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Lou Dobbs Tonight
McCain Hammers Obama on National Security; Top McCain Official Quits; Border Drug Wars
Aired May 19, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf.
Tonight, Senator McCain hammering Senator Obama on national security again. We'll have the latest for you on this increasingly nasty little fight and who, if anyone is guilty of hypocrisy or even perhaps accuracy.
Tonight, the federal government wants to send inspectors to communist China to protect Americans from dangerous imports here. Does that make any sense? Is it a P.R. stunt? We'll have the answers.
And tonight, seething anger over Democrats' efforts to sneak amnesty legislation through the Congress piece by piece in the dead of night. One of the Senate's leading opponents of that effort is Senator Jeff Sessions. He's among our guests here.
We'll have all of that, all the day's news and a lot more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Monday, May 19. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Senator Obama, Senator McCain blasting one another in some of their strongest language yet, McCain accusing Obama of inexperience and recklessness on the issue of national security. Obama says McCain wants to continue what he called a failed cowboy diplomacy.
Senator Clinton, however, is telling both Obama and McCain she's still in the race. Clinton is campaigning hard on the eve of tomorrow's Kentucky and Oregon primaries. And guess what? The odds are improving for Senator Clinton.
We have extensive coverage tonight from the campaign trail. We begin with Suzanne Malveaux in Louisville, Kentucky. Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, Barack Obama spent the day in Montana making two stops, really, this is one of the sites of the last contest, two weeks away from now. What they are trying to do is really convey the sense to voters that, "A," they see the end of the tunnel. That they believe it is near and, "B," that he is ready to really engage in a new race.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (APPLAUSE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): The fight is on.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So John McCain gave -- oh, Obama doesn't understand the threat of Iran. I understand the threat of Iran.
MALVEAUX: Barack Obama versus John McCain over who is better equipped to take on Iran.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama has declared and repeatedly affirmed his intention to meet the president of Iran without any preconditions, likening it to meetings between former American presidents and the leaders of the Soviet Union. Such a statement betrays the depth of Senator Obama's inexperience and reckless judgment.
OBAMA: When the world was on the brink of nuclear holocaust, Kennedy talked to Khrushchev and he got those missiles out of Cuba. Why shouldn't we have the same courage and the confidence to talk to our enemies? That's what strong countries do. That's what strong presidents do. That's what I will do when I'm president of the United States of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MALVEAUX: The fierce debate over national security between the two, reflects the growing sense from both camps. This race is now between them. Obama now only mentions his Democratic rival Hillary Clinton in passing.
OBAMA: Whatever differences exist between myself and Senator Clinton, we are unified in the idea that whatever else happens in November, the name George W. Bush isn't going to be on the ballot.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MALVEAUX: Perhaps too early for a victory lap, but Obama is certainly acting like a winner.
OBAMA: Let's face it. Nobody thought a 46-year-old black guy named Barack Obama was going to be the Democratic nominee.
MALVEAUX: Wrapping up campaigning in primary states, Kentucky and Oregon, Obama has moved on. He's in Montana today which, along with South Dakota, hold the final primaries two weeks away. While Obama says he won't declare victory Tuesday night, his campaign has already put out a statement. Predicting Obama will reach a so-called major milestone by securing the majority of delegates elected by the voters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: But, Lou, as we know, even if he gets the majority of the pledge delegates from tomorrow night, that does not make him the winner. He will not have the number necessary to become the nominee. That is going to require the additional support of some more superdelegates. Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely, Suzanne, thank you very much. Suzanne Malveaux.
Senator McCain today also re-emphasizing his commitment to so- called free trade. Senator McCain saying he's -- if he is elected president, he will honor international trade agreements such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and wants those pending to be passed as well. In a speech in Chicago, McCain blasted Senator Obama's trade policies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: Senator Obama is fond of scolding others for engaging in the old-style politics, but when he plays on fears of foreign trade, he's resorting to the oldest kind of politics there is. It's the kind of politics that exploits problems instead of solving them. That bridge resentment instead of opportunity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: McCain demonstrating he's determined to continue this country's faith-based economic policies. Free trade policies at any cost. Policies that led to $6 trillion of trade debt and Senator McCain also facing new questions tonight about his links with high- profile lobbyists and corporate elites. Another top McCain campaign official has quit because of his work as a lobbyist for big corporations and foreign government. Dana Bash has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the trail, talk of reform is fundamental to John McCain's outreach to Independents as he tries to establish himself as a creature of Washington intent on changing it.
MCCAIN: There are many programs that I am against that favor special interest.
BASH: Off the trail, McCain is purging his campaign of lobbyists, an aggressive effort to deflect charges of hypocrisy. The latest to go is the most high-profile, Tom Loeffler, McCain's national finance chairman. A lobbyist paid $15 million by Saudi Arabia, according to "Newsweek." Loeffler left after McCain announced new, strict policies last week prohibiting any staffer from being a registered lobbyist or a foreign agent. New rules rushed into place after two McCain aides who lobbied on behalf of the military regime in Myanmar had to resign.
MCCAIN: We found out that this -- these two individuals had represented that country and so they left. And we will vet everyone very seriously and make sure that it's not a repetition.
BASH: Barack Obama pounced. OBAMA: John McCain keeps on having problems with his top advisers being lobbyists, in some cases for foreign governments or other big interests that are doing business in Washington. That, I don't think, represents the kind of change that the American people are looking for.
BASH: McCain has long been criticized for having lobbyists play key roles in his campaign. Top adviser Charlie Black was a senior partner in his lobbying firm until March when he retired with a severance package. McCain's campaign manager Rick Davis, gave up his status as a registered lobbyist five years ago, took a leave from his lobbying firm two years ago. But the firm can still use his name to recruit business since it's still on the letterhead.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: McCain aides say they should be applauded for new strict policies prohibiting staffers from lobbying and working with outside political groups, but privately some advisers concede these are self- inflicted wounds, something that could have been dealt with months ago, knowing it will be a constant question given McCain's crusade against special interest. And Lou, McCain was asked several times earlier this evening why it took so long to implement these new policies and he wouldn't answer the question. Lou.
DOBBS: And Rick Davis' name is still on the letterhead. What's that about?
BASH: Well, it's a firm called Davis Manafort and it is a firm that still exists. As I mentioned in the piece, he has taken a leave of absence and he has not formally lobbied there. But the firm is still called Davis Manafort, so if you're working there and people are -- want to do business there...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: ... they understand that his name -- his name is still there and, perhaps, if things don't go the way Rick Davis hopes with -- for John McCain, perhaps he'll come back.
DOBBS: Well of course, that would be a possibility for anyone. It is also interesting that we should, and I think we should note, that all three campaigns, Clinton's, Obama and you talked about Senator Obama pouncing, his came -- his campaign also has lobbyists. So does Senator Clinton and so too, obviously does Senator McCain still, irrespective of what is said and what appears on a letterhead, conflict notwithstanding.
The role of lobbyists here -- before anyone gets too excited about some of the precious denials -- Wall Street still remains the primary, let's say, bastion of financial influence for these -- all three of these campaigns. No one should make any mistake about it. And I think we would be derelict if we didn't point that out from time to time. Dana, thank you very much. It will be interesting to see how many more lobbyists go now from each campaign as the weeks unfold. Thank you very much, Dana Bash. A staggering number of lobbyists are trying to influence the federal government, of course, and, in particular, and most especially our Congress. In point of fact, there are 41,000, are you ready, 41,386 lobbyists. Yes, let me try that number one more time -- 41,386 lobbyists registered with the Senate Public Records Office. That is an incredible 77 registered lobbyists for each and every one of our 535 members of Congress and the Senate.
Drug companies are the biggest spenders on lobbyists, those companies spending nearly a quarter billion dollars in lobbying last year, that according to the Center for Responsive Politics. The Chamber of Commerce, the very largest of the business lobbyists in the country and of course spending just -- altogether just under $3 billion a year to influence your and my elected officials. Makes you feel good, doesn't it.
Well back on the campaign trail, Senator Hillary Clinton today reminded her opponent that she is still fighting. And she has no intention, she says, of quitting. Senator Clinton said Senator Obama can't declare victory without having the votes to win. Senator Clinton insists she is ahead in the popular vote, an assertion the Obama campaign disputes. Bill Schneider has our report on what some are calling fuzzy math and the silly season.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Barack Obama makes this claim:
OBAMA: If Kentucky and Oregon go as we hope, then we think we will have a majority of pledged delegates at that point. And that's a pretty significant mark.
SCHNEIDER: Obama is counting pledged delegates, the ones selected by voters in primaries and caucuses. A majority of pledged delegates would be 1,627. How many pledged delegates does Obama have right now; 1,612; 103 pledged delegates are at stake in Oregon and Kentucky on Tuesday. Obama needs only 15 more to back up his claim. That is likely.
Actually, you need 2,026 total delegates, pledged and superdelegates, to win the Democratic nomination. Obama now has 1,904. To go over the top, Obama would need to take nearly all the delegates on Tuesday. That is unlikely. The Clinton campaign raises the bar to 2,210 delegates for a majority, including delegates from Florida and Michigan. Clinton is making this argument.
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And right now, I am leading in the popular vote. More Americans have voted for me.
SCHNEIDER: Obama leads in the total primary and caucus vote. Suppose we include Florida and Michigan voters and don't give Obama a single vote in Michigan since he took his name off the Michigan ballot. Obama still leads, narrowly in total votes. Some Clinton supporters argue that caucus voters should not be included. Turnout is much lower in caucus states, there's no secret ballot and some caucus states don't even report vote totals. What happens if you exclude caucus voters, include Florida and Michigan voters and don't give Obama any votes in Michigan; then and only then does Clinton move into the lead in popular votes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Clinton says the superdelegates should pay attention to the popular vote, counted the way she prefers. Obama says the superdelegates should pay attention to the pledged delegates since they were chosen by the voters according to the rules. Now the party rules say all delegates should vote their conscience as long as they fairly reflect what the voters have said in the primaries and caucuses. Lou.
DOBBS: Well, what in the world have they said?
SCHNEIDER: Well, they've said they narrowly prefer Barack Obama, but very narrowly.
DOBBS: Well, depends on whether you include those votes in the caucuses, doesn't it?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DOBBS: And it does really make you -- I just think the question is absolutely irresistible. With an election that is this close, with all of the nonsense with the math, fuzzy or otherwise, the fact is that the popular vote is extraordinarily close between these two candidates. The pledged delegates are extraordinarily and historically close between these two candidates.
Neither has a likelihood of winning the 2,026 delegates necessary for the nomination. Therefore, why in the world would the leadership of the Democratic Party not insist that there be a primary election held for the benefit of those Democratic voters in both Michigan and Florida so that this issue for the Democratic Party can be decided and given great legitimacy to their nominee whether it be Clinton or Obama?
(CROSSTALK)
SCHNEIDER: Both candidates have said that they would be in favor of a revote. Obama demands certain conditions about who is able to participate and have lots of stipulations and provisions about it. The problem is the party can't just say go and revote. If they could do that, they probably would. The problem is elections are controlled by the parties in this case and by state law.
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa...
SCHNEIDER: And somebody has to pay for them.
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Bill. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DOBBS: The Democratic National Committee...
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DOBBS: ... can arrange for these primary election redoes in Michigan and Florida, period. And that is straightforwardly the fact. And the fact that it's not happening could well jeopardize the legitimacy of the nominee and it could also blow up and cost the Democrats dearly amongst the voters who have been disenfranchised in both Michigan and Florida.
SCHNEIDER: Well you are quite right. They could do that. They said they could raise the money. They have people ready to pay for the election. They could have caucuses if they don't want to have primaries. But Hillary Clinton doesn't want to have caucuses...
DOBBS: Well who would?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: We've seen how stupid these caucuses are. I mean they are an absurd artifact and they really need to be replaced by primaries, period.
SCHNEIDER: Well I definitely agree with that for a simple reason. Caucuses are no secret ballot.
DOBBS: Right...
SCHNEIDER: You have to vote in front of your friends and neighbors...
DOBBS: It's silly.
SCHNEIDER: ... and God and everybody.
DOBBS: They're silly.
SCHNEIDER: And I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Obama did do well in the caucuses because he's better organized, so -- you know but primaries, they are expensive.
DOBBS: Well doggone, we wouldn't want to have to pay extra to have democracy in action, would we? Bill, thank you very much. Bill Schneider.
Still ahead here, the rising number of us becoming victims of the drug war is mounting. Casey Wian will have our report from San Diego. Casey.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, from increasing attacks on border patrol agents to an American citizen shot execution-style in Mexico. We'll have the latest on Mexico's drug cartel wars coming up, Lou. DOBBS: And of course, Governor Bill Richardson just 12 days ago saying that the ambassador to Mexico, the U.S. ambassador should re- evaluate that travel warning for Americans going to Mexico. Within hours, the head of the federal police of Mexico was shot dead. Casey, thank you. We look forward to your report on a situation of rising violence, a great concern to this nation as well.
Senator McCain tonight facing charges of hypocrisy, one of McCain's strongest critics is former Assistant Secretary of State Jamie Rubin. He will be my guest here. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: At least one American is dead tonight. The latest victim of Mexican drug cartel violence raging along our southern bored with Mexico. Attacks against U.S. border patrol agents have also risen sharply this year. In response to those attacks, the border patrol is now fortifying the border fence. But, environmentalists and open borders advocates are among those fighting the border patrol's efforts. Casey Wian has our report from Otay Mesa near San Diego, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (voice-over): The bodies of four people, including one American, were found in a remote area near Rosarito, Mexico, a popular tourist destination less than an hour's drive from San Diego. Three men and a woman were all shot execution-style. The most recent apparent victims of Mexico's warring drug cartels.
GEORGE GRAYSON, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM & MARY: The cartels are working on both sides of the border. And there certainly are Americans involved in helping the Mexicans. When you have an execution-style killing that indicates foul play of the kind in which the cartels engage in and because the military is well situated now in Tijuana, activities have moved down the coast.
WIAN: Increasingly, Mexico's drug wars are being felt in the United States. Three Mexican police chiefs are seeking political asylum here after fleeing their posts. Attacks against U.S. border patrol agents have jumped nearly three-fold so far this year in San Diego. It is one reason the border patrol is now installing razor sharp concertino wire on top of border fencing along this violent stretch east of the city.
Next month, the Department of Homeland Security will begin work on another layer of fence and improved border patrol access roads west of San Diego at the notorious illegal border crossing point known at smugglers gulch.
JULIUS ALATORRE, BORDER PATROL AGENT: It's going to facilitate the rapid mobility of agents from point "A" to point "B" so we can respond to criminal activity or safety issues that are going on along the border.
WIAN: Environmentalists continue to try to block the smugglers gulch project, saying it threatens the nearby wetlands.
MIKE MCCOY, SOUTHWEST WETLANDS ASSN.: (INAUDIBLE) is one of the most important wetlands and ecosystems left.
WIAN: But their court challenges have failed. Advocates of expanded illegal alien rights are criticizing the razor wire installation saying it shows a disregard for human life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Now the razor wire is being installed on the second layer of fence which is well inside of U.S. territory. The border patrol says it has posted signs on the first layer of fence facing Mexico warning of the dangers. Border patrol says anyone who gets caught in this razor wire has already violated U.S. law and ignored those safety warnings. Lou.
DOBBS: You know these environmental groups, if I may say and I'll speak only for myself, my opinion is precisely that, not that of CNN, of course, but my opinion is they are complete idiots and being absolutely irresponsible because the environmental damage created by illegal aliens crossing into the United States, 25, I believe the estimate is, 25 million pounds of trash just in the Arizona side of the border alone. Where have they been? This is straightforward advocacy on the part these environmental groups on an issue of illegal immigration. It's -- it's absurd.
WIAN: And Lou -- it really is, Lou. And the environmental groups and the open borders groups held a press conference a few days ago down here near the border on smugglers gulch. They are teaming together to try to block these fence fortifications.
DOBBS: Yeah.
WIAN: They have different reasons but they are definitely acting together, Lou.
DOBBS: And, of course, the national news media is not reporting that. The main stream media is not reporting it because, frankly, they are in the tank in many cases, the -- this liberal national media of ours are in the tank with the very same groups that they are not reporting on, which is, to me, absolutely a dereliction of the purpose of journalism.
It's a shame to see what is happening with the national news media on the issue of illegal immigration and border security. And, of course it goes to the issue of the war on drugs, Mexico remains the largest source of methamphetamines, marijuana, cocaine and heroin entering this country and still the cries are muted (INAUDIBLE) for securing that border.
And meanwhile, you don't hear a single person crying over the increased number of attacks on our border patrol agents securing that border. The hypocrisy is shameless. The lack of regard for the nation's welfare and the well-being of our citizens is absolutely shameful. And, of course, this administration's absolute dereliction of duty and responsibility will be written about, I am sure, in history books for years and years to come. Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian reporting.
A showdown tonight over illegal immigration on the DePaul University campus in Chicago. Pro-amnesty supporters are protesting a speech that's scheduled for tonight by Minutemen co-founder Chris Simcox. The Minutemen, of course, are strongly opposed to illegal immigration.
Campus police telling LOU DOBBS TONIGHT that Simcox's speech is scheduled to begin within the next hour. What we will be witnessing, of course if it all goes as planned is a lot of groups protesting Chris Simcox and the Minutemen presentation and their exercise of free speech on the campus of DePaul University.
And, of course, the protesters will be protesting lawful exercise of free speech while the Minutemen are trying to stop those who are violating the law. So it does get a bit complicated, doesn't it, in modern American terms.
Up next here, many pro-illegal alien groups claim to be nonpartisan, even as they push overtly political agendas, their advocates, we'll have the story and tell you why they want to be as stealthy as possible.
Senators McCain and Obama, well, they are fighting over Hamas, the war on terrorism and national security. I'll be talking with a former State Department official and journalist who, well, he provoked the battle. We'll have that. We'll be talking with him next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Pro-amnesty open borders advocates across the country are combining to fight local people efforts to crack down on illegal immigration and the lobby state legislatures and even city government. Many of these groups call themselves non-partisan, non-profit organizations when in reality they are nothing more than advocates for illegal alien amnesty and, in many cases, open borders. Lisa Sylvester reports on the facade.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Local police in Prince William County, Virginia, are taking classes on how to enforce federal immigration laws. Not everyone agrees this is a proper role for state and local governments. Appleseed, a network of public interest law centers based in the United States and Mexico released a report saying it will deter witnesses and victims from stepping forward.
JOHN THESSIN, LEAD AUTHOR, APPLESEED REPORT: It strains our relationship with our community. It hurts our ability to be involved in community policing and anti-terrorism efforts.
SYLVESTER: Appleseed was launched by members of Harvard Law's 1958 class and is still run and operated by lawyers working pro bono. It's just the latest of tax exempt non-profit groups called 501(C)(3s) jumping into the immigration debate. Among others, the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, La Raza and the Southern Poverty Law Center. They all advocate amnesty trying to block immigration raids and defending illegal aliens in the deportation process.
MIKE CUTLER, FORMER INS AGENT: Increasingly, more and more groups are jumping on this bandwagon and while they may be referred to as non-profits, we know that there is profit to be found, whether it's membership, whether it's dues, where unions are concerned, whether it's commerce. There is an agenda.
SYLVESTER: Under IRS guidelines, 501c-3s must be nonpartisan. They can't support a political candidate or party. But they are allowed to take a stand on public policy issues. The executive director of Appleseed suggests they are balance. Their board consists of Republicans and Democrats.
BETSY CAVENDISH, APPLESEED: We do research and policy advocacy, but we absolutely don't do politics. So we take a nonpartisan research-based approach to looking at issues.
SYLVESTER: Maybe nonpartisan, but not without an agenda.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Now in the interest of full disclosure, Mike Cutler is from the center of immigration studies. This is a tax-exempt group 5013c organization. One of the biggest voices though pushing open borders is the U.S. Catholic Church, tax-exempt because it's a religious institution.
Lou?
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: So Appleseed is made up of pro bono attorneys at Harvard and the Mexican legal defense -- Mexican American legal defense fund, La Raza and the southern poverty law center and somebody is -- do they put that really right out front on their letterhead?
SYLVESTER: In fact, all of these groups are pretty clear what their agenda is in terms of -- but what they don't do is they often don't make a clear distinction between legal immigration and illegal immigration.
DOBBS: Lisa, what I asked was, does Appleseed make it clear on their letterhead who the members are, the law centers that are part of Appleseed?
SYLVESTER: They do make it clear which are the law centers. They also make it clear on who are their board of directors. These are members of law firms from around the country, Lou.
DOBBS: Yet, we seldom see that reported in the mainstream media that membership in the Appleseed Group when they do these reports. It's amazing. Lisa, thanks a lot. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
It's also the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe that the stealth amnesty groups should have to declare their political agendas clearly instead of trying to hide their purpose from the American public? And, oh, heaven forbid the United States congress? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com.
Time for some of your thoughts.
Dale in Nevada wrote in say to say, "Congress must have broken out the limbo stick because they are certainly seeing how low they can go with their approval rating by sneaking this immigration reform into a war funding bill." You couldn't be more correct and by the way, congress is at a historical low. That historical low 18 percent. And that is 11 points lower than even George W. Bush, who has equaled his all-time low as well.
Joan in Virginia said, "Lou, I'm appalled that U.S. senators would sneak an amnesty amendment into a bill needed to support our servicemen and women in Iraq. Is this behavior the change Democrats have promised? I am changing my status to independent this week." Good for you. And I think entirely appropriate. Welcome aboard.
We'll have more of your thoughts here later. Please join me on the radio afternoons Monday through Friday for the Lou Dobbs Show. Democratic strategist, Hank Sheinkopf, Republican strategist Ed Rollins will be joining me tomorrow to discuss the Kentucky and Oregon primaries. Also be joined Arizona State Representative Russell Pearce to talk about the impact of illegal immigration on Arizona and what they are doing about it. Go to loudobbs.com, loudobbsradio.com to find the local listings for the Lou Dobbs Show on the radio.
Well, it's official. America is for sale, America.com at least. The internet domain name American.com goes on the auction block as soon as this Thursday. Some experts say the web address can sell for more than $12 million. That was the record set by the way by sex.com. Tough competition? Not the best of company.
Up next, the McCain and Obama campaigns charging one another with hypocrisy on the issue of terrorism, national security. One of Senator McCain's strongest critics is former assistant secretary of state Jamie Rubin. He will be here with me.
And Senator Obama tells Republicans to, quote, lay off my wife. We'll discuss that with more of my favorite radio talk show hosts.
And senate Democrats using underhanded deceitful tactics to push their amnesty through in the dark of night. I'll be joined by one of their strongest opponents, Senator Jeff Sessions among my guests here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, the McCain and Obama campaigns are escalating their battle over which candidate has the best policy with which to fight terrorism or if not to fight terrorism, talk about terrorism. Former assistant secretary of state Jamie Rubin accusing McCain of hypocrisy for saying the United States should deal with the terrorist group Hamas. Or would deal with the terrorist group Hamas. At some point, the McCain campaign struck right back accusing Rubin of lying.
Jamie Rubin is a current Clinton campaign foreign policy adviser and joins us now.
Jamie, great to have you with us.
JAMIE RUBIN, CLINTON FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: Nice to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: You kicked up a bit of a ruckus in suggesting that Senator McCain was being hypocritical in his statements when he talked with you when you were employed at that time with Sky News in 2006. You inferred from that interview, obviously, that what he was saying is that there should be direct engagement with Hamas, correct?
RUBIN: Well, almost. What I asked him about was, should we continue dealing with Hamas, the Palestinian government, now that Hamas won. And he said they are the government. We're going to have to deal with them sooner or later. And he went on to talk about why they won the election. Said it was a new middle east. It was the most forward-leaning statement I had heard an American politician make.
And so I was struck two years later when he declared himself to be Hamas' biggest nightmare. I'm Hamas' nightmare and you, in this case, he was talking about Obama, and I happen to be a Hillary Clinton supporter, are their favorite candidate. So it seemed to me that he was switching positions very, very clearly.
DOBBS: How long after the election victory of Hamas did your interview take place?
RUBIN: A couple of days. It was around that time.
DOBBS: So when he says these things, one could imagine, and he says it will be in part it will depend more on Hamas' action than those of the U.S. that didn't give you any pause as a mitigating or qualify --
RUBIN: Well, not really because what he was saying in that second answer was, we're going to have to take a pause, look at what they do, look at ways in which we can engage with Hamas and then he said part of the relationship will depend on how Hamas behaves, meaning that the other part won't depend on how Hamas behaved. I find that confusing.
DOBBS: At no time Jamie did he say he we would talk with Hamas, without conditions precedent to that discussion.
RUBIN: Absolutely not and I never said he did. That's the weird part. All I ever said was that he was remarkably open to it.
DOBBS: Listen if you would, to this interview that occurred just by the way, days after your interview. RUBIN: Yeah.
DOBBS: With Senator McCain if you would.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think American diplomats should be operating the way they have in the past in working with the Palestinian government, if Hamas is now in charge?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They are the government and sooner or later we're going to have to deal with them in one way or another. And --
Hopefully that Hamas, now that they are going to govern will be motivated to renounce this commitment to the extinction of the state of Israel. Then we can do business again. We can resume aid. We can resume the peace process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: What do you take from that?
RUBIN: In a different interview, he said different things. And so what it struck me was that in this interview, I asked him a question, the way you asked me a question. He answered. The full answer. He didn't mention any of those conditions. So that's why I said, either he should just admit he made a mistake or changed his position.
DOBBS: Now you were writing in "The Washington Post" in an op-ed article. Your construction, your interpretation of what McCain said was one thing. Frankly, mine would differ. I would not have taken it as far. I would not put it as forward leaning as you on the issue. And in putting in balance that comment and the context of the time. That is, Hamas having just won an election, it seems to me that that's context that's critically important to understand what he was saying, and in the weeks that followed and Hamas intransigence on the issues of terror and rejection of the right of Israel to exist seemed to not be in contravention with anything at all Senator McCain had said.
RUBIN: Here's the funny part. I wasn't saying that Senator McCain was offering direct talks. All I was pointing out, what I think is demonstrably true. He was remarkably open to Hamas. And they were already clearly a terrorist organization for many, many, many years.
DOBBS: Sure.
RUBIN: Took responsibility for terrorist action after terrorist action.
DOBBS: Sure. Without question.
RUBIN: So, to me, what was the hypocrisy was for two years later for him then to try to smear somebody and say, you are the favorite candidate of Hamas. I'd be their nightmare was a far cry from what he was saying a couple of years earlier.
DOBBS: As you interpret it, I can understand your reasoning. As I say, my interpretation was not that. Obviously, it was not the interpretation of the McCain campaign. This -- we should put up what Jamie Rubin just said. This from Hamas adviser Ahmed Yousef who said, "We like Obama. And we hope he will win the election." Isn't it reasonable to ask why in the world Hamas, or one of its principal spokesmen would want to interject itself into the presidential campaign?
RUBIN: Sure, people can ask that. But, look. John McCain has been around a long time. And he knows when you say that your opponent is the preferred candidate of a terrorist group and I'm their nightmare, that he's trying to make a point. And all I'm saying here --
DOBBS: Rather artfully, don't you think?
RUBIN: Not really. I think to smear somebody as being a friend of the terrorists is a very --
DOBBS: Wait a minute. Barack Obama has said himself on public record that having the middle name Hussein will be an advantage in some quarters of the world. I mean --
RUBIN: Right. But that's not about terrorism. That's about the Muslim world.
DOBBS: Exactly. So I think --
RUBIN: Lou, this is America. To say that your opponent is a pal of terrorists, is a pretty nasty thing to say.
DOBBS: Had he said being a pal of terrorists --
RUBIN: Well being a favorite candidate and I'm the nightmare. All I want out of this is for John McCain to think twice before he ever again says I'm their nightmare and you, Barack Obama, are their preferred candidate. And I suspect he will think twice about it.
DOBBS: I think he may, but I suspect you will not hear him at any point constrain himself from saying that he will be their worst nightmare in this election.
RUBIN: Those words back two years ago don't sound like a nightmare.
DOBBS: Well, they don't sound like either engagement either, at least to this fellow. I appreciate it, Jamie. Good to have you here.
RUBIN: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Up next here, Senator Obama is telling the American people what to eat, how to heat their homes, whether to drive those cars, just to make other countries feel better? Perhaps that's not a fair interpretation, but it's mine. That story and a great deal more. I'll be talk with three of the most popular radio talk show hosts in the country. They'll decide whether I'm fair or not. You can decide. I will offer an opinion you decide. I don't know what the maxim is on that.
And outrage on Capitol Hill. Democratic senators trying to sneak their amnesty through in the dark of night. The Democratic leadership of the senate must be extremely proud of itself. Senator Jeff Sessions will be here. We'll be talking about that.
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DOBBS: Outrage tonight over the amnesty agenda of the Democratic leadership of the senate. Senator Dianne Feinstein and Senator Larry Craig combining to attach a farm worker amnesty bill to the Iraq war spending bill. They did it in the dark of night with the blessings of the senate Democratic leadership and no -- no public debate. Senator Jeff Sessions says it's a deliberate effort to skirt the will of the people, and he joins me tonight from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you with us.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ARIZONA: Lou, good to be with you.
DOBBS: These are -- this is just a little bit, you know, I am -- there's nothing about me, I think would be Pollyannaish about politics. But the senate leadership, if I may say, Democratic leadership is behaving in precisely the same way as the Republican senate leadership. I know you won't want to agree with it, but, I mean, it's disgusting what these people are doing.
SESSIONS: It's just unthinkable that they'd take a 100-page immigration bill that has no enforcement but only legalizes 3 million- plus individuals that are here illegally today and try to put that through on a supplemental design to fund our troops who are serving us in combat. It's just not the right thing to do. And I can't believe they will persist with it, but it passed and it's on that bill right now and that bill will have to come up before the senate before long.
DOBBS: Do you have an idea of when it's going to move to the senate?
SESSIONS: I should, but I'm really not sure at this point.
DOBBS: I understood it could come as early as the end of this week.
SESSIONS: I think that's very possible. The military is telling us they need this. When you wait very long, it puts them in a very difficult position financially to manage their accounts.
DOBBS: Did Senator Feinstein or Senator Craig. I thought he had resigned, by the way. I was a little confused about his sponsorship. Did either of them talk to you, any of their representatives?
SESSIONS: No, in fact, we talked some time ago about the AG bill itself. And then we discussed some possibilities of arrangement. But this was placed on the bill totally without my knowledge and I didn't know about it until I heard he was already passed.
DOBBS: So --
SESSIONS: A couple of interesting things. It will be about 3 million people, Lou, including families, who would be legalized who are now here illegally. But it gives, they say, it's only for five years. But, of course, what are we going to do in five years from now? But more significantly within that, goat herders, sheep herders and horse workers placed on a three-year path to a green card, which is permanent residence in the country.
So it's not just a five-year bill. It puts quite a large number of workers and how they chose those, I don't know. They must have been a good lobbyist at work. Maybe we ought to find those guys and hire them to serve the national interest. But I don't know how they got that through.
DOBBS: With the lobbyists spending almost $3 billion a year to lobby you all each year in both parties, you shouldn't have to go out and find them. Looks like you could swat about three of them just by reaching out. 41,000 lobbyists in that town.
SESSIONS: It's hard to understand why those three groups of people, goat herders, sheep herders and horse workers should be put on a guaranteed path to citizenship as opposed to some other groups that are affected by the bill.
DOBBS: Well, we're going to put, on our website, if people want -- I mean, this is outrageous. I don't know what you are hearing from your constituents, but this is just an outrage. People who want to contact their congressmen, senators go to loudobbs.com. We'll have something there where you can contact your elected officials and let them know what you think of it. It's disgusting. I got to say, I mean, are there any standards left in that town, Senator Sessions?
SESSIONS: Well, I worry about it because we were beginning to make a step toward creating some moral authority that our borders were not open anymore but being closed, and then when you run in and provide this kind of amnesty to people who came here less than a year ago, passed the border with our national guard, with the fence. So we're going to reward those who have been here less than a year is almost unthinkable.
DOBBS: Senator, I got to say. The leadership, the Democratic leadership of that senate is about as disgusting a bunch as you could ask for. I appreciate it. Senator Jeff Sessions, thanks for your battle and your efforts to win this one. What a mess.
Coming up next, Senator Obama already acting like he's the nominee of the Democratic Party. Senator Clinton says wait a minute.
And will Geraldine Ferraro break with the Democratic Party come November? I'll be talking about that and more with three of my favorite radio talk show hosts.
Stay with us. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Campbell Brown in the Election Center.
Tonight, lay off my wife; Barack Obama's message to Republicans. I'll tell you what got him so upset and what Obama and John McCain are saying about each other.
Also, a look at McCain's health with Dr. Sanjay Gupta and we'll preview tomorrow's Kentucky and Oregon primaries as Hillary Clinton tries to keep going to the very end. That's when I join you at the top of the hour. See you then.
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DOBBS: Good to have you with us and Mildred, WCV Radio in Detroit. Good to have you with us.
MILDRED GADDIS, WCHB IN DETROIT: Hi, Lou. How are you doing? Hi, everybody.
DOBBS: Let's start with the very issue of lay off my wife, says Barack Obama. What do you think?
JOE MADISON, XM RADIO: Well, I think she is fair game. You know, anyone who gets in this business is fair game. Unfortunately, the real issue here are the 527s. I have said this before. I think that's the worst political invention that we've ever come up with because you don't have a fingerprint. You don't know where they've come from. Anybody can put them together.
DOBBS: You don't think swift boating is such a good idea?
MADISON: I don't think any of it on any of the sides. I am so sick and tired of not dealing with legitimate issues that I -- I am afraid you are going to turn a lot of people off. The wrong people are going to stay home. This is terrible stuff.
DOBBS: Mildred, your thoughts?
GADDIS: You know what. I want to get back to your additional question about Michelle Obama. Because Lou, I think that that is going to matter. I've got to tell you. A whole lot of women like the fact that Barack Obama stuck up for his wife. Men don't do much of that anymore. But --
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, Mildred.
MADISON: She's right. Women are standing behind the men.
GADDIS: I want you to know --
DOBBS: At my hour, I'll stand behind my wife from time to time.
GADDIS: He picked up a few extra votes defending his wife. But as Joe just said, Michelle Obama is ought there on the campaign trail. She'll continue to be out there. And what she says does matter and it is significant. And all of the spouses and other people who support them will be out there and they'll have to deal with all the --
DOBBS: So is it fair game or --
GADDIS: Yes, it is.
DOBBS: Lars?
LARS LARSON, KXL IN PORTLAND: Lou, I've got to tell you. I stick up for my wife, too. But if I turned her loose to bad mouth America, I would expect that she would -- she would be fair game. She's absolutely fair game.
MADISON: She did not bad mouth America.
LARSON: Yes, America --
MADISON: Excuse me. Down right mean.
DOBBS: Let Lars let him finish.
MADISON: I'm sorry. I thought he did. Excuse me for interrupting.
LARSON: Joe, Michelle said that Michelle Obama said that America is just down right mean and average people can't get ahead or can't even pay their bills. That's just wrong. That's anti-American. And I think it's just incorrect.
MADISON: A lot of people -
GADDIS: That's not what she said.
MADISON: Thank you. She did not say that. I would challenge him to find that quote.
LARSON: I have the audio. I'll ship it to you, Joe.
MADISON: You don't have to ship it to me. Play it on the air and I'll get it off the internet. Save yourself some money.
LARSON: I'll send it to you. You can run it on your radio show.
MADISON: Don't worry. She didn't say that. We know what she said. It was said over and over.
The reality is, again, let us deal with kitchen table issues. Let us deal with the issue of fair trade and terrorism. Those are legitimate issues.
DOBBS: Let's talk about that. What we've witnessed here over the last few talks, just talked to Jamie Rubin and the issue is whether or not Senator McCain, as Jamie Rubin, Hillary Clinton's supporter, alleged in his op-ed in the "Washington Post," whether or not he was hypocritical about talking to Hamas.
We've had three days on that discussion, and most people right now don't understand Hamas' position and they don't understand the U.S. position, because most of the journalists covering it haven't taken the time to deal with those issues.
By the way, the candidates want to decide whether or not they're going to talk to an enemy with or without conditions preceding. This has been consumed first in debate with Senator Clinton, as well as Senator Obama, and now Senator McCain.
What are we doing? What in the world are we doing in this country when that's the discussion?
MADISON: Well, again, I think you hit it. The media has a big responsibility to know what they're talking about. And then that way, by using the First Amendment, we as citizens can put together intelligent perspectives to ask the candidate. We have a major role to be as bright and as informed as anyone else. And we don't fulfill that.
GADDIS: And you're absolutely right, Joe. The media is driving the content of the discussion in this campaign. We know what Americans are concerned about at this time. Americans are concerned about their pocketbooks. They're concerned about gasoline being $4 a gallon. They're concerned about when this invasion, when are people going to come home? They're concerned about all of those issues, and the candidates really have not been pressed on them and they've been allowed to just go around talking about whatever.
DOBBS: Lars, you get the last word here.
LARSON: Obama's got to be asked by some responsible journalist, when are we going to start drilling for oil, Senator?
DOBBS: That's all we are going to ask him?
LARSON: Well, we're going to ask whether you would sit down with a terrorist group like Hamas. I think Hamas is easy to understand. It's a terrorist group.
DOBBS: All right. Lars, thank you very much. Mildred, thank you. Joe, thank you. Good to see you.
98 percent of you say that stealth amnesty groups should have to declare their political agendas instead of trying to hide their purpose from the American public. And the U.S. Congress, of course, conveniently.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Good night from New York. "THE ELECTION CENTER" begins right now -- Campbell.
