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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Obama and the CIA; A Mortal Threat to U.S.; Reverse Discrimination

Aired April 22, 2009 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you and good evening everybody.

The Obama administration facing charges that it's damaging the CIA and trying to muzzle one of its top intelligence officials -- this after the president's director of national intelligence said harsh interrogation methods produce significant results in a memo omitted from a public press release.

Also the controversy over Congresswoman Jane Harman and her reported efforts to free two pro-Israel lobbyists, both accused of spying, it's escalating; we'll tell what the Justice Department may do next.

And the Supreme Court hears arguments in a major racial discrimination case -- this case brought by white and Latino firefighters in the city of New Haven, Connecticut. Tonight we'll be talking with the attorneys from sides of this case and one of the firefighters.

We begin with the escalating controversy over President Obama, the CIA and harsh interrogations. The White House today again insisted that President Obama did not reverse course on whether Bush administration officials who justified top interrogation methods should be prosecuted. The Obama administration also on the defensive over a memo written by President Obama's director of national intelligence, Admiral Dennis Blair.

In that memo, Admiral Blair said that aggressive interrogation techniques now banned by the Obama administration yielded high value information. Suzanne Malveaux has our report from the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Will the Obama administration hold the Bush administration accountable for torture? That is the question that has outraged some and put others in the hot seat. Today it was Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's turn. Not surprisingly she defended President Obama's position not to prosecute those who carried out the torture but allow the Justice Department to decide whether to prosecute the lawyers who approved it.

HILLARY CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: No one will be prosecuted who acted within the four corners of the legal advice that was given. Following that advice, to perform any function that that person believed was legal. However, those who formulated the legal opinions, and gave those orders, should be reviewed.

MALVEAUX: The controversy stems from the fact that Mr. Obama and his top officials as recently as 48 hours ago implied everyone involved would be cleared from legal prosecution. In a statement released in Mexico City Thursday, Mr. Obama said "this is a time for reflection, not retribution", but now the White House is on the defensive.

On Air Force One traveling with Mr. Obama, press secretary Robert Gibbs said reports said the president was opening the door or changing his policy were just flat wrong. He said besides it's not the president's call. "If somebody knowingly broke the law, that's a determination that will ultimately be made by a legal official, not by the president."

That legal official, Attorney General Eric Holder, was asked about what he intends to do. He would only say "we are going to follow the evidence, follow the law and take that where it leads. No one is above the law."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And just last night, Lou, as you know, there were Republicans who are concerned there's going to be a witch-hunt inside the Bush administration. They leaked portion of that memo from the National Director of Intelligence Dennis Blair saying and I'm quoting here that "high value information came from those harsh interrogation methods", that they felt that at least they got some valuable information out of that.

Later they released a statement, saying in fact that they agreed with President Obama that those should be jettisoned, but certainly it does underscore and it quite frankly demonstrates the debate that was happening within this White House over this very sensitive matter, Lou.

DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you -- Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.

Congressional Republicans tonight are stepping up their verbal attacks on the Obama administration over the way in which it has dealt with the issue of CIA interrogations. One Republican lawmaker, Senator Jim Inhofe, accused the White House of helping our enemies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JIM INHOFE (R), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Every time we are getting into something like this we are telling our potential adversaries out there on what we can and what we cannot do and they are laughing at us. I think it's outrageous that they bring it up again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Some Republicans tonight say the Obama administration is behaving like the leadership of a "Banana Republic", as they put it. Those Republicans blasted the administration's decision to open the way for the prosecution of Bush administration officials. Later here in the broadcast the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hoekstra will join me to give us his assessment.

Turning to another critically important national security issue -- the future of Pakistan. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton today warned that terrorists could take over Pakistan, a country with nuclear weapons. This after reports that radical Islamist terrorists, the Taliban have now taken control of a district only 60 miles from the capital of Islamabad -- Jill Dougherty has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

H. CLINTON: The Taliban to...

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A stark warning from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, the prospect of a Taliban takeover in Pakistan, she says, poses a mortal threat...

H. CLINTON: To the security and safety of our country and the world.

DOUGHERTY: Secretary Clinton slammed the Pakistan government saying, "It's abdicating to hard-line Islamic groups by allowing them to rule tribal areas just 60 miles from the capital".

H. CLINTON: I think that we cannot underscore the seriousness of the existential threat posed to the state of Pakistan, by the continuing advances now within hours of Islamabad that are being made by a loosely confederated group, terrorists and others who are seeking the overthrow of the Pakistani state, which is, as we all know, a nuclear-armed state.

DOUGHERTY: The U.S. has poured more than $11 billion in aid into Pakistan, but now the Obama administration is threatening to condition more money on how Pakistan fights terrorism. And, in an unusual move, Clinton called on Pakistani citizens, and Pakistani Americans to speak out forcefully against seeding territory to the Taliban and al Qaeda.

H. CLINTON: I don't hear that kind of outrage or concern coming from enough people that would reverberate back within the highest echelons of the civilian and military leadership of Pakistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOUGHERTY: Now the Pakistani government seems to think that this strategy could buy them some time, maybe buy them some stability in those tribal regions but Secretary Clinton is making a point that this is really a deal with the devil and that ultimately they could be digging their own graves.

DOBBS: A deal with the devil, as you put it, Jill, or as Secretary of State Clinton puts it. But what is she seeking here? What is the Obama administration seeking in making these rather public and dramatic statements a mortal threat? DOUGHERTY: I think they want to put pressure on the Pakistani government because they feel that the Pakistani government is paying more attention to the threat from India than it is to the threat from the Taliban, in those areas where these militants are operating. So, it's a way of showing publicly, you need to get out there, you need to take some steps, because they've tried this and it isn't working and it's growing.

DOBBS: Jill, thank you very much -- Jill Dougherty.

Up next here, more on the political showdown over the president, the CIA and aggressive interrogations -- the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee joins me.

And the legal showdown over a racial discrimination case brought by white and Latino firefighters has reached the Supreme Court. We'll have complete coverage. We continue in one moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Supreme Court today heard arguments in an important racial discrimination case brought by 20 firefighters in the city of New Haven, Connecticut. Those firefighters charged the city passed them over for promotion despite having had high scores on their promotion test. Nineteen of those firefighters are white, one is Latino.

No black firefighters who took the test scored high enough to qualify for a promotion. The city then threw out the entire test and promoted no one. The court's decision could shape the way that race affects hiring and other employment practices across this nation. Ines Ferre has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dressed in uniform and posing for pictures, New Haven's 19 white and one Latino firefighters had their day at the Supreme Court.

LT. MATTHEW MARCARELLI, NEW HAVEN FIREFIGHTER: It's so important, because it lends to, if you work hard, you should be rewarded for that work.

FERRE: Both sides presented oral arguments to the justices; the question is did the city discriminate against the white and Latino firefighters when it threw out the results of its exams for promotions. The city argues that it was acting in line with the federal civil rights law known as Title Seven, under which employers must not conduct tests that would have a disparate effect on one racial group.

VICTOR BOLDEN, NEW HAVEN CORPORATION COUNSEL: This case is about Title Seven and hopefully the Supreme Court will uphold and recognize what the city of New Haven did was consistent with Title Seven.

FERRE: Justice Kennedy seen as a possible swing vote said the city, quote, "looked at the results and it classified the successful and unsuccessful applicants by race. I have trouble with this argument." But Justice Robert Souter sympathized with the city saying "it was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation susceptible to lawsuits from both sides." A lawyer for the Department of Justice sided with the city but recommended the case be sent back to a lower court for further review.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FERRE: And for his part Chief Justice Roberts asked how many times the city might do over the test before it was satisfied with the results. And Lou, he also posed the question as to what if the tables were turned around and what if it were more blacks that had actually scored high on these test scores, would the city say well then we want white firefighters in there and toss out those test scores.

DOBBS: And the answer to that, of course, is hypothetical, because there is no answer, but it is the basis for which probably this case will we decided, right?

FERRE: Yes, definitely. I mean he asked that to Neidler (ph), who is the lawyer for the government and he actually responded that there was a concern -- if there was a concern for violation of disparate impact, I mean the whole thing is, is what's the intent here and is there a concern that you would be violating Title Seven.

DOBBS: And what is the right thing to do. Thank you very much. Appreciate it -- Ines Ferre.

We will hear from the attorneys on both sides of this issue and a firefighter in the New Haven case later here. We will be joined by Victor Bolden representing the city of New Haven, the attorney for the firefighters, Karen Torre (ph), and firefighter Lieutenant Matthew Marcarelli (ph).

The Supreme Court will hear several other cases on race and civil rights this term including a lawsuit over whether the state of Arizona should spend more money on English proficiency programs in public schools. Another case will determine whether New York and other states should be allowed to investigate disparities and mortgages for minorities. And the high court will also hear a case calling for the end of federal oversight of elections in states with a history of racial discrimination.

The Supreme Court today made it easier for illegal aliens fighting deportation to remain in the United States, the high court ruling in favor of an illegal immigrant from Cameroon who did not leave the United States when his visa expired. The immigrant also applied for asylum. Federal courts are divided on what standards to apply in such cases. The appellate court hearing this case rejected the asylum claims, the high court saying the lower court didn't take sufficient time to consider the merits of the claim.

Well outrage tonight over controversial remarks by Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano. Her remarks implied that terrorists including the 9/11 hijackers entered the United States from Canada. Secretary Napolitano in a Canadian television interview tried to clarify an earlier comment that appeared to equate problems on our Mexican border with problems on our Canadian border.

She said, quote, "Canada is not Mexico. It doesn't have a drug war going on. It didn't have 6,000 homicides that were drug related last year. Nevertheless, to the extent that terrorists have come into our country or suspected or known terrorists have entered our country across a border, it's been across the Canadian border."

When asked if she was referring to the 9/11 hijackers, Secretary Napolitano replied, quote, "not just those but others as well." One of the key recommendations of the 9/11 Commission to set federal standards for driver's licenses -- that recommendation became the basis for the Real I.D. Act. Now Secretary Napolitano is seeking to repeal the law.

The secretary said today at an anti defamation league meeting that she is working with governors to quote "look at a way to repeal Real I.D.", end quote. Congressman James Sensenbrenner (ph), a sponsor of the bill said he is angered at the secretary's remarks. Real I.D. he said enhances our border security while disrupting terrorist travel -- again Secretary Napolitano working to repeal the law.

Coming up here next, some Republicans say tonight that the Obama administration is behaving like the leaders of a "Banana Republic", as they put it. I'll be joined by the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee as the fallout from the release of those CIA memos intensifies.

Also, drama as a young pilot desperately searches for a place to land. That story is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is "CNN Breaking News".

DOBBS: Breaking news tonight -- this just in to CNN -- The Associated Press reporting that General Motors will shut down most of its U.S. factories for a period of nine week this summer. The AP reporting employees have not been told of any shutdown which would reportedly include the standard two-week closure in July. GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson (ph) tonight will not confirm the report. General Motors is currently backed by more than $13 billion in government loans. GM faces a June 1st deadline to restructure or to file for bankruptcy.

Police in Fairfax, Virginia tonight investigating the apparent suicide of the acting chief financial officer of Freddie Mac, David Kellermann -- Kellermann's body was found hanging in the basement of his Fairfax home early this morning. Neighbors said Kellermann had apparently been suffering from severe distress.

Freddie Mac lost more than $50 billion last year and is now under investigation by federal prosecutors and the Securities and Exchange Commission. The federal government has given the company $45 billion and guaranteed its loans. Kellermann was working on Freddie Mac's first quarter financial report which is due at the end of next month.

The latest on the death of those 21 polo ponies in Florida; vitamin supplements may be the blame for those deaths. The Venezuelan team ponies died Sunday just before the U.S. Open Polo Championship. Today the team captain said the ponies were injected with what he called a European vitamin supplement, Biodyl (ph), which is designed to help horses recover from exhaustion. By the way, it is banned by the Federal Drug Administration and veterinarians suspect the dose was contaminated. Conclusive test results could take weeks.

Other stories that we're following the country tonight, in El Paso, Texas, U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers busted a 71- year-old man for smuggling drugs. The man was trying to smuggle 142 pounds of marijuana across the border from Mexico; marijuana hidden in all four of his tires, the seats, and the dash board and the gas tank of his truck.

In Florida two men were flying a home built aircraft when the engine suddenly failed. The 22-year-old pilot and his passenger immediately started looking for some place, any place to land. After deciding that a number of fair fields wouldn't work, the pilot smoothly set the plane down on a highway as you see here and there were no injuries. There was no damage at all to the aircraft.

And right here in our nation's capital, two members of the Washington Nationals' Baseball Team had to play in jerseys that were misspelled. Right fielder Adam Dunn (ph) and third baseman Ryan Zimmerman (ph) both stars for the team wore jerseys that were missing the letter "O" in nationals. It's been a rough April for the Nationals as they are now the worst team in the Major Leagues.

It's been a very rough year for the nation's newspaper industry. Tonight Senator John Kerry is promising to help save his hometown paper, "The Boston Globe", which is owned by "The New York Times". "The Boston Globe" is losing $1 million a week. Its parent company, "The Times" just announced a loss of almost $75 million. Senator Kerry is calling for Senate hearings to discuss the industry's future. "The Boston Globe" has repeatedly endorsed Senator Kerry for the Senate and the White House.

Up next here, what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi knew about the NSA wiretap of a fellow member of Congress and white and Latino firefighters today at the Supreme Court in a high profile racial discrimination case. One of those firefighters and attorneys from both sides of the case join me.

And the Obama administration trying to spin its way out of a controversy over harsh CIA interrogations -- the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee is Congressman Pete Hoekstra, he's our guest here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Department of Justice tonight reportedly considering dropping spying charges against two pro Israel lobbyists. Those two men, Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman, were indicted four years ago on charges of passing classified information to the government of Israel. They work for APAC (ph), the most powerful pro Israel lobbying firm in the country.

National Security Agency wiretaps reportedly showing influential Congresswoman Jane Harman agreed to seek lenient treatment for those lobbyists in return for their help in securing a top job in Congress. Congresswoman Harman strongly denies that she ever contacted the White House or the Justice Department about the case and tonight House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she knew Congresswoman Harman had been wiretapped by the NSA as early as three years ago. Speaker Pelosi said she did not inform Congresswoman Harman.

Another top Democrat facing some controversy tonight, also insisting she's done nothing wrong. Senator Dianne Feinstein accused of violating Senate ethics rules in a possible conflict of interest case. In January the senator introduced a bill to give $25 billion in taxpayer money to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation to stop home foreclosures.

Senator Feinstein proposed that legislation just after the FDIC gave her husband's real estate firm a lucrative contract to sell foreclosed properties. She denies any suggestion that she was seeking to reward the FDIC for her husband's contract.

Well, joining me now to discuss the controversy over these CIA interrogations, the Obama administration's response is Congressman Pete Hoekstra. He is the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee and Congressman, let me start by saying the National Director of Intelligence Admiral Dennis Blair, saying that much -- that there were positive results in the intelligence that was gained through these techniques, creates some problem for the Obama administration here, does it not?

REP. PETE HOEKSTRA (R-MI), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Well, I think what the director said is consistent with what Director George Tenet said, Director Hayden said is that these interrogation methods provided information that helped keep America safe. It's pretty consistent. It's been a consistent message for the last seven years.

DOBBS: It's consistent. It's also consistent with what CIA Director Leon Panetta (ph), what Admiral Blair himself apparently told the administration last week that there should be no -- there shouldn't be any prosecution on this basis and that it would not be wise to have these memoranda come to light.

HOEKSTRA: You know you're right. That's exactly what they said because I think they recognize that if they did this, they would send a chilling effect throughout the intelligence community. And I think that's exactly what's happened in the CIA over the last five days. They are now becoming more cautious, risk averse and they are going to lawyer up.

DOBBS: And you have long-standing in the intelligence community, you have watched over the nation's intelligence operations. Is this a blow, potentially, against the very agents and operatives who we expect to defend this nation? HOEKSTRA: Oh, I think so. I mean take a look at what's happened in the last 90 days. The first day that the president comes into office he says that he's going to release or transfer 250 of perhaps the most dangerous terrorists in the world. He's going to shut Gitmo down and he has no place to put them.

And now 90 days later he opens up the possibility that the people that have been keeping America safe for the last seven or eight years, jeopardizing their lives, risking their lives on the battlefield that these people may be prosecuted by their own government. I mean this is -- this is -- this is some reckless behavior on the part of this administration.

DOBBS: The politics of this -- of this controversy, this conflict between the Republicans and Congress, and Democrats and the White House, and the leadership in Congress, this is a national security issue. One of the few places where we expect to see bipartisanship and some retreat from party interest, we're seeing, it seems, from both the left and the right, an aggressive press of partisanship where we, most of us, would expect to see the national interest be supreme.

HOEKSTRA: I think that's exactly right. And I think as more information comes out, we found this with the terrorist surveillance program that the Bush administration really tried to do this on a bipartisan basis. The terrorist surveillance program, Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill were briefed continually over seven years on the terrorist surveillance program.

I think you're going to see the same thing here on the interrogation process that Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill knew exactly what was going on. They bought into it and they signed off on it. And only now that we have a new administration are people coming out who were aware of these programs saying wait a minute, these were terrible programs. In reality, two, three years ago, they signed off on it, they voted for legislation that funded these programs, and now all of a sudden these are terrible practices.

DOBBS: And all of this is going to emerge -- the truth will ultimately emerge here. What possible motivation can there be within the administration to do that, if indeed, as you describe it, those are the facts?

HOEKSTRA: Well, I think those facts will come out. I don't know what the motivation is. I believe that the president really didn't think through all the ramifications of these decisions. I know that my staff met with people from the DNI's office, Director of National Intelligence last week, laid out many of these questions, never got a response. Still haven't gotten a response and president just moved forward without, I think thinking through some of these issues.

DOBBS: Let me quickly turn to Pakistan, a nuclear state. In which the Taliban, radical Islamist terrorists reportedly 60 miles from the nation's capital. Have you been briefed by the situation? Secretary of state Clinton of referring to it as a mortal threat to Pakistan. HOEKSTRA: We've been briefed continually on Pakistan. We've known Pakistan in certain characterizations is close to being a failed state. They've never gone after Taliban, after radical jihadists in a way to protect that nation's state. They are a failed state and they need to step up and they need to address this challenge.

DOBBS: We appreciate you being with us, congressman as always and look forward to your return.

HOEKSTRA: Great, thank you.

DOBBS: Congressman Hoekstra, thank you very much.

Coming up next, we'll have much more on the political fallout from the controversy over those CIA interrogations. I'll be talking with three of the country's best political analysts.

And an important racial discrimination case has reached Supreme Court. We'll talk to the attorneys and one of the firefighters in the case that was argued before the high court today.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We reported earlier on the Supreme Court arguments today in the New Haven firefighter's racial discrimination lawsuit. Joining me now, New Haven Corporation counsel Victor Bolden in the Supreme Court to hear those arguments, Victor, could to see you again.

VICTOR BOLDEN, NEW HAVEN CORPORATION COUNSEL: Good to be back.

DOBBS: Give us your assessment how the city of New Haven did in the oral arguments before the high court.

BOLDEN: Well, I'm not one to prognosticate or speculate about what went on in court based on questions but I think the important thing is this case is about title 7 of the civil rights act of 1964 and a statue that's been enacted and been in place over 40-some odd years. The issue here in terms of disparate impact is uphold for 30 some odd year. The question is how they deal with fundamental questions on title 7.

DOBBS: It's interesting, how do you respond to the question asked by the chief justice which is, would the city of New Haven behave precisely the same way had the firefighters who had passed the test, instead of being white and Latino been all black. How do you answer that?

BOLDEN: I think the answer is yes. That's how we understand our obligations. One of the things that is under emphasized here is that title 7 works in a way, a statute that really comprehensively addresses the question of employment discrimination, such that what they're trying to do is make sure there aren't barriers to employment, based on race, religion, gender, ethnicity. The opportunity is working for all. DOBBS: If that is the case, what other argument can there be, but to administer objectively a test and let men and women take that test. Irrespective of race and results declared of themselves.

BOLDEN: Under title 7, the issue is, if you have a test that looks like it's creating an exclusionary practice, based on race, gender religion or ethnicity. There's an obligation to make sure that's the right test. Here we had serious questions whether that test was the right test.

DOBBS: Serious questions.

BOLDEN: Yes.

DOBBS: Serious political questions were introduced.

BOLDEN: No. I know you like this notion of political angle. But the reality is --

DOBBS: Actually, I don't like it. Matter of fact -- I very much dislike it.

BOLDEN: I mean in terms of liking it, that's a pet peeve in terms of following up. The reality, if you look at the process the city went through, five days of hearings, they heard issue and questions raised in the test. The briefing that was before the U.S. Supreme Court, the Supreme Court had today. You had briefs from testing saying there's a reasonable likelihood this test can be defended. There's a lot there that suggested the city was going to have a very difficult time defending against this particular exam. The question, as I said, under title 7, the issue is, are there barriers locking people out based on race, gender and ethnicity and religion. We have an opportunity to make sure everyone has an opportunity to participant and this exam didn't reach the standard.

DOBBS: In your opinion and in the opinion of the court, do we have, any sense that the man who is often the swing vote. That is Justice Kennedy, when he said that this appears to be a matter of race, after the city had scored the 15 and 14 firefighter whose had passed and those who had not passed, and decided then to assign race to the results. That he said it was about race, and he was uncomfortable with that. Does that give you any discomfort at all?

BOLDEN: This case is about law. And about this law in particular. Title 7 civil rights act of 1964. It is a law that's opened up doors and opportunities for people of every race, every gender of this city and religion. I think this is not something that gives everyone discomfort but should give them a lot of comfort. In this case, let me say in this case --

DOBBS: You've turned this to a question that I didn't ask. My question that I did ask, if I may repeat it, is Justice Kennedy, a likely swing vote, suggesting he's very uncomfortable with this being a race -- race being assigned to those results. Does that give you discomfort? BOLDEN: I think that what I'm saying, here and I am responding to you, what gives me comfort is that there is an understanding what title 7 is about. It's a law that's worked for 45 years. And it's a law that I think the Supreme Court has upheld and particularly upheld the disparate impact here. But I also think what's very, very important. You have a law which worked and that employers understand. The question is if you have a --

DOBBS: Let's assume everybody in the country votes and Victor Bolden says you're right but I want to return to the question of Justice Kennedy, his discomfort with the issue in this case. He is as familiar with title 7, as are you. He obviously was expressing discomfort with race being assigned to the results this case. Does this give you any discomfort at all? Then I promise, if you don't want to answer, say so and we'll move on.

BOLDEN: I'm answering the best way we can. I'm not going to speculate what Justice Kennedy is thinking.

DOBBS: I'm not asking you to.

BOLDEN: I understand. I'm telling you title 7 is a law that's worked.

DOBBS: OK. And I appreciate you're reiterating that. Thank you very much Victor Bolden representing city of New Haven.

Karen Torre is one of the attorneys representing the firefighters also at the Supreme Court hearing those arguments today and New Haven firefighter, Lieutenant Matthew Macarelli was there as well along with a lot of his colleagues. Lieutenant Macarelli, by the way, we should point out, received the very highest score on this promotion test. Congratulations to both of you for being here and thanks for being here.

And let me ask you the same question I asked Victor Bolden, Justice Kennedy's statement about race, he's uncomfortable with it being assigned to the results, is that in any -- does that give you any comfort?

KAREN TORRE, FIREFIGHTERS' ATTORNEY: You can't really take any comfort, Lou, or have any consternation about what any justice says. Trying to have any argument in appellate court is a useless exercise, any time you watch a oral argument you get nervous when one justice asks certain questions, what does that mean, why is he thinking that, why is she saying that? I try not to try to read too much into oral arguments.

DOBBS: Do you know Victor Bolden? You sound a lot like him.

TORRE: He's a good guy. Thanks for the compliment.

DOBBS: Let me turn to another issue, and that is the test itself.

TORRE: Right. DOBBS: The city threw the test out. What many people don't realize, it was almost six years ago that that test was administered. Firefighters took it in the full faith that they would be treated based on the results, either promoted to lieutenant or captain, or denied promotion based on what they did to prepare the test and results they received. How in the world has this taken so long to be adjudicated?

TORRE: Well, you know, you can't really blame anybody for that. Litigation, in the federal courts, can be a lengthy process, and the fact is that our legal system is complicated. And lawyers make it worse. And the rules allow for all kinds of motions and discovery disputes. The length of the case doesn't really bother me, honestly, it doesn't. The outcome bothers me more than the length of time the outcome took to come about.

DOBBS: It's one of the reasons you'll forgive me to get anxious to get some sense of tea leaves you and Victor have denied me. Let me say, lieutenant, I have to admire you and other 19 firefighters. I thought about this. And I don't know how I would react to having taken a test, being sure that, based upon that test, that we had a meritocracy and there would be a result. It feels -- how do you feel?

MARCARELLI: Well, Lou, I will say there was a lot of talk about good faith and we took a test in good faith, after a long study period, that we all were given the same amount of time to study, to prepare for he's examinations, both the written portion and the oral scenario-based assessment. And our -- we had good faith in the system, that when the list was finally certified, that we would have ultimately been promoted. And not denied those promotions based on our race.

DOBBS: You're a lieutenant. You're responsible for the lives of many of your fellow firefighters as well as your own and public safety. You have -- I'm sure a heightened sensitivity to the racial issues that are important in the workplace. Title 7, the equity that we seek in our society, that seems a laudable goal to you, does it not, as a manager of men and women who put their lives on the line for us civilians?

MARCARELLI: Well, I interpret it as all people should be treated equally. And that did not seem to be what was the case here. We were denied promotions, based upon our race.

DOBBS: And how -- how do your fellow firefighters feel? I'm talking about fellow firefighters irrespective of race. New Haven is a diverse community. What is the morale within the fire department?

MARCARELLI: It has definitely had a negative impact on morale with the fire department. Both the 20 involved with the case and firefighters that are not involved with the case as well as firefighters throughout the country. This is happening all over the country, where firefighters are being denied promotion, advancement, based upon their race, regardless of the type of test that was given. In fact, just yesterday firefighters from Bridgeport were denied promotions based on their race. DOBBS: So where are we headed here? This test is before the stroke. I'm not talking about the one that was taken six years ago, but this case, this trial, this lawsuit, it will be determinate on a lot of fire houses, workplaces throughout the country. What are your thoughts?

TORRE: I'll tell you what our hopes are. Having been involved in this case since 2003, I was surprised, in doing the research, to see just how undemocratic this is, what happened to these 20 men is not unusual. It's been happening to police officers, teachers, correction guards, firefighters, in almost every major city it's been going on for years. Disparate litigation has become a plague on the administration of government. It is absurd to suggest that title 7 was ever meant to allow governments to effectively be paralyzed and cities unable to fill positions for five years, because you're looking at the race of the successful people. This man sitting next to me is probably the most stellar candidate New Haven voters can have. He scores number one on every exam. He got degrees, credible credential and experience. Public needs them and should have them. That's it.

DOBBS: Karen Torre, thank you very much.

And Lieutenant Marcarelli, thank you very much for being with us.

MARCARELLI: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, "NO BIAS, NO BULL." Roland Martin in for Campbell Brown. Roland, tell us about it.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Lou tonight breaking news on General Motors closing most of its U.S. factories this summer. Ali Velshi is here with up to the minute details.

Also ahead, the apparent suicide of top executive of mortgage financial giant Freddie Mac a target of a federal probe. We'll dig deeper into his role.

Plus, Pakistan is our ally in the war on terror and now there are fears that it could fall into terrorist hands. We'll look into whether that puts the U.S. in danger.

Also the latest details on the Craigslist killing case at the top of the hour.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

Still ahead here, what the white house is saying about top CIA interrogations under the Bush administration and an influential congresswoman caught on tap, wire tapped by the national security agency and speaker Nancy Pelosi knew about it. Three of the best political minds join me next.

We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Joining me now, three of my favorite political analysts; chief political columnist for Politico.com, Roger Simon. Roger, good to see you. Republican strategist, Leslie Sanchez, strategy in her own right. Good to have you with us and Robert Zimmerman, democratic strategist, CNN contributor, Robert, good to see you.

Is it fair to say that the Obama administration is in some consternation tonight over the Director of National Intelligence, Admiral Dennis Blair, basically saying that those tough interrogation techniques were torture, if you prefer, on the other side of it, worked?

ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: No, I don't believe there is. I don't think there's a mixed message at all. Admiral Blair also pointed out that the torture techniques that were employed were not worth it in terms of what it cost the United States in the long range. Furthermore, he also pointed out, I think to his credit that in fact we didn't get information from these attempts -- from these tortuous activities that helped us in terms of preventing an attack. It just focused strictly on the structure of al Qaeda.

LESLIE SANCHEZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think that's confusing in its sense with all due respect to you, Robert, I think we're definitely mixed messages. There's a very honest question to be answered here. There are techniques that can be used. You can have debate what those techniques are. Inflicting that type of test, for example, I don't want to call it test, is not necessarily torture. That's what the debate needs to happen. The fact that you have four previous CIA directors as well as Blair come forward and say, we don't think you should be talking about this yet, disclosing that, we're now fundamentally having a debate what works and what doesn't.

ROGER SIMON, CHIEF POLITICAL COLUMNIST, POLITICO: I think the Obama administration, president is clear on its view on torture, torture is illegal. We're not going to do it. If the president has shown anything in the last 92, 93 days is relentless will to move forward, not look backward but just keep going. Justice is all about looking backward. It's about reviewing what's been done, saying yes, laws were broken, people should be prosecuted or at least investigated. The president didn't want to do that. His party wants to do that and they're going to get their way.

ZIMMERMAN: Roger, the law requires it be done. Under the freedom of information law these memos had to be made public. This is a dramatic difference from the past administration where the rule of law is administered selectively or in the case of Valerie Plain, done for retribution.

SIMON: But we didn't have to investigate the lawyers. We don't have to investigate the lawyers who wrote the memos.

ZIMMERMAN: But accountability is the cornerstone of our system of justice.

This is not an issue maybe there's a good way to torture. Torture is illegal, it's wrong. United States doesn't do it period. SIMON: I'm all for it.

ZIMMERMAN: Leslie this is not an issue of maybe there's a good way of torturing or not. Torture is illegal. It's wrong. The United States doesn't do it.

SANCHEZ: You want to prosecute the attorneys writing the memos to give counsel to the attorney general or president. It seems overreaching.

ZIMMERMAN: Prosecution is not the only option. There's a matter of disbarment. There's a matter of judicial reprimands. In the case of one of the counsel, impeachment should be an option.

SANCHEZ: I think we heard earlier that's the chilling effect that it's going to cause. You don't want to think you're in a position that you'll be prosecuted by your own government for your own opinion and giving counsel on those things.

DOBBS: Obviously the energy and interest exists within the left wing of the Democratic Party in congress, and across the country. In some portions, I couldn't judge how much. An appetite for what is the very vengeance that President Obama said he did not want to indulge in vindictiveness. It may be justice. I won't argue which is the correct nomenclature. Is it something that -- is there a benefit to the country, in going after the -- those who constructed memos, that allowed torture, or rough interrogation techniques, whichever you prefer to take place? Is that a wise -- is it a wise course to follow here? Is it a wise use of energy?

SIMON: I think the president thinks it's not a wise course and he'd rather get it behind him. He basically said in the first statements that we're not interested in prosecuting the people who wrote the memos, he quickly changed his mind on that and basically said we'll leave this to our chief law enforcement officer, the attorney general, Eric Holder, and she what he says. Congress is not going to settle for that.

DOBBS: Folks, if I may, we'll take a quick break, we'll be back with the panel as they collect their thoughts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Speaker Pelosi said she knew Congresswoman Jane Harmon was being wire tapped by the NSA accused of doing a quid pro quo deal for the chairmanship of the House Intelligence Committee to get two pro-Israeli lobbyists off the hook. What do you think?

ZIMMERMAN: I don't buy it for a moment. First of all Speaker Pelosi is not allowed, in fact she's blocked from law from disclosing if she knows a member of congress is facing a wire tap. The former head of FBI counter intelligence said that in fact Congressman Harmon never approached him regarding the two Israeli lobbyists and in fact the "L.A. Times" has an article pointing out that perhaps this is really about a weak case. SANCHEZ: I think there's still a strong possibility we didn't know -- that we're not -- they're not being fully honest in their interpretation what they knew. I'm trying to very delicately say, diplomatically say we don't know yet.

DOBBS: What do we know? Do we know enough?

SIMON: I'm amazed anyone would think Congressman Harmon had enough clout with the Bush administration to get two espionage agents off the hook. What was allegedly she really offering them? What could she deliver on? We know that she didn't become the chief of this democratic panel. We know Speaker Pelosi didn't get any reduction in money. We know that a variety of appellate decisions have come against the government in this case, which leads one to wonder whether the Justice Department will really go forward with this thing.

DOBBS: And of course those questions will follow then on two lobbyists for APEC as to why there was not a prosecution. The questions are endless in this town, I've noticed; the answers seldom quick.

Thank you very much. Robert Zimmerman, appreciate it, Leslie Sanchez, thank you, Roger Simon, thank you.

And a reminder to join me on the radio Monday through Friday for THE LOU DOBBS SHOW, 2 to 4 p.m. each afternoon on WR710 radio in New York and 1580 at the big talker here in Washington, D.C..

Thank you for being with us tonight. Good night from Washington.

"NO BIAS NO BULL" starts right now. In for Campbell Brown, Roland Martin.

MARTIN: All right, Lou. Thanks a lot.

Lots of news to get to tonight and we have a lot of smart folks here to talk about the news but first the breaking news on reports General Motors is closing plants around the country. Seriously scary stuff. Ali Velshi, our chief business correspondent, he's here to walk us through it.