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Lou Dobbs Tonight
What Foreign Policy?; Economic Security
Aired September 11, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf. Tonight, the issues the presidential candidates are ignoring or avoiding or both, the issues most important of course to the American people. Tonight, we focus on our security and sovereignty seven years after September 11th.
Senators Obama and McCain today putting their difference aside as they remembered victims of the attacks, but with very different strategies to defeat radical Islamist terrorists. We'll be reporting on that and three of the most distinguished national security experts in the country join me here to give us their assessment.
And President Bush has ordered a new offensive to defeat Taliban and al Qaeda terrorists trying to kill our troops in Afghanistan. Will it be successful, anymore successful than previous efforts? We will tell you all about that tonight. And among my guests here, two presidential candidates most news organizations have ignored, Independent candidate Ralph Nader, Libertarian party candidate Bob Barr; all of that, all the day's news and a lot more right here on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition, "The Lou Dobbs Independent Convention"; news, debate, and opinion for Thursday, September 11th. Live from Washington, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. Seven years after September 11th the United States remains vulnerable to attacks from radical Islamist terrorists. Our troops have achieved significant success in Iraq as a result of the reinforcements and surge strategy.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates says we are as he put it in the end game. But the war in Afghanistan is escalating as radical Islamist terrorists step up their campaign to overthrow the government of President Hamid Karzai as this at the very same time this country is facing new challenges overseas, particularly from Russia's aggression and communist China's rapid military buildup.
And much older challenges such as the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians and Iran and North Korea's nuclear programs. Those challenges remain unmet. The McCain-Palin campaign is emphasizing assertive U.S foreign policy and a strong military. Senator McCain says he knows how to win wars and promises he will capture Osama bin Laden.
Senators Obama and Biden say they will withdraw our combat troops from Iraq regardless of conditions on the ground. The Democratic candidates also say America must talk with its enemies. Both Senators Obama and McCain promise to increase the number of our troops in Afghanistan interestingly enough and the Bush administration has already announced plans to send more of our troops in January.
President Bush has also ordered a more aggressive strategy against the terrorists based in Pakistan, an example, the first ever raid by U.S. ground forces within Pakistan. Barbara Starr has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. military officials tell CNN there will be more raids by U.S. commandos into Pakistan's border tribal region to capture or kill al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists. This, as a senior U.S. intelligence official confirms President Bush has signed a secret order allowing special operations forces to conduct ground assaults inside Pakistan.
The Pakistani tribal border region now more than just a safe haven. Insurgents are being trained and equipped in a far more organized fashion and running more sophisticated attacks against U.S. troops in Afghanistan and that has led to a stunning assessment from the most senior U.S. military officer.
ADMIRAL MICHAEL MULLEN, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: No amount of troops in no amount of time can ever achieve all the objectives we seek in Afghanistan and frankly, we are running out of time.
STARR: Already 2008 is the most deadly year for U.S. troops in Afghanistan since the war began, 112 killed so far. A senior U.S. commander says he must have more boots on the ground.
MAJ. GEN. JEFFREY SCHLOESSER, CMDR., JOINT TASK FORCE 101: I'm not able to really get good effects on the ground. I can come in and I can clobber the enemy, but then I can't hold it and stay with the people.
STARR: The U.S. has been pressuring the Pakistan military to crack down on insurgents. Pakistan claims it's already doing all it can.
REHMAN MALIK, PAKISTAN INTERIOR MINISTER: That's why we are also requesting to U.S. please make sure that you do not attack.
STARR: But one senior U.S. military official says quote, "we have no choice if American soldiers are dying inside Afghanistan."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: And U.S. military officials are making it clear they are running out of patience with Pakistan. It's been seven years since this war began and they are not winning. The enemy is becoming bolder and more effective and Lou, the young troops on the front lines have been saying for months, send help.
DOBBS: And the surge strategy, which both Senator McCain who was an early supporter and sponsor of the surge strategy and reinforcements and Senator Obama, now acknowledging the success, both men. Why is that not being executed in Afghanistan now?
STARR: Because of Iraq. The U.S. military as we all understand has been tied up in Iraq in large numbers for so long, it seems incredible. They say they simply don't have the troops available to shift and send.
DOBBS: Put Admiral Mullen's comments into some context for, if you would, help us understand what -- a senior military leader means when he says no amount of troops, no amount of time will result in victory. That is not exactly pleasing to the ear of most Americans.
STARR: What Admiral Mullen went on to say was quite interesting. He said the U.S. military, in his words, cannot kill their way to victory. This is going to require massive international aid. It is going to require other troops from other countries to participate and it's really going to require getting Pakistan to crack down. That is the key right now. That border region is out of control and unless Pakistan steps in and helps it's not likely to get any better.
DOBBS: Barbara, thank you very much. Barbara Starr.
Well a new threat to this country's national security within our own hemisphere. Russia and Venezuela have announced plans for joint military exercises in the Caribbean to be held in November. Moscow this week sent two long range bombers to Venezuela. This is the first time that Russia has deployed bombers into the Western Hemisphere since the Cold War. Moscow insists these bombers are not carrying weapons. The Russian Air Force recently has been carrying out long range patrols near Western airspace including near Governor Sarah Palin's home state of Alaska and certainly over Western Europe.
Many Independent voters say the presidential candidates have ignored rising threats to U.S. interests around the word. The challenges include Russia's efforts to bully its neighbors in Europe and Asia and of course specifically the former satellites of the Soviet empire. And as we've been reporting here for years, communist China is building up its military at a rapid rate. Kitty Pilgrim has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The post-9/11 foreign policy of the Bush administration focused on radical Islamist terrorism.
(SOUNDS)
PILGRIM: Now new threats from old adversaries also face the country. Last month a newly belligerent Russia invaded Georgia and defied the West. Afghanistan with a rising death toll, drawing more U.S. troops to combat terrorism.
And Pakistan with a new leader now raising objections about U.S. forces trying to rout out the terrorist havens on their soil. A nuclear arm North Korea always an adversary is increasingly unstable with an apparently ailing leader and no clear power of succession. (SOUNDS)
PILGRIM: China, despite the favorable Olympic spotlight, continues relentless pursuit of military, economic and political dominance of the region. Despite the Bush administration's attempt to cajole China into better behavior, communist China's leadership offers few concessions.
PETER BROOKS, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: China is still a tremendous challenge. I mean you know one out of five people in the world today live under authoritarian government in China. And it's not quite clear exactly where China's trajectory is going to take it. For good or bad, China will have more influence on this century than I think any other country or any other issue.
PILGRIM: These issues are all but ignored on the campaign trail.
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "THE COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA": And these are not things that you can sort of talk about in a 30-second answer in a presidential debate. For instance, they are not talking about the significance of Russia's invasion of Georgia. They're not talking about what is going on with China. There's all sorts of things that are not being discussed and I don't think they will be unless the American public forces them to talk about them during a campaign.
PILGRIM: Even in our own backyard lurks Venezuela's strong man Hugo Chavez, who seeks alliances with America's enemies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now there is no discussion on the campaign trail of these dangerous new developments, no real solutions being offered by the candidates and calls for change will do nothing to address this dangerous new world -- Lou.
DOBBS: It's extraordinary that the national media again has not insisted upon a discussion of the changing geopolitical structure of this world and what the U.S. policy should be, whether it be in regard to China, whether it be in regard to Russia, whether it be in regard to the global terrorist threat to this country.
And to try to reach some understanding in a public discussion among these candidates, the congressional leaders, this White House even, as to what are the limits of a super power and at what point can we no longer afford to simply run a massive, massive amounts of debt in a war that is costing tens of trillions of dollars, 10 billion -- excuse me -- billions of dollars, $10 billion a month. It's crazy.
PILGRIM: You know the world is not on hold while this campaign goes on, but everyone is sort of functioning like it is.
DOBBS: And also functioning as if it weren't occurring at all because they are ignoring it and again, the national media allowing them to ignore these issues. Thank you very much.
Senators Obama and McCain tonight are locked in a bitter contest over the conduct of the war in Iraq and how to defeat radical Islamist terrorists. Their differences illustrate some of the different approaches to foreign policy, national security and of course even our sovereignty. Ed Henry has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Unity on the seventh anniversary of 9/11.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All right, sir, we'll see you soon.
HENRY: But the candidates could not be more divided over the war on terror.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: While McCain was turning his sights to Iraq just days after 9/11, I stood up and opposed this war, knowing that it would distract us.
HENRY: Trying to show he was ahead of the curve, Barack Obama wants 10,000 U.S. troops rotated to Afghanistan as he implements a 16- month drawdown of troops in Iraq. John McCain sharply opposes an Iraq timeline, so he puts the emphasis on getting more NATO troops to Afghanistan and doubling the size of the Afghan army. McCain, however, can tout he was out in front supporting the troop surge in Iraq while Obama has been struggling to acknowledge its success.
MCCAIN: I fought for the right strategy and more troops in Iraq when it wasn't a popular thing to do.
(APPLAUSE)
HENRY: McCain this summer vilified Obama for suggesting if Pakistan does not cooperate the U.S. should take unilateral military action within its borders to get terror leaders like Osama bin Laden.
MCCAIN: Trying to sound tough he's made it harder for the people who support we most need to provide it.
HENRY: But a senior U.S. intelligence source tells CNN that President Bush has secretly approved an order allowing U.S. military ground assaults inside Pakistan, similar to what Obama has called for.
OBAMA: John McCain likes to say that he will follow bin Laden to the gates of hell, but he won't even follow him to the cave where he lives.
HENRY: On Iran, Obama has insisted his support for direct talks with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad simply means tough diplomacy, but McCain sees a dangerous risk.
MCCAIN: And he has no experience and more importantly he lacks the judgment to lead this country.
(END VIDEOTAPE) HENRY: And John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin is talking tough on foreign policy tonight in her first major interview with ABC News. She lashed out at Russia for its recent actions in Georgia and she also said that despite the questions about her experience, that she is ready to be commander in chief if something happened to Senator McCain. I get a sense that that debate with Joe Biden that's coming up might be a little more interesting than Democrats might have expected.
DOBBS: Based on what I have seen of that interview with Charlie Gibson on ABC, I believe Senator Biden better start hitting the books. He will. Thanks very much. Ed Henry.
Well three of the best national security analysts in the country join me here next to give us their assessment of the presidential candidates' policies to defeat radical Islamist terrorists and two presidential candidates trying to cut through the blather, the partisanship and also a certain media bearing (ph) on the campaign trail join me, Ralph Nader, Independent, Bob Barr, Libertarian. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now are three of the finest national security analysts. Bing West, he's the author of "The Strongest Tribe: War, Politics and the End Game in Iraq". He is the former assistant secretary of defense and a Vietnam veteran. Fouad Ajami, he is professor of Middle East Studies at Johns Hopkins University, author of the "Foreigners Gift: The Americans, the Arabs, and the Iraqis in Iraq" and Professor Andrew Bacevich, a former colonel in the Army, a Vietnam veteran, author of "The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism". Gentlemen, thank you all for being here.
Let me, if I may, turn straight to the issue and that is the consternation that has been kicked up or at least some have tried to kick up some consternation over the fact that Governor Palin said that if Ukraine or Georgia were a member of NATO the United States might have to go to war. Do you find anything controversial about that?
PROF. FOUAD AJAMI, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Yes. There is a lot of controversy about this. We are not going to go to war with Russia over Georgia or the Ukraine and I think that whoever the winner in this election in November, I think will reassess our posture and I think the issue of Russia will be there, but I don't think war is on the menu.
DOBBS: Bing.
BING WEST, FMR. ASST. DEFENSE SECY.: It was a hypothetical question and it was out the wrong way. NATO says that if one country is attacked everyone will go to their aid, so the answer is of course. The predicate was are they part of NATO? The answer to that was no, so it was a trick kind of question, but...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: If it were a member of NATO...
WEST: Then that would be the only choice any honorable person in NATO would have if that happened.
DOBBS: Professor Bacevich.
COL. ANDREW BACEVICH, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I agree and they are not members of NATO and quite frankly, I seriously doubt that they are going to become a member of NATO. We need to see the Russia threat for what it is. It's serious. It's not all that serious and quite frankly if Russia threatens anybody, they threaten the Europeans and it's time for the Europeans to start paying attention to their contribution to NATO. We need to rejuvenate NATO as a serious defensive alliance.
DOBBS: Today, the seventh year anniversary of -- it is strange to call it an anniversary. Seven years ago this day that the United States was attacked on September 11th, what have we done to prepare ourselves, to better prepare ourselves to win the war against radical Islamist terror?
AJAMI: Well, Secretary Gates said something which I thought was very honest and very true when he said look, on September 12th if someone said we would not be attacked again on American soil, no one would have believed that. So we've defended ourselves that way. We have two wars in the Islamic world. We have a war in Iraq, which is going well and a war in Afghanistan, which is going badly, and we have the troubles of the Muslim world, which will never go away. We have become, if you will, an umpire in the lands of Islam and in the lands of the Arabs. (INAUDIBLE) fate. We are involved in the societies with all their...
DOBBS: Inextricably?
AJAMI: Yes, yes. For many, many reasons. Beginning with oil, but oil isn't the only issue. We are there and we have this enormous presence in the world of the Arabs and in the world of Islam and...
DOBBS: Do you agree? Do you agree, Bing?
WEST: Well, what I would add to that is regardless of how the Iraqi war started it did turn a corner in 2006 against al Qaeda. Al Qaeda came into Iraq because they thought they could humiliate the United States and take over Iraq. It didn't work out that way because the Sunni people turned against al Qaeda. That's a big setback over the next several years for al Qaeda. I do agree Afghanistan is getting worse. That's going to be a very major issue.
DOBBS: Professor Bacevich.
BACEVICH: Well we should be grateful that we haven't had another attack. But as I think back on the seven years what I'm struck by is how much we paid for how little we gained. I mean the object of the exercise the Bush administration strategy in the war on terror was to use hard power to try to transform the greater Middle East. We initiated that effort in Afghanistan. We went to phase two in Iraq. We're seven years into the project. We've expended probably something like a trillion dollars. We've lost over 4,000 American lives. And it just seems to me that it's unlikely that continuing down this path is going to achieve the kind of regional transformation that the Bush administration said that it was going to achieve in the first place. It's a -- it's a losing game that we are playing and we need to reconsider a strategic alternative.
DOBBS: Two things to Professor Bacevich's points, Professor Ajami. One is that the extent of the losses, the casualties are significant. Because in addition to the more than 4,000 Americans dead, more than 30,000 wounded, almost 14,000 of them very seriously wounded. A trillion dollars the estimates are ranging anywhere from another half a trillion to $3 trillion will be spent by this country at a time when it is in massive debt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
DOBBS: And simply cannot afford that treasure. Do we need to reconstruct our thinking and how we will deal with the interest of this nation geopolitically particularly in the Middle East?
AJAMI: Well we are going to reconsider this. I mean I think -- this is not the history which shows. This is the history that was imposed upon us. Maybe it's my Arab background, I believe in fate. This was the history where we were fated to have after 9/11. Remember this administration came in to have a humble foreign policy, then came 9/11 and it shredded everything both and changed our history.
So come with me on January 20th, 2009, whether it's Senator Obama or Senator McCain. We are going reorient our policy. This Bush presidency was this war presidency and I think we've done well. It was -- the cost has been enormously high and he's absolutely right. But we never had a choice. The choices have not been pretty in the Islamic world.
DOBBS: Do you agree with that, Bing, because I -- frankly I think of -- I'm not a fatalist as is Professor Ajami. I'm more of a typical country boy American. I still think that we can determine our fate and it does require that we do a lot of thinking and perhaps even make some sacrifices. What is your thought?
WEST: Well let's -- let's assess where we are today. We did turn the corner beginning in 2006 in Iraq. There is agreement that we are withdrawing, the issue is the pace of the withdrawal. But the combat is basically tapering off in Iraq. It's building up in Afghanistan. Both presidential candidates have pledged they are going to do more in Afghanistan. Now is the time.
You notice the chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff yesterday said we need a new strategy for Afghanistan. So the focus is going to become Afghanistan and Pakistan and some basic questions are going have to be asked. Are we going to engage and if so for what purpose. And how do we handle Pakistan being a sanctuary for terrorists? DOBBS: And how do we rationalize that the poppy crop in Afghanistan has grown over the years and successive years while we're engaged in a battle against the Taliban and al Qaeda. Professor Bacevich, you heard Admiral Mike Mullen say basically we have neither the time nor the troops, sufficient to alter much of the course in Afghanistan. That sounds both fatalistic and peculiar coming from this general staff.
BACEVICH: Well I think it's probably realistic. I think that it is -- it is the Joint Staff that probably has the most realistic appreciation of how limited our military power is. I mean we have to remember the global war on terror is not simply about Iraq and Afghanistan. Even if we could solve the problems of Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow, there's still Pakistan.
(CROSSTALK)
BACEVICH: There's still Iran and the notion that hard power is going to fix those societies is an illusion.
DOBBS: Professor Bacevich, thanks for being here. Bing West, thank you sir. Professor Ajami, thank you very much. Fouad Ajami.
Up next, Independent candidates Bob Barr, Ralph Nader join me to be talking about the issues that some other candidates aren't.
And Hollywood liberals attacking Governor Sarah Palin. Wow, now what are they saying about John McCain's running mate and how much of it can they back up the little darlings? We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, new developments the federal government tonight is reportedly engineering the sale of Lehman Brothers, one of this country's largest investment banks. According to reports the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve have begun arraigning the sale to a consortium of private banks.
Reports say that this deal could be announced as soon as this weekend or perhaps sooner since the word has leaked out. This would be the latest in what has been a series of high profile government interventions and bailouts in the financial sector, including the largest federal institutional bailout ever, mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And the government support for JPMorgan Chase's takeover of Bear Stearns in March.
So far none of the presidential candidates or in fact the leaders of the political parties have addressed the magnitude of this apparently worsening financial crisis or the direct link between economic stability and our national security. Louise Schiavone has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. trade deficit shot off the charts in July, hitting $62.2 billion, the highest in 16 months. Behind it the nation's biggest monthly foreign oil bill yet, $51.4 billion. In an uncertain world with an estimated 2008 debt of $9.7 trillion the United States is the biggest debtor nation.
REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: We have the threat of Islamic terrorism. We've got the global economy that is bringing all new kinds of competition that we have not seen before and we have a fiscal mess in Washington.
SCHIAVONE: In a just released look-ahead to the year 2025, a top U.S. intelligence analyst projects quote, "The overwhelming dominance that the United States has enjoyed in the international system in military, political, economic, and arguably cultural arenas is eroding and will erode at an accelerating pace", end quote.
Not helping, rocky U.S. relations with big oil producers like Iran, Venezuela, and Russia and an uncertain relationship with China, which holds $504 billion in U.S. Treasury securities.
JEFF FAUX, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: You can imagine for example China making a move on Taiwan a few years from now and the United States really not being in a position to be able to protect someone in a country that it's committed to protecting because it owes China so much money.
SCHIAVONE: Also worrisome Lou, says the latest intelligence forecast intensified gaps between rich and poor with tens of millions of the world's poorest migrating to other nations is search of survival and prosperity -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the policy response on the part of this administration for this changing world has been just, at best, negligible.
SCHIAVONE: We are just sort of dead in the water when it comes to all at these issues. And the hope is even among Democrats and Republicans in Congress who are also dead in the water in terms of being able to work with each other; that in the next term something different will take place.
DOBBS: I like the expression "dead in the water" that you've chosen because it suggests to me that our political elites in the nation's capital are both moribund and all wet in their thinking.
Thank you very much, Louise Schiavone.
Well, Mexico's former president Vicente Fox today showing his outright contempt for American workers and business and a lack of understanding about much of this country and his own.
Fox told the Detroit News that Michigan factory worker jobs aren't coming back. Fox said quote, "Michigan factories have to compete with factories in Mexico and China. Companies like General Motors and Ford and Maytag don't have an option. They either close their doors and fire their workers or they move where they can gain economic competitiveness." Fox has been a strong critic of the United States policies on Mexican illegal aliens. He's called this country's efforts to build a fence and to stop that illegal immigration along our southern border an embarrassment and shameful.
This, the man who was president of a country with 50 percent poverty rate and a government so incompetent and so corrupt that it encourages its poor and its uneducated to leave their homeland and come to the United States illegally. Where is the shame there, Mr. Fox?
Well, a new set back in the legal battle to overturn the convictions of former border patrol agents, Ramos and Compean. A Federal court last night denied the petition for a rehearing into their appeal. The Appellate Court in July failed to overturn firearm charges against the two former agents, despite the testimony of Congress that that legislation was never intended to be applied to law enforcement officers.
The petition as I said denied, the two men tonight remain in prison serving lengthy prison sentences. The attorney for Ignacio Ramos told us tonight he is disappointed.
Compean's attorney tells us they will decide whether to take the case to the Supreme Court. They have 90 days in which to file that appeal. A pardon is still possible. But they remains in the hands of the Bush administration which has not seen fit to take any action to reverse its miscarriage of justice in this case.
While the Hollywood liberal elite is at it again, celebrities pushing views on the Republican vice presidential candidate telling the American that this is supposed just how they should think about the good governor.
A Hollywood celebrity, Matt Damon known for his role as a rouge secret agent of the Jason Bourne films, aghast at Senator McCain's choice of Governor Palin as his running mate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT DAMON, ACTOR: I think the pick was made for political purposes but in terms of governance it's a disaster. You do the actuary tables, there is a one out of three chance in not more that McCain doesn't survive his first term and then it will be President Palin. And it really you know we were just talking about it earlier. It's like a really bad Disney movie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Damon went on to criticize Palin's hockey mom roots and her tenure as Alaska's governor. You didn't realized just how talented Matt Damon was did you. His tirade comes of course -- he is an actor and entertainer. He's never been elected to the public office. He did win one contest. People magazine just select him as 2007's Sexiest Man of the Year. And other Hollywood celebrity sounding off about Governor Palin, Whoopi Goldberg in a lengthy diatribe on her blog, describing the governor as quote, "A very dangerous woman."
Now tonight's poll, "Are you grateful that there are celebrities such as Whoopi Goldberg and Matt Damon, to help add to your understanding of political candidates? Yes or No. Cast your vote at Lou dobbs.com. We'll have the results up coming.
Next, Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader, Libertarian Party candidate Bob Barr, they join me. We'll talk about all of the issues the other folks aren't.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Welcome back.
Ralph Nader is running for president as you know as an Independent candidate; Nader a groundbreaking consumer advocate, now on his third major presidential try. And in 2000 Ralph Nader drew almost 3 million votes as the Green Party candidate. And we are delighted to have you with us now.
Now, let's go if I may Ralph straight to a couple of issues and we are focusing on to some large degree tonight on foreign policy. What would you do with our troops in Iraq?
RALPH NADER, (I) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bring them home. A six month negotiated withdrawal deadline. Bring home the soldiers and corporate contractors, give Iraq and its oil back to the Iraqis not the bottom of the insurgency.
During the six months, I should have U.N. sponsored elections and work a little bit of autonomy between Kurds and the Shiites would then unify Iraq which is what they all want. Plus continued humanitarian aid.
Other wise it's just going to fester. They think that its -- the violence is declining but it can explode in any moment if we are still there.
DOBBS: So you want out in ten months --
NADER: Six months.
DOBBS: Sooner than Barack Obama.
NADIR: Well, he'd keep 50,000 soldiers there.
DOBBS: Well, let's turn to Afghanistan.
NADER: That's a tougher issue. We should never -- we should to have had a multilateral strike force go after the backers of the attackers. Instead, we destabilized the whole country again. And you know Afghanistan is not really a country and their tribal chieftains and it's a very tough geographically. So I think that the more soldiers we put in there, what the soldiers do? They fight, they destroy, they blow up. So wedding parties get blown up, children and it fans the flame.
DOBBS: So what are we to do?
NADER: I think we've got to get out of there.
DOBBS: So withdraw from Afghanistan.
NADER: We got to. Unless we see a better plan, because even Admiral Mullen you know and others are saying, there is no military victory there at all.
DOBBS: Were you struck by the fact that Admiral Mullen said straight forwardly there is not enough time, there aren't enough troops?
NADER: He is absolutely right. The Russians couldn't conquer Afghanistan when the Soviet Union, the British couldn't and we're not going to. The best thing that we can do is really push for jobs. For a public works and so on it's a lot cheaper than pouring another 20 or 30 U.S. --
DOBBS: A trillion dollars would have been a lot of investment to support Iraq and Afghanistan, wouldn't it?
NADER: Just think of a trillion dollars rebuilding in this country, schools, clinics, drinking water systems, public transit, good jobs that couldn't be exported to China.
DOBBS: And more than 30,000 American troops wounded and more than 4,000 killed.
NADER: It's actually 100,000 wounded. The Pentagon low balls it.
DOBBS: No, no I don't want to get in to that because I'm going to stick with what we've got and I know there's maybe a logical viewpoint that suggest otherwise but I'm not going to play those games, Ralph not even with you as much as I would like.
NADER: No, no, it's a Pentagon thing; some of these are with the Pentagon rules.
DOBBS: Let's turn to the issue of trade policy and immigration policy. They seem so to have been wedded in the mind of corporate America in terms on their decision to put American labor into direct competition with the cheapest labor in the world. What would you do?
NADER: It'll never work. No American worker can compete with 50 cents an hour hardworking Chinese workers using modern equipment, that's absolute advantage, that's not comparative advantage. So we got to withdraw as is our right, six months notice to withdraw from NAFTA and WTO, renegotiate these agreements so they pull up other conditions in the world and not allow fascist and communist dictatorships with multinational companies in this nation pull down our workers.
DOBBS: We appreciate it very much being with us, Ralph Nader it's good to have you here, come back soon. We have a lot more to talk about.
NADER: You know all the corporate crime, corporate welfare.
For more details, votenader.org.
DOBBS: Votenader.org, you got it. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
NADER: Thank you Lou.
DOBBS: Libertarian party presidential candidate Bob Barr joins me next.
And later in the broadcast we'll hear from three of the country's leading political analysts.
Stay with us. We continue in one moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Former Congressman Bob Barr is the Libertarian Party's candidate for president and former federal prosecutor. Barr represented Georgia's seventh district for eight year as a Republican. In 2006 he joined the Libertarian party and Barr is addressing the critical issues affecting Americans. Including border security, the crisis of illegal immigration.
And we're glad to have you with us here tonight, thank you very much for being here -- Bob.
BOB BARR, LIBERTARIAN PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's my pleasure Lou, thank you.
DOBBS: And how many states are you going to be on the ballot?
BARR: We should be on ballot in 48 or 47 states, a couple of them there were requirements --
DOBBS: In the District of Columbia?
BARR: Yes sir.
DOBBS: And with that and we know that Ralph Nader is going to be around 45, somewhere in there or at least right now maybe more by the time we get to election time. What do you think the impact of your candidacy will be here? BARR: I think it's going to have a major impact. We're already seeing that I mean we're in six percent polling nationally according Zogby, 10 or 11 percent in some states. And some of the issues I think that are finally starting to resonate, some of the perspectives that we've been pushing for a number of months now --
DOBBS: Like what?
BARR: Like the danger of the Fannie Mae bail out, the housing bail out, the Bear Stearns bail out. You know things that the two major parties had just had to sort to say oh we support that and move on without being forced to answer the tough questions.
DOBBS: Oh here is the tough question to me at least in all of these as where do the bail outs stop?
BARR: That is precisely the point. They don't. One bail out leads to another and you can't say well, we can't give you a bail out, we can't help you, even though we've helped others. You open that door and you let them all out.
DOBBS: What do you see as the principal issues in the minds of the American people that's most persuasive for your candidacy?
BARR: Economics. We're turning power to economic power to the people of this country. $3.1 trillion national budget right now, nearly a $10 trillion debts, $400 millions a day going down to drain over in Iraq and the American people are being stretch to the limit and nobody is paying any attention to them. They are more concerned about Iraq for example.
DOBBS: All right, well, as each of those things are matters for great concern. And what would be your judgment on what we should do about Iraq and Afghanistan?
BARR: Two very, very different situations.
In Iraq, we have and will have at the end of this Bush administration still close to 150,000 troops over there with all sorts of support personnel, $400 million a day.
We need to stop that, there is absolutely no justification. We now know that there was not the justification in the first place.
DOBBS: And Afghanistan?
BARR: Afghanistan, what we should be doing there is not propping up the government which props up the drug lords and all sorts of other undesirables. Use very specific, very surgical operations to ferret out the terrorists.
DOBBS: And as Libertarian let me ask you this, returning to the issue of the bail outs; the roll of regulation in these markets and these institutions collapsing?
BARR: Well, the role of the government first of all, is to prevent fraud and it already has the tools to do that. If in fact the government did caused through -- too much support for these government-sponsored enterprises, then it has the responsibility to responsibly find an exit strategy. But what Obama and Senator McCain are both supporting is not an exit strategy it's continued government propping up. That's not a long term solution.
DOBBS: The national sovereignty security -- border securities specifically the illegal immigration crisis.
BARR: First of all, we have to secure the borders. Libertarians believe very strongly in securing the border and protecting the national sovereignty. You put as many personnel on the border as you need to, to police the borders properly. And to require those seeking to enter these country to do so lawfully.
DOBBS: Bob Barr, thank you very much.
BARR: Thank you Lou.
DOBBS: Libertarian candidate for president. Good to see you.
BARR: Thanks.
DOBBS: Up next, Barack Obama tries to explain his lipstick on a pig comment. Three of the best political analyst in the country will assess just how we did on that. We'll have that and a great deal more. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR, "ELECTION CENTER": I'm Campbell Brown in the CNN Election Center.
We have got something very special coming up tonight. John McCain and Barack Obama will take part in a 90-minute National Forum on Service. They will be questioned back to back; we're going to bring it to you live. And then the members of the best political team on television will join me for analysis.
And a look at today's other big political news; Sarah Palin's first sit down interview.
Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now three of the best political analysts, Carol Swain, professor of Political Science from Vanderbilt University Law School. Professor Swain, a contributing editor of "Debating Nation;" Diana West, syndicated columnist CNN contributor; and author of "The Death of the Grown-Up, Tom Defrank, Washington Bureau Chief, New York "Daily News."
Tom, it's been a while. Good to have you here.
Let's get right to it. This is how Governor Palin answered Charlie Gibson on the issue of supporting the Ukraine in Georgia in NATO. Here's what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SARAH PALIN, (R) VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Ukraine, definitely, yes, yes, and Georgia. Putin thinks otherwise, obviously he thinks other-wise.
CHARLES GIBSON, ABC ANCHOR: Under the NATO Treaty, wouldn't we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia?
PALIN: Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to called upon and help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Well, now, ABC put out a little press release on that that was pretty dramatic. Did you find a problem with what she said there?
TOM DEFRANK, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: It was a little murky and a little not totally crisp because you could read it one way and suggest that she didn't realize Georgia was not in NATO.
DOBBS: Or the Ukraine for that matter. Notice I said the Ukraine again. Ukraine.
DEFRANK: Ukraine. That's right. I think as a first time out, I think it was better than expected. The McCain people have done a terrific job in lowering expectations for governor --
DOBBS: I think the Democrats have done a pretty good job of that.
DEFRANK: Democrats have helped, too. She's doing better than expected. If that keeps up she will continue to be the net plus she has been since she was named.
DOBBS: Diana West?
DIANA WEST, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, on that particular issue, that is the only answer one can give, given the obligations of NATO membership. I hope we'll be seeing more discussion about NATO members stepping up to the plate in terms of their own defense in the future.
DOBBS: Carol?
PROF. CAROL SWAIN, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: What I really liked, she said if we have an agreement, then we have to honor our agreement. I think that that's what most people would like from our government; that it would be true to its agreements and it doesn't always do that. I think it's refreshing that we might have some politicians that might actually try to honor their agreements.
DOBBS: Both Senators Obama and Biden are attacking Governor Palin on the campaign trail. Is that very smart what they're doing?
DEFRANK: It depends how you attack her. If I were Biden and Obama, I'd lie low, be a little careful at this point. There's time for that. The vice-presidential debate is not until October 2nd. I would be a little careful if I were them.
WEST: This was not a smart week on the Democratic side in terms of attacking Governor Palin. I think that that's something that not just lying low; I think it's time for them to kind of regroup and rethink if they want to score any points here. This was a goofy week for the Democrats.
SWAIN: They seem to be feeling their way around. I think they attack and then they'll check the polls and if Obama goes up, they'll attack more. If it goes down --
DOBBS: Senator Obama was at -- speaking of immigration, you're the editor of Debating Immigration, we'll return to you real quickly on this.
Obama started talking about demagoguery on the issue of immigration and border security. He was making his comments before the Hispanic Conference Institute last night, pandering at an extraordinary rate, suggesting it was the demagogues who were doing stop illegal immigration and he would give them wide open borders and straight pathway to amnesty. How's that for construction?
SWAIN: For more than two decades, Americans have wanted something different on immigration and the politicians have been on a different page. And so both political parties have failed in that regard. None of them are representing the preferences of the American people.
DOBBS: Diana, the idea that these two candidates right now have reversed positions in the polls. I said before the convention began, this was Senator Obama's elections to lose. It now appears it's Senator McCain's election to lose. That's quite a dramatic turn.
WEST: It's incredible. I mean the whole thing. It really woke us all up after the August doldrums. But I think what we've seen is the Obama campaign not coming back really from its vacation early in August and never getting back on to its mark.
I don't know if it will because now we're seeing them up against the ropes. And the reactions of Senator Obama have not been good political nose reactions. I don't think he's hearing how he's coming across and I don't think they know what to do with this wildcat, Sarah Palin.
DOBBS: It is a remarkable development. I've never seen a candidate generate so much hostility as Palin has amongst Democrats and certainly some of the more arguments. What's going on there?
DEFRANK: Richard Nixon had his share of animosity to be sure but you're right about that.
DOBBS: He was a well-known figure. She just burst into the scene.
SWAIN: It is the elitism because I know that in academia, someone like Sarah Palin, people just can't relate to why American people --
DOBBS: This is Governor Palin returning to Alaska for the ceremony for her son's send-off with the other troops to Iraq today.
Tom, what do you think?
DEFRANK: Whatever's going on here, it's clear she's doing better than the Democrats thought and it's also clear the Democrats are trying to figure out a way to attack her as being unqualified without doing it in a way that creates a backlash.
All you can say at the moment, Lou, is McCain is hot, Obama is not. But it's 7 1/2 weeks to go to this election. And there'll be several twists and turns to come.
DOBBS: Absolutely. I can't wait for them.
At the same time, I find it fascinating the vitriol that she has inspired on the Democratic side. It's unseemly.
WEST: She's an anti-establishment candidate. The Democrats don't want to see such a personage emerge out of Conservativism.
DOBBS: I wonder how many Republicans want to see her emerge.
WEST: She's drawing independents, right?
DOBBS: By the way, 62 percent of men view her favorably, only 53 percent of women. Go figure.
Thank you all for being here. Appreciate it.
Our poll results tonight, only a third of you said you are grateful that there are celebrities like Whoopi Goldberg and Matt Damon to add to your understanding of our political presidential candidates.
Thanks for joining us tonight. Thanks for being with us tonight.
Join us here tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching.
Good night from Washington D.C. America Votes 2008, Ready to Service is next here on CNN.
