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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Presidential Candidates Battle over Energy Policies; Fighting for Independent Votes; U.S. and China Trade Talks; Levees at Breaking Point: Midwest Battles Floods; Cuba & China Tapping U.S. Oil
Aired June 17, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Thank you, Wolf.
Tonight the presidential candidates are battling over energy policies or the lack of them. Senator McCain blasting Senator Obama for supporting a windfall profits tax on oil companies, but recently McCain had said he was open to the idea.
Tonight, the federal government increasing its prosecutions of illegal aliens arrested in this country. It is perhaps a small success in the battle to secure our wide open borders, but there is little discussion of what is happening with illegal employers.
Tonight, the U.S. and communist China have begun economic meetings in Annapolis (ph) and aggressive China blaming U.S. policies for the dollar's decline and our credit crisis.
And three leader authorities on communist China join me here tonight. We'll have all of that, all the day's news and much more with an Independent perspective straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Tuesday, June 17. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, Senator McCain wants to open America's coastlines to oil and exploration, Senator McCain also blasting Senator Obama's plan for a windfall profits tax on big oil. Just a month ago, Senator McCain had said he was open to the idea, and the Obama campaign's efforts to build party unity may have backfired already. A former Clinton supporter booed at a party unity rally last night.
Is the Democratic Party simply shattered beyond repair?
Our coverage tonight begins with Dana Bash in Washington -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, John McCain's speech today showed how challenging it is for him to run as both a traditional Republican on issues like taxes and a Republican who bucks his party on the environment. What you get are some contradictions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice-over): In the heart of Texas oil country, John McCain went every Barack Obama for supporting a windfall profit tax on oil companies.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If the plan sounds familiar, it's because that was President Jimmy Carter's big idea, too. And a lot of good it did us.
BASH: Critical now, but just last month, McCain said he was open to the idea.
MCCAIN: I would be glad to look not just at the windfall profits tax, that's not what bothers me, but we should look at any incentives.
BASH: The change, proof of how tricky gas price politics is for McCain. On the one hand, he's pushing green energy alternatives like wind, solar and bio-diesel, pushing away from George Bush with this new ad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John McCain stood up to the president and sounded the alarm on global warming five years ago.
BASH: But in the face of voter outrage over high gas prices, McCain is changing his position on an issue that helped defined him as an environmentally conscious Republican. He used to oppose lifting a federal moratorium on offshore drilling. Now he wants to lift the ban.
MCCAIN: The broad federal moratorium stands in the way of energy exploration and production.
BASH: It's a risky reversal for a candidate trying to use the environment to appeal to independents, especially in the battleground of Florida, where many Republicans like Governor Charlie Crist and Senator Mel Martinez have long opposed offshore drilling. But as McCain changes his position, so are they.
SEN. MEL MARTINEZ (R), FLORIDA: It's an evolving position for him, as it is for me, as it is I think for a lot of Floridians who are now being tremendously upset about the high cost of gas
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Barack Obama accused John McCain of taking the quote, "politically expedient way out and said offshore drilling is no quick fix." Now it maybe an open question whether McCain's change on offshore drilling will hurt him in the state of Florida, but several Republican strategists in the environmentally conscience state of California tell us that this move makes what was already a long shot win for McCain there now near impossible -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well Dana I think we ought to point out that the most recent poll show widespread and profound support on the part of the American people for offshore drilling to try to deal with what is a new crisis in energy costs in this country.
BASH: That's the argument that John McCain and more importantly, his campaign has made. They say that the shift -- there is a shift among Americans because of the high gas prices that they see right now. And that's part of the reason why he felt it was OK to shift his position on this issue.
DOBBS: OK, Dana.
Thank you very much -- Dana Bash.
New drilling off the coast of the United States has been banned for more than a quarter century. In 1981, as Dana just reported, Congress approved a moratorium on new drilling off much of the American coastline. Every president since then has extended the ban.
The ban covers -- there you see -- 85 percent of this nation's coastal waters. Parts of the Gulf of Mexico and some waters off Alaska are open for drilling. It amounts to about 15 percent of the available area, and as Dana Bash just reported, Senator McCain detailed more of his energy policies; Senator McCain supports alternative energy sources such as wind, solar and nuclear power.
He also wants to end the federal ban as we've reported here on offshore drilling. McCain also proposing a summer gas tax holiday. Senator Obama opposes offshore billing. He wants to invest $150 billion into clean energy development. He also wants a windfall profits tax on crude oil companies. Obama is opposed to the gas tax holiday.
Senator Obama facing the difficult task of reuniting his party after a long and divisive primary battle. Obama supporters at a major rally last night showed just how fractured the Democrats remain.
Candy Crowley has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AL GORE, FMR. VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNTIED STATES: Yes, we can.
Ladies and gentlemen, the next president of the United States of America, Barack Obama.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twenty thousand people showed up for another step in the healing of the party. The picture of unity, Democratic golden boy Al Gore, presumptive nominee, Barack Obama, and Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, a former supporter of Hillary Clinton. It's going to take more than a picture.
GOV. JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), MICHIGAN: For all of those who like me supported Senator Clinton, we recognize that Senator Clinton...
(BOOING)
GRANHOLM: Senator Clinton -- come on now, she's a great American. She's a great senator.
CROWLEY: There are bad feelings on both sides of the Clinton/Obama fault line. The aftershocks of a fierce sometimes bitter primary season, and he, of course, has the most to lose as he courts the Clinton vote. A "Washington Post/ABC poll found a quarter of Clinton supporters say they will vote for John McCain. A primetime appearance in an arena full of supporters hearing Hillary Clinton's name does not help the cause.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She has in her own words shattered a glass ceiling into 18 million pieces. She has lifted up the fight of young women all across America, including my two daughters. She is worthy of our respect.
CROWLEY: Also unhelpful, at least among insiders who pay attention to these things, the recent Obama hire of Clinton's former campaign manager, Patti Solis Doyle. She was one of those blamed for early Clinton mistakes and bounced from the Clinton campaign.
Hard feelings still exist. Solis Doyle will be the chief of staff for whomever Obama taps as his vice presidential nominee. At least two high-profile Clinton supporters see the hire as a slap in the face and a sign Clinton will not be Obama's pick. Camp Obama insists there was no such message and no offense intended. But certainly, some was taken. Party unity is harder than it sounds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: On a plane here to Washington to have some meetings, Obama was asked about the appointment of Patti Solis Doyle. He said that he had known her family for some time, back to the times when he was a community organizer. That again, no offense was intended to the Clinton camp by this appointment. He says Solis Doyle has a set of skills that they can use in the fall -- Lou.
DOBBS: Does anyone believe that blather when they spew it?
CROWLEY: Well, you know apparently not you. I mean look...
DOBBS: I certainly don't.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: That's a slap in the face. That's an absolutely ignorant insult, if I may say so, without any reservation. It's my opinion. I can't imagine it -- and to sit and listen to that crowd boo the governor of the state of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm, and to boo her and Senator Clinton at the same time, I mean this party, at least in Michigan I don't even understand what the Barack Obama campaign is doing.
They have already insulted and disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Democratic voters in Michigan. Now, this -- I think extraordinarily embarrassing moment, the insult directly to -- and to put her in as chief of staff of whoever the vice presidential candidate is. Whoever that is, is going to be one weak-kneed person because they're not even getting their own chief of staff. I mean that's pretty pathetic all the way around.
CROWLEY: Listen, you cannot look at this and say, boy, if it wasn't on purpose, it certainly was a bone-headed move. I mean there is no doubt about that. As for Michigan, I mean the reason he's been there two days is they believe they are in trouble in Michigan. He didn't campaign during the primary.
The Republicans are hitting him very hard. The Republicans look at Michigan. They think they have an opportunity there. And it's really hard to put together a map for Barack Obama that leads him to victory unless it includes Michigan in it, so you're right on both counts. Hard to believe the explanation and Michigan is a problem for him.
DOBBS: And we haven't even mentioned Florida, yet to come.
All right, thanks very much, Candy. Candy Crowley.
Well Senator Clinton will join Senator Obama for an appearance in Washington next week. The two will appear in an event on the 26th of June to persuade Clinton donors to contribute to the Obama campaign. Democrats short of cash, they're over $11 million shy of their $40 million goal for the Democratic National Committee.
Senator Obama for his part holds a small lead over Senator McCain in a new CNN poll of polls. It's the first such national survey of polls since Senator Clinton withdrew from the race and endorsed Senator Obama. Senator Obama leads with 46 percent; Senator McCain at 41 percent; 13 percent remain uncertain, unsure, and undecided.
John McCain and Barack Obama battling for each and every vote in what is a very tight race for the White House. Both candidates know they must appeal to Independent voters.
As Bill Schneider now reports, neither candidate seems to have any edge at all with Independent-minded voters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Independents hold the key to victory. Both contenders know it.
MCCAIN: I don't know if you would call it a maverick, but I certainly have issues that I think can attract Independents.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As important as it is for Democrats to be unified, it's also important that we reach out to Independents.
SCHNEIDER: Who has got the edge with Independents? Two new polls give the same answer, neither candidate. "The Washington Post"/ABC News poll finds Independents split. So does the CNN poll by the Opinion Research Corporation; 45 percent for Barack Obama; 45 percent for John McCain.
Independents remember have no brand-name loyalties. Bizarre as it may sound, they actually look at the candidates and the issues and then make up their minds. So what do they think of the candidates? Do they hate them both?
Actually, they like them both McCain somewhat more than Obama. On the issues, however, Independents are not happy at all. Seventy- eight percent think the economy is lousy; 72 percent oppose the war in Iraq, which explains why Independents are so down on the Republican Party.
Only 33 percent have a favorable opinion of Republicans; 53 percent like the Democrats, big difference. If Independents are so down on Republicans, why do so many of them support McCain? Because most Independents think McCain will be different from Bush. Otherwise, McCain wouldn't have a chance.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Independents don't like the Republican brand, but they do kind of like McCain. For Independents, the brand comes second. For partisans, the brand comes first. You know a reporter once asked Harry Truman, do you vote for the man or for the party and Truman answered, I always vote for the best man. He is the Democrat -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well in this case, the Independent view seems to be that since they're exactly tied with Independents to be neither of the above. This looks relatively positive for McCain with that higher favorability rating.
SCHNEIDER: It does look pretty good for McCain, but you know that difference between Democrats and Republicans is so enormous. A 20-point difference among Independents that you can't help but believe it can really drag McCain down. They are very -- really fed up with the Republicans after eight years.
DOBBS: But at the same time, with the brand dismissal because they are Independents and the brand is less interesting to most Independents, as you've just established, the fact that McCain has a higher favorability rating seems to be compelling and also I think surprising, frankly.
SCHNEIDER: It is surprising, and he continues to have that reputation that he's had now for eight years as a maverick, but in the end, even if the brand name doesn't mean so much, I think Independents are clearly attracted by the idea of change.
DOBBS: All right, thank you very much. But still at this point, even between all of the factors, they come down evenly split.
Thanks, Bill Schneider.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
DOBBS: This is also the subject of our poll tonight: Do you think Independents will be the deciding factor in who wins the 2008 presidential election? We'd love to hear from you on this. Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here upcoming.
Next, communist China on the offensive at economic talks being held at Annapolis blasting U.S. dollar policy and our credit crisis, I'll be joined by three leading authorities on China.
And residents along the Mississippi preparing for the worst as floodwaters there rise and threaten dozens of levees. We'll have complete coverage.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Bush administration today began the latest rounds of trade talks with communist China. After two years of talks, China has made very few economic concessions.
And as Kitty Pilgrim reports, communist China is unlikely to make any concessions this time, either.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Annapolis, the forced (ph) so-called strategic economic dialogue with the Chinese. Two years of talking have produced little progress.
HENRY PAULSON, TREASURY SECRETARY: The United States and China don't always agree on economic issues. Sometimes we even disagree strongly, but we keep talking.
PILGRIM: The Chinese recently have gone on the offensive, saying the U.S. has unfairly targeted Chinese exports as unsafe, has restricted exports of technology to China and had let the dollar decline. The Chinese also chide the U.S. government for the mortgage crisis.
PETER BROOKES, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The Chinese are filling (ph) their oats. They're increasingly confident about themselves not only as an economic player in the world, but also as a global power.
PILGRIM: Legislation meant to redress the Chinese currency in balance has languished in Congress, but some in Congress are highly critical of the Treasury Department's approach to China.
REP. THADDEUS MCCOTTER (R), MICHIGAN: If you do not understand that communist China is a totalitarian government that intends to stay that way, that intends to get stronger into it and continue to dictate to the United States is what we're seeing in the current talks with Mr. Paulson, then you are not going to fulfill your duty to defend the sovereignty of the United States.
PILGRIM: Now, with the Bush duration in its final month, talks are unlikely to make any breakthroughs. CHRISTIAN WELLER, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: This goes to somewhat missed opportunities, which speaks to some degree to the lame duck presidency at this point.
PILGRIM: And the Chinese expect to wait until the next administration before starting any new discussions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now there were a flurry of business deals China timed to be signed just before the talks. U.S. and Chinese companies signed 35 deals, more than $8 billion. The illusion of progress and it takes the spotlight off of the less successful negotiations, Lou.
DOBBS: I think that's about as pathetic as it can be for Secretary Paulson saying we keep talking despite the fact we don't do anything. I mean the reality is who would you rather have representing the interest of the United States, Henry Paulson or the Chinese delegation?
I'll take the Chinese trade delegation. They're a heck of a lot smarter than we are with these nincompoops who completely rationalize failure after failure after failure. By the way, the Chinese are right. We have pursued a stupid dollar policy.
We have been absolutely irresponsible in creating and permitting to be created this credit crisis. Henry Paulson, you're wrong. Listen to your Chinese brothers. They are right and you are incompetent, if I may say.
Well, I said it, so there it is. It's my opinion, mine alone. Well, no, it's shared by lots of people, but that's my way of saying it has nothing to do with the network or any of the corporate entities that are affiliated with this network. It's just me reeling against the United States and its stupid, stupid economic policies.
Kitty, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Can't wait to see what those talks produce.
Well communist China has surpassed the United States as the world's number one polluter, go get them China. The Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency, which does such things, says China's carbon dioxide emissions are now 14 percent higher than ours. Researchers say one reason is that China's emissions are likely to keep growing. The country is heavily dependent on coal, also its very big.
Later here in the broadcast I'll be joined by three leading experts on China. They'll tell us what if anything can be done to mitigate communist China's challenges to this nation's sovereignty and interests.
Up next, levees break as the mighty Mississippi is cresting, threatening farms and thousands of homes. We'll be taking you live from the banks of the Mississippi, next. And a massive federal government crackdown on illegal immigration, we'll have that report and tell you what more needs to be done. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up next, levees along the Mississippi River at the breaking point. Tonight we'll take you live to one of the worst areas as the Mississippi River is cresting with floodwaters.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported to you last night, a staggering 90 percent of illegal aliens who try to sneak across our southern border end up being successful. Tonight, there is some evidence that once those illegal aliens do enter the country, if they are actually apprehended, and that's not such a high-odds proposition -- they're far more likely to be prosecuted than ever before.
With that context, here's Casey Wian with our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Thirty-four year old Julio Montsosa (ph) was sentenced in Los Angeles Federal Court Tuesday to more than four years in prison for illegally re-entering the United States. Prosecutors say the gang member with previous convictions for robbery, vehicle theft and drug dealing was deported to his native Mexico seven times. Nationwide U.S. attorneys are prosecuting a record number of immigration cases.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: When people who cross the border illegally are brought to face the reality that they are committing a crime, even if it's just a misdemeanor that has a huge impact on their willingness to try again and on the willingness of others to break the law coming across the border.
WIAN: Immigration prosecutions jumped 500 percent from March of 2001 to the same month this year, when U.S. attorneys tried more than 9,000 cases. That according to TRAC, a Syracuse University group that traces federal law enforcement activity through freedom of information requests. TRAC found immigration prosecutions more than doubled from January to March of this year alone.
It's largely the result of Operation Streamline and affecting parts of Texas and Arizona, which seeks to prosecute every illegal alien caught crossing the border. Previously illegal aliens would simply be returned to Mexico until they were caught crossing between seven and 15 times.
MICHAEL MUKASEY, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're trying to raise the costs of coming here illegally, especially for those who come here illegally and commit additional crimes, like narcotics trafficking and gun trafficking. WIAN: More illegal aliens are hiring so-called coyotes to help them cross the border, and those costs have tripled in recent years. Border patrol apprehensions one measure of illegal crossings were also down about 18 percent this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Increased prosecutions are not just happening at the border. Here in Los Angeles, for example, federal immigration cases are now responsible for more prosecutions than any other crime. And nationwide, Immigration and Customs Enforcement says its prosecution of illegal aliens already living in the United States have more than doubled in the past year, Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, you used the expression seven to 15 times crossing that border. Say that again so everybody picks up on what you really said.
WIAN: That was the state of the border in many sectors throughout the southwest border. There was a policy in place because they say a lack of resources that if an illegal alien was caught simply crossing the border, it would take seven to 15 times depending on the sector of the border before that illegal alien would be prosecuted for repeat illegal reentry, which is a felony, Lou.
DOBBS: And when did that end?
WIAN: Well it began ending in stretches.
In 2005 was when this program's Operation Streamline started in the Del Rio sector of Texas. They found out it worked really well to at least decrease illegal entry there, so they have begun expanding it slowly. Now in about one quarter of the southern border, this policy is enforced, Lou.
DOBBS: And one Congressman pushing that -- that policy right?
WIAN: John Culberson of Texas, absolutely.
DOBBS: I think he deserves credit and we should give him that credit here, as well. Thank you very much. Casey Wian.
Well the federal government is taking strong action against illegal aliens who reenter the country, sometimes multiple times. Over the past eight months more than 3,800 illegal aliens have been prosecuted for felony re-entry after deportation.
That's where the double the previous year when 1,800 such cases were prosecuted. Immigration and Customs Enforcement says the dramatic increase is because of the success of "Operation Repeat Offender" launched just this past February.
Customs and Border Protection officials announced a massive drug smuggling bust along our border with Mexico. Authorities said they found more than seven tons of marijuana inside a truck crossing from Mexico into California. The truck was stopped at the Calexico border crossing about 120 miles east of San Diego.
A 32-year-old Mexican man is in custody in Imperial County (ph) jail. This latest bust comes just a day after Customs and Border Protection agents in San Diego found more than 5,000 pounds of marijuana in a truck with cucumbers, tomatoes, and jalapeno peppers. Mexico remains the principal source of methamphetamine, heroine, cocaine, and marijuana in this country.
Time now for some of your thoughts. Thousands of you e-mailing us about the FDA failure to identify the source of the tomatoes causing the salmonella outbreak.
Jim in Georgia wrote to say: "Lou, the so-called independent regulatory agencies of the federal government have lost sight of their duties to protect the public and to keep us informed. Now more than ever they see their jobs as protecting the very industries they are supposed to regulate."
Tom in California said: "Lou, you got it half right. After Congress removes all the morons from the FDA, the people should remove all the morons from Congress."
I would not have any problem with that whatsoever.
And Mary in Maryland said: "Dear Lou, I am willing to bet that those people who were sickened by the salmonella tomatoes would be glad to tell those FDA people where to go."
We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
Up next, the Mississippi River is swelling to dangerous levels tonight. Thousands of homes and farms are threatened. We'll be going there live next.
And the United States and China holding so-called strategic talks, but who is representing American interests? I'll be talking with three of the world's leading scholars on China and experts. Stay with us.
And the power of the Independent vote in this election, three of the most popular radio talk show hosts join me.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're going to return now to the heartbreak in the Midwest, the worst natural disaster in the United States since Hurricane Katrina in fact. Whole communities are now submerged as a result of the flooding. Thousands of acres of farmland turned into lakes. Illinois and Iowa racing against the clocks tonight at this hour. Floodwaters could top literally dozens of levees but it won't stop there. The Mississippi River isn't expected to crest in St. Louis, Missouri, far to the south, until next Monday.
The Illinois National Guard and local residents around the town of Blandstone are preparing for the worst. They're hoping the sandbags put in place will save the levees and save their property and hold back the water. Of course, this disaster has completely changed the landscape, wiping out crops along the way. Beyond the local suffering that is likely to send food prices soaring across the country for some time to come as much as 46 percent of some of the crops, almost half of those crops are threatened. President Bush has promised to be in the region Thursday.
In Iowa tonight, an entire community is under water, inundated after a levee there failed. More than two dozen other levees are on the verge of breaking or being topped possibly within the next few hours.
Sean Callebs has been reporting from Burlington, Iowa. Much of that town is under waist-deep water.
Sean, what is going on there? I mean, it's obvious flooding is extensive. What have you got for us?
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you can see how the Mississippi River has jumped its banks, swamping this community of about 25,000 people. And Lou, as bad as it looks, this water has actually moved up to Third Street so you can figure out how far it jumped. They have a couple cameras. If you pan across this way, you can just see the big money, how it jumped its banks. It should be beyond that second tree line.
The real problem here, right across the river, Gulf Port, Illinois, you talked about those levees that are at risk. A levee gave way over there. We have some really dramatic pictures, Lou, I want to show you from the air. You see this water just pouring in and that instantly flooded thousands and thousands of acres of farmland. You talked about that ripple effect and we're certainly going to feel it down in that area.
And you know what, Lou?
We had a chance to speak with some business owners down in this area, these same people who got punished in 1993 during the flood. Virtually everyone I talked with said no, I don't have flood insurance.
I say, why? Why do you not have flood insurance?
They said A, it's so expensive, and B, there's so many restrictions on it, it just isn't worth it. They said they just wouldn't get the payout over a period of years that they really need.
And Lou I know we've focused a lot on what FEMA did in New Orleans area where I live now. A lot of people here are worried about what FEMA is or isn't going to do for them. they focused a lot on upstream. We have a map that just shows the number of cities up there that have been inundated; Iowa City where the University of Iowa is, Cedar Rapids, Des Moines and now here. What Burlington fears is those much larger cities where tens of thousands of people had to be evacuated, they are going to get the lion's share of attention from Director Paulson and his agency.
And down here they're worried they're going to be overlooked because look just to the south of here. St. Louis, you talk about this water here -- you know what, Lou -- it's going there. There's no stopping it. It's going to flood. The question: how bad will it be -- Lou?
DOBBS: These are, as you said, those are just incredible pictures of that levee breaking where you're standing.
Is there some indication that we're going to see relief for those people any way soon, this water breaking through the levee? What do the next few days hold?
CALLEBS: You know it's interesting because Illinois's punishment, that levee breaking where it flooded that way, it basically redirected all the water from the river. Instead of coming over here, it's pouring into Illinois.
We have another camera over here. If you look, you can see the water line on this building across from me. It's actually dropped about an hour. This river was supposed to crest later on this evening. Who knows if that's going to happen because so much water is going through that levee. Once it gives way, instantly, instantly, it continues to flow to the flat land until basically it has stabilized. So there's nothing to stop it except farm after farm after farm. So you know what that means, heartbreak after heartbreak after heartbreak.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Well Sean, thank you very much.
Sean Callebs reporting -- take care.
Up next here, a panel of top China experts will join me. They'll be weighing in on America's soaring trade deficit with communist China and what American trade negotiators are incapable of doing.
We'll be checking in as well with three of the most influential radio hosts. We'll find out why their Independent listeners have a lot to say about these two presidential candidates.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: U.S. trade deficit with China which last year hit an all- time high of almost $260 billion was the largest deficit ever recorded with a single country, and so far, the United States has done little to alter its policies.
For more now on how the United States should be dealing with communist China's growing economic power and challenge to the U.S., I'm joined by Gordon Chang, author of "The Coming Collapse of China"; investigative journalist, Richard Behar.
Good to have you with us. And Richard, of course, the author of "China Storms Africa," which appeared in the June issue of "Fast Company Magazine" and I can't recommend it highly enough.
In our D.C. bureau, Richard Fisher, he's vice president international assessment and strategy center.
Good to have you with us, Rick. Thank you.
Let's start with Gordon, if I may. These talks, this dialogue between Paulson, who looked to me like -- I won't characterize it. What is your impression of these talks?
GORDON CHANG, "THE COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA": Well you know there's a fundamental problem with the strategic economic dialogue. You have a delegation from Beijing that represents China, and then you have a delegation from Washington that represents China. No one is standing up for the interests of the United States because Paulson is using these talks to prevent Congress from really doing something effective about China and now China is using these talks complaining about American protectionism where we have an open economy and they have a closed one. This used to just be farcical, but now it's really grotesque.
DOBBS: It is.
Rick, your thoughts on this? I mean this looks like -- I use the expression kabuki dance, to talk about rather well-orchestrated nonsense, but is this just another kabuki dance brought to you courtesy of the Bush administration?
RICHARD FISHER, INTL. ASSESSMENT & STRATEGY CTR.: It is kabuki, and it's kind of the worst form because we're putting in the driver's seat of our relationship with this huge country that is growing so rapidly the community that is most favorably disposed to them, the people that really don't want to crack down on China, its trade practices and really enforce some fairness and openness. The community that is in charge just doesn't want to do that.
DOBBS: Why is Paulson so impotent and so insincere in his efforts to deal with the real issues that afflict American trade policy visa vie China?
FISHER: The Chinese are simply not capable of responding to American demands. It is a communist society. It requires intense regulation of the economy. The American economy is requires openness, transparency, rule of law. The Chinese simply don't want to let that in because that would undermine the power of the communist party.
DOBBS: Richard, in talking about Africa, you laid out the just the massive, massive execution of Chinese trade policy, national policy. There's no separation between the two. I mean, does the United States have a chance so long as we have buffoons like Henry Paulson and this economic team so called in this administration traipsing around, following the Chinese delegations and trade representatives and functionaries around the world? RICHARD BEHAR, AUTHOR, "CHINA STORMS AFRICA": I don't get it. I don't even understand what our policy is, it's so ambiguous. President Bush called China a strategic competitor when he was running for office. Paulson criticized China just a couple of years ago. Treasury said it was a rogue, creditor nation, and now suddenly nobody is using that language.
DOBBS: Would the fact that they hold about $1.6 trillion in reserves, Gordon, have anything to do with it? That's a lot of dollars.
CHANG: Well it's a lot of dollars, but I think there's a fundamental problem and that is Washington fundamentally misunderstands the Chinese. I think people in Washington think if we're good to them, they'll be good to us. But there really isn't.
DOBBS: This administration really is peopled by abject fools just as we fear and occasionally I accuse them of.
CHANG: They haven't really been looking at history because the Chinese sort of see our gestures of friendship really as signs of weakness. Therefore, they ask for more and more, and that puts the Bush administration into a very difficult position, which is why it hasn't been able to do anything in eight years.
You know you look at the trade deficit. 2001, the first year of the Bush administration, our trade deficit with China was $83 billion. As you pointed out, you know last year it was $256 billion. Paulson has the gall to say that our ties with China are moving in a positive direction. Well you know only in the Bush administration would they think that tripling the trade deficit with China is positive, quote/unquote.
DOBBS: Well geopolitically, geomilitarily (ph), Rick, this country seems to have absolutely no response strategically to communist China.
FISHER: China is on the march everywhere. They're winning on the Taiwan Straight. They're building a military that by the end of the next decade will have global reach. I would like to see the strategic economic dialogue paired with something like the strategic what the heck do you think you're doing with China dialogue because there are so many of these issues that we should be addressing with them at the same level.
DOBBS: Richard, is there any way in the world to get to this with the competition for commodities for natural resources we're now engaged in with primarily, Europe, now China, as it emerges, it's going to be the dominant competitor, it appears. What is next?
BEHAR: It looks like America's losing Africa. Except for occasional gifts and aid that we give, there's not enough trade going on or investment. China is soaring in one country after another. I visited Mozambique, Zambia, they're moving copper out. They're moving timber out. A lot of it is illegal. It's smuggled with no taxes to the African countries. And we're just sitting back. I mean President Bush was in Africa recently and said I don't consider China a fierce competitor and all you have to do is go on the ground in Africa and you'll see it.
DOBBS: Unbelievable.
Well, Richard, thank you very much.
Gordon, as always, thank you very much.
Rick, thank you, sir.
Well, coming up at the top of the hour, the "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown.
Campbell, tell us all about it.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, Lou.
Coming up in the "ELECTION CENTER," with gas prices going through the roof, millions of people losing their homes in the mortgage crisis, it turns out some members of Congress have been getting sweetheart mortgage deals. It's a brand new scandal on Capitol Hill getting bigger every day. We're going to talk to one senator who is feeling pretty uncomfortable about it. We're going to see you with all of that in just a few minutes, Lou.
DOBBS: Look forward to it, Campbell. Thank you.
Next here, we'll tell you what Independent voters really think about these presidential candidates. We'll talk about three of the country's best talk show hosts and why foreign governments may start drilling for oil just off our shores. We can't do that, so somebody has to.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new "Washington Post"/ABC poll finds neither Senator McCain nor Senator Obama winning over Independent voters. They're evenly split among Independents, at least.
Joining me now for more on what their listeners are telling them around the country, in Portland, Oregon, Lars Larson, KXL the Westwood One Radio Network.
Lars, good to have you with us.
In Detroit, Mildred Gaddis, WCHB.
All the time Mildred good to have you with us.
And in our D.C. bureau, my old friend Chris Plante, WMAL in Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us, Chris. Let's start with the Independent voters. Is anybody as surprised as I am that McCain can stay this close in poll after poll? Let's start with you, Mildred.
MILDRED GADDIS, WCHB IN DETROIT: You know what? I, too, am surprised by it. But I'll tell you what. I don't thing it's going to stay there. It seems all over the map, Barack seems to be edging McCain out a little bit with women.
DOBBS: With women?
GADDIS: Yes, with women.
DOBBS: Uh-oh.
GADDIS: And of course we all know there are more women in America than there are men.
DOBBS: You're talking about the vast majority now.
GADDIS: Yes, and you know what --
DOBBS: And the most powerful.
GADDIS: You've convinced me of that. And I thing it's going to pretty much stay that way and get even stronger as we head into November.
DOBBS: All right. Chris Plant, what do you think? Do you agree?
CHRIS PLANTE, WMAL IN WASHINGTON: No, not at all. McCain is going to pick up more and more Independents. McCain is an independent. McCain is not a conservative. He's barely a Republican. He represents the middle. Barack Obama represents the left. He's a liberal. And as time goes on, people will realize that, and McCain is running for the middle. He's not running as a conservative.
GADDIS: Well you know McCain has one of those things going against him right now. I'm going to differ with you on this for this reason. No matter which group you talk to, the majority of the liberals and the independents are saying they want America out of Iraq. And John McCain is staying the course. It was McCain who said we'll be there if we need to be there at least another 100 years.
LARS LARSON, KXL IN PORTLAND: No, Mildred.
PLANTE: I'm sorry. Barack Obama's position on this is so out of date. To continue to compare these points from a year ago is ridiculous. The situation has turned around completely. He's going to have to flip-flop on this or he's going to look like a fool.
LARSON: He is. Mildred, you've got to realize we're winning in Iraq now, and Obama has to find his way to yes on this to say, yes, we have to finish the job here. He's going to look like a fool if he doesn't change. And on the other hand, Chris is right that McCain doesn't look a lot like a Republican now. He's going to get a lot of the independents, especially the Hillary Democrats who are angry. They don't want Obama and they're not going to vote for him.
GADDIS: Well, you know what? I'm going to disagree with you. Whether or not we're winning depends on how you define winning and who you're speaking to. The numbers keep increasing in terms of the American servicemen whose lives are being lost. If you believe John Hopkins University's study --
PLANTE: Washington, D.C. is more dangerous than the ANWAR province.
GADDIS: Well, I'll tell you what. The numbers keep increasing; you're going to have to explain those numbers.
PLANTE: They keep increasing in Washington, but we're not pulling out.
DOBBS: I have to say, I want Mildred to take it easy on you two because these odds are getting a little out of hand. I would like you both to respond, both of you guys to respond to this. And then I want Mildred to respond. Michigan Governor Granholm booed last night as she spoke at a rally for Senator Obama in Detroit last night.
Here's what Governor Granholm had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRANHOLM: For all of those who like me supported Senator Clinton, we recognize that Senator Clinton -- come on now. She's a great American. She's a great senator. I'm proud of what she said she would do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Well, what's your reaction Lars?
LARSON: Hey, Lou, I love it when those oh so tolerant Democrats show their tolerance within their own party for any idea that differs from the party.
PLANTE: It's the unity party, right?
LARSON: Yes, right.
DOBBS: Mildred, you're the expert, you're the authority. What in the world is going on? I happen to think that Governor Granholm is one of the best governors in the country. For her to be treated like that, I mean I was astonished.
GADDIS: Well I've got to tell you. You have to understand, Democrats in Michigan are very upset because of Senator Levin and Granholm all supporting Michigan to break the rules.
DOBBS: Are they a little hacked off at the Democratic National Committee and Howard Dean for disenfranchising them? GADDIS: Yes, but they believe that the governor and the rest of the top Democrats in the state of Michigan had not made the decision to hold the primary earlier, that would not be the problem. No, no, let me finish. Let me finish.
DOBBS: Real quick.
GADDIS: Jennifer Granholm made a mistake last night. Hillary Clinton made a public statement she was throwing her support behind Obama. There are still very hard feelings that were indicated last night. There was not a legitimate reason for her to talk about Hillary Clinton last night.
DOBBS: You're being tough.
PLANTE: Of course, you know, the Democrats have been playing the politics of division for so long between male and female, between white and black, between rich and poor, that they have fractured their own party. This is their chickens coming home to roost. They're a party divided. They're a big tent party as long as you're on the train with the Dalai Lama, otherwise you know you're not welcome.
GADDIS: Well you know what? It was the Clinton people who race baited in this campaign and now the Clinton people have the audacity to try to determine who is going to be on Barack Obama's staff.
LARSON: Mildred --
DOBBS: Lars, you get the last word.
LARSON: Who's race-baiting who?
GADDIS: How much more time do we have, Lou?
DOBBS: You have exactly 30 seconds.
GADDIS: Of course, they did. It caused a lot of division. It's going to take a lot of time. I know there's not a lot of time, but it's going to take time to heal.
LARSON: They're a party divided. They are a house divided.
DOBBS: How about the Republicans?
PLANTE: They're out of luck, too. You've got John McCain and he is a centrist. He's an Independent.
DOBBS: And he's a Republican and Obama's a Democrat and I'm an independent populist, and I get the last world tonight. All right. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Mildred, thank you very much for well I thought you gave them a fighting chance.
GADDIS: See you next time.
DOBBS: You got it Mildred. Lars thank you, Chris, good to see you. Up next here, foreign governments drilling for oil off our shores. What's going on? We'll have a special report.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Are Cuba and communist China forming a dangerous alliance to communist China forming a dangerous alliance to drill for oil in our Gulf of Mexico or a little part of it, Cuba's I suppose? Some members of Congress tonight are simply outraged that the United States would stand by while Cuba and China would tap an invaluable resource just miles off our shores, or so they say.
Louise Schiavone has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: 50 miles off the coast of Florida, offshore oils drilling plans are being made and Americans will have nothing to say about it because the national force behind that drilling in these waters, officially deemed Cuban waters will be Cuba and partners who can help them access those fields like China.
REP. ZACH WAMP (R), TENNESSEE: The people I represent can't understand how we could possibly let China end up with rights to our oil and gas in the Gulf of Mexico because we say we're not going to do it and they say, OK we'll do it and we'll work with Cuba if we have to, to do it. That's really asinine.
SCHIAVONE: Among the untapped energy sources, a major oil field at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, apparently accessible between the northwest border of Cuba and the Florida Keys.
PETER BEUTEL, ENERGY ANALYST: The Cubans are very interested in developing this field. They want to get in and the Chinese are looking to get in with them and develop this before we have a chance to go ahead and develop it ourselves.
SCHIAVONE: But the American oil industry's hands are tied by a moratorium against drilling in that area until at least June 2012.
RED CAVANEY, AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE: To basically constrain the industry from an opportunity that every other country has, which is to be able to fully develop the needed resources for its own citizenry.
SCHIAVONE: Other nations reported to be working with Cuba to reach the Atlantic field (ph) include Brazil, Spain and Canada.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, recent polling shows American sentiment about offshore oil drilling is changing. Where three years ago 42 percent of Americans surveyed supported offshore exploration, a recent Gallup poll shows 57 percent are now ready for offshore exploration. And Lou, President Bush tomorrow, plans to appeal again to Congress to end that 27 year old ban on offshore drilling.
DOBBS: The Democrats simply cannot afford, nor can Senator Obama, who has come out against offshore drilling, lifting that moratorium. He just made a big mistake politically. The Democratic leadership in Congress will make a huge mistake if they continue this. He's going to have to change his position to adapt to $4 a gallon gasoline and higher in this country, just like working men and women this country are having to adapt.
Louise, thank you very much -- Louise Schiavone.
Tonight's poll results -- 79 percent of you say Independents will be the deciding factor in who wins the 2008 presidential election.
And a reminder to please join me on the radio, Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show." Tomorrow, Professor Peter Morici from the University of Maryland joins me. We'll be talking about independent solutions for this country's embattled middle class. Filmmaker Chris Burgard joins us on his documentary "Border." Go to loudobbsradio.com for your local listings.
We thank you for being with us tonight. Join us here tomorrow.
Thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
The "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown begins right now -- Campbell.
