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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Daring Rescue; U.S.-Cuba Restrictions; Tax Rip-off Backlash; Red Storm Rising; Rights under Fire
Aired April 13, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf. Good evening everybody.
New details tonight on the remarkable operation to free Captain Richard Phillips from Somali pirates, the nation tonight celebrating the bravery of U.S. Navy SEALs, the crew of the "Bainbridge," Captain Phillips, the U.S. Navy, and everyone aboard his ship, the "Maersk Alabama".
Also tonight, the Obama administration announcing those sweeping changes in U.S. policy towards Cuba and immediately facing a storm of protests, critics accusing the Obama White House of making unilateral concessions to a dictatorship and anti-tax revolt spreading across the country amid rising concern that the government's economic policies in higher state and local taxes.
Also tonight, your Second Amendment rights under assault. One state considering a ban of certain types of firearms according to the zip code you live in and the legal battle over charges of reverse discrimination among firefighters intensifying. We'll have the very latest for you here tonight.
Well, we begin with the Navy's daring rescue of Captain Richard Phillips from pirates off the coast of Somalia. We learn today that Navy SEALs on the stern of the "USS Bainbridge" simultaneously killed the three pirates holding Captain Phillips. The SEALs fired three shots in darkness at the pirates' lifeboat from the war ship on a rolling sea.
It was a stunning achievement and testimony to the skill and the bravery of those SEALs and the crew of the "Bainbridge". President Obama today broke his silence on the crisis, saying the United States will confront pirates and will hold them accountable -- Candy Crowley with our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president didn't talk about it publicly until it was over.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to take a moment to say how pleased I am about the rescue of Captain Phillips and his safe return to the "USS Boxer" this weekend.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: His safety has been our principle concern. CROWLEY: For four days, he said nothing in front of the cameras, tossing off questions with customary cool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somali pirates?
(CROSSTALK)
OBAMA: Guys, we're talking about housing right now.
CROWLEY: But in the aftermath of the successful operation, the White House spelled out the nature of the president's involvement, 17 briefings and two presidential directives. Friday night, he gave the military authority to use appropriate force to save the captain. And Saturday morning, an additional set of U.S. forces got authority to engage in potential emergency actions.
Sunday, Navy SEALs shot dead three pirates and Captain Phillips was rescued. It's not Iran or Afghanistan or 9/11, but it was an early test of an untested commander in chief, sometimes questioned about his willingness to use the might of the U.S. military. This time, he was willing.
OBAMA: We're going to have to continue to work with our partners to prevent future attacks. We have to continue to be prepared to confront them when they arise. And we have to ensure that those who commit acts of piracy are held accountable for their crimes.
CROWLEY: Prevention won't be easy. Two thousand ships a month go through the Gulf of Aden and Somalia, base of operations for the pirates, has been in a state of collapse for two decades. Experts in the region say in the long run, Somalia has to change and be changed, even a P.R. effort would help.
KARIN VON HIPPEL, CTR. FOR STRATEGIC AND INTL. STUDIES: Somalis listen to the radio, for example. BBC Somali Service (INAUDIBLE) really have a good public relation campaign, saying these guys aren't heroes. They're not protecting your coastlines from illegal fishing. They're actually hurting you. This ship had food aid on it.
CROWLEY: Somalia is a long-run project. In the short run, Captain Phillips is safe, and the man his aides call no drama Obama has an early political victory as commander in chief.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: A political victory he owes in no small part to the U.S. Navy and some expert marksmanship by U.S. Navy SEALs. This may only be a temporary political victory for the president, but in the end, that's a lot better than failure, which tends to last longer. Lou?
DOBBS: And hopefully, and in no way overtakes or overwhelms the act of those SEALs and what they accomplished to rescue the commander, Commander Phillips, quite a feat. Thank you very much, Candy -- Candy Crowley from Washington. New details tonight of what happened before and during that operation to free Captain Phillips. As Candy Crowley reported, President Obama authorized lethal force Friday night. Thirteen hours later, President Obama issued a second order to what officials call an additional set of U.S. forces, presumably a reference to the SEAL team that parachuted on to the scene Saturday.
When negotiations broke down, the on scene commander believed that a pirate was about to shoot Captain Phillips. So he ordered the Navy SEALs to open fire first. A defense official told CNN that each pirate was shot in the head. A remarkable feat of marksmanship considering it was dark, the snipers were some 100 feet away from the boat where the pirates were holding Captain Phillips hostage.
In Somalia, anti-government rebels today fired mortar shells at an airport in Mogadishu as a plane carrying a congressman took off. That attack came hours after the Navy SEALs had rescued Captain Phillips off the Somali coast. The congressman, Donald Payne, was not in any way injured. His aircraft took off safely. The congressman was in Somalia, discussing piracy, security, and relations between the United States and Somalia.
Turning to the war in Iraq, insurgents today killed one of our soldiers south of Baghdad. The soldier is the seventh to be killed in combat since Friday. Ten of our troops have been killed so far in Iraq this month; 4,275 of our troops have been killed since the war began; 31,169 of our troops wounded; 13,720 of them seriously.
Violence on the streets of the Thai capital of Bangkok today, the worst in three years of political chaos -- troops there opened fire on anti-government protesters. Those protesters demanding the resignation of Thailand's prime minister. It is not clear whether the soldiers fired rubber bullets into the crowds or live ammunition. Two people were killed in fighting between anti-government demonstrators and supporters of the prime minister in later clashes.
New developments tonight in the showdown over North Korea's ICBM missile tests when Pyongyang defied President Obama and the United States and launched that missile -- the United Nations Security Council today passed a resolution that criticizes North Korea some eight days after the North Koreans fired that missile. The Security Council also demanded enforcement of existing U.N. sanctions and an end to all missile tests. We should point out that the United Nations tried that approach before, failing to stop North Korea's missile test on the fifth of this month.
The Obama administration today announced a major shift in U.S. policy toward Cuba -- the Obama administration lifting travel and financial restrictions for Cuban Americans and only Cuban Americans. Restrictions for other ethnic groups remain in force. Cuba has made no concessions to the United States at all for this change in policy. Ed Henry has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president is keeping a campaign promise made last May in Miami, the most sweeping U.S. opening to communist Cuba in decades.
OBAMA: It's time to let Cuban Americans see their mothers and their fathers, their sisters and their brothers. It's time to let Cuban American money make their families less dependent on the Castro regime.
HENRY: Mr. Obama is lifting Bush administration restrictions that limited Cuban travel by Americans to just two weeks every three years. The 1.5 million Americans with relatives in Cuba can now enjoy unlimited travel and money transfers.
The president is also expanding the list of objects that can be included in gift parcels to Cuba. Clothes, personal hygiene items, seeds, and fishing gear, all aimed at weakening the Castro brothers' grip on the Cuban people.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: All who embrace core Democratic values long for a Cuba that respects the basic human, political, and economic rights of all of its citizens. President Obama believes the measure he has taken today will help make that goal a reality.
HENRY: But Republican lawmakers Lincoln Diaz-Balart and Mario Diaz-Balart, Cuban American brothers from Florida, issued a joint statement calling the move a serious mistake that will give the dictatorship financial support. Quote, "unilateral concessions to the dictatorship embolden it to further isolate, imprison, and brutalize pro-democracy activists", they charge. The president did stop short of overturning the U.S. trade embargo with Cuba.
OBAMA: It provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice. If you take significant steps towards democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now the president is doing this now, because later this week he's headed to Trinidad for the summit of The Americas. In advance of that trip, he wants to show a dramatic shift in U.S. policy. But his critics on Capitol Hill tonight are warning that he may have weakened the U.S.' hand with Cuba ahead of that summit. Lou?
DOBBS: And is their concern about the positions of the Caribbean nations to this action, which will if it extended to full recognition of Cuba and a lifting of the sanctions, could be devastating on their economies.
HENRY: Absolutely. And that question is now out there and the administration is being very careful to not tip their hand as to whether they're moving towards a full lifting of the trade embargo. That's obviously a very delicate issue. They're saying they want to let this play out for some time. They'll get to that at a later date, but there's clearly -- this is still a very sensitive issue throughout that region and all around the world, Lou. DOBBS: And we should point out something under active consideration by each of the administrations, save the last, since the early '90s. That is the normalizing of relations between Cuba and the United States. Thank you very much -- Ed Henry from the White House.
HENRY: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Up next, the legal battle over charges of reverse discrimination among firefighters intensifies. We'll have that story.
And new details of a national security threat that the Obama administration is apparently choosing to ignore from a huge spying network operating in this country.
And rising protests across the nation at the president's economic policies and a new economic fact of life in many states and municipalities across the country -- we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Taxpayers all across the country tonight outraged over tax hikes that could affect everything from shopping bags to wine, cell phone usage as well. But when it comes to cell phones, few are being hit as hard as New Yorkers. The "New York Post" reporting today on the 11 -- 11 federal state and city taxes that New Yorkers must pay on their cell phone bills. Those fees could add as much as 33 percent to cell phone costs.
People trying to save money are being hit the hardest, of course. The highest tax rates are on the cheapest plans and multi-line family plans. Tax hikes like that have sparked plans for nationwide protests. This Wednesday, April 15th, the deadline for tax returns and in a modern-day revival of the Boston Tea Party organizers want Americans to send tea bags to their congressmen to show their anger at how this government is handling the economic crisis. Brianna Keilar has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a modern- day Boston Tea Party, a scene that's played out in recent weeks from Los Angeles to Oklahoma City to Jacksonville, Florida, protests against taxes, the bailout, the $787 billion stimulus, and President Obama's budget.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are spending money we don't have on programs we don't need to fix problems that you have caused.
KEILAR: A coalition of conservative groups have recruited protest organizers online and on Wednesday, tax day, hundreds of U.S. cities will host the small protests, according to various estimates by organizers. They're also encouraging Americans to send tea bags to their members of Congress and the U.S. Postal Service spokeswoman tells CNN, "Employees have noticed some spillage of tea" as they sort mail headed for Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KEILAR: And Lou, the Democratic response here on Capitol Hill is to minimize the reach of these protests, questioning whether or not they're really grassroots protests, while at the same time emphasizing President Obama's tax plan. A tax cut for most Americans, but not all Americans, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, there's some humor in that, isn't there, because most of the demonstrations that we've seen across the country from, if you will, the left or the Democratic Party have been organized by MoveOn.org, various special interest groups of all sorts, depending on the protests. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that there would be organized political involvement in this, right Brianna?
KEILAR: No there's not. And depending on who you talk to, Lou, if you're talking from the right here on Capitol Hill, they're emphasizing the grassroots organizations. If you listen to the left, they're emphasizing that there are some conservative groups who are involved. But the truth seems to really lie in the middle. That there are a lot of people, individual Americans, who are fed up you know who are worried about taxes and worried about economic approaches.
And they're going through Web sites in some cases from some of these groups who are allowing them to organize and set up posts on these Web sites so they can reach out to other people. There seems to be a little bit of both going on, Lou.
DOBBS: All right and as you said, Brianna, and I happen to think it works this way most of the time, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Thanks, Brianna Keilar from Capitol Hill.
Straight ahead here, a firearms ban, discriminating by zip code and some say by race. Lawmakers are considering a controversial new Bill, another assault on our Second Amendment rights. We'll be telling you about that.
Also, a massive foreign spy network in this country, we'll tell you why the Obama administration and the Justice Department seem uninterested in doing anything about it at all. That's next. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New evidence tonight of the massive espionage campaign in this country run by communist China. Critics say the federal government simply isn't doing enough to stop or to prosecute Chinese spies in this country. Kitty Pilgrim has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Square D, an electronics company with an estimated $2 million in U.S. sales, is suing a Chinese company and its U.S. distributors in U.S. courts for stealing, counterfeiting, and selling its electronic designs. Square D reported the case to the FBI, ICE, and Justice Department, but decided to go to court for swift action.
STEVE LICHTFIELD, SQUARE D COMPANY: Square D has been cooperating with the authorities and these investigations are ongoing. But in the meantime, our civil actions have progressed. To date, we have kept about half a million of these counterfeit circuit breakers off the market.
PILGRIM: Square D also hired its own investigators to raid the factory in China it says was counterfeiting its product and spent millions on legal fees. The company is still waiting to hear back from federal officials on the results of their investigations. There are 3,500 Chinese front companies in the United States engaged in industrial espionage, stealing designs and intellectual property, and some of it military, according to the FBI.
PROF. GRAHAM ALLISON, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Most of these firms that could engage in illegal activity have a front cover and have a lot of activity that's legal on the one side, but then use that as deception, in effect, or cover for their illegal activity.
PILGRIM: An FBI spokesman told us one of its main jobs is to investigate issues of foreign intelligence and spying, but when asked about the speed of prosecution or the agency's record on Chinese industrial espionage cases, the spokesman says there is no way to quantify the work the FBI has done and much of it cannot be made public. China has repeatedly said it aggressively prosecutes counterfeiters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Square D is not the only case of alleged Chinese espionage in U.S. courts. Now last week a high profile Chinese spying case was brought by the Manhattan District attorney, who charged a Chinese national with setting up shell companies to ship banned military and nuclear parts to Iran, again, using U.S. courts to prosecute Chinese nationals -- Lou.
DOBBS: And did the FBI explain why they weren't involved in that case either?
PILGRIM: No. Well actually there was some participation. Everyone says there's some participation, but the U.S. courts, the fastest way to go in getting the cases moving. That's what the companies are telling us.
DOBBS: Some people might consider that pitiful. Others, I guess, would just consider it government at work. Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
A recent government report found that communist China continues to attack U.S. government, military and commercial computers; the U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission also finding that U.S. computer networks remain extraordinarily vulnerable to cyber attacks. China's cyber espionage campaign has run so sophisticated that it could launch a cyber attack at any time. Security experts say that China has created an army of hackers to gain access to U.S. computer systems. The Pentagon reports there are three million cyber attacks on Defense Department computers each day.
Up next here, the very latest on the legal battle over charges of reverse discrimination among firefighters, a case that is being watched by state and local governments all across the entire country, headed now to the Supreme Court. And a Supreme Court justice sparking controversy on another issue facing charges she's indifferent to America's sovereignty.
And your Second Amendment rights under assault still, again, this time one state lawmaker's threat to the Second Amendment, according to the zip code that some folks in Illinois happen to live in, that story and more straight ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Lawmakers across the country tonight continue their assault on our Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, Illinois' legislature now considering legislation that would ban people living in certain zip codes from owning certain types of firearms. And there's another attempt in Washington, D.C., to adopt more gun control. Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you live in certain predominantly black or Hispanic neighborhoods on Chicago's south side, your right to bear arms could be in jeopardy. The Automatic Weapons Safe Zone Act 2009, the Illinois legislature would make certain types of guns illegal in those neighborhoods and only those neighborhoods. They are mainly inner city areas with high crime rates. The bill would impose a ban on semiautomatic guns, assault weapons. The vendors of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms are outraged.
RICHARD PEARSON, ILLINOIS STATE RIFLE ASSOCIATION: It discriminates against black people, against Hispanic people, and none of them are criminals. They're all citizens like everyone else is. So I don't know why a representative like Mr. Thapedi would introduce such a bill.
TUCKER: The sponsor of the bill is Chicago Democratic State Representative Andre Thapedi. He declined our request for an interview. Gun control is also on the agenda in Washington, D.C. The Supreme Court ruled last year that the district's 30-year ban on handguns violated Second Amendment rights.
The mayor of D.C. predicted the ruling would result in more handgun violence and the district adopted a new restrictive gun law, which allows only guns on a roster to be registered. All others are banned. A court challenge has already been filed by the Second Amendment Foundation, which argues gun control keeps guns only out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun control in general is misguided for one key reason. It's based on the fact the only people that obey those laws are law-abiding citizens and because of that it can't ever work. (END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Gun rights groups promise that if the gun control bill is passed in Illinois, it too will be challenged. They say the bill is worded so that if any part of it is found unconstitutional, the zip codes could be dropped and they say Illinois could then find itself with a de facto statewide assault weapon ban, Lou.
DOBBS: Oh, they're being very cute in Illinois as well then.
TUCKER: Exactly.
DOBBS: All right, Bill, thank you very much -- Bill Tucker.
Well New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg fighting gun rights in Virginia, Bloomberg personally financing an ad for the Virginia governor's race -- the ad criticizing that state's former attorney general, the Republican's presumptive nominee, and a supporter of gun rights. The ad ties the Virginia Tech massacre with a so-called loophole in the law that allows guns to be sold without background checks at gun shows.
But the weapons used at Virginia Tech were not bought at a gun show. No one seems to want to take too much note of that fact. In fact, a 2006 FBI study of attacks on police officers, for example, found that none of the weapons used in those attacks were purchased at gun shows. And an earlier Justice Department study finds that fewer than one percent of inmates serving time in state prisons obtained their guns at a gun show.
Bloomberg has backed two anti-gun candidates in the past two years; both candidates lost their election bids. We'd like to know what you think about all of this. Our poll question tonight, do you believe Mayor Bloomberg of New York should spend more time fixing his city's potholes than threatening the Second Amendment rights of Americans? Or possibly interfering in other state's elections? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you here later in the broadcast.
And apparent threat to America's sovereignty tonight, a tremendous debate over a suggestion by Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg-- Justice Ginsburg said American judges should refer to foreign law in their court proceedings and interpretations. Lisa Sylvester has our report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States allows the death penalty. Thirty-five states have statutes permitting it. But many other countries object to the death penalty. It's one area where U.S. laws and foreign laws may not be in sync. The U.S. Supreme Court justices are divided on whether foreign laws should be used to influence the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg speaking at Ohio State University argued foreign precedent should be considered. RUTH BADER GINSBURG, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: Why shouldn't we look to the wisdom of a judge from abroad with at least as much ease (ph) as we would read a law review article written by a professor.
SYLVESTER: But the conservative members of the high court lead by Chief Justice John Roberts say no, that when it comes to constitutional matters, foreign citations have no place in interpreting U.S. laws and the U.S. Constitution.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: The leading opponents of using foreign law, Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas, say this is the United States. We didn't pass those other laws in those countries. We don't subscribe to the laws of Europe.
SYLVESTER: Ginsburg believes the conservative views are a passing phase and she says that if the United States expects to be a judicial leader, we should be willing to at least consider the decisions of other countries.
GINSBURG: You will not be listened to if you don't listen to others.
SYLVESTER: Georgetown University law professor Paul Rothstein says aside from the death penalty, there are other areas where the United States might differ from Western Europe, stemming from the United States' unique history, culture, and values. The notions of unreasonable search and seizure, abortion and the rights of states. He says the conservative members of the court might worry about a slippery slope.
PROF. PAUL ROTHSTEIN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: If we do it a little bit, we'll do it more and more and pretty soon our sovereignty will be gone, our distinctiveness will be gone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (on camera): And Rothstein says some of the conservative members may also be concerned because the European countries are considerably more to the left of the United States and that using their rulings to determine U.S. decisions might be the beginning of a leftward swing. Lou?
DOBBS: Might be? I would love to go through all of those nation states of Europe that have, say, the Second Amendment that we have, the due process requirements of this -- you know, this is plainly, on its face and baldly a bizarre statement by Ruth Bader Ginsburg, whether conservative or liberal. My God! This is crazy to me.
SYLVESTER: Yeah. It's a really -- it's a really interesting argument here. But essentially, she's saying that if we want the U.S. Supreme Court to be looked at by other nations, well, then we should follow their courts. But, clearly, these countries have -- the United States has a very different unique history and there are some concerns that the United States' sovereignty could be on the line here or is actually on the line. DOBBS: On so many fronts. And to have a sitting U.S. justice making these kind of comments, I mean, it just leaves you scratching your head as to what in the world she could possibly be thinking about. Because, frankly, we don't care if any other nation follows our Supreme Court. We have enough trouble get our own court system to follow our Supreme Court. Thank you very much, Lisa. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Well, here's an idea for Justice Ginsburg. Perhaps she would like to meet and talk with Saudi Judge Sheikh Kabib al Habib (ph), who has again denied to annul a marriage between a 48-year-old man and an eight-year-old girl. Justice, I think you should really talk to Judge al-Habib. By the way, the child's father arranged that marriage in order to settle debts, an interesting custom. Perhaps Justice Ginsburg would with like us to bring that custom to the United States. The girl's mother, by the way, petitioned the court for the divorce. The judge says the court can appeal to the court herself once she reaches puberty.
Up next, the first family has a new dog, but it's the vice president's dog that's causing all the controversy, including death threats for the person the vice president got the dog from. We'll have that story.
And charges of reverse discrimination. White firefighters, Latino firefighters denied promotion, taking their case to the Supreme Court. I'll be talking with a leading attorney for the defendants here next. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, white and Latino firefighters in New Haven, Connecticut, claim they were denied promotions as a result of reverse discrimination. Those firefighters claim the city threw out the results of a promotion test because no black candidates scored well enough to qualify for promotion. Now the case goes before the U.S. Supreme Court this month. Joining me now is Victor Bolden. Victor represents the City of New Haven. It's great to have you with us.
VICTOR BOLDEN, CORP. COUNSEL, NEW HAVEN: Thanks for having me here, Lou.
DOBBS: This case, it's -- are you surprised the Supreme Court took it?
BOLDEN: I am surprised. I think this is a case that involves issues -- well, let me say this. One of the sad things is this is a -- I've dealt with discrimination issues for a number of years and one of the things I have learned is one has to be very careful when you've made charges of racism.
DOBBS: When you say that, you formerly have been general counsel for the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund.
BOLDEN: Yes.
DOBBS: Just putting it in context.
BOLDEN: Yes. Sure. I've had experience with discrimination suits and defending against them. And I think it's very, very important to be very, very cautious when you throw around charges of racism. And I think what you have is a situation here ...
DOBBS: Do you think that's the same thing. Is reverse discrimination the same thing as racism?
BOLDEN: At the end of the -- I can make it even simpler. I think one has to be very careful when you throw around claims of discrimination. They obviously have a taint in society so we have to be careful how you walk through in dealing with them.
DOBBS: There are people who are advocates of various causes in this country I would like you to talk to.
BOLDEN: Like I said, you learn things and you try to apply that knowledge and you hope to sort of use it ...
DOBBS: In this case, it seems on one level to be pretty clear. Twenty firefighters, 19 white, one Latino, take a test in 2003. They scored the highest of those folks taking the test. Not one black firefighter was on that top 15. And at that point, the city threw out, effectively, threw out the promotion test, and in the almost six years intervening, has not promoted a single lieutenant, not a single captain, hasn't administered another test, and that sounds kind of squirrelly, doesn't it?
BOLDEN: Well, no, it isn't. And once you sort of understand ...
DOBBS: Well, why would you give the test in 2003 if you didn't need those folks?
BOLDEN: Well, no, no, no. I think the important thing is the city was trying to figure out what the right test is. And I think it's very important to understand that the claims and the issues that the city had with the test that was administered is a claim that has been supported by employers' groups, groups that represent over 300 major U.S. corporations. We've gotten support from states like Utah and Nevada. We have gotten support from experts.
So a lot of people have raised questions about the exam. And the problem is, the city has an obligation ...
DOBBS: What was wrong with the exam?
BOLDEN: The city has a legal obligation to make sure it gives an examination that is not only race neutral but also gender neutral, make sure we don't discriminate based on age or disability or ethnicity. So we have a host of obligations we have to ...
DOBBS: A lot of folks right now are scratching their heads.
BOLDEN: I understand that. DOBBS: Because it sounds pretty straightforward. You're going to make a man or a woman a lieutenant or a captain in the Fire Department, you want your best, your most highly qualified...
BOLDEN: I don't think there's any question. But the question is whether or not -- hold on, hold on, let me finish. I think the question is, Lou, is whether or not the examination that was administered was going to do the best job that we need to identify who is the most qualified. And those are the questions that we had here.
DOBBS: My question then is this, Victor. If that was the point, then why didn't the city come up with a better test, and why in God's green earth wouldn't the City of New Haven have administered an exam following that that was race, gender, whatever you want, neutral.
It looks like -- it looks to me like, if you want to know the truth, just me, it looks like what monsignor, one of my mentors as a young man used to call the (expletive deleted) pot of City Hall. It looks like bad, bad local politics.
BOLDEN: That wasn't the case here. You had a situation where the city went through a very deliberative process to decide whether or not it should administer this exam. And after going through that process and rendering a decision, having its Civil Service Board, these are volunteer members of the New Haven community, who volunteered to listen to all the evidence, they decided not to administer this exam.
After that decision was rendered, the city was then sued. We have been caught in the midst of this litigation. We are committed ...
DOBBS: You say they decided not to ...
BOLDEN: It was a split vote which meant the city couldn't certified that exam.
DOBBS: The fire commissioner himself interfered in the entire process.
BOLDEN: There was no interference with respect to the decision made by the Civil Service Board. And there's no evidence that they were improperly influenced. I mean, I think that's very, very important for people to understand. You had, like I said, these are citizens - these are volunteers. Unpaid.
DOBBS: You mean unpaid by the city.
BOLDEN: Unpaid by the city, but they're volunteers.
DOBBS: I'm not naive about city politics here, and certainly not naive about New Haven.
BOLDEN: Let me say this. The city's decision not to go forward and promoted based on the exam is one that is supported by other organizations ... DOBBS: My question is, why, if this is the hearts of those folks running the City of New Haven, whether paid or not, if their hearts are so pure, why hasn't there been another exam posted for promotion since?
BOLDEN: We're going to, obviously, figure out the best way to ensure that the most qualified people have those positions.
DOBBS: Victor, it's been almost six years. I'm just asking a simple question.
BOLDEN: I hear what you're saying. And I'm telling you, the reality is -- hang on, hang on, hang on.
DOBBS: No, you hang on, I'm asking a simple question.
BOLDEN: The reality is the city's caught up with in a situation where they're trying to figure out what its legal obligations are.
DOBBS: The poor little darlings are caught up in a situation of their own making.
BOLDEN: That's not true.
DOBBS: They are big boys and girls ...
BOLDEN: No ...
DOBBS: The mayor is not responsible for the city, the City Council?
BOLDEN: Let me make sure you understand my point.
DOBBS: Good because I don't.
BOLDEN: That's fine. Let me explain it. The city, once it wasn't able to promote based on this exam. The city was then sued. And the city made its decision not to go forward because it was concerned of being violative of the law. And it was being respectful of federal law. That's a position that's supported by employers, supported by states, supported by a host of groups and people recognize that that's the right thing to do. And I think you're an individual who's certainly been an advocate for business. And a lot of people in the business community have filed briefs if support.
Because they recognize, if you validate the position of the plaintiffs here, which is you don't give flexibility for employers to not go forward on an exam that's problematic, you create a situation that's a real litigation minefield. And that's what the city's in right now. It's in a litigation minefield. Where it's not sure where to step, where they might step on a bomb and create a lot of uncertainty and problems.
DOBBS: A lot of the uncertainty could have been created by, for example, not only by City Hall politics, but also by a court system, which in this instance, in this case, after a judge had heard the arguments for two years and the evidence presented, was replaced as summary judgments were sought by both sides. There looks like -- frankly, it looks like absolutely politicization of the federal court system.
BOLDEN: Well, I don't think that anyone had anything -- well, don't think any of the allegations about how the court system had to make a decision here, you know, really plays a role. But I think the most important thing ...
DOBBS: You can say that you don't think, but the problem is, the facts speak for themselves. The judgment has been placed ...
BOLDEN: No, no, no. The facts don't speak for themselves in the sense that the decision that was rendered here was a decision that the plaintiffs in this case weren't able to provide the facts sufficient to prove a violation of the law. That's why the case was thrown out. So at the end of the day ...
DOBBS: And the appellate court issued a one-paragraph explanation.
BOLDEN: Yeah. Because they understood ...
DOBBS: Does that strike you as slightly imperious.
BOLDEN: No. Not imperious. It understood that the bottom line is here, that the plaintiffs have not proven a case of discrimination. They don't have the facts sufficient to go forward to even have a trial.
DOBBS: So you believe the Supreme Court will simply dismiss this case out of hand?
BOLDEN: We obviously don't know what the Supreme Court's going to do. They're going to hear the case and we're hopeful they're going to rule in favor of the city, as THE other courts have.
DOBBS: How long have you been on the job?
BOLDEN: I have been on the job three months. I learn fast.
DOBBS: Perhaps the chief justice will simply call you up ask for your judgment on the facts as well as the law.
BOLDEN: The city will present its arguments and hopefully we'll prevail.
DOBBS: And hopefully we'll see less politicization ...
BOLDEN: Like I said, politics did not play a role ...
DOBBS: I know they don't. They never do.
BOLDEN: This is a decision made on the facts.
DOBBS: We're going to just for fun here on LOU DOBBS, we're going to be reporting on this for quite some time, diligently, frequently, and we're going to find out. Because it's a fascinating story.
BOLDEN: And you'll find out the city did the job it was supposed to do and the fine members of the Civil Service Board don't deserve to be tainted with claims of race discrimination.
DOBBS: I didn't claim anybody ...
BOLDEN: I'm not saying you are, but that's in essence what the case is about.
DOBBS: I think the case is about reverse discrimination.
BOLDEN: I understand. But ...
DOBBS: It's about the worst in city politics and it's the worst in, actually, politics in our court system. That's got to be rooted out.
BOLDEN: They're claims of race discrimination.
DOBBS: We appreciate in your first three months you can adjudicate that but we're going to see what the courts have got to say.
BOLDEN: I understand.
DOBBS: It's great to talk with you. Come back soon and we'll have much more to discuss as this month unfolds.
BOLDEN: All right. Have a good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, victor.
BOLDEN: Take care, now.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, NO BIAS, NO BULL, Roland Martin in for Campbell Brown. Roland?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN HOST: Lou, tonight, Captain Richard Phillips is recovering on the USS Boxer after being held captive by Somali pirates. We're getting new details on what was happening at the White House as that hostage drama was unfolding thousands of miles away. And how did President Barack Obama handle his first international crisis? Well, we'll break it down.
Plus, we'll debate the administration's new policy on Cuba. Is it the beginning of the end for the embargo?
And the real deal on your taxes. Does the president's plan mean a big tax hike for you? No drama, no hysterics, just facts. Lou, that's all at the top of the hour.
DOBBS: Well, that sounds pretty dull. A little drama, a little hysteria. Come on. MARTIN: No, no, no. We don't allow drama to get in the way of real facts.
DOBBS: I didn't say get in the way, I was just talking mix them up a little.
MARTIN: We'll have drama, but no hysterics.
DOBBS: All right. We negotiated our way to a good compromise there, Roland. Thanks a lot.
MARTIN: No problem.
DOBBS: It's official, the first family has a first dog. A six- month-old Portuguese water dog named Bo after Michelle Obama's father, who was nicknamed Diddley. Get it? Bo Diddley. Not exactly a rescue dog as had been planned by some. Bo is a gift from Senator Ted Kennedy who owns several of the same breed.
Apparently, another family initially owned the dog, but returned it to the Kennedys and I think that was a fortunate thing. This is a cute little dog. Meanwhile, a breeder who sold a puppy to the vice president says she's living a nightmare. Animal rights activists PETA have been threatening the breeder, Linda Browne (ph). She sold a German shepherd puppy to the family last year. She thought it would be an honor. Instead, she's become a target. She's received, if you can imagine this, death threats because the Bidens didn't get the dog from a shelter.
The fascism in this country in orthodoxies is just amazing whether left or right. Inspectors apparently repeatedly visiting her kennels. She says her reputation's been all but ruined by groups such as PETA. Those groups are angry because they say breeders take needed homes away from shelter animals. Amazing what we have to go through in that country some days to get to common sense.
Up next, critics blame the United States for the global recession. My next guest says, come on. Get real. It's not America's fault. And by the way, all you have to do is look at the facts. We'll be right back. Looking at the facts.
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DOBBS: Breaking news now. A three-judge panel in Minnesota has just declared Al Franken is in effect the winner of that Senate seat in Minnesota. The panel saying, Franken is entitled to receive the certificate of election from the secretary of state in Minnesota. And after defeating Republican Norm Coleman, the Republican incumbent, by 312 votes at last count.
Coalman has 10 days to appeal to the State Supreme Court and he is expected to do so. Again, Al Franken tonight moving closer to becoming a U.S. senator from the State of Minnesota. After a key judicial ruling in his favor tonight.
Critics around the world, some of them at least, blaming the United States for starting the global economic crisis, even President Obama has said it's our fault. But my guest tonight has a compelling argument against that view. Alan Reynolds, a senior fellow at the Cato Institution, author of "Income and Wealth" and joins us tonight from Washington, DC.
Well, let me ask you this. Alan, a lot of people would be shocked to find that you demonstrated at least chronologically that this global recession was set off not by the United States and the subprime meltdown but by another event that a lot of people have already sort of unbelievably put to the back of their minds. Namely, $145 a barrel oil.
ALAN REYNOLDS, CATO INSTITUTE: Yeah. Even $100 a barrel oil. We weren't the first economy to go down. That belongs to Canada and several European countries. We were certainly one of the milder declines in GDP last year or industrial production. What do the countries have in common? Germany had twice as big of a drop as we had. Japan, four or five times drop in production and GDP. Japan didn't have a banking crisis. Japan didn't have a housing bubble. You know, what they had in common, these are oil importing countries and when the price of oil has gone up and it's gone up -- we have had 10 spikes in oil price in the postwar period followed by a ...
DOBBS: Let me interrupt and share a graphic that demonstrates what you are talking about if we could show that energy prices versus what's been the economic, as you can tell, we invested a lot of money in drawing up this. Recessions and the price of oil. Each of those marks, the gray lines demonstrating where indeed there was a recession that followed. We can go away from that highly expensive and well crafted graphic display.
REYNOLDS: Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. They do good work.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Let's turn to this economy right now. A lot of nay saying, a lot of gnashing of teeth. But we have seen a remarkable move up in this. As a matter of fact, I'm fond of pointing out that President Obama in less than three months in office has overseen a bear market in his name and a bull market in his name.
REYNOLDS: That's right.
DOBBS: And fortunately, the first was the bear market. We are now looking at just about a 25 percent gain in the stock market. That augers well for our future does it not?
REYNOLDS: Yeah. The market turns up say four months, sometimes five, before the economy bottoms, when I say the economy bottoms I mean industrial production will stop and then start to rise. Construction, that sort of thing. That doesn't mean the unemployment rate won't continue to rise, it will. It always does. Partly because more people jump into the labor force when things pick up a little bit.
DOBBS: Let me ask you, how high do you expect unemployment to go? REYNOLDS: People are saying 10 percent. That's certainly possible. That wouldn't be a record. The postwar record is 10.8 but it's certainly possible. But again, to the extent it is due to discouraged workers getting workers back in the labor force, that is not necessarily a bad thing.
DOBBS: Do you find it interesting that so many people have been talking so negatively for the past up until two or three weeks ago, but really from August forward we heard the Bush administration, we heard the Democrats in Congress, and then upon his election, President Obama in weeks following and the Democratic leaders of this Congress really badmouthing, down -- talking down the economy and the markets. I mean, that in and of itself would have been enough to contribute to a significant decline in markets and I would think economic activity. Or is that a bad assumption on my part?
REYNOLDS: I mean, what all recessions have in common is profits go down, business is bad and when business is bad, stocks go down. And that's bad for wealth and people feel bad and blah blah blah but we work our way out of them. Recessions always end.
DOBBS: When do we work our way out of this one?
REYNOLDS: I told you on the radio September, I will say within the third quarter. It could be sooner than September. But nobody will know it until next year when the unemployment rate finally looks better.
DOBBS: All right. Well, let's hope that you are exactly right. I will take September. We're going to notch that one -- if granite can be notched, we'll notch it in granite. Thanks very much. Alan Reynolds, Cato Institute.
Up next, tonight's poll results, we'll have some of your thoughts. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
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DOBBS: Tonight's poll results - 93 percent of you say Mayor Bloomberg of New York should spend more time fixing his potholes than threatening the Second Amendment rights of Americans or interfering in elections outside of New York City. Time now for some of your thoughts and thank you for voting.
Lee in Virginia said, "Hats off to the U.S. Navy, especially those SEALS who rescued Captain Phillips."
Bret in Wisconsin. "The Navy SEALS showed the real meaning of gun control. Remember, guns don't kill pirates. U.S. Navy SEALS kill pirates. Great job. That captain was one brave man. God bless him and everyone involved in his rescue."
Amen. Send us your thoughts to loudobbs.com and please join me on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show." Go to loudobbsradio.com to get the local listings for the show. 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. Eastern on WOR 710. Thanks for being with us tonight. NO BIAS, NO BULL starts right now. In for Campbell Brown, Roland Martin.
