, but he's trying to really finish her off by endorsing Barack Obama, the timing is quite interesting here.
DOBBS: Well, as you say, the timing is interesting, the coup de grace, Bill Schneider, a lot of folks thought the coup de grace had been delivered. She seems about as agile in avoiding the coup de grace as anyone in politics. Senator Edwards' remarks I thought were sort of peculiarly patronizing to Senator Clinton. Did -- how did you see it?
SCHNEIDER: I wouldn't call them patronizing. I mean he praised her campaign. And one of the most interesting things is he in his remarks tonight and in his remarks during the campaign in January when he was still winning, he sounded a lot of the same things that Hillary Clinton sounded. That's why this endorsement is a bit of a surprise. His healthcare plan was closer to her healthcare plan. He even talked about universal healthcare coverage, which is something she criticizes Barack Obama for not having in his plan. There's no mandate for universal coverage.
He has always talked about himself as a fighter. We pulled out quotes from his campaign in January when he said it takes fight and toughness. And that's what I have. He said you have to be willing to battle the interest, you don't want to bring them together, you have to fight with them. And that's exactly he said what I'm going to do. Again and again and again he sounded the same populist themes as Hillary Clinton did and he praised her for her campaign, but here he is endorsing Barack Obama.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
Let's turn now to Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, your thoughts on this moment as Bill Schneider said, stepping all over Senator Clinton's point of the news cycle. What do you think?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the Democratic nomination fight is ending, it's not over, but this is the process of it ending. After today, if those 19 delegates as we expect go to Obama, Obama will be very close to 100 delegates to go. He'll be just about in double figures.
The delegate fight will be completely resolved, even though Obama's not quite there. The question is how unified does the party become? And I don't think Obama could have asked for a warmer or more enthusiastic endorsement than he's getting.
DOBBS: And let me ask both of you and Bill Schneider, as we look at those folks sitting there in Grand Rapids, Michigan, not a one of them citizens of Michigan will have their votes count. And all of this enthusiasm around there at a time when you would think reasonably intelligent and prideful people would say if you're not going to count my vote, why should I even bother with you?
TOOBIN: Well I think one of the things the Democratic Party...
DOBBS: It is a peculiar setting.
TOOBIN: It is very peculiar. One of the things the Democratic Party has to do to its house in order before August is to resolve this issue. There will be delegates from Michigan and Florida at the Democratic Convention. How those delegates are allocated is going to be one of the issues to be resolved in the final negotiations between the Clinton and Obama campaigns, but it will be resolved and there will be 50 states, not 48 states represented at the convention.
DOBBS: But really, Bill Schneider, your thoughts and I want to ask another question, as well. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, she has said that she wants the delegates from Michigan seated in proportion to the way they voted in Michigan. You know what that would mean for Barack Obama, he would not get a single delegate from this big state of Michigan because he wasn't on the ballot and he didn't get any votes. That would hardly be fair and he argues that would hardly be fair. The delegates from Michigan will be seated, but they will not be allowed to make Hillary Clinton the nominee.
TOOBIN: I think that's the compromise that will be reached.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, listen to our language here. We're talking about they will be seated. We're talking about this will be resolved and you mentioned 50, not 48 states seated. The reality is the Democratic nomination is going to be decided by the Democratic elite establishment, primarily the Democratic National Committee and not by the voters. And that is about as contravening of the Democratic Party's traditions and values as one could ask.
TOOBIN: Well, one of the so-called reforms of the 80s was to create the superdelegates, which was to say the part of this process, not all of the process, but some of the process will be the party leaders, will be the insiders.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well Jeffrey, we do understand that.
TOOBIN: I know.
DOBBS: The point is what in the world is this going to do in the general election? What's it going to do to the legacy of the Democratic Party? This is a brokered -- the Democratic leadership has said for sometime they didn't want a brokered convention. They brokered this thing right in front of the American people. The national news media is going right along with the Democratic leadership trying to act as if this is an election, rather than a brokered nomination.
TOOBIN: Well Obama one more primary, he's got more delegates, got more votes.
DOBBS: I understand that...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: He doesn't have 2,025 delegates.
TOOBIN: But that's -- he will get that with the addition...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: ... with the superdelegates. But somebody's got to win, why not have the person who got the most votes and the most delegates be the winner? DOBBS: But what happened to we're going to follow the rules, Bill Schneider, because the rules cost people their votes in Michigan and Florida, but the heck with the rules, we'll broker the nomination. How does that add up, how does that square up?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it was a very foolish decision in my view that the Democratic rules -- I can't remember what committee made -- the whole National Committee made it to just throw the Michigan and Florida delegates out for violating party rules. The Republicans just penalized them, half their delegation and you know what, Florida turned out to be a very significant primary in the Republican process.
DOBBS: You better believe it. You better believe it.
SCHNEIDER: Remember one other thing, back in 1968, I was around, I saw that convention. They were all superdelegates, all of them. There were no pledged delegates, the primaries didn't matter. Hubert Humphrey didn't run in or enter or win a single primary. It was nothing but superdelegates.
The big reform was to turn the decision over to ordinary voters and those ordinary voters have by a small margin indicated quite clearly that they prefer Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton. If she were ahead in popular votes, she'd have an argument, if she were ahead in pledged delegates, she'd have an argument, but she's not ahead in either one of those.
DOBBS: Well how about this argument? Why not permit the voters of Florida and Michigan their right as citizens and members of the party to have their votes counted?
SCHNEIDER: Well, the question is, I'm sure everyone would love to have a revote and they spent about two months trying to figure out how to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But this is...
TOOBIN: I'm not sure everyone would like to have a revote...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Barack Obama did not -- you know he could have had a revote if he wanted. But you know he was ahead. And he was running out the clock at that point, so...
DOBBS: It's hardball politics, but I think it's softball journalism. I think too much of the national media has sat here and allowed this to proceed as if it's not a brokered nomination. Talking about the nonsense, who has got the most votes, no one has the votes required to succeed to the nomination. And it's an artifice and frankly I think a bit of a canard to suggest it is anything other.
We thank you both for your analysis.
Any final thoughts here, Bill Schneider?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it is not a decided nomination. What the brokers are trying to do right now is to shut the process down because they're desperately trying to avoid the division of the party. So they're just saying, look, he's going to win, it's too difficult for her to reach that number. We want to stop it right now. A lot of Democrats don't want to do that. They say let all the people vote. And that's probably a good idea.
DOBBS: We're going to give Jeffrey Toobin the last word on the issue.
TOOBIN: Keep the date May 31st in mind because that's the day the Rules Committee of the DNC is meeting. The Obama campaign would love to have it done before then.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: But it's going to end either in June or in May. But a fight on May 31st could be really ugly because it's going to deal just with the issues you were raising. So over in June, over in May, May 31st could have a -- is an important dividing line.
DOBBS: It's on the calendar. Just about everything's on the calendar for the rest of this month.
Gentlemen, thank you very much, appreciate it, Jeffrey Toobin and Bill Schneider -- much more on the presidential campaign ahead.
Also, the battle over more fencing along our border with Mexico, Casey Wian tonight in Sierra Vista, Arizona on the border with Mexico, he'll have our special report. Casey?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the federal government is in the process of notifying people who live here along the southern border that more border fence is coming. We'll tell you what the locals have to say about that coming up, Lou.
DOBBS: Thanks, Casey, looking forward to your report.
Also one of Congress' most outspoken pro-amnesty advocates, Congressman Luis Gutierrez, is joining us here tonight.
And we'll have complete coverage of a court case in Wisconsin that could affect the rights of gun owners everywhere.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Alarming new indications tonight the Bush administration is more concerned about its relationship with communist China than the safety of American consumers. Again, the Food and Drug Administration is refusing to provide Congress with now the names of Chinese companies linked to that contaminated blood thinner Heparin. Heparin from China blamed for the deaths of 81 people in this country. Carrie Lee has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARRIE LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At least 81 people have died in the United States and hundreds have gotten sick from contaminated blood thinner Heparin. The raw materials in question came from China. Members of Congress requested a list of Chinese Heparin suppliers from the Food and Drug Administration at a contentious hearing in late April.
VOICE OF REP. BART STUPAK (D), MICHIGAN: Can you tell us the top 12 Chinese companies that have produced contaminated HPI, Heparin HPI?
DEBORAH AUTOR, FEDERAL DRUG ADMINISTRATION: I do know those 12 companies, however I do not know whether that is public information. I'd be happy to provide that to the committee if the committee makes a request for that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just requested it.
LEE: But two weeks later, the agency has still not handed over the information citing confidentiality agreements.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Before we turn over that information, we have to, of course, make sure that we can do our best to comply with our commitments to those countries with respect to confidentiality. We're working expeditiously to make the information available to Congress.
LEE: Congressman Bart Stupak is leading the investigation, he says the FDA is protecting the wrong people.
STUPAK: What confidentiality overrides the health and safety of the American people? Whose interest is the FDA looking at? This agreement does nothing but protect the Chinese suppliers and manufacturers.
LEE: The Heparin crisis erupted in February. At the April hearing, an FDA inspector said Chinese manufacturers barred the agency from complete plant access. What's worse, the FDA says it suspects the contamination was deliberate to boost profits. The agency says it has changed the way it tests for contaminants at the end point of production. But what it hasn't done is reveal what it knows about where these contaminants come from in the first place.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEE: Now, on Monday the U.S. Health and Human Services secretary said Heparin coming into the United States now is safe because of tighter testing and controls, but just last Friday, Lou, the FDA stepped up its Heparin alerts to hundreds of hospitals and medical groups across the country after learning that some of them in California still had supplies of that contaminated Heparin, so...
DOBBS: I've said this before, until this administration leaves office, and I have absolutely no interest whether it is a Democratic or Republican administration that succeeds it, this administration is filled with more incompetence and more so-called public servants who care so little about serving the public has to be absolutely contemptible.
This is an outrage and it is an obscene outrage on the part of the FDA and it is only the latest in what has been a string of such outrages.
Carrie, thank you very much, Carrie Lee.
That's the subject of our poll. Do you trust the FDA now to assure the safety of consumers buying imported products of any kind? Yes or no, please cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.
The Department of Homeland Security tonight under attack for it efforts to secure our borders, the Sierra Club and other environmental groups now are suing to block the construction of that border fence. Some border residents are now complaining the fence is taking too long and costing too much. Others want it up and want it up right now.
Casey Wian has our report tonight from Sierra Vista, Arizona on the border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (voice-over): Sierra Vista lies just a few miles north of Arizona's border with Mexico. Parts of the area are fenced, others are virtually wide open. Local residents and border security activist Cindy Kolb documents the environmental damage from illegal alien and drug smugglers, whose trail snake through national forests and private property.
CINDY KOLB, BORDER SECURITY ACTIVIST: Anyone in Coche (ph) County can leave home any day any time and see illegal aliens walking down the road or signs that illegals have been camping out right by their homes.
WIAN: Here a sleeping bag, blanket, and other trash are left under a bush not 50 yards from a house.
(on-camera): What's it like living under these conditions?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like my freedom has been taken away.
WIAN (voice-over): Less than a mile south, another fresh lay-up area, 30 feet from a highway. As a border patrol vehicle drives by, we find antibiotics, plastic garbage bags and an abundance of other threats to wildfire and the environment. A week ago Kolb found 23 backpacks in the same spot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're America; we're not securing the border. There is no homeland security America. It's not true.
WIAN: The Department of Homeland Security held an open house in Sierra Vista Tuesday night to inform local residents of its plans to build 44 miles of new physical barriers on the border near here. The Sierra Club and others are suing to block the fence because the Homeland Security Department has suspended dozens of environmental regulations to speed construction. Now DHS is trying to persuade the public it is listening to their concerns.
GREG GEPHARDT, U.S. CUSTOMS & BORDER PROT.: People have opinions, we respect their opinions. But we also have our nation to secure.
WIAN: Many locals on both sides of the fence issue remain skeptical.
JERRY WALL, LOCAL RESIDENT: It's a dog and pony show. It's hype. This whole thing is all hype. And so it's just a way to be able to give people the illusion that they're safe.
SUSAN WARNE, LOCAL RESIDENT: That trash isn't OK. The fence isn't OK. What will be OK is Congress figuring out what to do with the illegal problem. It's a federal problem. And they're not dealing with it.
WIAN: But residents of Sierra Vista and hundreds of other border communities deal with it every day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The border patrol told us today that additional fencing is one reason that illegal traffic in this area is slowing. Border patrol says apprehensions of illegal aliens so far this year are down 11 percent and apprehensions of drugs are down about 8 percent. And those are indications, the border patrol says, that there is less volume coming through this area, Lou.
DOBBS: Eight percent and 11 percent. Talk about a margin, I mean that's not a lot of bragging room there, is it?
WIAN: It's not. And residents here are incredibly frustrated by that. They've seen additional border patrol agents being added on the border. They've seen the National Guard here. They've seen billions of dollars of taxpayer money being poured into this situation on the border. And they have only seen marginal improvement. Some say no improvement at all in the amount of trafficking that's going literally right through their backyards, Lou.
DOBBS: You know out of curiosity, what is the mood of the town? What percent want that fence up? What percent want to continue with the mess that you've just reported on?
WIAN: It's hard to say. I'd say it's split about 50/50.
(CROSSTALK)
WIAN: There are folks who want the fence up yesterday. And there are folks who just are really skeptical because they've seen fences built over the years and they haven't seen any improvement in the illegal traffic coming across.
DOBBS: Well, Casey, you and I have spent some time along that border there. There's nothing like the double fence that the Department of Homeland Security is talking about. For the most part that fence is barbed wire and much of that barbed wire, in fact got connected to the rest of the barbed wire.
WIAN: Absolutely. And that's one of the things the Department of Homeland Security is trying at least to address. They're putting in more fencing that is solid. They're putting in vehicle barriers because in many places as you know, Lou, the vehicles carrying drugs and who knows what else can just drive right over the fence, so they're trying to stop it.
DOBBS: All right, Casey, thanks very much.
Casey Wian reporting from Sierra Vista.
The raging violence from Mexico's drug wars escalating into this country across our southern border, Mexico's police seem powerless to stop the violence. And now, three Mexican police chiefs in fear of their lives have requested political asylum in the United States. Those chief of police made those requests over the past few months, a top Homeland Security official telling The Associated Press that they had requested asylum and that it's being under -- it's being reviewed now.
Those officials not identified, of course. And six police officials in Mexico over the course of the past month have been assassinated, including the head of the Mexican Federal Police.
Well, Arizona's governor, Janet Napolitano (ph) tonight is cutting off funding for a successful program cracking down on illegal immigration in Maricopa County, the governor's office says it's diverting over $1.5 million from Maricopa County now to a statewide program to track down fugitives. That's what they say.
Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaoi has earned national recognition for enforcing immigration laws and he has arrested 950 folks over the past two years. Sheriff Arpaio says Napolitano's decision is nothing more than dirty, underhanded politics and he says he will continue to enforce immigration laws, money or no money. The governor's office not talking, they didn't return our calls. Last month Governor Napolitano vetoed a bill that would have required city and state police to enforce immigration laws.
Well two new Texas mayors sweeping the victory this week on strong anti-illegal immigration platforms. The mayors-elect of Carrollton and Farmers Branch, Texas both suburbs of Dallas putting forward a tough position on illegal immigration and making it the central point in their campaigns. Tim O'Hare, mayor-elect of Farmers Branch last year leading the fight to ban illegal aliens from renting apartments, that measure passed overwhelmingly. A federal judge blocked it until legal challenges to the measure can be resolved.
And Ron Branson is the mayor-elect now of Carrollton. He says his top priority will be ridding his city of illegal immigration.
Up next, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus has attacked this broadcast for reporting on illegal immigration. Congressman Luis Gutierrez is a member of that Caucus and will join me here.
Also an American gun owner sentenced to prison over a rifle that malfunctioned. We'll have a special report on what looks like, well, it looks like a railroad job. We'll be telling you about it.
And you need to be 21 to drink alcohol, but not to be mayor of a major American city. We'll have that story for you.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well gun owner David Olofson today saying he hopes to be free while his conviction on federal weapons charges is appealed. He was sentenced Tuesday to two and a half years in prison for owning an AR15 semiautomatic rifle that he contends simply malfunctioned.
Olofson's rifle fired two multi-round bursts after he loaned it to a neighbor to use on a local shooting range. This gun isn't supposed to fire multi-burst rounds and it jammed the two times that it did so. But instead of ordering Olofson to repair that rifle, the federal government charged the Army Reservist with transferring a machine gun. And he just got hit with a 30-month sentence to prison. Bill Tucker has our report from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): David Olofson showed up for his sentencing in Wisconsin with mom and dad by his side. They watched as Judge Clevert sentenced their son to two and a half years in prison and two years probation for transferring a machine gun. Afterwards, he offered this brief statement.
DAVID OLOFSON, DEFENDANT: Definitely disappointed. It went in a direction that we definitely were not expecting. And we hope that the issues will be resolved at a higher level at this point.
TUCKER: The sentence was consistent with what the prosecution wanted. A sentence they argued Olofson deserved. Assistant U.S. Attorney Gregory Hanstot (ph) noted that Olofson had two prior gun charges on his record. And he does, but he doesn't have any gun convictions. Both charges concerned Olofson carrying guns in public.
The first incident was at a park, the charge was dismissed. The second was a complaint that he was carrying a gun while trick-or- treating with his children. That complaint resulted in a conviction for disorderly conduct. Olofson's lawyers admitted that he had shown bad judgment but also noted that the behavior was within the law because in Wisconsin a person can openly carry a gun.
The government also contends that Olofson was the target of an investigation while he served in the Army. Noting that Army investigators were concerned about possible security breeches in military computers. The defense replied they had never heard of the investigation and noted that if true, Mr. Olofson went on to be honorably discharged and then to enlist in the Reserves with no objection from the Army. Olofson through his father denies ever knowing of any investigation.
DAVID L. OLOFSON, FATHER OF DEFENDANT: He told me just before that is not in his military records. So he does not know where it came from.
TUCKER: According to the prosecutor, there is a letter of administrative reprimand in Olofson's files. We spoke to the Army and a spokesman told LOU DOBBS TONIGHT that if an investigation had found anything serious, Olofson would not have been honorably discharged or allowed to enlist in the Reserves.
The arguments were enough for Judge Clevert who was outraged by Olofson's behavior. For Olofson's lawyers, the issue is not their client's behavior or bad judgments, but the nature of the offense he is convicted of, transferring a machine gun.
They argue the ruling has implication of gun owners all over the country.
BRIAN FAHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As I said in court, somebody who has an AR-15, for example, or some other semi-automatic rifle, they've got to worry that if you have some semblance of M-16 parts, well, you just may have a machine gun now.
Another thing is if you have an accidental misfire, it looks like you might also have a machine gun. And that accidental misfiring will go to things that aren't semiautomatic rifles.
TUCKER: The government does not see any new precedent in the case issuing this statement, quote: "The jury, based on the court's instructions, found beyond a reasonable doubt that Olofson knew that the firearm was a machine gun when he transferred it.
"The court's jury instructions on knowledge and the definition of machine gun were statutory definitions which have been in place for more than 20 years. We do not believe this is a new precedent or that legal gun owners have reasons to be concerned."
The case is being appealed at the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now Olofson's attorneys have appealed to the Seventh Circuit, Lou, and asked that their client be allowed to remain free pending the outcome of his appeal. It is the strict definition of machine gun in this case, which has gun enthusiasts paying attention.
Prior to this ruling, the ATF did acknowledge that certain semi- automatic rifles with M-16 parts were legal as long as they did not contain a part known as an auto sear (ph), an auto sear indisputably, Lou, turns that rifle into an automatic gun.
But Olofson's rifle did not have an auto sear. So as a result, a lot of gun enthusiasts are not worried that any gun which fires more than one bullet with a single pull of the trigger, even if unintended, is a machine gun and they're subject to prosecution -- Lou.
DOBBS: We're talking about six rounds of ammunition, two bursts, two rounds, which in the first burst went clear, a third jammed. Two rounds went clear, the third jammed. And this man goes to jail for 30 years? Is the U.S. attorney and the federal judge there absolutely -- are they out of their minds?
TUCKER: Well, you know, I've spoken with the U.S. attorney today -- spoken with his office. They clearly believe...
DOBBS: I mean, 30 months.
TUCKER: ... that they're doing the right thing, Lou. And, you know, that's all I can say. It does seem extreme that this guy, a veteran and a reservist, would end up in this position.
DOBBS: Yes, well, it's also peculiar that ATF would go after him. I said 30 years, I mean 30 months. I mean, this is extraordinary, ATF had said that they're going to deal with only violent crimes, you know, like narco-terrorists and so forth, and they go after David Olofson taking care of his three kids, a man who has been serving in the U.S. Army Reserves?
This is -- and by the way, the local paper there reporting that they testified that he knew it was an automatic weapon. That's not true at all. We went through -- I thought I was imaging things. We went through the transcript today. In point of fact, that is not what he said at all.
TUCKER: No, he acknowledged to the ATF and to the prosecutors that he knows what a machine gun is, but to my reading of any of the transcripts, he never said he knew this gun, this rifle was, in fact, a machine gun. It has been his contention all along that it was a broken gun and it was malfunctioning and needed to be fixed.
DOBBS: Well, this smells to high heaven. I want this thing absolutely continued to -- I want your investigation, if you will, to continue. I want to know exactly what's going on there with Mr. Olofson and why these forces, these powers have decided to come down so hard on an individual American citizen who served his nation and done so with an honorable discharge.
And I want to find out why they're playing such games with the media, as well. Because this is absolutely outrageous. The people of Wisconsin putting up with this nonsense from their federal court bench and from their local officials there. I mean, it's crazy. Bill, thank you very much. Bill Tucker.
TUCKER: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Gun owner David Olofson's conviction on federal gun charges is, as Bill Tucker reported, being appealed. His attorneys are hoping that the appellate court will allow him to remain free while the appeal is decided. One of David Olofson's attorneys is Brian Fahl, and you just met him there in Bill Tucker's piece.
And the issue is, what did the jury think and why? Why did they bring such heavy charges with such, such severe penalties against David Olofson? So we're going to talk to Brian Fahl right now.
And it's good to have you with us, Brian Fahl.
FAHL: Thanks for having me here.
DOBBS: I've got to say, reading the paper there, this morning, I couldn't believe everything there. They suggested that Olofson was a lot of a problem in the military, that he had gone after computers, that he was a member of a militia, that he was some sort of -- you know, absolutely crazed gun nut.
What in the world is going on there?
FAHL: Well, I can't comment entirely on this because the matter is going to be subject to further litigation. But what I can tell you is that Mr. Olofson, after this alleged incident, was -- received an honorable discharge and was allowed to reenlist to the Army.
And in fact, I think -- I believe he received an accommodation for his service during that time period. I'm not aware of anything else at this time. We have...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Have you ever heard -- had you ever heard such allegations before reading it in the paper?
FAHL: No -- well, I heard it, the government's sensing (ph) memorandum indicated these things, but that was the first I had heard of it.
DOBBS: This is -- so how did you lose this? This seems like such a stupid -- I mean, a completely irresponsible action on the part of the prosecutor, the U.S. attorney's office, frankly, and the ATF for whom I've got great respect, they've got tough jobs, but to come down against an American citizen like that for what happened on a range, it's incomprehensible. How could you not win that case at jury?
FAHL: Well, Lou, the issue here again was the matter of the statute. And the judge adhered to the plain language, which says, no matter what happens, no matter how it happens, if it fires more than once, it's a machine gun and that's the plain language of the statute.
What we had argued for was for a more common sense reading of the statute, one that wouldn't say that malfunctions shouldn't count.
DOBBS: You've even got precedent. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a conviction very similar to this one. FAHL: Correct, and there's an ATF ruling, ruling 81-4 (ph) that discusses this. I mean, this is not without some precedent in the law. But again, the plain language is also a strong thing. And the judge issued a -- you know, a very reasoned decision.
And the way the system works is we now have to go on and take this to the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals and make sure that there's a clarity in the law. This case can act to give clarity to what actually should be considered a machine gun.
DOBBS: What should be considered a machine gun? Without the auto sear, without a statement that he knew that moving the position -- the selector position to the third slot created automatic weapon, and then to suggest because it had a multi-burst, you can pull the trigger as you know on a double barrel shotgun or an over and under and get a simultaneous discharge as well, which would be in the clear, technical language a machine gun, it's an absurdity.
FAHL: Right. And that's correct, and that is the legal argument that we're going to pursue through the court of appeals, is that the statute as written, you know, lends itself to these absurd results. And therefore, the statute should be tailored or construed in a manner that...
DOBBS: Well, is the judge -- is that judge completely lacking in common sense? What happened to the jury?
FAHL: No -- and again, the judge, his decision was reasoned and well thought through. And it's one reading of the statute. And when the judge's reading adheres to the plain language of the statute. And that is clearly a reading that has some teeth. And I can understand where he's coming from.
DOBBS: Well, you may be able to because you have to practice before his bar, but I've got to tell you, I think the guy is out of his cotton-picking mind. I mean, there is no semblance of proportion here, 30 months in prison? This is outrageous.
FAHL: Right, and it was a very difficult time for Mr. Olofson, his family, and you know, they're just looking forward to taking this to the next level and pursuing whatever remedies we have.
DOBBS: Does anybody in that town care? In that state care what's happening to one of your fellow citizens? I mean, they're just sitting there like sponges watching it go by. And those -- by the way, what's going by are the Second Amendment rights of every American.
FAHL: Right, and there's -- the good thing is there's plenty of cases with the Heller (ph) case in the Supreme Court that may get some teeth to the Second Amendment and may provide relief, ultimately for Mr. Olofson.
DOBBS: All right. How soon do you look for that relief? How soon relief -- a decision from the appellate court?
FAHL: About six to nine months at the earliest. It could take longer than that depending on the issues.
DOBBS: You've got to be kidding. You've got to be kidding. Six to nine months.
FAHL: And that's why the first order of business for us is to ask for a stay from the Seventh Circuit, to stay Mr. Olofson's sentence while we...
DOBBS: Is this -- I've just got to ask you, Brian, is this the United States of America? Is Wisconsin still a part of it? Six to nine months? This is crazy.
FAHL: Yes, and that's just -- you know, it takes that long because the number of cases they have. You know, the process takes time. And we've just got to hope that in the end, you know, the process will come out with the right decision.
DOBBS: I have to say to you, I don't even -- I can't even believe we're talking about the United States. I mean, this is ridiculous. Six to nine months, what is -- the full weight of the federal government prosecuting this man, I think it's outrageous, I can't believe that the people of Wisconsin are putting up with this nonsense.
But then again, there are a lot of things I can't believe are being put up with in this country. Brian, thank you very much. We wish you luck with the appeal. Appreciate it.
FAHL: Thank you.
DOBBS: Brian Fahl, from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Up next here, Senator Clinton wins another convincing victory. You wouldn't know it by looking at the headlines, would you? Senator Obama wins a high- profile endorsement. I'll be talking with three of the best political analysts in the country. And a leading Hispanic member of Congress criticizes me on the issue of illegal immigration, Congressman Luis Gutierrez joins me. We'll have a lot of fun, I'm sure. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now in Washington, D.C., Democratic strategist and contributor Robert Zimmerman, also national Democratic committeeman, establishment elite of the Democratic Party, and a Senator Clinton supporter. He met with the senator, by the way, today, welcome. And good to see you there in Washington.
Here in New York with me, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist, New York Daily News and contributor, Michael Goodwin, good to have you with us, Michael.
And Ben Smith, senior political reporter, politico.com. Good to have you with us,. Ben.
Let's start with this, the headlines. There were none. This morning, counting and advertising Senator Clinton's 41-point win. Why not? I mean, The New York Times, The Washington Post, they dismissed it. Politico.com did, as well.
BEN SMITH, POLITICO.COM: I was up all night writing about West Virginia.
DOBBS: Oh, I know you were.
SMITH: I just think people were not reading. But as one of my colleagues said, the press has dropped out of this race before the candidate.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, the press has dropped out before the voters have. That's the real issue.
DOBBS: The real issue, Robert Zimmerman, is your candidate is still rolling on.
ZIMMERMAN: She's rolling on and it's not just -- even though I'm supporting Hillary Clinton, Lou, I can still do math. And the math shows me that based upon West Virginia and the upcoming contests, she can end this winning the popular vote. Right...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But she needs delegates, not a popular vote.
ZIMMERMAN: But since no one's going to have enough delegates to qualify to win the nomination, the superdelegates come into play, they're going to be persuaded by that popular vote.
DOBBS: Can I ask you something, Michael, what am I missing here? The reality is, we look at that sliver that separates these two in the popular vote, really. Why is the national media going along with this subterfuge, this absurdity, this artifice that this thing is over and that's it's not a brokered nomination?
They keep taking about the superdelegates. This is a decision by the Democratic National Committee about who will be the nominee. They disenfranchised the voters in Michigan and Florida, Democratic voters. And they're going to say that's it. I mean, it's going to be a very ugly legacy. And it would, I would think, taint the nomination of Senator Obama.
MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well, one of the things, Lou, that I think when you look back on the whole process, is that the Democratic Party has not had good leadership. Don't forget, the...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You don't love (ph) Howard Dean?
GOODWIN: Howard Dean has made a mess of it, but he has not done it alone, his minions have helped. Nancy Pelosi took over the party effectively just last year when the Democrats took the House. So I think they've been kind of rudderless. You didn't -- you know, normally the incumbent...
DOBBS: All right. That all said, what's the impact here? Because what they're really doing, this -- the Democratic Party no longer has a small d when it comes to democrat, because this is purely a rollover by the elites, right, Ben?
SMITH: Well, I mean, I think that they're going to have to -- they're going to have a lot of making up to do with the voters in Florida and Michigan.
DOBBS: Oh wait, time out, Ben. Seriously, you're not running for office here, are you?
SMITH: Well, there's a question of whether people in Florida and Michigan are going to vote on whether they got the -- whether they got to vote in the primaries...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: ... question is (ph) whether or not they should. Is there some rule I'm not aware of? Some atmospheric that would dictate that suddenly democracy doesn't exist and the two-party political system doesn't exist in Florida and Michigan?
GOODWIN: It's going to work fine. The Republicans are probably going to win those states as a result of the Democratic screw-up.
(CROSSTALK)
ZIMMERMAN: Let's not jump to any conclusions here. Let's not jump to any conclusions here. First and foremost, I've not given up on democracy in the Democratic Party. And I would hope the votes would be recognized in Michigan and Florida.
But I think the more important point here is that while the media has determined this race over, the fact is, we're getting record voter turnout and I don't think it should be dismissed. And, in fact, according to every survey that's being conducted, Democrats want this vote to go forward. And I don't think we should dismiss and say, oh, come on...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm lost, do you want the vote to go forward or do you not? I'm confused.
ZIMMERMAN: I absolutely want...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But you don't care about Florida or Michigan and those folks getting to vote?
ZIMMERMAN: Now, Lou, I have fought as strong as anyone you'll know to make sure Florida and Michigan... DOBBS: Well, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here tonight. Because I'm starting to hear a little political shift.
ZIMMERMAN: No. Not quite the -- then I wasn't clear. I have fought very hard to make sure Florida and Michigan count...
DOBBS: We're going to take a little break. And you can be even clearer when we come back, Robert.
ZIMMERMAN: OK.
DOBBS: I'll be joined as well later by Luis Gutierrez who is a little critical of my views on open borders and illegal immigration. We'll be joined by him shortly. We'll be back with our panel. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Campbell Brown in the CNN "ELECTION CENTER" where we are following tonight's breaking political news. John Edwards endorsing Barack Obama for president. At the top of the hour, we'll hear what both of them are saying tonight. And I'll ask our panel if this means the end of the road for Hillary Clinton.
Also Senator Clinton gets emotional while talking to Wolf Blitzer today. Plus the stagecraft behind John McCain's day in the woods. It is all coming up at the top of the hour. Lou Dobbs back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: It's amusing in some ways, and annoying I'm sure to others that after every one of these election victories by Hillary Clinton, the answer is, is it time for her to get out of the race? It seems to be dominating the media. The national political media is completely has completely dismissed this. Where do we go here? What will be the story? What's the narrative going forward?
SMITH: Well, I mean, I think what a lot of people are interested in is how Barack Obama confronts McCain. And what you're complaining about is this dismissive attitude towards Clinton. But I think people often say it's about the math. But really it's about the politics.
It's people -- I mean, Nancy Pelosi, for example, is a superdelegate who hasn't endorsed. There are a lot of superdelegates who haven't endorsed who are expected to endorse Barack Obama, and that's what makes it so hard for Clinton.
ZIMMERMAN: You know, Ben, we've been hearing about that for a long time. The so-called surge of superdelegates endorsing Barack. It has not materialized.
SMITH: Ten today.
ZIMMERMAN: The superdelegates are watching the voters. That's what it's about. GOODWIN: Well, but in fact the superdelegates are moving to him in a pretty steady movement. I think, Lou, to me what West Virginia is about, yes, Clinton won by a bigger number than expected, got I think 12 more delegates than he did.
But, in fact, I think it really points up his weakness. Now if he's going to be the nominee, which I believe he is, the weakness is growing, it's dramatic, and it's a real problem for the Democrats in the fall.
DOBBS: And you want to dispute that?
SMITH: It isn't growing and the exit polls are the same. The white working class voters have favored her over him everywhere. There are lots of them in West Virginia, so he got shellacked in West Virginia. And it's clearly something he has got to work on, but there isn't -- if you just kind of go to each state, you put together the demographics and you come out with the (INAUDIBLE) -- with the results.
ZIMMERMAN: If I can give you both any sort of comfort, Michael and Ben, ultimately let's leave it to the voters. We don't need the pundits or political operatives to call this race.
SMITH: Not so many left.
GOODWIN: It's a superdelegate talking.
ZIMMERMAN: That's right because superdelegates -- exactly, because we're going to look to the voters and the voter totals are going to dictate to a great degree what the superdelegates do.
DOBBS: Would everybody here agree without question that this is a brokered nomination no matter what?
ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.
SMITH: No, there are no brokers. Who are the brokers?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, there's one of them. Superdelegates. The...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: He doesn't count?
SMITH: He gets one vote. But there's no smoke-filled rooms, there's no -- I mean, John Edwards might deliver 10, but that's about as many...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: ... deliver 19 if he's going to deliver anything.
ZIMMERMAN: Excuse me, Ben, we're Democrats, these are smoke-free rooms. But the point here to remember is that ultimately because neither candidate is going to get to the required number for the nomination, it's going to come down to superdelegates and they're going to be led, as I've said, by the popular vote.
DOBBS: Ben says it's not going to be brokered, Michael?
GOODWIN: The superdelegates are -- under the rules they have equal votes as do the pledged delegates. So I don't seem them as a different -- I see them as just, you know, same vote.
DOBBS: Well, that's convenient, I think. And I see it as an interesting contest. We're going to see some twists and turns and maneuvers here that could make this compelling over the next few weeks. Thank you all. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Robert, way down there in the nation's capital.
Still ahead, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus criticizing this broadcast for our coverage of illegal immigration. Congressman Luis Gutierrez is a prominent member of the caucus, he joins me. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Congressional Hispanic Caucus is given to criticizing me for our reporting here on illegal immigration and border security. The Hispanic Caucus, in fact, sending a letter to Time Warner CEO Jeff Bewkes claiming that CNN is skewed in favor of quote-unquote "anti- immigration efforts." Time Warner, of course, not (ph) releasing that media either to the media -- that letter to the media or to us, for that matter.
Congressman Luis Gutierrez is a member of the congressional caucus -- the Hispanic caucus, chairman of the Democratic caucus immigration task force and joins me now.
Good to have you with us.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you, Lou, for having me.
DOBBS: I guess the first question is, why can't we get along?
GUTIERREZ: Well, I think that we believe specifically in your programming, Lou, that the coverage, when it comes to immigration, you call it the illegal immigration, we like to discuss it in broader terms, immigration, at least to a stereotype of Latinos in this country that were criminals, that we bring leprosy to this country, that we're building some four football field-wide superhighway, just crushing across this country.
DOBBS: No, no, you're not doing that, that's the United States government doing that.
GUTIERREZ: Well, let me just -- this is our perspective, that we come here and we only come here to get a free ride, to get government services, that we're crippling our hospitals and our tax system when indeed we don't qualify for Medicare. We don't qualify for Social Security.
DOBBS: You say "we." Who is "we"?
GUTIERREZ: Immigrants. Immigrants in general...
(CROSSTALK)
GUTIERREZ: ... specifically.
DOBBS: But I was talking about illegal immigrants. Illegal aliens. And you conflate them and call all people either here legally or illegally, immigrants.
GUTIERREZ: Let me finish. In terms of -- look, Lou, when I walk down the street, people don't distinguish -- I don't carry a letter on my forehead or on my chest saying I'm here legally in the United States, I was born here. I wish one day you could come to my office after I appear on your program so that you could hear the messages that are left in my office by citizens of the United States responding to my mere appearance on your program, calling, telling me to go back where I came from.
Well, it's kind of tough, kind of easy, maybe not tough, to return to Chicago, Illinois. We're all looked at suspects. We're all looked at suspects, especially, Lou, when every time -- and I understand that undocumented workers come here to this country. But not all are criminals. Not all of them are murderers and rapists.
As a matter of fact, the vast majority of them, Lou, work really hard to try to raise their families.
DOBBS: Congressman, do you watch my show at all?
GUTIERREZ: I do. I do.
DOBBS: And you've heard me over the years say the only rational actor in this whole mess is the illegal alien? You have heard...
GUTIERREZ: Say that again?
DOBBS: You've heard me say time and time again that the only rational actor in this is the illegal alien trying to improve his or her life. You've heard me say time and time again that the illegal employer of the illegal alien deserves the greatest sanctions in this mess.
You've also heard me say that those who conflate the illegal alien and the legal immigrant insult legal immigrants to this country and are trying to create a subterfuge rather than clarity and transparency in the issue by not distinguishing between the two.
Is that so -- and is the only way I could not be criticized by the Hispanic Caucus is to embrace open borders and illegal immigration? Because I won't.
GUTIERREZ: Well, Lou, I don't think -- I think you know that's not our challenge. I think you know that that's not the basis of our conversation. Most of the public should know that I reached out to you.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
GUTIERREZ: We had a wonderful lunch together.
DOBBS: Let's have -- let's do this.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: We're out of time, Congressman.
GUTIERREZ: OK. Sorry.
DOBBS: Let's have another one of those lunches. I'll invite you.
GUTIERREZ: OK.
DOBBS: There or here. We'll try to make some progress on reconciliation.
GUTIERREZ: And I look forward to that, Lou. I think the country is big enough for two Lous.
DOBBS: I think it's more than big enough. Thanks a lot.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you.
DOBBS: And I think -- by the way, we help each other so much. Luis Gutierrez, Congressman, thank you very much, Congressman.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
Ninety-seven percent of you in our poll said you don't trust the FDA to assure the safety of consumers buying imported products. Thanks for being with us tonight. Good night from New York, the "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown begins right now -- Campbell.
BROWN: Thanks, Lou.
