Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
McCain Blasts Obama; Obama Misspeaks on Historical & Familial Event; Drug Cartel Violence in Mexico Escalates; Gaping Holes in Port Security
Aired May 27, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Wolf.
Tonight, disturbing new evidence of the out of control drug war raging in Mexico, and the Mexican government's absolute failure to stop the violence. New Mexico's governor, Bill Richardson, will join me and incredibly he still says the violence along our border is declining.
Tonight, a blistering new report about gaping holes in port security, congressional investigators blasting the Department of Homeland Security for, among other things, allowing private companies to police themselves.
And tonight, new indications the Bush administration wants to build that NAFTA superhighway from Mexico to Canada. It's a plan that left wing groups and open borders advocates don't want you to know about. We'll have that special report and I'll be joined by three of my favorite radio talk show hosts, all of that and a great deal more, straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Tuesday, May 27. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Senator McCain today blasted Senator Obama's policies on Iraq for a second consecutive day. McCain declaring he will never surrender in Iraq and our troops will come home with victory, as he put it. Senator McCain also criticized Senator Obama for his willingness to meet with anti-American leaders without condition.
Senator McCain tonight is holding his first fund-raiser with President Bush at a private event in Phoenix, Arizona. The McCain campaign says it's not trying to restrict media coverage of McCain and President Bush together.
We have extensive coverage tonight from the campaign trail and we begin with Mary Snow in Denver -- Mary.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, anti-war protesters heckled Senator McCain several times, prompting him to assert his stance on Iraq, but he really came here to talk about nuclear security.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SNOW (voice-over): Senator John McCain says neither Democrats nor Republicans have gotten it right for the past two decades when it comes to controlling the spread of nuclear weapons. For one, he wants to work more closely with Russia on nuclear disarmament and without naming Senator Barack Obama he took an indirect swipe at his likely Democratic rival over North Korea and Iran.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Many believe all we need to do to end the nuclear programs of hostile governments is to have our presidents sit down with leaders in Pyongyang and Tehran as if we haven't tried talking to these governments repeatedly over the past two decades.
SNOW: McCain has been repeatedly targeting Obama for his willingness to talk to enemies.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would initiate direct diplomacy with Iran. That is what I have said, and the reason is, I believe that the policy of not talking to our enemies has not worked.
SNOW: The Obama camp hit back, saying he'd been a leader in nuclear nonproliferation while McCain had not, saying quote, "No speech by John McCain contains the fact that he has not led on nonproliferation issues when he had the chance in the Senate."
Not so, said McCain's campaign, he'd been long involved in efforts to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: End this war! End this war!
SNOW: Subject of Iraq was forced on the table as McCain was interrupted four times by protesters.
(APPLAUSE)
MCCAIN: By the way, I will never surrender in Iraq.
SNOW: McCain also took Obama to task over Iraq saying quote, "He really has no experience or knowledge or judgment about the issue of Iraq and he's wanted to surrender for a long time."
McCain took direct aim at Obama for wanting to withdraw troops from Iraq, challenging him to a joint visit to the war zone. The Obama camp calls McCain's proposal to go to Iraq together nothing more than a political stunt.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: And Lou, the Obama camp added that Americans don't want in their words, false promises of progress, but deserve real debate on the war in Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: And it is clear Senator McCain has been in Iraq nine times while Senator Obama has only been there once and that two years ago. Why do they think it's a political stunt? SNOW: They are basing this on the fact that John McCain had agreed and one of his supporters had suggested that they go together, and they are defending that today, their position saying in their words, they don't need any more "mission accomplished" or walks through Baghdad because they don't believe that real progress has been made, and that was their defense.
DOBBS: OK, well Mary Snow, thank you very much.
Well Senator Obama tonight is facing intensifying criticism for saying his uncle helped liberate the Nazi death camp in Auschwitz at the end of World War II. Senator Obama made that remark during a Memorial Day ceremony in New Mexico, but as any student of history knows, Russian troops liberated Auschwitz. Candy Crowley with the Obama campaign now reporting from just outside Las Vegas.
Candy, did one of these people who wants to be president misspeak again?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, this has been a really sort of interesting day. Barack Obama came here to Nevada to talk about the home mortgage crisis here in the state, where there have been more foreclosures percentage-wise than anyplace else but you're right, a remark he made yesterday in Las Cruces, New Mexico, captured a little bit of the attention today on the campaign trail.
Let's take a listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I had a uncle who was one of the, who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz, and liberate the concentration camps, and the story in our family was that when he came home, he just went up into the attic and he didn't leave the house for six months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: Now, this was about, they were talking about the need to help veterans with mental health services post-war, talking about his uncle there, but as you mentioned, Lou, the problem here is that Auschwitz was liberated in Poland by Soviet troops. So this afternoon, the Obama campaign scrambled to look up family history and what they said was look, he misspoke.
In fact his great uncle helped liberate Ohrdruf, one of the first camps to be liberated, it was in Germany, it's a subcamp of Buchenwald, his uncle a part of the regiment that went in and freed that particular work camp. So they said the gist of the story is true, he misspoke, it was not Auschwitz but it was a sub camp of Buchenwald -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right, another campaign misspeak, a lot of that going on. Do you think somebody should put...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: ... create a petition to...
CROWLEY: About every day they give us something interesting.
DOBBS: Do you think somebody should create a petition to perhaps make certain that all of these candidates get enough sleep, do you think that would be a good idea?
CROWLEY: Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, listen, when I talked to the campaign today, Auschwitz, Buchenwald, obviously these are two very famous concentration camps and they said he simply misspoke, but as you mentioned, between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama we've had a lot of sleep-deprived statements lately.
DOBBS: All right. Well I still think we ought to consider that petition to urge them to do so, mandatory eight hours a night.
All right, thanks -- Candy Crowley.
CROWLEY: Absolutely.
DOBBS: President Bush tonight helping Senator McCain raise funds for his campaign, the fund-raiser being held in a private home in Phoenix. The McCain campaign has enlisted the president's help even though the president's approval ratings, of course, have plummeted.
Ed Henry with our report from Scottsdale, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two months ago, President Bush hinted at the delicate balancing act for John McCain to stand side by side with an unpopular commander in chief.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If my showing up and endorsing him helps him or if I'm against him and it helps him, either way I want him to win.
HENRY: While Democrats charge a McCain victory will be a third Bush term, the reality is not that simple.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator John McCain.
(APPLAUSE)
HENRY: Speaking about nuclear disarmament on Tuesday, McCain suggested he would take a tougher line with North Korea than the president has.
MCCAIN: The dictator Kim Jong Il has tested a nuclear weapon and almost certainly possesses several more nuclear warheads. It's a vital national interest for the North Korean nuclear program to be completely verifiably and irreversibly ended.
HENRY: But on Iraq, McCain is largely in lock step with the president, though he tries to distance himself by lashing out at mistakes made by former Bush officials like Donald Rumsfeld.
MCCAIN: I, too, have been made heartsick by the many mistakes made by civilian and military commanders, and the terrible, terrible price we've paid for them.
HENRY: On the economy, McCain is largely in concert with the president, after voting against the Bush tax cuts in 2001, the senator is now trying to woo conservatives by promising to make those very same tax cuts permanent.
MCCAIN: As president, I will keep the current low taxes rate, and I'll leave that trillion dollars and more with the millions of Americans who have earned it.
HENRY: But on the environment McCain has broken dramatically with the president, calling for caps on carbon emissions and suggesting Mr. Bush has not shown leadership on global warming.
MCCAIN: I will not shirk the mantle of leadership that the United States bears. I will not permit eight long years to pass without serious action on serious challenges.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now that fund-raiser here in Arizona tonight is closed to the media, so there will not be any pictures of Senator McCain and President Bush until about 9:15 Eastern Time, just so happens to be well after a lot of the news programs are already done for the evening and White House spokeswoman Dana Perino today tried to side step any controversy about this by saying look, President Bush will do anything he can to help the senator but ultimately it is going to be John McCain standing on his own two feet in this campaign, Lou.
DOBBS: Well I was taken by the fact that this fund-raiser is at a private home. That is a very small venue for what is typically arranged for a presidential fund-raiser.
Is that also part of the story here?
HENRY: It is. Originally this event was supposed to be at the Phoenix Convention Center. The "Business Journal," a newspaper here in the local area reported that tickets were not selling very well for the president and the senator appearing together and there was also a concern about war protesters being outside, so they moved it to a private home.
I spoke to the McCain campaign about that. They insists tickets were not selling badly, and that it was just moved to a private home because the McCain campaign has a policy on these kind of fund-raisers and they close them when they're in private homes. I can tell you the president has been at some private homes for other fund-raisers.
He's not always in large locations but you're absolutely right. This one was supposed to be at a large location. It was moved and while the McCain camp insists that's not because of bad ticket sales, when I asked them well how much do you expect to raise, they're not giving us any estimates right now, so it makes you wonder about exactly how much money they're going to raise, Lou.
DOBBS: Indeed it does. Thank you very much.
Ed Henry from Phoenix.
Away from the campaign trail, insurgents in Iraq, well they've killed three more of our troops in three separate attacks; 19 of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month; 4,084 of our troops have been killed since this war began; 30,112 of our troops wounded; 13,395 of them seriously.
Officials blame insurgents supported by Iran for many of those casualties. Tehran is also defying the United States and the rest of the world in its nuclear program. The International Atomic Energy Agency now says Iran may be withholding information from nuclear inspectors.
The information could determine whether Iran continues to develop nuclear weapons in secret. Iran is building its ability to enrich uranium at a rapid pace, enriched uranium, of course, necessary to manufacture nuclear weapons.
Coming up next here, scathing new criticism of the Department of Homeland Security on the issue of port security.
Lisa Sylvester will have our report -- Lisa.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Department of Homeland Security program that is supposed to improve domestic security has holes and gaps that critics say a terrorist could exploit -- Lou.
DOBBS: And we'll be also looking forward to your report, including a percentage of containers that are being inspected entering this country. It will shock, I'm sure, a lot of people.
Also tonight, drug cartel violence along our southern border. It's out of control. So why does Governor Bill Richardson want the State Department to reevaluate a travel warning for Americans in Mexico? Governor Richardson joins us.
And former President Bill Clinton accusing some news organizations of a cover-up. I'll be talking with three of my favorite radio talk show hosts. Please join us for all of that and much more as we continue here. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: While the Mexican drug cartel violence is out of control, at least two dozen people killed in separate incidents in Juarez and Culiacan since Friday including at least seven Mexican federal police officers.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Businesses and residents throughout Juarez, Mexico, locked their doors and hid over the weekend. An e-mail purportedly from drug traffickers warned that Juarez would suffer its bloodiest weekend ever with killings at public places all over the city across the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas.
Here a woman identifies one of 24 people officials say were killed over the weekend. Some were decapitated, an increasingly common tactic among Mexican drug cartels. But the death toll was typical of that experience recently in Juarez where more than 300 people have been killed in drug cartel violence so far this year. It's a byproduct of Mexican President Felipe Calderon's declared war on drug traffickers.
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: He has dedicated 30,000 federal troops to the border, which is about the amount of the surge of troops in Iraq currently. He's taking this very seriously. They have ramped up their intelligence efforts. The arrests have gone up. The shootings, the killing of drug cartel members have gone up and the extraditions to the United States have gone up.
WIAN: McCaul wants Congress to approve a proposed $1.4 billion three-year military aid package for Mexico's war on drug cartels. Last week the Senate approved a bill sponsored by Texas Republican Kay Bailey Hutchison to provide $100 million to help law enforcement in U.S. border communities battle drug traffickers.
JOHN WALTERS, OFFICE OF NAT'L DRUG CONTROL POLICY: They're as vicious as any terrorists anywhere, brutalizing people, mutilating bodies, decapitating people to intimidate others. They have to be brought to justice and the only way to get to peace and security here is to help the Mexican government by both reducing demand here and coordinating against these criminal organizations.
WIAN: Friday the Mexican government revealed nearly 4,200 people have been killed during its 18-month war on drug cartels, 450 were government officials, prosecutors and law enforcement officers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Today in the Mexican coastal city of Culiacan, seven more federal police officers and a suspected drug cartel hit man were killed in a shootout and in Chihuahua, authorities say drug cartels posted three banners with the names of 21 police officers they intend to kill.
Lou, you'll probably remember a similar hit list was posted earlier this year in Juarez. Half of those officers on that list are now dead -- Lou.
DOBBS: It's absolutely stunning, and this administration still not reacting to improve border security. The border state governors doing absolutely nothing to help with this issue and continuing to look paternalistically if you will toward Mexico instead of taking concrete action. Mexico remains the largest source of methamphetamine, marijuana, cocaine and heroin into the United States and this is just dereliction of duty. It is indifference to the welfare of both the American people and the Mexican people. It's unforgivable.
WIAN: Lou, the White House Office of Drug Control Policy said today that they are making progress on their end of the deal, at least in terms of reducing the consumption of drugs in the United States. They say that workplace tests, positive tests for methamphetamine use are down 51 percent over the past two years, cocaine use is down 19 percent over the past year. They say they are trying, Lou.
DOBBS: They are trying, without question, but the United States is still with just under five percent of the world's population consuming two-thirds of the world's illegal drugs. So I really don't want to hear that nonsense, frankly, from this administration on this issue or a host of others for its making so-called progress.
Casey, thanks a lot -- Casey Wian.
Up next, I'll be talking with Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico. He'll be giving us his perspective on violence in Mexico and along our southern border.
We'll also be taking on a host of other issues, but first, let's take a look at our poll. Do you believe securing America's borders and ports would help end drug cartel violence in Mexico? We'd like to hear from you, yes or no, cast your vote at loudobbs.com.
And up next, Senator Barack Obama has done it again. He's well decided to attack me for a third time. Now with me I've got to be honest with you, folks, three times and you're out and Senator Obama with me is plain out.
You will -- we're going to share with you exactly what the man said, how wrong he is, what he's done about it, and why he owes me an apology. And I'll be talking with three of my favorite radio talk show hosts about that, and more, and a shocking new report on port security, almost seven years after September 11th, this administration still hasn't got a clue about port security or border security.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "The New York Times" this morning had a three-column front page story on our border security crisis. But with a different take. The headline was, "Border Agents Lured by the Other Side, As Enforcement Grows, Corruption Cases Increase."
Well, it should come as no surprise perhaps that the newspaper of what is the liberal establishment in this country focused on corruption among border patrol agents rather than the crisis that is threatening both sides of the border. The heart of "The Times" report that corruption cases doubled over four years. They blame that on efforts to improve and enforce border security, but the number of agents working on our southern border has risen significantly from 9,000 in 2001 to 14,000.
"The Times" also, by the way, neglected to mention the increasing dangers that face border patrol agents. They forgot to point out that seven front line agents were killed doing their duty in 2007. Two have been killed already this year.
There were almost 1,000 assaults against border patrol agents last year and almost 400 of those assaults reported for the first four months of this year. And "The Times also made no mention of the gross miscarriage of justice against two border patrol agents Ramos and Compean who were sentenced to prison terms for shooting and wounding an illegal alien drug smuggler and then prosecuted by the U.S. attorney in Texas.
It would have been an interesting additional perspective for "The New York Times". A scathing new report to Congress confirming what we've been reporting on this broadcast for five years, the report blasting the Department of Homeland Security for allowing thousands of shippers and ports overseas the authority to police themselves and to inspect cargo headed for this country without adequate oversight.
Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (voice-over): The Customs trade partnership against terrorism program was created to boost security after the 9/11 attacks. Shipping companies voluntarily allow federal officials to examine their security practices. In exchange, federal inspectors reduce the level of scrutiny of their cargo. But a new report by the Government Accountability Office says the program has holes, gaps in the federal government's layered approach to security.
STEPHEN CALDWELL, GOVT. ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE: A hole in any one of those programs provides a weakness or a vulnerability that could potentially, you know, be taken advantage of by terrorists or others that wish us ill will.
SYLVESTER: The report found that the Customs and Border Protection Agency has made improvements since the 2005 GAO review that pointed out similar problems, but the report says there are still management and operational challenges. It says CBP is not providing enough security oversight and is having trouble making sure companies are meeting basic security standards.
For example, the agency does not ensure companies cleared for the program follow up on security recommendations made by federal inspectors. CNN analyst Clark Kent Ervin is a former Homeland Security inspector general and directs the Aspen Institute's Homeland Security program. He says the program may advance the flow of trade, but with a cost.
CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN NAT'L SECURITY ANALYST: It's clear what the benefit is to the companies. They don't want these inspections because obviously it slows down trade. It impedes their profits, but to the American people, it's a huge potential gap in our security. SYLVESTER: Customs and Border Protection declined an on-camera interview but in a statement said quote, "CBP has made significant improvements to the C-TPAT program's security criteria, the validation process, staffing and performance measures."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Critics including Clark Kent Ervin say the program relies too much on self-reporting by the shipping companies and that DHS doesn't have enough oversight power. One example, the Department of Homeland Security conducts these security audits, it's the companies that get to decide how much information to share with DHS, and what facilities they can inspect and Lou, we should mention that the percentage of containers being screened, only five percent -- Lou.
DOBBS: In other words, 95 percent of the containers coming into this country are uninspected.
SYLVESTER: And critics will say what this program does is it means that it makes it even easier for DHS and the Customs Border Protection to inspect even fewer of those containers.
DOBBS: Well it's insane and for these reports to go by, Congress doing nothing, this president obviously doing nothing, and meanwhile, this has been about the same level of inspection since September 11th of cargo coming into our ports. And no one will be fired, no one will be admonished, there will be no change of assignments, and the fools will go on.
SYLVESTER: In fact, that's one of the points the critics will say is we're going on seven years after 9/11, and if you take a snapshot of the system that we had before 9/11 and the snapshot of it now, there has not been a lot of improvement when it comes to port security.
DOBBS: Another legacy of this administration. And frankly, we should say of this Congress as well. Democratically-led or Republican-led, just unimaginable, unimaginable lack of oversight.
Lisa, thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Well time now for some of your thoughts.
Dave in Delaware said: "Lou your views on border security and the impact of illegal immigration on our society and our economy are dead on. If we can't trust our government to enforce the law, what can we trust our elected officials to do? This is madness."
You couldn't be more right.
And Esther in Florida: "After being a lifelong Democrat I'm switching to Independent. I'm a big fan of yours, Lou. Thank you for your continued fight to bring attention to border security and our border agents." And Darla in Oregon: "I was a Democrat for 50 years. I'm now an Independent. I think Independents will speak loud and clear in November. Keep up the good work." I certainly hope that that voice is heard in November and we'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
Please join me on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show". Join me tomorrow for the latest on the election campaign -- Mike Allen from politico.com, Clinton supporter Lanny Davis, pollster Doug Schoen and author. I'll also be talking God and politics with Tony Perkins.
Join us on "The Lou Dobbs Show". Go to loudobbsradio.com to find the local listings for "The Lou Dobbs Show".
Up next here, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico, we'll be talking about violence along our border with Mexico and we'll find out the latest from his perspective on the campaign trail.
Stay with us -- Governor Richardson next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well as we reported earlier in the broadcast, the raging drug cartel violence in Mexico and along our border is worsening but New Mexico's governor, Bill Richardson, says there's been a dramatic improvement in his view along the border and he wants the State Department to reconsider its travel alert for Americans going to Mexico. Governor Richardson joins me now from Albuquerque.
Governor, good to have you with us.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Nice to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Let me turn first to within hours, and I'm sure you're aware of this, within hours of your suggesting to Ambassador Garza that the State Department reevaluate that travel warning for Americans, the head of the Mexican federal police was assassinated. Seven other top Mexican officials have been assassinated over the past two weeks. The violence is raging through northern Mexico in particular.
Why do you see it, how do you see an improvement there?
RICHARDSON: Well, look, you're looking at a border governor, the first border governor to declare a border emergency. I put my own personnel at the border because the border patrol was not being fully staffed. I led with a bunch of other border state governors, asking the president to keep the National Guard longer until the border patrol was deployed fully along the border.
Look, I called the president of Mexico. I wrote him a letter and I said, Mr. President, there's enormous border violence, especially on my border. You know what? You're not going to like this, but he responded. He sent close to 3,000 troops and equipment to Juarez, and Polomas and made a concrete effort to deal with the problem. As you know, the drug cartels are fighting him because he's getting tough on them so there was a little bit of an improvement.
DOBBS: Governor, you may not like this. I was amongst the very first to compliment President Calderon for moving against the drug cartels but what you may not like also when you talk about the 3,000 troops he didn't move them to the border. He moved them primarily to Juarez where about 25 people a weekend get murdered there in the drug violence and they still, even with 3,000 troops in Juarez, has not been able to slow the violence, not even slow it, let alone end it.
RICHARDSON: Well, he put 500 on the New Mexico side in Polomas. Look, he is trying. I mean this guy is really trying, and we've got to give him credit. He's the first Mexican president to take on the drug cartel, which is violent, which is strong, which is going after his police officers.
DOBBS: You mean, Vicente Fox wasn't doing that?
RICHARDSON: No.
DOBBS: This administration is talking about how effective and significant Vicente Fox's administration was in the war on drugs. Do you mean we were being lied to by this administration? I can't imagine that.
RICHARDSON: Well, this is the first president, Calderon, who has been very serious about this. A bunch of border governors, we're going to talk to him on Thursday in Mexico City. You know, this is serious, Lou, but we, as border state governors, we need help from the federal government. This is a federal responsibility.
Why do I have to put New Mexico law enforcement at the border to deal with illegal immigration, drugs, and violence? I mean why can't the National Guard stay beyond July --
DOBBS: How many national guard, do you know how many national guardsmen are near the border? They've never been on it, as you know. How many are across the 2,000-mile border are near the borders, Bill? We're down to 1,500 national guardsmen.
RICHARDSON: They've done a good job, Lou.
DOBBS: I'm not arguing that. They've done as good a job as one- fourth of those deployed could do for the same mission it's an absurdity and you know that.
RICHARDSON: Look, I'm a border state governor.
DOBBS: I know that.
RICHARDSON: This is a federal responsibility and what we need is more border patrol agents, double them, more technology. We need the National Guard to be here. DOBBS: How about a double fence built along that southern border?
RICHARDSON: You know, Lou, a fence is not going to work.
DOBBS: How do you know? How do you know? It's worked everywhere they build it. Smugglers gulch in California.
RICHARDSON: Listen, I'm on the border. You're in the studio in New York. How do you know?
DOBBS: Partner, I wasn't born in a studio.
RICHARDSON: How do you know it's going to work?
DOBBS: I've been across the border in New Mexico, Arizona. And California.
RICHARDSON: If it's 12-foot fence, they have 13-foot ladders.
DOBBS: Those are cute remarks but the reality is why is everybody fighting that double fence? You know what the reason is? Because they know it will work. And they know that it will relieve the pressure.
RICHARDSON: Lou, fences have not worked. You know the Great Wall of China, the Berlin wall, they didn't work.
DOBBS: Yes.
RICHARDSON: What we need is more border enforcement people, equipment, that's what we need. Have the federal government pass comprehensive immigration, employers saying --
DOBBS: Oh, for crying out loud, you want to game us again on that? That nonsense is over. Immigration reform comprehensively doesn't work. No one trust this is government or anyone else who talks that nonsense because they know it's a way to --
RICHARDSON: Do you think a double fence is going to do the trick?
DOBBS: How about four border governors certifying that there has been an end to illegal immigration that border is secure along with federal authorities and then we'll have the basis to talk about a rational, effective humane reform of immigration law and policy. We could have had this done, governor, as you know if we'd have done it three years ago when this real discussion started in Congress.
RICHARDSON: Well, you know --
DOBBS: We're not going to --
RICHARDSON: Lou, you're proposing no solution.
DOBBS: Sure I am. RICHARDSON: The board of governors have talked to the president.
DOBBS: You're going to keep talking amnesty and nobody's going to move so why don't we do the intelligent thing.
RICHARDSON: Nobody's talking amnesty.
DOBBS: Oh, come on. You're talking amnesty.
RICHARDSON: I am not.
DOBBS: The congressional budget ...
RICHARDSON: Your only solution is a border fence and that's not going to work.
DOBBS: That's not my only solution.
RICHARDSON: You need employer sanctions, you need more border patrol agents.
DOBBS: Absolutely, all of the above.
RICHARDSON: You need to have knowingly who hire illegal aliens be punished.
DOBBS: You mean maybe hold Calderon and any other president of Mexico, the Mexican government responsible for their own border security for being the provider of into this country the principal amounts of methamphetamines, excuse me, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, should we just ignore that?
RICHARDSON: Lou, you don't want to hear what I'm saying.
DOBBS: Sure.
RICHARDSON: But I'm telling you when the president of Mexico puts 3,000 troops, some in my border, to help contain the border violence.
DOBBS: Why don't I want to hear that?
RICHARDSON: I say he did the right thing.
DOBBS: I do, too.
RICHARDSON: You don't seem to be wanting to hear it.
DOBBS: Well maybe it's because you're not listening to me. Because the congressional budget office as you're aware, governor, already demonstrated that the comprehensive immigration reform legislation that you're now advocating would only deal with 25 percent of the illegal immigration problem along that border, and that it would provide a preponderance of the visas to the families of illegal aliens who would be given amnesty under that legislation for the next five years. Those are things you don't want the American people to know, but that's one of the commitments this broadcast has, is to the facts.
RICHARDSON: Well, this is what I want. Let me tell you what I want. I want the federal government to double the number of border patrol agents, give us more equipment. I want them to have employer sanctions; those that knowingly hire illegal workers should be punished. I want to have a legalization program that is not amnesty, that says that those in America, if they speak English, if they pay back taxes.
DOBBS: Do you want to do it in sequence?
RICHARDSON: I want to do it all at once. If do you it in sequence, it's not going to work, Lou. You've got to attack the push and pull.
DOBBS: Attack this diligent --
RICHARDSON: I'm on the border. I'm a border governor. You're in a studio in New York. What do you know that is so expert here?
DOBBS: I know this much. I know this much, OK, I know where the border is. I've been across the border on both sides of the border, across all four states there, OK? And --
RICHARDSON: Lou, I'm here every day. Every day.
DOBBS: I congratulate you. I thought you were in Albuquerque.
RICHARDSON: We're on border security.
DOBBS: If you can defeat it, I'll move it to your plan if you guarantee you'll move to mine if you can't defeat. Fair deal?
RICHARDSON: Go ahead.
DOBBS: You cannot reform substantively and meaningfully immigration law and policy in this country if you can't control immigration. Fair statement?
RICHARDSON: Yes. We've got to secure the border.
DOBBS: You can't control immigration if you don't control our ports and our borders. Do you agree with that?
RICHARDSON: Yes, but you also have to deal with the 12 million that are here, Lou.
What are you going to do, throw them out?
DOBBS: Why would you suggest I'm going to throw anybody out. I said a rational, effective, humane program but not --
RICHARDSON: What does that mean? Tell me what it means.
DOBBS: Here's what it means. Border security first, quit gaming the system. It's a condition precedent to real honest immigration reform the only way we can do it because the American people, governor, don't trust you, don't trust this administration, or the Democratic leadership of this Congress on the issue of illegal immigration, because you all have tried the game. Every American in this country, and ignored the reality, border security first and then deal with the issue of reforming immigration law.
RICHARDSON: Well, Lou, I disagree, but you're eloquent and it's good that you raise this issue. But look --
DOBBS: It's good that you --
RICHARDSON: We need that, what we need more than anything you know, instead of just sparring and yelling, you need --
DOBBS: I didn't yell. Did you yell? I didn't yell.
RICHARDSON: No, I didn't yell. No, I didn't yell.
DOBBS: OK.
RICHARDSON: We need the Mexicans on the solution. We need the Congress to act.
DOBBS: Governor, I've been calling for investment in Mexico for years. I'm the one who declared we should put more investment in china than we have into Mexico and Central America and South America. I supported NAFTA from the very beginning because of one simple economic reality.
It's better, it seems to me, and more American, if you will, to make our neighbors rich if we're to enrich anyone as the world's wealthiest country. That makes great sense but not the way we behave. Instead we've listened to fast aisle fools like this administration -- made up in this administration of a lot of top officials, I'll put it that way who talk one way and do another.
RICHARDSON: Lou, but you have to put yourself in my shoes. As a border governor, I got to protect my border. You know, when the federal government didn't do their job, I declared a border emergency.
DOBBS: I give you credit.
RICHARDSON: I used local law enforcement, I called along with other border governors to say President Bush, leave the National Guard here.
DOBBS: Now you can take the next step, Governor, and do as Senator McCain suggested, we can begin by securing the border or did he change his mind and I can't remember where his position is now.
RICHARDSON: Well, he did change his mind but McCain had the first good position on legalization. Lou, I support McCain's legalization proposal, which is not amnesty. It says that --
DOBBS: Governor, we're going to have to end this discussion.
RICHARDSON: After a certain period you can stay and pay a fine.
DOBBS: I've heard it all and you have, too, I'm sure.
Governor Richardson, thank you, sir, appreciate it.
RICHARDSON: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Senator McCain issues a challenge to Senator Obama. I'll be talking about that and a few other issues with radio talk show hosts who happen to be among my favorite.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, Senator Obama is flat out wrong attacking the facts and me. We'll have a response and charges of a news media cover-up from former President Bill Clinton. I'll be joined by three top radio talk show hosts next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, three of my favorite radio talk show hosts. In Chicago, Steve Cochran -- WGN.
Steve, good to have you with us.
In Portland, Lars Larson KXL in Portland and Westwood One Radio Network.
Good to have you, Lars.
Here in New York studios with me, Wilmer Leon, XM Radio.
Wilmer, good to have you with us.
WILMER LEON, XM RADIO: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, let me start out with my favorite comment last Friday from none other than Senator Barack Obama. I'd like everybody to see what the good senator had to say. "There's a reason why hate crimes against Hispanic people doubled last year. If you have people like," I'm going to wait until they put up the full screen so everybody can read along. There it is. "If you have people like Lou Dobbs and Rush Limbaugh ginning things up, it's not surprising that would happen."
Wilmer, your reaction to that, then I'll give you mine.
LEON: Well, first of all, I don't know that the numbers are right.
STEVE COCHRAN, WGN RADIO: They're wrong.
DOBBS: By the way they're wildly wrong.
LEON: OK, OK. So the first point is, you got to be sure that your data's correct, and even if your data isn't correct, why pick on you? That's not a good idea. Not only you but any talk show host because those of us that control the mike, we will always have the last word. So that's really a fight you can't win.
DOBBS: Maybe somebody didn't tell Senator Obama that I wasn't running, what do you think?
LEON: Well?
DOBBS: Lars, what do you think?
LARS LARSON, KXL RADIO: I got to tell you something, you and I both know that illegal aliens commit a disproportionate amount of crime in this country. The fact that the majority of illegal aliens happen to be Latino is another factor that makes the Latino community very unhappy but the fact is that you're not ginning up hate and discontent if you have legitimate criticism of people who are in our country illegally and committing crimes, I see nothing wrong with that.
DOBBS: As a matter of fact, I'm the guy who says illegal aliens are the rational actors in the entire mess. It's the illegal employers of the illegal aliens, a government that refuses to secure that border, for a host of reasons, not only illegal immigration and war on drugs, potential terrorism, it would be a thought, would you think, could be absorbed by this president. Steve Cochran your reaction?
COCHRAN: Well, again, a good professional politician never lets something silly like the facts get in the way.
DOBBS: Well he didn't.
COCHRAN: It was a hack move. It was a hack move and it's one of those fire starter things. If you say Rush Limbaugh or Lou Dobbs, people's perceptions of what their friend told them they thought they heard or what they thought they saw becomes fact. It's a fire starter, throw another log on.
DOBBS: As an Independent Populist, I'm always delighted to be attacked by Republicans or Democrats. I'd like to share with everybody the relevant statistics and if we could put those up. The most recent year for which hate crime statistics are available is 2006 and I'm told by my staff those would be available. There they are -- 522 incidents against Hispanics in 2005, 576 incidents in 2006. So by whatever measure, it's about a 10 percent increase.
But here's the thing, folks -- 2,500 attacks against African- Americans in this country, more attacks against gays in this country. More attacks, greater increases. Hate crimes against the mentally and physically disabled in this country, and we've got a U.S. senator running for president of the United States who can't even get that straight, and then attacks me and distorts and misrepresents me in this entire issue. I say the man doesn't deserve to be taken with any credibility at all.
LARSON: You know what he's after Lou. He warrants the Hispanic voters that Hillary has and he thinks by pandering on the illegal issue he'll get more Hispanic voters.
LEON: He's not alone in terms of misspeaking and misrepresenting the facts.
DOBBS: He is when it comes to my name.
LEON: And I say it, attacking you was a bad idea and attacking any host again because you don't control the mike.
DOBBS: This is the third time, Wilmer, he's attacked me, third time and I got to tell you, the man, as far as I'm concerned, stick the fork in, he's done. I have no use for the man.
LEON: I understand.
COCHRAN: But here's the deal, Lou. Lou he owes you an apology which you're not going to get or he owes you something that would matter more, ought to show up on the show and have an open debate with you on the facts.
DOBBS: Come on, I'm not part of his adoring news media that is in the tank for him. As a matter of fact, I'm very much --
COCHRAN: That's why --
DOBBS: -- a little disillusioned by this so-called presidential --
LARSON: You got him on the show, maybe you could get him to explain the points of difference between his amnesty plan and John McCain's amnesty plan.
DOBBS: Lars that's a great idea. Wilmer is even laughing about that one. We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me again, Steve Cochran, Lars Larson, Wilmer Leon.
Steve Cochran, we've had more candidates misspeaking this year. I mean it's extraordinary to me. What's going on?
COCHRAN: You know, for a sports analogy he seems to have been playing prevent defense for the last two and a half or three months or so and I don't know that's the way you win a nomination. I know the math generally works but here's the same old tired song with the Democrats, until they figure out what to do with Florida and Michigan, we don't know what the final results are.
But I just don't know that Senator Obama has put himself out there in a very good way preparing for a national campaign against McCain. It could be a very difficult summer, because he continues to stumble over his own words, as do most of the people in his campaign.
DOBBS: All right.
LEON: It's very important particularly for someone such as Senator Obama, who is going to be as closely scrutinized as he is, he has to double check, triple check, got to quadruple check the facts.
COCHRAN: You got to care about the facts. All three of the candidates have to.
DOBBS: It's true of Senator Obama but it's also true of Senator McCain and Senator Clinton.
COCHRAN: It's true of all three of them.
DOBBS: But they are so apparently overtired, that they can't function, you know.
COCHRAN: You know, the truth cannot be optional. The truth has been nothing more than optional for all three of them and America is not stupid. You said it a million times, all three of us said it on our shows, don't underestimate the population because they can see through. The BS meters are pretty strong in America and everybody's detectors are running on overdrive right now.
DOBBS: Senator McCain talking today in Denver about his plan to reduce the spread of nuclear weapons. Let's hear what he said to hecklers at one point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: By the way I will never surrender in Iraq, my friends. I will never surrender in Iraq. Our American troops will come home with victory and with honor and that is my message to my friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: All right, Lars, your reaction?
LARSON: That's exactly what should be happening. I liked his idea of getting Barack Obama to go over and have the senator look at what the lay of the land is now, two years after his last visit.
LEON: I wish someone would define victory. I just wish someone would define victory. John McCain keeps talking about we have to win, we have to win, we have to win --
LARSON: An operational Iraqi government.
LEON: -- well, what does that mean?
And also, we are in an occupation. We are not engaged in a war. We're in an occupation. You don't win occupations. You end them or continue them.
DOBBS: I think you're just -- LARSON: Except for this fact, the Iraqi government really is standing up. We've seen even over the weekend there were operations that were going on where the Iraqi troops are not only leading, they were the dominant force there.
And we are beginning to be able to stand down in some areas. That's the definition of victory -- an operating Iraqi government that can do the job that we've been doing for them.
DOBBS: Has senator --
COCHRAN: But you've still got a problem. You've got a three- state solution. Joe Biden has been talking about this forever. You have a three-state tribal solution which goes way deeper than any political or military move by people who haven't been in that region for their entire lives. So I don't know what victory means either.
And I, by the way, I was for going in, getting Saddam Hussein out because again, the U.N. proved that they were completely useless. But as of now, I don't know what victory means either.
DOBBS: Well for me, victory means this -- standing up the Iraqi Army and withdrawing our troops and leaving behind as stable as possible a solution and a society as we can in Iraq.
LEON: Maybe you should set the policy then, since you can define it, since the people that set it can't define it. Maybe you should be setting the policy.
DOBBS: We've had 19 of our troops die this month in Iraq. But this is an extraordinarily low total and, for me, that's an important measure of progress. It's something that a lot of people are not talking about. But I think it's something for which we should all be very, very thankful to see this kind of progress.
Wilmer, thank you very much --
LEON: My pleasure (ph).
DOBBS: -- Wilmer Leon.
Steve Cochran, Lars Larson -- gentleman, thank you.
COCHRAN: Thanks, Lou.
LARSON: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: The results now of our poll -- 84 percent of you say securing our borders and ports would help end drug cartel violence in Mexico.
Memo to the White House.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. For all of us, good night from New York.
The "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown starts right now -- Campbell.
