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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Russian Aggression Continues; What Foreign Policy?; McCain's Hard Line Support for Georgia; House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's Flip-Flop on Offshore oil Drilling; U.S. Flying Illegal Aliens to Mexico; Hartford Protects Illegal Aliens; Charging Our Troops

Aired August 12, 2008 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, HOST: Thanks, Suzanne.
Tonight, Russia says it has halted its invasion of Georgia. Which nation could be Russia's next target? Where is the leadership in Europe?

And tonight, a stunning reversal by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on the issue of offshore oil drilling. Stunning? Or exactly what I predicted almost a month ago? We'll have that report.

And tonight, outrage after our government spends more than $50 million to give illegal aliens free rides home. All of that, all of the day's news and a lot more tonight from an independent perspective, straight ahead right here.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Tuesday, August 12th. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. The Republican of Georgia tonight accusing Russia of launching new air and artillery attacks on its territory. The attacks continuing hours after the Russian president declared he's halted the five-day long invasion.

Tonight, Georgian president told a huge rally in the capital of Tbilisi that Europe's freedom depends on what happens next in Georgia. The Georgian president later announced he has accepted a truce agreement with Russia and there are no indications that Russia has begun withdrawing any of its troops yet.

We have extensive coverage and we begin with Frederik Pleitgen in Tbilisi.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A massive demonstration in the center of Tbilisi on the day the Russian president announced Moscow has ended its military operations in Georgia. And the Georgian government says the fighting is still going on.

Throughout the day Russian war planes hit targets in several Georgian towns, Georgian authorities say. Leaving Georgia's president to echo the defiant tone he has struck every day since the conflict began. PRES. MIKHAIL SAAKASHVILI, GEORGIA: No matter what they do, no matter how much they bomb us, no matter how they want to cripple us and undermine us, we are not going to give up our freedom.

PLEITGEN: But there is no doubt Georgia's confrontation with its large neighbor has been a costly one. Today, Georgian officials admitted their armed forces have suffered heavy losses. And the human suffering on both sides is immense.

This is video from Tskhinvali (ph) in the breakaway province of Southern Ossetia, now controlled by Russian forces. These people say they have been hiding in cellars for days as their town was almost completely destroyed in the fighting.

We have nothing, not even candles, it's so wet in the cellar and there are rats, this woman says. But it is better to die down here than to be burned alive, this person adds.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (INAUDIBLE)

PLEITGEN: And so even as Georgians cheer their president on, some are already asking was it worth the sacrifice?

Saakashvili must be criticized for sure. He had to think more about the consequences and to make more clever action, this man says. Consequences this country will continue to feel in the coming years.

Frederik Pleitgen, CNN, Tbilisi, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: That rally continued late into the night and the Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, addressed his supporters for a second time. Tonight, telling protesters that Georgia has won a victory for freedom.

He said Russia has failed to defeat the Georgian people, the presidents of several east European nations attended that rally in a public demonstration of support for Georgia. The leaders representing Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy also in Tbilisi tonight. Sarkozy met with the Georgian president and won his support for a truce agreement that he did sign. The Russian president, Medvedev, said this agreement laid down six conditions for a truce.

However, the deal does not specifically address the central issue of Georgia's sovereignty and its territorial integrity and it certainly remains unclear whether Europe will stand up for Georgian interests. Europe imports nearly half of its natural gas from Russia and a third of its crude oil.

France and Germany also strongly opposing the idea of NATO membership now for Georgia. Well as the truce negotiations took place, Russian troops strengthened their positions in western Georgia. Russian-backed militia have advanced into a strategically important gorge in northwestern Georgia.

The militiamen say they have driven Georgian troops from the area. The Georgian government says its forces pulled out on their own. More than 3,000 Georgian civilians have fled their homes in the region.

The Bush administration tonight still struggling to respond to Russia's invasion of Georgia. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice again saying Russia must respect Georgia's territorial integrity and its sovereignty. The secretary declined to say whether the United States would take any kind of action, however. Ed Henry reports from the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Georgia.

ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One day after President Bush demanded an end to what he called Russia's brutal escalation of violence in Georgia...

(SHOTS)

HENRY: ... a more measured tone from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: It is very important now that all parties cease fire. The Georgians have agreed to a cease- fire. The Russians need to stop their military operations as they have apparently said that they will.

HENRY: Using the word apparently shows how much the White House is struggling to get a handle on Russia's real intentions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you weighing any military options -- U.S. military options?

HENRY: There are few good options. U.S. military action could dramatically escalate tensions. And it's unlikely the United Nations will take tough action to stop Russia. So Rice focused on steps the U.S. can take to aid Georgia rather than specifics to stop Russia's invasion.

RICE: We are reviewing our options for humanitarian and reconstruction assistance to Georgia, but the most important thing right now is that these military operations need to stop.

HENRY: The presidential candidates are not being so diplomatic with Republican John McCain going much further than the White House in denouncing Russia on WIPF (ph) radio in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it's very clear that Russian ambitions are to restore the old Russian empire. Not the Soviet Union but the Russian empire.

HENRY: Democrat Barack Obama, who interrupted his vacation Monday to lash out at Russia on camera, released a tough written statement Tuesday. "Now is the time for action, not just words, Obama said of Russia. It is past time for the Russian government to immediately sign and implement a cease-fire."

Both candidates also keep calling Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili and are not shy about what they tell him.

MCCAIN: And I told him that I know I speak for every American when I say to him today we are all Georgians.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: Now, top U.S. officials tonight say they have been privately assured by the Russians that this truce will hold, but just in case, because it is difficult to take the Russians at their word right now, the U.S. and its allies in Europe are talking tonight privately about the possibility of punitive measures if this truce does not hold, such as dropping Moscow from the G-8 -- Lou.

DOBBS: That must send tremors through the Kremlin to think of that such a response on the part of the western powers. Where is the European Union? What -- is the White House frustrated with the failure of the European Union to stand up here?

HENRY: That's not the indication I got from Secretary Rice. She said she had been on the phone with European leaders throughout the day today and she felt as she said that they were making progress, so I'm not really seeing frustration from the White House. Instead, I think they believe that they are making incremental progress and they feel that Russia wants to be a player on the world stage on a positive way, at least that's what they thought for the last couple of years, and if they prod them on the G-8 and other issues that maybe that will shame them. But obviously right now Russia seems to be moving forward with its own agenda, Lou.

DOBBS: I must have misunderstood you. Did you say shame them?

HENRY: Yeah. That's the word I used. Yes.

DOBBS: Thank you. Ed Henry from the White House.

HENRY: Thank you.

DOBBS: Well as Ed reported, Senator McCain is stepping up his criticism of Russia and increasing his support of Georgia. Senator McCain clearly believes this is an opportunity to demonstrate that he is the only candidate who has both the credentials and experience to be commander in chief. Bill Schneider has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): A major international crisis. It could be just what John McCain needs to highlight his strengths. McCain has talked tough from the outset of the crisis. MCCAIN: Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory.

SCHNEIDER: Initially, Obama's tone was more measured.

OBAMA: I think it is important at this point for all sides to show restraint and to stop this armed conflict.

SCHNEIDER: After speaking to the president of Georgia, Obama's tone got stronger.

OBAMA: No matter how this conflict started, Russia has escalated it well beyond the dispute over South Ossetia and has now violated the space of another country.

SCHNEIDER: Last month, Obama and McCain were trusted equally to handle international affairs. But McCain had the edge on handling an unexpected major crisis like presumably the one in Georgia. McCain was bursting with proposals.

MCCAIN: NATO's North Atlantic Council should convene an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers. The U.S. should immediately consult with the Ukrainian government.

SCHNEIDER: At a town hall in Pennsylvania that drew an unusually large turnout, McCain talked about the relevance of the crisis to Americans.

MCCAIN: There's a pipeline, an oil pipeline (INAUDIBLE) Tbilisi (INAUDIBLE) which brings oil from the Caspian to points West and traverses Georgia. That's the very pipeline that the Russians tried to bomb.

SCHNEIDER: He played to the emotions when he recounted telling the president of Georgia today we are all Georgians. And he spoke ominously about Russian ambitions to restore the old Russian empire.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Now, there is a risk for McCain that he could overplay the issue and frighten war-weary voters whose priorities are at home right now. You know the Russians are doing a pretty good job of frightening people already -- Lou.

DOBBS: You say overplay this. What risk does he have in it with his demonstrated approach to this crisis? He's actually giving, it seems, I mean it appears, ideas at a greater rate than are being advanced by the White House itself.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. He is clearly showing himself as someone who is in charge and in command on this issue. The risk, of course, is well he is surrounded by a lot of neo-conservative intellectuals and Americans will worry that he was an ardent supporter -- he has become an ardent supporter of the war in Iraq. Is there some risk that he could lead the United States into a new Cold War. I think some voters will worry about that.

DOBBS: I guess I would quibble with you talking about him leading the United States into a Cold War on the very evening in which it has been a five-day invasion of the state of Georgia by Russia, Bill.

SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Well, I mean, the Russians of course started it. Absolutely. But they don't want -- many voters are worried that the United States will become too provocative. That's all I'm saying. And that is a risk for John McCain.

DOBBS: Yeah. I will reserve my concerns right now for fear that Russia will continue its provocation.

SCHNEIDER: Yeah.

DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much. Bill Schneider.

Well turning to the war in Iraq, insurgents have killed two more of our troops. One of our soldiers, one of our Marines. Thirteen of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month; 4,140 of our troops have been killed since the war began; 30,509 of our troops wounded; 13,453 of them seriously.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi finally apparently listening to the American people and reversing course on a key part of our nation's energy policy. We'll have that story and I will show you the result of a brilliant forecast next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has reversed her position on a vote on offshore drilling and apparently reversed her course as well on saving the planet. Speaker Pelosi telling CNN that under certain conditions, she would allow a vote on offshore drilling, telling Larry King that she would be willing to have that vote.

Her reversal comes just about one month after I predicted on this broadcast that Pelosi, Reid -- Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader of the Senate, and Senator Barack Obama would reverse themselves and drop their opposition to offshore drilling and allow lawmakers to vote on proposals designed to relieve the pain of our working men and women in this country.

Lisa Sylvester has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly seven in 10 Americans said they are in favor of drilling for oil offshore, according to a CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll two weeks ago. But despite rising gas prices, the Democratic leadership in Congress consistently has said no to offshore drilling. That is, until last night. Listen to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on "LARRY KING LIVE".

LARRY KING, "LARRY KING LIVE": Would you vote yes on a package that includes drilling?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: I would not -- it depends on how the drilling is put forth. But I don't -- that is not excluded. Let me say it that way.

SYLVESTER: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is only the latest Democrat to flip-flop on this issue. Earlier this month, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama also backtracked from his position. The change of heart comes less than a month after, on this broadcast, Lou accurately predicted these reversals. July 14th.

DOBBS: It looks like we are going to see, I would guess, I will put forward -- I will hazard a political forecast. We will see Congress and Senator Obama reverse themselves on this issue very quickly.

SYLVESTER: July 18th.

DOBBS: And I will predict right now, your party, your presidential candidate, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are going to have to change their position on this immediately because American working men and women and their families are getting murdered by this.

SYLVESTER: Congress is on a five-week recess, but House Republicans gathered to pounce on Pelosi.

REP. RANDY NEUGEBAUER (R), TEXAS: And it is ludicrous that the speaker of the United States House Representative is on a book tour while American people all over America are suffering. They are not able to go on any kind of a tour. In fact, they are not taking vacations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Republicans are now challenging Speaker Pelosi to call lawmakers back to Washington immediately to vote on pending energy legislation. Now, her office says 13 major proposals were introduced before the recess in the House to increase supply, protect consumers and bring down the price of oil, but her office says the majority of Republicans voted against those proposals and in some cases, blocking them -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, let's cut through all of this, if we can. The fact is she's willing now, she says, to have a vote on an issue that she said just days preceding she would not.

SYLVESTER: Yes, and I should point out in fact those 13 proposals that I just mentioned did not include offshore drilling, so you can make the case that had she had that reversal before members left for recess, it's very possible we could have had some legislation, Lou.

DOBBS: It's an excellent point, Lisa. Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.

Well, the disputed area, the continental shelf, is the undersea extension of this continent. It is between three to 200 miles out to sea and 85 percent of the outer continental shelf is forbidden, off limits to drilling. The Interior Department says the continental shelf currently accounts for 15 percent of this country's natural gas production and almost a third of our domestic oil production.

Well crude oil prices again today plunging despite the invasion by Russia of Georgia. Oil settling at $113 a barrel. That's the lowest price in three months. Nearly $35 below the record high of $147 set back on July 11th when President Bush signed -- lifted an order -- lifting the executive ban against offshore drilling. Since he lifted that executive ban, crude oil has fallen 23 percent in price.

That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe the president has been given enough credit for that 23 percent decline in the price of crude oil since he lifted the executive order banning offshore drilling? Yes or no. We would like to hear from you. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later.

America's taxpayers spending tens of millions of dollars buying a free ride home for illegal aliens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Will Russia end its aggression against Georgia? Two of this country's leading authorities on Russia join me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The United States government is paying out tens of millions of dollars each year to fly illegal aliens from the United States to Mexico City. It is a program designed to stop border crossers from trying to cross again. Critics, however, say it is a complete and utter waste of taxpayer money. Casey Wian has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twice daily, jets loaded with illegal aliens fly from Tucson to Mexico City, 1,000 miles south of the Arizona border. The four-year-old interior repatriation program operates during the summer and has flown more than 67,000 illegal aliens deep into Mexico since 2004.

It's supposed to deter deportees from simply turning around and trying to cross the border again and to prevent deaths in the desert heat. The border patrol told Congress the flights have helped cut illegal border crossings more than 20 percent.

RON COLBURN, DEP. BORDER PATROL CHIEF: We attribute this to a number of initiatives and operations such as Operation Streamline, the Arizona border control initiative, expedited removals, the Interior Repatriation Program.

WIAN: The flights have cost U.S. taxpayers $51.6 million, much of the money goes to AEROMEXICO, which operates the planes. Per illegal alien, the trip costs roughly $765, about the same as a first class one way ticket from Tucson to Mexico City.

In 2005, the border patrol said 10 percent of the participants in the Interior Repatriation Program were caught crossing the border again compared to 32 percent of those deported to border cities. Critics dispute the findings of that preliminary study and say the flights are a waste of money.

RAQUEL RUBIO-GOLDSMITH, UNIV. OF ARIZ. BI-NAT'L MIGRATION INST.: Even from the beginning, it was not necessarily well thought out but seen as a way of spending some money quickly, maybe getting some good publicity, showing that they were trying to help the situation by taking people further away from the desert, where they wouldn't try again. I really do not think that they are a big part of saving people's lives in the desert. I think it is one more sort of band- aid, if you like, to an issue that is very complex.

WIAN: The border patrol says the Interior Repatriation Program has reduced deaths of illegal crossers, but a 2006 Government Accountability Office study found the evidence does not support that conclusion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Critics also say the flights are politically motivated, a way for the United States and Mexico to both claim they are cooperating to reduce illegal immigration and mask their failure to address the root causes of the problem -- Lou.

DOBBS: The United States is playing -- paying AEROMEXICO to fly the illegal aliens back?

WIAN: They sure are. They are paying it to them not directly. There's an Arizona charter company that's the contractor for the program, but they are hiring AEROMEXICO to do the flights, Lou.

DOBBS: And the Mexican government isn't flying back the people they are encouraging to come to this country? They are not paying for that?

WIAN: Not officially at least, that we know of, Lou.

DOBBS: I know. I just had to ask because it's such an absurdity.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: The mindlessness...

WIAN: You know...

DOBBS: ... of this entire situation, illegal immigration, the policies pursued and not pursued by this government and the arrogant, the sanctimonious nonsense spewed by the government of Mexico when what it's really after is $25 billion in remittances from the people that it leaves in poverty, it is just -- it's enough to make your gut sick. You were about to say?

WIAN: Well I was about to say that this is one program that border security activists and those who favor amnesty for illegal aliens agree on. It's a waste of money. Both sides of this issue say it is. Only the governments of Mexico and the United States are in favor of it, so it makes you wonder, Lou.

DOBBS: No, it doesn't. Not a bit. Thank you very much. Casey Wian.

Well it's been a week since Immigration and Customs Enforcement launched a self deportation program for illegal alien fugitives in this country. Now, that program, speaking of questionable programs, is now in its eighth day of operation. It allows illegal aliens to turn themselves in voluntarily and to leave the country without being detained.

Tonight, we are going to begin the official countdown of the number of illegal aliens who turn themselves in. Are you ready? Under this very important program, the number of illegal aliens who have turned themselves in now stands at, there you see it, on day eight of the program, six.

We're not averaging quite one voluntary self deportation a day yet. And I know the suspense is going to build in the remaining time of this program. Another 10 days are left in this program. And we are going to update you each and every night here on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT when that number rises or perhaps I should say if that number rises. We will find out together with the voluntary deportation countdown clock.

The organization People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, PETA, today has come up with a plan that it believes could be well somewhat interesting and unique. PETA is requesting that the Homeland Security officials give them permission to post billboards on the border fence being constructed along our border with Mexico.

PETA in fact sent us a mock-up of that ad. Now this is a very serious proposal by PETA. The ad, the billboard that would be put up on the border fence warns quote, "entering the United States could expose healthy Mexicans to an American diet of meat and fatty foods." PETA claims to have no official position on illegal immigration, but it also claims that the message might deter illegal aliens from crossing into the United States and encouraging them, of course, to stay away from meat.

Well, let's take a look at some of your thoughts now. Jay in Connecticut, "Instead of a project to create a virtual fence along the U.S.-Mexico border, I think that we should make a fence of flat panel TV sets tuned to Lou Dobbs." I like that.

And Daffin in Ohio writing in about the Mexican military's incursions into the United States. "I wonder if the Mexican government would be so tolerant if our army were to cross over into Mexico. Don't think so. So why is our government allowing this to happen? We know the answer. Because special interest groups, lobbyists and corporate America are actually running this country. We can only hope come November we can show them what we really think."

And Jack in Florida, "I went to check the oil in my car today but was unable to. My dipstick is in Washington." I happen to like that one a lot.

I think all of our dipsticks are in Washington in point of fact. We appreciate hearing from you. We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast.

The vast majority of foreign companies operating in this country well they don't pay income tax. According to a new report by the Government Accountability Office, in fact nearly three-quarters of foreign corporations pay no federal income tax at all, at least during the period 1998 to 2005. American companies now a lot better, 65 percent of U.S. corporations during that period paid no federal income tax. Compare that to American families who paid nearly $7 trillion in income tax in the same period, 1998 to 2005.

Next, Moscow tries to intimidate its neighbors with bomb shells and missiles. Two of the world's most respected authorities on Russia join me here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Secretary of State Rice today declared the United States supports the territorial integrity of Georgia but tonight, large numbers of Russian troops remain deep within Georgian territory despite a truce agreement signed by both sides.

Joining me now, two distinguished authorities on Russia and its foreign policy; Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations who led the negotiations ending the Bosnian War in 1995; David Satter, research fellow at the Hoover Institution, author of "Darkness at Dawn, the Rise of the Russian Criminal State."

Gentlemen, thanks for being here.

Ambassador, let me turn to you. You have been critical of the Bush administration here. It seems the Russian government responded at least today to the White House's requests, demands, if you will, from yesterday.

AMB. RICHARD HOLBROOKE, FMR. U.S. AMB. TO UNITED NATIONS: I don't think there's any significant connection between the two events and I want to be very clear in my criticism.

This crisis was long anticipated I wrote about it two years ago in "Washington Post." There was a similar crisis ten years ago in 1999. President Clinton sent his deputy secretary of state Straub Tallman to Moscow and Tbilisi to shuttle back and forth. War was very close. The United States managed to calm things down.

In this particular case, the Bush administration did nothing. Condoleezza Rice made one brief trip to Tbilisi. They celebrated democracy in Georgia, as they should have. Mikhail Saakashvili is a wonderful man, a friend of mine, and I support him very strongly. But they never took pro-active action. They never sent an emissary into the region. The envoy is the deputy assistant secretary of state who is the desk officer for the area. He only went to Tbilisi, not Moscow. I don't call that preventive diplomacy. I call it neglect.

Finally, in Beijing on Friday --

DOBBS: Wait, wait.

HOLBROOKE: Let me just finish.

DOBBS: I want to turn to David and give him an opportunity.

HOLBROOKE: Bush did nothing in Beijing during the opening --

DOBBS: Don't speak over me, Ambassador, please.

David Satter, if you would, your view?

DAVID SATTER, HOOVER INSTITUTION: Well, I don't think that the crisis depended on the intervention of an American envoy in Georgia.

In 1999, the situation was totally different. One thing, Russia was completely dependent on the United States. The situation is very different now. It's been building for a long time. In fact, the real trigger I think was the aspirations of Georgia to join NATO and become really part of the west. Under these circumstances, Russia sought and found a way to provoke Georgia into perhaps impetuous action and then use it as an excuse to cross the border and attack them.

DOBBS: Did you say perhaps?

SATTER: I am sorry, let's leave out the perhaps. I mean they crossed the border and attacked them. It's very clear what they did.

DOBBS: As Ambassador Holbrooke says, the conditions, the precedent to this tragedy for Georgia, was clear for all. Why was there not more action taken by the ambassador in partisan fervor, is attacking, as he would, the Bush administration. One could do the same with the Clinton administration for his policy towards Georgia throughout the 90s - toward Russia but the issue here is why in the world didn't the European Union find some response that was reasonable and effective toward both Russia and Georgia here?

HOLBROOKE: Lou, critical as I am about the American administration, I would be even more critical about the Europeans.

The American government supported Georgia's application for membership in NATO, as did both of the presidential candidates, Barack Obama and John McCain. It was the Europeans led by Germany that vetoed it.

The reason is very simple. You reported it many times on your program. It is the leverage of oil in the world and the Russian's assertiveness. I agree with David Satter that Russia is very different today than a decade ago. I just think the basic rule I would give you for international affairs of this sort is when the U.S. doesn't lead, no one does. The U.S. did not show international coalition leadership in this case, and the Europeans of course lagged behind.

Look at the Italian foreign minister yesterday. He said we agree with Putin's view of the situation but at least Sarkozy took action and he deserves some credit here.

DOBBS: Yeah.

And David Satter, your thoughts?

SATTER: Well, once again, I think that what is at stake here is an attempt on the part of Russia really to reconstruct the Soviet Union. Perhaps not in the form in which it existed before 1991, but in the situation in which Russia can simply have its foot on the throat of anybody who dares to try to pursue independent policies.

The only way really to prevent that, it's not a question of one administration versus another administration. Both the Clinton and the Bush administrations made enough mistakes that they shouldn't be accusing each other. The real problem is that there's not a will in the west on the part of the western nations to enforce decent values with Russia, to speak, to constantly confront Russia with the opinion and the will of the civilized world. That will have deterrent effect.

HOLBROOKE: May I just add, I think David would agree with this, that this is going to have a chilling effect on democracy across the entire former soviet space and the country that is most on edge tonight, with reason, is Ukraine. The Russians have attacked Ukraine for having assisted in this process through some crazy theory that the missiles the Georgians use are American missile shipped by Ukraine but all the former soviet republics should understand what this is about. It's a historic event. We are 40 years to the month since the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Union. While this are many differences, the brutality exhibited here, implications for the long term are profound.

DOBBS: All right. David Satter, you get the last word.

SATTER: Well, I feel that Richard is right. This is really a pivotal event because in fact, the west is going to be obliged to reply to the aggression against a western ally and that will in turn spur aggressive actions on the part of Russia. We are in a bad situation which may, in fact, get worse.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, gentlemen. Appreciate it. Ambassador Holbrooke, thank you. David Satter, thank you very much.

Another major city ignoring this country's immigration laws, offering sanctuary to illegal aliens. That special report is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: An American city tonight has declared itself a sanctuary for illegal aliens, joining about 70 others; the city council of Hartford, Connecticut, the state capital, voting to block police from enforcing U.S. immigration laws. If the mayor signs that law as he is expected to, Hartford will become a city to put the interests of illegal aliens ahead of the public interest and failing to follow the law.

Bill Tucker has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The city of Hartford, Connecticut is apparently unimpressed by violent crime committed by illegal aliens in other cities.

In San Francisco, an admitted gang member who is also an illegal alien is charged with three counts of murder. He's pled not guilty.

In Los Angeles, Jamil Shaw, a promising high school student athlete was shot and killed. An illegal alien who had been released from jail instead of being deported is charged with the crime.

In a city much closer to home, Newark, New Jersey, three students were shot dead and another seriously wounded a year ago. One member of the gang allegedly involved in the killings is an illegal alien who faces murder charges.

Despite all of that, the city council of Hartford unanimously voted to protect illegal aliens in their community from law enforcement, infuriating opponents of sanctuary policies.

TOM FITTON, JUDICIAL WATCH: Hartford is behind the times here. Even in San Francisco, they are rethinking their sanctuary policy and it's an ignorant and dangerous law that Hartford passed.

TUCKER: The ordinance would direct the city police not to ask a person's immigration status. They would not be allowed to arrest individuals solely for immigration violations, even if there were an outstanding warrant from federal immigration authorities. Social workers would be ordered to provide services to anyone who applies without asking about immigration status.

One of the members of the city council takes exception with the notion that Hartford is making itself a sanctuary city.

LARRY DEUTSCH, HARTFORD CITY COUNCIL: It doesn't give them any special privileges, but rather, it encourages them to participate along with others in reporting violations of law, violations of housing codes.

TUCKER: The ordinance has not yet been signed by Hartford's mayor but he has said he supports its spirit.

(END VIDEOTAPE) TUCKER: We called Mayor Perez's office requesting an interview but he was unavailable. His office would only say he is reviewing the ordinance. Apparently hasn't decided whether he will or won't sign this.

DOBBS: I will make a bet, just a little bet, the idea that this mayor, this city council to pass that ordinance would flaunt U.S. immigration law and their responsibilities, I suppose they will do the same with federal drug laws and other laws, it's pretty disgusting. Let's examine how much federal money is received by Hartford. Let's see how well that city is doing, that administration, that city council, that mayor. Let's find out how they are handling that budget, what the sources of money are for Hartford, Connecticut, because they seem to be, well, supreme in their confidence that they are above federal law, and public responsibilities.

Bill, thank you.

There are dozens of sanctuary cities across the country that refuse to enforce U.S. immigration laws. In all, there are more than 70 sanctuary cities in this country, including New York, Chicago, Dallas, San Diego, San Francisco and Los Angeles. L.A.'s controversial so-called special order 40 that protected Jamil Shaw's alleged killer, has been on the books for more than 30 years.

A reminder now to please join me on the radio. Tomorrow, my guests include Andrew Bacevich, author of "The Limits of Power, the End of American Exceptionalism" and Jerome Corsi, author of "The Obama Nation, Left His Politics in the Cult of Personality." That's the Lou Dobbs Show. Go to loudobbsradio.com to find listings for the show.

Three of the country's best talk show hosts will tell us what their listeners are saying about the Obama nation and the Russian invasion of Georgia among other issues.

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DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, the "ELECTION CENTER" with Campbell Brown.

Campbell, what are you working on?

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Well Lou, we are going to stay with the breaking news, the cease-fire announced in the fighting between Russia and Georgia along with new accusations of atrocities. We will cover everything that's happening there. Eyewitnesses also joining us to tell us what they have been seeing on the ground in the war zone.

And also tonight we are also taking a closer look at the men and women who could be the next vice president. We've got that and a lot more right here in the "ELECTION CENTER."

Lou?

DOBBS: Look forward to it. Thank you very much, Campbell. Joining me now, two of the best radio talk show hosts in the country; from Detroit, Mildred Gaddis, WCHB; here in New York with me, Mark Simone, WABC.

Good to see you both.

Let's start with you, Mildred. I have to start with the start with the fair city of Detroit. Mayor Kilpatrick, Kwame Kilpatrick. This is becoming -- this is crazy. What's going on there?

MILDRED GADDIS, WCHB IN DETROIT: The inmates are truly running the asylum, it's unbelievable. You know last week the mayor was jailed he spent a night in the Wayne County jail. He is now wearing a tether. He is refusing to step down. He is now facing 10 felony counts. Initially the Wayne County prosecutor charged him with 8 and now the state attorney general has charged him with two for allegedly pushing, hitting, or shoving two officers of the law.

DOBBS: Well, at least he got a break today. Not to have violated, one incidence, his bond, that's a step up for him, isn't it?

GADDIS: I guess so, after all he's been through. After all he's been through. And to top it all off, Lou, you're going to love this one. The most prominent group of black ministers here in the city of Detroit held a press conference today to say that they advised the mayor to consider stepping down. How about that?

DOBBS: Well --

GADDIS: Consider, that's the operative word.

MARK SIMONE, WABC IN NEW YORK: Berry got reelected.

DOBBS: I know. This is the mayors all over the country. We can start with the fellow in sanctuary city, if he signs the ordinance, which he's expected to do in Hartford, Connecticut. They can all take a lot of prayer and consideration about stepping down you'd think.

SIMONE: What happened to the good honorable politicians, guys like John Edwards. He's available for mayor.

GADDIS: All right. Don't pick on John.

SIMONE: Don't pick on him?

DOBBS: Don't pick on John. That one I've got to hear.

GADDIS: I'm only joking.

DOBBS: Kilpatrick and you're standing up for John Edwards.

GADDIS: No, no, I was joking. That was only a joke. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

DOBBS: You nearly lost me on that one Mildred. GADDIS: No, I was pulling your leg on that one. What I find interesting is this Hillary Clinton person, I think her former campaign manager is now whining and saying if they had only known that she could have taken Iowa.

SIMONE: That's absolutely not true because they did exit polling there and the second choice of every voter for Edwards was Obama. I think about 60 percent of them would have gone for Obama. And, remember, Iowa's a real anti-war state. And that was her problem, she was the only non-antiwar candidate.

DOBBS: I love to hear the -- the primary season was so compelling that we want to re-fight it over and over with the one candidate who got the fewest possible votes.

GADDIS: But you know something, though? You know what I think is very telling about this, I think it means that the Hillary people, not all of them, have decided they would embrace the party and become true Democrats. The fact that you have a former campaign manager talking about, well, she could have taken Iowa. All of that is over.

SIMONE: I think the fact that he suddenly brought this up right now. They're still hoping that something will happen on that convention floor that somehow she'll end up with it.

DOBBS: What is the deal here? That the Democrats -- think about it. Disenfranchising Democratic voters of Michigan and Florida, Mildred and Mark, I want to talk to you both about this. And now, not wanting to hear from the delegates for Hillary Clinton and the national convention? What makes that a convention?

GADDIS: You know what --

DOBBS: Go ahead, Mildred.

GADDIS: I cannot explain what's going on with the Democrats. They're loyalist one minute and then their actions, of course, speak to an entirely different agenda. Who knows what's going to happen in Denver next month, but they don't have it as tight as the Republicans, I've got to tell you.

SIMONE: These are really pageants, coronations, you know. You know years ago it was a convention, you'd get there, a floor fight, ballot after ballot. But people under 50 haven't seen that in years. They wouldn't understand that. It would look like chaos to them.

DOBBS: Well, speaking of chaos, the Russian invasion of Georgia, we heard both candidates speak. And frankly, John McCain coming out much stronger than the White House early, and Senator Obama talking about the ideals of the Olympics, as tanks are rolling through Georgia. Mildred, square that one up for us.

GADDIS: I can't explain Barack Obama. You know, what is interesting now is that, you know, that all the critics have said those who support John McCain that they can't support Barack Obama because he's inexperienced, they're afraid of how he would mismanage or mishandle the country should there be some major conflict. This certainly provided a tremendous opportunity for Barack Obama to shore up that perception. It really was a tremendous opportunity for that.

SIMONE: But you've got to remember something. McCain's got 20 years in the military, 25 years in the senate. He's known this Georgian president for years. Obama has 143 days in the senate. He's a guy with a lot to offer and he may be a great president some day. I don't know that he's ready yet.

GADDIS: I think that one of the things that have not occurred with this whole piece about Russia and Georgia is really what the conflict is all about. I don't think that the American public has been provided that information. Here we go again, guys, with this whole thing about their own sovereign land. That certainly needs to be talked about.

SIMONE: Talking about Bush. There used to be United Nations, the building is still there. Is it still open? Where are they?

DOBBS: They're still doing exactly what it's been doing for some number of decades now. Mildred Gaddis, thank you very much as always. Great to have you with us, Mildred and Mark Simone, thank you, sir.

SIMONE: Appreciate it.

DOBBS: Up next, airlines keep piling on extra charges. Now, they're charging the wrong people.

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DOBBS: Airlines increasingly charging their passengers extra for almost everything from meals to pillows as a way to offset fuel costs and mismanagement. Now some airlines are going simply too far trying to save money. Those airlines charging our troops for their extra baggage even as they head off to war.

Deborah Feyerick has our report.

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DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Our U.S. soldiers paying extra just to take their kit with them? One staff sergeant leaving San Antonio for Ft. Worth was charged $100 for checking a third bag. And the Veterans of Foreign Wars Organization is worried the practice will spread. Now airlines are feeling the pinch.

JOE DAVIS, VETERANS OF FOREIGN WARS: What we want to do is to nip this in the bud by exempting the military personnel who are traveling under orders from having to pay a fee on their third bag.

FEYERICK: Joe Davis says soldiers don't have the time or money to be worrying about claiming baggage expenses.

DAVIS: You have a family at home and you stand at that airline counter and you have three bags in your hands and they say you pay $100 up front right, what do you do? These young troops are going to war. There's a lot more on their mind than have to worry or try to remember to get $100 reimbursement when they get into a war zone.

FEYERICK: Veterans of Foreign Wars sent a letter to the aviation industry asking that U.S. troops be exempt from any extra bagging fees. American Airlines and others reached by CNN defend the practice saying troops are allowed heavier and bigger bags and can check two for free, unlike commercial travelers. An American Airlines spokesman tells CNN troops are allowed 190 pounds each free of charge, and that "If they pay, they get reimbursed. So at the end, they don't pay a dime." Vouchers authorizing extra baggage are usually issued by the military prior to a flight. And the reimbursement is pending approval. As with any business expense, it is not guaranteed.